Dates, Mates and Babies with the Vallottons
Dates, Mates and Babies with the Vallottons
99. Carl & Laura Lentz: The True Story About Carl's Scandal, His Restoration & Laura’s Strength Amid Betrayal
Imagine the weight of rebuilding a marriage amidst public scrutiny and personal failure. Laura and Carl Lentz know this journey all too well, and they graciously join the Vallottons to share their path of healing and redemption following Carl's affair in 2020. Through candid conversations, they explore the complexities of maintaining genuine relationships in the face of betrayal, and the powerful role community support can play in times of crisis. Their story is not just one of personal recovery, but also a testament to the resilience found in embracing vulnerability and committing to change.
Beyond their personal trials, the Vallottons tackle the broader theme of balancing emotional health with spiritual growth. In a world where hyper-spirituality often masks deeper issues, the Lentzes open up about the necessity of addressing deep-seated pain and the deceptive self-lies that perpetuate addiction. Our conversation digs into the intricate dynamics of rebuilding trust after infidelity, underscoring the pivotal moments of honesty and the proactive steps needed to create a foundation for healing. Laura's experience in setting clear boundaries and expectations highlights the courage required to face the truth and the profound freedom it can bring.
Through real-life examples, this conversation illustrates how openness can transform potentially humiliating situations into valuable teaching moments that build trust and resilience. his episode is infused with hope, reminding us all of the transformative impact of perseverance and the lasting benefits of living truthfully amidst life's challenges. This episode dives into the nuances of addressing hidden pain, repairing broken trust, and creating a new foundation for relationships—not by erasing the past but by learning from it.
Whether you’ve faced challenges in your marriage, struggled with trust, or simply want to know that restoration is possible, this episode is for you. It’s an honest conversation that doesn’t shy away from the hard truths but offers hope, practical insights, and a reminder that no matter how deep the wound, healing is always possible.
Connect with Carl and Laura Lentz:
Carl Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/carllentz/
Laura Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lauralentz/
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For information on the Marriage Intensive and other resources, go to jasonandlaurenvallotton.com !
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We're the valetins and we are passionate about people.
Speaker 1:Every human was created for fulfilling relational connection.
Speaker 2:But that's not always what comes easiest.
Speaker 1:We know this because of our wide range of personal experience, as well as our years of working with people.
Speaker 2:So we're going to crack open topics like dating, marriage, family and parenting to encourage, entertain and equip you for a deeply fulfilling life of relational health.
Speaker 1:Welcome back everyone to the Brave Co podcast. This week y'all have a treat because my beautiful wife is sitting next to me and I know you guys sometimes get tired of looking at me, but I will never get tired of looking at her Baby.
Speaker 3:my scoring points yeah, thank you very much Well done.
Speaker 1:Never get tired of looking at her baby. My scoring points, yeah, thank you very much. Well done. Um. So I'm excited, babe. We're doing a collaboration with our other podcast, which is dates, mates and babies with the valetins, and we have some special guests on today we sure do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you guys are in for a treat. Um, some of you might know carl and laura lenz and some of you might not. I don't want to assume that you do. So I'm going to introduce our amazing guests. Laura and Carl are a beautiful married couple with three very beautiful children. For many years, carl and Laura had a powerful ministry out of New York City Hillsong Church. They were the founders and pastors there. We've been so impacted by them. Our church community has been so impacted by their years of work in ministry. Even more, we have so much respect for the work that they've done since 2020, when news of an affair hit mainstream media and obviously caused an incredibly challenging time for their family ended careers, changed the landscape of Hillsong, new York. But honestly, we feel so blessed that this couple, who we've been impacted long before 2020 and even since that they would be with us today and be willing to open up and talk about the journey that they've been on, means a whole lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really does. And I mean I've been in this space for a long time. I've been a pastor at Bethel Church for 20 years. We've been running Braveco for four years. I've just seen so many men in ministries rise and fall, even if we look at our past right, so many great men in our history have just fallen and it's very few people that we watch that get back up, that make amends, that own their mess and begin to rebuild and face the pain right, face the challenges, and that's what we're all doing.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's what we're doing at BraveCo. That's that's what we talk about a lot, even at Dates, mates and Babies is you are our worst days don't define us right but we get a chance to to come back and to heal, to make things right, to grow stronger, whether it's in a marriage or with it's in our families. And so it really, honestly, is such an honor and a privilege to be on here with both of you not having had a personal relationship with you guys before. We have mutual friends that we both dearly love, and we've both been in ministry for a really long time, and so we know at least some of the toll and some of the life that being in ministry takes. But to see what you guys have done, it's admirable and I'm excited to jump in today because I feel like we don't often get to have someone be so vulnerable and honest with not just the mistakes but with where they're at and how they've cleaned up a mess.
Speaker 1:And you guys, we've seen it on your podcast, so we're going to obviously give a chance for our listeners to go and watch your guys' podcast. But I was really shocked a year ago I think it was a year ago, maybe a little bit longer when you guys started turning the lights on and showing up and talking about the process. And, carl, you've been so you've taken so much ownership, at least with what I've heard and watched and been able to explain the process some. And Laura, you've been like man, you've just been a champ, just showing up and talking through it and being honest and raw. So, guys, first and foremost, thank you so much. It means a lot. We appreciate you guys coming on here.
Speaker 2:We sure do.
