John "Murf" on Coming Out, Drag Culture, Life Lessons, Relationships, AIDS, Acting in NYC and LA's Casting Couches. Oh My!

CHAPTERS
00:00
Introduction to Murph and the Gay Men's Collective
02:43
Murph's Early Life and Self-Discovery
05:08
Coming Out and Understanding Identity
07:50
First Experiences and Relationships
10:07
Exploring Sexuality and Community
12:34
Uber Stories and Encounters
15:00
Bachelorette Parties and Observations
17:29
Reflections on Safe Spaces and Community Dynamics
22:33
Observations on Social Dynamics in Gay Bars
23:43
Navigating the New York City Gay Scene
27:09
The Transition from Acting to Retail Sales
32:35
Skills Transfer: From Performance to Sales Training
34:43
Future Aspirations and Retirement Plans
43:22
Life Lessons and Personal Insights

SUMMARY
In this engaging conversation, Murph shares his journey from his early life in Ireland to his experiences in the LGBTQ community, including coming out, navigating the AIDS epidemic, and his life in New York City. He discusses his time in the drag scene, memorable Uber stories, and the lessons he's learned throughout his life. The conversation highlights the importance of self-acceptance, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ community, and the joy of travel and personal connections.

TAKEAWAYS
Murph's early experiences shaped his understanding of his identity.
Coming out can be a complex journey influenced by societal perceptions.
The AIDS epidemic had a profound impact on the LGBTQ community during the 80s and 90s.
Personal relationships can be both innocent and transformative during adolescence.
Life in New York City offered Murph a vibrant LGBTQ culture and opportunities.
Memorable encounters while driving Uber reveal the diversity of experiences in Palm Springs.
Traveling can lead to self-discovery and deeper connections with others.
Lessons learned include the importance of taking chances and being true to oneself.
Respect is more important than being liked in personal relationships.
Finding joy in the small moments can reset one's perspective.

BIO
John "Murf" is Irish-born, New York-based, and living proof that wanderlust, wit, and a well-curated playlist can take you far.
He’s as happy glamping in the woods as he is lounging on a beach — ideally after museum-hopping and a three-course lunch. A Modigliani fan, Paris devotee, and certified foodie, he curates his life like his music: part 70s disco, part 90s nostalgia, all vibes.
Gay, glam, and occasionally grounded, John believes in good shoes, great stories, and never saying no to dessert — or a flight to somewhere fabulous.

To contact Wilkinson:  BecomingWilkinson@gmail.com

Transcript

Wilkinson (00:00)
Hey, Murf. Hi, everybody. This is John Murphy. He's in New York City. We met, I don't know, a few months ago on a group that we're, a Zoom group we're on called Gay Men's Collective, which is a very fun group. And he's always a loud mouth and has something to say. He's in New York.

Murf (00:01)
Hey, what's going on, Wilkinson?

Yeah.

I know I have this reputation

in my group. Like if you want a dissension, go to Murph. I'm like Sonia Sotomayor or something. Or who's the other one? Katandee Jackson Brown is me. I'm the dissenting voice.

Wilkinson (00:24)
There you go.

Yeah.

Well, I'm a bit of a rabble rouser sometimes on there myself. Everybody's agree. I don't agree with that.

Murf (00:35)
Yeah, I like-

Yes.

But that's what we have to do. Sometimes we have to challenge. You know, we don't have to agree with everything. We can respect people, but I'd have to agree with you.

Wilkinson (00:43)
Right?

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. And if anybody listening wants a deep, not superficial group, gay men's collective ⁓ private message, I'll tell you about it. See if you're, I'll see if you're qualified. You can't, you can't be superficial. That's not what we're looking for. ⁓ So yeah, there you go. Look at this. Hey, so let's talk about you.

Murf (00:59)
It's pretty awesome. Yes. Your guts are ripped from inside you and laid bare in a room meeting.

Yeah.

Wilkinson (01:13)
Is that your favorite topic?

Murf (01:15)
I always like talking about

myself. I've always been very good at it. And part of it is because of business I'm in. So I have to have a nice chat, know, I'd be able to chat about myself.

Wilkinson (01:19)
Okay. ⁓

Well, I-

Right.

Well, you haven't said, but I know you're gay. can tell just kidding. You're in the gay men's collective. Hello. So anyway, what's your day story? Let's hear it. Go back, go back as early as you want, but don't go to, was born. Go a little bit more.

Murf (01:30)
Yeah.

Uhhh gosh.

So I think the time I recognized, when I realized that maybe I was a little different, but I didn't even know if I was a little different. I was just infatuated. My aunt, when I lived, so I'm from Ireland originally, obviously you could tell with the accent. My family moved over in 1985 and we ended up in Connecticut and then eventually I made my way to New York City. But early on when I was maybe three or four,

four years old, I remember that my aunt who lived across the street from us in the town that we lived in Ireland, had this life-size doll in her closet. And I remember when nobody would be home, because I would be left alone, or if people were busy, I would sneak up to her bedroom and open her closet and take this big doll out and just kind of sit and stare at it for hours and hours.

Wilkinson (02:31)
Wait a minute, this is a male, that's an actual doll or was it a blow up?

Murf (02:35)
No, so my aunt had the

doll and the doll was like, you know, a Victorian dressed child doll, but it was like child size. So when I took it out of the box, like it was like as a child, I was looking right at it. I remember just being so.

Wilkinson (02:43)
Okay.

For a

minute I thought you had the kinky hand with a big blow up doll.

Murf (02:52)
Oh,

well, that cut to 20, 30 years later. so that was kind of one of the first memories that I have of something maybe a little different about me. then. I remember the first time I came out, I would have been, gosh, what was that 85, so 84.

