The Chief Psychology Officer
Exploring the topics of workplace psychology and conscious leadership. Amanda is an award-winning Chartered Psychologist, with vast amounts of experience in talent strategy, resilience, facilitation, development and executive coaching. A Fellow of the Association for Business Psychology and an Associate Fellow of the Division of Occupational Psychology within the British Psychological Society (BPS), Amanda is also a Chartered Scientist. Amanda is a founder CEO of Zircon and is an expert in leadership in crisis, resilience and has led a number of research papers on the subject; most recently Psychological Safety in 2022 and Resilience and Decision-making in 2020. With over 20 years’ experience on aligning businesses’ talent strategy with their organizational strategy and objectives, Amanda has had a significant impact on the talent and HR strategies of many global organizations, and on the lives of many significant and prominent leaders in industry. Dr Amanda Potter can be contacted on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/amandapotterzircon www.theCPO.co.uk
The Chief Psychology Officer
Ep97 Best bits series: How strengths create diverse, engaged and energised teams
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In the second Best Bits episode of The Chief Psychology Officer Podcast, we explore how strengths, cognitive diversity and leadership behaviour shape high-performing teams.
Caitlin Cooper and Kristian Lees-Bell revisit standout conversations with Dr Amanda Potter, Stuart Desson, Simon Rogerson and Joe Wicks to unpack what energises people at work, why strengths are different from motivation and skill, and how leaders can create the conditions for people to perform at their best.
The episode explores the role of strengths in employee engagement, team performance, leadership development, recruitment, psychological safety and organisational culture. It also looks at the risks of profile matching, clone teams and overusing strengths, showing why diverse thinking and different strengths are essential for innovation, adaptability and sustainable performance.
For HR leaders, people professionals, coaches and anyone interested in organisational psychology, this episode offers practical insight into how strengths-based development can help individuals, teams and leaders build greater energy, trust, resilience and performance at work.
Episodes are available here https://www.thecpo.co.uk/
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Welcome To Strengths Best Bits
Dr Amanda PotterHello and welcome back to the Chief Psychology Officer Podcast. Thank you so much for being here. This is our Best Bit series, and it's been a really valuable pause, a chance to slow things down, reflect, and take stock of how many brilliant guests and conversations we've had over the last four years. Across the Best Bit episodes, we've been bringing together some of the brilliant standout moments, ideas that are stuck, conversations that have really sparked something, and practical takeaways that you can carry along with you. Following our episode on psychological safety, this one is totally about strengths and cognitive diversity. It's a theme that runs quietly but powerfully through many of our conversations and how we understand ourselves and how we understand what we're energized by as a real driver in organisations. And how can we create the organization conditions for people to really operate at their best? As always, thank you so much for listening, for being part of this. And so, whether you've listened from the beginning or whether you're new to this pod, I hope that everything you listened to today has been helpful. I hope you enjoy this best bits episode. So let's get into it. Thank you for listening.
Caitlin CooperWe are back to talk all things CPO Best Bits, but this time we're honing in on strengths. I'm Caitlin, principal consultant and business psychologist at BTalent. And also today, I'm actually joined by Christian, who'll be co-hosting the podcast with me. So, Christian, don't know if you want to say a quick hello to the listeners.
KristianHello, everybody. You might recognise the voice from uh some of our other podcasts, one of the uh co-hosts of CPO. And yes, Caitlin, it's yeah, fantastic, to be able to share some of our best bits episodes for strengths this time. So no new material or such, just the clips we keep coming back to with a bit of us talking about why we picked them and then really what stuck in our heads.
Caitlin CooperOkay, so for anyone who didn't listen to the last CPO Best Bits, we talked about psychological safety and ultimately we went on a trip down memory lane. So we'll be doing that again. What kind of things can our listeners expect to hear in the episode? If you can give us some little Some teasers. Yeah, some teasers.
KristianAbsolutely, yeah, some teasers so they know why we're going to listen. Well, we're going to go into first of all a bit around what strengths are. So a definition of strengths, uh quite an interesting aspect of strengths, which is what happens when we underuse, but even more crucially, overuse or do too much of a good thing. We'll talk about uh the difference between strengths and motivation, a little bit around the neuroscience and the neurotransmitters that are related to feeling at our best. And we'll also talk about the use of strengths in organizations. So around recruitment, we'll hear from Stuart Desson with regards to profile matching and the dangers of trying to fit certain types of strengths into certain teams. So we'll talk about that and assessment. And then finally, we'll hear from Joe Wicks, uh of all people, about what energizes him and then what that says about strengths and how we can use strengths to energize us at work and in life in general.
Caitlin CooperGreat. So we'll be covering a lot of ground there, I suppose, and we'll be hearing from a few different voices in those clips. Looking forward to diving into that. So why don't we start, Christian? What is the first clip you have for us today?