Speaker 3:It's a pleasure. Thank you guys for doing what you do, and we've been impacted for so long by Bethel in general that it's cool to come full circle even under these circumstances. You know it's. Yeah, we love what you guys have done. One of my favorite memories from New York we had Bill come do a staff retreat and it was the greatest. I mean, I tried to hire him, he tried to get him to stay, but he just is such a legend and he was one of the first people that reached out to me in the worst time and never stopped ever. And you don't forget stuff like that, and I knew that's kind of man he was. But, um, that's that's really. You know. I think it's the fabric of Bethel as well, which is just not to not to vacate people in valleys, and so, yeah, it's our honor to be hanging out with y'all today. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, man. Um, yeah, honestly, it's been such a blessing to grow up in a family like that and we're gonna get into your story. But I also went through an affair in 2007 where my wife left and I mean, my church surrounded me. They just loved me. I remember going to Bill and asking him what do you need me to do? Do you need me to step down? And again, it wasn't like I had an affair. My wife left and I was a single dad for five years and Bill was the first one to say, like man, I love you, just show up, how can I help? Let me jump in on your story and I've watched him. I mean, again, you guys know what it's like to be on the backside of so many different people's stories. I've watched him stick in there, believe in people, love them. People, even to a fault, right?
Speaker 1:Even to like, but it's amazing because of what happens out of that.
Speaker 2:Um.
Speaker 1:I want to ask a question, just starting out. You know, we know that you don't just wake up one day and find yourself in a full blown affair, Right and and I don't, honestly, I don't even know all the details, I don't. I'm not one of those guys, Neither is Lauren that goes and hunts down and listens and watches all all the stuff and tries to figure out. I could almost care less, except for being a part of the solution um, which we, we often are on the backside, but we don't. You know, a lot of people think that affairs happen because it's just so horny, or I just man, that's what lust does, that's what sin does. But you just don't find yourself in a full-blown affair out of nothing, Right? Where did it start, Carl? Like, where did it start for you? How'd you find yourself there?
Speaker 3:We're going to start with the light stuff. So How'd you find yourself there? We're going to start with the light stuff, so that's good to know ahead of time. I think it's really well said. I think the affair you find yourself in is like it's the last piece of a really ugly puzzle and I mean we've went over it so many times. I mean we were talking to a couple about it last night and we'll always do that. We'll always use what was intended to destroy to be something that helps other people. So the way we relate to it is very unique to us and I think I've went back so many times and said, like where did it start? Many times and said like where did it start?
Speaker 3:It started with with me becoming a christian and not necessarily understanding who I was and what goes into what goes into who you are as a human. So I said on our own podcast you know you hear that question like what would you do if you could talk to your 22, 23 year old self? Which is really like I got saved out of a pretty, you know typical college life. You know a lot of sex, a lot of partying, just a lot of doing what I wanted to do, got radically saved and began to try to change my life. But didn't, we don't know. We didn't know then what we all know now about mental health and about trauma and about patterns and about brainwaves. And so back then it's just more of like, hey, I got saved, I'm going to pray and get filled with the Holy Spirit and I'm just going to freaking go and everything's going to be fine and if I do have an issue it's a sin issue and that's always pray-away-able Totally and I'm just going to go. And so there are little patterns that I brought into my faith that now I know better. But back then I didn't know. And in prayer, prayer won't unwind. You know dysfunction, and I just didn't know how to get to the bottom of it because I didn't know what it was. So there were moments as I looked through my trajectory that led me to the day of Armageddon, where our life changed so much that it was like a cycle that gets bigger and bigger and bigger and I had so many opportunities to change it.
Speaker 3:I now see that, but during it you lie to yourself first and the most often, and then you start lying to other people. So the lie I told myself for years was a combination of I'm going to fix this and I'm going to fix it before it's so bad. That was a lie. I told myself a lot. I also told myself I can't get the help that I need. That wasn't true, wow. I told myself that there's a way to get through this on my terms, and you find this out in rehab when you talk to other addicts. We all have this glorious plan of getting help With our time like. What I'm going to do is I'm going to gracefully get to a place where I can bow out, go get some help, come back, and that day never shows up.
Speaker 3:So where it began was just deep seated pain and sin and trauma that I didn't know what to do with. And these are not excuses. These are just reasons. There is no excuse for breaking your marriage vows. There is no excuse for mismanaging a platform that's supernaturally anointed and given to you and all that stuff is real.
Speaker 3:But we just learned a lot about who we are as people. I've learned a lot about who we are as people. I've learned a lot about who I am, and Laura had no idea who she was marrying. As we all know, in marriage, the funniest day in life is the marriage ceremony, where you're committing, you've done all the pre-marriage stuff. You're like now we're ready, you don't have a freaking clue who you're marrying, and we often laugh. I'm like if she would have known, looking across that aisle, if our life would have included what it has, I don't think we'd change it, but we probably would have waited a little longer, that's for sure.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's just, we haven't given up, we didn't let it kill us. And now we're in a season where you can't I wouldn't trade it for anything and that's hard to say, because you don't have to go through what we went through to get to where we are. You do not, and that's kind of why we've done anything public in this last chapter. This podcast is literally to make that one point, which is look, if we've been through some stuff, if we can help you before you get here, we're going to do that. And because you don't have to go through your house burning down to fireproof it, you can just do it before a flame ever hits it. And so that's what our life consists of now is moving on, getting through it, healing, and we've got enough space from that event that chapter, I should say where we can definitely know. These couple things we do know for sure can help anybody, and that's kind of what we're busy doing.
Speaker 1:So good, that's just. I love it. You know I grew up in I think I grew up in church in the 80s. You know in where the name it, claim it, pray it, speak it. You know just tons of hope and there's a spot for that right Like there's definitely a spot for for the God is all you need pray about it. And I think, growing up, why I got into counseling and emotional health so much was because of this. This exact Is.
Speaker 1:I got tired of watching really great people and it's very confusing. Growing up too, you watch these really great people who have genuine, incredible relationships with God and I think that's what a lot of people don't understand is like man, they mean well, they show up to their family, they mean well, but then you just watch the car go off the rails and after a while you start thinking like what in the heck's the problem? And it started like around 15, 16, 17,. I started to think man, the church is missing something. Yeah, because growing up in a home where I'm seeing demons cast out like literally that's how my parents practiced in our home. It was traumatizing, it was crazy, and some of the stories people don't believe some of the stories.