Wilkinson (02:55)
Okay, okay, all right, all right, all right, all right.

Murf (03:12)
So I would have been maybe 12 years old when I first said something to somebody. And it was my sister and my first cousin who was from England who was visiting. And we were watching a children's program and there happened to be one of the presenters who was super cute. And I remember somehow the conversation turning and they're like, wow, you're looking really intently when he comes on the screen.

Yeah, because I think he's really amazing and I really like looking at him. And what I realized was I was having an awakening. And so they didn't let me live it down for a while. They're like, oh, we know why John's watching the program so closely. And I'm like, shut up. But you know.

Wilkinson (03:48)
Wow.

Not

to interrupt, but you just made me flash back to something I haven't thought of in 50 years. my sister Joanne was six years older than me. We were at a playground. So I was like six years, five or six years old, something like that. And we were on one side of the Jane Link fence. And this boy, probably 12, 14 years old, rode up, was in the summer in New York, Western New York, and he had no shirt on.

Murf (04:05)
I'm not

Wilkinson (04:24)
chatting and she's, ooh, this cute guy, right? And then he stops the conversation with her and he looks at me and he goes, he goes, what's the matter, kid? Haven't you seen a guy's tits before?

my god. it was, well, and it was, was so dumb, you know, looking back at my life when I finally came out 99, it was like, so was in Europe by myself for almost three weeks through a series of events. And I just looked at the arc of my life, starting with around that time. So around that same time, Harry, my cousin, my cousins came to live with us. So being the entrepreneur that I am.

Murf (04:36)
To which of course you would have responded, no, not yet, but thank you.

Wilkinson (04:59)
I paid Harry in crackers to show me his penis.

Murf (05:02)
Nice, that's a good currency, crackers.

Wilkinson (05:03)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. Anyway, go back to your story. Sorry about that. But it was so funny, it just flashed there, wow.

Murf (05:08)
That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah,

no, I mean, I mean, you can look the guy up if anybody is interested. He was a presenter on this English program called Blue Peter, but he made this. He made a cameo, Blue Peter, Blue Peter. It was like a kids variety show. But you would have to specifically look around 74, 75.

Wilkinson (05:22)
Blue Peter? Wait, blue-

Murf (05:35)
that would have been around my age. And he also made an appearance in Flash Gordon, which came out in in 80, I think. ⁓ God, I mean, if you give me a minute, I'll look it up. he was, ⁓ he was, was, he was hunky for me, for, for this, you know, little four year old kid who wasn't sure what the hell was going on. was hunky.

Wilkinson (05:43)
So do you know his name, the actor?

it's fine. Well, we can all look it up everyone.

Murf (05:59)
At that point, I still didn't really have any languaging around what I meant to be gay and all of that, you know. So finally, I didn't learn any of that languaging until I got to the States. So I was 13 years old when we arrived in the States. And I remember that I

Wilkinson (06:03)
Right?

Murf (06:22)
tested so they put me in school they tested me to see where I would land in school and I tested at a 10th grade level because of my age they put me in 8th grade.

And so I kind of arrived in 1985 in middle school, going to high school. And that's where I started to hear things like fag and all the rest of the lexicon that the kids back then were using. And and then I was like, I think that's me. And then, of course, it then starts. Then the next thing that happens is.

and that means that I'm bad or that's a bad thing. And especially at that time too, you think 85, 86, you know, we're through that. We're like in the heights of the AIDS epidemic. And so it also meant that you were bad. It wasn't a good thing and you were gonna die. So I kept it under wraps as long as I could, but I was never exactly the butchest of guys.

Wilkinson (07:19)
Now wait a minute, so you were how old?

Murf (07:20)
13 years old.

Wilkinson (07:21)
So

were you aware of the AIDS thing going on with gay men at that time when you were that young? Okay.

Murf (07:26)
No, I did not understand that because I

knew, no, I mean, I'd heard of the gay cancer, like, know, I'm 12 years, like in Ireland, 11, 12 years old, I'm more concerned about, you know, building a fort or whatever it might be than, you know, worrying about what the AIDS epidemic meant. Now, once I got languaging around who I was and what I was, then that started to become important.

important because then, you know, this idea of am I going to die if I come out starts to trickle in. there was a couple of years where we were all very, very scared about what was it going to be like. And and then especially moving to then going through high school and then doing college and moving to New York in 92.

you know, we're now starting to enter the protease inhibitor time. So there was a little bit of hope, but there wasn't that much hope. And we were really battling this government that was, you know, didn't care.

Wilkinson (08:29)
All right, so stop for a minute. So how old were you when you had your first gay actually experience with a guy?

Murf (08:35)
So first, So when I was young back in Ireland, I had this friend and we used to play around with each other. And it was very innocent, if you will. mean, you know, we were preteen boys.

Wilkinson (08:39)
Look at that smile.

Murf (08:59)
So you're getting hard at the most inopportune times and showing it off. But we used to play a little bit where we would kind of rub up on each other. That was, I would say, was so innocent, it would be considered gay.

But the first time I actually had an intimate relationship with a man or just intimate relationship sex, I was 17 years old. So I guess I lost my virginity at 16 to a woman at 17 to a man.

Wilkinson (09:32)
⁓ yeah.

Was he an older guy?

Murf (09:37)
Nope, same age as me. It was really weird because at that time there were no apps or anything like that. mean, I was under age 17, so there was nothing I was going to be doing particularly. for some reason, I decided that I was going to go to this dating agency that I had seen in the newspaper. And they were talking about being discreet and, you know, for whatever your lifestyle is, if you want to meet men, if you're a man who wants to meet women, a man who wants to meet men or a woman who wants to meet women.