Strengths As Everyday Energizers
KristianThe first clip is we start from the beginning. So, what even are strengths? This clip is from our episode on creating a strengths culture, episode 25. And before you can do anything useful with strengths, you need a working definition. And this is the clearest one we've had on the show.
Dr Amanda PotterSo, very much building on what I said earlier, strengths are energizers. They're the things that we do well, we find enjoyable. And potentially with that practice, because of that moving towards behavior, the fact that we find opportunities to practice the things that we enjoy, in theory, we are likely to get good at them. Can you give me an example? So a strength never gets on the to-do list, and that's because very often the task is done before the list is even created. It's the natural, energizing, and authentic aspect of the person or what they enjoy. On the other hand, if there's something that you have to write down and you move it from one list to another, constantly berating yourself for not actually completing that task, that's likely to be quite low on your strengths list. And we would refer to that as an underused strength because it's not something that's energizing to you, something that you don't enjoy. And it requires you to drive your motivation in order to complete that task. And it's underused because if you need that strength in order to perform and succeed, then it's a gap and therefore is a potential risk.
Caitlin CooperSo, Christian, out of interest, what are your top strengths?
KristianMy top strengths, if I remember rightly.
Caitlin CooperUm should be deeply ingrained into your look at this a while ago, didn't we?
KristianI should be no, shouldn't I? Um compassionate was one. Uh was a top strength of mine, a top seven, and enabling.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
KristianWhich makes sense. Obviously, there's sometimes where I can get a bit too over invested in how people are doing, but I suppose it plays into my strengths as a coach.
Caitlin CooperYes, I was gonna say I think it very much matches your role and what you do.
KristianWhat about yours?
Caitlin CooperMine. Um, so mine are influential, and that one's really about kind of asking questions and showing interest in others, basically being curious and creating connections with people. And the other is attentive. So similar vein, being observant of other people's needs and what they have to say, but also being aware of the impact that I might have on others. But yeah, they definitely ring true. I definitely again, I think it matches quite well in terms of the role that I'm in and the work that we do all the time. So yeah.
KristianI think it makes sense, yeah. Kind of um constructively nosy, Caitlin, which is good. Curious.
Caitlin CooperLiterally curious Caitlin.
KristianCurious Caitlin. Well, we're psychologists, aren't we? So yeah. If we weren't curious, there's something would be wrong.
Caitlin CooperNo, exactly. I think asking questions is so important. Right, okay. So we've got a definition there. What's the next clip you've got for us?
KristianThe
Motivation Is Not A Strength
Kristiannext clip from actually the same conversation, same episode, and it's about the topic of strengths versus motivation and are they the same thing? Which is quite interesting because we sometimes have people on our workshops who often get confused and then think that, you know, if they're motivated by something, then it must mean that it's a strength of theirs.
Dr Amanda PotterYeah.
KristianBut it's a distinction that trips people up constantly.
Dr Amanda PotterIs it the same as motivation? The answer is no. From a psychological term, we differentiate between strengths, motivation. They are quite different from one another. And I know I probably used the word motivation earlier when I was talking about dopamine because that is the reward and motivation transmitter. But actually, from a psychological perspective, we clearly differentiate between strengths and motivation and also strengths, motivation, and skill. Can you elaborate? Imagine we were to focus on your least preferred strength, Angela, which is meticulous. And Sarah and I asked you to spend a whole day peer reviewing and proofing reports. What will happen is you are likely to feel quite tired by the end of the day because it's not something you necessarily enjoy. But because you're a fabulous employee, thank you very much, you're motivated to do a good job. So you want to deliver high-quality work. So you're motivated to be meticulous, but you're not energized by it and therefore can get depleted. But as a result of that practice, because you're motivated, you're actually in truth very skilled at being meticulous, albeit you don't enjoy the experience.
Caitlin CooperYeah, I think that resonates with me. I can think of a few tasks that maybe aren't the most energizing because actually they can be quite stressful and lead up to it or things like that. But I'm motivated to do it because I know that it's going to be good for the company, it's going to be good for the person. Depending on what that piece of work is, I know that there's a good reason to do it. But what I find is that I'll then feel really tired afterwards and I'll feel quite wiped out, versus, you know, I don't know if I choose the example of one-to-one conversations I love. And so I always feel quite energized after those. I don't know, Kristen, do you have anything like that?
KristianYeah, there's just a few examples. So networking, I can be quite competent at it. Um, I enjoy it sometimes, but it's not something I would jump out of bed to do. And if I'm networking for a good period of time and I've I've spoken to lots of people, I can feel quite drained afterwards, even if those conversations have been, you know, enjoyable, they've been interesting. And then I also really resonated with Angela's meticulous challenge. It's not one of my top strengths. It doesn't mean that I can't be meticulous and sometimes actually pretty good at spotting or doing things like copywriting and proofing. And if my focus is there, I can be really meticulous, but it's not something that I'm energized by over time. So if I'm at the desk doing spreadsheets all day, yeah, you're probably not gonna get the best out of me afterwards, and I might need a glass of wine.
