Dates, Mates and Babies with the Vallottons
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Dates, Mates and Babies with the Vallottons
124. Leading with Love: Dr. Henry Cloud on What It Really Means to Be a Godly Husband
What does it actually mean to lead your home like a man of God—and why does emotional connection matter just as much as spiritual authority?
In this episode of Dates, Mates & Babies, Jason Vallotton sits down with the legendary Dr. Henry Cloud, bestselling author of Boundaries, to unpack the kind of leadership that builds trust, safety, and lasting love. From marriage and fatherhood to communication and connection, this conversation is packed with wisdom for men and women alike.
Dr. Cloud shares a powerful framework for building a strong home: start with connection, then add boundaries, protection, and healthy communication. Whether you're a man wondering how to lead with both strength and compassion—or a woman longing for safety and partnership—this episode will give you language, hope, and tools to create the kind of marriage that thrives.
Topics We Cover:
- The real role of a husband as a leader
- Why emotional intelligence is key in marriage
- How to create psychological safety in your home
- What to do if connection was never modeled for you growing up
- A practical pathway to becoming a strong, present, emotionally safe man
Whether you're single, dating, married, or parenting together—this episode will help you reimagine leadership in a way that builds legacy.
Connect with Dr. Henry Cloud:
drcloud.com
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For information on the Marriage Intensive and other resources, go to jasonandlaurenvallotton.com !
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Welcome back to Dates, mates and Babies with the Valetins everyone. This week's episode was a podcast that I did with Dr Henry Cloud on the Braveco podcast, and we wanted to just collaborate. I really love Dr Henry Cloud. He's been a personal hero of mine for a long time. His books on boundaries are absolutely incredible, and so we wanted to bring that over here and offer that to you guys as well. I really hope you enjoy.
Speaker 1:We live in a time where masculinity is shamed and men don't know what it means to be a man. As a pastor and counselor, I've spent the better part of my life equipping and training others. My goal with this show is to translate my hard-earned experience into tools and tactics to help you become stronger as a man. This is the BraveCo Podcast. I'm your host, jason Vallott. Welcome back everyone to the BraveCo Podcast. This week I'm excited to announce that we are officially launching a six-week marriage series, and our series is going to be really cool. I meet with and talk with a lot of men who are high-capacity men running at full speed, and all of us men want a successful, healthy life, and a massive part of having a healthy, successful life is having a marriage that you love. The challenge is, a lot of us weren't taught how to lead a marriage well and how to do marriage well. And I'll tell you if you are in marriage and you don't know how to successfully lead your marriage, how to show up for your kids, how to balance if you can work and marriage life, how to be a spiritual leader in your marriage, how to lead your sex life, like all those areas, create an incredible dynamic in your life and in your relationships. And if you don't, if you weren't taught well, then marriage can be this like really challenging place in your life that often as men, we want to run from or hide from or get so busy in work that we don't have to show up and all those things that that we do. But I want you, I want to give you what was given to me when I was young. I want to give you the instruction, the teaching. I want to take my years of experience from counseling, from coaching. I want to pull in some awesome men and women to help bring some experts in and give you guys tools and keys to lead a marriage that you're really, really proud of. And so this week I have one of probably one of the most impactful men who I have looked up to in my life, especially when it comes to counseling and all the work that I've done as a pastor.
Speaker 1:We have an incredible guest, dr Henry Cloud, on our show today, and Dr Henry Cloud's books have transformed millions of people's lives. I actually say all the time. I'm not just saying that because he's here, I say all the time. The book that every single human being on this planet should read is the Boundaries book, because boundaries affect every single day being on this planet should read is the boundaries book, because boundaries affect every single day of our life. We use them all the time, but most people use them as a way to build walls, to keep people out, instead of a way to actually build healthy relationships and keep people in, and so the transformational work that Dr Henry Cloud has produced over decades has just been incredible, and so to have you on the show, doctor, to give us your wisdom, your insight, but also to launch this marriage series, is yeah, it's so incredible. I'm really, really thankful that you've decided to come on here today. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Well, it's good to be with you. Followed you guys from afar for a long time and it's been a great thing to sit back in the stands and just watch.
Speaker 1:Well, today we're really going to focus on leading a marriage well, and I know that?
