Ep173: What If Your Calm Is the Real Product? with Barbara Sheehan-Zeidler

Therapy is “just listening” the way surgery is “just holding a scalpel.” Barbara Sheehan Zeidler joins me to name the thing many clinicians feel but rarely say out loud: our presence is the intervention. Barbara is a licensed professional counselor, an EMDR approved trainer and consultant, IFS Level 3 certified, and a proud polyvagal nerd, and she breaks down why grounded attunement, self-awareness, and compassionate empathy create the safety that makes any modality actually work.

We also go straight into the money conversation therapists tend to avoid. We unpack why accepting payment can feel awkward, how the “fix it” narrative fuels anxious overfunctioning, and why undercharging often ties back to old family stories about scarcity and what it means to be “rich.” We contrast cost vs value in therapy and ask the harder question: what does it cost to keep living with disconnection, conflict, and daily misery?

Then we get practical about building alternative income streams for therapists so your career stays sustainable and burnout-resistant. We talk workshops, intensives, retreats, consultation, reputation-building through community offerings, and how to start with what you’re naturally good at instead of copying someone else’s business model. If you want a healthier practice and a calmer relationship with pricing, hit play, share this with a clinician friend, and leave a review. What’s one belief about money you’re ready to rewrite?

Transcript

Welcome Back And Meet Barbara

SPEAKER_00 0:20

I am glad you're here. I uh say this every time because I truly am glad that people are here. You know, I'm glad people are taking a moment to listen. I'm grateful for whether this is your first time listening or your 200th time listening. I am just grateful. Truly I'm grateful. And I have to tell you how grateful I am about my guests who keep coming back. And one of my very, very favorite people, even though I have only known you for just a few hours of our lives together, I just cannot just tell you how much I love your brilliance and your whole presence. And Barbara is here to talk to us again. And I am so grateful. And, you know, our topic today is going to be probably more geared toward the clinician. But what I know about my friend Barbara is that there's going to be a nugget here for you, even if you are not a clinician. And so even if you're not a clinician, I hope you kind of continue to tune in because there's going to be goodness coming, because goodness always comes from you, Barbara. Oh my gosh. Can I get a recording of this recording to leave? Yes. And I mean, I just, it's just so true. So tell folks a little about you and um tell us something fun you got going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Oh my gosh. Well, thank you again for having me back. I am just delighted to be here and to connect with you and your audience. My name is Barbara Sheehan Seidler. I am a licensed professional counselor based out of Littleton, Colorado. I've been in the field since 2008. And in addition to LPC, I am also an EMDR approved trainer, approved consultant, and certified IFS level three now, Beth. That's amazing. As well as a polyvagal, I don't know, nerd. Like I'm just a polyvagal practitioner. Um everything I teach has an element of polyvagal to it. And everything I stand for has presence to it. Because without our presence, where are we and what are we really doing? So those are the like credentials about me. And then I am a happy, happy grandmother and married to my boyfriend of 43 years and feeling healthy and well as ever at age 65. So feeling great, feeling so vibrant these days, so vibrant.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah. I mean, I just love that this vibrance comes off of you. And you really, I think it's the thing that from the first time we met from our first episode, you live this out, right? Like this presence portion of your philosophy as a therapist is like who you are.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

I I um thank you so much because what a beautiful thing to hear that the way I am, hope I am, yeah, is the way I am being perceived.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

And um as a therapist and as a human being, it is such a delightful way to live any at any time, and especially nowadays, to live in presence and ease and flow and um reminding myself of who I really am and what I'm really here for. And what I'm here for today is to talk about the many, many ways we can use our uh uh degrees and have alternate streams of income.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

I actually love your transition to this topic. And no, I'll tell you the one thing I was thinking is talking about money for therapists is not usually in their flow state.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

And

Presence As The Core Skill

SPEAKER_01 4:30

I mean, yeah, no, no, completely. I I think that was a growth edge for me because it's such a heart-centered uh career, a heart-centered career. Do you remember, Beth, the first time you accepted payment for sitting and listening to someone? I was like, oh no, no, let me just do this for no, no, I I'm just sitting here. I'm just sitting here listening to you. And while that might be what it looks like, it's so much more. And um, if we do not pay our bills, then I won't be here listening to you. I'll be at another place pushing a button. Yeah. So, and then who's gonna listen, you know?

