Ep 160: Reigniting Desire and Pleasure in Midlife with Brooke Bralove

Want your desire back without pretending you’re who you were at 22? We sit down with therapist and sex therapist Brooke Bray Love to unpack how midlife women can rekindle pleasure by changing the script—less waiting to feel “spontaneous,” more creating conditions where desire can actually show up. Brooke brings two decades of clinical experience and a candid voice to topics most people still whisper about, from scheduling sex to why clitoral stimulation isn’t optional for most women.

We explore the big shift from spontaneous to responsive desire and why planning “sexy time” is a sign of care, not failure. Brooke breaks down practical tools—lube for hormonal changes, vibrators as legitimate aids, erotica for mental priming—and reframes “owning your orgasm” as the fastest route to confidence and clear communication. If penetration-only sex leaves you cold, you’re not broken; the data says expand your menu. We also talk about how to build a transition ritual that guides your nervous system from stress to sensual, using breathwork, bilateral stimulation, and mindful touch to create safety and arousal.

The conversation goes deeper into fantasies, polarity, and parts work: how strong, capable women can crave softness or submission without betraying themselves, and why fantasy is a laboratory for balance, not a contract to act. We offer a simple activity consensus tool to find overlap in desires, so you can try one aligned novelty at a time. And because culture starts at home, we share how to talk to kids about accurate body terms, consent as an ongoing process, masturbation without shame, and ethical context for porn—moving from fear to education.

If you’re ready to trade scripts that center someone else’s pleasure for a life that centers your own, this is your roadmap. Listen, pick one small shift, and watch what changes. If this resonates, subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review telling us the one myth you’re dropping today.

This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast

If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.

If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6

Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com

Transcript

Setting The Stage With Brooke

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Hello, listener, welcome back. I'm your host, Dr. Beth Tramell, and this is Things You Learn in Therapy. I am glad you're here. I am glad we get another day, uh, another moment of talking about things that matter. And today is going to be another one of those things. And some of you may be like, wow, this is a different topic than what I thought would matter. And yes, it might be. Because there are some things in the world that happen to a giant group of people that we just don't talk about. And so I am grateful for my guest, Brooke Bray Love, to come back and talk about one of those things. And so, Brooke, welcome back. I'm glad you're here. I know that I shared with Brooke that before uh I started this meeting, I remember this feeling that I have had in the last two episodes when Brooke has come on. And this feeling of like, yes, I am excited about this conversation because this is gonna be a keeping it real conversation. There is always this sense in the conversation with Brooke that it's hey, we're gonna be direct. We're not gonna pretend, we're not gonna kind of skirt around things that we're worried people might, ooh, well, I don't know if I say this. What are people? This is something that happens to so many people. And we just gotta lay it out there. So, Brooke, thanks for being here. I'm so happy to be back, Beth. Tell folks a little bit about you and then tell us something fun about you that you got going on, or just something fun that maybe we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

My name is Brooke Bray Love. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and psychotherapist. I've been in private practice for 22 years in Bethesda, Maryland, which is just right outside DC. And I focus on depression, anxiety. I also do couples work, and I'm a sex therapist, an asex certified

Why “Reigniting” Matters

SPEAKER_00 2:20

sex therapist. And then my passion at the moment is accelerated resolution therapy, which is also called ART, which is a brief treatment using rapid eye movement to change the way the brain stores distressing images, sensations, memories, trauma. And uh, I love what I do.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Um, that was the first episode was talking about um accelerated resolution therapy. And um, it is a very popular episode. People are very interested in that. And um, again, it was just such a great episode, so it doesn't surprise me. Okay, so those were a lot of fun things about you. Was there anything else you wanted to have that was fun about you?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Well, fun slash scary as hell. I'll be an empty nester in the fall in just a few months. So I'm that's that's just you know, it's a big old question mark, which is exciting and scary, and uh, I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Yeah. Oh, I love. Well, uh, first of all, I love the your kind of approach for it where you're like, it's exciting and scary, and I'm not ready for it, but I'm here for it. Exactly. Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

You're never if we waited till we were ready, we would not leave our homes ever.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Ever, ever. You know, it's it's interesting. I say this, you know, I think you probably hear this. I know people talk about it, that it's like, I don't know if we're ready to get married. I don't know if we're ready to have a baby, I don't know if we're ready to and to exactly what you're saying. It's if you wait till you feel ready, it's never going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yeah. And it's funny, I've I've I've actually told this story twice in the last week. I don't uh in different contexts, but I was thinking about that idea of, are you ready? And when I was thinking about when I was married and thinking about having children, when I would think about it, I would want to throw up. And so I my body was saying, no, not now, right? Yeah. And the only reason I chose to have kids when I did was there was just one day that when I thought about it, I didn't want to throw up anymore. And that was ready enough. And it was right, it was the right time. Um, so you know, you got to listen to your body. And and what we're gonna talk about today is is a lot about truly being present and attuned to your body.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