Speaker 2:how long have you been married, dr Cloud? This year we will celebrate 30 years.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. And then, how many kids do you have?
Speaker 2:We have two girls.
Speaker 1:They are 22 and 20, well, 23 and 25 now. Come on, man, that's great. Yeah, kids are the best I have. Um, I've been married. I was married twice and my first marriage. I was married for 10 years and then my wife left now, you didn't do that at the same time, right?
Speaker 2:no, no, I don't recommend.
Speaker 1:I didn't do that at the same time, right? No? No I don't recommend that I don't recommend that.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you know where Paul says elders should be a husband and one wife and people argue about the theology of that. I go, I don't know, but I think he was saying if you got more than one, you ain't got time for the church.
Speaker 1:It's going to be tough man. Yeah, I was married for 10 years and my wife she left. She ended up having an affair, and so I was a single dad for five years. And so, yeah, it's tough man For all the single dads out there. Man, my hat's off to you. It is a hard job, but I got remarried you know what Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, I always say and this kind of gets into what we're going to be talking about but I have a special kind of I don't know just affinity for especially single mothers. Yeah, I agree, Because of what we're talking about today, the role of a dad is so important that when all of that falls on her, it's just it's impossible. It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which speaks to us today about how important it is for what a man does in the home.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's real, it is man. It really is, and we're going to dive deep into that today, Having gotten remarried, I got remarried in 2011. And so Lauren and I have been married, for we're going on 14 years this year blending a family. So there's a lot of men in here that you're watching this. You've never been married Awesome. You want to watch a podcast on how to lead a marriage well before you're married? That's a great setup. If you're married and you're wondering, man, how do I lead well? Or you're blending a family, it's great because we've got you all covered in it. But one of the things, doctor, that I've just seen over and over again is every man really wants to feel powerful. They want to lead their marriage well, but the role of a man, the role of a father, has been so abandoned the last 30, 40, 50 years. The fatherless statistics are just astronomical in our nation and other nations right now, and so we know that, and the fatherless goes on in homes where he's actually in the house.
Speaker 1:Exactly Dad's home, but he's not present. It's massive. So, when it comes to marriage and in the role that a man's supposed to play, you know, in the 40s and 50s, thirties, forties, fifties like a son could grow up and watch his dad lead the home, and whether or not that was a perfect environment, at least you had a dad that was showing up, that had values and virtues that he was living by. For the most part, in today's day and age, most men aren't getting a really good picture on what it looks like to lead a family. Well, to be a present dad, to show up in marriage, and so I'd love to just start off of, like what does it mean to? What does it mean for a man to lead in marriage?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's so many directions we can go in that I. It's interesting. I'll start by saying this a lot of guys you know I hear this a lot of times because I work with ceos and businesses a lot and business people and um and they'll they'll often say you know what? I'm killing it at work. Everybody loves me and yeah, and we're just doing so well, he said, but at home I just I don't, I'm losing. I feel like I'm losing and I'll say, okay. So if you're, let me tell you something If you're killing it at work, you already have all the skills that it takes to lead at home. You're just not doing it because you think they're different. Now hang with me for a second. I like that.
Speaker 2:What do you do at work? You start out. What does a leader do at work? You start out with a vision what are you trying to build here? And you start out and you got to know, you know where are we headed, what are we trying to build? What kind of marriage do I want? What kind of family do I want?
Speaker 2:And then what do you do in your business, where you got the vision? And then you sit down with your team and you engage the talent and everybody understands this is what we are trying to build together and everybody's got a role, everybody's got something that they bring to the party and you engage the talent and then you got a strategy and a plan. There's stuff we got to do and activities we got to build in if that vision is going to become a reality. And they have some sort of way of measuring that and holding each other accountable. And then, when problems arise, when we hold ourselves accountable, we fix what we find and then adapt next week. You already know how to do this. You do it all the time I really love that.
Speaker 2:Let's just do that. Let's do that at home.
Speaker 1:I love that. I honestly do. It's a. It's a really great way to reframe um, like the the different, a different way to look at marriage and the role for a man.
Speaker 1:I think one of the challenges maybe that we could, we could look at is at home, right At work, I can show up and people listen to me because I'm paying them. Now, obviously, that's the first level of leadership. Is you do what I say I'm going to do because I'm paying you and we want to, as Maxwell would say, like, work our way up through those different levels of leadership. But at home, you know, I think one of the challenges for a man is that nobody has to listen to him because he ain't paying anybody.