So I signed up, paid my $350, which is a lot of money at that time.

Wilkinson (10:06)
Wow.

Murf (10:07)
He was the only other young person in the roster. So they put us together and we dated for a couple of weeks. It was fun. And but like then the Pandora's box was open because I'm like, that's what it feels like and that feels good. So I want to do. Yeah, I mean, pretty much, yes, I mean, we would hang out with. ⁓

Wilkinson (10:22)
So when you say dating, you mean you got naked with the guy, right? Yeah.

Murf (10:29)
people's houses and stuff and you we weren't particularly a couple couple but you know, it was my first he knew other gay men gay boys our age and so I kind of started to meet a community there and And it was cute and yeah, it was I mean it was mostly fucking I mean really to me answers it was mostly Connecticut. Yeah

Wilkinson (10:39)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, now this is Connecticut, right? Yeah,

okay, okay.

Wait, stop. We all wanna know how Zohar was it.

Murf (10:55)
it was quite good. mean, it was weird because I had got my memories that are flooding back right now. I had another friend and we were not intimate together, but we were both gay. And he introduced me to gay porn But this is back in the day where you still needed a VCR and a VCR tape. And so there was that was the I was eye opening. And so then

I was like, I want once I'm like, want to do that. So I want to once had the chance to do it. It was, you know, as I said, I've been with a woman and I knew immediately as I started to be intimate with this woman that this was not for me. Like this. mean, I'll do what I need to do, but this is not for me. And I'd already had crushes on guys.

including the high school quarterback. know, so cliche, but I did anyway. ⁓

Wilkinson (11:43)
Okay,

was the gal, was it her idea to get intimate with her? Or, But she wanted it, right?

Murf (11:46)
Which?

It was prom night, of course. It was prom night. Yes,

she wanted to lose her virginity to me on prom night. No, she wanted to lose her virginity to me on ⁓ prom night. And I did my duties. But I knew that I was like, no, this is not, I'm not interested in this at all.

Wilkinson (11:55)
No, wait, not to sound like the me too thing, come on. She wanted it. No. Yeah.

Okay.

Murf (12:13)
And so when I finally was able to be intimate with a guy, was like the final piece kind of fell into place. was like, ⁓ okay, I get it now. Now where I ended up exploring my sexuality has been quite a journey, if you will, through various, you know, elements of our community, fetishes, et cetera.

But at the core of it is just this overwhelming fibrous desire to be with men. Like there's no, like I am not homo flexible or whatever they call it. Like I have no desire to be with a woman at all. You know, when I was working, when I was living in Palm Springs, I used to drive Uber and I have many different stories. And one of the, one of the stories was,

I picked up this couple one night from Rancho Mirage, bringing them back to the, what's that hotel, the Kimpton in downtown. And we're talking and she's got a few drinks in her and he's got a few drinks in him. they're like, so we're talking and are you gay? on, stop it. I'm like, yeah, cause obviously with all the fricking I had like.

Wilkinson (13:08)
Tom Town? Yeah, yeah.

Murf (13:23)
a flag on my word view mirror, et cetera. So we're talking, we're talking, we're talking. So we finally get to the hotel and they're like, how much longer are you working tonight? And I'm like, well, I'm an independent contractor so I can turn the proverbial meter off anytime I want. And so she looks at him and then she looks at me, she goes, listen, we have a little fantasy where my...

Wilkinson (13:27)
Right.

Right.

Murf (13:47)
My boyfriend would like to be with a man. And we really enjoyed our conversation. Do you think you'd like to come upstairs?

Wilkinson (13:55)
wow.

Murf (13:55)
And if he had have been cuter, I probably would.

Wilkinson (13:59)
⁓

Right.

Murf (14:01)
But I said, I said, no, I'm very flattered. said, and honestly, you know, if we were to do that, I would not be partaking in pleasuring you at all. I said, this would be just me and him and you can watch him do whatever you want. said, but having said that, I still have to drive and thank you very much for the offer. Now, if you had have been cuter, I would have done it,

But anyway, yeah, so I knew that I knew then that. ⁓

Wilkinson (14:26)
Wait,

so you got a conscience or what? No, it's just purely because he didn't like his looks. All right. So it wasn't really situational ethics, which is what it sounds like. It was purely physical.

Murf (14:30)
It was just because he was in mentality. If he was cute, I would have doubted

Wilkinson (14:38)
Gotcha. Okay. So wait, that's a cool story. Were there any other wild ones Ubering? I mean, this is bomb strings. Come on.

Murf (14:43)
⁓ gosh,

And so for your listeners and watchers, there used to be this great bar in Palm Springs, it's actually technically in Cathedral City, was the Leather and Fetish Bar. Gosh, it's name now escapes me. ⁓ The barracks, they have barracks. And when you're driving an Uber, you don't know.

Wilkinson (15:01)
Was that the barrack, the barracks? Yeah, okay, okay.

Murf (15:06)
how many people technically are gonna get in your car except for the fact that I was driving a car that the maximum passengers were four. So one in the front, three in the back. But you only get...

Wilkinson (15:16)
So

how were the seven guys that piled into your car?

Murf (15:19)
Well, here's the thing. So

I arrived. Now it happened to be the weekend of the International Bear Convergence. So I arrive at the barracks. Now mind you, you took an Uber and style of me because I had a BMW X3. So it was a nice car that was picking you up, right? But it had a decent amount of room. So this guy walks out of the bar.

