We Are Selling with Lee Woodward
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We Are Selling with Lee Woodward
Real Estate And AML, Explained
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We unpack how AML will reshape Australian real estate, why property attracts dirty money, and how to build a simple, workable plan that keeps deals moving while meeting new obligations. Our guests explain the Austrac starter kits, the role of the AML officer, and the practical steps for assessing risk, verifying funds, and reporting suspicions.
• Why property is a prime target for laundering
• What AML means for agencies of different sizes
• how to use the Austrac starter kits
• risk assessment that fits your client base
• basic due diligence on vendors and buyers
• source of funds versus source of wealth
• reporting suspicions without stopping deals
• choosing and empowering the AML officer
• digitising checks and audit trails
• preparing for annual reporting and evaluations
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Hello and welcome back to the podcast We Are Selling. Today the cameras are on as we have a very special topic. We have some very important people in the room as I'm going to discuss with you what's going on with AML. Now in my 30 years of real estate, or 30 years plus, I've seen many changes, but this one is significant, important, and something we need to fully understand and be part of. So I brought in some of the greatest guests who are right at the cutting edge of their careers in this incredible topic. And I'm going to go through, get them to explain their background. First is Neil Jeans. Neil, welcome aboard.
Meet The Experts And Their Backgrounds
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Lee. Good to be here. My name's Neil Jeans. I'm a partner at Grant Thornton, which is a consultancy firm. I specialise in AML CTF, have been involved in anti-money laundering for well over 30 years. Most recently, I worked with Odrac very closely to develop the starter kits, which you're all now looking at. What did you do prior to that? Prior to that, my career is uh many and varied. I was a stockbroker. I was a policeman. I ended up investigating stockbrokers as a policeman. I then became a regulator in the UK, as you can tell from the accent, I'm not originally from Australia. Worked for a number of very large international financial organizations, and then was global head of AM anti-money laundering for National Australia Bank when the legislation first came in in 2006. And I've been doing consultancy for the last uh 10 to 15 years. Neil, you've seen it all. Perfect to answer our questions today.
SPEAKER_03Also joining us is Jeremy Moller.
SPEAKER_00Jeremy, take us into your background. So I'm a partner in the law firm Norton Rose Fulbright, been practicing in anti-money laundering for close to 15 years. I previously actually ran AML compliance team, so I know the challenges of what you have to do on a day-to-day basis. And before this, I was actually an insolvency lawyer during the global financial crisis. So I'm now doing something I love, fighting financial crime, which is a lot more interesting than uh bankrupting people.
SPEAKER_01And Lucas McIntyre. Uh yeah, so CEO and founder of Riversome Partners. A little embarrassed to be sitting next to these guys with their AML experience, but we work with about 6,000 agents across Australia and with our lending business sale funder. We've been a reporting entity to Austrak for six years now. So we understand AML, but we also too understand the real estate agency workflow.
Why AML Matters And Australia’s Delay
SPEAKER_03Do you know it's amazing? In 2019, AML came into the real estate industry in New Zealand. It didn't hit here in Australia and still hasn't officially. The legislation has been done, but July 2026 is our kickoff date. We got so many different types of people listening today's program from business owners right down to the administration operations team who could be becoming the officer, which is a great gig out there, by the way, for anyone who's interested. Jeremy, question for you: what is AML and why did it take so long? Like Australia is one of the last places in the world next to Madagascar to not be a pr not be regulated.
Property As A Target For Dirty Money
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so anti-money laundering is in in the title effectively is about preventing money laundering and terrorism financing. Why that's important is it protects the economy, protects our way of life. But it's really been instituted globally. There's a body called the Financial Action Task Force that implements standards globally. Australia, as you say, is one of the last in the world to do this. So we're catching up, you know, we we've got a way to go. But when you think about regulating these sectors, it's very similar to banks and casinos and others who are already regulated, but it's taken time because it's uh primarily small business. So if you think about it, you know, it's a lot of burden on these entities. But it's important to protect the economy and protect society.
SPEAKER_03And Neil, in the Australian marketplace, what's been some examples where these things would have occurred yet coming forward we'll be flagging those and reporting them back to Ostrak?