Speaker 1:And I think if a man doesn't confront his insecurity, doesn't confront the areas in his life that are painful, then that shows up in the relationship, right. So an inability to communicate well at home looks totally different than your inability to communicate at work. I think a little bit, because you're always in that marriage dynamic of you know. So how are you, I guess, a bit like, how are you helping guys work through the areas in their life where they're feeling insecure, they don't feel like they have clear vision or they don't know where to lead their family. How are you helping guide them in that?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, you got to kind of find out. You know where's the gap. You know here's, here's where we want to be and here's where we are, and so you know we look at. So either either you're not able to do that, or you don't know what it is, or a lot of times you're doing it, but some voice in your head is telling you that you're failing and not good enough, and so so I think it's really important that we start out by let's just define, define reality and and kind of you know how, how you're showing up and how you feel like you're not doing it well, and where the gaps are. You know in your confidence. You know it's interesting. You said earlier that you know we're not trained to do this.
Speaker 2:Well, we are, because humans, basically we are imitative creatures. We learn everything by what we've seen and what is modeled to us. So everybody that grew up was modeled some kind of father, either an absent one, a good one or whatever and we internalize those patterns and either we continue to live them out or we try to live out something in relation to that. Well, I'm not going to be like him, I'm not going to be like my dad or whatever. Well, that's different than having seen something, and so I think it's really, really important this is for single guys Please, please, get you need. If you're single, the most important thing you can do for your marriage is to have a close relationship with some family that's got an awesome dad in it, that you're a part of that family. I was fortunate enough to be adopted by a couple of families. When I was single, I felt sorry for the graduate student or whatever. And you've got to be around good men, that you can see what you've never seen, even if you had a dad. We need to see what this looks like first, and so I would say get in some sort of you know a spiritual community or you know a family where you're seeing what it is you've got to do, and then you'll know gosh, I don't know if I can do that Then you can start to address building the skills that are needed. I think another.
Speaker 2:Let's go back to what you do at work. Yeah, you know, at work we do 360 reviews, right, we get feedback from our stakeholders, yep, and one of the things that I always did in our family is we you know, we'd have family meetings every Sunday night, and part of that was we'd go around the table and say, okay, feedback time. What did I do this week that you liked? What did I do that you didn't like? What didn't I do that you'd like to see me do? And the kids would weigh in and Tori would weigh in.
Speaker 2:Then we'd just go all the way around the table and in that, not only are you getting better, but you're getting good eyeballs on what you're doing, and what you might find is you're doing a lot of stuff you don't know you're doing that they really love, and that's good to hear too. But it also teaches everybody that we're in a learning environment here, and if we can establish a place where we're all learning from each other how to be better, that's a really important one too. So I think it's a lot of things like that. You know there's biblical guidelines. We can talk about all that. There's various skills that are needed.
Speaker 2:Look, this isn't rocket science. Yeah, okay, but it's not automatic either. Yeah, okay, but it's not automatic either. Yeah, and when you look at you know what does a father do? What does a husband do? Let me give you a simple little way of looking at this.
Speaker 2:The most important thing in all of life is built on connectedness and abiding. Yeah, that's great, the entire gospel. God came to where we are to resolve a separation. Okay, a father's role first of all, is to be connected to where you are. Remember the kenosis passage in Philippians 2, he gave up everything. It meant to be up there and he came down to where we are. And what he did was he connected with us, and so that means incarnationally doing what Jesus did.
Speaker 2:That you're trying to understand everybody. First, you've got to understand what are your wife's needs. It may not be all of her wants. You got a demanding, controlling wife. You know we got some other fixes for that but at least to know what does she really need and listen and understand that first. And listen and understand and get really acquainted with what your kids need.
Speaker 2:And you got to build a connection based on understanding and connecting. That's the first thing you got to do. And then after that foundation you know, when we build a house, we pour a slab and that's the foundation. That's your attachment to your family and that's basically going to come from being present and being empathic and being a listener and being tuned into their needs. That's what a good leader does. But after you pour a foundation, you got to build a frame, and it's so important that a father shows up and is establishing and living out really good boundaries. First of all, the boundary that defines the family. There is a we here and we're separate from the neighbors and we're separate from the grandparents, and this is our house and a wife feels like you're stepping up and there are things that you're going to stand for and there are things that you're not going to allow, and you're just showing up.
