The Chief Psychology Officer

Ep87 Why Today’s Leaders must be both Ruthless and Caring with Amy Walters Cohen

• Dr Amanda Potter CPsychol • Season 4 • Episode 87

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Complexity is rising, expectations are colliding, and the old playbook is running out of pages. We sit down with author and applied researcher Amy Walters Cohen to unpack the core idea behind her book Ruthlessly Caring to understand how leaders can deliver more value when they replace either-or choices with both-and mindsets that match today’s messy reality.

We start by mapping the megatrends shaping work for example, ageing populations, climate pressure, AI, regulatory shifts, and why they demand a step change in how we decide, communicate, and execute. From there, we break down five paradox mindsets that help leaders hold tension without freezing: ruthlessly caring (making hard calls with real compassion), confidently humble (projecting credible direction while admitting what you don’t know), politically virtuous (coupling ethics with savvy influence), ambitiously appreciative (sustaining high standards with renewal and gratitude), and responsibly daring (protecting the enterprise while innovating with smart guardrails).

Amy shares practical ways to find the sweet spot for each paradox, not a bland compromise, but just enough of both poles to work under pressure. We talk psychological safety, radical candour, and how senior behaviour sets unwritten rules faster than any policy. You’ll hear how to diagnose overplayed and underplayed tendencies, why team diversity helps but doesn’t replace personal growth, and how to start with small, targeted habits that compound into culture change. Whether you lead a regulated function, a fast-scaling team, or a complex portfolio, you’ll come away with a sharper language for trade-offs and a toolkit for better decisions.

Enjoy the conversation? Subscribe, leave a quick review, and share this episode with a leader who’s balancing tough choices this week. Your feedback helps more people find thoughtful, evidence-based leadership content.

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Caitlin Cooper:

Hello and welcome to the Chief Psychology Officer Podcast, the show where we dive deep into the psychology behind leadership, behavioural change, and high performance. I'm Caitlin, and today we have an incredible guest joining us, Amy Walters Cohen, who will be talking about her book, Ruthlessly Caring. Amy, I've read your book and I'm really looking forward to picking your brain today. So thank you so much for being a guest today on the podcast.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Thank you for having me. You're very welcome, and it's an absolute pleasure to be here chatting with you today.

Caitlin Cooper:

And hello, Amanda. Welcome, Amanda.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Thank you, Caitlin. Delighted to be here. First day back from holiday. Hard to do back from holiday, but what a great thing to do on my first day back. Get rid of those holiday blues.

Caitlin Cooper:

So, Amanda, why don't we start with you telling us how you convinced Amy to come on the podcast with us today?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Well, I'm not sure it was much convincing. I just asked her. So Amy and I met at the ABP conference that has just passed. Amy was one of the speakers on the main stage, and I went to her session. And I love the title because the title was all about ruthlessly caring. So I was like, that sounds amazing because that really appeals to me because we often talk about being ruthless with clients, which can undermine psychological safety. And we talk about the importance of caring, which can enhance psychological safety. So I was like, I love this, I'm going to go to the session. And the session was amazing. So the reason I thought Amy would be great is because she's an author, she's an applied researcher, and I felt that her research really fit with our thinking and the future of BTalent and Zircon.

Caitlin Cooper:

Well, yeah, I can definitely see why you'd invite her then. So before we jump in, I have a quick request to our listeners. If you do enjoy listening to our podcast, then please do hit subscribe so you never miss an episode and miss out on hearing from our amazing guests like Amy. And if you want to keep the conversation going, connect with us on LinkedIn. Just search for either myself, Caitlin, Amanda, or Amy. Plus, you can check out our website at thecepo.co.uk for more resources. And if you like what you hear, then please do give us a rating so that we can reach more people. Five stars, please. Five stars.

Dr Amanda Potter:

As long as we deserve it.

Caitlin Cooper:

Great. So back to the podcast. Amy, could you please introduce yourself to our listeners?

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, sure. And it definitely was an easy settle to join your podcast today. And just to give a bit of introduction, I guess, to my background, it's in experimental psychology and sport and performance psychology. And I spent the past 10 years working in applied occupational psychology. So this podcast definitely felt like a good fit and an easy cell to come on and join. I'm incredibly passionate about helping leaders navigate the people side of their organization, getting the best out of themselves as leaders, and creating an environment and the conditions where individuals and teams can really perform and be at their best, evolving all the time in the direction the organization needs. I spent several years leading a research team for Lane Four, and then three leading a research team within EY and published a book called Ruthlessly Caring in 2023, which has been very well received and one business book of the year. I've also recently set up my own research agency called Human Dynamics Research, which focuses on helping equip leaders with the latest evidence and best practice thinking so they can make sure that their learning and change initiatives really have that people factor baked in and that robust evidence-based approach on how to shift behaviour and people's experience within their organization in the direction that they need.

