Patti Clark: Alcohol, Relapse & Women’s Recovery - Breaking Generational Patterns

In this episode of Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma, Patti reflects on a lifetime shaped by silence, trauma, and survival. Growing up in a dysfunctional home in 1970s San Francisco - marked by alcoholism, emotional neglect, and parents who barely spoke - she began using alcohol and drugs at just 13 to escape overwhelming pain. By 16 she had lost her mother to alcoholism, a loss that profoundly shaped her understanding of addiction, identity, and generational trauma.

Patti shares candidly about early experiences with hallucinogens during the counterculture era, the years she spent bartending in Alaska amid heavy cocaine use, and the moment she chose life over self-destruction. She describes the powerful impact of her first women-only 12-step meeting, the birth of long-term sobriety, and the choice to get clean before having children so she would never repeat the patterns she grew up with.

After nearly 13 years in recovery, Patti later faced relapse - driven by disconnection, loss of community, motherhood identity shifts, and the seductive “yummy mummy” drinking culture. She unpacks how secrecy, co-dependency, and convincing self-talk sustained her relapse, and the moments that finally brought clarity: writing her first book while still drinking, confronting her own hypocrisy, and acknowledging that recovery requires honesty, therapy, and belonging - not just abstinence.

Together, Patti and Matt explore the deeper roots of addiction: trauma, loneliness, the search for meaning, and the societal and gendered pressures that shape women’s drinking. Patti critiques patriarchal elements of traditional 12-step structures, highlights the importance of women-centred spaces, and explains why she has gone on to start recovery groups in New Zealand, Portugal, and beyond.

This is a rich and layered conversation about breaking generational cycles, redefining identity in motherhood, and building a recovery community grounded in compassion, inclusion, and truth.

In this episode:

• Growing up in silence, emotional neglect and an alcoholic home
• Early use of alcohol, speed and acid from age 13
• Hallucinogens in 1970s San Francisco drug culture
• Losing her mother to alcoholism at 16
• Bartending in Alaska, cocaine use, and the “fork in the road” moment
• Getting sober before having children to break multi-generational patterns
• Women-only 12-step spaces and the power of belonging
• Moving to New Zealand and the loss of recovery community
• Motherhood, purpose collapse and the pull of “mummy wine culture”
• The psychology of relapse: secrecy, co-dependency and self-negotiation
• Writing a book while drinking and the confrontation with honesty
• Creating women’s meetings and broader, non-pedantic recovery spaces
• Trauma as a root cause, subjective suffering, and the need for therapy
• Finding your people and why some recovery rooms “suck”

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🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” - Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

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🎙️ Facilitator: Matthew Butler
🎛️ Producer: Robbie Lawson
🏢 Network: ReNew 

Transcript

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Setting The Stage: Meet Patty

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is a renew original recording. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award nominated and British Podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery, and stigma. My name is Matthew Butler, and I'm your host, or as Alex said, your facilitator. In this episode, I sit down with Patty, who reflects on growing up at a silent and alcoholic home in 1970s San Francisco. Turning to alcohol and drugs in her early teens to escape emotional pain, losing her mother at 16, getting sober just before effective birthday to break generational patterns, and later facing relapse after nearly 13 years in recovery. Patty reflects on a lifetime shaped by trauma, silence, and survival. Our conversation explores emotional neglect, hallucogens in 1970s drug culture, family roles, motherhood, purpose, and how connection, community, and women-centred recovery spaces support a more compassionate and expansive understanding of addiction and long-term recovery.

First Drinks At Thirteen

SPEAKER_00 0:55

I begin today's conversation right at the very beginning of Patty's drug and alcohol use, age just 13.

SPEAKER_05 1:00

I was brought up in a very dysfunctional family. My own mother died of alcoholism when I was 16. And the way that I learned to deal with the dysfunction in my family was to drink and use. I'm originally from San Francisco, from the Bay Area, California. And I was raised in the 60s and 70s. And so there were a lot of ways to numb out and not be present. So my father had left our house when I was 12. My mother's drinking progressed, and I just started checking out. I started using drugs and alcohol constantly, really, when I was 13. And all through high school, I was taking speed almost daily. There was so much. I mean, it's hard to describe what that period was like in San Francisco. And it was so plentiful. And so there was a lot of a lot of acid, a lot of speed, a lot of a lot of drugs. And I was in so much pain that I just wanted to check out. And so if somebody had something, I would take it and I wouldn't ask questions. But what worked best was alcohol. So I was drinking to blackout almost every weekend by the time I was 14, 15. And it was uh my way of escaping, my way of leaving. And my mother, as I said, eventually died when I was 16. So my father, who had been out of the picture since 12, came back and moved into the house with me. My sister was away at at college. She went to Berkeley. And so suddenly my father had moved back in, and I was just this wild child. And so trying to navigate that presented its own problems. But yeah, that to answer your question in a nutshell, I started drinking at 13, 14, taking drugs in order to numb out in order to leave because my upbringing was so painful. And as any addict knows, the best way to escape pain is to numb it completely. And there's a lot of different ways to do that in addiction, but this was very available and present.

Inside A Silent Alcoholic Home

SPEAKER_00 3:35

What made the family so dysfunctional? You talk about you, your father not living with you, your mom having obviously problems of alcohol. Were they the main factors of what made that home dysfunctional for you?

SPEAKER_05 3:45

Yeah. I mean, myriad ways. My father was also an alcoholic, but he looked good. He drove a nice car, he wore a tie.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Can't be an alcoholic if you drive a tie.

SPEAKER_05 3:58

Exactly. And that's what he said. I mean, we make a joke about it, Matt, but that's exactly right. My mother was the identified problem because she was messy. She drank all day and was, yeah, was a mess. It was easy to be the identified problem. Whereas my father with this tie and his nice car and he owned a business, he was fine. He'd go out for you know long alcohol-fueled lunches, but he was respectable. So he wasn't the identified problem, but he was also an alcoholic. So I have the two. I have the two there. And and I'm not exaggerating, people always say, Patty, you must be making this up. I'm really not. I do have a tendency toward hyperbole. So I do own that. But honestly, I remember my mother and father saying maybe, I don't know, a handful of words to each other in my entire upbringing. They did not talk. So the tension was so thick in my house that I mean, even now I get a knot in my stomach and my shoulders go up, and it's just tangible. So the dysfunction, he never hit us. Well, that's a lie. I mean, he did we did get spankings and hit with a belt. So that's that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

But not to the point that maybe would have been recognized as physical abuse at that time.

SPEAKER_05 5:17

Exactly, exactly. We weren't abused according to some levels that are described. And you know, we we knew we were loved, my sister and I, but the dysfunction was tangible in the darkness, in the in the lack of communication. On on a, you know, uh, thank the universe. My sister and I both did well academically, and not for trying, we were just gifted with that. And so I knew my way out was going to be to study and get the hell out of there. And so that was my escape route. But yeah, it's it's really interesting because a lot of people that I speak to in addiction will describe just nightmarish situations locked in closets, beaten, sexual abuse. And so mine doesn't sound as bad, you know, but it was uh yeah, just horrible in its in its darkness and silence.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Yeah. I think that's subjective, isn't it, as well. Do you know when we talk about those childhood traumas, you know, what what is traumatic for one person isn't for another. But I think with your situation as well, I can't imagine growing up in a home where my parents don't talk to each other. I mean, my parents eventually split up when I was about 16. But, you know, I always felt like I came from a loving family in those informative and those important news. I felt like I had that stability in the home. My home was somewhere that I found to be a place where I wanted to be. It wasn't a place that I was trying to escape from.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

When you was, you know, at 13, when you first started throwing yourself headfirst into this substance misuse, you talked then about the reflection of, you know, numbing yourself. Was you aware that's what you were doing at the time? Or do you think it was, you know, you you're kind of doing it, but not necessarily knowing why you're doing it?