Speaker 2:You don't have to be a tyrant to do that. You just got to say you know, what that's not okay.
Speaker 2:And in establishing those handful of values and you know what does it mean to trespass you step over a boundary. That's a trespass. Forgive us our trespasses, and what are those lines, and that you're living those out. And then, third thing, when you build a house, you got to frame but then you got to live in it. So what do we do?
Speaker 2:We install an HVAC system. We got to. You got to have a third. You got to be a thermostat. You got to check the temperature in the house and when it's getting too hot and too hampt up, you got to be able to calm it down. When it's depressed and has no energy, you got to heat it up a little bit. You got to make it comfortable there. There's a plumbing system in the house. So you got to make sure the crap that's getting brought in by life, that you're metabolizing, that You're letting people deal with their hurts and their griefs and their problems and you're stewarding, that we're dealing with issues, we're getting the crap out and we're bringing good stuff in. We got to have clean water coming in, coming here. You got to feel this thing.
Speaker 2:And then, fourthly, after you put all that in the house then then you got to have some skills and talents in there to make everything work yeah and so we're, we're, we're always, we're always like, looking at this, you are the, you're the sort of the air traffic control above it all and you're monitoring. How connected are we? How good are our boundaries without being rigid? How much are we metabolizing the bad stuff that gets in here, that life brings to us for any member or our whole family, the hurts and wounds and all that? And are we building skills here? Are we developing all of us in collective skills we do together and the individual skills? If you do those things, you are going to be a superstar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's true, man, I just I love how you.
Speaker 2:You know it's interesting. Well, I was going to say, if you look at Ephesians 5, everybody camps out on the submission thing, but before that, there is a big, big prescription there of, you know, loving her, as Christ loved the church. And when you see that, what did he do? He did those things. He came down and he connected with us. He established some clear things that we're going to live by. He dealt with our griefs and sorrows and he builds us up. He builds us all up to establish our talents and our purpose and all that and that's just not rocket science.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I love how you framed all of that and and step-by-step, what it really looks like in the um, in the picture of of a home. And I really love that you started with the, the bond and the attachment, because I really do think the question to men is are you attached to your family, are you bonded to your family? Because the main role for a man, to me, is to protect, to provide and to promote. And when you start thinking through, like, okay, the protection, the provision and the promotion, the provision and the promotion, that perfect that protection, most guys, when you talk about all the protection, they instantly go to like I'm gonna get my guns, I'm gonna learn karate or jujitsu, and anybody touches my wife's butt, like I'm gonna handle it. You know, anybody tries to come through my front door, I'm gonna take them out and and yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 2:Those are just permission to play. If you're not doing that, we're not going to give you a cookie.
Speaker 1:That's all good, but really, when it comes to protection, when you think about it, it is that bond. It's that heart level bond it's. Does my daughter believe that she's beautiful because I've told her that she's beautiful? Daughter believe that she's beautiful because I've told her that she's beautiful? Or is another man going to come in and entice her by giving her something that I should have been giving her in the beginning? Same with my wife right, I'm protecting my wife's heart, I'm nurturing it, I'm cherishing it the way that Christ did the church, which is part of, if you tear apart that scripture in Ephesians husbands love, nurture your wife. It's talking about the way that a mother would nurture a child Like. I know every detail and I create this incredible protection in the home through the bond that we've built and I also love when you're talking about—.
Speaker 2:Can I say something?
Speaker 1:about that. Yeah, please.
Speaker 2:I think it's Peter, and I think the words are something like this respect her as the weaker vessel, but he says be considerate. I always thought that word okay, I've got to be nice or kind it actually means that you are considering. In other words, you are a student, You've got to really consider what it is that she needs. When a husband becomes a student of his wife, then you know how to love her, it's true, and you know what she needs. But you just can't assume that you know right.