Dr Amanda Potter:

We're so aligned because we're a research-based organization. That's the one thing I think we're the most proud of is that we don't just pick up other people's research and theories and apply them without really understanding them. What we do is we really scan the business environment for really good ideas and those thought leaders who are going to challenge our thinking. And I think you're one of them. So that's what I really like about your thinking and about your research, because it helps to build on ours. And I love the fact that you're evidence-based. Professor Rob Briner will always challenge us to say, are we truly evidence-based? But I think as much as we can, given that we're consultants working in industry, we're as evidence-based with all the work that we can.

Caitlin Cooper:

Amanda, you mentioned, you know, you feel like we're aligned, Amy's work and our work, but is there anything else, I guess, that when you first met Amy back in the conference, or even from the book actually, that you liked in terms of her thinking that drew you in?

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think there was one statement that really resonated with me was that leaders cannot tackle new challenges with old thinking and approaches. I completely agree, and we're not the only ones who say that to clients. What got you here will not get you there. I actually like Amy's way of saying it better. In Amy's words, the game has changed. A new form of leadership is required to take on the scale of complexity and the speed that is required for leaders. If you think about Mike from Network Rail, who was a previous guest with Project Speed on episode 73, he talked about the 3,700 project teams across Network Rail who are trying to reduce the project spend from 4 billion to 2 billion and they've already had a saving of 1.5 billion and they want to deliver twice as much in half the time. I mean, in that sort of situation, we need leaders to think and act differently, and that's why I love this book.

Caitlin Cooper:

Don't know if, Amy, you have any thoughts on that before?

Amy Walters Cohen:

Um no, I just think it's incredible what leaders are being asked to do these days. It's sort of that constant amplified request to do more with less. And I think that's yeah, it really does feel like there's a step up and a game change, which is I think why the book is resonating so much with leaders. It's challenging and difficult what they're being asked to deliver on multiple fronts and in multiple ways at a scale and speed that's unprecedented. However, like this book is just one part of the whole leadership conversation, and there's loads of different fantastic books out there and words of advice, and this is one tactical way that leaders can look at the tough decisions they face. But I think, yeah, it's a it's a big complex challenge that that they're grappling with in any ways which we can help leaders equip themselves and to make that next step change.

Caitlin Cooper:

Well, there was lots of things that I took from your book as well. By the way, we will throughout this episode be referring back to Amy's book. So I have my copy next to me, Amanda. I think you've got yours somewhere by you as well.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I have indeed.

Caitlin Cooper:

Um, but you classify the macro changes in businesses, economy, and world sectors into 12 megatrends that are impacting how we need to lead people in businesses. So I wondered if you could give a few examples of those.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yes, of course. Um, the mega trends. So these are basically the driving forces behind why leadership needs to evolve and what's causing that gear shift in expectations and um the complexity of challenges leaders are facing, why the game has changed, um, as Amanda put it earlier. I can't go into all of them, but to pick out a few, one of the ones that often leaders are very interested in is this aging populations and uh the multi-generational workforce. So the age structure of our society is steadily shifting. In 1950, the median age was 23, so half the population was younger than 23, half older. Today that median is 30, and by the end of the century it's forecast to be 40. Because what you've got is improvements in healthcare, people are living longer, there's also declining birth rates with people opting to have fewer children or no children at all. And by 2050, it's projected that in Europe and North America, one in every four people could be age 65 or over, so you're getting these sort of super aged populations within countries. So the workforce basically is more age diverse than ever before, creating lots of challenges and opportunities and redefining career paths and patterns and talent strategy. Another big one is the climate change. Um, so again, a big one to get into. But even if leaders implemented all the climate and energy policies in place, it won't be enough to keep the rise below 1.5 degrees C. So if we did everything, we're on track for a 2.5, 2.9 rise. So we are going to see several tipping points triggered, causing more droughts, more heat waves, more floods, wildfires, flooding, food insecurity, then sort of that all mixed in with inequality. And we're all going to need to face into that, but leaders are going to have to lean into it even more, if not driving the change needed, certainly navigating the fallout. You can see workforce and customer expectations on sustainability and sustainable action shifting, and that expectation to drive change and review business models, review value change, and take that bold targeted action really coming into play. There's lots more, like you said, in 12 megatrends are highlighted in the book, advancing technology, AI is currently redefining the world of work in a very dramatic way. You've got lots of political volatility, you've got social media, which can sort of build or destroy a career overnight, you've got talent shortages, and again, that high level of inequality running throughout. And I'm conscious that I sound a bit like a prophet of doom and gloom, which I don't mean to, but it's more about looking at the current landscape that leaders are operating in. And these challenges are big and they are complex, and it is a difficult world to navigate. So it's about helping leaders step up and navigate that challenge and those tensions effectively.

Dr Amanda Potter:

What's really interesting for me is that when we published a white paper in 2013 looking at the top external macro challenges of that time, we only had five. We purposefully looked at five micro and five macro, and all five are still in your list. But when I reflect on the first two that you talked about, which were age and climate, what I was thinking about as you were talking is the fact that not every economy or not every country are as focused on those things or believe that they're issues. Some countries are espousing that climate isn't a problem, that it's all fake news, and that diversity isn't an issue either, that we shouldn't worry about diversity at all, that diversity should not be an agenda for success or for the future. So I just find it fascinating that you know your macro trends, your mega trends, in some markets, some economies will be a priority, in others, it just may not be.

