The Quiet Warrior Podcast with Serena Low

84. Breaking Through Shyness and Social Reluctance (with Susan Callender)

• Serena Low, Introvert Coach for Quiet Achievers and Quiet Warriors

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In today’s episode of the Quiet Warrior Podcast, we have the pleasure of speaking with Susan Callender, a certified success coach, the host of the Social Skills Mastery Podcast, and the founder of Social Confidence Pro. Susan shares her journey from being a shy, reserved child to becoming a successful professional and coach who now helps socially reluctant high achievers build confidence and improve their social skills. This episode is studded with valuable insights for introverts and quiet achievers who struggle with stepping into the spotlight and speaking up, whether at work or in social situations.

Key Takeaways:

  • The Roots of Shyness: Susan reflects on her childhood, describing herself as "lifelong shy," and discusses how social reluctance impacted her professional aspirations, particularly in sales and public speaking.
     
     
  • The Fear of Rejection: She dives deep into how fear of social judgment and rejection can hold introverts back, even when they are highly skilled and competent in their jobs.
     
     
  • The Turning Point: Susan shares a pivotal moment when a publicist’s blunt words made her realize that shyness was holding her back from fully embracing her success. Despite her achievements, she was avoiding the spotlight.
     
     
  • Overcoming Social Fear: With the help of coaching, Susan reprogrammed her thoughts to move from overthinking and self-doubt to taking small, actionable steps to step up and own her brilliance.
     
     
  • Neuroplasticity and Rewiring Your Brain: Susan emphasizes how you can rewire your brain to become more socially confident, sharing how changing your thoughts and perceptions can lead to professional success and personal transformation.
     
     
  • Overcoming Overthinking: Learn how overthinking can be detrimental to progress, and how learning to trust yourself and make quick, confident decisions can open doors in both your personal and professional life.
     
     

Reflective Questions for Listeners:

  • When was the last time you held yourself back in a professional setting due to fear of rejection or self-doubt?
     
     
  • What thought patterns do you have that may be hindering your ability to speak up and be seen?
     
     
  • Can you recall a childhood experience that shaped how you show up socially today?
     
     

Resources:

Susan’s Program – The School of Social Mastery: a selective, small-group cohort program designed to help rising professionals and entrepreneurs overcome social reluctance and build the confidence to speak up and stand out. Through coaching, participants learn to navigate their fears and step confidently into social situations, professionally and personally.

Find Susan:

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This episode was edited by Aura House Productions

Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm Serena Loh. If you're used to hearing that introverts are shy, anxious, antisocial and lack good communication and leadership skills, then this podcast is for you. You're about to fall in love with the calm, introspective and profound person that you are. Discover what's fun, unique and powerful about being an introvert, and how to make the elegant transition from quiet achiever to quiet warrior in your life and work anytime you want, in more ways than you imagined possible. Welcome, hello and thanks for joining me on the Quiet Warrior podcast. Our guest today is Susan Callender, a certified success coach, the host of the Social Skills Mastery podcast and founder of Social Confidence Pro, where she runs the School of Social Mastery. She helps sharp, high-achieving, yet socially reluctant professionals polish their people's skills so they can feel confident to show up, speak up and add more value in the careers they love. Susan, welcome to the Quiet Warrior podcast.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much, Serena. I'm very happy to be here with you.

Speaker 1:

Susan, can you take us back to the start of your story? What was it like for you as a child?

Speaker 2:

Well, I would call myself lifelong shy. I just believe it was my factory setting. That's how I came out of the womb. I have three siblings and I was always the most quiet and reserved, also the most serious and focused, and I took that into my schoolwork and then later into my career. But the shyness I'd never done anything about. So when it came to time to go to college and then start my first job, I still was holding back in areas where I should have been more speaking up and making myself known and stepping toward the spotlight, and that started affecting my life, my career, my livelihood. And that's where I realized I had a problem.

Speaker 1:

How did this show up, particularly with your professional aspirations? How was this shyness getting in your way?

Speaker 2:

That's a great question. I would say the first time I really noticed it professionally was in my very first job out of college. I was in a sales role that I thought was an internal sales role because I didn't know any better. It was truly my first real job and they asked me to go out and sell, to approach people, and I gave them a hard no that that was just not going to happen. Fortunately, I was very good at my job and I was valued for the contributions that I made in this role, and they did not push back too hard on my not going out to sell.

