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Believe in People
Believe in People explores the realities of addiction, recovery, and stigma through conversations with those who’ve lived it.
Featuring voices from across the recovery community - individuals with lived experience, frontline professionals, public figures, and policymakers - offering unfiltered insight into the personal and societal challenges surrounding substance use.
Hosted by Matthew Butler and produced by Robbie Lawson, this award-winning series is a trusted platform for dialogue, empathy, and change.
🎙 2024 British Podcast Award Winner - Best Interview
🎙 2025 Radio Academy Award Nominee - Best Speech & Entertainment
🎙 2024 Radio Academy Award Nominee - Best New Podcast
Believe in People
68 | Andy Woodward - The Whistleblower Who Changed Sports History Forever (Part 1)
In the first of a powerful two-part conversation, Andy Woodward joins Believe in People to recount the beginning of a journey that would ultimately expose one of the biggest scandals in British sporting history.
A former professional footballer, Andy was the first to go public with his experience of childhood sexual abuse at the hands of Barry Bennell, a youth coach whose crimes were concealed for decades by a culture of silence within football.
With striking honesty, Andy describes how predators like Bennell groom not only children but entire families, building trust to enable long-term abuse. He explains how the “position of trust” was weaponised, and how the sport’s insular, protective culture became a fortress - one that prioritised clubs over children and reputation over truth.
This episode also explores the wider emotional toll of Andy’s early experiences, including the haunting connection between his abuser and the man who murdered his aunt, a trauma that reverberated across his family and shaped much of his adult life.
Part one lays bare the origins of a profound personal reckoning. It sets the stage for part two, where Andy will speak candidly about the years of pain, addiction, and eventual healing that followed - a testament to how deeply childhood trauma can ripple through a life, and how recovery begins by speaking the truth.
🎧 Part two of Andy’s story continues next week.
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🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)
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This is a Renew, original Recording 2016,. Andy Woodward broke decades of silence to expose the truth, a truth that would shatter the walls of British football and reverberate across the world. His revelation of child sexual abuse at the hands of coach Barry Bunnell wasn't just a personal reckoning. It became one of the most significant disclosures of institutional failure in modern sporting history. For the first time, a former professional footballer stood up, named his abuser and laid bare the culture of silence and complicity that had shielded Predators for generations. It was a moment of seismic courage, and it came at a cost.
Speaker 1:Today, in the first of a two-part story, andy joins believing people to retrace that journey Not just the headline, not just the trauma, but the full weight and the quiet triumphs of survival.
Speaker 1:He speaks not only as a survivor of horrific abuse, but as a man who has walked through the addiction, grief, betrayal, systemic corruption and the raw aftermath of speaking the truth to global headlines. This is a conversation about trauma, about abuse and power, vulnerability and silence, recovery and justice. But more than that, it's about what happens when the news cycle moves on and one man is left alone with a wreckage, trying to rebuild his life from the ashes of someone else's crime. Andy walks us through the earliest signs of grooming, the culture of 1980s football and the devastating ripple effects that abuse has not just on a child but on an entire family. He opens up about how addiction crept in, about self-destruction, and speaks of healing, a therapy, reflection, faith and a fierce refusal to let what happened define the rest of his life. I begin my conversation with Andy today about his reflection on the journey into the seat today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, the journey has been a long journey and we'll talk about it, but I think you know I'll start off with today. Really, and it was a journey in itself and the journey was coming from Manchester, where my home routes were. I passed Manchester City's football ground, the Etihad. I looked at it, I smiled, I stopped off on the way and I came outside the station and I looked up and the sun was shining and I saw a fish and then I saw a water and a fountain and I had a true reflection there in such a positive manner and and I looked and I thought I played for Sheffield United, I'm going to Hull, I'm going to release sort of speak about what happened, and I smiled again and I arrived at Hull and the connection with Robbie came as it did, and he invited me to this and I'm here today.
Speaker 1:And it's a pleasure to have you here, and I often don't research our guests.
Speaker 1:I think one of the unique selling points of this podcast is that I come in blind, that I'm hearing the story for the first time, and for a majority of what you say today I will be hearing for the first time, but I have heard a little bit about your story and it is a difficult topic and it's a difficult conversation and the bravery of yourself to to share it and, I think, being transparent. I watched a short interview that you did in 2016 I think it was with victoria derbyshire, where you spoke about your story and, seeing you there in the interview seat, you looked like a child and I was expecting that today, but you walked into the room with so much confidence and energy and I'm aware that that interview took place almost 10 years ago, so a lot can change and I think it's evident that a lot has changed for yourself. Yeah, tell us about that story to give our listeners an overview of what happened to you, and we'll discuss your journey from that point to where you are now.
Speaker 2:A book tends to start at the beginning, when it all started, tends to start at the beginning when it all started.
Speaker 2:I'll start first in 2016, because that was a poignant moment in my life like there's been many. But in 2016 I decided, decided to go public and I revealed what I'd say now is the biggest revelation, whistleblowing in sporting history. It's been documented and I revealed a truth, a hidden secret, a trauma, something that is in humanity and has been for generations. And I sat the night before and I spoke to Neil Warnock and Stan Turman and we'll talk about how that evolved. But that night was a significant moment in my life where I sat there crying my eyes out that I'd pressed that green button to go to put my face on the front of a national newspaper without anybody knowing, anybody intervening with it, stopping it. They didn't know and that button could have gone two ways. It went the right way, but the wrong way would have been that I wouldn't be sat here today. It was revealed in the Guardian. It was trending above Trump.
Speaker 2:And I revealed a revelation that I didn't know what journey I was going to go on and that is a part, just a part, of my life, but it was significant and it changed the direction of my future because it was about what happened to me as a child and that started before I was born. So those that are watching this and they see about synergy of life, of our journey of life, there's some that will say it goes beyond that with people's DNA. Before I was born, in 1971, my mum was one of 11 children. My auntie was nine months pregnant and she's walking down a road, vulnerable, at night, pitch black, to go and see her boyfriend. A man, a predator, was waiting and that predator took her in her back garden and brutally murdered her. That defined my mum and dad's life, because then they started with the protection. They were damaged. They were damaged. That man was caught, convicted. His name was Ronald Bernal.