Amy Walters Cohen:

100%, which is gonna cause the trends to keep amplifying. So, like you, I keep checking in on the trends and see are they changing? Are there ones that weren't captures that should be captured? Are there any ones that are reversing maybe or going in different directions? And I think it is a lot of the will and responsibility to act on some of these changes comes into the responsibly daring mindset. And I think it is fascinating because one way to cope with challenges that are incredibly big and complicated and need to be dealt with is to ignore them or to minimize the impact, pretend they're not happening, pretend the impact won't be as severe as the evidence suggests it will be. Um, so it's one tactic, but it definitely, if you want to drive responsible action to make the difference that's needed, then you need to be able to look the facts in the face and take action based on that and lean into accepting that reality as it is rather than minimising it or pretending like it's not happening. No hits in the sand, then. Yeah, exactly. You can and you'll be fine. That's the thing. Your generation will probably be fine, but you're not being responsible for the next generation. So indeed.

Caitlin Cooper:

Amy, another thing you refer to is a fundamental shift in thinking and decision making. Can you help us understand that a bit more in terms of what you're referring to?

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, so the biggest fundamental shift in thinking and decision making in the book is towards the both and approach. The sort of context leaders are in is very dynamic and complex with lots of both and requirements being put on leaders. Um so the way that they lead and their identity and their approach and their decisions needs to step up and match that requirement. Amidst all the complexity and ambiguity, it can be very tempting to look for straightforward binary either-or answers. So you just have a one-trick approach, a one sort of every problem is a nail and you've got a hammer to fix it. But this book urges leaders to really expand their approach and thinking so that they can deliver both and on multiple fronts. Throughout the book, each mindset is sort of also teed up with why it's so important to get that mindset right in the current context and what the outdated thinking looks like versus a more contemporary mindset and leadership approach that will prove to be effective over the long term.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And that kind of helps the listener to understand that the whole book is all about these mindsets. It's all about understanding the balance between each of the mindsets and how we need to shift our thinking. And I think the book really helped me to understand the complexity of industry with your image showing how the 12 mega trends interact and why it's both and rather than either or. And you talked about the washing machine effect or the spider web, which really fits the point that the challenges are non-linear, they're unpredictable, and they all interact. And there's this mess, really, if you like, this complex environment in which we work requires us to deal with each of these different paradoxes, which are competing with each other and require different ways of thinking and acting and behaving as leaders that don't necessarily, as you said, be the opposite of one another, but they may not feel natural to be ruthless and caring, as the one which we get started with. But yeah, that helped me understand why this is so important.

Caitlin Cooper:

So to summarize that, then Amy, the essence of your book is essentially paradoxial environments require paradoxial leadership.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, exactly. And um, just to also give a bit of a flavour for it, we keep mentioning the sort of tensions that leaders are grappling with, but um, basically sort of like we want you to deliver the long-term sustainability goals and we need you to deliver today and get the results out today. We want you to create a sense of belonging and inclusion where everyone feels included, and we also want you to have a strong brand and identity so people know where they are and how they fit in and what it is they're fitting into. So I think there's lots of different tensions that leaders will be feeling, pull them in two different directions, but they have to come together coherently. And kind of Darwin logic, that if you've got an environment where paradoxes and tensions are rife and amplified, which they are when an environment's very complex, it makes sense that the leaders who thrive best are going to be the ones who are inherently paradoxical in their own thinking and approach. And to sort of help clarify a little bit, so we're all on the same page, a paradox is a situation in which two seemingly contradictory yet independent states need to coexist over time for success to occur. I'm conscious that's a very wordy mouthful of a definition, but basically it's sort of recognising the need for two things that seem contradictory, but they aren't. You can have both, and enabling those two things to coexist in order to elevate performance to the next level.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And I think ruthless and caring, that's the perfect example of it. I know we're going to go through all of them in this pod, but that's a perfect example, as that's going to be the title of this podcast. And I love this because as a builder and researcher of online questionnaires, and having done that for a big part of my career, we struggle with people wanting to know their profile and understand which of the two options they sit in if it's on a one to ten scale. And understanding that some people are not necessarily very clearly on one end of a scale or another, that actually it's a combination of traits or preferences or strengths or whatever the question is that we're measuring. It's that combination that really helps us understand the complexity of that individual. And you can be both ends of a scale because often, like you say, they're not necessarily fully two ends of continuum, they're not fully opposite. So I really like that.

Caitlin Cooper:

And I think the book itself is really well written in terms of how you explain all the concepts. So it'll be good in a minute, we'll get you to kind of take us through those kind of five paradoxical mindsets that you've identified. But I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed it as well because I found it really relatable in one way or another, whether that's checking myself and where I sat on that continuum, but also thinking about the leaders that I've come across and you know, even family members and you know, the work that they do in the kind of leadership style and that they kind of portray. So definitely you can see how it kind of gets people to think, I guess, more openly, more differently. So, Amy, why don't we go with that then? Why don't you start by kind of taking us through the five different mindsets that you identified?