SPEAKER_02Well, I th I think you need to look at the the real estate sector more broadly. Yeah, look at the real estate as an asset. Criminals and criminal entrepreneurs like to retain their money. And effectively having a an economy that is strong, a currency that's strong, uh in a country that's a good got a good s rule of law. And you may think that's funny for criminals liking a good rule of law, but actually they do like a good rule of law, and also a growing property market, it's a natural asset for them to to invest in. And to to give you some data uh to some data, the AFP estimate that 65% of all assets they seize are property, whether that's commercial or residential property. And there are a number of cases that are starting to come up where criminals uh are purchasing properties, or it's been discovered that criminals are purchasing properties, as a way to store their assets and store their ill-gotten gains basically. And I think as we go through these reforms, we'll start to see more and more and more, because that's the whole purpose of the regime is for businesses to identify when things don't add up and tell Ostrak about it so they can investigate.
Workflow Changes And The AML Plan
SPEAKER_03So this is going to be a big change for the Australian agent. Go, he's a cash buyer. We're so excited. Yeah. Nothing wrong with the cash buyer. Where did you get the cash from? Yeah, where did you get it from? So that's never been in our line of questioning. Lucas, question for you, you've been governed by this for many, many years at a very, very high level, being in the money industry, whereas the real estate industry's adjacent space to that, what changes do you think the real estate agents are going to have to bring into their workflow?
SPEAKER_01First of all, they need to get their animal plan in place. That's the first main important part. And then that plan, which is specific to their office, will then dictate what changes happen in their workflow. So the smaller offices, there is obviously resources out there to cater for those, but the bigger officers that might work in different jurisdictions might have a different workflow, you know, per stay or per office. So there's going to be a few things around that. That's the first place they need to start. And then once that uh they've got that in place, then it's a lot easier to implement. So the first place is to start with the plan, work out where the changes will happen, and then uh hopefully plug them into their existing workflow.
Inside The Austrac Starter Kits
SPEAKER_03And can we put a line in the sand in that small office being 15 down, 15 up would be staff. Yeah, for a total amount of staff, that's correct. Yeah, excellent. Jeremy, a lot of people listen to this now going, okay, what do we need to do? We need this AML plan. What is an AML plan?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'd try and simplify your. There's a there's a lot to it. So thinking about when you're looking at your plan or your policy, really it dictates what your procedures should be. So a lot is required under the act and rules. But you conduct a risk assessment, and based on that risk assessment, you then put in place the right procedures. Those are the things you have to document in that plan and that program.
SPEAKER_03Interesting enough for our agents, and I'll bring this question into play now, they want to do the right thing. The office said this is what AML is, yeah, and this education is part of that. There is going to be a one-day event that you can come to in one day and get a full, complete understanding of where it is now. Because obviously this is brand new to our industry. But Neil, you were the co-author of the starter kit from Austrak. That's correct, yes. What's in that?
SPEAKER_02Well, again, the starter kit is that plan. So or uh a program. Uh it gives you a risk assessment that you need to complete. And if you complete that and you're under 15 people, 15 staff, you're good. It gives you a policy which sets out the things you must do. And again, if you review that policy and adopt that policy, you're good. And then it gives you a set of processes and a set of forms that allow you to implement your your uh your plan or your your your program in a way that makes sense for your business. And there's 28 forms in in the in in the program. Everybody might go, well, that's that's a lot. And it is, but quite frankly, on a day-to-day basis, most people will be using two to three forms. Yeah. Because effectively what it will be is about understanding the vendor, understanding that who the purchaser is, and understanding what they're doing and and trying to work out does it make sense.
Risk, Due Diligence And Cash Buyers
SPEAKER_00And a good example of that, Neil, is if you're doing residential real estate as an example, you've got a particular customer cohort and you understand the risk of it. So you're more likely to deal with individuals in terms of customer due diligence as a consequence.
