Dates, Mates and Babies with the Vallottons
Dates, Mates and Babies with the Vallottons
112. Rethinking Education with Dr. Tyler Thigpen
The public school system is broken. Too many kids feel left behind, uninspired, and stuck in a one-size-fits-all model that doesn’t prepare them for real life—or real relationships. As a dad and leader, Jason believes we need a radical shift. That’s why he sat down with Dr. Tyler Thigpen, an education innovator, to explore a new approach—one that fosters independence, critical thinking, and emotional intelligence.
In this episode, Jason and Tyler unpack why the system is failing, what’s working in learner-centered models, and how parents can take the lead. These new environments don’t just teach facts—they shape identity, build resilience, and equip kids for healthy, whole lives.
If you care about how your kids are learning and growing, this episode is for you. Let’s raise a generation ready for both life and love.
More about Dr. Thigpen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thigpentyler/
Tyler grew up in Georgia and has worked in innovative district, private, and charter schools, as well as statewide and national nonprofits. Tyler is co-founder and CEO of The Forest School: An Acton Academy in Trilith, The Forest School Online, and the Institute for Self-Directed Learning, Academic Director at the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education, and Guest Lecturer at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Formerly, Tyler was partner at Transcend, a national nonprofit in school redesign, and worked closely on innovative school projects such as nXu, Whittle, The Academy Group, Washington Leadership Academy, Art in Motion, Hebrew Public, Teton Science's Place Network, EL Education, and the Brooklyn STEAM Center.
Tyler also co-founded MENTOR Georgia, Transforming Teaching at Harvard, and the Chattahoochee Hills Charter School. Earlier, Tyler worked as head of the upper school at The Mount Vernon School in Atlanta, Spanish teacher in Gwinnett County public schools, and minister at the Grace family of churches where he led international development in Peru in areas of healthcare, education, poverty reduction, and infrastructure.
Tyler holds a doctoral degree in education leadership from Harvard Graduate School of Education, a master’s in public administration from Harvard John F. Kennedy School of Government, and a master’s in theological studies from Regent College of the University of British Columbia. Tyler has written about the future of learning in the Washington Post, Education Week, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Getting Smart, and others. Tyler lives with his wife and four children, all of whom attended The Forest School, in Trilith, GA.
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We're the valetins and we are passionate about people.
Speaker 1:Every human was created for fulfilling relational connection but that's not always what comes easiest. We know this because of our wide range of personal experience, as well as our years of working with people.
Speaker 2:So we're going to crack open topics like dating, marriage, family and parenting to encourage, entertain and equip you for a deeply fulfilling life of relational health.
Speaker 1:Welcome back to Dates, mates and Babies with the Ballotons everyone. This week's episode is from the Braveco podcast. It's a podcast that I did with a really good friend of mine, tyler Thigpen. He is an expert in the field of education and we really thought that our audience over here at Dates, mates and Babies would love it. So I really hope that you guys do this week. Enjoy this episode.
Speaker 1:We live in a time where masculinity is shamed and men don't know what it means to be a man. As a pastor and counselor, I've spent the better part of my life equipping and training others. My goal with this show is to translate my hard-earned experience into tools and tactics to help you become stronger as a man. This is the Braveco Podcast. I'm your host, jason Vallott. Welcome back to the Braveco Podcast, men. Welcome back to the Braveco Podcast, men.
Speaker 1:Today I am really excited for my guest, my brother. He married my wife's best friend, so technically, tyler and I really are brothers and listen, y'all, he's not on here because he's my wife's best friend's husband. Tyler is an incredible man and you're going to find out in a minute. Yeah, tyler is a national leader in education innovation, so he's the co-founder and CEO of the Forest School and Action Academy, as well as the Forest School Online and the Institute for Self-Directed Learning.
Speaker 1:Tyler's a badass y'all. He spent years redesigning education to empower students with real-world skills, creativity and self-direction. He's worked at Harvard University sorry, yeah. And the University of Pennsylvania and Transcend and helping schools nationwide to rethink how we educate the next generation. So his experience spans public, private and charter schools and he's the driving force behind new models that break away from outdated factory-style education from outdated factory style education. Guys, today you're going to get just a small little masterclass in education, the school system, and before I say, tyler, thanks for coming, I feel like this is one of the most important conversations that we can have as men how we are educating our children, how we're educating the next generation. This is so incredibly powerful, tyler. Thanks, bro, so much for carving out some time to do this with me.
Speaker 3:James, thank you. So happy to be here, so happy to chat and riff together. And I just love BraveCo, love the mission, love the men that I've met that have been involved with the organization, that have been impacted by the organization. My son and I count ourselves among those men deeply impacted. So great to be with you.
Speaker 1:Well, for those who haven't met Tyler before, he came out to one of our long range shooting schools in Alabama, which y'all? We have it coming up again this year. We always do it in the fall, so look forward to that. But Tyler and his son actually won best shooter at the school, and Oz is just a beast. What is Oz? Is he 18? He's almost 18. He will be God, absolute savage. Just you guys shot so well. How was that school?
Speaker 3:for you Just real quick. It's incredible. Jay mentioned there's one coming up. I highly recommend it. It was great fellowship, incredible to be outdoors. It was incredible learning. Jay and his team were excellent teachers and they brought in some unbelievable experts that I'll never forget and it's an art and a science and what a great learning opportunity and just to build one another's faith and encourage one another in the context of doing something new, doing something fun. It was inspiring new doing something fun.