SPEAKER_00 5:10

I mean, I love that you're starting here because I think for early clinicians, I mean, I I like you remember that same thing where I was like, Well, I'm not doing enough, you know, and some of my trainees will sometimes, you know, they'll bring a case to me and and they'll say, you know, well, I just didn't know what to do, you know, I didn't I didn't know what to tell them, I didn't know how to fix it, you know? And yeah, it, I mean, the older we get in this profession, the more we really understand the value, the profoundness of just listening and being present. Yes, I mean she's listen, y'all. She's doing thumbs up, she's doing hard hands. He is here for it.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I am here for it. When you said fix it, I was like, and let's go right there. Yeah. What really is your position here? What really is your purpose here? Yeah. If you think you're here to fix it, let's examine that mindset, that narrative. Because I would gently challenge that idea and introduce a new concept about beingness, about simply being and being open-hearted, full of compassion and care, and not um empathetic distress or toxic empathy, but rather compassionate empathy, right? And as a new clinician, I think a lot of people go into toxic empathy. Let it say it's too much, let me fix it. What can I do? What can I do? And that's um dismissing the client's inner strength. Oh, which is so helpful it. Yeah, yeah. So I love that. Yeah, yeah. I just I loved that transition. Oh my gosh, when I let go of that fix it mentality, yeah, and really believed, truly embodied my beingness was the magic. And then the things that I do, whether it's sand or IFS or EMDR, without my beingness as the foundation, this won't really stick. I couldn't and you do eyebrow thing. Okay. So now, audience, if you could see Beth, her eyebrow goes up.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

I mean, I just I just love it and couldn't agree more, right? That it's like the foundation of the relationship in in a therapy setting matters so much. And so for folks who are seeking therapy and you're like, I don't really know if we are, you know, I just don't know if we're super compatible, but you know, they have

The Awkwardness Of Getting Paid

SPEAKER_00 7:55

this expertise in trauma, and so I'm gonna go see them. And I really think that what you the certifications, I think the degrees, you know, I'm sure you also face folks who are like, you know, should I see a doctorally trained psychologist or should I see a master's level therapist? And you know, this all of the things they do matter, right? Your expertise does matter, but the I mean, I know this word presence is one we keep coming back to. And so I'm trying to think of even another word that embodies this and culture isn't right, but it's like you're this environment that you're creating as the grounded human in the space is is just so important so that the client has this anchor to keep coming back to.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

That's right, that's right, that's right. The environment that the therapist is creating and co-creating, yeah, definitely co-creating, yeah. But sometimes the clients come in flailing, yeah. Flailing. And so to be so that they can anchor to the stability, the the uprightness of the therapist is such a gift. Yeah. And then the capacity. I have sometimes consultees that'll be like, what do I do? What do I do? And my response back is, you know, to to be with and let it emerge. Wow. And then there's this ahum. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm in one of my parts, I'm in my fix-up part, I'm in my timekeeper part, I'm in my, we've seen each other for five sessions and we're still at point one. I'm like, yep, and that's where the client needs to be, right? So it's there's an analogy too of the two eggs. Do you know this one? There's one egg in my one hand and one egg in my other hand. And and Beth, if I take this egg and I crack the egg, what happens with the stuff that's inside that egg? What happens, Beth? I mean, it just comes out and flops wherever you land it. It flops where you land it. Some people cook it up and eat it, but it just, it just right. And then on the other hand, this egg, and I put this egg in a container and I give it warmth and heat, and I and I just make sure that their environment is what it needs. And then that egg, I don't crack it open. What instead happens to that egg? It grows into something much different, and then it cracks from the inside out. Oh, I love that. Its own emergence. It emerges, its own emergence. And so, in its own emergence, then it's thriving, it's alive, it's it's it's constructed itself to become what it's meant to be. So, so can we help our client crack from the inside out in the safety of the environment that we co-create with them? But we are the foundation of it. We are the foundation in IFS. It's often said that the client will borrow our self-energy, they will borrow ours, and we will we gladly lend it until they can find their own homeostasis, their true balance, their true north. So, yeah, I love this this life that I have. It happens to be a career, but it truly is um the life I live, which is presence, uh, attunement, attention, responsiveness, personal self-awareness, so I don't get so I can be aware of my own part and then respond appropriately. Because after all, we are human and then we have our parts, but it's that personal awareness. It is so cool to be with you and listeners. Watch down the like Beth and I may do something together. I'm gonna put