Speaker 3:Like heaven forbid you just had a bad day at your house.
Speaker 1:It's like it's just a bad day.
Speaker 3:No, it's a demon, yeah.
Speaker 1:And in our home everything was a demon. Yeah, it's true. And then you watch the hyper-spiritual people who don't do anything unless God says right, I don't do anything. That was where the prophetic movement kind of started and went for a long time, but no one was really pushing emotional health. And so Christians get into the spot where people get, into the spot where we don't realize I'm not the one that actually wired me. I didn't choose my home life. I didn't choose how I was fed. I didn't choose what was taught about me. I didn't choose the demographic in which I grew up in.
Speaker 1:Like they say, addiction starts in our lives when we can no longer bear being present. Right, so when, yeah, so when you can no longer bear being present, that's when you have to medicate pain. So many people don't understand that you, you weren't built on your own, you weren't the one that came in and decided whether you had a connected home or disconnected, and we always bond to whatever our environment was. And so I just think so many men and women don't realize that the addiction in their life started before they are ever even present, that they were alive before they ever even aware that they were in pain, and that becomes our normal right. And so then, when you get saved, you do, you get saved and you and you just think, like man, God's going to take care of all this stuff.
Speaker 1:He, I said this prayer and I really meant it and I did these things and I really meant it, but I don't know how to change the inner man and I think something's wrong with me, like I think that I'm either I either need to pray more or there's something inherently wrong with me not realizing, like, dude, you gotta, you gotta rewire yourself, you gotta go back and deal with the trauma you have to. The way that you armored up and protected yourself. Now, when you get older, that's how you survived. Now, when we get older, that's the thing that crushes us and we don't realize that. And, man, it's super painful.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm realizing, as you said, that there is a big difference. Now I realize of understanding grace in such a way where you're already accepted. If that's true, then why would we have issues talking about all the stuff? That is hard. I don't think we understand grace in this way at all because most of the time people get saved, they get really busy changing their lives and feeling bad about how they're not measuring up and like I'm not a good enough Christian. All this stuff that points to you not understanding what grace is.
Speaker 3:So, on the other side of this, it's fun to sit down with people and go hey, by the way, what if you could never get better? Do you think you'd be just as valuable? Nobody answers it correctly, and because our impetus for getting better is typically so, god will love me more. If that's off the table, what would life look like Now? It's like oh yeah, so I've got some sexual habits that are horrible, so God will love me more. If that's off the table, what would life look like now? It's a oh yeah, so I've got some sexual habits that are horrible, and let me bring those to the table because I'm already in. God loves me. It's going to help me get through this.
Speaker 3:So why on earth would I be hiding stuff if I'm already in? It's not like God didn't know what I brought to the table. It's not like heaven shocked two months into your Christianity like we didn't know you had these things. So I think it's you know. I love what you've committed your life to, which is emotional and mental health, because I think it's the biggest miss in the local church over the years by far. Absolutely no close second. And it's not even a malicious miss, it's just. We just know better, so we should do better. Now you know, if you're a part of church now that doesn't focus on this stuff, you got to go to a different one because we have the proof on the board that the way we've done it for a long time has caused a lot of carnage and a lot of pain, and a lot of it's avoidable.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So good. Yeah, you know, we, in our work with married couples, we work with a lot of married couples and in our work with married couples we talk a lot about connection being the thing that is the most important to protect connect. You don't wake up in your marriage one day and all of a sudden everything's hit the fan. I mean, yes, to some degree it hits the fan on a level that you couldn't have imagined. But typically married couples have created a normal culture in their marriage dynamic that perpetuates, even unknowingly perpetuates, disconnection in certain areas.
Speaker 2:I'm curious for you, laura, on that great and terrible day of awakening where you're like, wow, it has hit the fan. Did you know before? You knew that there was a problem? And what about your connection? Do you feel like you know, if you're sitting down with a married couple and you're like, hey, listen, in these first few years of your marriage, here's what you should protect, here's what it looks like to you know? What are some of those things for you that you, in hindsight, you're kind of realizing this was going on in our marriage dynamic and it didn't help things.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and it didn't help things. Yeah, I would say, firstly, I didn't know anything, except that I knew that he wasn't okay and I couldn't. When you're trying to talk to someone that isn't healthy, again, they're just going to lie to you, and so, for me, I would try to get any sort of conversation, or it would be really hard to get to the bottom of anything with him, and so that would be the first thing. And I do remember in 2020, it was a couple of months before everything hit the fan and I just remember, like going to God and I was just like you, whatever is going on with him, get it out, because I can't deal with this anymore. And it was.
Speaker 4:It wasn't that it was. It wasn't that we were like at head with each other or, you know, anything was very drastically wrong, but there was just a. There seemed to be like a, a leveling up of just intensity, of just like. I knew he was stressed, I knew he was going through stuff pressure, church stuff but he would never talk about it really with me. So I'd be like and then it would.
Speaker 4:You know, they take it out on you. When there's stress and pressure or whatever's going on in a man's brain, it's usually taken out on the person that's closest to them, right? So so for me, I just remember going God, whatever's going on, get it out of him. Or I'm out like I was just done, and um, so a couple months later, that prayer did definitely come to fruition. Um, and I'm super grateful four years later that it did. Um, yeah, but when you're it, you just I think you're just like, okay, it's just a season, or like you're just stressed, things are going to get better. You know you're in this marriage together. Let's just figure it out. So I just, yeah, I don't really remember anything.