Speaker 2:Ten years later well, probably twelve years later pass were crossed again, 10 years of age, playing for Stockport County, stockport Boys. On the pitch, a vulnerable child. A coach came and watched. That coach was Barry Bunnell. I was vulnerable, I was a soft one. The reason I was that it was because my mum and dad nurtured me as a child, protected me. We're the most loving parents. They were damaged from what had happened previous. However, little did they know that this evil man, this coach Barry Bunnell, was going to go on to damage the whole family again, and the reason why I say again is because it was his cousin that murdered my mum's sister that's insane.
Speaker 1:All those things tied together.
Speaker 2:That is the defining moments of life and I know it's hard hitting. It's a lot for people to get their head around. Yeah, yeah. But there's also theories about DNA, about life and generations and paths of life, how they cross and how. But that defined my life, my family's life, yet again. Yeah. And that started when. I was 10 years of age.
Speaker 1:Tell me how it started. Obviously, did you feel like you was targeted for a reason by Baron Bernal? Do you feel like you was chosen? Talk to me about your first meeting with him and how things started to process into abuse, Because I think with abusive relationships an element of trust has to come first. It's rare that it's a case of it just comes out of the blue. It's often a trust-building process before things start to turn into the malevolence that you experienced. Talk to me a little bit about that relationship and how it built up to the point of the first time that you was sexually abused by Barry.
Speaker 2:I mean now I know, the knowing of how it all starts. Yeah. And it starts with relationships. Building a relationship yeah, that's what he mastered From an evil side. Hmm. He knew how to build a relationship, yeah, with my parents. It didn't matter about me as a child, because I was chosen.
Speaker 2:He'd made a team up and he had the in the dark side of humanity he had his own dark gift of identifying from his experiences and his past of who was the vulnerable ones there, who were the softer, the weaker ones. Yeah, he knew which ones to target. He'd also identify the parents, analyze them. What was the background, what was the child's parents like? And that's the grooming process. Yeah, so yes. So yes, was I chosen? Yes, he had a certain type dark hair, that type of image in his sick mind. So, yes, the relationship, the first start, in the first interaction he had modeled himself as a Piedper, great at football, personality, dark skin on the sunbeds, look great, could do every skill in the book. That was his package. As a pedophile, he could morph into different realms of who he was and what he was. So my initial reaction at 10 years of age, as a child, was that he was the best thing in the world. Yeah, my dream of a football ex-footballer. Brilliant, he had all the tricks, et cetera.
Speaker 1:The person who can make your dreams come true. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:So when we're talking about an analogy of you know when you go fishing. Yeah. Our target is the fish. What we do is we hook that fish, but that fish could be several fish. So what I'm talking about here is several fish there. Yeah, I need to hook. Yeah, that can be the families, the parents, the others around that yeah and once he's hooked, all that, the central point of that the child. Child doesn't even need bait. Yeah yeah, got it, got it yeah.
Speaker 1:Because in the interview with Victoria Derbyshire you talked about how he'd asked your parents if you could stay over. Correct me if I'm wrong there, but he asked your parents if you could stay over and that's when it first started to happen. Obviously, like yourself, you say you're in awe of this person. Connections with Manchester City ex-footballer, looked the part, had the knowledge, had the skill set and it's almost like, yeah, I get to spend time with this guy. That sounds incredible, but that's when the abuse started. One of my questions that I had when I watched this, and it could be a period of the time. Maybe we're more aware of this now, but you describe your parents as very protective, loving and nurturing. I, if I try and put myself in that position and a grown man says your child can stay over at my house, I'd be like red flag flag. Absolutely not. Why did your parents let you go?
Speaker 2:over and stay. Because when we're going back to the 80s and what people really find hard to grasp is that when that question when they were so protective of you, why did they allow you to go there? Of of you, why did they allow you to go there? Yeah, his, his, the way that he had orchestrated everything, his grooming side of things, and how he got all the parents and not the children. But the parents all saw it as a dream. He was a dream. He was able to grasp every single one of them so he could pick which ones. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And my mum and dad were also damaged from a past. Yeah, yeah, didn't know that he was related to him.
Speaker 1:I was going to say did they know? Did they make the connection? Oh no, no, this happened way this happened to all of us later in life.
Speaker 2:But my mum did have a moment where she even said when we were older, the name struck in her head. But that team and the parents and the way that he did it and not only did he do it to my team, he did it with every team. So when you think about how he'd orchestrated this, he was a master at it. So when I came into the scene at 10, he'd already done it numerous times with numerous teams. He'd learned to master it. So that's what?
Speaker 1:so it wasn't his first time doing it with yourself, and that team was just something he'd got good at Very good it yeah. So that's what.
Speaker 2:It wasn't his first time doing it with yourself and that team. This is something he'd got.
Speaker 1:he'd got good at Very good at Talk to me about the first time that you had that encounter, that, that sexual encounter with Barry, I believe you was. Was you 10 years old? 11 years old? Yeah, such a young age to even try and comprehend what what is actually happening there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What happened and what was your thoughts when it was happening?
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're comfortable in answering that question, no no, no, I'm, as you can see, I'm here to, I'm here to it's one thing to.
Speaker 1:It's one thing to say before, like everything's up, but then when we talk about it I'm like I don't want to push you obviously too much on anything. No, not at all.
Speaker 2:You see, one of the hardest things in anybody that suffers from significant trauma from a past is it's very, very difficult to stop when we're adults talking about it. Yeah, it's so difficult to to relate to that child. The child is within you, but as an adult we tend to not be able to accept it yeah and we can't think as a child.