Speaker 1:It was inspiring. Yeah Well, y'all could do that if you want to, if you want to learn how to hit targets out at a thousand yards and come back home. It'll change your sex life. Uh, your wife will all of a sudden respect you. Your kids will do whatever you say after that. Your, your employees at work, um, they, they call you sir, work, they call you sir. If you're not an employee at work, you'll get a. I don't know just like God looks at you differently when you can hit a target. Not really, it won't do anything for your wife, for your kids, but, golly, it will do something for your soul.
Speaker 1:So anyways, tyler, the public school system is, it's busted up, man, it's broken. When I was going to school, I went to school in Weaverville, california. So, god dang man, all these small little, small little hometowns we were just struggling along. My parents sacrificed a lot of money to put me in to Christian school, which was one teacher for six grades, I think, and that probably would have been fine if they had some more education. But anyways, man, the challenge that I found in public school is once you get behind, I was behind forever. So the truth is, is I ended up learning how to cheat really good. That's God's honest truth. That for me, I thought school was unfair. It's weird man, I had really good character, like just really, really convicted, but when it came to school, I had no conviction over cheating over, because I didn't actually understand the principles. I didn't. I remember the week this is okay, this, this will help you. I remember the week that algebra clicked for me. I had a week where I went oh my gosh, that's how it works. And then I, I, I forgot how to do it and I never actually figured out how to do algebra again. I cheated all the way through algebra and ended up in high school getting put back into math a where you got candy for answering the right question. This is the truth, man. This is my education growing up.
Speaker 1:So when I got out of school, I actually thought I did. I had to relearn how to learn. I had such low confidence that I that I knew how to learn something, and it wasn't until I got out of school that I started to go oh my gosh, I'm really good at learning Because my school system basically taught that I wasn't great. I wasn't great at learning. I wasn't great at innovation. I didn't know how to memorize everything and because I couldn't remember everything, I have a really bad memory. Now I know that. But because I couldn't memorize everything and I didn't understand some of the principles, I just got so left behind.
Speaker 1:But when I was in public school, no one was really talking about our school system's broken. It was just what you did. It was what, at least where I was. It was just what you did. It was part of life, everyone had to do it. And but now, looking back, like now sitting here, I have kids, you have kids. I'm looking at the school system going holy cow, man, our system is broken. Can you take us back a little bit on how was the school system developed and why are we at the space that we're at?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you bet. And, jay, I'm sorry for the experience you had and it's not Me too. Yeah, it's not dissimilar from the experience of a lot of people probably listening and a lot of people's kids who are currently in the system. Our American education system really, really started off with the goal of assimilation, you know just, there were so many folks coming in from everywhere into our nation and how do we sort of assimilate them, you know, into a, you know, one common way of becoming being a citizen, you know of this country and it's evolved since then and and you know there's been a for decades emphasis on just achieving, you know, but achieving on a pretty narrow set of of outcomes and it is an industrial age model that that we're still dealing with a lot.
Speaker 3:And you know the jury is not out. The jury's back Like we. We we've been in it long enough to know what happens and the longer the kids are in the environment, the more bored they become and the less relevant that they they feel that it is. You know, I mean, there's some national studies. As many as eight out of 10 high schoolers, you know, are bored. As many as seven out of 10 high schoolers are bored with every class, you know.
Speaker 1:Um, that was me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean to be honest, it was me to uh. I mean, I was an achiever but it still didn't hook me. I was doing it more just out of obligation, you know, and I was getting some.
Speaker 3:I was getting some like validation from like the grades and the praise of adults. You know that doesn't necessarily align with like what was what I was really intrinsically motivated to do, you know. But but I think to to think about why the school system is not working for everybody. I would invite you to do a little thought experiment for a minute. I don't think I've done this with you, jay, but the reality is like. If just imagine that there is in every school system right now in the United States, um, uh, that that's grade based. There's a, there's an imaginary person walking around the hallways, going to all the classes, riding the bus, playing in the sports, and everybody's being compared to that imaginary person. Like if you've, if you've learned more than that imaginary person by a certain day and time, congrats, you're above average you know, if you've, if you've learned about the same amount as that imaginary person, then you're average.
Speaker 3:And if you have not, I mean you use the word, and if you have not, I mean you use the word behind. If you've not learned as much as that you know imaginary person, by a certain day and time, you're, you're below average. And if you stay below average enough, I mean it, it like you're saying it impacts your self-esteem and your identity and, and some folks never, never, never get unstuck like you did, I mean it'd be fascinating, jay, to think through, like how, what was outside of school Cause this is a lot of people's story how did you go about learning to learn you know and love it? Um, I had parents that believed in me, which is a massive, I mean. It's the game changer, you know that, and the relationships you know that you form. Um, but yeah, but yeah, that's the idea of a grade-based environment where there is such. I mean it actually comes from the 1800s, from Europe.
Speaker 3:It was a theory called the average man in our country liked this theory and they brought it into the American education system and that's where they came up with the notion of average and they started, you know, making grades, grade levels started, standardizing tests, you know, to be able to say, well, hey, this is what everybody should be learning by this period of time, but, and that's kind of how we got the system that we do today and that's how we rank kids, you know, and but but I don't believe, I don't think you believe, and I think probably a lot of your listeners believe that that there is such a thing as the average person. I mean, god has made each of us unique and and there's nobody like us, and and we're made in God's image, and and there's nobody like us, and and we were made in God's image, and so you know what would it be like? Instead of assuming everybody needs to be learning, you know the same thing at the same time, um, uh, you know what would it be like to have a school system where, okay, what do you know right now? What are you able to do now? Let's, let's grow from there, you know, and it just the emphasis be growth and it not be about comparing. You know, which is about the that's going to suck the joy, you know, out of it. And again, that's not to say that in our country there aren't some things that we want graduates in our public system to know and be able to do Like.