Wilkinson (15:26)
my god.

you

Murf (15:43)
It's bear weekend, bear weekend. He is, I would say, clocking in around 300. The leather, the harness and the leather shorts and everything and beer and everything. I'm like, that's fine, that's fine, that's fine. So he starts walking towards me and I rolled out the window and I said, Jeff? And he goes, yes. And I'm like, hey, I'm John, I'm your Uber. And he's like, great, my friends will be right out.

I'm like, yeah, but you're kind of enough for the car right now, but okay. Three, not one, not two, but three friends walk out from the bar.

all about clocking 300. And I'm looking going, where the F am I going to put these guys? So I told them, said, look, I'll cancel it so you won't pay any money. But I think you guys need to get a bigger van. Like the OOXXL, right? And they're like, no, no, no, we'll fit in here. We'll fit in here. And I'm like, my God, OK. So sure enough, they start.

Wilkinson (16:30)
Or a truck. Yeah.

Murf (16:42)
rolling on in. I don't know how they fit all four of them in the car. Now the car did sink about three inches closer to road so I had to drive very carefully but I fit them in and we left the hallway back up into northern Palm Springs and got a good tip so it's fun. But yeah some crazy things happen when you drive when you drive an Uber.

Wilkinson (17:02)
When you were starting this story, I was already feeling very sorry for your BMW's suspension system. ⁓

Murf (17:08)
God, was, they

all got out of the car and I used to call my, well, my car's name was Bradley Maximillian. And I said, Brad, I'm sorry. And Brad was not happy with me for several days afterwards.

Wilkinson (17:22)
Just as a sidelight, I had a, I call him my COVID boyfriend for seven months, but he always named his vehicles. Why do you do that?

Murf (17:29)
I don't know. I've always all the cars I've ever known. Like when I lived in Los Angeles, my car was Beverly because that was the name of the woman who I bought the car from and also Beverly Hills and all that carrying on. And then, I don't know, Bradley Maximilian, I just, you know, it was actually Bradley Maximilian Wickham. So BMW.

Wilkinson (17:40)
Right.

God,

wow. ⁓ that makes sense, okay.

Murf (17:51)
Yeah,

so.

Wilkinson (17:52)
Alright, so when you come out in November, you'll have to look at my Jeep, and name it for me. It's very butch and it's green, like it's a weird green color. Pardon me? I have one on the, yeah, it's a Sahara.

Murf (17:58)
All right, awesome. Sounds good.

Do you have duckies in the front of it? Do you have the ducks in the front? Is it a Jeep brand?

All right, I'll get you some ducks for your hash board.

Wilkinson (18:15)
I actually

had the Beamer and then a Rubicon, Jeep Rubicon, was, I got that for my ex. It was very butch, but it was a two door. This is a four door. But yeah, but I didn't need a Rubicon because I'm not climbing over rocks. So I went for the luxury brand.

Murf (18:19)
Mm.

Mmm. Nice.

So you could

living in Palm Springs, but...

Wilkinson (18:32)
Yeah. Well, you know, I got rid of the beamers, freaking beamers, because, you know, I'm a photographer and I'd go out in the desert. I cannot tell you how many times I sunk into the sand in that freaking beamer and it got, and got stuck, you know, loose sand. You can't get out of it. It's worse than the snow when I was growing up in Buffalo. So, yeah, so I just thought I got to get a bigger four wheel drive up more. So yeah, no problems. And it's great for going to Joshua tree. Were you ever up there?

Murf (18:42)
Sure. Now forget it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Love Joshua's Re. Love it. Yeah. And I've been to and loved going up to. What's the name of that town that's up the up the mountain? ⁓

Wilkinson (19:00)
You love it? Okay.

Pat,

Murf (19:13)
I don't want to just love going to idle world. Go for a weekend, you know, especially during the summer when it got really hot. You go for a weekend and say 30 degree difference.

Wilkinson (19:16)
Yeah.

Yep, Cool. All right, back to the story. We got sidelined there. The Uber stories, I love the Uber stories though. That's a lot of bear meat.

Murf (19:24)
So.

Yeah.

Oh my God,

listen, it just sometimes. And one of the things too is, you know, I don't know if it's still the same way, but I know when I was in Palm Springs, there was this whole, this whole, how would I call it? Not a movement, but a whole annoyance of bachelorette parties showing up on the weekends and just causing complete and utter chaos.

Wilkinson (19:51)
Wow. Yep.

Murf (19:57)
and I would pick up some of them. And so I have four in my car. So I'm to give you the four bridal archetypes that I discovered in my driving these straight women around. First of all, you have the bride who's usually shit faced because they keep feeding her shots and she ate nothing for the entire day because she was at the pool drinking. So you always have to watch for the bride. I always put the bride in the front seat just in case I have to pull over. Then you have the maid of honor who's like

Wilkinson (20:06)
Right, okay.

Yup.

Right.

Right, right.

Murf (20:23)
She's the rabble-rouser. She's the one getting the shots and getting everybody in the party mood. Then there's one of the bridesmaids who's also already married and married young and realized what a mistake she's made and has just spent the entire time bad mouthing her current husband. And then there's this single gal who's a bridesmaid again, but

and she's bitter as all fuck and like, no, I don't want to go there. No, I don't want to go there. And it's like, my God. Those are like the girls and they would talk like I have heard men talk about women. I have heard men talk about men. I have never in my life heard the kind of shit that women talk about men and their husbands. Holy shit.

Wilkinson (21:14)
Yep.