Caitlin CooperYeah, I'd be the same. Maybe not a glass of wine, maybe some chocolate or something.
KristianSomething like that, chocolate as well.
Caitlin CooperSugar hit. Right, okay. So, what's the next clip?
KristianThe next clip is actually from the same episode. We discuss some of the neuroscience around stress.
How Strengths Change Over Time
Dr Amanda PotterHow do our strengths develop? So, from a neuroscientific perspective, strengths are created by our brain synapses being nurtured as we develop, learn, and grow. As our strengths are heavily dependent on environmental factors during development, and as I mentioned, strengths are moving towards more of a state, they can change over time. And so, as a result of our environment, and as a result of us changing and focusing on new things that we enjoy, we are likely to train ourselves to be more motivated, to be more excited by different activities, and therefore we will release greater levels of dopamine and get excited about the tasks that we enjoy most.
Caitlin CooperIt's funny because that one, Christian, we were just on a workshop earlier, weren't we, with a global kind of engineering firm that we're running a leadership development program for, and we're having a whole conversation around strengths and how the context can really mean that your strengths may change over time, which was making me think about my own experience. And I would say when I first kind of entered the corporate life, I would say that I was more energized by things like meticulous because you know I was quite used to doing that. When you come out of uni, you've you you know you're having to proof all your work and that sort of thing. And so you feel like, you know what, I know what I'm doing here, I'm confident in it, and also I'm energized by it. But as my career's gone on, you know, I'll still do it because again, I'm motivated to produce a good high quality of work for our clients. But yeah, now I would be much more energized actually by the networking piece and the strategic thinking and obviously the being influential rather than meticulous.
KristianIt's fascinating, that isn't it? I think that what you said and that snippet that we've just listened to reframes strengths as something that are built and developed, not something you've just had and handed out and then born. I think can be really affirming to know that um you know if you can change them, because if you focus on certain strengths over time, as you've just said, then you can develop strengths, can't you? That builds new brain connections and neurotransmitters, and you get more dopamine from the things you used to find a bit scary. So yeah, I think it was really interesting. Clip supported with the science as well.
Caitlin CooperYeah, we've always got a bit of neuroscience in there, don't we?
KristianAlways a
Strengths Between State And Trait
Kristianlittle bit, yeah. So let's shift from strengths on their own to how they, I suppose, sit alongside personality. We've got on this clip two different guests. Uh we've got Amanda Potter speaking to one of our guests, Stuart Desson of Luminous Spark. And they talk about the same question, but I don't think either of them would actually say it's fully settled, but um it was interesting nonetheless.
SPEAKER_00I see strengths as a really critical part of our personality, and if we are going to be purposeful in our lives and make sort of conscious choices, choosing to focus on our strengths is uh an incredibly sensible thing to do. So that's kind of my take. I don't know what you make of that, Amanda.
Dr Amanda PotterI probably have because I've wanted to differentiate between strengths and personality to help our customers, I have always referred to a continuum and I always think about it in terms of state and trait. And what I would do is I would put resilience, emotional intelligence on the state end because it's rapidly changeable, and that triggering can happen in using your language in a moment. And so my emotions can change rapidly depending on what's happening around me, versus personality, which I would argue it's the other end, which is trait. And I put strengths in the middle because I would argue that strengths, whilst they are not as rapidly changing, they are more evolving and they are more responsive to other choices we make, the decisions we make in the environment we're in.
Caitlin CooperSo yeah, I think that kind of reinforces what Amanda was saying earlier. But I think it definitely does come in the middle. And I think, again, just reflecting on my own experience, there are definitely some strengths that I've had that have been pretty consistent over time. But as I said, there are others that, depending on the context and as my career's progressed, they have changed. Do you have any reflections on that one, Christian?
KristianWhen I think about my strengths, I think they've broadly stayed the same. But it's a question I think that we get with almost all delegates in our workshops at a point where when they look at their profile, if they've done it a second time, if they did it a few years ago, then um so many people who have noticed that while it broadly stays the same, there's a strength or two that has shifted. It's either gone up or it's gone down. And then when you ask them why that is, it's because they've changed role or because they chose to focus or to prioritize that strength because they knew it was really crucial to their role at the time. And then lo and behold, they find that their strengths profile shifts to reflect that need. So it's fascinating. What I see out in the field supports what Amanda says and Stuart discuss in the podcast that strengths can shift over time. So the less stable personality, you know, not as changeable as resilience.
Caitlin CooperAn interesting one that I've seen as well with people I've been working with is when people have gone from kind of more corporate being kind of employed in that environment, but then they go independent and they're self-employed, that can often shift their strengths in terms of what they need to kind of dial up in that new context versus when they were working in kind of a larger organization and a in in a team and all those sorts of things. So it's a very interesting conversation to have, isn't it? When people go through those life shifts.