Speaker 3:I do think there's been a conversation about that and it's it's changing. I mean, it's a very multicultural nation that we're in, and so you know what, what we think, you know what's for dinner, I mean, that's, that's still important, but there's so much room for personalization, there's so much room for customization, there's so much room for purpose. Finding you know now, in an information age, and especially in the age of AI, and what's super cool, jay, and I think I want to encourage your listeners to consider is a few years ago. It's called Populous by a colleague of mine at Harvard called Todd Rose, but basically what it revealed after asking parents across all demographics in the United States, a really big sample is that for the first time in history, parents want more things to change about their schools than they want things to stay the same.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and unfortunately, not many people parents like understand that. They actually think that they're alone in wanting, you know, all these changes, and so Todd calls it a collective illusion. It's like we all just kind of think we're we're alone for, like you know, wanting something different out there, but but in reality, like we, we, we all want things to change, which which means, you know, especially because there's demand out there, there, there is the will for change, and so how do we find these leaders, you know, in our system and encourage them and give them the cover and courage that they need to like, make some bold changes?
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting because I want to talk a lot about what it looks like, what a child actually needs in order to learn and to grow, and so we'll cover that some. But it feels like 2020 was a massive catalyst that all of a sudden put kids back at home. It opened up this window into what is the school system teaching our kids, what is happening, but also really screwed over a bunch of kids as well, because now you stop, even though the school system was not working very well, there are a whole bunch of kids I don't know what to call it, but a whole bunch of kids are several years behind in their education process as far as learning and growth and stuff like that. But what it did for us, I had two kids in school in 2020. All of a sudden, we had to go like, wait a minute, are we going to homeschool? Are we going to a charter school? Are we going to keep our kid in public school? And I feel like that thing that we're talking about as far as parents feeling alone and starting to go.
Speaker 1:I want the school system to change, but I don't know necessarily what and how to change it. I think 2020 was a beautiful catalyst in going. There has to be some solution. Now we know that we need some solution and I think that parents are starting to wake up a bit. At least my friend, my friend group, is starting to go okay, the way that we did school sucked so bad. Covid also forced us into the spot where we had to look for something new. The average, a lot of my friends, were looking for something new because it just shook everything up. But then it's hard to know, like, yeah, how do you do something different? Like how do you, how do you find something different for your kids?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so bringing up 2020 is powerful, jay. You know I'm in South Atlanta, and when we went remote in March 2020, you know, we taught our learners how to do Zoom. The day before, you know, we shut down, and then the next day, they hopped on Zoom and they did what they had been doing, which is setting goals every day on their own, working online on some e-learning platforms and then collaborating on, like, group projects for life skills and, and they were good at it, not because they're, like you know, super humans or because our teachers are wizards, but because they had practiced at it. I mean, that's, that's the way our school had been structured in the past, you know, and so for years, they had been practicing, like, shouldering responsibility for their own learning, and so they just did that online, and I think parents could see in 2020, immediately, like is a kid waiting on an adult to tell them what to do or do they really own their, their learning? And there was a national study that got published, you know, called uh, what? What made them so successful? And it chronicled about 60 schools across the nation that that were really thriving during COVID, and we were the only independent school that was featured and, again, it was just because our learners had had practice at that.
Speaker 3:And so I think the the advice that I would have you know, for for us parents, it really is to um, to think through when your kid is 18 or 19, or the, and they're going to launch from your house. You know what, what skills do you want them to have? What knowledge do you want them to have? What competencies do you want them to have? And and even writing that out, you know and and you can call it like a portrait of a graduate or a profile of a graduate that's what some people call it. And then you go to your school locally, or your school options locally, and you ask the school leader and the teachers like what are the kids doing during the day? Like what are they getting practice at? And are they getting practice at the things that you and your spouse wrote down in your profile of a graduate that you actually care about?
Speaker 3:And jay, the reality is like no school not my, not my school, no school whatsoever is going to ever meet those expectations right, they're going to fall short. There's going to be a gap between your, your local public school, your local charter school, your local independent school, your local home school co-op? There's going to be a gap at all of them. Which gap do you want as a parent? That's true, yeah, that's smart. But I think just when a couple or a single mom or a single dad thinks through the end goal and then really owns the responsibility to make sure that their kids are getting that kind of practice and exposure, I mean that's the, that's the real game changer, kind of like how your parents were. They're like I'm going to make sure that Jay, you know, is getting what he needs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's smart and that's really good advice. Um, when, when you look at, in developing a child, I mean it seems like that's your expertise. I don't know if I'm saying it the right way, but when you look at creating a program that helps a child develop into who they're becoming, what's the best way that kids learn and what's the best way that kids learn and and what's the framework for that and what's the science behind that. Like, help me, help me walk through that. And we're going to talk about your school here in a minute. But like, first, how did you? I guess it goes into how, what? How did you design your school and why did you design your school the way that you did?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, our school's really interesting. It's the Forest School and Acton Academy and we have an online school called the Forest School Online and it's got kids in three out of four US time zones Kenya, uganda, china, mexico. My head of school is in Thailand. It's the most geographically diverse school. The mission is that each person who enters our doors will find a calling that will change the world. So it really is about you know what's inside of you as a young person that's not yet in the world and what are you being called to and how are you going to use that calling to help others. So we start with that you know sort of premise In the younger years, jay, you know there's just some core needs that as humans, I think we all developmentally need. We need comfort, especially consistently between the ages of zero and 12. We need comfort, we need attention, we need affirmation like that's a challenge, you know. I've even asked my kids like, hey, how am I doing? Am I, am I providing enough comfort, acceptance, you know, affirmation, encouragement, um, attention, are you getting enough attention from me? I think that's just a key. If we're getting those met consistently, uh, between those formative years, zero to 12, then you know, as adults we're going to be pretty, pretty, pretty well off, high functioning, if we get them met inconsistently. You know we're going to have some, some, some stuff to work through, you know. And that's just from a need standpoint.
