Finley Worthington: Ketamine, Bladder Damage & Blood Jelly - Addiction and Education Reform

Finley joins Believe in People to share his lived experience of ketamine addiction and recovery, and how a substance that first felt functional and harmless became physically and psychologically destructive.

We explore how early use of cannabis and cocaine progressed into ketamine, why it can feel controlled at first, and how denial allows harm to escalate unnoticed. Finley explains ketamine bladder in clear, practical terms, the impact on family and identity, and the turning point that forced change.

This is a grounded conversation about stigma, youth culture and what real recovery requires beyond detox.

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Transcript

Welcome And Episode Focus

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is a renewed original recording. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award nominated and British Podcast Award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery, and stigma. My name is Matthew Butler, and I'm your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator.

Finley’s First Encounters With Ketamine

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Today I'm joined by Finley, who shares his lived experience of ketamine addiction and recovery. We explore why ketamine is often perceived as a cheap social party drug and how that perception can mask how quickly dependence develops and the serious physical and psychological harm it can cause. Finley reflects on his substance use, the illusion of control, and how ketamine shifted from feeling like a solution to becoming a source of severe withdrawal, physical damage and psychological distress. We also discussed the reality of ketamine bladder, the impacts of family and mental health, the stigma surrounding ketamine use, and what it ultimately took for him to stop. Highlighting the role of honesty, support and connection in recovery.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

The thing with ketamine is it's very sneaky, as I suppose a lot of substances are, and it almost reels you in, you know, and it gives you a very short, a very short-term buzz, if that's what you want to call it. I would have probably wouldn't call it a buzz because it's quite the opposite, but you get that little short-term feeling, you know, forget about your problems, forget about anything that's going on, and you know, you can trip out, you can have them sort of effects from it. And some people can go on for months, if not years, without seeing the consequences. So it gives you like a false sense of reality, really, that that it's safe to do, you know, and that it's it is a fun party drug, but the reality of it is we all know it couldn't be any further from the truth.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

What attracted you to to ketamine in the first place? Had you tried other substances? Because I know, like obviously, we in terms of your your lived experience recovery organisation, uh, the ketamine education service, there's a there's a big emphasis on ketamine. Was it the first substance that you chose? Did you use other substances but found this one to be more of a preference? What led you up to that point of of of ketamine addiction in a nutshell?

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Yeah, so so my first substance was cannabis, and then it led I had a problem with cannabis from being probably 15 till about 18, maybe. Then it was cocaine, cocaine came onto the scene, and I quickly became addicted to that. You know, I was kind of sniffing it on my own at 16, 17 year old in my bedroom at my mum's, none of my mates were doing it, but in my head I thought everyone was doing it, you know. I thought that was a normal thing to do. And then ketamine came on the scene when I was 18 year old, and it was really, really simple how I got kind of put onto it. I got a text message off a lad um who used to buy cocaine off, and he just texted me saying, I've got some ketamine, that that was it. Now

From Cannabis And Cocaine To Control Illusions

SPEAKER_02 2:39

I remember being with one of my mates, and I said, Oh, so I'm not gonna name him. So-and-so's got some ketamine, and it weren't even I remember it clear, there wasn't a conversation around what's the harms, what could it do, what's this, this, and this. It was just how much is it? I found out 30 pounds for a gram, get some, and that was it. Now, obviously, in Hardensat, if I'd have known what I know now, it'd have been a completely different conversation, you know. And that's obviously what we're trying to do now is to put the knowledge in place so that them decisions are based with a little bit of education, not just uh an off the cuff, yeah. Let's get some. Um it's quite worrying, really, to think because I know you can't you can't say ifs and buts, can you? But I often think if I'd have known or something would have been different, I could have saved all that period of of health and my life. But you know, I can't I haven't really got any regrets to be truthful about it because it's led me to where I am today, and I feel like my addiction's been the making of me. Sounds quite quite weird.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

No, it's not it's not the first time I've heard something like that. I think I think the thing that is interesting though is to talk about your use of cannabis, of course, and then ketamine. All of these substances kind of fall into that that recreational category before it often hits dependence. And and with recreational substance misuse, it's often down to the peer pressures we experienced. But you said then like none of your peers was using it, and I know you said you you thought they were. I guess kind of what brought you to use it in the first place, and if your friends wasn't using it. It's specific to get them in the world. Just substances in general, because I'd like to say, I think well, I remember the first time I started drinking with my mates, and that was the key thing, it was with my mates, it was like pushing the boundaries, it was it was that sort of again the the the the pushing the barriers that that teenagers do. And it it is often the same with with cannabis and and even cocaine, you know, for some people when they get a little bit older and when they start going out into pubs, clubs, and bars, it's quite accessible now. I know cocaine, weirdly enough, used to feel quite a taboo subject back then. Now I think people almost brag about taking it. It's weird how that culture has changed, but yeah, I guess the the interesting thing for me there is that none of your friends was using these substances, but you were still using them alone.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

So I think with with the cannabis, there was a there was a small group of us uh who used it pretty much every day, and we became reliant on it very quickly, but we weren't aware, you know, it was 15, 16, it's quite hard to just be factual about the age, but we're looking at that sort of age, and and I look back and none of us understood addiction. You know, I've got family members in addiction, close family members who are in recovery, so it was around

Is Addiction A Disease Or Inherited Risk

SPEAKER_02 5:20

me, but I still didn't understand what it were. And so we became addicted to the cannabis, and the lads I'm talking about still smoke it today. I stopped the cannabis at probably again 17-18, but cocaine came in, and it's interesting because I look back and and even before substances, really, I've always had an addictive personality.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Oh, that's interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Okay, so if I've done something that I've enjoyed, I'll do it and do it and do it and do it, you know, and I'll exhaust it. And that's kind of been a pattern. It could be anything, it's might sound silly, but even drinks or sweets to this day. If I like something, my girlfriend will vouch for this, I'll buy it and buy it, you know, and then I'll get bored of it and then I'll move on. And it is quite interesting.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

That's the nature of addiction in some way, isn't it? I I the previous participant actually shared a story of he said, I've always been an addict. He said the drugs were secondary, and it was something along the lines of when I was a kid, it was computer games, obsessed with them, you know, all day, every day. And then as I got a little bit older, it was girls, and then it was it was alcohol and it was cocaine. And he said, like, I've always been an addict, and I think that's quite interesting to say that to the nature of addiction. And it goes back to that idea of addiction being a disease. You mentioned yourself with having family, close family members that have you know struggled with addiction as well. What's your opinion on that, I guess, really? Because some people believe that addiction can be hereditary or something they inherit from family and that it is a disease. Where's your mind when it comes to that statement?