Speaker 1:Well, it goes perfectly, because a woman's greatest need is to feel safe, to feel seen and to feel known, right, Like. If a woman feels safe, seen and known, then she's allowed to show up in the relationship and bring to the table what she was designed to bring. If a man comes in and he protects, he provides and he promotes, so that provision again it's not the nine to five job, although that's the baseline Sure, get a haircut, get a real job, show up, provide money, but you're back in the mode of being able to provide the most basic but essential needs is that bond, that connection, to feel known, to feel seen, to feel heard, to feel understood. That really is the foundation of everything in a home. When a child is born, the foundation for that child is the connection. When a marriage, when husband and wife are married, the foundation is that connection. And so the husband. I think so many husbands forget that their role is to lead. In that I can just comment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, please, I'm going to make a comment about that because a lot of times, you know, in the christian world we have all this language about you know godly this and godly that and be a godly husband, and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:okay, great, look at god yeah the number one value that he has is his connection to us abiding. It's over and over and over and over. It's just. Is that not what it means to know me? I desire compassion more than sacrifice. It is the relationship and the trust that comes from that abiding connection that everything else flows out of. So you can talk about all the husband activities we got to do. Those activities without the connection can go from either meaningless to slavery. The connection is where it all. That's who God is.
Speaker 1:That's your foundation. It really is, and I love that you nailed that when you were talking about the illustration of the house, because I think I have a hunch that the reason why most men, the reason why most men who aren't succeeding in their marriage, don't succeed, is because that connection was never modeled for them. They didn't grow up in a home where they experienced that deep connection that is so essential to every part of their life. And you don't necessarily have to be connected on a heart level to lead a business, but you do have to be connected on a heart level. The best ones are led that way, but you do have to be connected on a heart level, the best ones are led that way, but you're right.
Speaker 1:I agree, but you do have to be connected on a heart level to be successful in your marriage, and so I really do think that this is one of the secret components that a lot of men miss. And then what happens is, instead of modeling that and inviting the wife into that, the woman gets put in charge of the emotional connection in the relationship, and now it becomes this massive burden on her. She's trying to keep the kids connected to the father, she's trying to get him to be present, and it puts this big load on it. Instead, man, if we could show up and invite our wife into that by making her feel safe, seen and known, invite our kids into that by being present and consistent and open and vulnerable and honest, and by modeling that, everything changes.
Speaker 2:And you're right in that. A lot of times it's because they've never seen it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But another big problem is, you know we talk about that. They might not have seen it in modeling, but many men have also grown up with mother wounds.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's true up with mother wounds. Yes, it's true, and that gets under-examined and under-talked about, but it gets lived out every day. I mean to look at how many times the connection between the husband and the wife fails because he hears everything she is saying through the voice of a critical mother or some other critical voice. It could be his father, but she can say you know, can you not leave your clothes on the floor? And he hears why are you always on my case? And there's this instant reactivity. He hears why are you always on my case? And there's this instant reactivity.
Speaker 2:And men have got to really get in touch with not being reactive to feedback or criticism or her cries for help or her expression of need. And so many times they're so fear-based in relation to any woman that doesn't idealize them and tell them they're wonderful. That's why they're attracted to the affair. Because this one, you know, my wife's always on my case and all of a sudden this woman comes along and has nothing but adoration. It really has a lot to do with his wiring of he's hearing everything so critically that he's got to deal with. So he can hear her normal feedback or you know, or or criticisms or whatever as part of any relationship and learn to.
Speaker 2:One of the things I talk about in my book, integrity, is that a great leader embraces negative realities, in other words, when she's saying I need this or I'm not getting this or whatever, what did God do? God moves towards problems, he doesn't move away from them. And so to calm down that, you know, fight or flight or freeze syndrome in relation to her, that's what breaks down the connection a lot of times Is that he amps up too fast.
Speaker 1:How would you so if a man is in that dynamic right? How would you so if a man is in that dynamic right, or a woman even that's watching this? They're in that dynamic where feedback is a very, very painful place in a relationship. What would you say? The it can be yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if they're in that dynamic it can be If the man has not created psychological safety. Oh, I like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what would you say if there's, if they're in that dynamic right now, what's this first step for a man to to begin to remedy that, or a woman?
Speaker 2:I think the first step is to to really realize that, um you may, you may be more reactive than you think.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:In other words that even if you are being quote, criticized in a negative way, that doesn't mean that you have to lose your freedom and strength and autonomy from that to where you react to everything. A reactive person de facto is out of control. Her criticism, her feedback has now gotten control of you and now you've lost your cookies. You can't.