Let Go Of The Fix It Story

SPEAKER_01 12:10

it out there publicly, Beth.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

I think last time we also were like, this definitely needs to happen, and I am here for it, and I can't wait. And I, you know, the thing that I am just sitting here sort of in awe about is just the way that you are talking about therapy. Folks don't always fully grasp what it means to be a really good clinician. And it it reminds me of a conversation I just had with my trainees, the the cohort of trainees that I've been uh sort of walking alongside for the last couple of years are getting ready to graduate. And, you know, we were ending class, and I I just reminded them that I never want them to forget the honor, the privilege it is to walk alongside people, sometimes in their darkest, most horrific moments, and just what a just what a privilege it is to share space with them. And and I in a separate setting, but later that day, I had someone ask me, do you love the work you do? And I just do love whether it's this kind of work, it's creating a podcast with someone like you, it's doing a classroom observation, it's connecting with a teacher or a parent, or I mean, it's just the gift that we get as the practitioner. Um, I just never want to lose sight of that.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

I uh and it is such a gift. I remember when I was in grad school, my um shout out to Anna Marie Fidel Rice from Regis University. And she said, Do you realize that psyche is like she said, we're doing soul treval, soul retrieval work. We are helping the fragment itself come back together in a more coherent, organized way. And that is just mind blowing that we're getting to we're born whole, like we're born whole. Like there is that that you know, one minute old baby completely whole. Yeah. Life happens and life circumstances says psyche, splinter off. Psyche, depress, suppress, repress. And then we get to be the ones that that shine the light in their darkness. We get to be the ones that give such presence of safety from that for like repeating, like you get to be born again, you get to be whole again. And I think I've talked about it before, Gabor Mate, authenticity and attachment. That those can be sacrificed along life's journey. And in my office, and maybe you've heard it too, Beth. I've had clients weep with, oh my gosh, I can be really me here, and you're not running away, I'm not too much. I can be attached, and it's just a tear fest of love and connection. And back to that one-minute born child, you know. So it is truly um for me, it was a calling that I could not ignore. And going back to your question a moment or two ago about the finances. The first time I accepted money for it, it was felt so awkward. But then I was like, no, this is my career. This is my career, and I get to be paid accordingly. And um I'm an LPC and I do not want to subscribe that my career nor anybody's career is a pauper mentality. Yeah, I just don't want that. Nope. I don't want that at all. Um, and uh, I think we all have to have at least a master's level degree, so it's an advanced degree, and then we need to have continuing CEs. And I think to um, I think I said earlier about it's not an hour-to-hour exchange, it's the everything I've ever been and invested in, all my experience exchange. Um, so I am all for getting comfortable talking about money. And the more comfortable we are about it, then the more comfortable people