SPEAKER_02 6:43

So the biggest thing for me is I'd I don't personally, you know, and this isn't me saying it's right or wrong, or telling everybody.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

This is it's all opinion, yeah. I completely understand that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

I don't agree with calling it a disease. Okay, yeah. Uh you know, I'd never argue, I'd never tell somebody you can't call it a disease, but for me That's and that's the right approach to it, isn't it? Yeah, I I don't label it as a disease. I think when you think of diseases, you think or you're riddled with a disease and you think really negative, and it's you're thinking of cures and tablets and treatments, you know. And I think I I'm not a scientist, I can't sit and say it is a disease or it isn't, but for me, I never label it a disease, you know. However, when you look at the hereditary side of it, there is a possibility, you know, and the reason I say that my dad's a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, my uncle was a heroin addict. Don't really know far past that. Of course, yeah, yeah. So it kind of you think, well, you know, it makes sense, doesn't it, that it is hereditary, and that a lot of people you speak to, you'll have you'll have had it yourself that you you know you have conversations and they'll say, Oh yeah, my dad's in recovery, my mum's in recovery, or a lot of people's parents die in addiction. Um so there's definitely a factor, but I think for me I sway more towards kind of the issues that come along with addictions. So I think if you look at a family and you look at say the mum and dad that are in addiction and you've got a young child, that them parents, no matter how much they love the children, you know, and and I've found that out myself, you know, I never thought my dad loved me because of his actions. I'm very lucky that really I went through addiction because I understand he always loved me, but he just couldn't show it and couldn't, you know, due to his addiction. But if you get a parent or two parents or whatever that are in addiction, it's pretty much impossible for them to give that child what they need, you know, the the attention, the love, the patience, the all the stuff that you need as a child to to flourish, I suppose. I learned it in rehab, and they kind of the way they broke it down was as a fl as a flower, you know, from a seed. And if it doesn't get the right nutrients, the right water will grow and it'll be lobsided and all that sort of stuff. And it's that, you know, we're a seed and we need we need the right nutrients, love, affection, care, and all that sort of stuff. And I think if a family's in addiction, more so parents, brothers and sisters, the child ain't getting that, so then you grow up and you can have negative views on yourself. I'm not loved, I'm not heard, you know, and all these sort of things.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Basic needs aren't being met, are they? Yeah, that's it. You become a product of your environment. It's interesting you say that because I I've heard that from I guess a theoretical point of view or an educational point of view when I've done training. But it's interesting to talk to someone with with you know lived experience of an addiction to recognise that themselves as well, despite having family who are addicts as well, understanding that actually you've you've grown up in an environment where those basic needs weren't being met, and that's more likely to conclude in an addiction as opposed to being an environment where you that those needs are being met as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Yeah, no, it's yeah, 100%. But again, I still do think hereditary plays into it to some extent. I don't know how, I don't know how all that looks.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Well I felt yeah, I mean I've I've listened and read things before, and I don't think anyone's ever been able to provide concrete evidence of it. And and I guess that's anything. That's that's why the that's why we use the world the word theory, isn't it? Do you know, even the big bang theory, everyone kind of talks about that as being a scientific absolute, but at the end of the day, it's only a theory, do you know? It it's just the way it is. I just want to go back to to obviously talking about the the ketamine addiction as well, because you've done press for this, and uh part of the reason how we found you and wanted you to come and talk to us is as well. And you've said that ketamine or you describe ketamine as offering an escape before it took everything. What is it about ketamine

Why Ketamine Feels Like A Solution

SPEAKER_01 10:24

that makes it feel like a solution right up until it becomes the problem?

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah, so I think this is where you can look at addiction in general, and I think anybody can can identify with what I'm about to say if it makes sense to them. So early on, ketamine was a solution to me. You know, I didn't know I needed a solution, but I found ketamine and it gave me this solution to a problem I didn't really understand. Now, obviously, you take it and this solution works for a period of time like any substance does. Somewhere along the line, the ketamine becomes part of the problem, and the scary thing is you don't see it happen, you know, and it's almost blending in in the background, and it's a solution, a solution, and it starts drifting into part of the problem. And before you know it, the thing that was a solution is part of the problem, and now you've just got a big ball of problems, and it's like, how did I get here? So it's quite you know, that's that's a scary thing because there's no warnings, it's not like somebody comes and tells you that this is going to be you know become an issue. Um you just it's almost like you blink and you're in the you're in the midst of the madness of the the nev the negative effects of it. But to go back to your question, it's sort of I think for me, and it and you could argue about what we've just talked about, not getting what I needed, you know, it's it's a funny one. I've got a really good family, but and I almost sometimes feel guilty talking about this because my family they're amazing, and I know they love me to bits, and I love them to bits, but when you go back a few years, it's quite dysfunctional, you know, there was alcohol, mental health, all kinds of stuff going on that most people have to deal with. You know, I'm not sitting here playing victim or anything like that, I'm just explaining. And I and I do believe I grew up with certain views on myself, on the world, I was quite angry. And I found something in weed, I found something in cocaine, but I took ketamine and it was like weed cocaine put together times about ten.

SPEAKER_01 12:18

The escape level was Yeah, I was gonna last for one ketamine and not the other two, but yeah, yeah, that's interesting, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Now you've got the the the thing that makes it quite I'm not gonna say what feels like it makes it a good drug at the start, you can eat off it, you can sleep off it, you don't get rough off it, you can get up and go to work off it. You look at cocaine, you know, anyone that's took cocaine will tell you you have a couple of lines and you need more, you're not going to sleep till you've exhausted every every option, and then you're not going to work because your head's battered, you're on a bad come down weed, same again, just knocks you out and you wake up groggy, you know, and and and I found ketamine and it was like, wow, you don't do any of this. And and I actually remember speaking to someone and calling it like a winning lottery ticket. That's what I called it back then, because I could do all them things on it, but when I took it, everything disappeared, you know. So again, I I've struggled with mental health, I've struggled with with bits of anxiety and depression, and you know, little spells of it. And I was in a job I didn't like, you know, bits of my family relationships were a little bit unstable. And then you've got the stuff externally, as a young lad growing up, a teenager, you're in competition with everyone to have the best clothes and most money and holidays and jobs and girls and all this stuff that comes with it, and it was overwhelming. And I took it, and none of that stuff mattered. You know, it was like it was just me and this bag of care tripping, and it was good. It were, you know, and I will very quickly flip it round and say, because I don't like to to glamorise

Withdrawal, Tolerance And Pain Relief Loop

SPEAKER_02 13:48

it or make it sound like if you take care that's what's going to happen, because the chances of that lasting are very, very slim. And as good as it were, it were ten times worse, you know, once once I'd carried on taking it. But yeah, that that's kind of it. It gave me something, it gave me peace. It quieted my brain down and it gave me peace. But I paid a massive, massive price for six-month peace. It's a lifetime's worth of consequences. So when you look at it like on a bit of a scale, it's like it weren't worth it.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

We we explore opiate withdrawal and alcohol withdrawal in this area to some length. Does Ketman come with any withdrawal when you're not experiencing it? Or was that part of the winning lottery ticket feeling that it you didn't experience withdrawal either?