Speaker 3:I think the other thing we think a lot about in terms of our school's relationships, so the, the strength and the quantity and the quality of relationships that a kid has is going to be a massive determining factor of their academic success. So in the research it's called social capital, you know, not like money capital, but like relational capital, and there's three different kinds. There's bonding, bridging and linking. Bonding is like when you have a relationship with somebody who's like you, maybe the same faith, maybe the same economic background, the same race, similar worldview. A kid needs strong relationships like that with people who are like their people. They also need bridging social capital, which is like having relationships with people who are different than them. It could be a different race, different religion, different worldview, different economic background.
Speaker 3:And for me, as a person of faith, I think of heaven. I mean, my favorite verse in the scripture is Revelation 7, 9. It says after this I looked and there before me stood a great multitude of people that nobody could count from every nation, tribe, people and language. They were standing before the throne and they were singing. You know, and that's that's our future. You know our future is diverse, and how do we want that now and how do we long for that now and how do we learn to live together now and so helping kids form those relationships, you know, across lines of difference and learn to love and support one another.
Speaker 3:And then the third kind of social capital is called linking, which is about having relationships with leaders, you know, with people who have positions of power, who can give you feedback, who can make a reference for you, who maybe can give you an apprenticeship or an internship, or who can make a reference for you, who maybe can give you an apprenticeship or an internship, or who can make a connection for you.
Speaker 3:You know a lot of the research out there says if a kid has those relationships in place, then they're going to have strong academic outcomes because you've got this, like you know, this team around them that's really supporting them. And so as parents, as dads, we can really see one of our responsibilities is like to create those safe, supportive, loving relationships around the kids. So at our school we have these things called dream teams. Every kid has a dream team and it's basically like a group of mentors, friends, coaches it could be if they're a Christian, a pastor, or, if they're not, a rabbi or an imam or a neighbor or a family friend and they meet with the kid three or four times a year, but the kid leads the meeting and we've got seven-year-olds leading meetings where they're sharing their dreams, they're sharing their goals and they're getting feedback from this team of champions that loves them. I mean, as a kid, if you did that year after year, three or four times a year, like what do you think would have happened? You know, oh man, um so that's a dream.
Speaker 1:I mean, that really is a dream. Like, I know that you're calling them the dream team, but when I think about, when I think, man, if we were intentional to figure out at seven what it is that she really would like to press into and accomplish, and put a little team around her that could give her advice and help her, like I don't, I mean, just how much would you change her world by the time she's 15, 18? I mean, what an incredible tool to give her the ability to have the confidence to lead a team but also take feedback and input. And, uh, it tries something, even opening up the opportunity of thinking, man, I could, I could do something big this year and I need to think through some small goals to get. I don't know, I'm just imagining that that's part of it. Like, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:That's wild.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then I think, jay, from a you know, from an academic standpoint, it really is. I mean, you hit the head on the nail when you said you know learning to learn. I mean, what if that skill was built in the context of school, not outside of school? You know so, part of what we do. We have this thing it's called the Institute for Self-Directed Learning, and we partner with school leaders and school founders existing schools, new schools to like, help them move towards, you know, environments where kids are really, really, you know, running full speed with their own learning. And we do research too. And some of the research we've done we've discovered there is a pathway that kids go through and you know those of you guys who have kids you could probably guess where your kid is on this pathway right now.
Speaker 3:There's four phases. It's called the pathway of a self-directed learner. You know phase number one we call it desire. It's basically just like when a kid is is building the desire to learn. They they feel like they belong in a community, they have their core needs met. So they're not hungry, you know um, they're. Emotionally they're doing okay. Um, they feel safe, they see relevance in what it. So they're not hungry. You know um they're. Emotionally they're doing okay, um they feel safe. They see relevance in what it is that they're learning.
Speaker 3:That's all phase one, and sometimes seeing relevance is a is a struggle, you know you talk about at the beginning, but but that's a part of what we can do as dads um, you know and as leaders is help them see how what they're learning is going to help them later on in life. So that's phase one. Phase two is it's called resourcefulness, and this is where kids start to make the ninja move of choosing to do something challenging rather than do something easy. You know. So, instead of like looking on their phone, you know, or tablet or whatever, watching something you know amusing, they're choosing to do something hard, you know, or tablet or whatever, watching something you know amusing, they're choosing to do something hard. You know they're choosing to challenge themselves and learn and they're practicing good habits.
Speaker 3:That's phase two, and phase three is called initiative. This is where kids are not just solving problems, they're actually finding problems. You know they're go-getters. They're looking out there for, like things they can tackle, uh, things that they can address, and they're setting goals, and they probably have a process at this point whereby they're setting goals and getting them met. Uh, we love whoop. I don't know if y'all have ever heard of whoop. It's a whoop goals, w O O P, wish, uh, outcome. Obstacle plan. So like wish, what do you, what do you want to see happen? Outcome, what's the measurable thing you're striving for. Obstacle, like all right, as you do this, what's going to be in your way? And then plan is like what's your plan to overcome those obstacles? Kids can develop that skill, but that's not all.