SPEAKER_05 7:10

That's a great question. Because at the time, I would say it was unconscious, but in retrospect, I knew that all I wanted to do was get out of my skin. I was so uncomfortable in my skin. And I wanted to fit in, you know, it was this was in the in the 70s, and I wanted to be one of those cool kids.

Numbing With Speed And Acid

SPEAKER_05 7:32

So there was that. But in retrospect, yeah, we we preloaded before we went to any parties or we went to any gatherings. There was a group of us, and we would we would buy a bottle of rum with three or four girls, and we would do shots until the bottle was empty and we were, you know, sort of falling over each other. And I was always the one that got sick and blacked out.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

But that's the that's that time, isn't it, as a teenager? That pushing the boundaries, pushing the limits. And I suppose like now as a 33-year-old adult, I know my limits. I didn't as a teenager. No, I didn't know what responsible drinking was, and you know, more, more, more was kind of my attitude as a teenager. And I'm sure that's the same for most.

SPEAKER_05 8:16

It's for for me as an addict and looking back. I mean, I I got I got into recovery just before my 30th birthday, and and I will talk about that in a minute. But I was I was clean and sober for 13 years and I relapsed. So I was into my 40s when I started drinking again in in 2000 for myriad reasons, which I'll get into in a bit. But even in my 40s, I didn't know my limits. So you're saying you grew into your limits? I didn't. I never had those limits, you know. I started out saying, oh, I can control this, I can control it, until I couldn't. And I was hiding it and I was thinking, oh, I'm okay. I'm okay. So it wasn't just because I was a teenager, it was because there was there was pain inside of me.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

One of the things that we haven't really delved into on this podcast series is hallucinic substances. You know, you said yourself, you know, it was anything that you could get your hands on, amphetamins, acid. Talk me through the first time that you experienced hallucinic drugs and what that was like for you.

SPEAKER_05 9:23

I took acid a lot. Um it was real popular at the time, though, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 9:28

I think when we watch things now that are set in the 70s, there's often some reference to acid in there.

SPEAKER_05 9:34

Yeah, yeah. And now, I mean, people are using psychedelics in a medicinal manner. So, microdose. Yeah, exactly. Wow, it was so prevalent, and mushrooms were very prevalent. And I mean, as I said earlier, I would take anything that anyone handed me because I thought not only, oh, this will be fun, but also get me out of here, meaning my own head. I remember the first time that I got really high on acid. It was, had I known what I know now, it would have been interesting retrospectively to say, huh, that was interesting how this happened. Because my very first time that I really remember it, I was at a party with, I don't know, there were probably 50 or 60 people in this house. And I sat in a corner and looked at this abalone ring that I had and watched a little man in a canoe go around and around in this thing for hours. And ha, you know, it's sort of like wow. Did I dance? No. Did I talk to people? No. But I was removed enough and I was able to remove, you know, that whole thing of I want to get out of my skin.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:50

So I didn't know it then, but it was great because it removed me. But it was also terrifying because you know, I'd be with other people and I was with a lot of people who had really bad trips, screaming, uh, thinking that things were chasing them. And yeah, it it there's absolutely out of control. That's that's what it was. Absolutely out of control. And at the time, that that was okay with me because I wanted to escape, and that means part of that escape is out of control.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

See, acid is interesting enough, it's one of the few things where people talk about where I think, I mean, having never taken a substance before, it's the one that if I had, I think that would be the one that I would have problems with. Because often it sounds really fun, it's almost like virtual reality. Do you know you say that little story with the guy going around the canoe and it's like I smiled then because that sounded nice, it sounded peaceful. But I think the other part that scares me is I know I would be the person that would have that really bad trip. Things are chasing me, the paranoia, the anxiety. And I think that is obviously for me the reason why I've never ever touched it, because that would be my experience. I know it would be, you know.

SPEAKER_05 12:06

Yeah, and and we weren't doing it in in healthy, safe backgrounds, you know. We were doing it wherever at this party, and anyway. And there was another time where, again, my I feel so sorry for the little one that I was. It was sort of like, give me anything, I'll take it, I'll do whatever.

Trauma, Curfews, And Being Unmissed

SPEAKER_05 12:24

I was sitting in a group with about 10 people, and a guy lit up a joint, and I we thought it was just pot, just marijuana, and and so I took a couple hits, came around again, took a couple hits, and I learned after that it was elephant tranquilizer. Wow. And and so, and what it did was it paralyzed us.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

I was gonna say, how would how would the body even react to something like that? If a tranquilizer is made for do you know an elephant? How is that?

SPEAKER_05 12:55

You know what that's what they called it is elephant tranquilizer? I don't know if it was. It was a tranquilizer, but then all of us, however many there was, were lying on the floor and couldn't move. And what's sad now, looking back, I wasn't scared. I was like, oh wow, this is happening. Okay. You know how tragic, how tragic that I had so little regard or care for myself that that didn't fucking terrify me. Yeah, you know, if I heard about my kids going through something like that, oh my God, it would it would horrify me, you know, and instead we're all laying on on the floor, unable to move until it wore off. I don't know how long it was, and then people started sort of moving little different parts of their body. And Jesus, you know, and that ties into this other piece with it, it was before my my mother died. I think I was 15 when I did that one. And I don't I don't even know what time it was, and I never worried about time because I knew my mother was passed out. And so for me, I mean, again, just the heartbreak of that the way I played it as the rebel was you know, I don't I don't have a curfew, I don't have to be home. So I did this whole rebel thing. But inside now, I was dying. It's like all I wanted was a parent to be home, saying, Are you okay, sweetheart? Please be home by midnight or 11 or whatever. You know, I'm worried about you. Instead, I came home rocked in whatever time it was, or ended up staying at someone else's house and wasn't missed.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Do you think, thinking about that now then, do you think you cared so little for yourself at that age because you felt as though no one else cared for you?

SPEAKER_05 14:54

I mean, that's a great insight. And I've I went through that in my own therapy. But absolutely, you know, it's sort of like I wanted to escape because of the pain, but also, you know, like fuck you. You don't care, fine. I don't care either.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

That's heartbreaking that. Again, we we spoke a little bit about, you know, my daughter before we started, and I I hope I I hope she never feels like that. I hope what you've experienced, I hope nobody ever feels like that. Because it's interesting that rebel character that I don't I don't have to be home, I don't have a care for you, because back then that would have been quite cool. Like other kids would have looked at you and thought, gosh, she's got it good, you know, no restrictions. That's the type of thing that people only get when they go to college, you know, university over here. You had that as a teenager, and it's funny to think that some of your peers might have looked at you almost envious that you had that freedom, when the reality is you was probably looking at them thinking, I kind of wish I had what you had. I wish I had a parent who was saying because obviously no cell phones or anything like that.