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Absolutely. And I think the research we did with Ostrack we made it very clear that the vast majority of real estate agencies are individuals. Uh so it's going to be pretty simple standard stuff and it's not going to be too complicated. You still have to engage with it. Uh you still have to make sure you put the things in place to be able to demonstrate that you're you know who you're dealing with and you you've got a good idea where that where their money is coming from, whether that's from a mortgage or whether if they're a cash buyer, which bank out the the the cash is is sitting in. But effectively, it's just understanding your business with that AML lens against it. So it's not you shouldn't be doing too much different. And I I worked in New Zealand in 2018-19, and the sky didn't fall in, you know, cats didn't start loving dogs, uh, people just got on with it. And if you're a well-run business, which I'm sure most of your listeners are, this will be an incremental uplift. There are teeth with this, there's always been teeth with this legislation. It is new, and then you're gonna have to do some additional stuff. But the baseline stuff about knowing who I'm dealing with, advising clients properly, working with the industry, that's that's what this this uh legislation is requiring you. But to have that in the back of your mind, is this does this make sense? Uh is this could this be criminal money? And if it is, your obligation is simply to report.
SPEAKER_03When we look at criminal money, this is a big global issue. Yes, it's yes. Australia's been a place where it's a good place to do that. Absolutely. When you did the starter kit, what what was the length of time that you had to work on that?
Suspicion, Reporting And Letting Deals Proceed
SPEAKER_02Uh so we've literally been working on it for a year. What you've seen that company came out on the 30th of January is the work product of a year's consultation, and that's a year working with Austrak, it's a year engaging with the industry, pressure testing, road testing. I can tell you the first starter kit we came up with in June last year looks very different to the one today. And Austrak have been really, really bold. They've actually been prepared to give up some of their regulatory power to support the industry. Fantastic. And this is a world first, so the starter kits are a world first. Nobody else in the world has ever done these. So I look, uh yeah, Austrak should be applauded for them. The whole point is to help the industry become compliant in the most cost-effective and efficient way.
SPEAKER_03A lot of you out there right now are 15 staff below in that traditional real estate business. You can use the starter kit and they can get going. Yes. I've got other companies watching this right now who have 295 salespeople. Yes. They use the starter kit as a foundation and then engage a law firm to pull that all together, and that would be the next step.
Safe Harbour And Real Compliance
SPEAKER_02That will be the size. So there's this concept of suitability. So if if you're 15, you're definitely 15 staff or below, you're definitely okay. If you're 20 staff, you probably will be okay as well. But there comes a point where the size of your business and the complexity of your business, and it's the complexity is how many offices I have, what types of property I'm dealing, etc., where these starter kits won't be fit for purpose. What you need to then do is use them as you say as a baseline. There's a lot of good stuff in there that can be leveraged. You know, the forms, I I know I was speaking to a large bank uh last week, and they're actually looking at the forms, and they're they even when the large banks is going to leverage the forms because they're they're good thought processes to go through. So you can leverage them, but you can't completely rely upon them. So you know, 15, you're home and host, more than 15, have a think about whether you're still suitable. And when you get to that point and you say, look, these aren't suitable for me because I'm too complicated, that's when you'll need to start to do your own work and obviously engage somebody to help you do that.
SPEAKER_03Love it. Jeremy, question for you. When we look at the data points, I'm gonna use this term data points. Let's say I'm a real estate agent, someone wants to buy a couple of properties in one week, and I say, What do you do for work? And I'm a housewife. Okay, and which is wonderful. And she's spending six million dollars this week. I feel this is not quite right. What are my steps and actions as an agent to report this to Ostrak?
Choosing The Right AML Officer
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the first thing I think really to consider is the source of funds and source of wealth. So where are they getting the money from and how have they earned it? If you know that you can work out whether it's suspicious or not. If you form a suspicion, that's the thing you need to report to Ostrak. You don't necessarily have to investigate in f in full. You're not prosecuting it. Yes. Um I felt major sort of disappointed by that, by the way. They were really looking forward to it. And and one once Ostrak knows about it, they can share it with law enforcement partners. And they may have other information from other agents or other banks as an example, but your job is to report it. So you see something suspicious, that's what you need to do.
SPEAKER_03And Jeremy, you said something at the start of the interview about being passionate about this side of it. That one data point that I report three years later connects to another data point where the bank says something's not right, and they go, We've got this trail here. Correct.