I love the idea of ready enough, kind of defining what that would look like. I I certainly am not saying like, hey, yeah, jump in and get married or jump in and have a baby today, but I do think this attunement is an important part of decision making, even, I mean, obviously those are big decisions,

Owning Your Orgasm And Desire

SPEAKER_01 4:50

but I think in smaller decisions too, this attunement really matters. And I have a hunch that that's gonna come into play as we kind of talk about what we're gonna talk about today. Absolutely. Okay, so before we started recording, I was sharing with you that I loved your proposal in terms of topic for today. And I am kind of a word smither. I I love words, I love kind of really tailoring and finding the right word to talk about what my experience is. And so your recommendation for our conversation today was re-igniting desire and pleasure for women in middle-age. And I mentioned how much I really appreciated the use of the word re-igniting. And so I'm curious if you, I mean, I have my ideas about why you chose that word, but can you just share with listeners why did you pick the word reigniting?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Well, first of all, the re obviously means that we assume someone has had been, you know, lit up uh before. And so um I am mostly banking on at some point you felt fire in your belly, fire in your genitals, yeah, fire in your, you know, tummy with all the you know endorphins and your brain was ignited, right? Brain is the most important sex organ, all of that. And so I I do think it's about returning, but returning in a very different way.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

So of course there are people who have never, you know, there's been no igniting. And so it would be, you know, starting for the first time. But for a lot of us, right, there have been times, you know, when we're with a partner for a long period of time, you know, you can remember fondly. Um, most relationships start with that fire, not all. And we lose it over time. And so it's about lighting yourself up rather than waiting to be lit up by another person. And so a lot of what I'm gonna talk about today is how to sort of take things into your own hands, become responsible for your own pleasure. I mean, something no one wants to hear, but I think is really important and radical is you are responsible for your own orgasm.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Period. Okay. I mean, we're gonna have to unpack that right away.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah. So the reason I say that is because we think it's our partner's job to turn us on, to ignite us. And we might be waiting around for a long time if we're 30 years into a marriage and you've just had a fight about the mortgage and you're resentful because I I will I will have a heteronormative um language mostly today, but I want to be very clear. Uh, you know, reigniting anything has nothing to do with gender, sexual orientation, identity, anything. But I do predominantly work with uh cis heterowomen.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Um, and so when you've been in these long-term relationships, you're, you know, expecting that your partner should have figured it out by now. And so they're not doing it for you. Are you doing it for you? Are you in any sensual place? Do you find yourself sexy? Can you turn yourself on? So I'll often encourage women who have, you know, are feel basically. I mean, what we're talking about is loss of libido, right? Middle age, lots of changes, been with a partner a long period of time, potentially, and everything is stale. It's boring, you know, and guess what? It is boring. Having sex with the same person over and over again