Cost Versus Value In Therapy

SPEAKER_01 16:35

are giving it to us. Yeah. If I'm waxing and winning, it's like, oh, oh, I'm I'm I'm $95. So like, oh, I can pay you 80. Will you take 80? Right. But if I say, yeah, my my hourly rate is 195 and I prorate every 30 minutes, it's just different, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think too, one thing that I have started having more conversations with folks about is you know, the difference between cost and value.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Love it.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Often we look at things for what it costs and not the value that it provides. And so I have tried to encourage folks to think, right? So let's look at this $195. And not that it costs $195, but what value will you receive? And it sometimes requires people to think, if I didn't, if I didn't do therapy, if I didn't seek an expert to help me with this relationship I have with my teen or my preschooler, what's the cost then? I I think it's hard for people to wrap their heads around that, that they're like, hey, listen, I can't afford right, I can't afford X, Y, or Z. Yeah. And I want to sort of push back a little to say you also can't afford to have broken relationships or misery every day. And it may be a $2,000 investment, $3,000 investment. And I know that's a lot of money. I mean, if I just think about the cost of $2,000, that's a lot of money. A lot of money. But the value of relationship, connection, the value of healthier minds, healthier bodies. I just, it's a hard shift, I think, for some folks to make. And to your point, I think sometimes it's hard for clinicians to not get stuck in the I can't get anybody to pay me $195. I won't have enough people. So how did you make that jump?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Well, that's not my fee. That was just a number I pulled out. But just to be clear, um,

Rewriting Your Money Narrative

SPEAKER_01 19:05

how did I make that jump? Well, I'll to be really honest. I often learn from my consultees and my clients. And when I realized that people were coming to me for consultation for my expertise, my years of dedication to learning a certain thing and then the way I teach it, et cetera, et cetera. And they charged more than me. I was like, oh, I should evaluate my fee structure right. Like, wait, I should think about that, I should evaluate that. So I'm a very intuitive feeling sensing person if it doesn't, if it doesn't align, if it doesn't feel right. So when it didn't feel right, um, I needed to re-examine me because it was about me and my narrative and my story. And I did. I did a lovely deep dive into what held me back from from charging more than just to pay the bills. I I charged enough to pay my bills, but not more. And it's like, and now I'm not having that vacation, I'm not doing that thing, or I'm not buying that gift for my grandchild or whatever, give that grandchild an experience. And my money narrative, it went back down to my, I did grow up poor. I really did. We grew up a family of eight children, two adults. Um, father depression era grew up, mother grew up in London, England during the war. And so they grew up with a mentality of, you know, we are poor. That's that's what it was. And then I think to make them feel better, mom and dad grew up with the idea of, and we don't like rich people. Rich people, we don't like that. Uh-huh. And I think that made them feel better. I don't know. I didn't really get to ask them. Yeah. So when I realized that that was their narrative, I was like, oh, wait, what is rich? What is wealth? And what is what so I had to deconstruct my childhood narrative and come into my own narrative about my relationship with money because it truly is a relationship. Yeah. It's it's such a relationship. And now I believe in money. I I receive abundantly and I give abundantly.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

You know, in my practice, 20% of my clients are completely pro bono. I do one or two free talks um a month. I happily, happily volunteer to do things left and right if, you know, when they're things that I'm passionate about. So I feel balanced in my being altruistic and owning my value. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Absolutely. But I do go back. I think it is a process. I love that you kind of shared. And thank you for sharing that. That process, I think, is real for a lot of folks. Like understanding your relationship with money and how it Um, how it plays out because it will, it will play out, whether it's new or it's at some point. And so as you think about, like, let's get to the heart of our conversation today around

Why More Income Prevents Burnout

SPEAKER_00 22:15

different forms of income. And I want to say too that there's stages that a lot of therapists go through. Um, and if you're in the early stages of your career, maybe you're in graduate training right now, or maybe you are graduating soon or recently graduated. The these like alternative forms of income may not necessarily be what you're gonna do right now. Um, because I think both Barbara and I, um, off-air, we were talking about how we're kind of in a similar spot in our career. We've been practicing for, you know, about 20 years, maybe, you know, 15 to 20 years. And in the last several years, we've started to realize hey, there's more to what I can do than just individual therapy. It's not that we don't like the individual therapy, it's just that there are other ways that we can be useful for the world and also, you know, make a little extra cash. Because I I usually tell students too that I'm like, you know, the reality is it is a heart-centered field. You mentioned that earlier. And I tell students, you wouldn't show up to any other job and be like, I'll do this job for free. Oh no, no, you know, you're just not gonna do that. No, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