SPEAKER_00They can now take better action. They talk about follow the money. So if you think about transnational and organized crime, you're not going to put the dots together quickly, but Austrak often wants to follow the money. So that's why they let the transaction happen so that they can actually target it. It's not about the small individual person that may be making the transaction and maybe that wider criminal network.
SPEAKER_02And that's a m I think a bit of a misconception, which it would be good to clear up, which is whilst it's anti-money money money laundering, it shouldn't be anti-business. Austrak to the right the way up to the CEO have publicly made it very clear that they don't want the transactions to stop. Even if you're suspicious of money laundering, just report the transaction and let the let law enforcement do their work, basically. So this is not about stopping business. This is not about preventing business. This is about doing business in a particular way and having a responsibility to notify the authorities. I just felt the entire real estate industry go, the deals go through.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, exactly. The deals go through. I'll reported it but it's gone.
One-Day Workshops: What You’ll Learn
SPEAKER_02But if you think about it from a logical perspective, and I'm a law former law enforcement officer, if you close that transaction down, I've got to find out where they've gone. Yeah. Whereas if you do that transaction, there's a lot of intelligence where their bank accounts are. I've now got a property they own. I can do lots and lots of intelligence and research on them simply because I know that information. So that's that's gold, basically, for law enforcement. So that's why they want the they want you to continue with the transaction because they'll get more and more intelligence the the deeper they go into the transaction.
SPEAKER_00I heard a term safe harbour. What is that? It's a it it's a challenging one, isn't it? It it comes up, look, look, if you're using the starter kits, that is a really positive, proactive step, as we said before. That can give you a level of comfort that you're meeting the regulatory regime, but you do have to implement it. So while you have a level of safe harbour on the documentation, Ostrack produced it, so it should be right, you still have to implement it, don't you need a document? The devil is in the details sometimes in doing that.
Digitising AML In The Agency Workflow
SPEAKER_02So exactly, the safe harbour is as as he describes, you're in a harbour that's safe, you're away from the wind and the and the waves, but yeah, that's only on the documentation. There are other things about making sure you do what's required in your documentation. And that's where Ostrack will focus. Because they've given these starter kits away, they know that they can't prosecute the smaller enter town for having a poor program because they gave it to them. But they will be looking to make sure that you are doing what you said in the program. So you are doing due diligence on your clients, you are uh trying to understand where the money's coming from, and you are reporting suspicious activity. So those are the things that they will be focusing on, which again is that implementation point that Jeremy talked about.
SPEAKER_03Question for both of you the officer, the AML officer in the office who's going to be appointed, who best suits that role? And to me, when I was going through all my research, it's not like, oh, we'll just get Sally to do it. Uh she does reception as well. Yeah. And Sally might be great, but it is a serious role.
SPEAKER_02Oh, absolutely serious role, and it comes with with risk, uh, as do all the roles that are set out in the AMO legislation. And really depends on the size of your business. If you're a 15-person firm, then it may be the principal of the firm does that job as well as the other jobs. He may co-opt the office manager to do some of the work on the routine work to make sure things are working okay. The model change. So when I was in New Zealand working with real estate, it really depended on how the real estate was structured and really what the appetite of the management of the business are. So some say, look, I'm the principal, I'm going to take responsibility, I've got the responsibility of everything else, I'll take this responsibility, but I'll get other people to help me. Others will say, look, we're a slightly larger, more complex organization. The office manager has the level of authority within the organization to be able to m do what needs to be done with the support of the principals. So it really depends. There's no one-size-fits-all, basically.
Sector Readiness And Suitability By Size
SPEAKER_00The additional point I'd make, I think it's the most important decision you make, because they will lead in a way what you're doing. You don't want it somebody so senior that they don't have the time to do it. You don't want somebody so junior that they don't have the experience or expertise to do it. So finding that right person, I've often said when you're considering this person, you inherently know who it should be. There is always that good person in your office, so you know you've just got the right sort of view for it, but also the people who want to do it because they'll be motivated. So that's a really important consideration.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, let's add a flashback then. It's like safe hands. I used to ring the office and go, put me through to Robin. I can help you. No, you can't. So let's say we've nominated our Robin. And for all our wonderful people out there watching this, who wants to step up and be the AML officer and take control of that? Could be on behalf of the business owner or the company. Yes. But there is going to be a one-day event available. There are, yes, uh, that both of you will be speaking at. Where what can they expect out of that day?