SPEAKER_05 15:51

No, nothing like that, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Even that's terrifying to think you just left the house. Do you know what I mean? Left the house, and it was like, I don't know where they are, I don't know what they're doing. I don't think I don't think as a parent I would have cut I'd I'd come up uh back then, you know, to think I don't know where they are, I don't know what they're doing. Because I mean, over here in in the UK, do you know myself and probably a lot of other people that have lived here, you know, we we went out when sort of the sun came up, and then our our cue to go home was when the streetlights came on, you know, and our parents didn't see us all day. And obviously you'd come home, and I imagine my mum and dad, you know, they were very caring people. I imagine that would have been a bit of a sigh of relief for them when we did come home. Yeah, yeah. We just obviously completely oblivious to the to the dangers of whatever that would have been back then.

SPEAKER_05 16:33

Just tied into that, that's a you know, you speak of your daughter. I've got two sons who are adults now, but that was the most important piece for me is that they would never, ever feel like they were not absolutely and completely loved. And that that was of the utmost importance because I do remember. And so one of the things that I am incredibly grateful for is that my sister and I, my sister's also in recovery, that my sister and I broke multi-generational traumas.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

I was gonna talk about that because it's interesting how I mean you could have really just repeated the cycle of what your mother did to you, and that's often what happens. I think breaking generational traumas are things that really feel like we're only kind of discussing in in the last, I don't know, 20 years or so, but you know, obviously it's something that must be happening. In in reflection, how much do you know about your mother and her own upbringing and what that was like for her? Do you know anything?

SPEAKER_05 17:33

Well, yeah, I mean, my her parents, my grandmother and grandfather were essential when we were growing up, and they were just that was that was a real safe place for us. My my mother's background is Italian. My grandmother was born in in San Francisco, but her parents were both immigrants from Italy. My grandfather was an immigrant from Italy, my father's side were Irish, so Irish and Italian, screwed up Catholic,

Alaska Fork In The Road

SPEAKER_05 18:04

apologies to anybody, and and alcohol on both sides. Although we didn't see a lot of alcohol in my grandparents, but my grandmother's mother was an alcoholic. I mean, she Christmases often would be her ending up drunk and crying in the bathroom. My mother and her sisters would always drink a lot at holidays. But my I don't, I don't remember my grandmother ever drinking. Mind you, she was very codependent and very anxious. But she was a big fat Italian grandmother who I just remember being cuddled by and loving it. And you know, I it as far as I know, there wasn't a lot of dysfunction in their family, but I don't know a lot of the intricacies that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Of course, yeah, because I I think obviously, like, you know, we all go for our own individual journeys, and and you know, trauma isn't always something that we're subjected to by our parents. You know, some people, and I mean people that we've spoken to previously on the podcast, experienced a sexual assault, and that is what triggered their drug and alcohol use. And you know, if they had children and that could affect them, so it's it's not always something that is brought onto us by our parents. But I found it interesting that you said your sister is also in recovery.

SPEAKER_05 19:28

Yeah. Oh, we can we but we've and you know, I'm grateful beyond measure. She was my mentor, she got sober before me. She's my older sister, she got clean and sober before me, so she was my role model, and I'm I am honestly grateful beyond measure. Um, but she took me to my first 12 step meeting, but I want to support her. Okay, yeah, yeah. There was nothing wrong with me. I was just I like it. Is that how she ponded you to get to it?

SPEAKER_00 19:52

It's like just come support me.

SPEAKER_05 19:53

Exactly, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

That was brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 19:56

But so we were aware of that display. Dysfunction and and you know, in terms of the family system, we are the only ones, both sides of the family, where there's addiction on both sides, and we're the only ones that got into recovery of all of our cousins and all of the people on both sides of the family, even though there was rampant addiction on both sides.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Why do you think that was then with you and your sister?

SPEAKER_05 20:21

Because our mother was the identified problem. Okay, you know, on both sides. You know, and our mother died of alcoholism when I was 16 and Karen was 20. So we were like, oh, poor, you know, poor Karen and Patty. Okay. And and, you know, at times it's like, oh God, you know, thank God we got into recovery. Because out of the family, we're we're the only ones talking about this stuff that was the silent, you know, the elephant in the room on both sides.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

But do you think it was like ignored by the family then for other people that were struggling?

SPEAKER_05 20:57

Absolutely. And our cousin, it's it's tragic. I mean, she was a meth addict. It was I don't know how much she's still using. I haven't seen her in quite a while, but her life's really, really still screwed up. This was my my mother's sister, and she she but she was again the identified problem. So my cousin was like, oh, you know, she's the problem. I wish she had gotten into recovery, but she didn't, and and tragic. So you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Where did it go from you then? We've talked obviously with those teenager user, and going back to your mum, I guess. Was that something that seeing your mother die of alcoholism? Was that a trigger for you at any point in terms of like, right? I don't want to be like her, I need to get well. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 21:40

God, it's like somebody fed you the question. Um but first of all, I just I just want to acknowledge a piece of that. My mother was brilliant, and she never should have been a mother. She was a good Italian Catholic woman, and she quit her life to have babies. She was, she spoke several languages, was a translator at the at the ports of San Francisco, graduated cum laude from UC Berkeley, and was brilliant. But she married an Italian, a uh Catholic Irish man, stayed home, had babies, and dragged herself to death, is what ultimately happened. My again, I'm trying to weave this in so it makes sense. But anyway, I when I finished university, I moved to Alaska. I was a bartender in Alaska and you know, kid in the kids.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:40

And this was in the 80s, and the 80s were a time of significant wealth in Alaska. It was the oil pipeline and fishing was huge. It was 1980. I had just graduated from Berkeley. My mother went to Berkeley, my sister went to Berkeley, I went to Berkeley. Moved there. I had heard that there were 10 men to every woman in Alaska, and I thought, well, hell, I love that. So I moved there. I became a bartender, and not only could I drink to my heart's content, but there was also so much cocaine, it was insane. So I would bartend a lot of the ways that I was tipped was lines in the back room. So I was just doing stupid amounts of cocaine and drinking. It was, I was on a terrifying path. But for the grace of whatever universe is out there, there was an absolute fork in the road. I I was doing substitute teaching during the day, some days of the week, and I was bartending at night.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

I just I just have to laugh at that. The idea of you teaching and then doing lines of cooking and getting completely off your personal and a lot of times not sleeping.