KristianIt really is, isn't it? Yeah. Some yeah, in-house, you know, HR directors who then decide to go freelance and then suddenly need to turn up the strengths that help them to sell and to promote themselves and to uh have the commercial conversations, which can feel a little bit uncomfortable for them initially. Fascinating. Let's get back now to episode 28. And this clip is on the increasing use of strength-based assessment.
Dr Amanda PotterWhat's amazing is that 10 years ago, 73% of Fortune and FTSE 100 organizations were using strengths-based approaches for assessment. But now it's reported that 90% of those organizations use strengths-based assessments for assessment for recruitment. But so actually, strengths have overtaken personality, which is what I expected to see happen and actually is happening. So more organizations are now using strengths-based approach assessments for recruitment globally than they are using personality for assessment. But your point, Angelo, is that some organizations get very embedded with product because they get embedded with their test publisher, with their consulting partner, they get a lot of people trained on those tools and they're unable to shift away or feel like they're unable to shift away from their very well-established personality products. But actually, I think there's a real place for strengths and there's a place for personality in organizations.
Caitlin CooperThat is a big stat. We love a good stat, don't we?
KristianIt's a stat, yeah. That's um it's a good one just before the pricing slide and the proposal. Just kind of it doesn't mean, does it, that uh that stat around sort of 90% of organizations using a strength-based approach. That said doesn't mean they're necessarily using strength tools, does it? But it's that approach that's generally gone away from the focus on development or development gaps and looking more at how to create environments, encourage people to do better at the things that they're already energized by. But I think there's nuance here, isn't there? We were actually at a development programme the other day together, weren't we? We were with a big client, and actually, interestingly, one of the HR leaders gave a talk on development and talent selection, talent development, and talked about the importance of balancing sort of a strength-based approach with still kind of particularly early in somebody's career, looking at what you're not so good at and actually really focusing on that as well. So it's not a simple just play to your strengths and then everything will be fine. I think is a balance there.
Caitlin CooperYeah, it's funny, that was literally going through my brain as well as we were listening to that clip. Does it surprise you? Because it Amanda said that strength is overtaking personality, obviously. Does that surprise you?
KristianIt does surprise me. I think there's a lot of organizations that have uh they're still using personality profiles. You know, we have clients, don't we, that for example, use it in combination, don't they? Actually, combination, don't they, with for recruitment or for development. They still see the value very much so of strength-based approach to complement those methods. But I think importantly, when they start using strengths-based assessments or strengths tools for development, the advantage of doing that or using those compared to some personality um approaches is that the world's changing. People need to adapt, don't they? And people need to quickly develop. And knowing what your personality style is, I think is only one part of the equation. We can develop our strengths, can't we, over a short period of time sometimes if we focus on the right things.
Caitlin CooperYeah, it's an extra data point. And I think the thing is that I love about strengths is obviously it's used in that kind of individual setting for development and coaching, but also from a kind of teams lens as well. I'm sure there'll be a clip we'll play in a moment about cognitive diversity and how you can leverage the different strengths that exist in a team. But yeah, I do quite like how it's got both those two avenues that you can explore and go down when talking about the topic.
Why Profile Matching Hurts Hiring
KristianYeah, definitely. So the next clip is actually a third clip from episode 25. So either it was an unusually rich hour or we just didn't have the heart to cut any more of it. So let's see.
SPEAKER_01So for organizations that are looking to implement a strengths-based approach, can we use strengths for recruitment to select the right candidates for an organization?
Dr Amanda PotterWell, the word right is the one that worries me in your statement, Angela. So the right strengths is a problem. Because yes, you can use strengths for recruitment, but no, you cannot select the right strengths. And the reason I say that is you should never profile match. Profile matching is when you identify the strengths in the team or the organization that you would like to recruit for, and then you actively recruit people with those strengths. If you do this, what you're going to do is contribute to a homogeneous or homophily culture where everyone is the same. So I fundamentally disagree with profile matching. I fundamentally agree with the unique individual, identifying what someone's core and unique or signature strengths are, and then deciding how well that person will fit into the team. Do they have strengths that will complement the team and add greater value because they are diverse to the team that you have already?
Caitlin CooperWell, there we go. That was actually quite a nice segue into that diversity piece.
KristianIt was, wasn't it? Yeah.
Caitlin CooperAnd we talk about profile matching, which is a conversation, isn't it, that we've had over the years. Yeah, Amanda feels quite strongly about it, doesn't she?
KristianYeah, she does. And it's um it could be quite tempting and understandable in many ways for an organization to want to use a tool like ours to support a hiring process and to support the efficiency and I suppose speed up the process and to simplify it. But uh yeah, as we heard in that clip, it's not so much about looking at your existing team and then profiling what strengths or top strengths that team has, and then trying to only recruit the people with those exact strengths or that score in that strengths profile. There's a risk there of over the years that team becomes, as Amanda says, just homogenous and lacks the diversity and they don't innovate anymore. And we've had countless situations, haven't we, or examples where it's felt nice and harmonious in the beginning for people to have the same strengths or to have the same personality types, but you lose the innovation, the challenge, those nuances over time, and that can have an impact on the success of the team and how they adapt in the future.