SPEAKER_00Really proactive advice. I think really, you know, engaged in terms of how to put the starter kits together, really grateful for the opportunity. We want to support industry, but also making it tailored to the nature of their business. So truly understanding the risks and how you apply it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And again, what we're hoping to do is take some of the fear, take some of the myth out of it. When we did this in New Zealand and said two uh a few years ago, people went through these processes that went through these days and they came out of it and go, Oh, okay, I now know what I've got to do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
Preparing Your Business For July 2026
SPEAKER_02And most people will find they're doing about 70% of AML already if they're running their business properly. But they may be doing things that they don't call them AML things. But they they they know who their staff are, they know who their vendors are, they know who their purchases are. They're a well-managed business, basically. They're they're doing due diligence before they're putting the offer forward to the vendor to make sure that the where the money's coming from. So they're probably working in this mode. What we will do is give you that little bit of more polish, give you the real deep understanding of what this regime is, what it's trying to achieve, and how you can meet that by simple, basic steps that won't turn your business on its head, will incrementally change your business. But this is not a, you know, I've got to tear everything up and start again, basically. Let's leverage, let's work out what we can leverage in your business, basically.
SPEAKER_03Very good. Now, Lucas, you've just spent two years building the platform for the real estate industry. It's safe to say that someone could come to the day, look at the platform, because that's got that financial sequence with the PEXA settlement partner. Yep. Take us into that. What's that sequence?
Global Crime Flows And Property Risk
SPEAKER_01So the agency portal we've built, in essence, the listed a settled process. So documents, the VPA payment solution, paying suppliers, dealing with the deposit and managing settlements. So it made a lot of sense for us to put an AML function as part of that process. You've already got that happening below business. Exactly. Yeah. So our agents that are already using our servers, the stuff that they've contacted us about AML is the standard questions like what's risk? Can I still sell the home? Do I need to report them? How do I do this? So that's why we've put these training days together. But more importantly, too, we're taking what we can out of the starter kits and try to digitize a big chunk of that process with enough flexibility for larger offices to manually enter input data for their annual plan to be compliant. We also track um the data. It doesn't, if it's not recorded, it's not, it didn't happen as far as Australia concerned. So we've created an audit trail for the future audits that the real estate agent goes through. And ultimately, where our platform works with a lot of administrators and trust account managers, they tend to be the people putting their hand up to go, you know what, I'm already managing the trust account or I'm managing this process. Now what we need to do is just upskill them a bit. And like Neil said, they're already doing a big chunk of this process when they manage the trust account. So this is that final bit just so we can feel comfortable, but also too, it's a person that's kind of a decent, strong personality where they can't get railroaded by the agent or told what to do by the boss. They need to say, look, this is, as it says in the name, responsible. And this is what they have to do to follow to um to make sure the business is compliant. So so yeah, try to build into their workflow, which is key because getting agents to change behaviour is very difficult. Building in what they do every day was important. And and again, hats off to to Neil and his team and Ostrack, they have really listened to the industry. They haven't enabled AML to happen before they do anything or before they sell the house, which just would have been impossible. So the kits legislation uh it I do really hope and believe we'll have a successful annual rollout out of this year.