SPEAKER_02 14:34

No, so it's quite a grey area, this and there's a lot of conversations being had. So originally, when you're obviously first taking it, if you you can stop taking it, you might have a few sweats at now, but it's nothing, you know, it's not nothing like um a rattle. You know, I've seen people in rehabs have been in rattling, it's nothing like that. The worst one I had were a few bad dreams, if I ever had a few days off, you know, which were very rare. Long term, and and again, this is the grey area part. Now, there's an argument because as your tolerance builds up and the pain starts to kick in, you quickly find out when it's no secret that the only thing that will help is more ketamine. You know, I tried it where I took packets of painkillers, hot water balls, hot red hot baths, showers, tried everything, and some of it had worked for a minute, you know, while you're in the hot bath till it settled, then it then it's kind of back. And and I quickly found out if I doubled up the line that'd take the pain for a period of time. So you could argue realistically that so so for example, so I've built the tolerance up to the point now where I'm taking it as a painkiller, and I'm going into rehab the day after, for example, and I know that that painkiller's not there. I can take all these painkillers, but they're not gonna work. So you could argue that there is kind of a physical dependency on it for the pain relief side of things, but again, there's nothing in concrete to say that that is that's what it is, or that's just opinion. So it is a conversation that that people are having at the minute. Does that get classed as it or um but in terms of becoming ill in you know the shakes and rattling and and being sick and all that stuff, it doesn't no, I never expect it.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

It can come in different words as well, K,

The Slow Creep From Control To Consequences

SPEAKER_01 16:16

I suppose. I I guess going back to what you're saying about you know how how the addiction to Ketamin can creep up quietly, from what you've seen and lived, how fast can ketamine you spiral? I think why why do people not realise that they've lost control until the control itself has already gone?

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Yeah, it ties back into what I spoke about a couple of minutes ago with the substance being the solution to start off with, and you're so wrapped up in enjoying this peace and quiet, this this this time where you finish work, you know, because I'm still working early on in my recovery. I've been to work and I've had a bad day, you know, and go home and I get my cat and it's kind of it's like a little uh a ritual where I'm looking at it and I just know my problems disappear. And you're almost you're in love with it. It's like a love love-ate relationship. You're like in love, and it's like, wow, I know that you're gonna take my problems away, and you're worshiping this bag, and then you know, you're so caught up in the positives of it that the negatives are happening kind of under under under a blanket, if that makes sense, they're there, but you can't see them, yeah, you know, and it's weird with Cap because the damage is happening, you know, from the minute you take your first line, the damage is happening internally, but it can take again for some people, it can take months, some people a few years, but until it kicks in, it's almost the damage is it is progressing and progressing until you feel it. It's not like when you feel it, that's when it's starting. It's all been happening, but it's got to a point now where you're physically feeling it.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah, because obviously I guess that is probably the most dangerous aspect of ketamine as a substance. Is that the damage that that it you are doing to your body isn't showing up straight away? I I how does that delay convince people they're still in control then but when they're not?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Yeah, because you know you because you're enjoying it, you've got no reason to stop, have you? You know, it's not if you enjoy something, why stop doing it? It's because that's kind of how I look at it, and it's still doing what you want it to, you can still go to work, you're still affording it, so there's this seems like there's no issues, there's no debts coming with it, there's there's nothing. Uh this was my experience anyway.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

That's it. Well, that's that's the that's all you can give, really, isn't it? Is your your own your own personal account of it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah, so yeah, so so that's that's kind of how it catches up with you, and then all of a sudden you blink, link your fingers, and the consequences are there. But because now you've been taking it for for me, it were probably six months a year-ish, yeah, which taking a substance daily for that long, you you you you know, you're relying, aren't you? So by the time it comes to the consequences, you're full of denial, you know, or you're full of guilt and shame because all of a sudden you're having to kind of admit to yourself that there's an issue, so then you're using it then to deal with them problems, you know, and because of the denial, you can all I'm I remember saying to myself, regular, I can stop if I want. And I'd convince myself about yeah, I'm in control of this, and I would genuinely make myself believe I was in control because I've never experienced trying to stop taking a substance as such, because I'm taking them all, you know, and recovery weren't something that I was aware of. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

It makes me think of previous conversations I've had around like uh hepatitis C, which is a very common bloodborne virus that people can get from sharing drug paraphernalia, especially if they're using heroin. And the scary thing with hep C is a lot of people are living with it, but it's not affecting them on that day-to-day, and it doesn't become an issue for someone until 20 years down the line. So it's hard to get someone to recognise the damage that that that's doing to their body for something that they don't really need to kind of or at least they don't feel like they need to deal with for another 10-20 years, maybe. And I guess it's similar to this in the sense of they can take this substance daily, like you said, there's no there's no hangover, there's there's very little withdrawal. Like you said, for for someone with a substance misuse problem, for someone who's trying to look for escapism, it's like winning the lottery. The interesting thing that I found with ketamine is there's there's people that can, you know, maybe use it for a year daily and not necessarily see those negative effects that it's having. But then for some people it can start to unravel for them almost instantly.

Ketamine Bladder: Blood, Jelly And Trauma

SPEAKER_01 20:29

One of the things that scares me the most with ketamine use is is the phrase ketamine bladder. Because I guess the reality of that includes uh blood, organ damage, chronic pain, and that I guess it's a permanent loss of dignity in a way, having to have to have what what what that can do. What are we still not being honest enough about when we talk about ketamine's physical harm?