Caitlin CooperAs you say, it's it's always kind of a conversation that we have a lot with our clients in terms of what's best to do.
KristianIt is. When I think about How my father recruits people for his um much smaller bathroom.
SPEAKER_03Getting personal there.
KristianWell, can I say I hope he's not listening, but he probably will listen, but I don't think he'll have very thick skin. But I think in in the past, um, not only would he not use any personality or strength-based assessments at all. I mean, it's a small business, he would ask just a few questions. And one of those was, Do you like rock music? And so he's a drummer. So if they said yes to that, then it'd have a nice conversation and then they'd probably get the job. We've come a bit of a way from those kinds of couple of questions, and then yeah, you've got the job.
Caitlin CooperWe have come a long way from then. So, what have we got next, Christian?
KristianWe have got Stuart Desson talking again in episode 76 on actually a very similar theme. So, again, to we talk about profile matching and the risk of profile matching, a little bit around why that can be an issue.
SPEAKER_00One risk of profile matching is that you end up certainly in leadership roles, homing in on that sort of stereotype. And the risk of that, even if you can gather data that can show that in some circumstances that gets good outcomes, if we do that consistently over time, we will clone our culture and we will lose the diversity in our leadership style. So I'm 100% with you, Amanda. If you're using psychometrics in this area around talent development, a really important factor is to do the opposite of that and actually look at well, who's in the team now? If other people are joining the team, what does that do to our diversity? And one thing I always like to do when I work with a team is have a look. Has somebody been recruiting in the image of the boss? Have we got a clone team? And that's normally a huge challenge. It will unbalance the culture, it will result in in sort of mini me's occurring where people are trying to unconsciously replicate the boss or what they think's need in the culture. And again, I'd like to see what I do as kind of the antidote to that. I mean, I have had in the past clients bring me or Lumina in and say, something's gone a bit wrong here. We've been using the psychometrics, and we're 10 years down the line, and we seem to have a sort of mono one-dimensional culture. Can you help us understand what's going on? And I've seen, you know, I won't name the organization, but one large organization I work with, they were using like a four-quadrant model for it. And they kind of got into everybody at the senior level was kind of driven, focused, didn't express feelings, and they kind of made a science out of saying that's what we want. And then a number of years down the line, they were saying something strange has happened. We've lost, we used to be so empowered, and we used to have lots of innovation, and it's all disappeared. And the really curious thing about that was it was staggeringly obvious to me what happened, and I got all their data and discussed it with them, and they're H people were on board, but it was really hard to persuade some of the other senior people to change because they'd say things like, but we like it like this, it's fast-paced, it's just you know, that's how we are. They kind of got attached to the culture that they were part of, and then it's pretty hard to change it. Yeah, you're almost into family therapy at this point. Yeah.
Caitlin CooperWell, there you go. I think that's a pretty good example, isn't it? Right. Okay, so let's move on then. What's the next clip that we're gonna be listening to about?
Culture Fit And Cognitive Diversity
KristianThe next clip, um, yeah, we hear from Simon Rogerson, who's the CEO and founder of Octopus Group. I think many of us might even be customers of Octopus Energy. So uh Simon is really passionate about culture fit. He talks about the concept of radiators versus drains and uh cognitive diversity, which we've just been talking about. So let's have a listen to that.
Dr Amanda PotterThinking about the role that you've played within the organizations around culture, because the reason we've invited you to talk to us today is I'm very excited about the environment of an organization and the culture we create in an organization. And from our conversation, Simon, you're very clear about what works in terms of culture and what doesn't work. Would you mind elaborating?
SPEAKER_06I think great business, building a great business, it's a difficult thing to do, but at the heart of it, great business is simply about how you make people feel. The only lesson anyone needs to take away is just about how you make people feel. And the people I'm talking about there are your employees and they're your customers. And behavior comes entirely from values. So it comes from the kind of people you hire, kind of the great big things you choose to do in an organization and the tiny little actions of every single person working there. The first 500 people we hired, I interviewed every single person. I probably spent half of my time for the first three, four, five years of the company interviewing people. So I got pretty good at working people out because it is about behavior. I say, you know, I'm I'm the group chief executive, but actually I think more than anything, I'm kind of group antibody. The culture of the organization was coolest when it was 30 people. Now across the group we have eight, nine thousand people working here. And my job is to make sure that decline in culture is as shallow as possible. And that comes down to the people you hire, the people you reward, the people you promote. You're either a radiator or you're a drain. And if you're a drain, you cannot and will not work at Octobus. And just recognizing when you, if you're really good at interviewing people, you probably get seven out of ten people right. So the three you're gonna get wrong, you need to do something about that because it's in their interest, it's in my interest, it's in the company's interests. But you know, culture comes down to people more than anything else. But again, this is what businesses get so wrong. You choose your friends in life, and people have, you know, I don't know what a circle of trust is, probably six, seven people in the way most people trust, and they have a wide network of friends. But you try and name the companies you would be friends with or with fit within that circle, it's almost non-existent, which is so weird because it's just a collection of humans coming together and suddenly you put a corporate wrap around them and no one trusts them anymore. It doesn't make any sense. I think business is fundamentally broken.