Speaker 2:We think as an adult with past trauma, and although those videos are there of it happening, our brain as an adult can't go back to the child within of those events. What was I thinking? What was I feeling Until you've healed? What was I thinking? What was I feeling until you've healed, so I can now disassociate the emotional attachment to that as an adult and.
Speaker 2:So when I was that child I know I was in utmost fear frozen when he first did what he did. When I talk about frozen, I mean frozen, yeah, frozen, yeah, absolutely yeah. Didn't know, never experienced anything like it, but as a 10 year old, I encourage people with trauma now, as a child is, to go around in society and look at that 10 year old and how vulnerable that child is. It's not their fault. No. And the feeling of that first time was ultimate frozen. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And he knew that that was going to be the reaction.
Speaker 1:Hmm, how many times um that? That was going to be the reaction. How many times do you think he was raped by Barry Bunnell?
Speaker 2:Do you know? It's funny you said that because I saw the question was asked and 300, 400, how many times do you want? I've calculated it kind of so from the age of 10, and it's funny. I watched and I said four years. The last time he touched me I was aged 16. That shows you what hold he had over me. So when we're talking six years for a four-year period, I would take the six weeks holidays off. Any holiday period I would be off. I used to not go to school for a week.
Speaker 1:Calculate that every night it's such a significant time for anybody growing up between between 10 and 16. They're what we'd call our informative years and I think with teenagers we'll always see um changes in behavior. Naturally through that time, yeah, but I think now, as as professionals and maybe society, we're more educated on the signs and symptoms of sexual abuse in children and how that might play out. Now I can't imagine that you went through everything that you went through at the hands of barry bunnell and your parents didn't see a change in you. Did they see changes? Was they worried about what was happening to you?
Speaker 1:I think what I'm trying to get at is I don't understand how you can go through what you went through as much as you did and your parents have no idea that that was happening and maybe again it's. This is sound of the times, but I feel like I'd be able to go something's happening there, spending a lot of time with that person. This isn't right. This could be happening. This needs to be investigated and I'd put them dots together really quickly. How did the your family and the people that you know were responsible for you not see what was going on? How did your family and the people that you know were responsible for you not see what was going on. How did he get away with it for so long?
Speaker 2:Well, this is the thing, isn't it? This is the ultimate question that everybody has in 2025. You know, I broke what I did in 2016. Prior to that, there was Jimmy Savile. The same questions how did they get away with it for so long? The the catholic church when it grows yeah the film industry, the music industry. How did they get away with it for so long?
Speaker 1:the only thing I can think of is that people and I'm not talking about your parents here when I mentioned this, but I'm talking about people that was around barry that knew, barry, that he wasn't operating I mean sexually abusing people by himself, maybe, but he would have had people around him. The only thing I can think of is people know, or they may have had an idea, but turned a blind eye to it. That is the only way I can imagine, and it was the same with jimmy saville. We've heard all the stories within the bbc that executives knew but they turned a blind eye.
Speaker 1:There is a power thing there. I mean, if that person's above them, there's the fear of keep my head down, don't say anything, don't get in trouble. The only thing I can think of when we say, how did they get away with it for so long is that people did know, but they chose not to do anything about it out of fear of consequence or repercussions to themselves as an adult. Now, looking back at that, do you think that was the case? Or do you genuinely think people had no idea what he was doing to yourself and so many other young boys?
Speaker 2:firstly, I'm gonna touch on the first question, that you asked me yeah, about how?
Speaker 2:did the parents not question what? What you did there was? You said about how you now, in 2025, yeah, would think, and alarm bells would go whoa, why is he? Why is he staying there a long time? Or they're staying there a long time. That doesn't look right. Guts, go in alarm bells If we go back in history to the 80s and the mindset of people then, where it was the hidden secret. There was no safeguarding, there was nobody talking about it, it wasn't institutionalized, it wasn't out there, nobody was talking about it. And then you can go further back. This has been going on for generations in all areas and industries. Yeah, did anybody speak then? Did any parents speak? Then? Did they put a position of trust, my book, a position of trust, a position of power? Of course you can. This is great.
Speaker 2:You're going to protect my son and daughter the gymnast. You're going to protect my son and daughter, the church. Wow, faith Priest, of course you are Position of power, parents. You can go to church, you can go play football, you can be a gymnast, you can be a swimmer. Go in the music industry. All position of power and trust, I suppose.
Speaker 1:So if we go, sorry to interrupt, but if we go, back Through generations, it was a free for all.
Speaker 2:And the next question you asked Sorry to interrupt, but if we go back through generations, it was a free-for-all. And the next question you asked about those position of power and trust and in these industries, institutes. Did they know about it? The knowing I always use the phrase knowing. The knowing I always use the phrase knowing. Those illicit to it were part of it. Yeah. Some were, some weren't.
Speaker 1:But, knowing, yes, Silence yes, silence is compliance is something that I've heard before. Thank you, and that is it. I think it's one of them. Things really where, like I say, we talk about the sound of the times and things changing. It's just insane. But I think, really, going back to when you did Whistleblower and the importance of these movements that have happened the Me Too movement in Hollywood, you coming forth and breaking silence here, as you said, it's because of you doing what you've done why the systems are changing, why there is more education, why position of trust and position of authority Now I deliver safeguarding training and we talk a lot about positions of trust and just because someone is in that position doesn't necessarily mean they're a trustworthy person.
Speaker 1:And I think I mean mean look at the the sarah everard case with the police. That was a police officer who committed that crime against her. The one person that people will naturally feel safe with would be a police officer. So the injustice and the systemic corruption and everything that goes on it happens everywhere and I'm really pushing that position of trust. Just because someone is in a position of trust doesn't mean they can be trusted.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And you use the word corruption very delicate word, corruption, and it's certainly in our modern times and right now, as we speak, there is more and more people coming out and talking about that word corruption. Very powerful word, but very true.