SPEAKER_05 24:03

And then and I was well, I was teaching at the alternative high school, so these were the you know the bad kids. So I'd walk in and and I'd be like, hey guys, you know, I'm one of you. Anyway, I'm a cautionary tale. A cautionary tale. Oh God. Anyway, so I was doing this relief to this uh substitute teaching, bartending, and then this all happened in one week, Matt. In one week. I got offered a full-time job at the at the alternative high school. A woman I worked with said that there was a a townhouse or a condo that was for sale next door to her. And in Alaska at the time, because there was so much money, you could get a loan from the bank interest-free for a number of years. And so I could buy this condo, interest-free loan, had a job, and all the cocaine I could ask for. And that same week, I got an aerogram. I don't know, you guys are too young maybe to remember aerograms, but anyway, they're folded up pieces of paper that you send internationally. And my boyfriend

Choosing Recovery Before Thirty

SPEAKER_05 25:12

then, my husband now, he's stuck it through. Thank you, Jeff, sent me an aerogram and said, let's travel. And he was in Australia at the time, and he said, Let's travel in Southeast Asia. I'll meet you in Bali. So I had this piece of paper inviting me to Bali and just drop it all, or an interest-free loan for a condo, a job, and you know, a lifestyle. And I got that all in one week. And I sat on a log next to the water in Juneau, Alaska, and sobbed and just said, Oh my God, what the hell am I gonna do? Oh my god, oh my god, sobbing, sobbing. And I kid you not, again, I told you I do have a tendency toward hyperbole, but this is a true story. It felt like someone was standing behind me and saying, if you stay here, you will die. And it was, I I literally turned around because the voice was so loud. And, you know, I I've, you know, whatever you want to call it in some circles, you know, it's higher power moment or a yeah, a kick from the old maybe older you that had passed away, time traveled back to the stood behind you and said, do that one.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Exactly. This one will kill you. I love it.

SPEAKER_05 26:33

Oh, I love it. I like that one. I'm gonna add that to my story, but I'll give the credit for it.

unknown 26:37

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 26:38

So I gave notice, I didn't take the condo, I quit the job at that red dog saloon, and I met up with Jeff and Bolly. And we ended up going to Japan. We taught in Japan, where I continued to drink. I had sort of this rule that if my students were pouring Masaki and I'm not pouring it, you don't count because, you know, I think that's fair. You know, I'm not I'm not pouring it, though. Just don't want to waste it. And Jeff and I finally had a huge fight about it. And I thought, okay, this is a problem. Now, this was all going back to the question of was there anything about my mother and my own kids? So I have to walk in the coast, but I'm getting there. And so we ended up traveling for four years in Southeast Asia and Asia, and we went back to America, and Jeff was getting his master's degree, I know it was his BA degree at that point. And I went to, I mean, this sounds so corny, but again, it's true. I went to an astrologist psychic, and she read my chart, and she talked about a couple of things, and she pointed at the chart and she said, Patty, I'm looking at this area of your chart, and it looks like there's some problems with alcohol. And I said, Yeah, my mother died of alcoholism when I was 16. She said, Okay, that explains this. But there's this part right here, you know. I I I still see I said, Well, yeah, my dad's still a practicing alcoholic, but he looks good. He wears a tie. Okay, okay, that makes sense. But there's still this part here. And I said, Oh, well, my sister is also an alcoholic, but she's in recovery. Ah, that's great. Congratulations, Patty. Are you an alcoholic? Just like that. And I went, oh my God, and just burst out crying, ran out the door. Actually, I probably walked, that's the hyperbole, and and left, and just was so shaken. And the next day I went to my first 12-step meeting. Wow. And that was two days before my 30th birthday. I had given myself that as my 30th birthday present. And back to that original question. Jeff and I were talking about having kids. I was 30, my body was saying, time for a baby. And I swore I would not be my mother. So I got clean and sober two days before my 30th birthday in 1988. And I did it because I didn't want to be my mother. I did it so that I could hang on to Jeff because I didn't want to lose my partner. And we had already had several of those. You know, we can talk about codependency too, but put that on the on the back burner. And I and I had done a lot of therapy by then anyway, and I knew the patterns. My sister was already in recovery, had already been to a meeting to support her, as I told you. And so I walked into my first 12-step meeting. It was all women. It was in Tucson, Arizona, mostly youngish women in their 30s, and I just felt loved.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

And I thought, oh my God, I'm home. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_05 29:52

And I'm grateful beyond measure that that was my first meeting because I was so held. I was so held. And I I didn't drink for almost 13 years. However.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

So I

The Power Of Women’s Rooms

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Did you did you feel though that obviously talking about the dependency to the substance? Yes, it sounds like you're drinking a lot, but did you feel as though you were dependent on alcohol? Because I mean, as well as alcohol, you've talked about using a myriad of drugs. Getting sober from one substance can be quite difficult. And sometimes it's almost like a like a little game of guess who? You've got to knock them off one by one. Or did you just go boom and be done with everything at that point?

SPEAKER_05 30:35

The when I left, when I had the the the future me come up behind me. Remember, I'm gonna use that story, come up behind me and say that. And I went overseas, I quit using drugs.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Okay. Completely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:50

Because, you know, I was in countries where they'd kill you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Flew into Singapore.

SPEAKER_05 30:56

So just didn't didn't use other drugs. Well, I did take um, I did have magic mushroom omelets in Bali, but wow.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

Yeah. So egg and magic mushroom.

unknown 31:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 31:09

It was on the menu, so I figured, you know, if it's on the menu, then it's okay. Can't be too bad. It can't be too bad. And so I I quit using drugs for the most part, and then didn't drink nearly as much because Jeff isn't a drinker, which is amazing. Like, how did he end up with me? So it was mostly just alcohol. But was there dependence? There absolutely was. However, again, pure pure luck. I didn't have DTs, I didn't go through withdrawals like that. I've known a lot of people who have. But I had removed myself enough that that it I don't know how. I I didn't go through that.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

I think dependency as well, it's an interesting thing because sometimes when we say dependency, people instantly think of the physical dependency, the you know the shakes, the tremors, and exactly. And I think if there's this element of that, oh, I can only go to this party if I have a drink, if I I can only do this if I have a drink. Exactly. For me, that in itself, that is dependency. Yeah, it might not be a physical dependency, but it's definitely dependency. And I think it still could justify going down the route of fellowship means.

SPEAKER_05 32:20

Yep, yep. And I think a really important piece there is that I left. So, and you know, there's a there's a real thing about, you know, pulling a geographic that people, you know, no matter, you know, wherever you go, there you are. However, because of the fact that I left Alaska and I went to Asia and I completely changed everything, it shifted that. If I had stayed in Juneau, I could I couldn't have. I couldn't have, because my entire culture there was a was uh circled around drugs and alcohol, and those were all my friends, etc. So the fact that I did leave was huge. And then when I left, Jeff and I had been living in Oregon when I got that reading, and we left for Tucson, Arizona the next day, and I went to the meeting again. So even though it's not popular to say I believe there are effects.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Yeah, I I think that because sometimes, I mean, yes, I think deep down we know that the individual self is the problem. But I think you can remove yourself from environments where triggers are, and I think culture, you know, that there's that I suppose in the culture that you're in, when I say culture, it can be your friends, it can be your family, it can be just your general day-to-day routine, which is all part of of how you're living. They can all be triggers to that substance misuse. And I think there is something in there where it can be healthy to remove yourself from one place and go to another. I think where it becomes an issue is if you find yourself pulling a geographic and you go from one place to another, oh, the problems are there again.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

To another, same problems. Then you've got to start looking, okay. It's not the environment. I can't keep blaming, you know, people and places, and I have to start looking inwards.

SPEAKER_05 34:10

Right, right. And I was doing a bit of both. I was doing some therapy, etc. Not as much as once I got clean and sober, but that made a big difference for me. It really did. And so because of all that, I was very ready. And I had had the the, you know, seeing my sister just start to shine when she got clean and sober. So that all made a difference. But then after being in in Tucson for about four years, Jeff and I moved to New Zealand in 1992.