SPEAKER_02 20:54

I think I think there is a lot of honesty out there now. You know, I think there is a lot more a lot more people speaking out on social media, you know. Obviously, our accounts are ketamine education, so everything's related. And I flick through and there's hundreds of videos of people from all over the country and some even the world talking about it. I think the problem we've got is the conversations aren't being had in the right places. And for me, I'm a massive ad advocate advocate for prevention. Yeah, it's way easier than intervention, you know. And I think this that this kind of comes back to, you know, I'm not passing blame to anyone, it's for the government to look at and be like, look, this issue is here, it's rap, they can see it, they only need to Google it, you know, and it's all over the stats are there to see. Obviously, we're hands-on, so we're seeing the the lives being ruined. But I think in terms of honest conversations, it's about saying, right, it needs to be in schools, it needs to be. I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and say it needs to be mandate mandatory in every school.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

But I could I would argue, you know, it is, and I suppose it's how you approach people. I remember when we were teenagers at school, we'd have some. Like a group coming and they'd act out this play in front of us around don't do drugs, and it was just really cringy, you know, to the point where it's like you can't take this seriously. It's a bunch of adults in the 30s pretending to be teenagers, it's just straight over the head. So the messages can be done and they can be implemented early in schools. I guess it's just how do you have those conversations? I think one of the, and this is just from a from a third-person perspective, but it's like anything. I think one of the biggest problems when when we have these conversations, or when people even use substances, is that idea of I I get the dangers, but that'll never happen to me. Yeah, there's almost like a there's an ego, like a and yeah, like they're wearing this coat of their ego there, of all these things that's happening to everyone else. They're almost trying to shield themselves from it in a way that this will not happen to them. But it will do. And I think the scary thing more so it's like when I said about blood bomb viruses, and and that's not something that some people will have to deal with for another 10-20 years, with ketamine use, as you said, the damage is instant, and it takes me back to one of the meetings that we had recently as a as a drug service, and it was like you you said prevention is better than early intervention, and we've been discussing early intervention for I mean the last 10 years. What does early intervention actually look like? And I think looking at ketamine in in particular, one of the leaders of this service had said, Well, early intervention isn't just about giving harm reduction advice at an early stage in someone's journey. When it comes to ketamine, we need to be sending sending people off for for urine screenings and and to to assess the damage that's done to their bladder already, because they could only have been using ketamine for maybe a a couple of a couple of weeks, a couple of months, but showing them results of look, the damage is there to your bladder already, if you continue like this, you're gonna end up with as they affectionately call it, the the ketamine bladder, and it's that reality of that situation to people.

SPEAKER_02 23:53

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny because I was in a meeting yesterday having this having quite a similar conversation, and what they were saying were the early interventions now, even though they're early in terms of a time scale, they're not early because these people that come in through doors for you know your local drug and alcohol services are absolutely battered from ketamine, and what they're having to do is get them in and fire them straight off the detoxes. So these and a lot of them are younger, you know. From where I know you see a little bit of a different demographic, but a lot of the areas where I'm from, up more up north, up Burnley and Liverpool, Manchester, them areas, a lot of them are younger people, which obviously has its own risks because a lot of them are underdeveloped, you know, their organs and kidneys and all the rest of it aren't as they should be, so naturally they're going to take a bigger hit. A lot of them are already not developed in terms of body mass and size, so again, it takes a bigger hit. But one of the worrying things is drug and alcohol services are saying they're coming in, some of them are 16, 17-year-old, you know, with the young people, obviously the normal services, 18, 19, whatever it might be, and they're presenting, and as soon as they present, they they're already peeing blood, they're already getting the cramps, the kidneys and livers are already on the way out, and services are saying, look, we're not we're not a medical unit, we can't deal with this. We need to send you to a detox, which you could argue is brilliant because now these young people they're getting sent off to detox. Yeah, outside looking in that looks brilliant because yeah, they're gonna go, but when you know about a detox, you know, detox is brilliant. I'm not calling detox, but these young people, what's happening with a lot of them now is they're going to do a two-week detox because of the physical pain. What's getting mixed up is the fact that when you go to a detox, that's that's for your body, you know. Rehab is where you do the work on your brain on the real stuff that can bring around long-term recovery.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

For the use to begin with, do you know what I mean? Exactly. There was there was a reason to start using that substance to begin with. It's it's like any any detox, isn't it, really? Do you know? I mean, I've seen people go through emergency alcohol detoxes, but we haven't addressed the reasons why they was drinking in the first place. So they go for that detox. I remember one guy, he'd gone for his alcohol detox and he was on the train home, and the the little woman came down, you know, anything from the trolley deer, and he got himself a got himself a can of lager, do you know? Because he'd he thought he was fixed then, he thought he could drink in quotations normally because he'd gone through that detox. So people are gonna come out of these Ketamin detoxes, you're not addressing the reasons for use. And it sounds like by you know, by your by your own experience, you've done a lot of work on yourself talking about your family and and and those connections. If they haven't done all that, then the Ketaman use is just gonna start again, isn't it? When they get back out of detox.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

There's a good chance, yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong, I know a lot of people that that speaking to someone again yesterday in the meeting, and there's a girl that had gone done a two-week, and she's 107 days clean, you know, which is brilliant, still very early, but there is there is cases where people do go to a detox and they do get sober, but yeah. It's like you've just said, the way I see it is for me, and you know, again, just my opinion. I think unless if you fall into addiction, there's a reason, you know, and you can go in and you can deal with the substance until you dig deep and you understand why you fell into that addiction. Some people don't agree, some people might, but it's my opinion.

Denial, Family Impact And Turning Points

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Until you dig deep on it and find out what it is, why do you feel the way you do? Why do you want to stop feeling the way you do? What are you running from, hiding from, whatever it might be? You are always at risk of not necessarily substance abuse but negative behaviours and and and addictions. And I think as human beings we are anyway. I'm not sitting here saying I don't make mistakes because I do, but I understand the way my mind works, you know. I'm not saying again I'm perfect, and then I've done loads of work and I'm like uh some kind of saint because I'm not, you know, but I've done in enough work up to now to understand why I took substances, to understand how fast I can slip back into where I were. And there's all these there's all these factors, you know, that you do when you go into a rehab, and there's a reason it takes three months because there's a lot of work to do, you know, and if it were if two weeks was enough, rehab would be two weeks. You know, some rehabs is a rehab that we work closely with. Some lads in there, and it's a male only, you've been there two, three years, and the programme just continues, you know. So it's um it's not a short-term fix, but I think again, with the age as we see in, and and and I've you know, I've been that person with with the ego, with impatient, naive, you know, I was very I was all of them three things, plus probably another ten more uh in my first few rehabs. I've done four rehabs, I think, four or five. My first three rehabs, I was I were like that. I thought all I need to do is turn up, just be there. Somebody's gonna pass me a book or let me drink a magic pot or something, and I'll be alright, and I'll walk out and life goes back to normal.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

I don't think people realise how much work you have to do on yourself in somewhere like a rehab, and it's the same here as a substance misuse service. I had a call just uh around Christmas time and it was a woman saying uh saying she wants to refer her husband into treatment. I said, Does he want to be in treatment? She went, Well, he's agreed to come come once, and I was like, Okay. I said, Do you realise there's nothing we can do with someone in one session? And it's it's that level of work, but I do think in some way people think that we just have this little magic wand, and it's the same when people go off to rehab. I think people think they're just gonna go there, they're gonna like use it, drink a magic portion and come out and be absolutely fine. Yeah, there's a lot of self-work there, isn't there, that you have to to go through for it to be sustainable when you you when you come out. One of the things that I found interesting that you've said is that there comes a point where Ketterman stops being about fun and starts looking like self-harm, and that's an interesting an interesting connection to look at it. Can you tell me a little bit more about how it's a strong thing to say, self-harm is obviously a very serious thing, is it? It's a strong thing to say. Can you tell me how it looked like self-harm?