Murf (21:14)
It

was, mean, and they're all out for a good time. Like they may be married, but they're in Palm Springs and they're like, where can we go to meet boys? And I'm like, it's Palm Springs. You have one option. It's called the Village Inn and that whatever it was called, I think it was at the Village Inn, right? Like that's it. I said, otherwise you got to go to Cat City or, you know, head down to even, um.

Wilkinson (21:38)
Right.

Murf (21:40)
I said, I didn't even know, above Cat City, maybe a little bit in Ramoncha, Maraija. And they're all ready to go. And I'm like, okay, I guess what happens in Palm Springs stays in Palm Springs.

Wilkinson (21:44)
Right.

Right?

Well, the two bars you're talking about are hunters and chill. They're the only ones with dance floors. And then I found out recently they advertise in the bridal magazines for this shit. the gay guys, you know, they've always talked about, you know, boycotting them because it's really, they're obnoxious. I mean, they're dancing on the tables and they're grabbing guys. Like if you ever grabbed a woman like they do, it's like really bad.

Murf (21:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

You it's

okay if you want to come in and enjoy the bar and enjoy a drag show and tip a few dancers, but when you take over and you don't realize that this is technically a safe space for us, you know, I know there's two sides of the argument, but I was always on the side of, know what?

Wilkinson (22:19)
Right. Yeah.

Murf (22:34)
If you're going to behave like that, go do it at some straight bar. I'm not really interested in you having to do that here.

Wilkinson (22:41)
So

I have one thought on my observations of these groups, besides they're obnoxious and all that stuff, which I agree with. So if there's ever a woman that hears this podcast and you're straight and you're going to come in a bridal party, two pumps rings. I'm a gay man. Please realize it's all gay guys here. Don't dress like you went to Goodwill and picked out some old something out of the

the garbage bin at Goodwill and you're wearing it around town. They are so ill dressed. It's like fucking amazing. It's so bad.

Murf (23:08)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, on

the flip side, all the ones wearing the cowboy hats, sparkly cowboy hats and the short shorts. I'm like, where are you going? I mean, like I said, the one place, well, there's a couple of kind of straight places as you head out of town a little bit south. And I usually drop them off here and I just get out, just go, get out. Go find your own guy.

But yeah, Fun.

Wilkinson (23:37)
Oh well.

All right, now where do we leave off? Let's see. So you were, where were?

Murf (23:43)
Gosh, so I guess we can get to New York. So I was in my school, college, college, that's where I had my first intimate relationships with men. And so I moved to New York City in 92. I would have been 21 years old. I was cute. I was twinkie. I was a little accent.

Wilkinson (23:47)
Yeah, let's go to New York. Go to New York.

Murf (24:03)
And I was just gobbled up and I loved every minute of it. And then I got involved in the drag scene. And so I did that for a couple of years and, you know, gained a little bit of minor club celebrity, if you will. And, you know, had a...

Wilkinson (24:15)
Wait, what do mean?

What? Wait, Trump's what do you mean by that? I thought you said Trump.

Murf (24:19)
club celebrity?

No, no, it's clubs. No,

Wilkinson (24:23)
my God, no.

Murf (24:24)
No, no. when I was on the scene as a drag queen, I had a little bit of celebrity. So like people would know when my drag name was Cislene. So they know when Cislene was coming. Is Cislene coming? Yes. And there were one of the reasons that they love Cislene coming is because Cislene always brought the Coke. Remember, was the 80s and mid 90s. We were still doing a lot of Coke back then. And so I would bring. So that also made me very popular.

Wilkinson (24:30)
Right.

Murf (24:49)
I did that for a couple of years and then I was like, I gotta get my shit together. Because, you know, I come to New York to be an actor. I've done acting school for a year, but I hadn't been doing any type of auditioning or anything. I just was kind of living, which was fine. I'm glad I did it. I needed to get it out of my system. And then I eventually got into an off-theater, an off-off-Broadway theater company and spent 10 years with them or so. And it was experimental theater. It was awesome.

And then just continued to navigate what was the 90s gay scene in New York City, which was still interesting because we all didn't really have, the cell phone really hadn't been prevalent early 90s. was around mid 90s, I think, when I got my first Motorola StarTAC. So you're still like, you know,

Wilkinson (25:22)
Right.

Murf (25:38)
There's still like Craigslist was a huge thing you take out of that Craigslist.

There used to be those dial up, hook up telephone lines. It's like you would literally dial in and there would be other guys on there and you'd start talking and you're like, you know, what are you looking for? What do you look like? And then either it was a yes or no. So, and then we were still cruising in bars. So when you went to a bar, still cruised. And so people would go home with people from the bars.

organically rather than saying I'm somebody off a hinge at the barn and we've stood home. So there was still people were still cruising. And, you know, it was it was kind of a weird time, too, because we started to come out of the the the the imminent death paradigm of the AIDS epidemic to now we can live with it.

Wilkinson (26:15)
you

Murf (26:31)
if we're on certain medications. And so there were kind of started to be a little bit of an exhale in the community, if you will, especially in like the places like New York and San Francisco, Chicago. There was a little bit of an exhale. And then I, and so then I started doing this career. So I did acting, but I was also managing.

salons and day spas and all this carry on. was, and I like my whole life was being gay. 92, 93, like 92 to, I left for, I left for Los Angeles in 2003.

Wilkinson (26:59)
Wait, wait, was this 92 you said?

Well, here's a bit of trivia for you. just used AI. So in 1992 in New York City, there was 892,479 guys wanting to be actors in New York. I'm kidding.

Murf (27:19)
Yes, and I was

one of them. And I was one of them. That was the weirdest thing ever. So this theatre company that I worked with. I was a member of the theatre company, can actually look me up on their website still. And we went to the town of Woodstock where the owner and director of the theatre company lived.