Moving, Losing Connection, Slipping

SPEAKER_05 34:44

And I didn't have the same level of community. And one of my very, very favorite quotes, which you've probably heard several times, is from an author and speaker named Johan Hari that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. And that having that connection that I had with those women and those people, it just held me. And suddenly, when we moved to New Zealand, I had nothing. I didn't know anyone. I was really left floundering. And I looked for a 12-step meeting, but I we lived in this small town of 7,000 people, and I'm not blaming anyone, and I'm I take full responsibility, however, comma, aside from that, with all that said, the meetings that I went to were mostly old men.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:51

And I walked into the 12-step meeting, I didn't know anybody, I was scared, I was sad, I had left my support group, and I cried a lot. I'm an emotional human being, and I was told to shut up and listen.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_05 36:07

And I was told, you've got two ears and one mouth, you know, listen twice as much as talking. Shut your mouth and listen.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

I've had that before. Yeah, ears open, mouth shut. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:20

Exactly. And you know, you've and each time I would say, but I'm struggling. And they say, Don't pick up a drink, come to a meeting, you'll be fine. But I'm not fine. And eventually I didn't have that connection, like Johan Hari was talking about. I didn't have the connection. And so I stopped going to meetings. And I had my kids, you know, I was I was clean and sober for five years before I had my son. And then I had my first son when I was 35, my second son when I was 38. I was clean and sober, strong, healthy. And then they went to school. And suddenly, this raison d'être that I had with my kids, they've gone to school, and I just was left feeling, you know, floundering, rudderless, like, what am I doing? New community, relatively new community, no real support system. You know, some support system. I met some beautiful friends there. I don't want to say I didn't have that, but not in recovery. And so once the kids went to school, yeah, the mothers, we lived on the we lived on the coast near the beach, and the mothers at the school would all get together after school and sit on decks and have beautiful New Zealand wine and sit out in the sun while the kids played. And I had lost my connection in recovery. And I said to myself, I've got this. I haven't, you know, I haven't been drinking for almost 13 years. I'm good. I'm good. I've got this. I can have a glass of wine. I am fine. I am fine.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

And that's the convincing of yourself, isn't it? You know, you they often say the the relapse before the relapse. And I think that is the point there where you're saying it's been 30 news, I'm fine. That's already the relapse, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 38:22

Right there. Absolutely. That's it. Exactly, man.

The Motherhood Void And Wine Culture

SPEAKER_05 38:25

And so I I said, you know, I I'm absolutely fine. And I was until I wasn't. And so I would go to, you know, after school, have a glass of wine, the kids were playing. It was, you know, this just lovely scene with all the kids playing in the sun and blah, blah, blah. And the mothers were all the yummy mummies. And we did that. And it was fine until it wasn't. And then what I saw was I would start having an extra drink. And then I'd start making deals with myself. I will only have two glasses of wine after school. I will only have three beers at the pizza party. I will only have. And then I started enrolling my husband. Okay, we're going to this party. Make sure I only have, you know, codependence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

What was his response to you drinking after 13 years of sobriety? Was he worried or did he also think he was in control of that?

SPEAKER_05 39:25

I'm really good at acting. God, I was good, you know? And I was good at hiding bottles in recycling, and I was good at keeping it together. And Jeff thought, you know, okay. If you think you've got it, great. And I enrolled him. You know, I mean, oh my God, it's so fucking sick in retrospect. And anybody that's listening, really just pay attention to the codependence that's in a system because there always is. And so I knew exactly how to deal with it. Instead of me trying to hide it, I'd enrolled Jeff. Okay, we're gonna go to this party, and I'm only gonna have two glasses. Of wine. So make sure, you know, so now he's in on it. And you know, it was all part of the plan. And then I go in the kitchen and sneak that third glass, but make it look like it was still not filmed up. Just still, that's you know, oh my god. And just that the lengths I would go to to keep the, you know, that whole mirage there.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Was you aware at the time you were doing it? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. So it's not like a post-reflection thing. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:24

I had been sober almost 13 years. Yeah. See, I mean, sobriety ruins it, you know. You you know too much.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:31

So I'm telling myself, well, I can still do this because I can still read recovery material and I can still say the third step prayer in the morning, and I can still do this and this, and I can still journal, right? I was always journaled. And I'm fine.

unknown 40:47

I've got it. I've got it.

SPEAKER_05 40:49

And then I'd hide a bottle in recycling and just sort of think, okay, that's a red flag, but it's okay. And then I just started seeing myself doing things that I swore I would never do. You know, it's one of those things I will never do that. And then it's done. It's like, okay, I haven't done that one yet. And then just a few things. You know, I drove drunk with my kids in the car once. Um, that's one of the things I regret most. Thank you, universe. No one was hurt. I didn't get busted. I didn't crash, but I was aware of it. I was aware of it. And I thought, that's a line. That's a line, Patty. That is a line too far. I still didn't stop, but I quit driving.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Um again, it's making those, as you said, almost those deals, isn't it? Exactly. I can still continue as long as I don't drive.

SPEAKER_05 41:37

Exactly. I can still continue as long as I don't make a fool of myself in public. So I would, you know, wait until I knew I wasn't gonna have to drive and I can drink at home and I wouldn't embarrass myself. You know, that when you're out of it looking back in, it's like, oh my God. Really? You know? I I and and you said, were you aware of it? Hell yeah, I was. Before I got into recovery and before I did therapy, not as much. I just wanted to numb out. After the fact, oh, I knew what I was doing, and I was like, yeah, but yeah, but I'm okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Yeah, but yeah, but did drugs ever creep back in? Oh, was they the alcohol like that?

SPEAKER_05 42:20

It was it was only the alcohol at that point because the drugs scared me enough, you know. Thank God I didn't love, or I not only didn't love, thank God I was terrified of needles because I didn't know a lot of people that were shooting up at the time. And so I smoked heroin a couple of times because it was available and it sounded like, oh, this is fun, but thank God I didn't touch it. But there was uh because of needles, but there was enough of me with consciousness that said, ooh, that's really scary.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

And then once the kids were there, of course, yeah, it changes everything, doesn't it? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, like for me, I'm I mean I've never been a a big drinker early, you know, but late teens, early twenties, I probably went pretty hard. But I think since having my daughter, that was when I really like now. I think I'll maybe have one pint and then that's me done. Yeah, because it's a taste thing, and like for me, you know, one thing I spoke about, and this is exploring non-alcoholic beers, but children do change everything. I think as well, looking at your story, and correct me if I'm wrong, but 70s and 80s, really

Red Flags, Deals, And Denial

SPEAKER_00 43:24

big sort of drug culture in the media as well. Do you know it was almost like you know, I talk about reflections of looking at things set in the 70s and 80s? They really do push like the cannabis and getting high as part of the forefront of to almost establish that's the time period in which that scene is set in, but then there's also the element of well, you're naturally getting older as well, and our attitudes towards substances can change as well. Yeah, was that part of your story in terms of like the the media influences and all the the culture of it, or was it a case of just outgrowing?

SPEAKER_05 43:56

Both, both. I mean, there was a real glamour to it.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, glamour's the word that I use.