Speaker 3:The last phase, phase four, is persistence. It's where you and I have achieved, and the listeners have achieved, which is like, no matter how hard things get, we're going to persevere. You know, we're going to practice resilience, we're going to bounce back and we're going to learn. Nothing's going to stop us from learning, you know, um, and. And so that's the pathway that we're on, and I think it's probably okay to just say that, dads, I mean, it's a journey. You know, like, your kid may be in phase one, and that's okay. And you know we and the goal is to, you know, meet them there and and then drive them towards that, that independence, um, really interdependence, especially with other people, um, but the best way to do that is to give them practice at it. So, like at our school, jay, we don't have teachers, we have guides, um, and instead of like explaining a lot of things. They actually ask a lot of questions, you know so the guides?
Speaker 3:the guides ask a lot of questions, totally so the kids have to struggle productively.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know they have to wrestle and figure things out for themselves. You know they'll figure it out from one another, you know from their friends in the school. They'll figure it out from research. You know there's so much great stuff online.
Speaker 3:Can you give me an example of this? And then, like, what age are kids starting to do this at? Starting to do this? At so oh, at the youngest ages, um so uh, we have our school is ages three through um 18, and even our three-year-old environment it's, it's Montessori based um three, four, five and six-year-olds. But even they, so they, in that environment, they do something Jay called works, which is where they learn how to do, like you know, uh, skills around the house, like cleaning stuff up, and even there our guides will they'll, they'll model something for them and show them how to do it, and then they'll challenge them to go learn from a friend you know, and then eventually they'll they'll encourage the learner to come back and demonstrate mastery of the thing to them.
Speaker 3:I have found in my experience that, you know, between the ages of three and, let's say, seven, there still is quite a need of some. I call it direct instruction. You know where you're doing some explaining, but you can start to practice. You know the peer-to-peer learning. You can start to practice the online learning. You know learning through reading.
Speaker 1:Like research.
Speaker 3:Yep Research. But once they hit fourth grade, you know, typically or beyond, sometimes earlier, sometimes later, that's where they can really start taking off. You know, especially if they're no longer learning to read but they're reading to learn, you know, that's where they can be responsible for uh, you know, for their learning. The important thing is to just make sure they know how to self-assess, they know how to evaluate when they've learned and what they've learned and how they can reflect on that, how they can think about how their thinking has changed. You know, and there's there's questions you can do. Two of the most powerful questions um, I can think of uh as a parent is um, you know, when a kid gets interested in something, you know what do you uh, what do you think is going to happen if you do this? You know just asking them that and don't judge their answer. You know yes, um, and and uh, and then the answer you could give is like OK, well, let's see what happens you know, and they could learn from that.
Speaker 3:Another powerful question is like what do you think you're capable of? Wow, you know. And then don't judge their answer. And then but say like hey, well, well, ok, you think you can do it, let's try it out. Or you think you can't do it? Well, let's, let's test that hypothesis. That hypothesis, you know, let's test that theory and see if you're actually right or if you're wrong. You know, and give it a shot. Because those two things um, the research calls it outcome expectations and self-efficacy um, you know what we think about, what's going to happen if we do something and what we think about what we're capable of, those things change over time, you know. And so, asking your kids those questions, and not judging their answers, but letting them inhabit that space, but just keep asking the question. If you just keep asking the question year after year, they're going to grow their ability to self-assess on their own inside of the kids that you're, ultimately, that you're leading, is you?
Speaker 1:I mean, you're fostering this, this, this growth mindset, and getting them out of this fixed mindset that, honestly, I think a lot, of, a lot of the public school system creates, this unintentionally, this fixed mindset because of I'm constantly being compared to this invisible guy that I'm either failing or you know this invisible guy that I'm either failing or you know. But you also have a guiding set of principles and beliefs that I'm curious about when it comes to your students, and I don't know that because I've talked to you. I just know that from looking at what you're doing, for instance, you have a belief system that a child can lead themselves and, if asked the right questions, can come to a beneficial conclusion. What are your guiding set of principles that your school is structured around?
Speaker 3:Yeah, the thing that we say a lot is we believe that every kid is a genius and they can change the world, and to me that, you know, it's a catchy statement, but for me, as a person of faith, you know who's I believe we all are created in God's image. What does that mean, you know well? Well, a lot of people have asked that question for centuries. One of the most simplistic answers I've heard that resonates is that God has emotions, god has feelings, god has plans, god has a will, god has thoughts, thoughts, and we're like God in that way, like everybody has these thoughts, these feelings and these plans that are coming from an ancient, beautiful, sacred place. Right, and the design of schools, not the people inside schools. People inside schools are amazing. They love kids, they want the best for kids. They're incredible. But the designs of those environments typically shut down the thoughts, the feelings and the plans of kids.
Speaker 3:You know, one of the principles that govern us is like, how do we do the opposite? How do we create spaces for kids where they can, you know, really explore their feelings and express their feelings, you know, and that'd be completely validated and okay? How do we create a space where they can think critically and really wrestle with different thoughts and debates and express those and learn from those and change their mind, you know? And then how can we create and this is the this is the more provocative one how can we create a space for kids to make their own plans and to learn from the natural consequences of the plans that they've made? Because that's how learning can take off is when you let a kid make a plan and they succeed or they fail, in a low stakes, supportive, caring environment, then they learn. So that's definitely a principle for us.