Speaker 1:Barry Burnell died in 2023, I believe two years ago from cancer. I believe it was Now. There was stories that I, again, like I say, once I watched the interview with Victoria Derbyshire, I went and started looking at a few other articles and I saw that there was stories about how he'd been beat up in prison. When you saw those stories and I imagine you maybe saw them in real time when these things was coming up how did you feel? When you found out things like that were happening to him in prison? And when he died, how did you feel then? Well, he served 10 years of the prison sentence as well, hadn't he? Yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah yeah so if we're, I'll go off what you, the direction and the questions that you ask. So when he died in 2023, I'm a big believer of I've told you the journey. I alluded to it at the start. I'd been on a long healing journey, which we'll talk about about the eight years since doing the Victoria Derbyshire, but you've asked me that. So on that day it was the Saturday before.
Speaker 2:Now my gut always tells me something is wrong and on the Saturday I was due to do a talk and ironically, it was in Oldham, the central hub of grooming gangs, et cetera, and I was doing a talk there to talk about what had happened to me and also to support those that have been affected by the grooming gangs, the paedophilia.
Speaker 2:I felt sick on that morning and I didn't want to do the talk because something wasn't right and I go with my gut and I felt poorly, but I'm all about helping others. So I did the talk and I sat down on the wall afterwards and I felt to myself something isn't right, something's happened and I started to worry about my mum, because she's had cancer four times, and started to worry about my kids, or something happened to them, and I heard nothing. They were fine, but I knew something wasn't right and on the Monday morning I got the phone call off Danny Taylor, of all people, to tell me that he died on the Saturday. It was like something dark was coming out of me and leaving me. He was gone. You asked me how I felt.
Speaker 1:Nothing. I had a feeling he was going to say that Because I think some people may think that I suppose that's the comeuppance. He's dead, Des it rightly so, but for someone who would put you through everything that you'd gone through, I don't think anything. When I talked about the assaults in prison, I don't think there's anything that could have happened to that person that would have made you feel better. I imagine a lot of what happened was met with nothingness.
Speaker 2:No, numbness, no, but what I'd also identified with that and this is where I not alarm bells but light bulbs went off with me because what I could see, feel, because I'm out of feel, touch, see, I could clearly see that I'd healed fully on my journey of recovery from what he'd done to me. Looking back at 2016, when I did that first interview with Victoria and I said I'd had 20 years of therapy and I'm okay, I was still a child there. Yeah, I was still on my healing process. But move on 20, 2023, which we'll talk about what I've gone, done in between all that, I was still on my healing process hmm, I've had to heal through that where 2023 I felt nothing and many others that were part of that have gone on several different paths.
Speaker 2:I can't speak for them, but my gut saying they haven't truly healed Because they will talk, they will do, they want to help people, etc. But until you get to that moment where there's nothing, it's called balance. Yeah. Everybody in life wants balance. Yeah. You can only get to that balance once you've truly healed. So I didn't feel anything. Balance, balance, yeah.
Speaker 1:Talking about the initial disclosure on the news, I guess, with where you was, front page of the news, hot topic, the story in everyone's mouths, and then, like everything in life, the news moves on to something else. Do you feel like in some way, that you blew the whistle, disclosed? What you did was I'm going to use the word exploited by the media and then just dropped and then forgotten about, almost worsening your struggles? Now everybody knows in some way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, in the way everybody knows, yeah, but where were you at after that, after that initial disclosure? Yeah, well, what I'll start After?
Speaker 2:that initial disclosure. Yeah, well, what I'll start with was the initial Victoria. Yeah, um, I was really vulnerable and I saw that child in me and some of the questions were low ballers. Yeah, you know I was kind of whoa. Was it live as well?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was live Even more, even more difficult.
Speaker 2:Even more difficult. Yeah, the green room. She was lovely. Yeah, let's do this. I just wanted to get it out there. I didn't want to. You know, I wasn't bothered about going on TV, of course, yeah, yeah, it wasn't about that. It was never about that.
Speaker 1:Just the quickest way to get the information out there, isn't it as well?
Speaker 2:yeah, and, to expose it, it went massive that day. They were straight on to me. People can make their own assumptions. Bbc yeah, we want you following morning on national tv live. National TV live still really recovering from the initial doing that Very vulnerable, yeah, extremely. And you could see it. You saw it, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, what about?
Speaker 1:that poor child. That's it. Yeah, like I said, I thought when I'm watching it watching it before today I just wanted to give you a hug. I said Jesus it watching it before today. I just wanted to give you a hug, I said Jesus.
Speaker 2:Christ, yeah. And I was just in this massive whirlwind of in my mind. I need to expose this, I need to help people. Come on, others come help, help, help, because that's all the focus was then. Did that? It then blew again and I end up doing so many interviews. It was phenomenal, but in my head I was just going, yeah, I'll do it, because what we also find with a person that suffered like that, we tend to organically be a yes person. We can't say no. So I was doing all these interviews and what was significant is, a week or so later, the other some more lads had come forward and it was come back, let's do another impactive, powerful something. Andy was on his own, lonesome. Now we've got a few here that can all speak.
Speaker 2:It became a very powerful, powerful piece of live TV. But when you watch that second one which you probably haven't done, and when you do you will see it I'm on the end crying my eyes out, couldn't cope with it. Vulnerable, broken, great for TV. Was it good for Andy Woodward? That's the question I ask. If anybody's to watch it and watch the two episodes, they will see how the media actually actually they do not care about humanity and the effects on those people. Even to this day, I've watched the effects it can have on somebody's mental health and that would be a great example to watch, not because of me, or Andy Woodward, or Andy on his own yeah, vulnerable child Andy with a group watching them all who are numb, broken, kind of yeah, we'll do this. Kind of yeah, we'll do this. And me, on the end, bursting into tears, couldn't cope with it, watching everything in front of him, seeing the others that he hadn't seen since they were children. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh ouch.
Speaker 1:Going back to it then, when all this happened to you, was you aware that it was happening to other people as well, or did you feel isolated, that you was the only one that was being sexually abused by this person?