Spontaneous Vs Responsive Desire

SPEAKER_00 8:55

without bringing in newness, um, uh, without talking about what you want is just going to go stale. There's nothing abnormal about that. And so people are always like, what's wrong with me? You know, and sometimes there's nothing wrong, but you still are responsible for figuring it out for yourself. So if I say I'm responsible for my own orgasm, that can look like a lot of different things. But again, what I start with is I've got to feel sexy and sensual alone with myself. Because if I don't have, if I'm not cultivating that energy, I can't wait for someone to like drop it in me and be like, you know, here you go. I'm turning you on and it all to work. So I think it can be, you know, a lot of times we're talking about this idea of spontaneous versus responsive desire. Okay. And that's critical. So everyone always says, I want spontaneous sex. I want spontaneous sex. Spontaneous sex is nothing happens and you get horny. Nothing. You're just sitting there and you get horny. A lot of 18-year-old boys know all about that. But a lot of 18-year-old girls know all about it too, right? Responsive is there is a stimulus that causes horniness. So that could be watching a sexy show. It could be um, you know, seeing your partner um, you know, chopping wood. I don't know. I don't know what gets people going. Um, and and that, and then the desire comes from a stimulus. Yep. But everybody bitches and complains that they're not spontaneous anymore. Okay, I get it. You're not ripping off your partner's clothes, et cetera. Yep, that changes. But actually, all desire is responsive. And all desire, because you still, you know, you see someone and they, you know, you feel hot or whatever. And you need to understand that even when you thought it was spontaneous, it wasn't. What do I mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Remember in college when you'd wear your sexy underwear when you thought maybe you were gonna, when you're going out on a date, or when you kind of thought maybe you're gonna hook up with someone, you wore your sexy underwear. What else did you do to prepare? You shaved your legs. So, how is that super spontaneous sex when you're already planning for it? So we have to decide that spontaneous sex is not the only good kind of sex. And actually, research shows that happily married people schedule sex, they plan for sex, and yes, they want uh an occasional spontaneous moment, but mostly it's because they put it on their friggin' to-do list. Put sex on your to-do list and don't bitch and complain about it. Just do it because what do we do? What do we do? What do we schedule? We schedule personal training, we schedule phone calls, we schedule lunches, and why? Because it's important. So if you want sex to be important, you need to schedule it. And I get it, it doesn't sound sexy. And it's not, by the way, a guarantee that you're gonna have, you know, penis in vagina intercourse. So I sort of look at it as like you're scheduling sexy time, like sexy time with yourself. You can schedule your own masturbation, big fan of that. Because you're responsible for your own orgasm. Guess what you gotta figure out? How do I make myself orgasm? If you don't have that, how are you ever gonna teach someone else to help you with that? But they're there to help, they're not there to do it for you. You gotta do the work.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

There is so much that you just said that I'm like, oh my gosh, I think I'm gonna tell people, like, okay, this is your moment to pause and go back, rewind to the beginning of the episode and listen to it again. Because there were so many things. I wrote down so many things that I was like, yeah, these are all just like so many truth bombs that people are like, yeah, but okay, but yeah, but well, I mean, yeah, but I mean, that's the kind of like bitching and moaning that I think I um I hear folks

Scheduling Sex And Sexy Time

SPEAKER_01 13:20

also, where it's like and and and that I just appreciate the directness of you because I think it's almost like you're just calling people out to say, like, listen, you have these expectations, but actually you don't even want those expectations. You just think that's what it's supposed to be. You know, I think about the like the desire for spontaneous sex for so many folks who don't like surprises or they don't like to be, you know, interrupted with things for their day. And so I'm like, how actually is spontaneous sex supposed to work for you? And you think that's what you want because you watch these shows on Netflix where people are, it looks like spontaneous sex, but like, friend, you have to remind your brain that they're acting. Like that image isn't real, that's not what real life people actually go through.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

No, and and I was on uh an episode of Kelly Kasperson's You Are Not Broken, and I the soundbite was Hollywood ruined us.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Hollywood, uh I'm so angry at Hollywood. You complete me, Jerry Maguire. What? Yeah, uh no thanks. I'm gonna show up as whole and full as I can. And if you wanna be attached to me and my wholeness and bring your wholeness, great. But you completely, you complete me, biggest crock of shit ever. Even though, by the way, love the movie, love that moment at the time, not gonna lie. But like as a therapist, I've been like, oh no, you know. Um, but yes, so you see spontaneous hot sex with people who have been married forever or people are in their 60s and 70s. No one is saying that's not possible, but it's not regular, it's not their day-to-day, and it's not, you know, quote unquote super normal. Um, it's amazing, but you're not you you've got to build to those types of things. And what that means is you have to admit that something is stale. You have to admit that the way we've been doing it over and over again and expecting a different result isn't really working.

unknown 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

And the most important skill, of course, is what? Communication. Yeah. And I'm amazed. It actually I actually feel very sad when I have, you know, a woman in my office or a couple in my office, and I say, you know, what's your conversation around sex? And some women in their 50s will say to me, they have never once told their partner what they like. And I'll say, okay, so maybe you haven't been like, this is my biggest fantasy, but you know, I'm sure you've said, hey, a little bit harder, a little bit faster, a little bit to the right, slow down. And they just shake their heads no. And that makes me so sad. And of course, we are conditioned that way, right? A lot of this is a patriarchy. Let's just name that too, right? We are conditioned not to focus on our pleasure. When is sex over? What are women taught? When is sex over?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah, well, when um the well, in this kind of paranormal. When he has orgasmed, I think that's that's the kind of like predominant message.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Exactly. When a man uh comes through penis in vagina sex, that's pretty rigid. I don't know about you, but I'm more creative than that. So I got a lot of other ways that he could come, I could come. Maybe nobody comes, and you just decide that that's enough sex for you. So it's all been centered, pleasure has been solely centered around men. And midlife is about saying, uh-uh, I'm sick of taking care of everyone else, the kids, the schedules, the mental load, the birthday gifts, you know, the husband, whatever. And I'm gonna focus on getting pleasure myself. And so, one just little tool. I'm a big fan of all sex devices, sex toys. Big, big fan. Um, anything, it's a tool, right? And so I also never quite understand why men are threatened by bringing a vibrator into your, you know, intimate time with your partner, because