SPEAKER_02 29:57

I think any addiction becomes self-harm because as much as we can deny and ignore what we're doing to ourself, you know, and the harm it's having, like I did with ketamine. Got to a point I would pee in blood jelly, which is the gagler in my bladder, relationships locked down. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Oh sorry, I'm gonna have to interrupt. Tell me about telling never I've never heard that one before. What's that?

SPEAKER_02 30:19

Right, okay, yeah. So we'll pick back up, so we'll talk about the jelly. So obviously, the first steps you start getting the pains, the ketamine bladder, and without going too much into it right now, I'm sure we'll pick it back up. The pain is absolutely stupid, I've never felt pain like it. The kind of next steps is seeing bits of blood in your urine, and that then becomes normal. This again, my experience, it became normal, so much so that if I went to the toilet and didn't see blood, I'd be more shocked than if I did. And it's like, but by this point, I'm still I'm still deflecting the fact that it's ketamine that's doing that to me. I'm blaming something I've had for tea or something I've drank, or that cherry ahead I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Falling over when I was two year old and banging my kidneys, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Must have been that thing that happened all those years ago.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Yeah, yeah. Anything and everything, and we do, don't we? But then when it got scary, was seeing this jelly

Culture, Stigma And Early Intervention

SPEAKER_02 31:13

come out. The way I describe it to people, and and I say this twice a week, so I apologize anyone who likes these sweets, but it's almost like the little jelly worms, the clear sweets that you get. That's the best way I could describe it. That's it. And and when I when you think about urinating, anyone who's never had pain, it's like it's a liquid, it just comes out. Let me tell you, when you've seen clumps like that and that, you know, just for anyone obviously who's listening, you're talking, some of them are like an inch and a half in length. When trying to pass through the pain, it's unbelievable. It feels like you've got glass coming through, and it's trying to, and every time you squeeze, it's moving off.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

I'm feeling the pain like in my grass, as you're just describing it. I'm just I can feel it like when you're just wincing, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

But I'm wincing there, it's oh it's it's horrible, you know, and it's it does me good talking about this stuff if I'm being honest, because I can often forget, you know, and I can and I can because I get caught so caught up in day-to-day life, and sometimes I forget where I've been. So it's good just to remind me, it's good to sit down and have to put myself back in that just for a split, you know. And it's passing through your bladder and then it comes out eventually, but it can take some of them can take hours to come out, so you can feel it. Oh no, top, yeah. Uh but what it can do is it can block urine from coming out, so the urine can actually back up and cause all kinds of problems. And you can go to the toilet, long story short, and be dying for the toilet, and you're standing, you're squeezing and you're squeezing, and nothing's coming out. You'd be lucky to get a drop, but you know you need to go. You can't go, so you go back to your bedroom. You know, by this point, now I'm isolated away. This is just my again my story. And I'll sit back down for 10 minutes, and that whole 10 minutes I feel like I'm gonna wee myself, but I know I'm not gonna because it's not coming out, and then eventually, this you know, this jelly will pass through and it'll come out, and then the urine will come out, and it's like, oh thank god. And I never knew what the jelly were for quite a long period of time, which is quite scary, really, to think that I haven't seen it coming out. But again, I knew if I googled it and I and I and I did, but if I knew if I looked hard enough, I'd find the answer. But it's what don't knock on a door if you don't like who's gonna answer, it's one of them, so I didn't look too too hard. And in hindsight, now basically what was happening was it's the gag layer of my bladder. So how I kind of describe it, and I'm not a doctor, you know, I don't want to sit here like I'm uh clever or I'm a doctor because I'm not, but how I like to think of it is if you look at the way the skin acts externally, the gag layer of the bladder is kind of that internally on your bladder. So if you drink fizzy pop, caffeine, all the things that we know irritate all our bowels and stomachs and that kind of thing, that's what it does to the bladder, and that gag layer protects it from kind of from the raw, you know, the raw organ around it, if that's what you want to call it. The ketamine it literally eats that the gag layer, you know, it literally sticks to it and then it just eats it, and then that comes off into your bladder, and obviously then it's got to pass through. So that's what I was seeing with the jelly. And the scariest and the saddest thing about this, really, you know, is the amount of people that are getting that on a daily basis, up and down the country, even the world, you know. We speak to people from America and we've had people from New Zealand and all kinds of places that they've got little pockets where it's a massive problem there, and you know, and I've spoken about this in the past, and you get a real mixed thing on this. So for anybody, you know who is this who doesn't understand addiction, you spite that question, but why would you keep doing it? They don't understand it, they're like, and they'll they'll they'll be this blame, they'll say, Well, it's your fault, and you know, and I'm the type of person I'll take responsibility 100%, it's my fault because I put the first line in, and I I knew if I took one line I'm at risk of addiction, you know. So if I'd take the responsibility 100%, but at the same time, it's like I never knew taking ketamine would cause these problems, and and I'd like to think if I did know that I wouldn't have taken it, but truth of the matter is I don't know, do I? You know, I'm not gonna sit here and say that, but but yeah, that that's kind of the jelly. But I've got some photos and stuff on my phone I can I can show you after if you want, just to yeah, I think there's the self-harm things, you know.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Obviously, I and I I completely agree with what you're saying, all addiction is self-harm, but to be putting yourself through that, and I guess like you said, then the bizarre thing is to be experiencing that, but to still continue taking care men. You said you didn't Google it specifically because you you knew it was linked to it. There very much sounds like there's an element of denial to that though, because you didn't want it to be that, and it goes back to what you're saying that you found the miracle drug, and it's almost like it sounds like you you're trying to defend it in a way, like it's like I don't want it to I don't want to accept there's anything negative about this because this is my lottery ticket, this is this is my this is my winnings here. When did you start to accept that okay ketamine is what is causing this horrendous damage to my bladder?

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Do you know it's it's funny really because and it sort of goes back to the self-horn without getting sidetracked.

