EP 161: If You Can Name It, You Can Handle It with Tatiana Rojas

Most of us were taught to talk about emotions with the same six words, then we wonder why conflict keeps repeating and connection feels hard. I sit down with licensed marriage and family therapist Tatiana Rojas to slow the whole thing down and get practical: what’s the difference between emotions, feelings, and moods, and why does that difference change the way we communicate, parent, and handle stress?

We dig into how emotions show up as fast body-based signals, how feelings are the labels and meanings we attach, and how moods can linger like emotional weather. Tatiana shares why vague language can sabotage relationships (like saying “I want to feel loved” but not being able to name belonging, nurture, or being seen), and why mislabeling what’s happening often leads to reactions that feel “out of nowhere” like shutting down, snapping, people pleasing, or numbing out.

We also talk parenting and partnerships: how to model emotional vocabulary out loud, how to ask better check-in questions, and why reflective listening can help more than advice. One of my favorite takeaways is simple but powerful: having an emotion doesn’t mean you have to fix it, and it definitely doesn’t have to become your identity.

If you want more emotional intelligence, clearer communication, and realistic emotion regulation tools you can use today, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who “is fine,” and leave a review so more people can find the show.

This podcast is meant to be a resource for the general public, as well as fellow therapists/psychologists. It is NOT meant to replace the meaningful work of individual or family therapy. Please seek professional help in your area if you are struggling. #breakthestigma #makewordsmatter #thingsyoulearnintherapy #thingsyoulearnintherapypodcast

If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health concerns, please contact 988 or seek a treatment provider in your area.

If you are a therapist or psychologist and want to be a guest on the show, please complete this form to apply: https://forms.gle/ooy8QirpgL2JSLhP6

Feel free to share your thoughts at www.makewordsmatterforgood.com or email me at Beth@makewordsmatterforgood.com

Transcript

Welcome And What’s Ahead

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hello, listener, welcome back. I'm your host, Dr. Bethram. This is Things You Learn in Therapy. I am glad you're here. I'm glad you are taking some time to rest or get excited or be interested or learn something today. I hope that today's episode can be all of those things for you. And I am a psychologist and professor of psychology at Indiana University East, where I'm the director of the Masters of Mental Health Counseling program. I do love training students. I love teaching undergrad students, but I also love podcasting and doing uh coaching and training in schools and preschools, doing leadership trainings. There's a lot of things. My guest today and I were talking before we started recording. We were just chatting about the many ways that therapists and psychologists can show up for people and how I just love that I'm getting to do a wide variety of things. And um, my guest is gonna be sharing about the things that she's doing and some ways that you're branching out into action this year. And so I'm excited to talk about that too. So Tatiana Rojas is back, and I am glad you said yes to coming uh again back onto the podcast. We're gonna talk about feelings and emotions and what's the difference and why does it matter? But before we do all of that, Tatiana, welcome. Tell us a little about you and tell us something fun that's going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah. So we like I said, my name is Tatiana Rojas. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I've had my own practice for the last um, I think approaching like four years now and servicing clients in California and Texas all virtually. I love the work that I'm able to do with my clients. And so I'm really excited because it's really kind of launched me into this next kind of venture. Um, I know I've been on this podcast a couple times. I love it. I'm excited to be actually launching my own thing and getting into my own podcasting as well, which kind of is uh, I think that's the new and exciting thing for me as I'm really trying to add, um, like you shared, some variety into my life and taking some of the knowledge and the interest that I have talking about mental health and putting it out into um a new kind of business venture, if you will. So um looking to launch my own business called Own Your Bloom, which will be hopefully getting everything launched here within this first quarter. And with that is also a podcast called Let's Get Emotional. Well, we're just gonna talk really basic, really simple about emotions and how those come up, how they present, how they kind of present through the lifespan, because I think those do shift as we get older and mature and learn more nuance and complexities of life. Um, and so that's kind of the big piece for me and what's exciting and new, and just enjoying this kind of new entrepreneurial journey that we don't often, I guess, consider or think about. Um, and so I'm it's giving me life and energy. It's also a whole new world to learn and adjust to on top of that. But I'm really excited to be here and specifically talking about yeah, feelings, emotions, moods, why it matters and what's important with it.