So I love that beth.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

When you have that moment where you're like, oh sure, you know, I'll do that for free. You might as well replace that with, I will volunteer in my week to do this pretty hard job. I mean, there are days where this is it's a we love the work, we are grounded in the work, and sometimes it is hard. So hard.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

It's so it's so hard. It's it's so hard. So so yes, I hear what you're saying. And um, some of the ideas I have about alternate streams of income, I think a young, fresh mind in the field could do it. Maybe really ready for it. Oh yeah, I think so. I think so. One of my um, I wish I could have a do-over when I was a young, younger clinician, I started to put together EMDR with Sandplay. And I wish that I had designed that into a protocol.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

Because then I could, or you know, designed that into something more as I was creating it. And and then it could have been this passive stream of income. And and I still could do it, but as a young clinician, I really felt like I was testing some boundaries. That could have been fun to do. Yeah. And I think also if I could add bath that burnout, I feel like I stay vibrant in the field because I'm using my wonderful mind and brain and energy in these alternative ways. Yeah. So I think alternative ways to use our time and energy and be compensated is going to um support my longitivity, my stayingness in the field. That's it. There you go.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

You're stayingness in the field. I I agree. I mean, I think tapping into different sub-skill sets uh really just keeps our um, I think it just keeps us fresh and going. Um and so when you think about alternative streams of income, yeah, what

Strengths First Side Income Ideas

SPEAKER_00 25:45

are some things that you know folks might think about in terms of doing?

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Absolutely. So I would pause when I'm coaching people on this and mentoring people, it's like, well, what are you naturally good at? Yeah, I love that you start there. Yeah, let's start with, you know, your strengths. Yeah. And are you good at writing? Are you good at creating? Are you good at leading? Are you good at organizing? What are you naturally good at? Are you more of an introvert versus an extrovert? So what are you good at? And there are things from designing uh templates that you can sell on Etsy and other places, right? There are or doing a psychological evaluations as an alternative form of income, or transcribing psychological evaluations to uh leading a support group to uh leading or having a paid membership club. That might be a little bit more further down the field when you have a level of expertise. But when you're a beginning clinician, I still think there's plenty of things to do. A lot, I know a lot of clinicians, um, thanks to consultations and trainings. And one of them loves numbers. And so she's now also a certified CPA. But she's I know, right? But she specializes in therapists. Yeah. Isn't that great? Isn't that great? And then other people um are the really good at photography. They specialize at therapists. See, so it's like take take the all of you, and what are you good at? And um, how can you turn it into something that people would want? The ickigai from um Jap Japan, I believe. Like, what are you good at? What do people want? What would they pay for? What's unique? And I love that idea. Another colleague of mine over here, she's really good with copywriting, she's really good at web design for therapists. Um, another uh another colleague of mine, she's really good at listening to therapists that have good that have great ideas and then and then systemizing their ideas so it's a practical application.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Like monetizing it for them. Yeah, monetizing it. It's like great idea, and here are the steps to do. Yeah, another person, and I don't know if this is still a gig or a job, she would read books like psychology books, and it was for a company. I don't know if it was for psychology today or network or therapy, but it was for a company. She would read the book and then type up a really great review of the book and get paid for that. Getting paid to read and write up reviews. Have you heard of some of these already, Beth?

SPEAKER_00 28:32

I mean, I love all of these ideas, and I think the frame that you're first starting with is you might be you might be great at therapy and that's what you went to school for and that's what you got training for. And also there's more to you. And what are you naturally good at? Because if you're naturally good at it, it it often means, not always, but it often means you also enjoy it. And so I think I think that's one thing that I've learned from sort of my alternative streams of income, is that when I enjoy it, yeah, it it is the life-giving, yeah, you know, stuff, right? I mean, I I I think I there's life-giving stuff and doing one-on-one therapy always. I think that's definitely true.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