Speaker 3:I mean I can say what she's not saying. If you're married to a liar, it's very hard to figure out what's going on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so right if you use the the illustration of something hitting the fan, uh well, something hit the fan every day and you learn how to make sense of it. As a liar, you're able to, um, you know, stay on a pattern. So none of your gifts go away. If you're struggling with hidden addictions and like, in fact, sometimes they get enhanced. And so there were so many moments where and laura is not, um, she's not a, a pushover woman, she's extraordinarily discerning, like she has a prophetic gift that is, that is, you know, spectacular. But over the years, you can only come to somebody's face so many times without it damaging. And so if she says, hey, something's up, hey, I see this, hey, over and over again. So my only response unless you're like a malicious jerk which I don't ever feel like I was you hate yourself more than you hate either. You're doing so. My only recourse was to push back and stay as far away from her as I could.
Speaker 3:Intimacy wise, and as you know all the married couples watching, you can have a marriage that works without intimacy. You can have the kids doing well, you can function where no one's going to know, but you know you're not together, you know you're all. And there was a stretch in our marriage where I couldn't bear to look at myself, let alone look at her. And so, over over the course of a couple years, as it got worse. For me, that would be our story of like it's no longer is it hitting the fan, it's it's like what kind of umbrella does she need in the house today? And that's what you start doing. You start preparing for it. Rather than like so it wasn't, like the last one was a bigger thing, it was like, oh, this actually makes sense. Now it's been hitting me, it's been there and it's hard to deal with. You know, one of the consequences of what I did was dealing with narratives that aren't true and meaning. It's not because, like, you want your name to be look better, it's because you don't want people to get the wrong info, and so when you hear stories about your own situation, you're like it wasn't. This isn't a situation where Laura knew what was going on. Like that's not who she is, it was.
Speaker 3:I was very, very good at this. I was a very great addict. I was a great layered manipulator when I had to be with her. I didn't see it like that at the time, but that's the truth, and so it's been encouraging for us to be able to tell sometimes I think wives like this isn't on you, you're not, you didn't miss stuff, like you had to survive.
Speaker 3:And I guess we've talked about like the only thing she did say one time if you don't get this fixed, I'm going to call Brian and Bobby right now, type stuff, and it was like okay, well, I'm too good on the spin of that, so I'm able to take what she said and spin that and present this photo picture of what I'm going to do, but other than just flat out leave me because of what she saw, she did what I think any wife in her shoes would have done, which is continue to trust me.
Speaker 3:And that's hard, that's hard to repair, because over and over again it's like, hey, I'm calling this out and I'm going I know it's not that, it's this and here's what I'm doing about it and just keep it moving, keep it fluid, keep it going. So there's no pretty answer for it, like if there's people watching and there's like a wife who suspects something, I wish I could say it's not a big deal, it's probably a huge deal, but you can do nothing with a man that will not be honest, nothing that's right, yeah, wow and so it comes down to the leader of the household, which I am, and I didn't lead it with integrity for portions of our marriage, and I like the way you guys framed it before, because people act like, when a marriage explodes, like you had a bad marriage.
Speaker 3:We actually had aspects that were phenomenal. We love each other, we had beautiful moments, but beautiful moments can't stand against deadly toxic anchors.
Speaker 3:You can have a million beautiful moments, but if the thing is founded on something that's broken, it doesn't matter. You're building that thing on sand. So she wouldn't say some of that stuff. But the truth is she was extremely discerning, weird, righteous way. It was vindicating for her to be able to have some of that come out, because my one of my prayers was always I don't want to damage her connection to the holy spirit, and that was something I had to carry all the time. And there was a moment there where I think it could have got to the point where you were. So you know, lied to it and pushed down that you started to question do you hear from God? And that to me, was, for me, it was like suicide. Um, those, those are the moments I look back on and remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's the good, I'll get it together. Hold on, let me just uh you're doing good, man, yeah yeah, yeah, it's in your eyes. There's no, there's no hope with my eyes.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah, your your number one job as a husband is to protect that spiritual landscape of this woman that you are allowed by heaven to help protect and cultivate and release into something greater. Me, out of all the stuff that was always the thing that was the hardest for me to deal with on a day to day basis was, like it's getting so bad where she's questioning her relationship with with the holy spirit and that that was hard.
Speaker 3:Um, I don't think about it often, as you can tell, because I, even going back into that bag, I'm like why did I? Why did I say that? Um, but that's the truth. I think in, in and it was the saving grace as well. So, so, on the other side of it, it was like I remember feeling like I had an opportunity to help repair that, to say, hey, now that this is out, here's where you were right, here's where you were right, here's where you were right, here's where you were right. Not only are you not wrong, you were so right. And here's, it was almost like I couldn't wait to.
Speaker 3:It was this weird dynamic of like this is the worst thing ever. But thank God, it's over. Thank God, just for me to be able to tell you on your way out, as you divorced me, that you were right and you knew what you were talking about. Don't ever doubt God's voice. Don't ever doubt your gifts, because you were right. That would have been enough for me. I could have you know. I told her initially I was like you should divorce, divorce me. Just know, I'm going to move wherever you move, I'm going to live at whatever street you live at for the rest of my life. I would divorce you too, but I want you to know that I I'll see you every day.
Speaker 3:I'm going to get a tent and I'm going to put it out, you and your new husband, whoever he is. You just tell him I'm going to be around. This isn't on, this is on me, and I don't want anybody else I don't it's amazing yeah
Speaker 2:yeah I feel like you just described that deep reality that it is. The truth sets us free and for her, even though the truth was really bad news, yeah, yeah, there is freedom in the truth. Freedom in the truth, and I think you're right. When you're dealing with a liar, whether it's a spouse or a family member or a child, whatever it is, you can get into those spots where you yourself feel crazy. You feel crazy because what do I have left to do but to trust? And then you wind up in this crazy making place where you're not sure what's up or down, and that truth moment.
Speaker 2:There's so much freedom in that truth and, laura, what you were able, the strength of your inner person, to be able to in that moment of truth.