Amy Walters Cohen:

Absolutely, and definitely I think um your point about it resonating and that there being lots in there that does relate. People can relate to, I think the book is sort of aimed and targeted at senior leaders, C-suite leaders, but there's it's a very human um book and human experience and human paradoxes that I think you can recognise no matter what level you are within an organization or what sector you work in. I they do seem to resonate across the board and sort of something in that all individuals can connect into. In terms of talking you through the five paradoxical mindsets that are called out in the book, there's no particular order of importance. Ruthlessly caring is the title and the headline mindset, but that's mainly for marketing purposes. Um, it's not necessarily more important than the others. It was just more catchy. But it ruthlessly caring is basically about how leaders need to be willing to make tough decisions that have a human impact in order to drive results, and they also need to show compassion to people no matter what. Sometimes doing tough things, making tough calls, but also always being there for people and showing compassion. So perhaps doing tough things, but in a still in that human way, not just disconnecting from the impact and the fallout.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I really like it, and I think it's really important to be both decisive and caring. I completely agree. But I think the ruthless language is very interesting because we use ruthless in a negative way. We talk about it as being a driver of low psychological safety, or relentlessness or ruthlessness as being a driver of low psychological safety. But to survive in this environment, they have got to be relentless and they have got to be ruthless. And that's why the caring bit is so important, because actually, kindness and care is something that's so fundamental and so important in creating an inclusive, resilient, psychologically safe environment because otherwise, what happens is we don't activate the vagus nerve, which is the nerve of compassion. So, therefore, we're not kind to one another or to ourselves, and our resilience drops, and we are less likely to be able to cope. So I find it fascinating and brilliant that that's the first one. And I really love the fact that it's really made me think about it, about the organizations, because whilst we use that language negatively of relentless or ruthless, actually, I recognise organizations need to be susvive, and so therefore to get there, I think they need kindness and care.

Caitlin Cooper:

I was wondering, because when I was thinking about that one, I wondered if you'd come across Kim Scott's radical candor and the research around that. And I wondered, you know, how that comes into play with this one, because it was making me think about that.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, it is interesting. The sort of who are you doing things for? And the ruthlessness in this mindset is definitely it's an interesting word. I think it does get people's it evokes a certain emotional response when you tell leaders that you need to be ruthless. But um, like Amanda says, I think it's something that faces into the reality of what is asked and expected of leaders in order to survive and perform and do well in this environment. And in this sense, when paired with compassion, it is slightly more that task-focused, performance-focused leadership rather than embracing all elements of what ruthless can mean. So it's definitely in that way. And paired with interestingly, I think with the radical candor, it's the compassion also has an element of hardness in it. If you do compassion well, you sometimes need to be very able to step into zones that are not comfortable, to tell people feedback that they might not want to hear, but they need to hear. And often when you feel like you're being compassionate, it's easy to do what's easy for you and what's comfortable for you and what makes the whole situation easier, rather than thinking, what does this person need? And like, how can I show up and support what they actually need to perform better, to develop, to like get through this patch, rather than what your tendency might sort of push you to do as what's most comfortable for you and the situation. So I think there is that blend in both of the mindsets really together, right?

Dr Amanda Potter:

Interestingly, we talk about being kind versus being nice. That's kind of how we refer to what you've just described when we're talking to clients, interestingly.

Amy Walters Cohen:

So let's talk about the next one. The next one is confidently humble. So this is about leaders being both a confident and inspiring individual that can lead people through uncertainty and change. And it's sort of like, well, I trust where they're going and where they're taking and what taking us and where they're leading this ship, whilst also at the same time being the vulnerable team player. Sort of a lot of Brene Brown's work comes into this space, admitting that they don't have all the answers, admitting that they do make mistakes, and then being able to harness all the unique strengths and talents of those around them. So knowing that actually to get where we want to go, we're not, I'm not going to be able to get there on my own. We are going to need to do this as a full team.

Dr Amanda Potter:

That's amazing. And we did some research on executive presence versus inspirational leadership many years ago. And that really resonates given that title as well. Because on the one hand, we wanted people who are confident and powerful, which was the executive presence bit, but we also needed that sense of humility in the inspirational leadership bit. People need to be taken on a journey inspired by, not told by. So that really fitted. Is that the right word? That really fitted. It really fit with our research.

Angela Malik:

Do you know if people in your organization feel safe to speak up about their concerns and ideas? We often talk about the importance of psychological safety on this podcast. But did you know we offer a diagnostic tool to help measure the climate of psychological safety within your team? When your people feel empowered to speak up, innovation has the chance to thrive. Visit the CPO.co.uk to learn more about the B-Talent Suite or get in touch with me on LinkedIn. That's Angela Malik, M-A-L-I-K. Open the door to the art of the possible today.

Caitlin Cooper:

With the Confidently Humble, and I might be getting this mixed up because admittedly, I think I read the book about a month ago, and some has been very busy, so my brain's like sometimes like a fish, it forgets. But was it I was thinking, you know, if you had any leaders in mind, the well-known leaders that come to mind when you think of Confidently Humble. And I feel like was it Barack Obama or have I made that up?