But I think these alternative streams of income, if we start with what am I good at, instead of, hey, I saw this Instagrammer and she uh wrote a workbook. And I could write a workbook, but I actually hate writing. I don't know anyone. I don't, I'm not actually maybe great at writing. You know, I think sometimes, even for me, still, I will be on social media and I'll see something someone else is doing, and I'm like, well, that's a good idea, and I could do that. Me too, me too, me too.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

But I probably hate it. Yeah. I I always go back to does it bring me joy? Yeah,

Retreats And Intensives That Work

SPEAKER_01 30:05

does it get me excited? Yeah. And if I get excited about it, like I recently co-facilitated a retreat with Stephanie Feld, and we hosted an intimate group of clinicians and had the most amazing time. It was it was so lovely. And the theme was um inner and outer alignment for intensives, healing intensives. And Stephanie brought in um finding your true voice, your true marketing voice to find to write your copy to attract the right client. So if you can imagine a river, and a river has banks, and the banks of the river guide where the river goes. So Stephanie was the banks of the river, giving that structure, and I was the water, I was the flow. And then I talked about how to maintain your presence or what to do if you have counter-transference, or what to do if the client exceeds their window of tolerance, and how to maintain presence. Because in an intensive format, and for those that don't know, an intensive is when you're visiting with a client for three or more hours. So it's an extended appointment. I can visit with clients for three days in a row, six, six hours, three days in a row. And how to maintain presence um throughout that. And so that was a phenomenally fun, joyful, exciting, can't wait to do it again experience. And it was win-win. All the attendees felt refreshed and ready, that we have our own little thread going on, and we're like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I'm like, yay, yay, yay. It's like, so now I feel like I'm helping the field of mental health practitioners stay alive and vital. And because I'm doing my purpose. My purpose has evolved over these almost 20 years. And so I agree, like, what makes you happy? What brings you joy? What lights you up?

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Well, can we talk about this? Um intensive in retreats, right? I think there are folks out there listening who might be like, Oh yeah, I've thought about doing a um, I mean, even a workshop, you know? And there's always this fear, what if I plan it? Okay, and nobody comes. Oh gosh, yes, right? Yes. What if I plan it? Nobody comes. And so can we talk? I mean, I know intensive intensives are gonna live over here, and then that's kind of a separate, that's kind of a separate planning a retreat. Yes, separate planning a workshop, planning planning a retreat, a work. Oh my gosh, yes. How do you how do you get past that? Well, how much can I charge people? Yeah, to where I can make some money, yeah, but not make it um unattainable for people. You know, how do you kind of work through some of that? With great colleagues, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

I I truly believe in community, community support and having your you know, your group of people that you can say, I'm freaking out, man, and do that. And so at first it begins there. And then I would say very honestly, it's so many contributing factors. Is it live or is it recorded? Because that's gonna be two uh price points. Yeah. Um, if it's live, what is the minimal number you need to have to uh reimburse your time? Not just your time training, but your hours upon hours upon hours of developing

Pricing Workshops And Repurposing Content

SPEAKER_01 33:45

the training. Right, prepping. So let's start with the bottom line first. It's like paying a bill. Yep. And the bill is what what is um due back to Barbara for her um 50 hours invested in putting this together. And then put in all the other costs, in my opinion, like the rental of the location, the chairs, the snacks, the CEs. Um, one of my alternative forms of income is I'm becoming an MBCE MBC provider. Yep, that's right. MBC MBCC provider, and I'm considering I have an MBCC umbrella. And like, let's say, Beth, you wanted to do a program, but you wanted to offer CEs, you're not, you could be under my umbrella, and that would be an alternative form of income for me.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