Speaker 2:Now, I don't pretend to know what those initial hours, days, weeks and months were like, but obviously you did not leave him. I don't pretend to know what those initial hours, days, weeks and months were like, but obviously you did not leave him and you decided really you're the one that opened up the opportunity to go on a trust rebuilding journey, which in any married couple that's walked through infidelity or even porn addiction, anything that's been hidden. Infidelity or even porn addiction, anything that's been hidden. There's so much breakdown of trust. That's where a lot of couples get stuck. They actually do not know how to trust again. And I would love to hear, Laura, you talk about what did you do in order to proactively start, proactively start risking trust with this man again and I know that, carl, you had a lot of intentional moments too in actually extending that heart again towards her that she would either trust or not trust. I would love to hear about that from you guys, because I know people get stuck there.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing we get asked honestly is like how can I trust him again, like how do I move past this? And for me it was firstly a lot of therapy and getting the right tools that I needed to set up my life where I could allow that trust to be built again. And so from the very beginning it was very much like okay, this is what I need from you, this is what I expect, and so we kind of built from that. He was incredibly proactive in his healing process as well, so he made that really easy for me to trust again. I didn't have to question a lot of things.
Speaker 4:There was obviously some things that you know and there's always a lot of triggers in the very beginning and like just anything you know, like anything could just throw you off, but he was so self-aware of those as well. So he I mean now that we're four years in and we've worked with a few couples and stuff like that the amount of work that he has done is incredible and I know it's not easy, like you're not only dealing with your own addiction and your own recovery program that you're doing. You're then having to build trust and, you know, build a marriage again. So that's a lot and he's done that so incredibly well and I know it hasn't been easy, but the things that I think he did were just always so, because he was such a quiet, shut down, didn't talk about a lot of things, like when it came to us, or just his life. He did a complete 180 with that.
Speaker 4:So that was the biggest thing. So, whatever the things that were in our relationship, it went completely the other way, and so that was easy for me to start to build trust when he did that. If he didn't do that, I definitely I would have been like I'm out, you know, yeah, that I definitely I would have been like I'm out, you know, because of these everyday him building and doing the littlest things to build trust. That is why I'm able to stand here today, four years later. Um, to the point of, you know, we were talking about it a couple of months ago in the car.
Speaker 4:I was like I don't even remember what it's like to not trust you Like wow, and that was actually shocking for me to even be able to say that, cause I you know, when you're first in it, you can't. I don't remember a lot, but I do remember that I'm like I am never going to get out of this. I'm never not going to think about this. This pain is so much that I will never, I'll never be able to live the same way. So to be able to look at that four years later, I think it's just a big pat on the back for both of us, for us doing our work and our healing individually, but also together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have a funny. We always tell people it's a lot easier to get a divorce. That's our opening line.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:You're going to throw it out there, definitely.
Speaker 2:In the short term. Go the other way.
Speaker 3:It's so much easier to start fresh with the person. So I think, Easy but hard.
Speaker 4:They're both hard yeah.
Speaker 3:What I mean by that is, I think, what we found, and, jason, you've been doing this with couples. You guys have both walked many a journey with people and our standard is unrealistic for people, and we say that up front because we only know our experience and ours was so bad and took these particular things that you don't have to do it. I just don't know how to help you Because, for me, the number one thing I'm looking for with a betrayer is how much control do you still have?
Speaker 3:Like I gave up every key to my life that I could possibly find, even keys she didn't ask for, just say like, hey, this is like the when we've seen it go on bad, go bad. It's when the dude who's committed all of these betrayals but still kind of calling the shots it does. I've never seen it work. Maybe maybe someone's out there like well, I called the shots and it worked Good for you.
Speaker 3:I found one of the best ways that I could um, I mean, they teach you this. And I went to a beautiful rehab and really, really gave me a foundation and a headstart, like I just I can't overstate how big of a deal it was but I was told for a long time do the opposite of everything you think and feel every single day. So if you feel like your answer is right, what if it's wrong, if you feel like it? So I just started doing that and then you never come back. So all of a sudden your brain groove has changed. So it's like for me it was as simple as like. Even at rehab, you know, one of my therapists was like hey, you know you have a lot of feedback, how about you don't have any feedback? Again, I'm like, well, that's not authentic to me. And she's like, yeah, exactly, how's authentic to you working for you?
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I'm at rehab in the middle of the Arizona desert because I destroyed my life. So how authentic me goes is very good.
Speaker 2:Right, you tell me.
Speaker 3:You tell me Exactly and then you find out that's. A huge trait of an addict is to always give feedback on stuff. And they have this moment in the beginning where they're like, hey, all of you are going to have so many ways that we can do this rehab better. You guys are all CEOs and you're this and you're that Also, don't forget. You effed up your life.
Speaker 3:So, how about you leave the rehab to us and don't give us any constructive feedback? We're not interested in anything you have to say, and you can just see all of us.
Speaker 3:Riving, totally it's the most important thing in the world. How could you not want, want it, and so to relearn some of that and then never go back to it is, and you said that truth sets you free. I also think truth is addictive in the best way. And yes, and once you, once you get on that side of the journey, you can only talk to other people that believe the same stuff about truth, but you can tell right away, like you tell yeah, and so once you turn that page, I think it's pretty powerful. But our trust, our trust thing is, it's a trust, is a funny thing, it's a choice every day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and it's my job to put evidence out for her every day to choose. And if I don't fill that evidence table up, like what kind of idiot am I Like? There will never be a day where I don't have to provide evidence. You can trust me again.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's a good revelation for, I think, men. To get early Like there is not never going to be a destination, it's progressive. There is no like point where you get to in a marriage rebuild, where you're like, hey, how long do I have to do this? It's been, I've been, I've been sober for a freaking year. What do you want from me? How about sober for a few decades? How about? That It'll get me points for, not for a year.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and so you have to make sure the scale is correct because you know a lot of times that gets brought into a new chapter of marriage. It's like, no, I'm in. The scale Scale is wrong. I don't give me credit for like and I appreciate when people encourage me a lot and I'm like, yes, it's actually the lowest level of expectation is is staying true to your marriage vow.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you didn't screw everything up, congratulations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, this is, this is such gold and I know you want to. I know you have something you want to ask. No, I just have.