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, there are um leaders that are pulled out in in different chapters. Some of them are like leaders who have actually interviewed, and some of them are just sort of famous leaders and uh figures who I think yeah, it's always interesting because no leader's gonna be perfect, but I think there are certain leaders who do certain things very well. And I think especially with the confidence, I personally always think Barack Obama gave off a very confident, charismatic air where you felt like you could trust where he's going, even like little touches like jogging down the um plane whenever whenever he gets out of Air Force One. It's like this uh he's on top of things, you know, it gives off a certain air. And you also had um references to Nelson Mandela, who was able to exude a lot of confidence for people when he was in prison, even if he didn't really feel it. And again, he didn't focus on necessarily the outcome, but he could hold his head up and how that presence that he had gave people a certain confidence and sense of belief, and it's not necessarily connected to how he was feeling at that time, but it was something he appreciated he needed to portray. And I think you can definitely see different leaders, political or otherwise, doing that in different different ways. Thank you. So, what's the third then? Third one is politically virtuous, so this is about leaders doing the right thing at the first opportunity, which I think we always like to think. Well, we're the type of person who has a good moral compass and we like to see the first thing the first time round. But I think ethically we're in a lot of uncharted territory at the moment. So this mindset is all about blending in that political savvy and that political skill that leaders have always needed to get the power, to get the resources, to get the influence they need to make a difference, blended with that strong moral compass and ethical awareness. So doing the right thing and being savvy in the circumstances and know when to make a practical compromise to get some progress. That sort of balance leaders have going on. Fourth one is ambitiously appreciative, which again, I think some people have been challenged always is quite similar to ruthlessly caring, being ruthless, being ambitious, but they are slightly different things. And the same with appreciative and caring, but they are slightly different things. So this is very much about organizations, they've long had this sort of busy cultures, and in I think in society we have this hustle culture of idolizing long hours, relentless drive, that sort of all-in Rocky style pursuit of goals. And this mindset is about saying, well, yeah, kind of in this environment, you do need to be ambitious. You need to be striving for ambitious goals and giving 110% to make them work and being relentless in a way. And paired with that, you also need to appreciate how work isn't everything. There's there's more to life. Otherwise, you're just going to burn yourself out and burn out the people that you lead. Sort of pairing that ambitious and relentless drive that you need to succeed with an ability to pause and take time and sort of really place value on your own and others' well-being. Yeah, the bigger identity that people have and that you have. So I think that that blend is actually quite tricky to get right in practice.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think that's a really good point. I think, and actually, you've corrected my language because I used the words ruthless and relentless interchangeably earlier. So the first one was ruthless, and this is where relentless fits in. It's more the ambitiousness, it's the driving and the pushing, isn't it, rather than the ruthless, is more about actually how you interact with people. So that's helped me understand that difference, actually.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, 100%. The ambitious is the persistent and generalized habit of striving. It's something that if you are ambitious, you're probably ambitious on multiple things. And it doesn't matter how much you succeed, you're just going to keep chasing more.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And this really fits with psychological safety, actually, because we literally have this is a scale on our psych safety questionnaire, which is about appreciating others versus driving and being relentless, which is a the language is incredibly similar, actually.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Fab. And the fifth one is responsibly daring. Um, and this mindset actually generates a huge amount of interest from organisations. And it's all about how in today's fast-changing world leaders can be or need to be both the steady, safe, responsible steward who's focused on making a difference. Why is the business here? Why does it exist? What value is it bringing to society, and also protecting the business and people's jobs and livelihoods and making sure it's very safe and sort of protected as much as it can be, whilst also embracing the bold, the risk-taking entrepreneur, driving innovation, experimentation, pushing boundaries of what's possible and what can be done. So, again, a very big ask on leaders. We want you to be the safe, sensible steward, and we want you to be the bold risk-taking entrepreneur. I mean both of those things. And I think what you sometimes have with organizations is you get one who's very fixed on being um more responsible, and then the next leader comes in and perhaps they're more entrepreneurial, and you get this a bit of a pendulum swing between the two. Whereas what would drive success in the long term is finding a way to embrace both at once. And yeah, it's a massive ask. Massive ask. Yeah, I bet.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And what I love about all of them is I want to be all of it. I want to be ruthlessly caring, I want to be confidently humble, I want to be politically virtuous, ambitiously appreciative, and responsibly daring. Yes, please. Wouldn't that be amazing? But what I love about your language, I really connect with it because when I read the book, I was underlining furiously a lot of the language because so much of it is in our products. I've just referred to the psych safety questionnaire, but literally compassion's driving, driven, integrity, determined, confident, optimistic, all of those words are pivotal in three of our products decision styles, strengths, and resilience. I mean, it's just great. I love your thinking because it's so aligned with ours, and it just helps me to validate a lot of my own thinking, which is brilliant. But there is that sense of I'd like it all, please. Yeah.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Make it in a candy shop. But it's almost just the language, like you said, the language. It's the language resonates with a lot of your products, but it also, I think the mindsets, just having that shared language really helps leaders and helps shape a culture and gives people like that's what psychology does a lot of the time. It surfaces something people know that gives them a language to talk about it. So then people can do it more consciously, I guess.