Communication And Unlearning Patriarchy

SPEAKER_00 17:40

it's a tool. You use lube, right? Especially in middle age. What happens? You know, vaginas and vulvas dry up a bit, okay? And so we need the lubrication. So you're fine to do that, but God forbid the woman decides that she also wants some clitoral stimulation. Only 13% of women can orgasm through penetration alone. That means a hella lot of women are only going to be able to orgasm through clitoral stimulation, which doesn't really happen easily with penetration alone. Right. And so again, no shame, just this is what I want. This is how I feel the you know, most pleasure, or let me come first. Because if we've decided that sex is over when a man comes, then shouldn't she come first? I think so. And I think she has every right to ask for it and kind of demand it for herself because that's sexy. That's sexy. When a woman feels entitled to pleasure, she feels sexy. And so I was in a long-term marriage. I got divorced when I was 39. And the reason I became a sex therapist is I kind of reinvented, reignited something that I didn't really think was there anymore. And so I am living proof, and now I'm out of another eight-year long-term relationship, and I'm just reigniting again and rediscovering. And so I'm 51, you can do it at 39, you can do it at 51, you can, it's never too late. Literally, never too late. If you have, if sex matters to you, and again, sex loose, loose term here, and we have to broaden our understanding of what sex actually is. It's crazy to me, but Bill Clinton was actually right in questioning what sex is, because sex really is a lot of things, and it can mean whatever you want it to mean.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Okay, so I think there's gonna be a listener or two or the 300 that are like, Brooke, this is radical. Like I I kind of like in my bones, kind of I I definitely believe you. I resonate with you, right? I'm thinking about the listener who's like, yes, and it's equal parts because it's so radical, it feels so scary. And so, how do you kind of help folks just take like small steps toward that freedom? I mean, that's what I hear you kind of talking about, is like this freedom to not just do things the way that you've always done them, do things the way you think they're supposed to be done. You know, early on you said some something like the brain is the most important sex organ organ or something. You said some quote like that. So I I think about that as one of the first steps of, okay, I have to have awareness that I want to do something else. And then what are some of the things that you help women who are like, wow, that's really radical. I'm here for it, I want to do it, but it's scary. It is scary.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

What is the most vulnerable thing you can do? Orgasm.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

That's why you have to start with yourself because it's easier for you to orgasm for yourself with yourself than it is in front of someone else or you know, in connection with someone else. So sex is vulnerable, it requires vulnerability, it requires some risk. Good sex usually has some risk. I don't mean in any way, I want to be clear, I'm not talking about like not safe sex, like anything. I'm not talking about you know doing it in public. I don't mean that, but it means uh showing up with your full self, with uh it's it might get messy. I make I might make funny sounds. And so it's a lot about the vulnerability. So, how do you practice that? Well, you learn to be vulnerable with yourself, but a lot of what I think matters here is that you have to decide that pleasure is your birthright. I tell people I I do not believe, I don't, you know, I'm not religious when I say this, but your sexuality is God given and it is your right. So I think