But also as a workshop provider, it attracts more people. So first we look at paying the presenter and then paying all the fees associated with it. And then going in, like, where do you live? Do you live in a rural town? Do you live in New York City? So look at what the going rate is, and that will take you on the path to um the number. I'm going to always add in, you know, like let's say it's a group of 20 people. And after I pay all my bills, I might add on for a group of 20 people, maybe add on 20. I'm not good at math. I'm not good at math. 20? Uh-huh. I'm not good at math, but like add on so you get, you know, paid well. Yeah. I'm not good at math though. I don't think that would be the right. If it was 200 people, $20, add that on. Yeah, yeah. So then you get paid well. So it's a numbers game, um, the way I look at it, and then give yourself your your like pay. You have to have a little cushion. Yeah, definitely have to have a little cushion. And that's going to be dependent upon your demographic. That's the way I look at things. And I tend to make it more affordable than not. Yeah. Because I love to do this. And as long as I'm paying the bills and I'm getting paid for the day. Um, and then though, I can re-monetize that. I can record my live presentation and then pop it up that it's for sale. And then that's where the money comes from. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

You can take one bit of a um training and I think turn it into five pieces of monetization. So many, many ways to look at it, many ways to approach it, but that's my way.

unknown 36:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Do you ever do anything like that?

Reputation Building Through Free Value

SPEAKER_00 36:25

I love doing workshops. I do a lot of workshops in the community, some paid, some not paid. But my main form of um alternative income is consultation in the schools.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

And so I have kind of worked to develop relationships with people. Um, I think for me, it has been about creating and maintaining my reputation in the community. And so so many of the paid gigs that I have gotten have often come from offering free things in the community, right? And so that third year reputation. I think the first contract I ever got with a school was because I offered a free parenting workshop and somebody came and they said, We just love this. We want you to come do some stuff for us in the schools. And so I think when I talk with folks, often, you know, there's kind of this advice that don't do anything for free or make sure you charge at least something. Um and I think there's value in having people understand the value of what you're doing. I think that's true. But I also think our profession, like many others, relies on our reputation. 100%. I could agree more.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

Yes. I mean, and while I'm not going to get paid in bucks, when I do a free presentation and they write me a Google review, yeah, I'm getting paid. Yeah. Right. I can't buy the like, you know, yeah, yeah, par blah, blah, blah. Like, that's great because then somebody reads it or I can post it on my LinkedIn. I'm there are many ways to get paid, many ways. So if I'm doing something for an agency um and it's it's a lunch and learn situation, if they write me a Google review, I feel very well paid, very well paid because it's reputation. Yeah. I see.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

I mean I'm getting serious. I know. So I I just like can't wait. I cannot wait for this response that you're going to have. Oh, golly. As we're rounding out, I want to just keep talking forever. But what's your dream? And by dream, I could mean you're like

Dream Retreats And Manifesting Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 38:55

this is like way out there, or your dream, which is like this is actually not that far off, and this is kind of where I'm headed.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

And I'm gonna keep it in the realm of my professional world. Okay, because in my personal world, there's a dream, and I don't know, maybe they'll collide together. So in my professional world, what is my dream? Golly, parts of me feel like I'm living it already. Part of my dream is to collaborate with phenomenal people like yourself and have fun, yeah, and um lighten the world a little bit and offer hope and healing and laughter. And the means, so that's what I'd like to do. The means of doing that would be in a retreat setting. It truly is in a retreat setting. And um, all over the world, um, there is a place here in Colorado that I keep literally dreaming about. Yeah, it's it's this amazing cabin up in a near a national forest, but the cabin has like 30 bedrooms, 30 bathrooms on acres and acres, uh huge kitchen. And I literally just keep seeing myself with a co-facilitator. I I think I really like to co-facilitate when there are big retreats. And that uh it begins with therapists because I think we need support more than ever. And I want it to be uh safe and healing and insightful and creating communities through that. And it's through breath work and connection. And I've already done my first retreat, and so I do believe I'm stepping on that path. And I that's how I feel called to do. It's not an agency, it's not to, it's not to be the leader of an organization, but rather to be that person um in the circle with you, breathing with you and holding you and being that shoulder. I that's that I literally have goosebumps. Yeah, all over all over the world, wherever there's beauty and nature. Nature is my co-facilitator always. Yeah, and then somebody phenomenal like you, it would be great. So that was very easy to talk about, actually, because I think um, I believe I no, I'm gonna be really honest. I am manifesting it. This is the year of manifestation, and I've already done one and I'm collaborating with two other people before the year is out on other things. So this is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 41:34