Wilkinson (27:22)
you

Murf (27:41)
and we did a production of Julius Caesar by Shakespeare. And I played one of the lead roles of Cassius, who's kind of like the shit stirrer, which wasn't very hard for me to act, because I'm a bit of a shit stirrer, you know. And we performed, so we said we did a weekend in Woodstock. So we performed Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and a Sunday,

So Thursday night we do our opening night and there's a big to-do and the mayor's there and all that carry on. That next day, this Friday, I'm just walking through town with some other of the actors. And as I'm walking through town, people are stopping me and going, wow, I saw you last night in that play, you were really good. And I'm like, thank you, thank you, thank you. So as it started,

The first couple of times it happened, was like, that's so weird. That's so cute. By like the fifth or sixth time, I'm like, I know. I know I was brilliant. I'm glad you got to witness that brilliance. But that was kind of fun. But yeah.

Wilkinson (28:40)
So

is that when you moved to Woodstock? So they would keep petting in the back.

Murf (28:44)
Oh, I know.

Woodstock is too sleepy for me, let me tell you. Too sleepy. But yeah, I, so yeah, and then I left and moved to Los Angeles in 03 at the behest of like some agents and managers here. I had a great time when I lived in Los Angeles, but never hit it big, obviously. I mean, I did a lot of background work and

Wilkinson (28:48)
Okay.

Murf (29:09)
One of the things you discover is even if you are very, very talented, it really comes down to who you are. And if you're in the right place at the right time and you look like what the director, producer wants the character to look like. Or the casting director, whether or not you've been on their couch. And, you know, I never understood.

Wilkinson (29:22)
or the casting director, yeah. Yeah.

Well I'm sure you covered that right.

Murf (29:33)
I know it's a completely different story for women and I know this is different story for certain men. But I was never angst ridden about the casting coach. I always was like, all right, if this is the way I do it, fine. I'm still getting something really good out of it. And who knows what will happen after that. So it was pretty awesome.

I mean, I just loved living in Los Angeles and did that for about a year and a couple of months, the two pilot seasons, and then hightailed it back to New York. My family was East Coast. They live in Northern Virginia. My boyfriend at the time, who would end up being my husband, was living in New York City. So it was kind of like, what am I doing?

Looking at it, I was like, I'm not going to make it at this point. Like the ship is kind of sail a little bit. I mean, I could stay here and beat my head against the wall, but I have so much more that I think I could do. So headed back to New York and then started on this career of training and development in retail luxury sales. And so that's been over 20 years now, so 25 years.

Wilkinson (30:47)
So you left the acting totally behind.

Murf (30:49)
I did. mean, although some might say I still act because especially when I do like a classroom training, you know, my costume is my suit. My set is the the the PowerPoint presentation in the room and the lines are what I'm teaching you. So there's an element of performance there. But. ⁓

Wilkinson (31:09)
So do you

do corporate stuff or what's the setting for this?

Murf (31:12)
I do wherever they'll pay me to listen to my bullshit.

Wilkinson (31:16)
Okay, so you are a slut, come on.

Murf (31:18)
Yeah,

this is true. So yeah, it's I work in the luxury retail field where I teach salespeople how to be better salespeople and managers to be better managers. And it just so happens that most of the clients that I work with are high end brands like Dior and Chanel and Fendi and Gucci and Ferrari.

Wilkinson (31:39)
And what

percent of them are gay men? Because in sales, would think gay men would gravitate toward a lot of it.

Murf (31:45)
There is a

decent about but not as much as you would think. The majority is female, straight female. So, but I've run into some guys and there's definitely, you know, there's a, there's a, it's a small community here in that, you know, in that retail space. So there's a lot of people that I know and a lot of gay guys that I know, but ⁓ yeah.

Wilkinson (31:49)
really?

Really? Meh.

So when you say here, mean New York City? Okay.

Murf (32:12)
Although you go to Los Angeles too, there's like a whole, I mean, like if there's, if there's, you know, I don't know, how would I say it? If there's product that needs to be purchased and sold, you're going to have gay men buying it and gay men selling it to them. So.

So that's a little bit about ⁓ about that. So ⁓

Wilkinson (32:30)
So

what's the jump from acting to sales? How did that happen?

Murf (32:36)
I mean, pretty much I was looking at...

I have these skills like Liam Neeson does in that movie. I have a certain set of skills. I have no problem getting up in front of people and talking. I have no problem reading a room. have no problem in, you know, I'm quite highly, very high emotional intelligence.

And so I knew that I had all of these skills and attributes. And once I got back into like working for retail and going to training classes, I'm like, I could do this and I'd make it more fun. And so that's kind of what I that's how that transition happened. Like I have these skills, I'm going to use them. Oh, this is the best way for me to use them. So that's how I ended up in the learning and development arena, if you will, in.

retail sales.

Wilkinson (33:25)
Now do you go to different brands to teach their salespeople or not?

Murf (33:28)
It depends.

Yeah, I mean, so right now I'm in the midst of a big project with Ferrari where they are shifting their in showroom experience. I did a project for Fendi a couple of months ago where they wanted their regional managers, not their store manager, but their regional managers to run their businesses better as entrepreneurs. So I taught them that. I worked with

Wilkinson (33:51)
Did

Ferrari give you a sample as a bone?

Murf (33:53)
Ferrari did,

in fact none of them have. no, Ferrari did give me a mug and a flag and a hat.

Wilkinson (33:56)
What?

That is important. Wow.

Murf (34:02)
Yes. I was like, this is great.

Thanks. But, but yeah, it's.