Therapy Work Beyond The Office

SPEAKER_00 3:24

So as I think about even being a training director myself, we don't really spend any time in training, like teaching people the business side of therapy. And my experience in training was a little bit different because I worked in a private practice as like an administrative person before I went back to graduate school. And so I had, I already had spent three years doing billing and scheduling and insurance and, you know, sitting on the phone while you're doing other work and you're waiting for insurance reps to pick up the phone. But we don't actually talk about that a lot. And I know that's not what we're talking about today, but I think more and more therapists and psychologists are stepping into this more entrepreneurial role because we do want to diversify a bit of our maybe it's less about income, though money does matter, but I think it is like we want to diversify our skills and our impact.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah, I think there's um, I think there's a huge piece, and even just taking a bigger picture, not even just um within the mental health world. But when I talk a lot with clients and when they're like, hey, I just want to figure out what's next for me, I'm like, ooh, what do you want to do independently? Like what, not necessarily like always a side hustle because I think there's, you know, still a lot like with that, but what do you enjoy? Adding variety, I think is so important into just your world because we get tired of the mundane, monotonous kind of clocking in, clocking out, doing this piece and adding just some variety can be so helpful, I think, and beneficial and energy giving to your day-to-day kind of work. And so as I've looked at this and just had my own, I think, mental transformation when it comes to business and what I could do. I'm like, nothing is actually really holding me back other than me to do these things and to explore them. And if I want to do mental health and if I want to do apparel, or if I want to learn a whole new skill and career path, not saying that I'm going that direction, but um, there's other areas that I love. There's nothing holding me back to do those things or learn those things other than what I kind of limit on myself. And so I think it's just such a great thing. It's not a mindset or perspective I had getting into the field initially. I thought, yeah, I just want to help support people through difficult times because that's what I felt like I needed at one point in my life. And now it's just like evolving. And so, but we definitely don't talk a lot about the business aspects or entrepreneurship and what that can look like. And I think now, I mean, there's been a lot of transition just in general for that.

Why Emotional Basics Get Missed

SPEAKER_00 5:55

So well, and definitely in our field, you know, I think in our field, we have had we've had a lot of change in the last five years, but uh, you know, there's part of me that wants to like keep talking down this train of thought that I actually want to get to talking about emotions and feelings. Tell us why this is coming up for you. Like, why are you starting this podcast? Why do you think this matters?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Well, I think there's such a big piece. We don't get a ton of information about this in particular. I think we didn't get a lot of it growing up. And when I say we, I mean, I'll just I'll just be transparent. I'm I'm in my forties, launching into that kind of decade of my life, and I don't recall being in school and talking a lot about emotions, feelings, moods, how it impacts the body or what comes up. Um, I think there are generations that didn't necessarily get that emotional education, if you will. And so I'm noticing in the work that I'm doing how much we're trying to check in. And I'm like, wait, do you even have emotional vocabulary? Do you know the difference? Um, I work with a lot of people that want, you know, really healthy and wonderful relationships, and they'll they'll say, like, I want, I want him, you know, my partner to love me. And I'm like, but what is that, what does that mean? Like, and emotions are also fleeting, so they shift and they change and they ebb and flow with what's happening in the day, and there can be so much impact. Or I work with a lot of people that are like, I'm always anxious. Okay, but what is that, where is that coming from? What does that actually mean? Where do we recognize that and notice that? And how do we shift some of what we take in and how we understand it? And so it really kind of just gave me some some thoughts surrounding like we maybe we just need to go back to the basics of like defining the thing, defining the words, and then really taking a look at each emotion that we we experience or you know how we how we feel about it, and talking a little bit more about that and getting just some more specific. So we have a level of understanding. And I I really do credit um like the movie Inside Out with kind of coming also from this place, because I think that was just a great kind of foundation, those two movies in particular. If you have not seen them, please watch them even if you're an adult and you don't have kids, like whatever the case may be, do it. I think they can just be really insightful and impactful. So that's kind of yeah, where everything kind of started from and what I'm hoping to kind of achieve with just talking about it a little more and just talking about it. Let's be open about it, let's share about it. Like, this isn't something that we need to hide, we need to actually be really aware of where we're at.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