SPEAKER_05 44:02

Yeah, it was just it was so cool and sort of edgy, and and you know, I I I thought of myself as a hippie, and it was so cool, and you know, that you know, weed is cool and acid's cool and yada yada. But then in the 80s, it became really cool to be in recovery. Oh so that was like sort of the shining time of recovery. So that was alluring as well. But to be honest, I saw, I saw what drugs were doing, and were you know, people in my high school, so many have died. Yeah, and so many have just gone down terrifying roads. And so I saw I saw what was going on. And as I said, unbelievably, you know, my my husband never, you know, never used drugs and alcohol much. So I didn't have a someone to play with anymore, you know, or on that level. And my sister got sober, and so she wasn't there, although she relapsed first, so I blame her. I relapsed after her. And then, but again, with the kids, you know, I was doing it to fit in with the mother's thing, but then I saw what was happening too, and I just sort of thought, no, this isn't a where did it go from there then?

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Because you said the yummy mummy's drinking the wine. You mentioned, you know, drinking and driving with your children, the car. Again, we we explore the rock bottom moment in in this podcast, and and not everyone does have a rock bottom moment, but you're heading to a direction now where, as we know, you eventually got sober. Where did it go and what changed for you to achieve sobriety again? That second step.

SPEAKER_05 45:38

Yeah, that's that's a good question. The first time I really did hit a rock bottom with that me that came back from the future, that the second time it was, you know, high bottom, as they say. Because interestingly, I was writing my first book. I was running in New Zealand, I started a charitable trust for teenagers. And then after I had been running this workshop for teenagers called Teen Esteam, a lot of the mothers came and said, We really like what you're doing with these teenagers. We want you to do with us. So a friend and I started a second charitable trust to run workshops with mothers, and then just women in general. So it became a workshop for women. And a lot of the women said when the workshop was over, we want something else. You know, can you make a workbook or something? And that's what started me writing my first book, which was called This Way Up. And it was a narrative, a story about a woman who's going through this sort of emptiness, and she's she's drinking and then stops drinking and has this whole awakening. And then the second half of the book is journaling workbook. And that was the nod toward the women in the workshop. That's what got me to write that. And it was also exploring what I was going through, that feeling of emptiness when my kids went to school. Like, what's my role now? What should I be doing? I feel, I feel empty, I feel lost. I put my whole self into being a good mother, you know, to break that multi-generational pattern.

Purpose, Writing, And Hypocrisy Shock

SPEAKER_05 47:12

And they're doing great. And both of my boys are flying now. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

It sounds like at the time you you almost lacked a purpose when you when you relapse for the first time. I think, you know, once your children went off to school, trying to fill those days with no purpose. Exactly. And purpose is so important.

SPEAKER_05 47:29

Hugely important, hugely. And that that need for purpose and that need to be, you know, my kids are flying now. I mean, I'm so proud of both of them. And anybody could say, wow, you know, you you did great at mothering. And I then I know I have. I really do. And okay, that's great. And I know I did that well, and yet there's there's more, you know, there's more. And that search for purpose. And that was part of that workshop. So a lot of the book is around that search for purpose, that feeling of, you know, what am I what am I looking for here? So getting back to getting sober the second time. I was writing that book when I was still drinking. Okay, yeah, and in the book, it starts out that the protagonist gets in a car accident because she was drunk. And then she goes through this whole process of reawakening. And I'm about to publish my book, and I thought, you fucking hypocrite. Good God. What? And so that was a real awakening moment. And so I said, You cannot do this. You cannot go out in front of people and and talk about this book and then sit down and have a glass of wine, you know. Really, it just felt beyond hypocritical. And so my my book was published in 2016, and I got sober the second time in 2014. And I got sober at first alone. I just quit drinking, but I missed that community, that, you know, that the opposite of addiction is it's sobriety. And I was sobri I was sober for several months, and then another one of these higher power moments. I was in a coffee shop in this small town that I was talking about in um in Thames in New Zealand, and this guy walked in the coffee shop that I recognized from the meetings. And he walked in with this beautiful woman with this flowing, crazy gray hair on this flowing skirt. And I thought, wow, that's what I need. And he sat down and I walked over and I said, You know, hi, do you remember me? And he said, Oh, yeah, I do remember you. It's been a long time. How have you been? I said, Well, I'm doing well now, but it's been a while. And he said, you know, he asked me a couple of questions. I said, you know, it's really great to see you, but I want to talk to her. And I introduced myself and I said, Are you sober too? And she said, I sure am. And I said, I really want a woman's meeting. Do you know of one? And she said, Nope, but let's start one. Wow. And that was, you know, another one of those moments. And so her name's Rosie. And Rosie and I started a meeting in Thames in 2014. And that's

Rebuilding Through Women‑Centred Meetings

SPEAKER_05 50:12

what eventually got me to write my second book, which this is for you. Oh, oh, thank you. Um, that moment called Recovery Road Trip. And it's a story about a woman, again, that search for self, and that she is now sober, but but still feeling like she's lacking something. Because my second time in sobriety, I didn't have the same level of pink cloud. I had gone through that. And I was grateful beyond measure that I was sober again, but I I needed more.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:48

And so that's something that Rosie and I explored together. And we began a meeting in Thames where we said, this is not just AA, this is not just NA. We want you to come to a meeting and talk about whatever fucking addiction is up for you because addiction is addiction, is addiction. So if you are feeling like you're trying to fill up that empty hole with food, come on in and talk about it. If you are doing it with porn, come on in and talk about it. If you're doing it with drugs or alcohol or any substance, come and talk about it because addiction is addiction, is addiction. And we are not going to tell you that you can only talk about alcohol here. And if you're worried about your never wanted, then go there and it's. That sometimes happens, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 51:39

It's like you're in the wrong place. I know people with alcohol problems actually prefer the environment of CA because they feel they're amongst more like-minded people. And I just think, as you've said, addiction is addiction is addiction. Yeah. I know I've never been into these rooms, but surely the similarities of it just must cross, and a group where we can just discuss everything. That makes more sense to me because I often think I'm I'm the volunteer lead for our service, and one of one of the staff members that likes our service now, he talks about his big breakthrough came from being in a room and it was called the day rehab room. And it was something that they did at the end of the trim, it was an abstinence-based group as at the renew service. And he said the kind of the where the penny really dropped for him was he was good in this group, he was sober, but he wasn't being honest about all the other things that you know surround his life. And it wasn't until someone challenged him and said, You're full of shit, and he was like, I'm not full of shit. And in the end, he said he left that meeting really angry, and he went home. And as he's on the bus home, he's thinking, But I'm angry, but he's right, I wasn't being honest. But that breakthrough came from somebody with a drug addiction problem. He was alcohol, and I have said this: there's nothing wrong with mixing those groups because I think there's an integrity and an honesty that can transcend the substance, and it's about the reason behind the substance misuse. And I wonder, had he maybe not had that interaction that day with that guy, where would his life have gone? Because I know from his journey that was such a pivotal moment. Yeah, and I think getting these rooms to mix and to talk about the the almost like the root cause of the addiction, of the void, doesn't matter what what the what it is, it's what are you what you escaping from is maybe the way I would look at it.