Speaker 2:

Now, if customers came to me, they would be sold, they would buy whatever I wanted them to buy, but if I had to go out and approach them, it just wasn't going to happen. I just did not have that in me. I was fearful. It goes right back to shyness and fear of social judgment and what people think of me and what happens if they say no. I just couldn't handle it, and so that was really my first big oh, my goodness. This is a problem, and it's on a stage with many people that have the keys to my future watching me.

Speaker 1:

And that's really interesting because you also said that the company appreciated and valued you for your contributions. So they did see that you have that potential, you have that ability to do your job really well. The problem was the going out versus them coming to you. When the customer comes to you, you have no difficulty selling them, but if you had to go out to sell to them, that became a problem. Why do you think that was?

Speaker 2:

Fear, nervousness and fear. And fear is created, I learned later, created in my mind. It didn't exist. No one disliked me. People wanted my product. I happened to be in the high-end hotel business, so they loved my product. But it was me in my mind thinking something's going to go wrong. But it was me in my mind thinking something's going to go wrong. And that is the crux of social fear and reluctance and being reserved. We overthink and we would rather stay to ourselves than to put ourselves in a position where a person may reject us in whatever way.

Speaker 1:

And there are many iterations of rejection. So how did you overcome your own sales reluctance so that you could do your job better?

Speaker 2:

Well, I would tell you, Serena, it didn't happen for years because I thought, as I said, when I was a child, that it was just my factory setting. I thought that that was just how I was and that was that. But I left that job and within two years or so I started my first company, and that company went really well too. It took off. It ended up being one of the most popular in its category in my region and I did really well too. It took off. It ended up being one of the most popular in its category in my region and I did really well. And the media came calling and I went running. I would hide from the media. I could not face anything that could potentially put me in my mind harm's way of people saying that they didn't like me, they didn't like how I sound, they don't like what I'm selling, they don't want my product, they don't want to work with my company, they don't like me All made up in my mind Because, as I said, the media came calling.

Speaker 1:

Obviously I was doing well, but I just could not bring myself to believe that of achievement, as you mentioned yourself, becomes a basis for feeling exposed, feeling unsafe because you're out there.

Speaker 2:

Well, said Serena, absolutely. I felt while I was doing something and this goes right along with the people that I serve While I was doing something that I was very well trained for I had the best internships in college, I was truly ready well prepared for my career, but I was not prepared to be in the spotlight. I was just prepared to do a good job. I wanted to work my way up and make whatever financial benchmarks there were and surpass them, but I never thought of people watching me or looking at me or focusing on me as I did that, and that part held me back in many ways, many ways.

Speaker 2:

I would have my employees go out and say that they were me, or I should say they didn't go out to say they were me. I would ask them if they would tell a reporter, a person from a television station, an interviewer from a magazine or a newspaper. I would ask them to impersonate me, go out there and say you're me. You know what to say. I did it on more than one occasion and they would have their picture in the magazine or the newspaper or they'd be on that tv clip and I had no problem with it because I was protected.

Speaker 1:

How long did this go on?

Speaker 2:

Oh, on and off, for maybe I would say within a 10-year span. That was quite a while it was it was. And then I had a turning point, and the turning point was I had a publicist and we were on our way to a photo shoot and I was very, very nervous and she said why are you acting like a crazy person? And I stopped. We were walking down a street in Boston where I'm based and I said, wow, she just called me a crazy person. Do I act like a crazy person? I'm just nervous, I'm just shy.

Speaker 2:

And that's when I said oh, nobody understands when you are good at what you do, serena, you have the degrees, you have the skills, you have the credentials. No one wants to hear that you're an introvert. The last thing they expect to hear from you is I'm shy or I don't want to go to that networking event. They expect you, when they ask you if you'll do the presentation, to say yes, not sit there with a look of a deer in headlights. And that's when I realized just those few words why are you acting like a crazy person? That even people who knew me well professionally did not get me when I did not show up like the polished professional that I should have been.

Speaker 1:

So that was the turning point.

Speaker 2:

It was.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and what happened after?

Speaker 2:

That didn't change everything for me. One story that I've told several times my company was hired to handle many, many events for the Democratic National Convention the convention where the president of the United States is nominated and my company was. We had the greatest number of contracts, so it was a really, really big deal. And CNN came to interview me and I said yes, and then, as the interview was about to start, as they were counting down to do the interview, like five, four, three, I pulled the microphone off and I said I'm so sorry, I can't do this. I don't believe. I said yes, I apologize, I should have never been here, I'm so sorry, and I walked off the set.