I couldn't agree more, I think, with emotions. It's really complicated. Even just, you know, my thoughts as you're talking is like, yeah, we don't we don't really get a ton of training in this. We don't really talk about it all that much. And then the flip side of that is that now because we have access to like just infinite information in our pockets constantly, it's like we also are seeing emotion or we're seeing words about emotion. And so I'm like in this, I'm I'm wondering what your thoughts are about this because I'm sort of seeing this like, yeah, we didn't grow up, we don't have a ton of great training around this idea of emotional vocabulary, emotional intelligence, emotional awareness. I think there's all the emotional plus the next word sort of thing. But then we're seeing all these images and we're headlines and all of these things. And so it's like, how do we how do we help people come back to the basics when it feels like it's kind of all around us, but we're actually not great at any of it unless we're really pausing to be intentional to learn to grow in it. Yeah, what what do you make of that?

Emotions Vs Feelings Vs Moods

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, you know, as you were sharing, one of the first things that pops up is like all of the industries, a lot of industries are surrounded and really kind of prey on emotions and reactions and responses. And I think we're seeing that in a very heightened time right now, just in general, and kind of how people respond and react in that way. And the other piece too is I think depending on what you do or how your life looks, though, we're also kind of on this fast track, fast pace where we don't slow down. And especially when it comes to emotions and feelings and moods, like we actually do need to slow down and recognize them and let them process. Um, I find that that's such a big piece of what I'm seeing show up in the office and in the people that I work with. It's like, well, how much are you slowing down? Are you just trying to get through the next thing? You're seeing information, you're trying to take it in, but you're not actually letting your body process, you're not letting your brain kind of catch on. I mean, our bodies will kick in with our emotions so much quicker than our brains will actually acknowledge like what's happening. Um, and maybe it's helpful to even just define a little bit about what some of the differences are with emotions, feelings, and moods. And so emotions are really like their fast automatic responses in the body and brain. They're signals and they should often show up before we have words for them. Yep. So core emotions include like anger, fear, surprise. They aren't necessarily good or bad, they're information. Um, and we need to pay attention to that information. So a simple way to remember that is emotions are the signal. Um, feelings are your conscious experience of the emotions. They're the words you use to name what's happening, plus the meaning you attach to it based on your history, your culture, beliefs, your relationships. Um, so if an emotion is a body-based signal, a feeling is the label you put on it. So, for example, your heart might race and your chest might feel tight. That body signal could be fear, it could be anxiousness, could be embarrassment, depending on the context and the interpretation. And then we have moods, which are longer lasting emotional states. They're more like emotional weather. You can be in an irritable mood, a low mood, a tender mood for hours, days, sometimes without one clear trigger. So emotions are the spark, feelings are the label, and moods are the climate. So it's really important though that we're able to kind of understand some of those um differentiation so that we can kind of then key in and understand our experiences that much more.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

So I love that we're kind of going back to just defining and then encouraging folks to use kind of the right word to describe kind of the situation that's going on. But I I think about the number of people that just like get this mixed up a lot. What are some of the ways that you see people kind of getting these things mixed up and maybe why it would matter? Maybe that's kind of where I'm going to.