Speaker 2:No, and I was reluctant to really go for it on that following day because it was like straight after. But I knew, yeah, I knew, I'd seen, seen it, I've witnessed it and I knew of all them. I was in the same rumors, I'd seen it. But what he chose to do is choose two to start with. Yeah, unfortunately for me, one of those left after 16 months or so, and that's when the parents started to ask me loads of questions. Are you sure Mike, stop staying now. I don't mind saying his name, but stop staying now, are you okay, andy? Yeah, I'm fine. Do you want, andy? Yeah, I'm fine. Do you want to go? Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I had seen all the others. We were in rooms, we were in dorms, we were in any hands and you name it. He did that for his own little gratification of touching, but two were the two that pretty much lived with him so there was the option there.
Speaker 1:Your parents, obviously, I mean. Had they suspected anything at that time, when they were saying you don't have to, it's up to you? How do you think they suspect anything at that point?
Speaker 2:I think they certainly got a feeling of something quite right here, um, but again we've got to try and get our minds to think back to the 80s, yeah, yeah, which is so hard. It's so hard to do it because our brain will automatically just go oh, come on, because we picture it how we would picture it yeah, as now, as adults, do you understand that it's so hard to?
Speaker 1:I know I, I you know and my parents.
Speaker 2:Oh what the guilt that they have had to live with is phenomenal yeah, but they know you don't blame them, I'm sure no, no, no, no but they still feel that guilt for it.
Speaker 1:No, can I ask so? Even though that your parents was giving you that you don't have to, you continue to go. Now, talking about sexual exploitation, perpetrators can often, or sometimes, coerce their victims into doing things because if they don't, there will be consequences. Was anything like that pushed onto yourself? Was? Was it a case of if you don't come to my house, x, y and z could happen? Was there any manipulation or fear? Because you talked about being fearful, I guess what I'm trying to get into, the mindset of what made you keep going back, despite being sexually abused. What was the thing that kept you going back? Was it just the idea of I'm Barry Burnell? I can make your dreams come true? Was that the main enticing point for you to keep going back to him? I'd say.
Speaker 2:The main thing that people will identify with this and it's not just in football, it's in relationships is once they've got the power over you that can be a child or adult and you are vulnerable that power then turns into putting you in fear, fear of that relationship, and that fear, and that word fear, is throughout in humanity Domestic abuse, child abuse, abuse from a position of power, relationships, so that fear as a child becomes so much more. When a football coach, I can end your dreams Like that yeah, I want to be a footballer, I want to be a swimmer.
Speaker 1:It's the dream, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Relationships Domestically. Oh, what about the kids? I can't.
Speaker 1:I can't leave him of course, or her talking about everything that you went through, talking about those informative years, looking at previous participants on this podcast and those with substance misuse problems in general. Sometimes those that go down the path of drug use, subsequently suffering from addiction, have a trauma, like yourself. When did drugs and alcohol start to play a point in your life, and was it used as a coping mechanism of escapism from this trauma?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll firstly hit the first point that you said there about a majority of people. It's a deep one. This Because and people will hopefully see this in themselves A huge percentage of people in this world whether it's see addiction is a big A word, but in humanity what has been given to us is alcohol, drugs, you name it. They're out there. What everybody will do when they've had a bad day at work ever. I'll have a drink, or I'll do this or I'll do this. The problem is is they won't step above that level of binge or addiction or whatever, but they will still do that because they can manage that.
Speaker 2:When you've had trauma and 99% of that trauma comes from childhood and relationships we generate as children and as a child, I've met hundreds and hundreds of people that are either homeless addiction to drugs, drink you name it relationships, sexual gambling all those where they say I'm an addict will have had some trauma as a child. They didn't choose to have that trauma, it was put on them, it's not their fault. And then later down the line, as adults, it's you're an addict, it's your fault. Get some help, sort yourself out.
Speaker 1:As if it's as simple as that. What's wrong with?
Speaker 2:you Get on with it. Huh, what's wrong with you? Get on with it? And all of those people turn out to be empathic, good-hearted souls. They can be on a street, they can be wherever they have empathy, they have heart. They still have that energy, but the addiction has been the causation, is a trauma I get it with with this job.
Speaker 1:You know, I've had friends, family, said to me in the past like I don't know you could do that job, I don't know you could work with those people, and it's like, do you know what?
Speaker 1:I'll be honest, those people are good people, yeah, they're good people who bad things have happened to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think this is the whole point of this podcast really is to listen to the people like yourself who have lived experience of trauma, because I often say this if you put yourself in the position of someone like yourself, yeah, and most myself included couldn't cope with a fraction of the trauma that you've experienced, the fraction of the trauma of what our service users have experienced, yet the idea that they put themselves on a higher pedestal because they don't have addiction problems, and all that tells to me is that you know what.
Speaker 1:You probably had a much better childhood than these people who are struggling now, and I think that's the heartbreaking thing, that's the stigma of it. Now, when I walk past a homeless person through the city centre, I don't look at them and think what a waste of space, like some people do. The first thing that pops into mind is I wonder what happened to that person, and that's all it is is about having that empathy and that understanding and that curiosity of what brought that person to where they are and, much like yourself, people go through the trauma, they go through the addiction, but they're survivors.
Speaker 1:They're in recovery Absolutely, and not everybody can do that. You've done a lot of work on yourself. 20 years of therapy, yeah, and you can see that when you come in and the confidence and the way you dress and the way you present yourself, it's wonderful to see. But I think if I saw you 20 years ago, I'd be looking at a very different person.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that is the point of what we're doing here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And there's two falsities as well what you're just talking about there. I think the word vulnerability is vulnerable is key to this, because, as a child, we're vulnerable. We didn't ask for all this. We didn't In humanity. We're not born into this world. We're born into this world with love. What does a mum do? Love heart. But those paths that we're set on as children, but also we're vulnerable as adults, because that defines us, yeah, and it puts us in that vulnerable position. So those that have gone down those roads and paths of, you know, self-medicate, block this out, get it out of my head. Yeah, numbs it, it takes it away, it obliterates it, it's destruction. We know that, but they're still vulnerable. So what do they do? They go for help. Yeah, help me yeah, and I.