Speaker 2:

And that was a major thing in my life that I did not do that and it hurt me a lot that I was not getting better. I wanted to get better. I wanted to show up in all of my power. I'm a very intelligent person, I'm well-educated. How come I cannot speak about something that I know so well, something that people want so much? There is a barrier in my brain that's keeping me on one side of social confidence and not able to clear that hurdle, and I wanted very, very much to. Now I will say, serena, that I did end up 24 hours later saving that interview and it became something that people saw around the country and it was a really big deal. But it took a lot for me to do that, but I did it. I reached out to that reporter because I knew that I had to show up for myself and represent my company well and represent my company.

Speaker 1:

well, I'm curious what happened in that 24 hours to help you turn your mind around and your thinking around, so that you were able to reach out to that?

Speaker 2:

reporter. I confided in a friend who was also in a business that was very much in the public eye and he told me what to do. He gave me a really good talking to, as they say, like a scolding, like you have no business doing what you're doing if you can't go out there and speak about it. And just in the few minutes of setting up, the few minutes of setting up the, the um interview, the, the first day that cnn was to interview me, the anchor, and because this is taking place in boston, because they're there for the democratic national convention, and they just happened to mention what hotel they were at, and I went to that hotel and I asked them to for a redo and they did it and it worked out really well. But it possibly could not have. But from that it's just been a crazy life, serena, because there's so much fear. But knowing that the fear does not belong within me and that's why I work so well with my clients who are in that same position Recognize where that fear is coming from.

Speaker 2:

When did it begin? At what times do you have no fear at all? Are you fully confident in your role? And what happens? What's said to you in that moment, between pure calm and sheer terror, what thought did you have? How did that thought make you feel? What outcome do you want? And when you determine that the outcome that you want is success in your profession or your business, to get that client be able to speak up in that meeting, to walk into that networking event and have a great time, then you change your thought and say I can do this. I have what it takes.

Speaker 1:

I like how you've used a series of reflective questions to do some kind of emotional detective work, because I think that is the root cause, isn't it? There's always something that has happened or something somebody said, and usually it was in the formative period, when we were growing up, when we were young and impressionable, we believed everything and everyone around us, especially if they were authority figures, and whatever they said whether it was a throwaway sentence or unintentional or unconscious we believed it all, and so that became part of our identity, and it's almost like we picked and we chose certain things to hold on to and then the certain things we just didn't register at all and we only kept those parts that reinforced that we are shy, we're not good enough, we're not like other people, we don't fit in, we don't belong, and somehow we absorbed all that and took it into adulthood as well.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, serena. You hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what happens for so many people. They are in a position when they're young generally the first set of formative years is between the age of four and seven and they are in, let's say they're in their grade school classroom. Let's say they're in the second grade and they love school, can't wait to go to school and see their friends and they love their teacher and they like to stand up and help the teacher and maybe write things on the board. And then one day the teacher calls on them and the teacher asks them, let's say, to recite something or to present their homework, to read their homework out loud to the class.

Speaker 2:

And that child, let's say they stumble over their words and a mean child in the classroom mimics them stumbling over their words.

Speaker 2:

Let's say they say, let's say the person reading the report says that, ah, that's the first words that come out of their mouth as they gather their thoughts to speak. And then a child sitting a few seats away says ah, ah. And then another child laughs and in those few seconds, serena, that once confident child that loves school, that loved their teacher, that loves to stand up and present, no longer wants to do it, but wait. Then they go into their next class and because of what just happened in that first class, when that second teacher asked them to speak up because they know that this child has the answers they're always one of the first to raise their hand. And they notice that that child didn't raise their hand because of the trauma of what just happened in the previous class. But then they're no longer seven, they're 27 or 37. And they're in a professional world or they have a startup, and that same situation is still in the back of their mind, except they don't realize that that is what it was. Sorry to go on so long.

Speaker 1:

No, I think this is so important for our listeners because we we think that a lot of our problems are present problems, but actually everything that has happened in the past contributes to who we are now, and everything that we decide to be in the present also shapes our future. So everything is adding up to a version of ourselves. So the question is, how much autonomy, how much agency do I have in creating the version of myself that is showing up professionally today? And so, if we can go back in time and, you know, join those dots and understand ourselves better, we can be more compassionate, more understanding, more accepting. All right, so I understand where that came from, that came from second grade, that came from seventh grade and so on. But then how do I move forward now? What do I do with all these memories, all these past episodes that made me feel small and robbed me of my confidence? How do I turn that around and then become a different version of me that is more professional?