Wilkinson (34:07)
You gotta

look at it this way, they make great garage sale items.

Murf (34:10)
They sure do.

Wilkinson (34:11)
Wow.

Murf (34:12)
So yeah, I work with those brands and whoever wants to, like I said, I subcontract from this agency out of Switzerland. So most of my work comes from them. But then if anybody else, I've had a couple of my own clients, more kind of smaller luxury houses, if you will, or luxury.

vendors that are not necessarily part of a large brand, but they still want to be able to deliver that elevated experience. And so that's what ends up me doing.

in that regard.

Wilkinson (34:41)
How long

you gonna do that before you retire?

Murf (34:44)
I mean, I would like to try and retire around 62, 65 if I have to, but 62 would be my wish. And that's eight years from now. So I'll give myself another eight years. So if somebody asked me in an interview, where do you see yourself for five years? I'm like finalizing my retirement and my purchase of my property.

Wilkinson (34:55)
Okay.

Right.

Murf (35:05)
South of France, that's where I'm gonna be. Yeah, South of France.

Wilkinson (35:07)
Seriously, that's where you want to be?

Okay, I'm jealous.

Murf (35:12)
Yeah, it's, I've always, I mean, I studied French in college. I've always loved France. I worked for a brand for many years. Luxatown is the name of the brand. It's a skincare brand. And they're based out of Provence in the south of France. And so I went several times there and I've been all over France, but I just, there's something about that region of France, you know, that just draws me. And so that's where I want to end up being.

Wilkinson (35:29)
Right.

It's really weird because I haven't been a lot, but I've been to Europe like three times. But I feel more at home in Europe than I do here. So the only thing I think is I must have been there in a former life or something. I don't know. But I just am so comfortable there. Yeah.

Murf (35:48)
I can see that, can see it. Yeah,

yeah, I can see that, I can see that knowing what I know of you. I can see that. I love it when I go back because I'm like, shit, right, this is what it's like to live in like a reasonable environment with people who actually can put more than two words together in a sentence and be coherent.

Wilkinson (36:09)
So what you've

been to other countries, Ireland and France, where else?

Murf (36:12)
gosh,

so I mean the short list would include pretty much almost every EU country. France, definitely a lot. Italy, a lot. I've also been to, and this is all for work, I've been to Japan twice. Taiwan, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, no, no, Dubai.

in UAE and then Qatar. I've been to, what the hell is the name of the Qatari capital? my god. Anyway, but anyway. ⁓

Wilkinson (36:40)
Well,

I'm a geographically illiterate American like most are, so don't ask me.

Murf (36:43)
Yes.

And so I've obviously been to Canada and several of South America. I I lived in Mexico for six months. I mean, that was kind of awesome.

Wilkinson (36:53)
Wow,

I like Mexico.

Murf (36:55)
my God, talk about, ⁓ I got into some trouble in Mexico. You know, there's like, there's that Christopher Cross song that I, that I got to ride like the wind to get to the border of Mexico. I had to ride like the wind out of Mexico because I was like, I got to get out here. Cause it was just, it was just too many. these, you know, I got involved with some boys that were just like, they were not taking no for an answer. And I'm like, I'm not going to be your sugar daddy.

Wilkinson (36:57)
⁓ You what?

Mm-hmm.

Why? Why?

Wow.

They weren't selling you jewelry on the beach, were they?

Murf (37:22)
And no, they were not. were selling

me, they were definitely selling me what some people might consider jewels.

Wilkinson (37:28)
⁓

Murf (37:32)
But they were not selling. They were not, no. They were, but it was fun. I loved it. I loved it.

Wilkinson (37:35)
Speaking, wow.

I bought, was in Cabo years ago before it became popular. And I remember buying a bunch of jewelry and my God, my skin turned green. Yeah, ⁓ it wasn't what they said. But speaking of Europe, so one of my favorite things, I was in Italy. So you gotta remember I'm from Seattle where Starbucks originated, right?

Murf (37:43)
Yeah.

Yeah, of course. Nope, nope.

Yes.

Wilkinson (38:00)
So I go into the, little coffee place and I order my normal thing. And now I drink tea. don't do this, but I went in and I ordered my normal, which was a single tall latte, non-fat decaf one scored a hazelnut, no foam, 180 degree double cup, please. And he hands me an espresso. Go away American, go away.

Murf (38:18)
Yes,

I remember when Starbucks first started to get big and I was on a trip with some people and they went into a coffee shop, a cafe and ordered a coffee to go and cafe to import. And at that point in French culture, they're like, what? And they're like,

Do you have coffee to go? And so they said one minute and they went and they brought back a bag of coffee.

and they're gonna sell them the coffee beans. And she's like, no, no, no, I want the coffee to go. And she's like, and they're like, why? Just sit down and drink the coffee. Like, where are going? Why do you have to walk around with it? Now, of course, Starbucks is all over Paris and you know, most of the Parisians are like, you know, cause I get it. Sit down, relax, have your coffee, you know.

But yeah, Europe is always fun to go to. Yeah, Europe is always fun to go to. I've been there a lot.

Wilkinson (39:06)
You're making me miss that. I really miss it there. Well, France is

a special place because that's where I came out to myself. I was in France. Because I went with two friends and it didn't work out. One guy was a jerk. I said, go. I was there for almost three weeks by myself, traveling around. that's where I looked at my life on the Ark and said, but it was in France.

Murf (39:15)
⁓

Yeah, I had a situation where we went when we so I mentioned very briefly, so I'll make it I'll do it as quick as possible. So I met the guy would eventually marry in 2000 and we dated for pretty much up until 2015 and then we got married and then we were married until 2022. So we've been together like.