SPEAKER_05 53:30

Absolutely. And you know, I mean I love what Gabor Mate says, you know, that whatever your addiction is, it served the purpose. Yeah, you were looking to end the pain, to end whatever was happening for you due to that trauma. And so it did the job until it doesn't. And it doesn't matter which one it is. You know, that's that's the hard part with 12-step programs, is the ones that are very pedantic that do say, this is for alcohol, this is for drugs, this is for shopping, this is for porn, you know. When we're all trying to deal with that darkness that we tried to deal with, that we've tried to numb out, that we tried to escape from. And so

Addiction Is Addiction: Broadening The Room

SPEAKER_05 54:20

that's what we just like you said, Matt, we've got to find the root of that first. And and the other thing that that was really hard for me in in sort of traditional 12-step meetings, and I talk about that in my book in Recovery Road Trip, that I, you know, I I really pushed back, even though I'm I'm still in 12-step recovery, I really pushed back against 12-step, and I've gotten some flack about it, because I talk about it in the book, because I I don't believe in pedantic big book thumping. I think that is a mistake, and I think that drives people away, especially a lot of women who have worked more with women because of the sort of patriarchal nature of it. But I digress. It's so important to find that root, and when you get into those real pedantic meetings, they say all you need to do is not pick up a drink or a drug and come to meetings. And I don't believe that's true. Because we have to deal with, as you said, with the root of it. And the only way that I know that one can deal with the root of it is getting some kind of therapy, doing something where you are unearthing it. Because you may just, you know, sit in a room, hold on tight to the table, and work your way through it, but you're not getting to the root of it.

SPEAKER_00 55:46

You know, and I think you really do have to explore that that root of it, because the the idea of people in addiction being lazy or lack of intelligence, you know, and and and that's why they're using substances. And we spoke about it earlier, that almost that waste of space identity that people are, you know, having thrust upon them because of their substance misuse. When I think, you know, talking to yourself, talking to so many people on this podcast, I start to question that and and think it's less laziness, it's less, you know what, it's less trying to escape, and I think it's more trying to maybe fill, you know, we talked about filling the void, but I think there's a trying to find a deeper meaning because maybe you just feel like you've got I don't know how to explain it, but an intelligence that isn't really hitting the surface yet, you know, things that haven't been explored. I just don't think it is about laziness, I think it's about a lack of meaning and trying to find meaning and the exploration that can come with substance misuse can make people feel numb to that need of a lack of meaning. That's it. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 57:00

Oh, it makes perfect sense. I I totally agree. It's and if you look at addicts of any any way, shape, or form, they are not lazy. No, no, there's a lot of work that goes into this.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

Do you know funny enough? We we said that before, we talked about transferable skills, and it was this idea that is like, do you know to be a drug dealer? Well, you've got to be good at accounting, you've got to be good at understanding support. And it's like taking all these transferable skills from there, you'd be able to walk into quite a lot of jobs based on the experiences that you had. The idea of keeping contact, who owes money to who, yeah, having all that understanding. If you if you channel it into somewhere maybe more productive, there is there is a skill set in being a drug in being a drug user, isn't there? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 57:43

Yeah, completely. So, no, it's not, it's not you know that that whole idea of lazy and waste of space. I mean, I I really push back against that. But you know, everybody has to find what works for them. You know, I I push back on 12-step in the book, but I'm in 12-step. Yes, because I really love that community feel. I I'm very much drawn to the spiritual element. Um, even though I'm, you know, a recovering Catholic, I I very much am drawn to that that higher power inner piece. But I loved the book, Quit Like a Woman. And she's very anti-12 step, but she talks very specifically about being a

Roots Of Harm: Trauma And Meaning

SPEAKER_05 58:28

woman and addiction, and especially how, you know, with alcohol, especially, how you know, the whole alcohol industry has just duped us, you know. I I have just a real passion for that, that they the alcohol industry knows exactly what alcohol does to our body, and especially to women's bodies. Well, it does a lot to men's bodies too, but that's my story.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

It's linked to breast cancers and so many, so many cancers, isn't it? Alcohol is related.

SPEAKER_05 58:59

Yeah, and it's I mean, directly related. That the the studies are you know conclusive, and yet, like in the past with tobacco, they keep pushing it. You know, now it's illegal to push tobacco, you know, that you have to have the ads that connect it and they only sell it at certain places and it's for certain ages, and they can't be on the ads, can't be on TV, etc. But alcohol is still, you know, used to promote sports teams and used to promote, you know, certain uh gatherings.

SPEAKER_00 59:32

It's such a profitable market, isn't it? But I I do often wonder, you know, in the same way that I mean, there's a a place where in Hull where I'm from, where I vividly remember there was a giant billboard for Lambert and Butler cigarettes, and it was there for God knows how long, but it was always there, and you you would never see that now. And as you said, you know, tobacco products can't be advertised in the way that they used to. And I often think about that with alcohol, you know. Will we see in maybe 10, 20 years from now that alcohol, yes, it's it's insane. Society, it's legal, but it's no longer allowed to be advertised in the way that it used to be. Is that somewhere where we'll go eventually?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:06

I think we will. I really do, because they're starting. I lived in New Zealand for over 30 years. I I now live in Portugal because my kids both came to Europe. So I flew in from Portugal this morning. But in New Zealand, it they had there was it was a requirement to put a notice on alcohol about pregnancy and alcohol. So they're they're moving toward that. And I think that more and more there's a growing awareness of that tie with alcohol and cancer. I mean, alcohol is toxic. Yeah. It is toxic to our system. You know, it it makes you sick. And yet it is just seen, you know, the advertisements, it's it's just seen as glamorous and fun. And you go on any social media, and there's, you know, mommy needs vodka and the mother's wine group, and our book group reads wine labels, and there's all kinds of, you know, fun little memes around especially women.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

I think even I mean we did we discussed it in an episode not so long ago, but even drinks like the pink gin and things like that, it's really and you know, and and prosecco with the the way it's really catered to the female market. Absolutely, you know. Happy hour for mums after school, that's on near my local pub. And I think it's like do you know two for one on cocktails from 5 till 7 pm or something like that? You know, it's interesting how it how it is really still pushed to that to that level. Yep. For you now then, you know, you created this second women's group in in New Zealand. What is your recovery community like now in Portugal? And do you miss your old recovery community?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:57

Well, my recovery community, I mean, I miss connection with with people one-on-one, like my my dear friend who's in recovery road trips,

Alcohol Marketing And Women’s Health

SPEAKER_05 1:02:05

her voice was with me the whole trip, Rosie and Rosie and I are still in close contact. But it's on Zoom. So I uh I can still go to my wonders of modern technology.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:17

And and you know, tied into that modern technology. When I moved to Portugal, I messaged someone on Facebook in a private message about, you know, does anyone know about any 12-step meetings near where I'm living, near Porto? And it was a man that answered and said, I know a woman because in 12-step they try and keep the gender separate because there's a lot of merging of addicts. So they try and keep it separate, at least at first.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

Because isn't that a rule as well in addiction? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Is that in general or just with anybody else in a fellowship? It's in general, is it?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:57

It's in general, yeah. Just because you're your your mind's still clearing and it's sort of like don't put your dependence on their drug or alcohol on this person. Don't make that person your new higher power.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

How does that work for someone like yourself who? I mean, you you've hinted at being in previous codependent relationships, but having a husband and then going into those environments, what was the sort of general feel for that? Or the feedback.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:18

Well, Jeff and I had to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

They're not going to say leave your husband and focus on recovery, of course.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:22