When “Love” Isn’t Specific Enough

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah. So I think I see a lot of um, I think just going back to well, let's talk about relationships um and beginning of relationships. I want to I want to feel loved by my partner. I want them to love me. But what does that look like then? Let's be like love is a fleeting emotion. Also, when we start a relationship, it's very, it can be very strong and powerful, lustful even, but we need to differentiate what perhaps what you're looking for is belonging, connection, nurture, being seen. And that can look different across the board. And so I think in what I see, people that are trying to get into like the dating world are going through like dating apps, which oh my goodness, I'm so sorry if you're having to navigate that. It's a lot and it's so much, but like there's so when you want to connect with someone, you want to connect with them on an emotional level. You want to be able to share and express how they impact your mood or um connecting with why they trigger certain feelings in you. So I think there's like levels to like knowing what you're looking for and being able to be specific and define those because then you know what you want and what you're looking for, and when it shows up, how to not let it go or work through it. And I think a lot of times we see or we and I hear oftentimes, and I'm gonna use this example of hey, um, my partner, I really want them to see me and uh they should know that I love to have, you know, I that I love my birthday. Well, what does that mean? Like, what do you mean specifically about that you love your birthday? You want a big celebration, you want them to dote on you, you want presence. Like, I think some of understanding, and perhaps we're going a different direction now, but I think part of it is how do we communicate what we want and what we need? But sometimes we can't communicate that unless we know what's coming up for us and how that connects to us on a on a deeper feelings and emotions level. I want to feel like I belong in this relationship and that I'm seen, but I can't quite possibly communicate that with just the word love.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

One of the frameworks that I use a lot when I talk with people about emotion. Well, I'm trained in restorative practices, and so they talk a lot about actually they're kind of shifting a little bit, but they talk about affect, which is kind of a similar concept to emotion and sometimes misunderstood. But when I'm talking about affect, I also sometimes pull in Mark Brackett's ruler framework from the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. So his ruler acronym stands for recognizing emotion in oneself and others, understanding the causes and consequences of emotions, labeling emotions with kind of a nuanced vocabulary. Um, we don't necessarily have to use this framework, but I think then it becomes expressing emotion is the fourth in the framework. And I think about when I first saw this, it was like recognizing, understanding, labeling. Like that's an internal process. I have to be able to recognize, understand, and label emotion in me and see it in others before I start expressing emotion. And I think that has kind of shifted some of the way I see kind of problems in my own relationships, problems with other people, right? Is that we aren't taking the time to recognize, understand, and label in a nuanced way. It's like I'm just constantly tired or I'm constantly angry, or I'm constantly overwhelmed. You know, I hear those words a lot. And I'm like, are you actually pausing to think about, recognize? I don't know. Like, what's your take on that?

RULER And What’s Underneath

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah, I mean, I think you're you're first of all, I love all of that and just kind of the breakdown, and hopefully that's really helpful for others to kind of key on and hold on to because I think it is important. We need to recognize, understand, and we need to label, otherwise, we're gonna miss some of those deeper things that are happening underneath. So if everything is I'm tired, I'm stressed, we might miss what's really underneath, such as like grief, loneliness, resentment, shame, overwhelm, fear, anger. I mean, we could we could list a ton of different things. Um, and so when emotions aren't necessarily labeled named accurately, they come out sideways, they come out through snapping, shutting down, avoiding people pleasing, overexplaining, scrolling, numbing, or holding until it just kind of like bubbles over, and then we're like, what the heck happened? Where did this come from? Right. Um, so when you name what's happening with more precision, you can respond differently. And I think that's the piece is when you're able to recognize, understand, label, pause, you can also adjust your behavior and how you show up in your relationships or how you show up in your day-to-day interactions with other people. You can't quite possibly make any shifts if you don't pause and go, what do I need to do differently? And I understand it's also a piece of sometimes these things happen, they're naturally kind of innate behaviorally within us, and so it takes a lot of work. And I think sometimes that can feel overwhelming in and of itself. Like I don't want to discount the fact that this is if you've been doing this for a long time and you have experienced anger in a certain way, it's gonna be hard to shift that. But I think you also need to understand where your anger is coming from and when it's signaling to you. And sometimes that that is such an important place to be and do the work. Um, but it's not easy, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