Speaker 2:Everything in the scriptures talks about not reacting to even persecution, even any of that. So the first thing is to acknowledge that and say you know what I got to deal with my reactivity. Why am I hearing it this way? And even if it is being said that, say you know what I got to deal with my reactivity, why am I hearing it this way? And even if it is being said that way, that doesn't mean I got to respond in kind, and so you know. That's where it comes to. You might have to look at some wounds inside, you might have to look at the voices in your head. So that's number one. And then the most important thing a marriage can have is what I think is Gottman calls this bubble of safety, this bubble of psychological safety where we have established, you and your wife have established.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about how we can talk about things yeah and and let's talk about the way we talk about things when it doesn't go well, and let's talk about a way that we can talk about things where we get on the same side of the table and the problem's over there yeah.
Speaker 2:And if we can have a space where we can put difficult things on the table and we're arm in arm, really trying to understand why they feel that way, without gaslighting it, negating it, invalidating it, whatever. There's a reason they feel that way. It may be in their own head or maybe something you're doing, but there's a reason they feel that way. It may be in their own head or it may be something you're doing, but there's a reason they feel that way. Then you become your teammates in a safe bubble where you can start to solve problems without reacting and you know that takes some feedback and some, you know, skills building, but you can learn to do this I mean, we do this every day?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really love that, because that's a really great measurement for a husband is do we have that bubble of psychological safety going on inside of our home? Is my wife wondering how I'm going to react when I walk through the door? Am I wondering or afraid of what she's going to do? If I whatever, if I share what I'm really feeling or what I'm really seeing? And I think that this is one of those areas. When you talked about the roof and you talked about, yes, there needs to be connection, yes, there needs to be boundaries up 100%, but there are areas in our life where we have to tool up, where we have to grow in our ability to navigate from here to here.
Speaker 2:You got to tool up without being a tool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Well, you either tool up or you are the tool. So, in one of those areas of tooling up is the communication right Is being able to say hey, I love you, I want to hear what you're saying. I'm really having a hard time hearing the way that you're talking to me right now. Is there a way that you can communicate that doesn't feel judgmental, that doesn't feel like you're blaming, but where I actually hear your need? So if a man that's why, honestly, it's why I love your boundaries book so much, because if a guy understands how to deliver a boundary in a way that invites her in, talks about himself and presents it in a way to protect the relationship, it really is the cheat code, because now I can be in a place where the psychological safety is being threatened, but I have a tool for that. I have a way to go hey, I love you, I really care for you. I want this to go well. Can we talk about this instead of each other? Can we talk about that? Or can you explain to me what you need? I can't hear you like this. If a man can learn that now I can navigate my kids right, my kids come out. They're angry, they're frustrated. Hey, I'm okay that you're angry, I'm not okay that you're mean. I want to hear what's going on inside of you and I want to help. That it's probably really valid.
Speaker 1:The way that you're talking is very, very hard to hear. Can you just share with me what you need? That skillset right there, man, that Henry has built for us in the Boundaries book and other books, is so vital to leading a relationship. It's so vital to leading a business or a ministry. That tool, to me, is one of the greatest skill sets that you'd have because it's protecting the foundation. Could you maybe share a little bit more on that and you've just done such a great job at giving language, because I think that I think so many relationships struggle because people don't understand how to use boundaries well and they really do use it as a battering ram to you know, I'm setting a boundary right now. If you actually have to say I'm setting a boundary right now, you're probably using it wrong. But can you just share a little bit more on that skillset and that tool and how men can use it in a way to like really help to protect the relationships in marriage?
Speaker 2:To understand what a boundary is. Let's just think about the word. A boundary is a property line. Okay, you have a boundary around your house or your apartment. This is where you end and somebody else begins. And each person in the marriage has their own boundaries because each one of them are people right, the closest experience, even when you are embracing your wife, you have a boundary, it's your skin right, and boundaries just are. We just define what's me and what's you.