Caitlin Cooper:

So, Amy, obviously in the book you're talking about each mindset, you also talk about the sweet spot. So I wondered if you could explain your thinking behind that.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, so the sweet spot is basically the optimal Goldilocks zone that you're aiming for in each mindset. So where you're demonstrating just the right amount, it's not something that's being overplayed or underplayed in your leadership approach. And crucially, it's not the Goldilocks zone in between. For example, it's not the zone in between responsible and daring that you're looking for. You're not looking for a midway point in between those two mindsets. You want just the right amount of say responsible and you want just the right amount of daring, and to not go too far off piece. And in each chapter, it talks about where you might find yourself a little a little overplayed or a little underplayed for various reasons. And it can be quite hard because the reason you might go off track may be a very understandable, but be possibly tied to your values and what you believe needs to be done as a leader, so it might be what lures you to sort of tolerate the impact of something being overused or overplayed or underplayed, perhaps. Um, so it's a really knotty thing to like get to the bottom of. And yeah, easy to think. Oh well, it's easy to be in the middle of these things, but it's it's really not.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And it's not a compromise, is it? That's what I really liked about it. I it's one of my least favourite words, actually, compromise. It's not a compromise.

Amy Walters Cohen:

No, it's definitely not a compromise. It's not looking for, oh well, I'll dial this up and this down depending on the situation. If you aim for that, I think you'll end up coming across a bit Jekyll and Hyde in your leadership. People won't really know which version of you is going to come and which sort of lens you're going to bring to a situation. So you're kind of looking for the steady middle and just enough of both elements, and the different situations will bring different mindsets to the fore.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And so, what makes paradoxical Thinking so difficult, having worked with leaders now for the last few years, Amy, to help them think like this?

Amy Walters Cohen:

Basically, our brains just don't love it. We like clear cut, right or wrong, thinking it's a lot easier. Um, it takes up a lot less effort, it saves energy and resources, and it gives us that sense of certainty and clarity, which is particularly, I think, what the more complex and fast-changing and disruptive things are, the more leaders are thrown off balance. I think the more we our brains just crave some sort of give me some clear-cut right or wrong answer that or or recipe for success and how I can grapple with this. Whereas embracing paradox is a tiny, a bit more nuanced, a bit more of an uncomfortable space to move into and not easy to do in practice. But I think leaders, senior leaders I've got to have really embraced it. And yes, the answer's not exactly easy to do, but it feels like what leaders have been calling out for in order to elevate the performance in the way that's needed. So it's sort of a bit more of a realistic view of actually if you want to succeed, it's a bit more of a complex picture than a clear-cut paint by numbers, cookie-cutter form of leadership. Um, but it's something that I think, yeah, if you can embrace properly, it will help you with that complex environment, but it's not what your brain wants.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I think that's quite interesting because if you think about cognitive dissonance as a concept, when we hold two seemingly inconsistent beliefs at the same time, we experience that cognitive distress or that dissonance. And we know from all the neuroscience research that our brains like simplicity, we like predictability, we like control, and we like something to be replicated because of that need for predictability. We like things clean and simple, hence why some people might prefer compromise or feel like they want a bit of both. So I really like that point that it may feel uncomfortable, but actually the real benefit is there for yourself or your team for your organization.

Caitlin Cooper:

I wonder also if there's a degree to which people throughout their career they maybe create this narrative around what they are. And so then it gets to a point, I think you mentioned this, Amy, so maybe we'll go into it a bit later, around I guess coming to terms with actually you you can be both, and therefore you have to almost change that narrative that some leaders have created over, you know, the years of their career and maybe being kind of one or the other. Because I guess as the thinking has evolved now compared to even 20 years ago. So that's what comes to my mind when you're when you're talking about it. I don't know what your thoughts are on that.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's how we sort of form our identity over time, and definitely within the leadership career and it just any individual at work, you sort of pick up on what works well, what is part of what makes you successful, what gets you recognized, and then that becomes ingrained into part of who you are, how you introduce yourself, how you operate when you get to new environments. Yeah, your brand again, very comforting to have if it's very clear cut and this is how you do things. It's almost like you can tick the box of that's solved. This is work me and this is how I operate, and this is how I do things, and it's worked for me before, and it will work for me again. And it's not that it won't, it's not throwing out everything you've done. It's just looking. Are there some things that maybe you dismiss because they don't fit as comfortably with your values or your preferences or your natural sort of tendencies? That actually, if you did expand a little and soften your grip on some parts of the story that you tell, that you might just have access to different performance benefits and a more rounded approach. But I think we tell stories about ourselves constantly and our decisions and what how we've got like when you introduce yourself, how have you got here? Like it's it's just a constant tape that's running in your head, and it's interesting to listen to what you say about yourself and what you can do, what you can't do, what you're good at.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Very interesting. Um that self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm I'm an extrovert, I'm structured, I'm resilient, or I'm introverted, I'm moral, yeah, I'm messy, I'm yeah, absolutely.