Toys, Lube, And Clitoral Truths

SPEAKER_00 22:10

that's what where I like that kind of entitlement, you know. Um, but it is hard, it is scary. So one of the saddest things that I find is when I mention the word pleasure to women, just the word pleasure, and I'll say, Well, you know, what brings you pleasure? They can't name one thing. So, where do we start? We start with the word pleasure and what it means to you and what you associate. And they can't name anything. Yeah. So I then I'll say, what lights you up from the inside out? There's that, you know, igniting piece, right? What lights you up? And when you some people have that, some people don't. Like what lights me up is being on podcasts. I love it. I feel totally alive. I'm vulnerable, I'm real. It might get messy. I'm gonna screw it up and I'm gonna do it again and feel alive. Dancing makes me light up from the inside out. But what I tell people who have no idea what the word pleasure means is I want you to go outside and I want you to look, you know, close your eyes and let the sun rain down on you. Is that pleasurable? I want you to um, you know, stroke the side of your cheek. Is that pleasurable? And so we start with non-threatening pleasure, identifying that. We also want to really use mindfulness. The only way to have pleasure is to be embodied, it's to be inside your own body. And this is where trauma comes into play. A lot of women who've had trauma, men who've had trauma, can't dissociate during sex, especially if it's sexual trauma. And so we have to teach them that their body is a safe place to return to. Um, and that's really hard. And that's about nervous system, you know, regulation. You cannot have sex or be sexy or feel sexy from a dysregulated nervous system. And so then we're talking vagus nerve, you know, stimulation, rapid eye movement, bilateral tapping, any kind of tapping, deep breathing, going and you know, splashing cold water on your face. So, and I like to think about building in transition time for, you know, because women will say, How do you expect me to go from, you know, having a baby like breastfeeding to now you want my breasts in a different way? Like, I can't do that. And the partner doesn't usually understand, like, well, I can. Most women can't do that because their brain and their body are in fight, flight, or freeze. So I talk about what's your transitional activity? If you know you'd like to be sexual, because overall you enjoy it when you are doing it, but it's the getting there, it's that mental leap. Build in your skincare routine. Feel what it's like to put that stuff, you know, the stuff on your skin. You know, get some body oil, take a bath, take a shower, go meditate for five minutes, go listen to erotica for 10 minutes. That's what being responsible for your own orgasm is. Turn yourself on, make that mental shift with intention to be embodied, and only from there is pleasure even possible.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

I I love all of this. And I'm thinking about the listener who is is like, okay, they have been trained that porn is bad, erotica is bad, it's a betrayal of the relationship. If I masturbate, it's a betrayal if I have to warm myself up somewhere else and not with that person. And so, how do you clarify that for those folks?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Well, I really do first of all just try to be respectful. If you think porn is cheating and you're gonna, you know, die on that hill, then you're gonna die on that hill. And I would just try to maybe see if there's any other place for adding, you know, some stimulation mutually, maybe. Look, personally, I don't believe that.

Small Steps Toward Pleasure And Safety

SPEAKER_00 26:30

I don't know any sex therapists who believe that porn is cheating. To me, it's also a tool. Yeah. Like lube, like vibrators. Now, what are we actually afraid of? We are actually afraid of um out-of-control sexual behaviors like masturbation, like watching, because also you you have to differentiate watching porn from masturbating. When you're saying they watch too much porn, are you saying they're masturbating too much? Are you saying that they then can't uh become erect because they're watching so much porn, and then when they're in real life, they can't do it? That's problematic. So I'm not saying there's a lot of abuse of porn. Yeah, there's a lot of you know problems with it, but you can't just say porn is the problem because on its own it's not. It's how a person uses it or overuses it. You know what's a problem? Masturbation that is exactly the same with a vice grip. Why? Why is that a problem? Because a vagina can't do a vice grip like a really like a, you know, a man's hand on his own penis. So if you can only orgasm that one way, that's gonna be problematic for your sexual relationship. So, what do you need to do? You need to change your grip. You need to change hands, you need to try a totally different approach. If you use your hand, try rubbing your dick against something. You know, so we we do want to bring in like variety. But in general, I do try to respect people's boundaries. But I also say, like, you know, turning yourself on is is again like not a bad thing. When you watched Top Gun, I'll never forget there was just one sex scene in Top Gun that I remember at a really young age, like 14 or whatever, being like, oh my God, like I'm actually turned on. What's the difference between that and watching porn? Now, there, those people were paid to do it too in Top Gun, you know? So I you have to find what feels comfortable for you. I don't ever want someone to do something that they do not want to do and that feels like bad in their body. I am never, ever suggesting that. But I do believe that pleasure, just like everything else, happens just outside your comfort zone. A little bit of uh, this is a little bit different, a little bit hard, a little bit scary. That's where pleasure lies. Pleasure does not lie in total safety. We need a polarity. We need eroticism. Boring plain is not erotic. Watching your husband, you know, clip his toenails on the bed is not erotic. So then you would need some distance from that to find the erotic. So guess what? You're definitely gonna need to turn yourself on if you want to have sex later that night because it's just not hot. Nobody thinks that's hot.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Sorry, I'm just laughing. The example is like, I'm laughing because these examples are real, you know? Like I think. Oh my gosh, now I'm realizing why I'm not actually broken, right? I think that that's what you said, that people come in and they're like, I don't know what's wrong with me. I just my I have no libido. I can't, I don't, I love my, I love my partner, but I just don't, I don't know why I don't want to have sex with them. And it's like, well, okay, here are some things. And I love that you brought up kind of those recommendations as tools, right? I think sometimes we get these messages, so we have these expectations, but if we ponder them or we maybe reconceptualize them as tools that aren't actually hurting our relationship, I think that's what I hear you saying. Like, I want to honor those things that are boundaries for you, that matter for you, and never want you to do something that you are uncomfortable with, but it's going to feel a little bit uncomfortable to step out of your comfort zone.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