Speaker 2:I want to tag something off before you switch subjects so this is just gold, because two things we always say to people truth is not built in the absence of mistakes. It's built in how you clean up a mess, and you guys have perfected the art of, and there is an art to cleaning up a mess, and there's so many components. It's who do you trust more than yourself? It's you know, yeah, are you letting go of all of that control? Are you willing to completely let go of control? Are you willing to so validate her pain and her experience that whether or not you're understood in it doesn't matter? Right now, you know just so many elements to the art of cleaning up a mess that you guys have perfected.
Speaker 2:And the most amazing thing to me is that you did it in four years, which I just want people to hear. Like, if you're married to somebody for 65 years of your life, how short is four years of hard work, the payoff for your family, for your marriage? Like if you could be at this rock bottom and climb out with so much trust that you don't remember when you didn't trust him. Four years, it's worth every ounce of energy, every ounce. It's honestly phenomenal and should be a signpost of hope for people beyond hope.
Speaker 3:Thank you for saying this. I think it's also akin to when people become a Christian and they struggle, maybe year two and they're like I'm done with this and you're like so you spent 30 years being in it and you want to give God. Two years and you're out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's very similar to that on this marriage. I spent at least 18 years of our 21 years of marriage building dysfunctional, bad habits. So to me, scale is not even fair. It's like God's just so faithful. It's like it, god's just so faithful. It's like it shouldn't. There should be, there should be a different weight, but that's, I think that's the difference between having, you know, a relationship with Jesus and not in this journey. I mean you can get it done, you can repair your marriage.
Speaker 3:If you're not a Christian, people do it all the time. I just I commend them because I don't know where that strength comes from. I don't know where that grace comes from. I don't know. I mean we probably. I think God's still breathing on it for people who don't give him the glory for it, but for us to know we can't pull this off. So it's a real easy thing Either God shows up or we get a divorce. It's not hard. I'm going to do my best, she's going to do her best, but our best is not good enough. So for all the people who don't subscribe to our faith, I'm like you're, just, I don't know where you're getting your stuff from, because we're only here, by the grace of God.
Speaker 3:There is no other explanation, there's just none. So yeah it's interesting to look at it from that angle.
Speaker 1:When we work with couples I mean, I've been counseling for 20 years just a long time and inevitably couples come in and either you know she's had an affair or he's had an affair it happens to both infidelity and couples are so disheartened. Obviously it's. It's. We're not going to build the old marriage back. Anybody want the old marriage. Nobody wants the old marriage. Okay, nobody in this room wants the old marriage. The old marriage is crap. Right, that didn't work. We tried our best, everybody tried their best.
Speaker 1:We're going to build a brand new marriage and it really is incredible what happens when both people are willing to jump in the arena and to work hard and to rebuild something they've never done before. And that's the important thing that I want people to see, Like the Laura and the Carl that people are looking at, they didn't exist before. This isn't a real rebuilt marriage. This is a brand new marriage. They are experiencing each other and knowing each other in a way that they have never known each other before. And for starters, laura, like, honestly, so much props goes to you. I mean, people look at Carl and go man, what a man. And I do. I have a bunch of respect for what Carl did, a ton.
Speaker 1:But it takes you being brave enough to stay in the game, regardless of what this guy says to you and does, because he's a con artist. I mean, he's conned you for 18 years and I worked with a couple who the first affair happened on their honeymoon. She just didn't know about it and it happened for 30 years. When they came into my office he'd had hundreds and hundreds of massage parlor experiences and when they first sit down in the chair, you just never know how it's going to go. They're sitting on the couch across from me and she asks me what can I do? She wasn't a pushover. She's asking me what can I do? What area can I grow in? Because I had just handed him a whole bunch of this is where you're at, this is what you can do.
Speaker 1:But she continually asked this question what can I do? And although they didn't know if they were going to get a divorce, I do. And although they weren't, they didn't know if they were going to get a divorce. He wasn't living in the same house. It was that question that, I think, transformed everything, because he was in such a place of brokenness that he was willing to do whatever. But often you see the women or the victim armor up a whole bunch, I don't want to trust anymore, I don't want to lean in, I don't want to lean in, I don't want to press in, and so, man, I just think there's so. I have so much respect for what you've done and the journey that you've been on, laura, and being willing to show up in the relationship day in and day out, like it's phenomenal. Yeah, I'm a bit curious. How did you guys handle this with your kids? What was that process like?
Speaker 4:Yeah, oh boy, that was a big one because the kids were 16, 14, and 10 or 11 at the time, and so they were very aware, obviously, of everything going on, because it, firstly, it was public, so for them it was hard, it was hard to hide any of that, um, and then people are awful on social media and stuff like that.
Speaker 4:So there was a lot of that happening that we had to protect them from or try to on their social media. And our second daughter at the time, so a month before everything blew up, our daughter, our second daughter. She was 14 at the time. She had had a suicide attempt.
Speaker 3:I had one of my suicide attempt.
Speaker 4:So she was in a mental health hospital for six, eight weeks at the time and I was like this is the worst thing that's ever happened in my life and then this happens a month later.
Speaker 3:So I was just like she's still in there. Yeah, While she was in.
Speaker 4:She was still in there. This all comes out and it was COVID, so we couldn't. We had to do the call like he had to tell her what was happening over a Zoom call.