Dr Amanda PotterAnd the point you've made there about radiators and drains, given our research and thinking around cognitive diversity, is a really important one because in some environments we know that I might be an energizer for somebody, and other situations with other groups, someone might find me irritating or I could be a drain for them. So it's about the right culture. It doesn't mean that anybody's good or bad. It just means about finding the right fit for you, isn't it? I have an issue with having too much fit because of the lack of homogeneity. So the importance of having really good values and real clarity about what's important with an organization, yet at the same time looking for a diverse workforce who think differently, who are going to challenge each other, who are going to ask you questions is important too. So, what's your view on cognitive diversity and the importance of bringing in a diverse workforce, Simon?
SPEAKER_06So just a reaction to one thing you said actually first, because I agree, people will interpret radiation and drains differently. But one point I would make is there's a big difference between skepticism and cynicism. Fine with skeptics, right? When we're trying to build businesses all the time, and that means we make loads of mistakes and don't always get things right, and that's understandable. But the cynicism's not okay because it's wired differently in people. So I would make that point. I think there is a difference there. In terms of diversity generally, so diversity for businesses and business leaders is one of these mega buzzwords. So I look at some of the big quota companies, and there's diversity where I must tick certain boxes. So half my board must be women, and half my board must be men, and then I mean all kinds of levels of diversity. I think by a mile, the most important form of diversity is diversity of thought as to how people think about things. And that comes from different life experiences and different backgrounds. If I hired a man and a woman who both went to private school and they both read natural sciences at Cambridge, and they both have the same tutors, there's a very high likelihood they will think in a very similar way. So diversity of thought is about different life experiences and what you bring, and that I think is what makes our businesses and teams function in a kind of high performance way.
Caitlin CooperGreat. I mean, there's a lot to unpack in that one.
KristianYeah, there is, isn't there?
Caitlin CooperI actually recorded that one with um Amanda and Simon, and it was such a great conversation. And you can really see his passion for his business come through. It's quite inspiring. And I think the beginning where he mentions that he interviewed, you know, all 500 people, says it all really.
KristianIt was interesting, wasn't it? There was a bit of tension initially, I think, in terms of how you think about radiators and drains. So when Simon was talking about, you know, you're either a radiator or a drain, I think Amanda took it in another direction when she talked about effectively we can all be radiators and drains in different contexts. And so that again aligns to some of our work on strengths where we're energized in certain environments when we have a chance to do certain things, but we actually and also might be quite draining or uh challenging for other people who have a completely different approach, thinking style, and set of strengths than we do. So yeah, I think the whole thing you're either a drain or a radiator, not completely sure about that. I did find it interesting that then Simon later talked about there is a distinction between cynicism and being sceptical. So if you're cynic, then you're closing down the opportunities and not being open to difference. And I think I would a closed mindset, isn't it?
Caitlin CooperReally?
KristianYeah, absolutely.
Caitlin CooperYeah. The other thing they touched on was the cognitive diversity piece. So for anyone who is not necessarily aware of cognitive diversity, is that diversity of thought and how he was mentioning around not having clones of people that all came from kind of Russell group unis or private schools and things like that. And a number of our clients that we've worked with over the years, there's one in particular that come to mind, that kind of redefined their recruitment process to take out some of those existing biases that were in there, so then they could get people from kind of all different walks of life, but really to bring in that kind of diversity of thought. I don't know if you've had any similar experiences.
KristianI think when Simon was discussing diversity of thought coming from different life experiences and backgrounds, I agree with that. And also what we see that diversity or cognitive diversity can really be encouraged and come about through different sets of strengths. So when you've got a team with different strengths, it means it's very likely they'll be thinking differently. So their cognitive processes will be different, the way they solve problems will be different, the way they challenge, the way they come up with solutions. So that in itself, you've got a team with different strengths, you're likely to get cognitive diversity through strengths as well as individual differences and personal experiences, backgrounds. So yeah, I found that really fascinating.
Vulnerability That Builds Trust
KristianThis next clip is also a conversation with Simon, Caitlin, and this bit's about understanding vulnerability, the idea that we can't be good at everything, and that's actually okay, which, if you think about it, sort of quietly undermines about half the competency frameworks currently sitting in share drives all over the world. Yeah, we'll let that one go for today, globally, literally. But uh, yeah, let's hear about what he says about vulnerability.