It's not easy, and I think as you know, if we kind of if I finish out this ruler framework, the the last R in ruler is regulate, regulating emotions with effective with effective strategies. And so the thing I'm going to think about, and I don't know, we can shift here and then shift back if we need to, but if I'm saying, and if you're kind of agreeing with me that recognizing, understanding, and labeling is kind of an internal process, right? Like I've got to figure out what is the emotional signal that's happening, right? What is the signal that my body is telling me? And then how can I apply a nuanced word to that? I think about how many parents might be listening, might be out there saying, I want my kid to be better at regulating their emotion. And they don't usually say it that way. They say, I want my kid to stop being angry, I want my kid to not have a meltdown ever again, or whatever. If that's our ultimate goal, I think it's most parents' ultimate goal is to be able to raise kids who can regulate emotion. How can we teach them internal processes if we're not explicitly training them on the in internal processes? You know what I mean? So I even think about in my own life, right? When I get angry or when I get frustrated with my own kids, and I wasn't necessarily aware I was doing this all the time in terms of following a framework of some sort, but I would be like, I am starting to feel frustrated. And I would say it out loud, right? Like I what I didn't say is I'm starting to feel my like body get tense. I'm starting to feel my hands get, you know, I can just feel my body responding in some way. And so I just think when you think about how we can train kids better on step five of the framework, right? It's like, how do we help kids understanding emotion, regulate emotion when so much of it is an internal process that we don't make external?

unknown 20:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Well, I think a big part is making it external or labeling and saying the thing out loud.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Yeah.

Helping Kids Learn Regulation

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Um, and I go back to even just some of like the basic forms of communication, right? I statements. I am feeling or I feel this, right? Yeah. And this is actually an exercise that I will advise a lot of my clients to do is just notice, go back to a memory, pick out on an emotion that you may have felt, um, and label that and say it out loud. I think when it also comes to parenting and with kiddos, we have to be ready to be able to sit with them in that uncomfortable feeling or in that uncomfortable moment. Um, even if it feels dysregulating or overwhelming for us, or we need to learn to ask for support and step out and step away and take a moment for ourselves. I think that's another like huge important piece when it comes to that. And I uh and I'll be honest, I have two kiddos that are on the spectrum. So this is something I'm even navigating now because their ability to understand and regulate looks different. But what I do notice when I'm able to sit in a space with them and look at my kiddo and whether I can get their attention or not, like fully, but hey, let's pause, let's take a breath. I see that you're feeling you look angry or upset, um, frustrated. Oh, that must be so difficult. I'm not trying to also place a lot of judgment on what is happening. I'm just trying to point out what's happening in the situation.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Right, noticing you need help.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

You can't open that toy. Um, you're getting you're you're getting mad. Okay, I understand. Do you want a hug? Do you want me to just say Here for a moment, do you need some water? Whatever the case may be, just trying to kind of be present in the moment, which is hard to do when you're dysregulated yourself a hundred percent. But saying the thing out loud, I think is a really huge piece, which going back to write that communication of like the I statement, saying it out loud or at least acknowledging it. And if you can say that to someone else, I think that's a great just kind of first step to kind of recognizing and acknowledging. And then I think there's that other piece though of you also have to increase your own vocabulary as a parent. You can't just say everything's about anger or frustration. We might feel really disappointed, might feel really hurt, we might feel misunderstood, unheard. And those are things that kiddos will slowly start to pick up on, but also it's how much you introduce it. They're never gonna know if you don't say it or show it or express it or label it for them as well. And even if you were to do this with adults, adults are really great at telling you, no, that's not what it is. Yeah, it's this. People will tell you what their experiences are as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Well, and I think in general, we tend to use very limited emotional vocabulary and kind of everyday conversation, you know. So I do talks with grown-ups mostly around a variety of different things. But if I ever, if I ever talk about emotional vocabulary or emotional expression, and I have them look at a list of words and say, circle the words, you know, this emotions list, circle the words that you use regularly to describe your experience. And it's usually six to ten words that people use regularly. But when I challenge them to look at it again and say, now that you see these words, underline the ones you've experienced in the last month. And then, you know, it's like the difference between an essay question and a multiple choice question. When you can see the words in front of you, you can start to be like, oh, I actually have experienced isolation. I just don't necessarily say the word, I feel isolated out out loud, but it has been a feeling I've had in the last month. And so then it sort of allows this space to then be curious about why aren't we using those words? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yeah, well, I think a lot of times we don't use them because of the interactions. We don't, if no one's gonna show up and be in this space with me, then I'm not gonna say the thing, right? When you say, Hey, how's it going? How are you doing? No one's saying, Oh, I felt actually really lonely.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