And so finding that line. Yes. Change only happens when we're a little bit uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. We know this because we go to the gym, and the only way our muscles get bigger and stronger is that we're a little sore the next day. Yeah. Not that we can't

Mindfulness, Trauma, And Regulation

SPEAKER_00 31:00

walk, right? If you can't walk, then guess what happens? You're not going to want to go to the gym the next day. Right. So you want to feel discomfort. Discomfort is not emotional. Discomfort is not the same as suffering. It's just a little uncomfortable. But when you go through it, you'll get to a place that's more comfortable. And so you're just moving the envelope a little. But I'll tell you what can be really risky and scary is sharing fantasies. Sharing fantasies, and I have, I think, the best tool for that, which is when people are like, I've never shared a fantasy, I don't know how, I don't even know what my fantasies are. Um, there are these online tools, or I think one of them I have is called like a sexual activity consensus list. And it lists like a hundred different sexual acts from like sex in public to you know, mutual masturbation to rimming, and it names all this stuff, and then you rate your willingness to do it. Absolutely never, potentially maybe. I'm somewhat, you know, don't have much of a feeling, probably not, and absolutely no way, never. And you and your partner do that separately, and then you come together. So instead of having to say, oh my God, I want you to go down on me and you know, for an hour, which feels really hard to ask, you just read it, number nine. Go down, you know, oral sex for an hour, and then you just share your number. And what you're looking for is the overlap.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

You want to find the Venn diagram of that, and then you start there with one thing you are mutually aligned on trying.

unknown 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

And it could be as simple as, you know, I'm going, I want to buy flavored, you know, lube or something. Yeah. Right. And you agree to it and you start there. That's starting small, yet outside your comfort zone. And what is amazing is you may have thought, I must be the only one in the world who fantasizes about X. And then you find that your partner does or doesn't. Either way, you're learning. But we have so much more in common. And I I want to also say one thing about fantasies that I think is super important. Fantasy is not always a wish to act. I will never forget, I had a patient who was the biggest feminist I know. I mean, like card carrying, like yell from this, you know, whatever rafters, loved her. So, you know, just patriarchy down with the patriarchy. Everything was about that, and as it should be, but anyway. And then one day she decided to share her biggest sexual fantasy. What do you think it was? It was she was an Arabian princess being like tied up by this, you know, chic, literally wearing like, you know, whatever sheik wears. I'm sorry, I don't know the the correct terminology here, but it's fantasy. And she wanted to be completely controlled by a very alpha male. And I said, how wonderful for you. She was ashamed. I said, how wonderful you for you that you're seeking balance in your life. Your fantasy is a way to balance your feminism. And guess what? That's polarity, and that's what a lot of women want. Women are tired of making all the decisions, being in charge, being alpha. They want to lean into their feminine energy. So a lot of really powerful women all they want is to be submissive to a partner to some degree. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm not saying they want like full-blown, you know, DS, dominant, submissive, you know, BDSM, but they really want to be able to soften and relax into something rather than being in charge. And you're nodding, because I'm sure you know this from lots of people you talk to.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah. I mean, I think there is this idea that there

Erotica, Porn, And Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 35:10

isn't, that that's not available, right? That it's like who I am in my everyday life is who then I am in the bedroom or in my sexual self. I I love this example of how you're using this word polarity because I think it is a good example, right? You can you can hear the example in this um kind of story you're sharing, that sometimes I do want to be something else in some areas of my life. And that's not a betrayal of who I am.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