Caitlin Cooper:

Very interesting. So I guess in summary, it sounds though people kind of hold on to certain identities. And I guess we've talked about potentially from a neuroscientific perspective, why it's hard to let go of that. But what would you suggest leaders can do to move past it? What is the now what for leaders who find themselves in that situation?

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, for sure. And we do, um, like we discussed, we do all have roles that we lean into or play in different groups or different environments. And with leaders, particularly senior leaders, I think why it becomes so difficult to let go or at least even soften your grip on aspects of your identity is because that is what's got you here and what's made you so successful. Leaders have built their careers by leading in a certain way, approaching decisions from a certain perspective, having a strong go-to style that people recognise and value. Um, so perfectly reasonable for them to say, well, why should I change? What's worked well? It's helped me get rewarded, it's helped me get promoted, it's helped me be recognized, it's helped me be effective. So why should I change? So I think that's the conversation. What performance benefits are you missing out on? Or costs are you tolerating because something is perhaps now being overplayed a little or underplayed a little? So it's less wholesale, right? We're gonna do this all differently, and it's more that fine-tuning and sort of slight recalibration at this level, so that you can yet get access to even more performance uplifts and benefits that one style and a one-trick sort of pony approach might limit you from.

Dr Amanda Potter:

That agility is so important, isn't it? And also those micro, those small habits, the changes it can make across organisations are amazing. Working now at the very senior level, I never cease to be amazed and shocked actually, how the behaviour of the most senior people in an organization, the impact it can have on environment and culture. And we're working with some really interesting companies at the moment, aren't we, Caitlyn? Where we can see so clearly how the behaviour of the most senior players in that organization is completely driving the way in which the business is operating. But it's all completely unwritten and it's all unspoken, but it's having such a fundamental impact on how people interact and engage with each other and the unwritten rules of conduct. And nobody can see it, they can't necessarily see the link until it's pointed out. And as soon as it's pointed out, there's that brilliant aha moment. So the language of powerful shift, I think, is so brilliant.

Caitlin Cooper:

I think that's probably quite a nice segue, actually, Amy, because you said you work with leaders and you bring the ideas from your book into some of the workshops that you run with leaders. So I wondered what kind of conversations you find yourself having the most often with the leaders that you're working with. And maybe is there one of the mindsets that you see is talked about the most? Or yeah, what's kind of your standout reflections of kind of plying it more practically?

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, and it's all very different, I think, what people take from it and what organizations want to focus on. I think culturally, you get I get a lot of organizations with the ruthlessly caring, they're sort of maybe too cuddly and they need to be a bit more ruthless and or they're a bit feel they're a bit performance focused and need to be a bit more cuddly. So again, it's trying to navigate like, well, what you do, you do it for a reason and it's creating certain results. So you need to honor what there is and and why it's like that and why it works, and see well, how can we integrate a bit of the other without throwing one out and just sort of yeah, avoiding that pendulum swing. But yeah, I've had lots of different interests, done some workshops even with principals of schools, um, to senior leaders from multinationals. So it seems to be resonating across the board with different forums, some focused on the mega trends, some on a specific mindset, some on paradoxical thinking generally. But the same conversations tend to crop up um in terms of questions people have, like around the gender differences. So, does the optimal zone look different compared to men or women in society and what we see as confident from one or humble and what we expect? Also, does it look different across cultures? And also some teams are like, well, if we have the different mindsets spread out across our team, is that enough? So we get these types of questions and conversations crop up a lot.

Dr Amanda Potter:

And what's the answer to that? Yeah, no, I was thinking because in the strengths perspective, we would say yes, that's okay, because we have our 28 strengths and we talk about cognitive diversity and that you need a good variety of strengths within the team in order to create debate and challenge and real conversations that you don't get conformity bias.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, it's a great way of looking at it. And I think it's good to have that diversity in the team. And maybe if someone's really political and other leaders are very sort of ambitious or appreciative, it's great to be able to look at those role models and have those real life examples playing out in front of you of okay, well, what do they do? How are they leading? How do they have these conversations? How do they sort of get their team to perform in that way or get people to open up and feel safe? What is it that they're doing? You can sort of study those individual role models. But I think if you're just gonna be like, well, we have all those mindsets in our team, it's pretty, it's pretty high risk. Because if what if the appreciative person leaves or um it's not gonna carry you as a leader through every situation that you'll face and where you personally need to integrate a bit of it. So I think you might have people with definitely different strengths, and it's great to be able to look at that and absorb and sort of integrate a bit of what they do into into your leadership style. But I wouldn't necessarily be like, oh, we've got them in the team, and that'll that'll do. That'll do.

Dr Amanda Potter:

So we need these things within ourselves rather than relying. So whereas with strengths, we would say that if they're not things that typically energize you and therefore you don't gravitate towards them, then make sure that you've got them in your team. But we're not saying that with this, actually, we're saying we need all these things within ourselves to really be able to drive a high performance environment given the external macro mega trend environment. Yeah, we actually need these within each leader, so that's a really big difference to our strengths.

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, it's it's the opposite of being like, yeah, you can just put yourself in a bucket where that's not me. This is me and this is what I bring. Yeah, removing that from people's sort of limiting beliefs of themselves and what they can be.