It's not something that we do in just kind of everyday normal conversation, but maybe it's something we should be doing with those that we're actually really close to. So and also I think it's how you phrase the question versus how are you doing? What have you been feeling as of late? What's coming up for you?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Might elicit actually like a different, you know, response and interaction. So it's also, I think that's a large reason why we're not maybe as expressive in that way, and we don't do a lot of necessarily check-ins in that way, but maybe we should. So it's like if you want to know how your kiddo's doing or your hubby's doing or your best friend, maybe it's time to reframe a little bit of the question and also just be honest about that. Hey, I really want to know what's going on for you. And right, I think what like what we were mentioning earlier, right? There's chaos, there's busyness, there's the daily to-dos, but it doesn't take much to check in with someone, even briefly, for them to feel seen and heard simply by asking an open-ended question.

Growing Your Emotional Word List

SPEAKER_00 25:35

I mean, I wonder, and I think this in my own life sometimes, where I'm like, oh, I really do care about how they feel, but I have this perception that I don't have time for their story if they're not feeling, oh, fine, I'm good. But actually, when people, it's it's not like people want to just sit down and have a therapy session for an hour, you know? It's like they just want to kind of say, you know what, it's been kind of a hard week. And I had this thing happen on Tuesday, and I kind of got really down and I got kind of messed up about it. And, but it, it's not like, you know, it's like in the grand scheme of like real life interactions, you know, we're talking about a difference of like three to seven minutes, perhaps. You know what I mean? And so I think there is sometimes this perception. So I love, I love your sort of like challenge to say, if you do want to show up for people, you might have to ask a different question. You know, might add to that also that the way in which you're asking the question must tell the receiver that you're open to having space for their response.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, I think we're kind of um, we have so many forms of communication now than what it seems like ever before. And this doesn't have to be like just through text. You can send a quick voice memo, you can send a video, also some of these things. Yeah, because we're so busy, we may not be able to have an in-the-moment conversation, but that doesn't mean that someone can't send a quick message and can follow up. Like there's also that space of right, we especially as adults, we've got a lot of other responsibilities, other things on our plates, things we're trying to figure out. Um, and so I think it's important to also take that into account is that I may not be able to take it in this moment, but I'm definitely gonna come back to it. And one of the other things that I think I share with a lot of individuals, and it's more of a motivational interviewing technique, um, using the oars, open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, summarizing, and that I think really helps people to fill hurt. It's just like a quick thing to go off of. So I'm yeah, I've been really feeling down. Oh, I'm hearing that's that's probably been really difficult for you as of late. I'm gonna reflect it back to them and let them kind of share, be expressive or not as expressive as they want. And I think here's the other piece too that I think it's really important to kind of hit on is simply because we have an emotion and we acknowledge it, like we don't have to fix it or change it.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

It can Okay, say it again for the people on the back, Tatiana.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Simply because we have an emotion doesn't mean that we need to change it. I share this all the time. Like, simply because you're feeling anxious, we need to learn how to manage that.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Not get it to go away. Sometimes these emotions and feelings and moods, they're not just gonna go away simply because we have a conversation or or say something or acknowledge it, but it might kind of resolve a little bit quicker and we might notice it quicker the next time it comes up, but we can't simply get them to go away. And I think that's a a a large piece of also what happens and maybe why we don't acknowledge certain things. If I say that I'm anxious and I give that label to it, and I'm now an anxious person and I'm identifying that, I'm always gonna feel this way. That's not truly the case, but it is something we need to understand. We need to acknowledge it in order for it to dissipate. We need to learn how to manage it. Um, and so simply if I'm checking in with someone and they're having a hard time, it doesn't mean that they're broken and need fixing, but they may just need to be heard for a moment and acknowledged. I think at the very basic, we can sometimes show up and do that for our friends and family. And then we could get into a whole nother boundary conversation surrounding that and attachment and things of that nature. But I think it's just so important to acknowledge that these emotions and moods and feelings aren't things to be problem-solved or fixed, they're simply the acknowledgement of human experience.