No, it's honoring who you are because it's honoring all of you. And this is where parts work, IFS, can really, you know, come in. We have parts. You know, I'm about to be an empty nester, and as I said, so I'm scared, whatever. But actually, the reason I'm not as scared is I've always honored my parts. I've always worked and been a therapist. I've I've been a mom, I've been a wife, I've been a f a friend, a daughter, a you know, advocate, whatever, a sexual being. And so when you honor all those parts, you are more integrated. And that helps in all ways. Sex can be very healing, especially for people who weren't touched growing up. You know, sex can be very healing. It can also be very triggering. It depends what your history is, you know. But I do think women have found a lot of empowerment through sex, but now they they want to lean into the more um submissive part because being submissive is actually actually means you're completely in control. When you decide to be submissive, you are in the power position.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Okay, so something I wrote down earlier that I want to see. I know that this talk is about middle-aged women, but my daughter is 18 and you talked about your 14-year-old self. And one of the things that we have, she and I have talked about is just kind of relationships in general. So I'm not, you know, I'm not airing any dirty laundry here about things that are going on in her life. I want to be clear about that. But I think between her just sort of understanding of relationships in general, and I think teenage young adult people who see these images or watch these shows at a young age, you know, you, I mean, you and I grew up during a time where, like, okay, Top Gun, there was like a scene and Top Gun. And then it was like Jeremy Maguire, there was like that one moment. And but we weren't bombarded with those all the time, right? And so I just think about the difference in terms of us as kind of sexual beings, not necessarily in the middle-aged group now, but I'm thinking about women who are listening who might have teenage daughters or they may have young daughters. And how do we approach this conversation knowing that some of us might be relearning it now, right? We're like relearning, we're reigniting for our own selves. And how do we help our young people? I'm thinking young daughters in particular, or nieces or people that you have influence over. How do we help them understand that this you don't have to wait to reignite pleasure and desire in middle age?

SPEAKER_00 38:41

I love this question so much. And I'm I'm actually feeling very proud of myself as I reflect on how I've managed to talk about sex with my girls. I have two girls, I have 18 and 20. And um, first of all, you don't wait to have one conversation. Yeah. You start, I mean, I tell you, this starts in infancy. What do you call their body parts? We have no shame when we call it a nose or lips, and then we decide that a vulva is actually like pee-pee or a wee-wee or whatever. So, first of all, like start early. And by the way, I hope I want people to know this. What you have been referring to as your vagina is inaccurate. Your vagina is the tube and the hole where uh things go in and babies go out and tampons go in, right? Yeah. Your vulva is the entire structure, including the outer and inner labia. So, first of all, we actually really need to start saying boys have penises and girls have vulvas. Step one. Step two. Step two, um, when your daughter starts to become aware of genitals or breasts, um, you explain, and God forbid they start masturbating. And I say God forbid because actually um fetuses in

Risk, Fantasies, And Polarity

SPEAKER_00 40:00

utero can masturbate, which means we're actually sexual beings forever. But it's not appropriate to be sexual with other people, obviously, until consent and all of that. But um, if you catch, you know, catch, I even said it, I kind of just went into it. But if you find that your daughter or your son is masturbating, no shame, you know, hey, like let's just talk about that. So, you know, that's your vulva. And I imagine that you're doing that, you know, rubbing against the couch because it feels good. That's wonderful. I'm glad that you found something that makes you feel good. And we do that in the privacy of our own bedroom and we do that alone. And that's it.

unknown 40:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

No shame. So, you know, so it's really I I'm almost like at a do-no-harm place. Like, how about how about we don't shame kids for uh doing something that feels good to them, right? They suck their thumb, that feels good. You know, some people probably shame their kid for that. But so we start that early. Then we start things like I mean, this the safe, you know, good touch, bad touch kind of thing. I remember at one point my kids were probably, I don't know, 10 and 8. And we were driving, and I said, So remember, you know, I just said, hey, like I just want to say again, I know I've said it to you before, but like, you know, your body is your body, and no one can touch it unless you give them consent, and especially your private areas, you know, um our nanny can touch you there when she's giving you a bath or drying you off, and you know, Grammy can do it if she's helping you out into clothes, and mommy and daddy can do it if we're doing these things, and no one else, and you know. And I remember they were both like, we know, mom, and they got so angry, and I said to myself, Good job. I hope they are sick and tired of hearing this because it means they're they've heard it, and that's what matters to me. So, and also um inviting, I really think you need to invite girls and boys to, God forbid, anything does happen that you will be there for them and that they must tell you, and that you will never, ever have judgment. You will only be there to support them. I think saying that long before anything, God forbid, happens. The other thing I want to say is we don't we don't want to fight against what is. You cannot fight what shows up on social media. You cannot fight that they're gonna see, you know, a rated R movie at a friend's house because you didn't tell the mom you don't let rated R movies in your home. It just happens. So, what do you do? You give the education along with it. Let's talk about the fact that you could Google or you did Google um, you know, orgasm and, you know, whatever, something else. And I see that you hit on something that was pornography. I'm gonna tell you a little bit about that. So they're paid, they're actors, and that these aren't real life expectations of how people look, how people are groomed, and that they may not actually be in having pleasure, even though they're making those sounds. And so you just educate them. You don't say that's bad, never see it again. You give them language, you don't fight against what already is happening because you're behind, you were behind, we're done. We're we're already, you know, it's already out, right? Cat's out of the bag. But you do provide context. Let's talk about it. Do you think this woman, how much do you think this woman was paid? Does she look happy? That's why, by the way, I also believe way more in ethical pornography and pornography that shows all kinds of bodies and colors and sexual identities, because that's inclusive. So I'm a big fan of ethical pornography. porn where you know that women are not being harmed in the process.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