Speaker 2:Sometimes let's say that I had a shot, some sort of flu shot or something. My arm was sore. Tori came up and hugged me and I went ouch, yeah, okay, that hurt. In a hug, that's a boundary. Yeah, in a hug, that's a boundary. It's just to say, oh, that felt good or oh, that hurt. You don't have to beat somebody up. You're not trying to control them. If somebody steps on your toe, you go ouch, could you not do that? This is a rocket science Again. It's just this feels good, that doesn't.
Speaker 2:Then we have to figure out where that's what talking about it does. Where's this hurt coming from? Because it may be that the problem is mine. I'm hearing it in a certain way. It may be that she's saying it in a certain way, it may be that she's wanting something I can't do, that I can't provide that.
Speaker 2:I can't be at this and this and this all at the same time, but we all, I mean we need for me to work, we need for me to be home, we need parenting. You need time with me. We've got to look at the pie and solve the problem of how do all the stakeholders get what they need. Let's work on this together. But if you're hearing it as some sort of an adversarial relationship, you've lost what's most important. What's most important is look, we want the same thing, and that's where I go back to the vision. When couples sit down and say what are we trying to build? What is it we're trying to build together? And just to find a few things you're trying to build together, then you can solve the problems of how this isn't helping that and this is helping that.
Speaker 1:We need to do more of this and less of this, but you're on the same side of the table and the problem's on the other side of the table Instead of you being on the same side of the table and the problem's on the other side of the table, instead of you being on the opposite side of the table, adversarially, forgetting that you both want the same thing and we just love doing it. It's so much fun. The first thing that we do is we have couples do what you're talking about. We have them build out a vision board of what they actually want their marriage to look like. So take the different people that you've seen in your life. So, for instance, I look at my parents and I love how my parents do teamwork. My parents have ran businesses together. They've been in ministry together their whole life and they do teamwork phenomenal. So my wife and I look at that area of our life and go, okay, that's the model that we want for our marriage. And then I have some friends that they've done family and church really well. The way that they raise their kids in church and in family has been awesome. So we have that picture right. We're building out this vision board of what different areas do we want our marriage to look like, and I think why that's so important is that's what you're always going to be protecting when we talk about the boundaries right, we're always going to be protecting. When we talk about the boundaries right, we're always going to be protecting this vision and, ultimately, its connection.
Speaker 1:So we find that so many couples, their goal, what they're trying to create is peace. What they're trying to create is a life of safety. And, man, we aim missiles at China to create peace. You end up being roommates with your wife or your spouse, but as soon as you go, our goal is a deeply connected marriage where you feel safe, seen and known, he feels respected, believed in, cared for. And we are going after raising a family that looks like this.
Speaker 1:All of a sudden the tools turn into. If you keep it on track, I'm using these tools to get us there, to help us to. So I'm willing to take feedback, because I need feedback in order to protect our connection. I'm willing to you know, compromise do win-win because, or even sometimes win-lose, because it's actually getting us to this connection place. And I think, man, as we're talking about, what's your role back to the first lesson in this six-week series is your role really is to lead in providing that safety, that emotional, mental, physical, spiritual safety, the place where the garden can grow and it's not going to come and get pillaged by all that outside stuff.
Speaker 2:And I just want to tell men like the same way that you're and it's not going to have an autoimmune disease where it's getting pillaged by the inside stuff inside the house. Yes, you have to be a steward over that as well it's true, and I think that this will really help men.
Speaker 1:I feel like a man is never supposed to stop opening the door for the woman, and what what that means is when we all first started dating. We all know, as men, to open the door. You see it on the movies. Your dad probably showed it to you, you know. Whatever, it's a known fact. Right, you open the door for the woman, you open the car door for her, and what are you doing? You're actually saying I'm thinking about you, I am here to make a way for you. Okay, emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually. That role never gets stopped as long as I'm opening the door mentally, emotionally, I'm creating a safe place for her. I'm being curious, I'm seeking to understand. I'm setting some healthy boundaries. I'm painting that, that. I'm leading her to. Well, what, what should our marriage look like? I'm inviting the kids into. Hey, what do you want to feel? Hey, give me some feedback. Right, I'm never? I'm never making my family open the door for themselves. I'm always leading that. If you think about that, it'll really help you here's a good question to ask her.
Speaker 2:Here's a good question to ask your kids. I ask my kids this a lot what's it like to be on the other side of me? Wow?
Speaker 1:Yes bro, it's real.