SPEAKER_00 29:30

Well, and I love kind of what you said about our emotions don't become our identity. Can you talk more about that? Because I think I think that that's real, you know, that if we even go back to kind of the definitions we talked about, right? That emotions are fast signals that are information. I want to encourage people today, and that's why I'm asking you to kind of talk about that a little bit more. I want to encourage people today that we don't have to be afraid of an emotion because it doesn't become our identity.

Better Questions And Real Listening

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Yeah. I think it can be an identifier or a quality or characteristic that perhaps comes out. I don't know how many times I have heard, um, especially in the work that we do and you're doing like a, you know, an intake session. Tell me about your family. Well, mom was always angry, grandma was always anxious, uh, dad was, you know, uh preoccupied or not present, you know, in different ways. And so sometimes it does become an identifier because, well, we don't have they they didn't manage their anger appropriately. They they were destructive in how they showed up when they were not, you know, when they were dysregulated. And so I think there's a piece of we take, yeah, we can take on some of our emotions and think that, oh, that that means this is who I am, and that's not that's not definitely not always the case. And it's not the case for everyone else. I think about the kiddos in school that are hyperactive and get labeled so quickly based off of their behavior, that's not who they are though. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

By any means. So sometimes we do, in fact, need to go a little bit deeper or recognize that simply because this shows up in this way doesn't mean that that's all and what anyone ever is. And it's also it's information, right? It's information. If so-and-so is getting angry or frustrated or feeling anxious or not doing this, they're likely feeling unsafe in some capacity in their internal world. Perhaps that gives us a chance to extend a little bit of grace or understanding or shift of perspective.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Yeah, I love that. I um and I was also thinking about our responses to other people's emotion. And maybe just a friendly reminder not to use identity-based language when other people are having emotion. So I'm thinking about a person who might have an anxious mood a lot of the time, or they may kind of have spikes of anxiety from time to time. And the person in their life that says, Oh, gosh, you're just such an anxious person. And then it's tough not to internalize that as this is who I am, you know, when other people label that with an identity-based statement. And so I guess I'm also saying we as humans can also be more aware of who people truly are at the core, and it's not just their emotions.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, well, and and I think, you know, as we talk about, and there's a whole piece of wanting to clarify like definitions and identifying, and like maybe it's just really how we say or how we view these pieces. I'm I'm seeing someone that's dealing with their anxiousness versus Susie's an anxious person.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yeah. You know, that language matters.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

100%.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah. Because if we replace anxious with a different feeling word, we wouldn't want to say that either, right? Like she's an angry person, she's a lonely person. Like we wouldn't want to really use any emotion words attached to an identity-based statement. And so I think that's I think that's a good reframe. Okay, so I had one last question, and then I'm curious if you have anything else that you want to like anything else that came to mind. But one one other thing that I wrote down was like, we're kind of talking about this idea. We touched just briefly on parenting, and I know you'll probably talk more about parenting in your podcast. So I'm excited to hear and learn from you about those things too. But um, I'm curious about in adult relationships or even teenager relationships, maybe we're trying to understand emotions in ourselves and in other people, but emotions don't always show up the same way. I know. We don't really have time to unpack all this. I know, I know, because your face and your little, you're, you're non, you're memorable. You're like, she didn't just bring this up right now when we have no minutes left. I'm I'm curious about the emotional retreater. The person who retreats in a relationship when they feel emotional. And then the hardship on the relationship, but then also like when one person is trying to support another person who's an emotional retreater, maybe they're still learning how to understand one another's emotions and they misinterpret the emotions. I know this is going to come back to communication, but tell us what your hmm was.