SPEAKER_06I talk personally, I think men are a lot worse at this than women. But you know, up until I was probably mid-30s, I used to carry this little shield around with me, which would hide everything that was really broken about me or bust. And I'd use that shield to make sure no one could see what was going on because it made me feel vulnerable. Eventually I got to a stage when I was like, whatever, probably mid-30s, late 30s, right? I'll just screw this. I can't be bothered to. I'll just drop the shield and I'll just tell you this is who I am and waltz and all stuff I'm good at, stuff I'm not good at. And you know what? The right people want to help you. And anyone who chooses to use that against you is just a not really nice person, and you shouldn't do business with them, you shouldn't employ them, you shouldn't work with them. And it's creating that level of, again, trust and team environment. Normally, vulnerability is a massive sign of strength, especially from a leader, and the old school management and old school companies do not get that, and that is really bad, right? I cannot build a high performance team if you don't have vulnerability because I need to know what I'm dealing with across the whole team, and that needs to come from me as the example, and you need to be open with people. And also get over the fact that um all humans are flawed. I don't mention last time actually, the way the best question you can ask someone on a first date is can you tell me exactly in which way you are screwed up, please? Right? Because that's at the heart, that's at the heart of it, but you know, if everyone dances around the edges.
Dr Amanda PotterHow brilliant. I think that's one definitely for the notebook, then for those people who are just about to go on a first date. In what way are you flawed? I wonder if it's something we should be asking at work because the reality is we are bringing ourselves to work. You're right, we are all fundamentally flawed. I've got some brilliant gaps. We sent an email out inviting everybody to an event that the date had passed last week. So I did not spot on that email that the date was wrong. And so I got so many emails from people saying I really wanted to go, but apparently it's already happened. And so then I had to send out a message saying, by the way, I'm sure everybody knows that meticulous is my least preferred strength. And I'm very sorry. But I got lovely, lovely chats back from everyone saying, at least you're humble. So, you know, that's the truth. I'm not brilliant at everything. In the fact I'm pretty terrible at some things, but my team pick up the pieces, thank goodness.
Caitlin CooperI love it, it's that ownership, isn't it? When you do make a mistake. But I mean, most importantly, from that clip, I think for all those single people out there, I hope you've taken notes about that key question that you should be asking on your next date.
KristianThe very first question, right? And if they say something like, I work too hard or I'm just a perfectionist, then just groan and then leave them to it.
Caitlin CooperOver you strengths.
KristianBut vulnerability is talked about, isn't it? Um, you know, more and more now, even in the world of work. So Brene Brown talks about vulnerability and the power of vulnerability and bravery. But I think yeah, I found that really fascinating that Simon would mention that word in particular, but I think it changes the relationship people have with you as a leader. It helps you shift from being a leader who's someone who has to have all the answers to someone people actually trust to follow to create psychological safety, doesn't it? When they admit mistakes and they acknowledge that they don't know everything.
Caitlin CooperYeah.
KristianSo what was our next clip, Caitlin? Did you want to uh introduce this next one?
Caitlin CooperSo the next one, yeah, is actually from Joe X, also known as the Body Coach, and it follows a similar theme, to be honest with you. He also talks about vulnerability from kind of his lens.
KristianLet's go for it. Ready to do some burpees.
Dr Amanda PotterI'd love to take us back to something else that you said in one of your acceptance speeches, actually, Joe. One of the areas of research that I'm particularly passionate about is the concept of cognitive diversity, which is how people think. And so many of our clients have a fixed mindset about how certain experiences or qualifications would be suitable for their organizations when selecting and growing talent. So, what do you think organisations get from bringing people into their organizations that are not from a traditional background or don't necessarily come from an Ivy League or a Russell group top-tier university?
SPEAKER_05Well, I think, you know, in my experience, some of the most amazing, caring, loving, like creative, ambitious people have had challenging upbrings, especially amongst my circle of friends, because I grew up in a cancellor state, you know, we were on benefit. You know, I wasn't an aspirational child. I I didn't think I was going to amount to much, really. And I had people around me saying, you know, things like, you know, you're from that family on the estate, or you're a wrong and he's a naughty kid, or you're gonna end up like a junk, you're gonna be a junkie like your old man, all these kind of things that I heard as a kid, and you know, your mum's an unfit mother, and she was an amazing mum. She had us so young, and she was I'm a product of her parenting, so I think she's been amazing. And um, I think you shouldn't judge people based just on their education and where they've kind of studied and what kind of courses they've been on because you're gonna end up with a group of people that are all the same with the same kind of mindset and maybe don't have the you know the resilience to overcome adversity. I think with for me personally, like I love looking around at my organization and a body coach and seeing a really diverse range of people who all bring something different to the table. One thing me and Nikki are we always talking about this, we're a very sensitive leadership team. We cry in front of our staff all the time. It's create a culture where actually, you know what, anyone can talk about anything, and I think that's a really beautiful asset for of us. You know, we're not embarrassed to be vulnerable and show our weaknesses, like we're learning on the job, and everyone around us helps us achieve our goal. So I think it's only a positive thing, and I think, yeah, like people should be given an opportunity to prove themselves.