Speaker 1:there's something about that because I think, especially as a man, I think there is that stereotypical view of men don't need help, they sort their own shit out, sort of thing. Going back to yourself what age did you blow the whistle on the sexual abuse? How old was you?
Speaker 2:I was 43. 43.
Speaker 1:So 33 years, from the age of 10 to where you was, where your whistle blew. Can I ask why did it take so long to blow the whistle, to be open about that abuse? Because, as we've just said then, was it to do with this? I can't show vulnerability, I can't show weakness. Was it about the football industry in itself? What was it that took? What was the reason why it took so long? And why at 43?
Speaker 2:It's called a journey of life. My journey was this journey. I went through everything that I just talked about there. I was vulnerable as a child. I experienced that he ended up getting really deeply into my family, my sister Engaged in a relationship with her. I couldn't get out. There was no out for me. Football was my life. I ended up in that. I always say the ring fence of football Protected. It's a bit like the castle and the moat. Very hard when you're in there to get out because some people you've seen managers that are old, old, old, old, old stay in that insular protection they think they are protected by because it's the most powerful sport in the world. It's a ring fence, it's a fortress, isn't it?
Speaker 1:oh, you've got it. I like that fortress.
Speaker 2:Their fortress, football is FIFA, fa. It's hard once you're in it. It's hard then I come out of that and what do I do? So link up with what I talked about about vulnerability as a child experiencing something so bad, whether it's mother and father beating them up, physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, whatever abuse. Some people don't have it as much, but it can trigger them later in life. So what I did to contain that? I wanted to help others, so I applied football's gone, panic disorder, lost my football, I'm out. I'm out of it. Why didn't I do it then? Nah, I want to help people, so I applied for the police, the fire service, prison service. Ah, I can help people. I was getting a lot of pressure off my ex-wife. You need to earn a living, very volatile, controlling relationships, because that's all I knew.
Speaker 1:That's all I knew.
Speaker 2:Being controlled, you know, and those people that have probably gone through that path of life and they've kind of gone. Why do I keep? This is another, I'll go back to it. But they'll say why is it? I'm a nice person, I've been through so much. Why is it I attract these horrible people, these horrible men or women that just take advantage of me? Why do I always attract them? Because we're vulnerable, because we're empaths, because they see it.
Speaker 1:And they're dead nice at first.
Speaker 2:Oh no, they turn when they've got, yeah, petition of power, petition of trust. But that's another story.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, but it's true, isn't it? It all links into your experiences. It all links into humanity.
Speaker 2:So this journey that I went on was about helping. First, at the time I didn't know, but it was about helping people, so I'd got in all three. I it was about helping people, so I'd got in all three. I wanted to do that. So those people that don't really, or may have had events as children will also, may not have gone down the path of addiction, may not have gone down the path of, you know, destroying their lives, but they will go. Do you know what? I want? To go into helping people. So what I want to do is I'll go into NHS, I'll be a nurse, I'll be a practitioner, I want to be a doctor, I want to help people. Prison service I'll do a service to help those prisoners that have gone in there. Maybe I can help them offend a manager or whatever, but they're doing that from their past, you see, because they're empaths and they want to help people.
Speaker 1:I get that yeah.
Speaker 2:But in all those institutes there's some bad ones in there, Of course, yeah, but the good ones they actually do that from heart.
Speaker 1:So you see that analogy, you see how that all crosses over.
Speaker 2:So that's the path that I went down, so to take that longevity out there. Why did it take till I was 43? Because I did 13 years in the police and that was an education for me. I see my path, I see my past. I saw everything in there. I I went for crew in 2003, silently, because I thought this needs to stop. So I claimed against Crewe. And guess what happened? On the day of the claim in the civil court, the judge got changed. And this gets deep. But I'm not going to go into it and guess what happened. Four barristers to my one. My barrister said done deal, everything's there. They can pay you out, you can have a bit of money and live your life Great, but I want it to be there. Hold on a minute. I'm a police officer, but it can get out. Shut down, case over, go back to being a police officer. The judge changed on that day.
Speaker 1:To this day. I don't know, but did you get any financial compensation? No, no, nothing, yeah done.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they all high-fiving each other in the court and people in humanity. You see now people coming up and going, judges making decisions. What happened? But it did happen. So so I tried that. You see, yeah, yeah, yeah, 13 years in the police. They then got me said why did you go and see Barry Bunnell in prison? Because of this, right, we'll protect you, andy, in the police. You've been through so much trauma. You won't have to deal with any sex cases. You won't have to deal with this. Career goes on 13 years in. Just before that.
Speaker 2:Gary Speed's death. I did an article in the magazine Whoa In front of the big bosses. What's going on here, Andy? I told them I was sinking, going under, because that really took me to suicide. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Within 18 months I was gone, sacked Bull Bit of beacons here. Yeah, why, why, andy, why, Whoa, that's fine Therapy along the way and all that a of help. And I'm lucky, I'm lucky those people are watching this and I'll look at the camera. They haven't got that luxury, but they should have. They should have, but yeah. So I'd had loads of therapy. 43. I've had enough of this. I've had enough of you lot. I've had enough of football. I've had enough of what's happened to me in my life. I want to talk about it. And all I did. It was ironic how it happened, because my therapist had said write it down, andy. This is like a horror movie, a full Netflix thing whatever.
Speaker 2:Because I talked about the past and previous and I met James Bentley from Barry and he said I know Danny Taylor, he's written a book. And then Danny came and it was just like boom.
Speaker 1:So that's why, that's why it's corruption at all levels in your experience? I'm guessing yeah, and it just goes to show that you know trying to do things properly, professionally, as you did. This is why you've got a whistleblower.
Speaker 2:This is what took you to that point, I'm guessing.