Wilkinson (39:52)
Wow.

Murf (39:54)
obviously 22 years or something like that anyway. So we did a lot of traveling together and one of the things that we loved to do was we've done it a few times. We rent a villa in Tuscany, Italy, and we invited people over to, you know,

Wilkinson (39:57)
Right.

Murf (40:17)
enjoy because it was a seven bedroom, seven bathroom villa. So we paid for it. Come on over. My ex is a chef, so he wanted to do a full Tuscan menu for the entire time. It was summer, so we were all eating alfresco. I mean, it was just gorgeous. But to your point, the reason I bring it up is when I heard you say like it didn't work out with the two guys. There was two guys in our group that were invited.

Wilkinson (40:29)
my god.

Murf (40:42)
And for whatever reason, they just did not jive with the rest of the group. It's the problem. It's a problem when you invite people from different parts of your life thinking they all like me, they like each other. And it's not the case. so they decide to leave. And so let's say it was a Tuesday. And so we get up really early in the morning on Tuesday because the rest of us are going to go take the train into Rome and do the day in Rome. So.

Wilkinson (40:52)
Right.

Murf (41:05)
They get on the train, but like in a separate car, like they weren't talking to us. Like it was the weirdest thing. Anyway, we get to Rome. I think we might've said bye. And then we met on our merry way. Now there's, if you can imagine, so that's 14. So it takes you, there's 12 of us, right? There's 12 of us in this group walking around. And we end up at the Coliseum. And as we're at the Coliseum,

One of our friends noticed that they're at the Coliseum and they kind of turn and look and they see us and she turns back she goes, my god, they're there, they're there, we should hide. And I'm like, there's 12 of us, where are we going to hide? We're outside the Coliseum, we ain't got nowhere to go except inside the Coliseum, which is where they're going.

And it was so, I understand, mean, it was funny. It's funny, you know, when you have an energy in a space like that, that is just not jiving with the rest of the energy, how it can really inform everybody else's experience. And, you know, I've run into this a lot where you think, you you put people together that seem to have a common purpose or a common thread line.

and they

They don't actually know one of the things I forget sometimes is not everybody needs to get along. And number two, just because we all, you know, just because we are gay doesn't mean I have to like you. Like we have it in common. just but I haven't talked about your personality yet. So doesn't mean I have to like you. You know, so. But yeah, that was kind of funny. There's 12 of us. How are we?

Wilkinson (42:25)
Right.

Murf (42:46)
Where are we supposed to go? That was it. That was it. And then we went back to we were in Arezzo, which is outside of Florence.

Wilkinson (42:48)
So did you bump into him again or not? So that was it, okay.

So what year was this?

Murf (42:59)
We did it twice, so that would have been...

Gosh.

Maybe, maybe 2010, 2011, and then again in 2018.

Wilkinson (43:06)
And why didn't you invite me?

Murf (43:08)
I didn't know you that, and otherwise I would have.

Wilkinson (43:10)
Details, details, come on.

Hey, we're gonna be wrapping up here, but I wanna ask you one more thing. So tell me a couple things you've learned in your life that you live by.

Murf (43:23)
gosh, things that I live by.

If you like something and you see it, it. Because I can guarantee if you go back hoping it's still there, it won't be. How does that measure into your life? If you have an opportunity to do something, don't second guess it. Just do it. Because you may not have that opportunity to present itself to you. So my first thing I've learned is to be outgoing and take a chance, regardless of how it makes me feel. ⁓

Wilkinson (43:29)
you

Hmm.

Murf (43:52)
So that will be one thing. Second thing is I'm not responsible for how you feel about me. You can only be responsible about how I'm showing up in your world. You don't have to like me. That's OK. There used to be a time where I wanted everybody to like me. And I realized that that's ⁓ a fool's game. So you don't have to like me. You just have to respect me and I'll respect you.

Don't underestimate the power of stopping to smell the roses. even if it's 20, 30, 40 seconds with you in a contemplative space in your mind, that can reset your day if you need it to. It's just sex, relax.

Wilkinson (44:27)
Yeah.

Murf (44:31)
Like it's just sex right now. Like, I mean, if it develops into something fine, but right now it's just sex. So there's that, that's as well.

And you don't have to have a lot of friends. Just know that the ones that you have, make sure that they are worthy of being in that small group. And when they're no longer...

giving you or being part of a productive part of your existence, it's OK to let them go. those are some of the things that I've I've learned and I continue to learn a little bit. But, at this point, there's I know what aggravates me and annoys me, and I try not put myself in those situations. And then when I do get aggravated and annoyed, I really am very quick to be like, why are you getting aggravated right now? Why are you winding yourself up? There's no need.

Wilkinson (44:55)
Wow.

Murf (45:13)
There's no reason. I hope that, you know, I hope sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I'm a nasty bitch.

Um, and, uh, my ex are, yes, of course. My ex reminds me of this all the time. We're very good friends. My ex, he's like, you're such a Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, he goes, you're such a bitch. I'm like, you should know you live with me.

Wilkinson (45:22)
But we love you anyway.

Now is this the X that you had for 22 years? Is that the same one? Wow.

Right.

Murf (45:40)
So yeah, and keep your eyes and ears open because you never know what you'll see and never know what you'll hear. That's what I, that's kind how I navigate things right now.

Wilkinson (45:49)
Very cool. Hey, Murph. Thank you. It's been real. I'll see you at our next meeting that we're in. Take care. Bye.

Murf (45:50)
Now.

You're very welcome, Malkan.

Sounds good. Awesome. Bye.