Jeff and I, Jeff and I had been together for a lot of years before I got sober. And we did a lot of therapy. Okay. That's that's the truth, you know, in terms of that that history. We did a lot of therapy and we got through some very bumpy patches. And yeah, that that's a whole other piece. But I was, oh, the technology. I wrote to somebody when I got to Portugal on Facebook, got a direct message. He told me about a woman who lived about a half an hour north of me. I contacted her. I said, her name is Vonda. And I said, Vonda, you know, I'm looking for a meeting, blah, blah, blah. And she said, let's start one. So again, I I truly believe in in coincidence and synchronicity.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:03

I like this idea that you just go to all these different places across the world, start off like female-only fellowship groups, and then leave and go to another one. It's just jumping from place to place. That's what it sounds like. And it's not a bad thing, is it?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:15

No, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:17

Yeah, you're leaving places in it in a in a better way than where you found them almost. Thank you. Thank you. I like to think of it that way.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:24

But but yeah, so my friend Vonda and I started a meeting and and that's started growing. I've been in in this area in Portugal for about a year and a half, and there's a couple of meetings that have started that we sort of instigated, and uh, and that's really cool. And yeah, it's uh I needed that community and I needed to feel like okay, I can I can plant I can plant some seeds here. I mean, and I did the same thing with a book group. I reached out on social media and I said, you know, I'm here. Is there a book group? I met a woman online and she said no, but let's start one. And so we started a book group.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:03

So that's how it works for you. Yeah. I like it. I like it. So someone who now has done, you know, multiple books. I suppose looking back at it, and we we talked a lot about different areas of it, but I suppose what do you think the main cause of someone with addiction is? That's a huge question, yeah. I just feel it. If someone with such experience in all these different areas and has spoken to someone, is there a commonality that you often see with people? I mean, we spoke earlier a little bit about that childhood trauma and that neglect, but I suppose is there is there a common pattern that you see where you go, that's where it is. I see that now. And almost where you can pinpoint the start of their stories.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:46

Well, I won't pick that up because I'm not an expert, and that's the truth. Yeah. However, in my experience with people I've spoken to within meetings and in Zoom, I would say it's tied into what Gabor Monte said. It's tied to trauma. And so, whatever that looks like, yeah, because trauma for me can look very different than trauma for you. Absolutely. And I used to downplay my trauma, as I said, because I wasn't beaten and I wasn't sexually abused, and and I I lived in a family that had enough money and yada yada. But that's my experience. I would agree with Gabor Mate, and I'm sure that you know it's like, well, I hope so. But that that's my experience. And

Finding People, Not Just Program

SPEAKER_05 1:06:30

when I was writing Recovery Road Tri, it was during COVID. And so I was going to a lot of meetings online, and I ended up talking to a lot of women who relapsed. That was one of the things that really became a springboard for Recovery Road Trip. And my question was, why did you relapse? Yeah. And invariably, so I'm not an expert and I don't know the answer to your question. I could just say past, but that's just not my style. Of course, I'm an expert.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:00

I think it's all opinion for me, anyways. Like you said, in the same way of you know, of trauma being subjective, I think so many people have a different opinion on what this is. But I think as someone who has traveled the world in the way that you had, I often wondered if there was like maybe a set thing where you thought that's where it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:16

Well, with that, when I spoke to the when I spoke to the women, and I spoke to a lot of women after after, like if somebody talked about relapse on the on the Zoom meeting, I would ask if I could talk to her afterwards, and I connected with a lot of women. And a group would say it was sexual abuse, another group would say it was addiction in the family, another group would say growing up in extreme poverty. So I I won't name it, but I can name poverty and filling up that hole. It's it's that empty hole that you want to fill up so you feel like you are whole. There's H O L E and W H O L E. And then the relapse, there was a real commonality with women of women not feeling seen in 12-step. Women that were in a 12-step meeting and feeling like the the patriarchalness of it, the pedantic big book thumping, the less than. So there was a lot of that, and that's why a lot of women relapsed. And then the reason so many women went back that I kept hearing from women. I mean, even though Recovery Road Trip is about a protagonist who goes through on this road trip, search for self, and a lot of it is me, but a lot of it, the majority of it is stories from other women that I've interspersed into Meg's journey. And it was that feeling of I wasn't comfortable in there, but I missed the community. I missed that connection, I miss that feeling of oneness. So the answer that came up again and again is there's a lot of meetings that suck. Find one that doesn't suck.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:08

Yeah, and that's a really good bit of advice because I think so many people go to a fellowship meeting of some kind of think, right? Well, that didn't work for me. And the reality is we maybe you're just in the wrong room. Yeah, exactly. You know, I think you talked earlier about naturally the connection and founding people. You said one of your one of your first meetings, you was like, I found my people. I think there's something in that, you know, find your people.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:31

They might not be in that room, but they may be in another room. Maybe you've got to drive out of town for 40 minutes to an hour or something. Do you know what I mean? To the next meeting. Yeah. Try different meetings. Don't just try the one and think this isn't it. Yeah. Find your people.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:43

And and you don't necessarily have to find a 12-step. Exactly. You know, because a lot of people don't like 12-step. There is a real Christian element, and that's a big turnoff for a lot of people. And if you can't get past that, it's going to turn you off. But there's a lot of other alternatives. There's a lot of different levels of recovery where you can find that group, where you can find your people. You know, there's so many. There's so many. You all you have to do is look online, and there's a lot of alternatives. So if I could just say to anyone listening, if 12-step isn't for you, if you haven't found your people in a 12-step room, keep looking. There are so many different groups of recovery that is not, you know, aligned with necessarily 12-step, that isn't necessarily aligned with the spirituality. If that doesn't work for you, that that isn't, you know, according to a book that was written in the 30s that was aimed at men. Yeah. That really a lot of women struggle with. That there are still so many meetings where you can find your people.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

Absolutely. Patty, thank you so much for joining me on Believe People. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before I wrap this up with my 10 questions?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:59

Um,

Closing Reflections And Quickfire

SPEAKER_05 1:11:00

I think we've covered it. I mean, I I feel like you've you really you you do this so well. You you pick up on things and and lead me down a path. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:10

Well, I'm sure to be fair, with your knowledge, I'm sure we could talk all day. I feel like we've just come to a nice natural conclusion in this conversation, though. So my first question for you is what is your favorite word? My favorite word, enthusiastic. Least favorite word. Boring. What sound or noise do you love? The sound of the ocean. Sound or noise do you hear?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:30

Of screeching women at children.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:37

Tell me something that excites you.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:40

Being with my grand my sons, and especially my grandson Theodore. Tell me something that doesn't excite you. Being with people who aren't curious.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

What job would you like to do? If you could do anything else in the world, what would it be?

SPEAKER_05 1:11:57

Oh, I I love doing this. I know it sounds hokey, but you know, I love writing and then I love sitting and talking to people about what fills me up. So this, man, I could do this all day. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

Thank you. What is the least thing you'd like to do? Worst job imaginable for you personally?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:14

Repetitive, factory repeating thing over and over.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:19

Favorite swear word. Fuck. And lastly, what's like to God say it when you arrive at the Pelegates?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:28

You inspired a lot of people. That's lovely. Patty, thank you so much for joining me on Believe in People. Thank you so much, Matt.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:34

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