Decision‑Making, Risk And Dissociation

SPEAKER_02 36:24

I think you get to a certain point with the consequences. Your self-esteem and your self-low it is so bad, it's non-existent, you know, it's gone the complete opposite way to the point where now you don't I didn't care about myself. I wasn't interested whether I lived or died, in fact, without again going off topic too much, and I'm not even into God. I used to pray that God would take my life away. I didn't want to wake up. I was again very fortunate to have some good family around me, and it I've got sidetracked, I know I'd do that. Can you just ask me a question again?

SPEAKER_01 36:59

I guess really it was just about I've got sad track now because I was listening there. Um sorry Robin.

unknown 37:06

Alright.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

So we was talking about the the self-harm element of it. That was it. It was when did you realise that or when did you accept that it was Ketamin that was causing that damage to your bladder?

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Yeah. So yeah, so again, you know, my self-esteem was so low. It wasn't necessarily that the physical effects that that made me look and accept what it were. For me, it was it was the family stuff, it was the relationship breakdowns, seeing you know, my mum ringing me up, crying, my dad ringing me up, telling me he didn't want to be here anymore, missing time with my niece who at the time would have been four-year-old, three, four-year-old, lover to bit, she's my best mate, and constantly rushing about or being having ket cramps and having to shoot off, and and it was that for me more than anything that mounted up and made me think, right, you know, look what you're doing to your family, and and that's then kind of when I started looking back to myself and thinking, Yeah, but you look what you're doing to your cell as well, you know, and it was kind of a combination. So for me, it wasn't again, it wasn't necessarily just the physical stuff, or that wasn't the the turning point, it was the external factors with my family and and even my friendships and stuff. It's um and and it's tricky because I used on that as well. You know, that was there was a good chunk where I'd I'd where my mum would ring me for example, or a story I tell quite regularly, I bumped into my mum once on a main road. I live with my stepdad, she's back with my dad, and they live kind of where I lived after they'd split up it long story without getting into it all. And I bumped into her on a main road and and she looked at me, and she was about to say sorry, thinking it was just a stranger. I'll never forget this, and I tell this a lot in the talks that I do, and she looked at me and the colour just drained instantly out of her face. And she'd not seen me for probably two or three weeks, because that's what I did. I'd vanish for two or three weeks of going a big bender, then I'd resurface, you know, come out of hibernation, coming around trying to find money and borrow money, and like we do. And uh, she just looked at me and the colour drained, and I didn't know what to say to her. I was actually going to pick up some ketamine a couple of streets on, and I'm in agony, and at that point I probably looked the worst I've ever looked. I think I'd got down to about eight stone, seven and a half, eight stone, bit of context. Now I'm about 13, you know. Naturally, I should be about 11, 12, you know, or so, and this was a few years back as well. So I'm way underweight, pale as a ghost, big long beard, not had my hair cut, probably not had a shower realistically in days, probably not brushed my teeth in days, you know. I was a mess. And she just looked at me and and she couldn't talk. I could see her brain working and just trying to say something to me, and she just couldn't, and I couldn't say, 'Oh, I wanted to hug her and say I'm sorry.' But sorry's an absolute waste of time by this point. The amount of times I've said they've had a pound for every time I've said it, I'd be a billionaire, you know. And it was just this really it was a heartbreaking interaction. But the reason I'm telling you this is because then my mum had to go home off the back of that and go and sit and and not know where I'm going, not know where anything about me. Is he gonna be here tomorrow? Is he gonna kill his cell? Is cat gonna kill him? Blah blah blah. I went and picked my cat up and straight away I had a bump of it, and that issue that

Physical And Psychological Warning Signs

SPEAKER_02 40:16

had just happened disappeared now. And that's kind of a really good representation of how it worked, but it's kind of ironic because the reason I'm taking it now is because I've caused a problem from taking it, so it kind of sheds a bit of light, doesn't it? How you take it at first for a bit of fun, but you find out it's the solution, but then you start causing problems from it, and now you don't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

Yeah, I think I think one of the things I I've always found interesting is the idea of when people talk about like the the continuous trauma element, and and it's not to not putting this onto your story directly, but what it reminds me of is when people first start using a substance for escapism, maybe from a trauma, but then when they're deep in addiction, they're experiencing more and more trauma, so then it's harder to get out because that escapism or that need for escapism becomes deeper and deeper and deeper. I mentioned cocaine and I guess the culture on cocaine is shifting because cocaine now, I mean, like I see little Instagram reels and and it's all about like you know, they're making a bit of light of it. And I've been on nights out where you hear people say, Oh, I've just just done a bump in the no like real audible about it. Whereas again, when I was a bit younger, there was a bit of shame there people would be wiping the nose, worried that someone would notice that they'd had it. And I think in in a way, do you know ketamine still has this stigma of being hidden compared to other drugs? Why do you think that is when other drugs seem to be glamorised, especially party drugs like you know, cocaine and and MDMA, all those sort of things. Why is there still such a stigma with ketamine then?

SPEAKER_02 41:54

It's quite interesting that I think so again. Obviously, I'm from Burnley from from round here, around Hullway, so it's probably slightly different, but I'd imagine it's very, very similar. Yeah, what what what I saw, and again, for I'm I'm 26 now and I started taking it at 18, you know. So what I kind of saw early on was people were taking it and it just started becoming, you know, again 2018, 2019, it was starting to become kind of a cool drug.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

I remember going to the first festival when it had just come around, and it was crazy. It was like a zombie apocalypse. Everyone had gone from swallowing pills and doing cork, being you know, out and about and active to just lead on floor, like literally like zombies. But it started to become cool, and you could see it progressing in clubs, more people would be taking it, and you could obviously you know if someone's on cat by the way they are, take someone takes a bump of cork, they're alert, aren't they? And it's the opposite. So you kind of seen it starting, and then all of a sudden, I think within probably two or three years of that, people started feeling the consequences, and it started going the other way then, to the point where now I know people that take it, but it's kind of and again it's tricky because I'm not in the circles that I were anymore, you know. I mean recovery, so I don't know what it's like at festivals. I imagine it's the same, but from what I see personally, the people obviously I speak to are trying to get recovery, so there's a lot of guilt around it, so they're not us out, but I do feel like it's taking a bit of a backwards step due to the press coverage, the media, all that sort of stuff. I think now when people take it, I can only imagine there's a bit of guilt attached, even to someone who's not an addict, because they're gonna remember watching BBC documentaries of someone walking round with with nephrostomies on, or you know. But I think when we talk about kind of the stigma, and again, it's a bit of a I don't know again, a bit of a grey area, but I think there needs to be more stigma attached to it. And I don't say that in a sense of stigma where you know people say, Oh, Ketem, ooh. Because I if I someone actually said that to me not long back, what did they say? It's nitty. Knitty. Doing a talk in a college and some lag, and when I'd just done the talk and he came out when he's like, Oh, it's for nittties, ketamine. And I was like, Alright, fair enough. If that's what you think, you're not gonna take it, so that's alright.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Yeah, job, job done, yeah in a weird way. Yeah, yeah. Job done. Um but also still kind of offended at the same time, you know. Like, hang on, mate. That was my that was my drug, didn't you? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

I shook my hand before he gave me an hook and all that, then said I'm a nitty. I was like, Yeah, cheers pal. Good job. We're in college.