Speaker 4:Wow, so we couldn't be with her. So that was awful all by itself. But then dealing with a 16-year-old and then our son, who was 10 at the time, he was just confused because, you know, we didn't give him a lot of information at the time of what was happening. He just knew that we were moving, you know, and that dad wasn't working at church anymore. So there was that, and then I don't know. You can go from here.
Speaker 3:I don't remember a lot yeah, it's a beautiful trauma. Trauma amnesia is not always your enemy.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 3:No, I think the overarching thing I would say about our kids is I guess there's other ways to do it. So this comes with that precursor. I don't necessarily agree with the other ways because it's the only way we know, but we were given some really good wisdom, which is. The question is like what's most resourceful for our family? And what is most resourceful for us was for us to be as honest as they could bear for their age. So my two girls they got the whole thing. Roman was on a journey of that and even that sucked because it didn't play out as we would have wanted. But with the girls it's still going on. Like, I'm still checking in, like, hey, like, and I use it constantly. So I was talking with one of my daughters about a guy that she likes and any.
Speaker 3:The way that we redeem a lot of this is by using it as a weapon for us on our turn that's right so it's like, hey, that's right, you're this guy who and let me go back to something I said I wasn't saying that for 18 years I was, you know, doing the wrong thing. I'm saying that's when my patterns began. So, um, yeah, but um, she was, you know, she likes a guy and I was like there's an area of concern with this guy and it's his. You know his class attendance, and let me tell you where this leads. Like if you can't be committed, if you can't be committed to class.
Speaker 2:Well, can't be committed to class.
Speaker 3:well, you remember what happened with me. Some of that same discipline comes to roost in this area, so I'm using it at all times, especially with my son, like me and Roman would. And now the power is gone because we own it. So it's like hey, man, I know that you don't want to take the trash out.
Speaker 3:I get that. I know that you don't want to take the trash out. I get that. But that desire to get up when you forgot to do it, when it's cold outside, to go do it because it's the right thing to do. Someday you're going to be in a hotel room and you're not going to feel like getting off at the floor. You should get off because there'll be a woman in that elevator who wants you to go to a different floor. The same muscle you're going to use right now to get out of your bed and go do what you're supposed to do will be that same muscle someday that you don't look to the right and you refuse to not get off on your floor. It's the same thing, son.
Speaker 3:So we're able to flip this thing that was supposed to be the death of us and make it a student. So I like to torment hell with that and say you know, we didn't die. Not only that, I'm going to use the very thing that should be humiliating, and it was for sure. But I don't relate to it as a humiliation any longer because I'm able to look at it and say this is going to be a picture of health for my son. I'm going to stand on top of this thing. So I think, with our kids, we advise couples and we have dear friends who have done the opposite, and the runs are on the board. Like you, Jason I don't know if you've heard this phrase for a minute there you can't save face and save your ass at the same time.
Speaker 1:You have to choose.
Speaker 3:And there are couples who try to stay fake.
Speaker 4:It's true, and you want to tell them.
Speaker 3:your face is already destroyed. So by saving face, you are robbing your kids of, I think, potentially resources in the future to never make these same mistakes, and so by giving them airbrushed versions of it, kids are smart. They are way, way more perceptive and discerning than we realize. So even if you don't tell them, they're going to make up their own story. I talked to a dad recently and I said you know, it's been probably 15 years since you've talked to your you know, since you haven't addressed this, just so you know. He's like well, I think most of my kids kind of know what's happened. I said fair, fair, who told them? Cause, it wasn't you. So you've allowed your kids for 15 years to build their own story about what happened.
Speaker 3:I think, that's fair to them and he got off the phone and went and handled his business because he'd never seen it like that. But that's the truth, like if you didn't tell your kids, who told them? But you want social media to describe it. You want some weird aunt to give them, whatever it is.
Speaker 1:So I think for us we're not having that like this might be.
Speaker 3:We're going to tell you every single thing you need to know. That's what matters, that's good, and because truth is the thing.
Speaker 4:Truth is the thread and I think I mean the girls now being 20 and 18, 18. Yeah, they have such a close relationship with him now because they he was so honest with them in what they needed to know but has continually been with them, and so they know they can trust their dad. Yeah, when this, this should have and could have gone a really different way for my kid, it's true, that's right. See how close they are. Like they call him you know we were laughing the other day. He gets the calls at like 10 o'clock at night like dad, what do I do with this? And dad, this, and I'm like this is your, this is your season to shine. I did my like toddler. You know all of that stage being a mom.
Speaker 4:Now he's the guy that they go to with all the questions and all the things that like they don't know how to navigate this situation or relationship or whatever it is, and they're, like they're so close to him because they just have such an open relationship and I really love that.
Speaker 3:And I'll say this in case I feel compelled to say it to any dad listening or a guy who's been in my shoes it's never too late to see that thing explode. With God's grace, ever. I don't care if you have violated every trust with your family and you're on the other side of it and you're like today is the day to see if this is real and you will never be sorry. You were honest a day in your life and even if you are estranged from your kids or you kind of made mistakes, like it's never, ever too late ever. The day that you, you know, get honest, that's the day God blesses. So it's been 20 years, if it's been two months, like it's never too late for anybody, ever, yeah it's true.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's the gospel, right. Like that is, that's the beauty of the gospel. We were talking earlier about grace and people really understanding and not understanding grace and like grace is so amazing because when we come into the kingdom, we don't come in all cleaned up, and I think we have theology. Our differences is in our theology. Right, we come in and we all think that we're coming in dirty, but we pretend like we came in clean and like we worked ourselves into the kingdom. But it's so awesome when you get to come in really as you are and allow God to see you and allow yourself to get fully cleaned up and then allow your family to see you and to love you and now you've really built that bond, you've built that connection. You have a place for life to happen.
Speaker 1:I think when your family sees that right, like we've done that so much in our life with with my story and with Lauren's story and you know we blended a family um in 2011 and it's tough man, it's tough to my kids were three um. What? Three, five and seven when my divorce happened? Yeah, three, five and seven.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:And then, when she came in, the kids were five years older.