Emotions Are Not Your Identity

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Well, I think it goes into right, we can spend hours talking about attachment styles and the anxious um attachment style or the you all of those, all of that information. And I think it this is where it's it's such a bigger conversation, unfortunately, than what we have time for. But it's hard to be in relationship if you're not also effectively communicating your wants and needs. I want to feel close to you, so I'm gonna ask you about you know your anxiousness or why you feel a need to shut down. And it's it's also how we say it.

unknown 35:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

I'm saying, like, why aren't you telling me anything? Yeah, why don't you just open up? Yeah. I don't know that I'd want to open up to anyone that's speaking to me in that in that tone. It's no shifting our cadence. I talk a lot about this in my sessions as well. It's tone and it's timing, and then it's also saying I'm present and I'm sitting here and I really want to hear why why you're shutting down right now in the moment. I'll give you a few and I'll be ready to talk when when you're open too. But also know that I'm probably gonna come back and ask again. I'm not just gonna let it go. Because I think, yeah, people retreat and then they they push you away. Um, but also that's a familiar relational pattern. And when they do that, they know they don't have to answer any questions. And when someone starts to say, hey, no, I'm gonna bring it up again, and is very transparent about what they're going to do, we might no longer be able to do that thing. But it's something that they've also learned stops people from getting deep.

The Retreater Pattern In Relationships

SPEAKER_00 36:13

I mean, it's a protective strategy, right? I mean, um, somewhere along the way, they have learned that they need to be protective with those emotions. And so those familial patterns or relationship patterns, like you talked about, are, you know, they're protective. They want to make sure that we feel safe. And sometimes, well, I would say most times, I don't know what you would quantify it, but it's like talking about emotions outside of like anger, frustrated, overwhelmed, you know, those may be slightly less vulnerable to talk about. But I think it does take um curiosity and openness and relationships for people to learn how to talk about emotions together. I mean, that takes practice.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

You used a really um great word curious. Be curious about your partner always.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Under try to seek out and understand their perspective. I think that's you know, and whether it's with your partner or whether it's with your parent that you're struggling to accept who they are or what's happening or going on for them. But if you come from a curious lens rather than a fixing or we've got to change this type of lens, you might actually get more information as well from other people in that respect.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

So and at the end of the day, it's not your job to fix it. It really isn't even our job. I've had to learn this kind of part of the way as definitely as a parent, but even as you know, a friend, a partner, just a person. It's like I don't even have to understand it to still be curious and be able to walk away, right? Like I don't it doesn't have to be everybody has to do it my way, or I think my way is the only way. Like that's just not even real.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Yeah. So I and I think exactly it's but it's be curious, be open to wanting to understand. And if you're not open or curious or wanting to understand, then I think that signals something to you as well. How you need to maybe adjust the relationship for yourself.

Where To Find Tatiana

SPEAKER_00 38:20

It's an invitation, I think, which probably is really a pretty good invitation. So speaking of invitation, I want to invite people to check out the work you're doing. How can people find you?

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Oh, geez. Um, so we'll we'll be launching at least the podcast. So take a search for that. Hopefully that'll be coming out um sometime in March. So definitely out by April of 2026. Um, there is a uh Instagram page. Let's get emotional. If you do a quick search for that, you'll go ahead and find us. And you can always find me at G dot unders or G underscore E underscore T services on Instagram as well. Um, or get therapyservices.com is my website if you're wanting to connect, and there'll be tons more information coming out at that point in time.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

That's amazing. I love that. Okay, listen, there were so many things. I just wanted to ask so many more questions. I I actually didn't realize how how much yeah, I mean, I kind of knew inherently, but then as we were talking, I'm like, oh, we got to go deeper there and how people experience things differently. Anyway, thanks for being here. Thanks for um saying yes again. And I look forward to listening to your podcast, and I hope other people do also, and um just the work that you're doing. I'm excited that you're saying yes to doing more of the work that you are kind of being inspired to step into. And so I'm excited about that for you. So listener, thank you for being here also, and um, until next time, stay safe, stay well out there. Ciao.