KristianYeah, it's fascinating, isn't it, Joe? Which I think we know he's quite an emotional person by the sounds of it. And I think, but vulnerability is one of those things that I think is quite misunderstood, isn't it? So I think you can listen to that clip and then sort of presume that, okay, that means do I need to overshare or sort of be emotional all the time. It's not about that, is it? It's about being honest in ways that maybe can help make your team feel stronger and understand you better. I think it builds trust, I think, and it signals trust when you can be open.
Caitlin CooperI think it's like with anything, you know, how can you take something and make it productive and a productive conversation or a productive inspirational thing? It's making me think of lots of conversations we have around authenticity, and there's that debate around it because actually you want to be able to show up and be your authentic self at work, of course. But at the same time, if someone's authenticity is turning up and shouting and screaming, that's not necessarily productive, so there has to be kind of boundaries to it.
KristianAbsolutely.
Caitlin CooperOkay, great.
KristianWell Yeah, we've got another clip, haven't we? Our last snippet, I believe.
Caitlin CooperOur last one, yeah.
Find Joy In What You Do
Caitlin CooperSo let's get that up for you.
Dr Amanda PotterAnd I do think it goes back to that point about do what you love as well. If you really, really hate running, don't run. Do something. I mean, like you say, the hit sessions are fantastic. I love them, and I also love bells. So I wonder if it is something about don't try and flog yourself, do something that actually is going to bring you a little bit of joy.
SPEAKER_05Definitely. Do you know what I've just done? So I'm 37 years old now. When I was 15, I was a really big roller skate. I love rollerblading, right? I'd you know, be grinding, doing the half pipes. So my friend, when he had he had a day off and he went to the skate park, and I was really inspired. So I've gone out and bought some rollerblades, and I was rollerbaiting around my kitchen last yesterday, and I was rollerbaiting in the in the garden. I was loving it. I felt young again. I felt and then I was really out of breath. I was sweating, I was like, this is exercise, this is fun. And I think it's always good to tap into those things that you might have done as a teenager or as a child that you didn't necessarily think was fun anymore, but it will, it'll make you smile. And it's I think sometimes the joy of movement isn't just about being on a treadmill in a static position or in a gym, like it can be so much more than that. And I think whatever movement you enjoy, it could be skating, it could be climbing, it could be joining a tennis club, whatever it may be. You've just got to keep trying different things. Go, you know what? I'm looking forward to next Monday night when I do tennis with the girls or whatever. And then you've got your sport, and then you've got your exercise.
KristianGreat tip, isn't it? To uh sort of bring some joy into your life by going back to the things that brought you excitement and joy in the first place. What is it for you, Caitlin? So you want to do some uh some half pipes.
Caitlin CooperHalf pipes, what's that?
KristianJoe mentioned grinding and half pipes.
Caitlin CooperOh, that was part of the roller skating.
KristianAbsolutely, yeah. Right skating, yeah. So I used to love skateboarding. Um I think skateboards have got a bit faster and smaller these days. So I think if I stood on one, I would literally break like about a couple of different bones in my body.
Caitlin CooperYou know what? Growing up, I was a bit of a tomboy because I had two older brothers. So I was a bit of a rollerblader, skateboarder. I just wanted to copy what they were doing.
KristianSo yeah.
Caitlin CooperYeah, go back and do that.
KristianGet back to the half pipes.
Caitlin CooperBut you know what? Listening back to Joe there, what strikes me and we think about strengths is we know that the research consistently shows that people who use their strengths regularly tend to be more engaged, perform better, are more resilient, and as a result of that can experience higher well-being. So Joe's advice about doing what you love, and in our words, doing what gives you energy, isn't just an inspirational thing, but it actually has quite a strong evidence base behind it. So perhaps, you know, that was our last clip. But I think maybe we can leave on a reflective note and actually pose a question to our listeners and maybe ask yourself, what was the last thing you did where you completely lost track of time? Or alternatively, what conversations leave you feeling excited rather than feeling exhausted, or what work activities leave you feeling excited versus exhausted? And then that's kind of often clues to where your strengths might lie if that's something that you are curious about.
KristianI love those questions, Caitlin. I think we should all reflect on those. Fantastic.
Reflections And What Comes Next
KristianI've enjoyed the conversation. So um that's it for our best bits on strength. So if any of these particular snippets were interesting for you, we would recommend to go back and listen to the full episodes. There's links in our show notes, aren't there, along with probably quite a few hours of us contradicting each other at length and then saying, as all the best psychologists do, it depends.
Caitlin CooperWe don't do that.
KristianWe do sometimes. Um maybe it's just me.
Caitlin CooperNo, no. Well, thank you so much, as always, for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we hope you come back for more and listen to some of our ones that are coming out in the future. So there will be some more best bits as we lead up to our hundredth episode. So we hope you enjoy.