Speaker 2:They were 12, nine and six when we got married. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, but constantly being able to do what you just said, or not hiding the truth, or not hiding the facts, or giving you what is healthy to give you. You can ask any question you want to. You can talk to any kids that you need to. I'm not trying to save myself. You can call her Lauren, mom or Lauren or, as long as it's respectful, you can call her whatever you want. And watching the kids in the family go through the hardest time of their life and completely not just rebuild trust, but now they know. Okay, I'm in a culture where I can make mistakes. I'm in a culture where I can be honest.
Speaker 1:I'm in a culture where I don't have to know it all. I'm in a culture where grace is abundant. We can receive grace from the Lord. And, in closing, one of the most beautiful things at BraveCo is we always tell men your job is to weaponize your story. You take the darkest, deepest, gnarliest places in your life and you use those to get other people free. I had an incredible father, my dad, when I was very young 15, he said to me one day I want you to make all of your mistakes at home, because you have mom and I here to help Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and when I was really young I was addicted to masturbation. At 10 years old I didn't realize how much anxiety I had. I struggled with OCD for a long time and I had oral sex at 12 with a guy friend of mine and found pornography at 14. And it was all those things. But the transformational piece in my life is my dad knew about every single one of those. I would come home and talk to him about it. I didn't even know any different. My dad would ask me pointed questions is my dad knew about every single one of those. I would come home and talk to him about it. I didn't even know any different. I just like my dad would ask me pointed questions. He would say you know, hey, do you know what pornography was? Or do you know what masturbation is?
Speaker 1:I almost fell out of the car the first time he asked me and I broke out in sweat and I just wanted to leave. But because he was so good at accepting me right where I was and jumping in with me and loving me through that, that's the kingdom and that's a healthy marriage and that's what we're all trying to model for our kids and for the people that we're loving and serving and ministering to is. Life isn't about doing it perfect. Life isn't about putting your best face on and climbing to the top of some proverbial ladder. Life is about putting your full effort in coming as you are right, holding a high standard. It's not that we should live way down here. Holding a high standard and showing up, being authentic and really, really allowing yourself to be loved and to love each other, and so-.
Speaker 3:That's beautifully said. Let me say this because you, lauren, I know you guys. That was so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that vulnerably.
Speaker 3:I think I'm realizing as we're talking, like I think sometimes our therapist gets the best of us and God gets the rest. And why on earth? Like because when you really get deep into therapy, you look forward to your flaws, because you're like I can't wait until Tuesday to bring this to the table and go. What's wrong here? Why wouldn't we be like that with the god that saved you? Knowing all of that, it's like I gotta get my therapist. Then I'm gonna go to church, I'm going to my prayer time more ready for god.
Speaker 3:Like, imagine people felt that kind of freedom to be that open and vulnerable with their relationship with God. I think it would be the difference between life and death for so many people, and that would be my submission is for people to use that same. If you're vulnerable with your therapist, why don't you feel like that with God? There could be a race misappropriation that someone has seeded into you that you do not get, and if you root that thing out now, my therapist is beautiful she's, I mean, I love her, but I have a very open relationship with God too. So she's a bonus. She's not like the. You know, no this. Why would I be afraid to come to God with the grittiest, ugliest, most embarrassing thing? Why am I so ready to do that with the therapist when she's not going to save my life, she's not going to die for me, she's not going to, like you know, wash me clean.
Speaker 3:But so I'm realizing, as we're talking, maybe there's something to be said to people who still feel hesitant with God and say just try it out. It's like see what happens. Is your eternity going to shift? If you were like, hey, god already knows. So I just imagine you going home to your dad in that beautiful scenario. Just the freedom to fail in front of him is because you knew that he loved you. So if you know that God loves you, why? I mean I look at my own life and I go. I mean, for so many years as a minister, so good at telling other people that this is an open house, god is ready for you. But in my own life it's just there's a better way to do it, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well.
Speaker 1:It's the greatest gift that we can give one another.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Is. You don't have to hide around me.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And you get all of me.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know that there's a better way to live, and to me, like that is the version of courage, right?
Speaker 1:Brene Brown says courage is the ability to tell your story with your whole heart, being willing to bury your imperfection. And I think that when we're talking about marriage, when we're talking about God, when we're talking about our family and our kids, it's that it's being able to show up wholeheartedly every single day and to not settle with the stuff that's bad, to face those with courage and and to get real help to work at it, like you guys are doing every single day. Right, like I'm going to show up one thing that you said I'm going to show up every day and provide that proof for her to trust me. You're going to show up every day and and be present with your kids and your family. And so, guys, we just we do, we just thank you so much for this gift of coming on here and and for turning it around I know you didn't do that for us, but for for showing it and being willing to jump on the podcast. It means a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sure does. Yeah, the, the. The prayer that I have in my heart for anybody watching is just the excuse of hopelessness in any area of of your life is gone. It's gone out the window. And that's the power of a testimony the standard is raised, and so, for people that are struggling and for people that feel like there is a reason to be without hope, this is the testimony that you need in order to say actually, no excuses, it's possible, turn around as possible, and not just for you, but the beauty of how you have let your story become a strength for your family instead of the opposite, that is as much a testimony as the restoration of a marriage, and that's what's going to last. That's legacy. So well done you guys Well done and thank you for sharing.
Speaker 3:You guys are awesome. Yeah, total pleasure. So thank you for having us. Thank you for doing what you do for so many people. It's making a difference, so thank you for having us.
Speaker 1:Appreciate it. Appreciate it All right, brave Co-Men. Hopefully this podcast blessed you. I mean, I send it to your friends if you loved it. Otherwise, have an incredible week.
Speaker 4:Stay brave out there.