What Helps: Honesty, Connection, Responsibility

SPEAKER_02 44:35

Yeah, but anyway, so back to it. So, yeah, so I think stigma in terms of understanding and awareness and education, you know, not stigmas in terms of let's call your names and let's look down on you, because naturally that already happens with addiction, doesn't it? Of course, yeah. In society, unfortunately. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

People often say that they've they you know, it goes back to that control element, they thought they was choosing it, but really it was choosing them. What does it do to that decision making? The insight and the belief that you are still in control. I'm just thinking about when you said when people are on cocaine, they're a little bit more alert, aren't they? And the differences of of whether they're under the influence of Kerman.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

Yeah. So yeah, in terms of decision making, I think, and again I can only speak for myself, but cocaine I got in a lot more dangerous situations because it usually came for the first few years it came hand in hand with drink. Well, first couple of years, then it started, you know, it was dry sniffing cocaine. But obviously, then you're out and about on nuts out. You I'm a young lad, it's testosterone, all my mates are out getting ready. So we got into a lot more, I'm not gonna say dangerous situations, but stupid situations. When it was ketamine, we'd someone had a free house, for example, you know, we're young lads, we'd go around all chipping, had a big bag, and as wild as it got was us all being in the kettle at the same time, and we're kind of just moping round house. I'd actually love, you know, to get CCTV footage of what we look like, um, you know, and I'm not gonna go into what what I experienced and stuff because I don't want to glamorise it, you know, learn. But there'd be eight of us in I remember one time Christmas years ago, there's about eight of us in my mate's grandma's house, she'd gone away, better not saying names actually. And every single one of us were walking round, and I remember kind of sobering up and looking round, and everyone again is like zombies, no foot, no colour in the face, just eyes like just gone. And at the time I thought, this is good, like this this feeling's brilliant. I looked back, and all it were is was just not feeling reality. That's what I loved about the detachment of it, yeah. It's a disassociative drug, and then that's what it does. So if you want to disassociate, you take that.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

That's what people take, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Yeah, so your decision making, yeah. Again, weren't really in loads of I don't know, because then you look at the way you take it at festivals and walking round, and you know, I used to go and pick it up on my own every day. I used to walk up near where I'm from. I'm not gonna again saying the names in case people get linked in with stuff, but walk up at a main road, and as soon as I got it, I had to take it because of the pain I'm in, and I'd have a big bump on my hand, and I'd be fairly out of it, and I'd be walking, crossing over the main roads back home. So, you know, it does affect your decision making, really.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Yeah, to think, yeah, because I guess it's like any substance. I mean, how many times you see people under the influence of alcohol and almost think they've got this some invulnerability to danger, you know, people just walking out in front of roads, like all cars are just gonna stop for them, or something like that. It creates this almost like um I think of a scene, I think it was in like um a superhero film that I saw, Hancock with Smith where they truck it same and he just dints the bringing it. I'm sure that's how people feel when they do take certain substances because they do just walk out in front of the road. And I don't know if there's this arrogance thing of or this belief that they'll stop for me because I'm important, you know what I mean? Or if it's just a case of completely oblivious to the situation as well. Yeah. We've talked about the the some of the physical effects in terms like the the effects it has on the bladder, but what are some of the other physical or even psychological warning sounds that that shouldn't be ignored when it comes to ketamine's?

SPEAKER_02 48:16

There's a list, there's a real list with with this sort of stuff. So psychosis can be one of them, leading to psychosis, you know, when you're seeing some of the stuff that you see, you can kind of end up not knowing what's real, what's not real, when you're having episodes, when you're not, you know, there's that so there's that issue. There's the issue with younger people, again, we talked we touched on it earlier. Um, you know, if you're I'm not gonna put age limits on it, because if someone hears it and thinks, oh, I'm older than that, I'm alright. Yeah, if you're you know safe for me because I've hit this. Yeah, if you're a certain age and you're still developing, you know, your brain and your and your body physically, I've seen it. There's a there's a lad that I know personally from where I live, not gonna mention names, and lovely lad, you know, really nice lad, did a few years in ketamine addiction and other stuff before that. But you speak to him, and I genuinely believe, you know, again I'm not a doctor, but I honestly believe because he's put substances in his brain, chemicals in his brain and in his body, while he's trying to develop, there's no social skills there. It's almost like you're talking to a blank canvas, and it takes him seconds and seconds to re to respond, and it's sad.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Well, it's all like arrested development syndrome with with people under the people who use substances, like even some of the some of the guys and girls we work with, sometimes I think you're acting like teenagers, and then you realise, well, actually, it's because in some way the mental growth was stunned at at being that teenage years. Think of some of the behaviours they display the same ones that me and my friends displayed when we were teenagers drinking on the park. Yeah, and it's almost like why why is that a thing? But it's very much a real thing, isn't it? If you take substances in LH, you can develop it, can stunt your mental growth and physical growth as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Yeah, so that that's one speech, memory, hearing, smell, all that sort of stuff that comes with it, but yeah, more sort of the body. So the it's weird because well it's not weird, it makes sense. It affects a male body and a female body quite differently. Yeah, naturally, obviously, we've got different setups, haven't we? They've got stuff we aren't, vice versa. There's a lot of stuff now pointing towards infertility in males and females, and

Quick‑Fire Closing Questions And Farewell

SPEAKER_02 50:24

even if you you know take the infertility out of it, the the body's struggling to even provide what it needs. To I'm not going to use the ex the the examples that I've got because it's quite you know touchy subject with people that might listen, but these these girls that fell pregnant by accident off the back of pills, tablets not working because cancels it out, yeah. Yeah, the body's not breaking it down as it should be. So then they fell pregnant. Some of them have said, Oh yeah, we'll have the baby, you know, they're in recovery, early recovery, and then they've miscarried. And again, just just to double up on it, I'm not a scientist, but there's evidence to kind of suggest that the damage that's been done to the internal organs now, they can't provide what needs to be provided for another life, and unfortunately, you know, now with lads infertility, I know for a fact this is this is a thing, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's long-lasting, you know, it's not like you're gonna be infertile for the rest of your life, but I know when you speaking from kind of personal experience without saying too much, it can make you infertile while you're taking it. Um erectile dysfunction's one, so there's then with the with the private areas, you know, with girls, it can affect periods and the complete, you know, that kind of reproductive system and all that sort of stuff. Then you've got problems with obviously kidney, liver, prostate, bladder that we've talked about, stomach, what else? There's there's so many.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