It's why I I like sat back in my chair and I crossed my arms and I was like ready. I was ready for your response because I mean, I just feel that from you, right? This like I'm manifesting this thing that I know is on my path. And that's why I kind of presented it as, you know, I think I think what we're saying is that we're both kind of already living the dream. And now it's like the dream and better.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

The dream and better, because after this, what next? I know there's something next. I absolutely know it, and I don't know what that is. And I'm holding curiosity about it and and happy expectation. But for the moment, the focus is this is this getting a retreat up at it's at the YMC up in Estes Park is the location of it, this big, this big house, and then and then a different retreat down at the Broadmoor, and then a different retreat over somewhere on the northeast during fall. I just I can see it, I can see it. And so now I just let it go and like the egg, let it emerge. I create the right environment and it will emerge. Everything has energy, so I just don't, I just want to let it emerge as it's ready. Does that make sense? Definitely, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

I yeah, I am here to witness it, I'm here to be whatever part of it that the world sort of has for us together. And you know, it's for for me, it has been, you know, I did sort of this vision board at the beginning, which is a little cliche, but actually was was sort of a very similar form of manifestation for me. You know, I I sort of have two emerging things happening for me in the next two years, and retreats are always at the top of my list, and I've just never I've never been the one taking the lead on it, but I just I love the embodiment of what retreats do, too. And so I am the keynote at a um a retreat this summer in Tennessee, and so I'm gonna I'm just grateful for that opportunity. But retreats are on this one branch for me, and the other for me that I've really been stepping into is doing more keynote speaking. Remarkably, I'm an introvert, but I love being on stage. I love taking the science and applying the everyday life of most of my speaking has been toward early childhood or you know, kind of K-12 education because of just the needs that are happening in our schools and our early childhood spaces. And so those are my two like I'm walking along those paths and I'm I'm creating containers for those eggs to emerge.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

And so yeah, you look so happy. You look so happy. Thank you so much for sharing that. I was wondering what's going on in your world. Yeah, and so more speaking, and it's like one to many. Yeah, and that's at the age and stage where you are. I I love my crone, both chronologically and career-wise, that I get to give back now, right? Yeah. In my crone, my earned wisdom and my experiences, I get to give back to people that are coming up. I had many people crone down to me, and now I get to crone to others. Does that make sense? Yeah, we are the old aunties. I remember in my family, I know we're almost ending. Um, with my family, it's like, oh, old Aunt Betty and old Aunt Ann and things like that. But now I'm the old Aunt Barbara. I'm the old one.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

With just the wisdom to share. And I just love the like posture that you take toward like gifting that to other people because I do think that's just such a part of the work we do.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

It is. And I'm so excited that you're being recognized for your expertise and use and experience and how you blend it together, make it digestible. Really, congratulations. I can't wait to read more about that.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Listen, I want to just keep talking

How To Find Barbara And Closing

SPEAKER_00 46:00

about all the things, but how do people find you in the work you do? And if they want to, you know, check out your retreats coming up or anything.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

Yeah, my gosh, I would love that. Um, so again, Barbara, she and Seidler. And if you put in barbracounscels.com, then it'll take you to my website. And on my website, you're gonna be you can see my LinkedIn, my Facebook, and all those things. And there's a link there to contact me. So, real simple, who am I? I'm Barbara. What do I do? I counsel barbracounsels.com.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

So easy, easy peasy, lemon squeezy. And I will link it in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

And I just love you. I'm so grateful for you all. So great. It just feels so lovely to be hanging with you again. Really, truly. So good. So thank you for inviting me on and um, an audience, please follow Beth. She is a wealth of wisdom, is bringing you great stuff. So I'm so happy to be here. Thank you, Beth.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Thank you. Thank you for saying that. And listener, thank you for being here as always. And until next time, stay safe, stay well, and ciao.