Speaker 3:I've already talked about relationships. You know we believe relationships not money or status that's the greatest form of wealth. We believe learning is better in a diverse environment, you know. So our schools are trying to maximize diversity across multiple dimensions. I mean age, gender, race, economics, school background, religion, learning differences. And you know, how do we love and support one another in that? I mean that to me is like a picture of heaven. You know, practicing heaven now. You know that vision that I was sharing earlier. And then, like you said, jay, we believe that if kids are rightly supported and they're rightly motivated by caring and trained adults, then they can shoulder the responsibility of their own learning and they can learn through friends. They can learn through adults, then they can, they can shoulder the responsibility of their own learning and they can learn through friends. They can learn through research and they can learn through trial and error, through this trying stuff out, the scientific method.
Speaker 1:So I think, um, I grew up with I'm telling on myself I grew up with with, like, looking or hearing about maybe, a system like this or even like homeschool. When I looked at homeschool kids, they were always like the man. They were the socially challenged, the um, you didn't want to be homeschooled growing up. Uh, cause those kids just were were. They were always the outcasts. They were the kids that didn't know how to play sports. They were the kids that didn't know how to have a conversation, and part of where I'm going it feels like I'm taking a left turn, but I'm not. Part of where I'm going is a school system in which the kids' emotions and feelings and their thoughts and plans. There's no grades. They lead themselves, the teachers ask questions. I there's a whole side, I think, of our society that goes like yeah, yeah, I know, that's cool. I watched this thing, this reel, the other day. It's brutal. It was this lady sharing a. She was showing what her self-directed learner kid could do and he was like eight years old and he was writing a story and he couldn't even write, you know, and the comments were brutal. The comments were brutal. She was so proud of him and the comments were brutal. The comments were brutal. She was so proud of him and the comments were just so brutal. You know, I guess part of it for me. You're like what question am I asking?
Speaker 1:Part of it for me is, and I think there's one side of society that goes yeah, if you let a kid just follow his own creativity and follow his own desires, he's going to end up 18 years old, just man, being an expert at whatever something stupid you know we need. Like we need scientists, we need, we need experts in in right. Like we need people need to learn history. Like this is what I was told my whole entire life Like you have to learn history and you have to know how to solve math problems which I don't know, and you have to be able to have a mastery of the English language and you have.
Speaker 1:Like that's what the grades were for was to help you so that you don't grow up to be this idiot, jay. Like you're going to grow up to be this person that is not well-rounded. Follow your own ambition, follow your own desires, lead yourself and you're going to end up in the spot where you're socially retarded. You're hard to be around, I don't know. So to me like can you talk to that a little bit, because I think that that's a large part of where we're coming from, is we need really well-rounded students and individuals to go into the world and to be able to, you know, do a whole bunch of different things.
Speaker 3:I can certainly relate, jay. To me, this is where the power of leadership and the power of community come into play. You know, I think just in terms of what we did seven years ago was, you know, I got together our founding parents of our school, founding parents and caregivers and we asked that question I was posing earlier, which is like all right, when the kids are 18, what do we want them to know and be able to do? You know, and you know, for us, we came up with four categories of things. We were like well, we want them to learn to be great people, resourceful, grateful, purpose-filled, flourishing. We want them to do meaningful marketplace skills, like creativity, like storytelling, like entrepreneurship. We want them to learn to learn, and that includes traditional academics, right. So we set a minimum standard for math, we set a minimum standard for english language arts, for science, but we also said, hey, you know, we want them to learn learning science principles you know, so they can design learning for themselves. And then the fourth one was learning to live together. Um, you know which is about teamwork and collaboration. We said we really want kids to know this. You know which is about teamwork and collaboration. We said we really want kids to know this, you know. So, again, learning to be, do, learn and live together.
Speaker 3:And so what we do is, every year, with every family, we create. I mean, we call it a badge plan, which is just lingo, but what it means is like this is what they're going to study this year, you know, and the learner knows it, the family knows it, and each year, the family and the learner can go. Hey, I kind of want to tweak this a little bit, I want to change it a little bit, but it's still based off that foundational vision of a portrait of a graduate, that foundational idea that we created. And, by the way, we'll revisit that foundational portrait of a graduate to like, update it in an age of AI, as marketplace skills that are demanded change. But they can change it every year. But then they go for it, you know, and then, when they decide to go for it, we just honor their goals, we honor their skills. We're like, hey, this is what you said you want to master over this period of time.
Speaker 3:How's it going? You know, I noticed that you're way ahead. Amazing, what do you want to do next? You know, I noticed that you're behind. Like how'd that happen? What challenges are you encountering and how can you overcome those? But but I do think this is, like I said, where leadership and community come in. It's not like and this is a legit critique of self-directed learning where you know it's not a kids in a cave by themselves doing whatever they want Like. We really believe that self-directed learning happens in the context of community, with caring parents and caregivers, peers and adults. But it's also for a purpose, and you referenced this. It's for helping other people. It's like we're finding our calling so that we can benefit others and change the world, and so I think having that kind of a process and that kind of emphasis can help there.
Speaker 1:When we talk about there being no grades. The point of grades is to somehow assess whether or not you're growing, you're learning. It's also an incredible motivation on some level to do the work. I knew if I was going to come home with an F I was going to lose so many privileges. You know the house was going to burn down all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:And so, one, how do you motivate kids?
Speaker 1:And two, how do you prove, how do they prove that they know, that they know what they know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like if I, in life, when I think about as an adult, there's tons of motivation because I have to eat right in the greater skill set that I learned, the potentially high value, more value that I I create, not value in the sense of identity, but value in the sense of. Well, now, if I, if I know how to use ai, or if I know how to build cars, or if I know how to build ships or lead a big business, then then I can, I can, then I'm more valuable as an asset to a company and, can you know, can can create more wealth, can create deeper relationships. If I learn, if I learn how to lead a marriage, well, the benefit is there right? I people are taking our six weeks marriage course and they're doing it because they want a better marriage. What's the? How do you motivate kids in your school and then how do they prove? How do you take grades away and they still prove that they know what they're doing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, grades are a tricky interesting thing. Right now in the United States most high schoolers get a's and b's, the vast majority okay. So like college admissions officers, employers, look at gpas and they're like, yeah, algebra 2, b, 3.0, you know. And they're like what does this even tell me?