Speaker 2:And sit back and shut up. Yeah, you're probably going to hear some stuff, yeah, but it's a really, really, really important question.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:And we seem to have these discussions. You know the difference between you, any of us and my Doberman. My Doberman provides, protects, she provides hilarious times, she provides a lot of love for the family and she protects right. And she does it in the way that she's wired to do it yeah, the way that she's been trained, but she does it only according to the way she's's wired to do it yeah, the way that she's been trained, but she does it only according to the way she's been wiring. If, if somebody comes to the front door, she is the first one there and she lets them know.
Speaker 2:this is the boundary and it is a scary moment when somebody comes to the door until, I mean, she barks, you know, until somebody goes up there and says friend or foe, if it's friend or yours, go back. She licks them. If it's bad, she would keep somebody out. But the point is I've never heard her run to the door and bark and then stop and say I wonder if that was helpful.
Speaker 1:I wish my dog would do that, did I?
Speaker 2:bark loud enough? Did I bark at the right time? And the bigger question I've never heard her say I wonder if barking like that will get me closer to where I want to be on Thursday. Oh yeah, that is reserved for a human. Only our species, created in the image of God, can get above the way we're wired and have a desired future state, a vision, and ask is my behavior getting me where I want to be tonight or tomorrow, or a year from now or 30 years from now? And that's where so many people are living out their wiring and they're not getting above the wiring.
Speaker 2:And, as God says, observe your ways. And it's so important for men to have a space in your life with some other men, a couples group, you and your wife, your family, around the table, and not only do the work of the family, but start to work on how you're working. Start to work on how you're working. That is what differentiates somebody. As the New Testament says, is living life according to human desires versus. You've been called into the light to become children of the light, to live life towards a higher, a transcendent vision of who he called us to be.
Speaker 2:And this takes structure. You don't do this on the fly. You know the word structure means to build something. A building is a structure. Why don't we put a lattice up when you're trying to grow some kind of vine or flower or you know a vineyard or something? Because it doesn't have in itself what it needs yet to hold itself up on that path.
Speaker 2:That's why you've got to have structured experiences, experiences whoever's discipling you, or a group or a mentor or something that has a time and a space. Every week we meet and we get above our ways and we have a structure in our life. That's helping me grow into what I'm trying to be. Families need that, couples need that, couples need that, individuals need that, and without the structure it ain't going to happen, because you'd already be doing it if you possessed it. So that's what you've got to build into your life in order to get there. It's like your retreats, it's like your programs, all of that kind of stuff. No NFL team recruits the players and says I'll see you at the Super Bowl that's true In January. They have structured experiences all throughout the year to build what they're trying to achieve. Life is no different than that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Incredible Dr Henry Cloud. For me it's such a pleasure to have you on here and I appreciate your wisdom.
Speaker 2:I always wanted to come up and visit you guys sometime.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh please do.
Speaker 2:I don't know who I'd be when I came back, because a lot of people go up there and they come back.
Speaker 1:Their world is very different, yeah well, but I'd love to, we would love to have you and it would be incredible. Braveco man, I want you to think about this this week. I really do. I want you to ask yourself what am I providing in my marriage and am I creating a really incredible place for my wife to give feedback? Am incredible place for my wife to give feedback? Am I able for my kids to give feedback? Am I creating that psychological safety, that foundation of connection and creating a space in which my family can actually thrive?
Speaker 1:If you're not, there's no shame in it. It's not like I'll go beat yourself up. It's like, no, let's get a part of a group of men. Right, we talk about that so much here. Get a part of a group of men who are doing that. That is.
Speaker 1:The cheat code is, if you can get around a man who knows how to live that life and submit yourself to him, then all of a sudden you have a guy who's there to coach you. If you don't have that, begin to create that in your life. Find a place to serve at church, find a men's group at church, do whatever you have to do. Join one of our Braveco groups, but you really want to this week go. How am I intentionally leading my family into connection? That is the starting point for a healthy marriage. It's a starting point for you being successful in your life as a man leading your family. Guys, thanks so much and stay brave this week. Hey guys, thanks so much for listening to the Braveco podcast. If you like this podcast, would you please rate it, review it, leave us a great comment and, if you like this episode in particular, share with your friends and family. That helps us to spread the word. Guys, stay brave, we'll see you next week.