ID Checks, Red Flags And Audit Trails
SPEAKER_03This is such a great collaboration. And when I when I was first alerted to all this, it was like, oh, here we go. A lot of work's been going on for a long period of time. And there's good reasons for this. The real estate industry can really help with AML internationally of what's going on just by that reporting process, those steps of data. Although the starter kit will get you going for that office below 15, now you need to attend the day to know how to use the kit.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So the the the days that we're we've we've designed basically will be for all real estate agents, whether you're big, small, or medium size. If you are under 15, you know, you can use the starter kit, but you've Got to complete it. And that takes a bit of time and effort. And this day will help you and guide you through that that work for you. If you're medium size, it'll help you work out whether the starter kits are still suitable and I can work through and use those as well. Or what bits I can use. And if I'm a larger firm, it'll actually give you the foundation of the key building blocks that you need to have in your program and which bits of the starter kit you can actually pull out and use, basically. So the the the day is for everybody, basically. And Ostrak will be doing the reporting or the audits in a couple of years' time. So you have an annual compliance report. Your first one is in uh January 2027. Right. Uh but the external audits actually are be done by a third party. But if you've got a starter kit and if you've got a well thought-out program, which these days will provide you with, ultimately your independent evaluation is going to be a lot easier and a lot more streamlined. And therefore, hopefully costs a lot less money.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Lucas, these one-day events are not ARIC. They are workshops. That's right. They're limited to 60, they're interactive. And we're actually wanting the AML students to have a network of people that, you know, they can reach out and ask a question to.
Tracking Deposits And Source Of Funds
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, when when the individual signs up to these workshops, we'll know which sort of office they are, a small, medium, or large. If they're a small office, we'll give them some homework to do beforehand so they can come in as prepared as possible. If they're a medium or large business, perhaps our law firm may have done a big chunk of the plan for them. And potentially, you know, Norton Rose Fulbright or Grand Thornton would have signed off and completed the plan for them. But the idea is to have enough people in a room that we can get through the industry, but also too not too big, but just can't have that one-to-one interaction with the experts that have put these things together. So we want to make sure that when they when these days are run, that any questions that are unanswered can be answered on the day. So the industry is trained, ready to go when July comes around.
SPEAKER_03And just to my principals out there, you may be attending and you should, but who's that person in the office, as Jeremy said, you know their name already? Who should be attending with you? Final questions. What's your final advice for people to get ready for the day to come in and do the training? And that'll all be announced when those dates are. That'll be in the show notes, that link to go to that. But what can they do in preparation?
SPEAKER_00Just think of it in the context of your business. You already do, you know, really good tasks that can actually deal with a lot of the risks. And I think once you've got those in place and once you're regulated, the criminal isn't going to try and target the sector as much. So think about why doing this is important. And as long as you put those steps in place, you're very much on the way there to, you know, being able to deal with this. So yeah, just be positive and proactive.
Final Takeaways And Workshop CTA
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And look, uh what I would suggest is, yeah, similar to what Jeremy says, is think about your business today. Think about how many how many houses or properties you sold l in the last 12 months. Think about where they're located, think about who you sold them to, who think about who you uh sold them for. Because effectively your business isn't gonna change. On July the 1st, when you're AML regulated, your business suddenly isn't gonna dramatically change. So you should have a good idea of what business you're gonna be doing post July, July 1, currently. So th in preparation for those workshops, just think about your business. We'll pull that information out of you. So we'll ask you sort of, yeah, where do your clients come from? Are they all aussies or do you have overseas buyers? You know, where do your vendors come from? You know, where does the money come from? Is it uh do you have cash purchases or do you uh do people have mortgages? Because it's all about risk. It's all about understanding the risk and then making sure what you do in your business is appropriate to manage that risk. And most, and the the the working assumption of Ostrack, which I think is 100% correct, is most real estate agents will be low risk. You might say, Well, why are we doing this then? Why are we getting involved if we're all low risk? But low risk doesn't mean no risk. You know, there could be that one, and as as you said, Lee, you could be that last piece of the jigsaw that breaks open a major case. So that's the way to think that's the way to think about you're playing a part, you're playing a role, and through these workshops will help you play that role.
SPEAKER_03And where is the money coming from? Just to give some con context to our listener of where that money comes from. It's coming from all over the world.
SPEAKER_02So to give you a data point, they estimate the black market uh globally is somewhere around$1.8 trillion a year. Wow. So think to put that in perspective, that's the gross domestic product of both Australia and New Zealand combined. So there's a there's a country out there called Crimeworld that's generating more economic power than Australia and New Zealand combined. That money has to go somewhere. And that bear in mind, that's every year. That's not once off, that's every year$1.8 trillion. Put that in perspective to Australia. Domestic crime is somewhere around$15 billion a year that is generated through domestic crime that has to go somewhere. And yeah, it's not all about cash. We're in a a financially more sophisticated world these days. But that money has to find a home. And property and real estate is a great, uh, a great place to launder money. Saved as houses.