Speaker 3:most people, because it doesn't tell you a lot about the kid you know yeah um, and, and everybody's got similar grades right now that's a good point yeah, and and and you're right, like most kids are thriving in the traditional system and and grades is a compliance thing, kind of like you're saying like yeah, I. I got to get the grade because I got to get the grade, you know. It's not about. It's not about you know true, true learning. Do you have any friends, jay, who are firefighters?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:So have you ever heard them talk about practicals? Yeah, yeah. So so I'll share for your audience. Like, well, I was a firefighter, well, there you go. Well then, ok. So I'll share for your audience. Like, well, I was a firefighter, well, there you go. Well then, okay.
Speaker 3:So so tell me if this was your experience, cause my one of my best friends that you connected with recently, hayne um, and he's captain of firefighters in Asheville, north Carolina, he was the one who taught me about practicals and basically like, if you want a promotion or if you want to get the job, you got to go before the captains, you know, and you've got to show what you know. You've got to answer some questions, you've got to put out some fires, you've got to deal with some emergency situations and you've got to prove it right there in front of them. Live, you know. If you fail, well, first of all, if you pass, great, well done. You know that this panel of experts agree that you know what you're doing and you're talking about. You know, and uh, and then you'll get the promotion to the job. If you fail, it's not the end of the world. If you fail, they say you know, you're not done yet Come back, I don't know, two months, three months from now, and and and, between now and then learn and then come back and prove mastery. That's what we do at our school. That's awesome. We have practicals, and we have practicals for those qualities, those competencies, the skills and knowledge that we've decided as parents that we care about. It's almost like an old school oral exam.
Speaker 3:I had this one professor in one of my programs at Harvard who was this old school Catholic priest. He was like an advisor to Kissinger, uh, uh, back in the day, and I know, and, and I sat there and his final exam was I showed up in his office for one hour and he just asked me questions. It was so intimidating but, uh, but I mean, immediately he knew if I was, if I knew what I was talking about, you know, and thank God, I got an A, uh, you know, and, and moved on because I had studied my tail off for that Um, but there's, it's authentic, it's, it's an authentic assessment, you know. So you can still have authentic assessments even if you don't have grades. It just has to be structured.
Speaker 3:You know differently, um, and in terms of motivating, you know, uh, kids, I think there's lots of different things. I mean, we at our school, you know grades. Grades are an external, you know, motivator. Yeah for sure, and uh, and, and that can have, like you said, like that can have a positive impact.
Speaker 3:But you, you also want to like pull on intrinsic, you know, motivators as well, like what?
Speaker 3:What are?
Speaker 3:What is your calling?
Speaker 3:What do you want to do?
Speaker 3:What do you love?
Speaker 3:What are you passionate about?
Speaker 3:What's a problem in the world that you hate, that you want to work on?
Speaker 3:You know, and then, as a group, you know intrinsically, like, what do you guys want to do together? You know that's a massive motivator as well as well. And so my team at our schools, like we, and we, when, when we train other leaders too, we help them think through, like, since we don't have grades as the hook, you know what are the external motivators? Maybe it's points, maybe at our school we have freedom levels, Jay, where, as young as Edie, they can like do their work and, uh, based on the effort that they display, they can earn the highest freedom level, which means they get to sit anywhere they want, they get to eat whenever they want, they get to go outside and study, you know, and elementary school kids, for example, care a lot about freedom levels, you know. But those are external. And then we think through internal, intrinsic motivators, and as long as a learning community has a good mixture of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators built into it, kids are going to be able to sink their teeth into something.
Speaker 1:What I love about that is that's life right, my internal motivation for showing up, preparing I mean. I'll give you an example Lauren was up this morning my wife at 4.30 in the morning and she's got her whiteboard out and she's got her sticky notes and she's laying out a book, she's writing a book and she was up at 4.30 in the morning. There's nobody that is checking to see what time she's up. She's not winning any prizes for doing that. She's doing it because she's had this book in her heart and she's sacrificing so much because, man, she wants to accomplish this goal.
Speaker 1:But I also love I love teaching both. I love this idea that, especially for kids, is your freedom is attached to your trust. If you can build more trust in the environment, if you can keep up on your work and you can do a great job and you can master this thing and you can stay on top of it and be self-directed learner, then eat whenever you want. Man, go do your work by that tree out there, Go, have fun. And I think that helps parents out so much. Because that's often what we try to do with grounding our kids and punishments at home. It's one of the mistakes that I see parents make is there's kind of two ways that you can motivate kids. There's probably a lot more, but you can either punish them or you can give them vision right, and sometimes both are necessary. Like the Proverbs does say, he who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him. So we do like the discipline is necessary, but the more powerful long-term being able to create a framework inside of a child in which they go life is more valuable. The more ownership I take, the more freedom I get. The more ownership I take, the more responsibility I have. The more responsibility I have, it's actually a blessing, it's not a curse, and so I really love that. I love what you're teaching your kids. We only have a few minutes left. I want to have you back on again to continue to go deeper, but I think why I like talking about the Forest School and what you're doing is it's such an incredible model for what's possible for kids and I think when, anytime that we see somebody break out in any area, it opens us up and unlocks us to what is possible, and we saw it with Roger Bannister who broke the four minute mile. I believe it's back in the seventies, when scientists said it's physically impossible, you can't do it. The year that Roger Bannister broke the four-minute mile, several other runners broke the four-minute mile. It had never happened before in history and you and a few other people really are paving a way and creating a model for our society for parents to go.