Speaker 2:And I'm not perfect. I've made massive mistakes in my life. I've been married four times. I've got five children again. All the destruction of a past. Yeah, not an excuse, because we have free will. There's a thing called free will. We choose our own path in some ways. But there's also there's the past of the dark, because I, I go light and dark and sometimes people and in like situations can take us down a dark path. Yeah, that we don't want to go down, we don't, but it does take us there and I've made many mistakes in life, but accepting them, owning them and then coming back aligning in the in the victoria day excuse me, in the victoria day for sure interview, she asked you about your sister and her relationship with barry bunnell as well.
Speaker 1:At the time of that interview you said you didn't want to discuss it.
Speaker 2:And completely understandable Live.
Speaker 1:TV. You know. You said then about being put on the spot it was a low baller, it was, yeah, I mean. I'm guessing you weren't expecting that question to come up. No, talk to me about that then, because, talking about abuse, as you've said earlier, they found a way in. They found a way in with your mum and dad. Yeah, yeah, and it's part of the reason why he? Was in your life for so long. Talk to me about that relationship, and I mean because I guess you know he's a paedophile.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know sexual interest in young boys? Yeah, marrying your sister, mm-hmm, do you feel like I mean? Was your sister groomed? Was she older than you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, talk to him about that entire process if you're comfortable in doing so now, Of course and some people will resonate with that, because I always do a quick check- Mm. As you see them a lot. Well, I am what I am now and I hope people sort of like see this. Mm, I hope people sort of like see this and invite them and want to inspire people. But as a child, you know part of his process. I don't want to go into too much detail, but I've since found out that there was a couple of other lads, a few.
Speaker 2:A few are no longer with us, God bless them, but their sisters were also targeted the same pattern. Now I've done a lot of reflection and this was part of his MO, as they say, part of what he did, Because once he got that far into the family he would use Target the sister in the relationship. So he'd even go to that length to actually see if they got a sister.
Speaker 2:That's a pawn in his game of chess. So we revert to game of chess. He's the. He's not just the king, he's a king and queen he knows every move and he can move here, there and everywhere. But the poor pawn was my sister and the reason she was because it's a great smoke screen. Using a human being for that purpose is beyond cruel and my sister never spoke about it. It and we never spoke about it, but it's been a journey.
Speaker 1:it's been a journey with my sister because I imagine she's going through a lot herself in terms of that trauma and and I'm guessing she was completely unaware of what what he had done to you yeah, is she your.
Speaker 2:She your older sister, younger sister.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's my older sister. What was the age gap between your sister and 18 months? Okay, oh, so they're quite close to yeah, okay, so I thought, with it being a sister, I thought they'd been a much older, younger relationship, so quite close to each other.
Speaker 2:She was a child, okay, and what's significant about this? About a responsibility as organizations that are supposed to be there to protect. She gave a statement as a female in 1998 to the police about what he'd done to her. I gave a statement. A group of boys she gave a statement on her own as a female, to say what he'd done to her. Yeah, and guess what happened to her statement?
Speaker 1:Disregarded or taken serious.
Speaker 2:In a drawer. Okay, gone away. Yeah, she never got justice, okay.
Speaker 1:When I say age gap, I mean the age gap between Barry and your sister. What's the age gap between them two?
Speaker 2:Well, the same as mine. So Ben-El was the same age as my mum. Okay, yeah, born in 52.
Speaker 1:So at that time, so she was significantly younger than him. Oh yeah, ah see, yeah, that's what I was. She was 14. So she was groomed as well, then.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the definition of rape. She was raped. She reported that back then and God bless her. She's had to live this and be quiet and silent and not say anything and live with that burden. She's also. She had two children with him okay I've got a nephew and niece, my beautiful souls in the world yeah they know what he is.
Speaker 2:They've had troubles the pair of them because the knock-on effects, the ripple effects, but they're great. My nephews had issues, but he's great now. This story and, oh, it's magnitude of it. The ripple effect, yeah, but my sister's had to go through all that so. So what we did was, when I broke the story in 2016, she was a bit like these people that go, not accepting this. She had not attacked me, but she was protecting herself. Oh no, oh no, andy. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we, we distant, and then we've come back in a full circle and we are like, because for her children as well, you know, I suppose it's the truth of the matter, but they have to grow up knowing their father was a monster, absolutely, and that's going to be difficult for them to be growing up. Absolutely, and you said earlier about DNA.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you talked about his cousin and what he'd done to your aunt. I mean, I'm not going, not gonna, you know, put put words into their mouth, but there could be that almost fear of what is that? Yes, what if that's in me, do you know what I mean? All these questions that they're going to be experiencing so I understand why your sister would want to protect them as much as possible.
Speaker 1:You have a duty to naturally say what you said because, as well as yourself, it turned out that there was 80, 80 boys I think that was recorded that had been abused by him. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Oh, no More. Oh, I've got, I've got. Yeah, oh, yeah. And you know what? They made a decision to run a trial on 12 adults, and of those 12 adults, they said it would be the most serious. So you can see my tone when we use our voice. It's like music vibration. My tone changed there and the reason it changed is because this is wrong. And the reason it changed is because this is wrong. 12 boys, they said it was going to be two cases. One case 12.
Speaker 2:The most serious offences. They chose the lads that had come out in the media Interesting. And the second case I think they got down to. I think by the length of time it took to do the second one. Everyone had dropped out bar two. Too long, too much trauma, too much. There was in excess, I think, about 190 odd Jesus. Where's their justice? Yeah, come on system. Yet in America you got tried and got so many life sentences. Yeah, yet they all those victims.
Speaker 1:Yet there's been other cases where there's been multiple, multiple victims of cases that have ran and gone to court. They said 12. Come on, what about those victims? It really was a monster, and when I say this, I mean there's so much emphasis on perpetrators like Jimmy Savile because of who he was in the media. Yeah, yeah, but I'm surprised that learning about barry bunnell.