Caitlin Cooper:

Amy, this might be going slightly off piece, but I'm quite curious to know have you found any kind of industry-specific trends in terms of some of the mindsets of certain teams that you've worked with?

Amy Walters Cohen:

Yeah, um, it's just I'm interested in how much the responsibility daring seems to be attracting people at the moment, especially in heavily regulated industries, which again it comes into how do you create that culture of innovation? Because I think people have been trained in their profession and in their discipline to not take risks. You don't want an engineer building a bridge to be the bold daring that's just give it a go and push some boundaries. You just don't want that in that profession, but it's people tend to over-apply those rules and patterns, whereas actually then what the company's asking is we need a bit of daring, we need it correctly applied and a bit of innovation coming in, but we also still want everything, all the safety procedures implemented. So I think there's definitely different contexts, the different industries, frameworks they operate within, where you're just asking for not like extreme versions of these, but at least a little bit of different mindsets coming in.

Caitlin Cooper:

So, what would you say people can do to learn from the insights in your book?

Amy Walters Cohen:

And it's a big question. I think my main thing to learn from would be to have read the book, um, not all of it, um, but definitely read chapter one, chapter two, and then pick the chapter and the mindset that you feel most drawn to. I don't like wasting time and effort, and I think it's as we've discussed in this this podcast, the small adjustments consistently applied that actually help change the dial on performance the most. So you don't need to sit there thinking, gosh, I need to embrace all these mindsets and then all these different skills. It's more like actually just be selective, reflect on yourself, reflect on your team, reflect on your challenges and goals that you have in front of you and the tensions you're grappling with and where you maybe feel stuck, and then pick the mindset that's most aligned to your specific situation right now, and then identify one or two strategies and start weaving that in and experimenting with them so they become part of your go-to approach and your everyday toolkit. I used to um do a lot of climbing and my coach would not he wouldn't say, Oh, well, this year we're gonna work on all of this, he'd just give me one or two things that we're gonna work on and we're gonna work on those. Yeah, and we're just gonna get those really sort of perfected and ingrained, and then we'll move on to something else. And I think it's a strategy that's stuck with me. And I think if you do want to change the dial on performance, um, you do focus on on small adjustments consistently applied rather than changing everything at once.

Caitlin Cooper:

So, what would you recommend leaders do having listened to this podcast? Amanda, I wonder if you have any thoughts as well.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Well, I think people should buy the book and they should do exactly what Amy said. Sit down, have some time so they get that balance, so they're not relentlessly working, and just get a cup of tea or grab themselves some lunch, go and sit outside with the book. If you're listening to this in the beautiful sun, and just read the first two chapters. And I did exactly what Amy said. I know you read the whole book, didn't you, Caitlyn? But I started by going to the chapters that for me were resonated the most, and then I went back and I read the end, and then I went back and read the other bits. So I kind of bounced around the book. Yeah, give yourself some time, read the book, and work out what really resonates for you.

Caitlin Cooper:

And bring a notepad and write down some things because there's definitely some great nuggets of information.

Dr Amanda Potter:

As I've done, written all over the book, which means someone else will get it and find it really irritating to read when I share the book with somebody else.

Caitlin Cooper:

Well, that sadly brings us towards the end of the podcast. So I wondered if there's any final thoughts from yourself, Amy, for well, either Amanda and I or for our listeners. Oh, um, final thoughts.

Amy Walters Cohen:

I think I think just don't be um actually that's what they call a dead person's goal. I think what you want is to appreciate your strengths and where you are and your identity and what you have, and look at this in in the book. We call it sort of cooking a risotto rather than a stir fry. So we're not looking for you just about all the things that you do that's worked well in the past and that part of your identity. We're looking for you to subtly sort of blend in some extra flavours, extra ways of doing stuff um subtly over time, and take that as your approach rather than gosh, there's something new that's throwing in loads of different things. It's how do I integrate these?

Dr Amanda Potter:

So very gentle, like adding to a risotto rather than just throwing all the ingredients in like a stir fry. I've never heard that before. I love that. She's very clever.

Caitlin Cooper:

Now everyone's gonna go away wanting a risotto. And so, where can people purchase your book?

Amy Walters Cohen:

It's available in all good bookstores online, so Waterstains, Flackwells, Amazon, and the shop controversially, and formerly known as WH Smith, which is now TG Jones, I believe. I didn't know that. Brilliant.

Dr Amanda Potter:

I didn't know that either.

Caitlin Cooper:

I mean we knew it every day. Thank you. Um, no, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I feel just under an hour is not enough. I feel like we could go on and talk about all those different things for for ages, but appreciate your time. And Amanda, thank you as always for being on the podcast. Absolute pleasure.

Dr Amanda Potter:

Thank you. Thank you, Amy. Thank you for being the guest, and thank you, everybody who's signed up, who listens, and continues to subscribe to this podcast. I hope you all have a wonderful and successful day. Thank you, everyone.

Contributor

Dr Amanda Potter

Host
Contributor

Tim Hepworth

Host
Contributor

Caitlin Cooper

Co-host