I I love this conversation and I I often have a similar thing. People will reach out to me and say, you know, how young can I start having this conversation? And unlike you, it's like this is not just like a one and done conversation. You need to be like continually planting these seeds and continually talking about these things out loud so that you are the askable

Parts Work And Integrating Selves

SPEAKER_01 44:30

adult when your child has questions because they're going to have questions that they are not we determine how safe they feel in asking the question.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

So great. Yeah. And I actually I do have one more thing. I'm sorry I am I'm always chatting. But so the other thing is I do I have explicitly talked to my girls about pleasure when it when they were older. So I I literally remember I mean you know lots of people are like oh you know my kids in the honor roll and I'm so proud that they got you know straight eyes. Let me tell you when I was proud I was proud when I discussed blue balls with one of my daughters and I said I just want to be really clear you are entitled to pleasure. You are entitled to feel good in your body ask for what you want and I don't know if you've had an orgasm but maybe you have if not you should you know maybe see what that might be about. And blue balls who gives a fuck guess guess why was we didn't we always think it was our problem to solve we had to solve that problem. And I and I said to my daughter I said they can just go jerk off when they get home. You don't owe anyone anything so I'm not saying blue balls doesn't hurt. I imagine it does but guess what? If I'm responsible for my own orgasm then you sure as hell are responsible for yours. So no guilt, no whatever permission to be like I don't want to do that or I'm tired or I'm done or sorry that's I'm sorry you have that like that sucks. And I hope you'll take care of it when you go home. Not my responsibility and that's freedom. Freedom to have your own pleasure and not be responsible for someone else's.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Well I think that's also consent I mean I think that's the part that I think people also don't always understand is that consent isn't a yes and then anybody gets to do anything that anybody wants to do because you said yes. Consent is an ongoing process that especially at the beginning or if this is a person that you don't know that well needs to be continually checked in on, right? It's like, okay, well is this okay? Does this feel okay? And at any point either person is able to say no this isn't okay anymore.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

And you get to change your mind to do that. That's right. And that's why heated rivalry is so it big right now you know the the craze of heated rivalry is they show consent ongoing actually between you know two gay men, right? He's always checking in is this okay? Are you good? Is this okay? And that is so hot. That's why straight women are so obsessed because that is consent is hot. Checking in on your pop partner is hot. How's this? Anything you want me to do differently does this feel good I can you know tell me I want to know that is erotic when someone is invested in your pleasure that's hot a woman's pleasure. And the good news is men are starting to get it. They are slowly not you know 18 and 21 year olds but anyone older that kind of and and when you really realize they that's the turn on the turn on is not when a woman is like I guess I'll tolerate sex right now like I could take it or leave it. Like that's

Teaching Kids Body Truths And Consent

SPEAKER_00 48:00

not hot. And good men won't want that kind of sex. They'll actually stop and say I can see you're not into it. We don't need to do this. That's a good man right there.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Oh okay we're gonna stop right there. All right listen hey tell people how they can find you in um all of this amazing work you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

So you can find me at brookbraylove.com and then I'm on Instagram and Facebook at Brookbray Love Psychotherapy.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Oh it's so good. Okay listen I know there is a listener or two out there that is like this has totally rocked my world and I am glad I mean I'm just glad that even if there were things today that you heard that you're like wow that's new and radical and different and that's good. I mean you don't have to take it I mean I think you said something about even about fantasy right is like fantasy is not always a wish to act. You can hear things you can take in information you can like experience things and then still say and I'm gonna keep doing vanilla and that's fine. A strong no makes for a strong yes. Yeah that's good. Ooh that's good. Okay man I just really want to keep going but I know we can't so I am glad you said yes to coming back and being here again. It's always so much fun so enlightening I think for so many folks to to be able to have a candid conversation about this um this and so many other important topics and so I'm glad you're here and um listener I'm glad you were here also thank you for being here until next time stay safe stay well