Speaker 1:Today is the first time that I I've heard of him, based on looking at your story prior to this, this interview. Yeah, this was the first time I've heard of him and it might be the first time that some of our listeners have heard of him as well. I feel like everybody. Everybody should know who this person is based on what he's done. But, as you've said, they've taken a very small amount of cases from the media and ironically, it's the ones that got media attention.
Speaker 1:Of course, where is the justice? Where for all these people? And almost to the point of, it's not not just the amount of people, even if he, even if he'd ribs the 190 boys once horrendous, but if it was with you, 300 times how many were these others? This is constant. That man was offending at least daily. To be able to do what he did in the time he did it, he must have been offending daily. I am surprised that this person isn't front page of everything and is a star commander. And you said about the position of trust. He should be the, the poster boy and the case in point of what position of trust is and how it can be manipulated, and I just found it ridiculous that again I'm learning about this person and the atrocities that he's committed for the first time today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, like I said, it was global. I've done every magazine.
Speaker 1:I'm sure, yeah, but it goes back to the media being a flash in the pan. You've got it.
Speaker 2:And then you've got it. You've got it. And the other thing as well is what I want to really sort of highlight. There are 180, 90 that have put pen to paper that there could. There could be much more, oh, industrial scale, because he also had links to, um private schools. How did he have links to private schools? How did he have the authority just to walk into these dorms and leave me in a car for an hour and a half with no gaming things, just steamed up windows a few days a week to different? Well, it's a bit like jimmy saville, isn't it? How did he get these authorities to go in to hospitals and private schools? Who's behind that? Yeah, who's a part of that?
Speaker 2:Oh, one day I'll I will talk deep, I'll do a deep dive into this, but it does. It does highlight that you know and you I'll. I'll take it back on that balance that you were talking about before, about about my nephew and about how he must feel, about the DNA and the fear and the fear of probably millions around the world that have gone through these processes and the ripple effects and the harm that it does, and the worry is it in my DNA Because my brother or sister or uncle. They're monsters, you know, but it's difficult that they find that. But he's been able to come through that and he's on the other side of that now and he's had a journey to go on Journey being the key point of what we've we've talking about today, looking at your recovery and how you've rebuilt yourself.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about what recovery looks like for you today wow, what a journey.
Speaker 2:So when we talk about recovery. So you asked about did I go down a road of alcohol or did I choose those self? So the football because I was so focused on not giving in a warrior type, I need to be a footballer. Blah, blah, blah. I lost my football and then I went straight into the police very strict kind of institute. So in some ways I was lucky.
Speaker 2:I had escaped it until a period in the police when I started getting really thrown heavily when they said they'd protect me. They put me on every sex case that you can think of. After Gary Speed took his life, I went. Then it was I need something to null this. Null this pain.
Speaker 2:Because I'm sat in a booth watching for eight hours a day pedophilia videos, jesus, and you think about a duty of care they had, knowing you'd been that, what you'd been. I've been through all that, knowing that I'd done that magazine article about gary speed, knowing my vulnerability and then throwing all the files kept coming at me and because I'm a yes person, yeah, I'll do that, yeah, I'll do that. So it was not until then that that poison alcohol got me, and that was probably 2013. So I'd escaped it because of those reasons. But when my my french. But when the shit hit the fan there, yeah, what did I go to? Yeah, I picked up and I was a drink I drank before but I didn't have, I didn't binge because I had to be like football. Yeah, police, police, they don't. Some in football went down that road and yeah.
Speaker 2:When they finished the football straight on that, because you feel like you've lost your life when you come out of that. What we talked about the fortress yeah, cause it is a fortress no protection afterwards yeah, so mine was later on and I went on a journey then. So when I broke the story in 2016 previous to that I'd been binging and I hit it hard, which I'd probably save for another because there's another.
Speaker 1:There's another story we could talk about this for hours.
Speaker 2:Realistically, there's another story about how I lost my job, which is powerful, but I'd gone into this binge, binge, binge binge and I was going right okay, give it a rest when I had my therapy before I broke the story. The therapy helped me, but I'd gone through all this globally. I was invited by Pele you know everything's like and you say to me how did you have all of that? And then now Andy Woodward has been silenced for four years, five years, whatever. There's a reason behind that as well. But when I was there and Pele had invited me and Pele, my idol, the pinnacle of football- the pinnacle of football says Andy, come to Santos Now.
Speaker 2:If that isn't as powerful as it comes in football, the greatest footballer of all time not only invites me, not only invites me, tells me to come to his museum, and Gordon Taylor knew it at the PFA. Fifa were told about it, fifa were told about it, the FA were told about it. Can you help? This is me. Can you help me? Do you want to be a part of this? It's great for you, andy. No, thank you.
Speaker 2:So Sky News, come out, I do this. Go into Santos. The museum, all live TVs, everything. Andy Woodward's here and his 58 World Cup players were there to see me. I got no ego. I was so grateful and I was like, wow, but I was there for a purpose, on my journey to help the children. So I did my public speaking, I went to these meetings and it changed the law for children. Job done for me, wow, what a proud moment. But I was there To probably 18 months later, two years later, making a film the BBC promised to do. You know, floodlights, it's going to be ace, we're going to put it out to the world On. That journey took me to the darkest places. The darkest, I mean dark.
Speaker 2:Imagine I'm on the park where I was a child and I used to go to that park of safety for me yeah when he was doing what he was doing. I would return back to that park, because that's what we also do. I'm sat there with two bottles of cider oh no job. I've been silenced, I've been destroyed, I've been taken out. Why have you done this to me? All I wanted to do was help. All I wanted to do was be a part of you. All I wanted to do was safeguard children. Why have you?
Speaker 2:put me here and I took a phone call off the producer from the bbc, andy, there's going to be another delay. I'm really sorry. We'll come back to you. Cry my eyes out on the phone to them. Please help me. I am at my lowest point. I don't want to be here anymore. He's turned around. Don't worry, andy, you'll be all right. I went missing. I went down the road and lay on a railway track. I waited half an hour for a train to take me out.
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