Speaker 1:No, your six-year-old child can learn a lot more through questions being asked than through things being told to him, and your eight-year-old actually can work really good with a three-year-old. That's one of the things that you guys do together is your students are intermingling. Where in my school, in high school, it was very segregated. You didn't have a 15-year-old with a six-year-old, but in your school I know that you guys do a lot of that. It's the intermixing and it's so incredible, right? Because man, a 15-year-old, doesn't lose the value and the perspective that my life is impacting this other generation and also you have this little one who's going. There's value and there's a massive resource to creating a relationship with somebody that's older than me, and I'm learning the skill set of how to interact and communicate with someone that is older than me, and they see me as valuable too, and just the motivation, the self-esteem.
Speaker 1:We don't have enough time to talk about all of that, but I just want, I want to. I want to just in closing how do people get more connected with what you're doing? Is that even a possibility? How do people get more involved in? I mean? We've talked about it before. I wish I lived in Trillith, where you're at, so I could put my kids in a similar school. Lauren and I are in a process. As well as looking at man, how do we grow self-directed learners? How do you help Edie and Liam be the best, draw out everything in them that God's created them to be? It's a challenge.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, we're in it together, man, and we can keep learning from each other In terms, in terms of collaborating, moving forward. If we did publish a book recently, it's called the Playbook for Self-Directed Learning. So if you are an educator, homeschooling parent, it may help you. It really is a playbook. It's very practical. It's like stuff you can do, you know, stuff you can plug into a daily schedule or a weekly schedule to give your kids practice at growing their agency. When I say agency, I mean, you know, building the skill and the will to achieve their goals. We also have an institute for self-directed learning and if you're in a public, charter or district school, we consult with those folks to help them move towards, like learner centered environments. And then, if you're in independent schools, you know we actually have a learner centered micro school accelerator for school founders or for folks who parents and caregivers or or teachers who like want to start something new. You know we can guide you through that process, do something. Or if you've just started something new and it's like struggling along and it needs to be strengthened, you know we can help with that. Probably the way to reach out to us would be on our website, selfdirectschool. Selfdirectschool is our website.
Speaker 3:And, either way, I would just say keep you know to the listeners, keep fighting the good fight. The fact that you, as a dad, care so much about your kid's education. Uh, in the same way that you know, jay's references parents did. I mean, that's the game changer, you know. Um, ain't nothing perfect, it's all messy, but that will, to like, really want the best for them, you know, and have that learning mindset, that growth mindset that Jay referenced, you know, is going to make all the difference. And and I, I guess, lastly, would just encourage the dads, uh, you know, cause I've, I've learned this journey is that, you know, I've got four kids.
Speaker 3:They're 19 to 11 in age sorry, 19,. Well, my 11 year old just turned 12. Um, you know they, they've got a calling on their life from God and, uh, you know my job. Uh, you know how can I, how can I stay true to my own identity, my own calling, my own values, um, and stay connected to them in deep caring relationship, even if I disagree with my own children? You know what I mean, because they have a calling for life. And how can I, you know, help them become the person that God's created them to be. I just don't think we can go wrong. Um, you know, and, and how do we stay connected? You know over the years.
Speaker 3:So anyway, hopefully that's all, and those are ways to stay connected.
Speaker 1:You're an incredible man and I'm so thankful for for having you on here. Um, again, we'll have you back to to just continue this conversation. We can go so much deeper. Um, guys, go get that book. Uh, go to is. Is it on Amazon, tyler? Yeah, go check out that book, go get it. And I just, yeah, I really think our kids' education is one of the greatest gifts that we could help give our kids.
Speaker 1:I know for me being in this spot, it feels really challenging, it feels really daunting, because I'm already at work, you know, and I'm leading a family and I'm doing all this stuff as a dad, I'm busy, but really stopping and paying attention and going what? How am I leading my kids? Well, not just at home, but how am I setting them up for their future? Home? But how am I setting them up for their future? I really do think that this is the time to invest a bunch of your time, effort and energy in setting them up for success in the best way possible. I know a lot of us feel really powerless to even figure it out, but these are the conversations that are worth having. These are the battles that are worth fighting. It's worth going to the schools and asking what are you teaching our kids? How are you teaching them? It's worth sacrificing financially for it Again.
Speaker 1:Lauren and I are in that same boat right now and asking ourselves where are we putting Edie next year and what is she going to do and how are we going to lead her? This is one of the things. Having older, had older kids who just went to a normal public school system, which for some kids it might be fine. But, uh, realizing, man, that's a for me. I don't know that I'll ever do that again. That puts a burden on me as a dad to figure out what I am going to do. This is an important conversation to have with your family, if you're a single dad with your kids, if you're a single mom figuring that out. But, tyler, thank you so much, man, for shedding the light, for helping us, for inspiring us. I appreciate you, brother.
Speaker 3:Thank you, man, thanks for the chance and always happy to collaborate and riff.
Speaker 1:BraveCo men stay brave, we will see you next week. Hey guys, thanks so much for listening to the Braveco podcast. If you like this podcast, would you please rate it, review it, leave us a great comment and, if you like this episode in particular, share it with your friends and family. That helps us to spread the word. Guys, stay brave, we'll see you next week.