It does it does a number on just about everything. It's the same with I guess, you know, again, my my the experiences that I have on this podcast are primarily on hope it's an alcohol, but conversation I had about alcohol being related to various cancers, and people never would would suspect that to be a thing, but it's scientifically proven that you know alcohol consumption can attribute and and to to various cancers. I guess it's obviously we're talking a lot about your own experiences here, but if someone was listening to this and and recognises themselves in in what you're saying, uh and they're using ketamine to cope or to uh harden the damage and telling them they'll they'll stop tomorrow. And the same with that you know addicts do what truth do they need to face before ketamine takes anything any more or any anything more away from them?

SPEAKER_02 52:39

First thing I'd I'd say is tomorrow never comes. That'd be the first thing I'd say. There's thousands of times where I've led there at night and I've said tomorrow's the last that's it. This is the last line I'm having, tomorrow changes, and it never happened up to the time it wants, you know. So that'd be the first thing I'd say, tomorrow never comes. If you're gonna do something, do it now, get cracking. You know, the first thing is honesty, you know, and it's easier said than done. I'm not gonna sit here and say from the minute I decided I had a problem, I was completely honest. But honesty is vital. Connection, reaching out, finding what supports around you, and I don't know what kind of audience, but we're here in this building, it looks a brilliant setup, you know, finding your local drug and alcohol services, getting in touch with them. There's a big, a big I'm not gonna say misconception, because it's been there, and for some people it probably still is around ketamine education in GPs, drug and alcohol services hospitals, even urology departments, you know, there's there's been a a big thing of lack of education around it. However, things have changed massively. So this is a message I do like to push. If you have tried it, if you have reached out for support, or you've had a negative experience in any of the places we've just spoken about, try it again because things have changed a lot, and your experience this time will be ten times different to the first one. But reaching out for support, speak to the people around you. Some people are very fortunate to have good family, good friends, some people haven't, you know, and I appreciate that, and obviously, you know, I empathise with that. It's being honest with the people around you and taking responsibility. That's when things really changed for me, was when I took responsibility for it. When I stopped saying it's your fault, your fault, your fault. It's this living in blame, you know. Well, I lived in blame for so long that stopped me taking responsibility. And if I live in blame or don't take responsibility, how am I going to change? It was kind of the turning point for me was saying, Look, I've got myself in this mess, I've got to get myself out of it. Nobody's gonna come and knock on my door and whisk me away to some rehab and do the work and just give me a portion. So that'd be it, yeah. I said connection in our connection's massive. You know, it's the way I see it is kind of reversing. Look at the behaviours that you do in addiction, you've got to flip it. Yeah, so it's looking at right. What does that so you're isolated in addiction? So I need to be connected, you know. I'm dishonest in in addiction, so I need to be honest, and just flipping every single thing and just trying to implement it in your day-to-day life. One of the good sayings that I like from from the fellowships from AA and CA, etc. Um, there was a couple, but just for today, yeah, just for today is a massive one, and I don't talk about this enough in how much it helped me early on in my recovery, in my last recovery. Things can get hard a day, it can feel like a long time. You can break it down, you can say an hour, ten minutes, whatever. But I said it to myself plenty of times, and I said it more so on the bad days. Just for today, you know, tomorrow's a new day. I'm not promised tomorrow, I'm not gonna think about tomorrow yet, but let me just get through today if that's where and what I need to do. And that's one of them. But the the this next one is being willing, open and honest. And obviously, anyone from fellowships will hear them a lot, and I don't talk about the fellowships too much, but someone said to me early on, practice being willing, open and honest, you know, in not just in recovery, in all aspects of your life and watch how it improves, you know. It is for people who are even in addiction, I suppose. It's it's a real good um philosophy to live by, I think.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

Yeah, absolutely. I think fellowships can sometimes get a bit of a bad rap sometimes, but I definitely think there's things that anybody can take away from it despite being in addiction, not or not. And yeah, I think that willing, what was it, willing? Open and honest. Willing, open and honest, yeah. I think that that's really good, though. Finn, thank you so much for joining me on Believing People. I've got a series of questions that I like to end all my podcast on. And my favourite first question to you is uh what is your favourite word? Favourite word?

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Yeah, uh probably uh favourite word. I don't think I've got one. Really?

SPEAKER_01 57:00

What's my least favourite word?

SPEAKER_02 57:07

C U N T probably. Tell me something that excites you. Something that excites me. I can answer that. Boxing, fishing, football, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

Tell me something that drains your energy, or something that bores you.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Paperwork writing and all that boring stuff. What sound or noise do you love? Sound sound of guitar acoustic guitars and water.

SPEAKER_01 57:32

What sound or noise do you hear?

SPEAKER_02 57:44

When a scru uh a fork or a spoon scratches a plate.

SPEAKER_01 57:49

I think that's probably mine as well. Oh, when collary rubber together. Yeah, I can feel it on my teeth. When do you feel most like yourself?

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Probably when I'm just I'd like to just I've just got a fish a new fish tank. Change colour on the fish tank, turn light or something, just uh it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

What profession would you like to attempt?

SPEAKER_02 58:25

Never really said this to many people, but acting.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

What profession would you not like to do?

SPEAKER_02 58:39

Guessing something with a lot of paperwork. Paperwork, yeah, but this is gonna be a quiet and I don't want to offend anyone. I did it for years in my life, but construction, I would like to go back into construction. That's understandable.

SPEAKER_01 58:49

I think when you've done it before, yeah. I always say this about cleaning. I used to be a cleaner. I'm not knocking I'm not knocking cleaning by any means, but God I absolutely hated it. Yeah. And lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearley gates?

SPEAKER_02 59:03

Hmm. That's a good question, that probably just that I've been a good person and and I've tried to help people. Good question that I like that one. It's quite deep, really.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Something to ponder on your way back to Birdley. Yeah. Finn, thank you so much for joining me on Believe in People. No, thank you for having me. And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. Leaving a review will help us reach more people and continue to challenge stigma around addiction and recovery. For additional resources, insights, and updates, explore the links in this episode description. And to learn more about our mission and hear more incredible stories, you can visit us directly at believinpeoplepodcast.com.