SPEAKER_03Save as houses, exactly. Jeremy, what what what is the criminals we are going to be preventing? Where's that money been coming from?
SPEAKER_00I think as Neil says, it's all crime really. I I like the one that you put a uh size of the map of Australia up against the US and it's about the same size. So we've got a huge amount of property real estate in this country. So that's the reason, you know, it's a stable economy, as we said before. But you think about where we are in the world as well. If you don't want to store your wealth elsewhere and it might be taken away overnight, Australia's a really good place to put it. So money flows from everywhere. Yeah, or Madagascar.
SPEAKER_03Oh Haiti, oh Haiti, oh Haiti. We're all islands. And then Lucas, final question for you. I did that thing before of all your little connections and all. True. Because people think I've got to check all these things, but the platform set up that it's doing digital checks with who to do the ID checks and so forth.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we uh we have a plug-in with Equifax. So they produce a significant amount of the uh ID checks for the banks and the gaming companies. So believe it or not, uh Melbourne Cup Day is their biggest day of the year when people open up a uh a betting account. Ultimately, it plugs into a what's called a DVS, and that data is from a lot of different points. And some of the things that they're reporting back to us are is this person on the sanctions list or is this person a political person of interest? And it's that sort of information that comes from Equifax and other companies. That's uh a really good red flag for AML to go, well, that's not part of my risk profile. I should potentially looking to report this person to Ostrak because they're they're interested in in the whether they do their business. So, you know, that that's a big chunk of this process. However, the ID check doesn't tell if a person's wearing an ankle bracelet, right? So that's the local on the ground real estate agents, um, you know, at the coal face of the case. Keep your open for that. That's right. The suitcase of cash. Exactly, the suitcase of cash, things like that. So, although we do use a lot of digital tools to help take away some of the burden, it's not a full solution that you still need to have that responsible person and that eyes on the ground uh training that every agency should be getting. And uh had quite a few agents speak to me last week about your new deposits.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Are you using BPay to pay for a house deposit on a Saturday now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So one of the things that we provide is we plug directly into the banking networks. So if somebody pays via pay two or b pay, um, we can track it back directly to that individual person, which is a great way to say, yes, this is the person that's paid for this deposit of this property. So as well as your ID checks and your own AML plan checks, um, we can at least link back to the source of funds. Now, it doesn't tell you where they got the money, but at least you know that was their bank that paid. So if um, for example, Lee purchases a property, but uh Xu Jinping pays a deposit, um, that'll be a flag that the agency has to ask, you know, what's your relationship? And it might be he's my father-in-law or whatever the answer is. But if it's suspicious, then it's it's easy to go, you know what, I I probably should be reporting this as part of my animal plan.
SPEAKER_00It helps the bank manage their risk, but also with many other soon-to-be-regulated interests like lawyers and conveyances, helps it manage everybody's risks.
SPEAKER_03So it's just an extra data point to just make you as compliant as possible. Absolutely amazing. Well, even today we progressed with some clarity around this big topic, but get yourself to the one-day events. This is gonna be a great opportunity to really get the learning from people that have done the work and like separate to this AML project, your backgrounds. Um, you've prepared your whole life for this moment. It's gonna be quite a day. And uh just want to thank all of you for appearing on We Are Selling. Thank you. Thank you, Learn. Thanks, Lou. Well, that concludes this session on AML for the moment, and this podcast was designed to bring to your attention the next actions and steps you need to take. And that step is to book into the one-day event. These are workshops of 60 people and below. You'll get access to our incredible panel, but also walk out of there knowing this is what we need to do. And whenever people try and implement by themselves, they quite often get into that rabbit hole and it doesn't get done. So getting it done in the day that you are there with the guidance is what this workshop is about. You have the brilliant starter kit to get you going, and we look forward to hearing the results. And those people that want to be involved in AML are protecting our companies and our industry. I'm Lee Woodward, enjoy the day.