Speaker 2:

Go for it. To that I would say no one feels comfortable sitting in a meeting thinking I want to say something. I'm going to say something after Paula. Oh yeah, that's a good point she's making. I'm going to add to that oh, now Bill's talking. Okay, I'll say something after Bill. Oh, okay, now Matt is something to say I'm going to. Okay, I'm going to add something to that. And before you know it, the meeting's over and like oh okay, I, I got away without saying anything in that meeting.

Speaker 2:

But then it happens again and again, and again. But no one feels good in that situation. You want to contribute. So to move forward, you have to recognize it First. Recognize that you are not where you want to be. And it's noticed. You're never flying under the radar. Everybody knows that you are not one to speak up, so it helps to perhaps let the organizer of the meeting, whoever's running the meeting, know that you'd like to be on the agenda, anything that you can do to make sure that your voice is heard, if it involves going out and representing the company in any way, knowing that you're going to go there and speak to at least three people within 30 minutes or 45 minutes, and you cannot leave until you achieve that, because you have to face it head on.

Speaker 1:

That's the only way it's going to help but the person who has to do this consciously is also unconsciously worried that they won't feel safe while they're doing this head-on thing and having those two or three conversations or speaking to the group. So how do they manage their own emotions so that they can feel sufficiently safe to speak?

Speaker 2:

there are numerous resources for the person who is self-aware and realizes that they have some shortcomings. If you will, in the social specter, you are hired for your hard skill You're an engineer or you're an analyst, and that is what the company wants. But they also need you to be a great team member. They also need you to be able to go out and have lunch or dinner with clients and to represent the company well and the individual person, whether they're an introvert or somewhere else on that scale of social reluctance that you have to push through it and show up as a professional person who can say words and have another person respond Everyone has that within them.

Speaker 2:

So, whether you need a therapist or you need a coach or you read a good book and that helps you to go from where you are to where you want to be, but it's not going to happen overnight because it's in your head. It's in your brain that's slowing you down and making you overthink and making you think you may say the wrong thing. But through coaching I'm not a therapist, but I can speak to coaching. For example you will realize that every thought that you have that is keeping you quiet or not involved, or perhaps not getting the promotion or that great piece of business all goes back to a thought that you had that the other person didn't have.

Speaker 1:

And that leads me to ask about this LinkedIn post you wrote recently where you said some of the most intelligent people in the world, such as engineers, scientists and data analysts, can struggle with conversations, speaking up in meetings and making small talk, and this is not because they are awkward or introverted, but rather due to how their brains are wired. So the clue there is in the brain wiring. The neural wiring is different for different people. So what is different about the brain wiring of the kind of clients you work with, your high achieving clients?

Speaker 2:

of clients you work with, your high achieving clients. A lot of it comes down to fear and worry, and it's fear of doing the wrong thing, where another person will just speak extemporaneously and feel confident, knowing that I'm an intelligent person and I know this information really well, so I'm going to share what's on my mind, versus having a brain wired in such a way that makes you say, oh, I should rethink this, I should be quiet until I know more. Oh, other people, they probably know more than me and that hesitation, that gap of hesitation, can be exactly what keeps you from getting what you want. Because we reward people that are not necessarily the ones that you have to go back to later, the ones that you have to extract information from. We like the people that make it easy for us that person who speaks up quickly, the person and they're accurate. Of course, accuracy and having the correct information very important, but when that person speaks up quickly and confidently, well, it's no wonder why the business, or whatever that reward may be, can go elsewhere.

Speaker 2:

So how do we rewire that? Well, the good thing is that neuroplasticity you can relearn anything at any time. You have to understand that you are doing things that can be corrected that are not serving you well and let's see what is undesired and clearly undesired and how it's affecting you adversely. Generally, professionally, I work with professional people professionals and business owners and see where you want to go and we change that step by step, micro step by micro step, because we're so accustomed to being ourselves out in the world that we have to pause and realize that, oh, a person, how they speak to us, is a reflection of how they perceived me. So if I change how I'm perceived, then I can then see that person relate to me in a different way and, serena, it changes people's lives forever.

Speaker 1:

I love what you're doing because you've given somebody back their agency and their autonomy when they realize that they can affect how they are perceived.

Speaker 1:

They can affect how other people see them and how other people value them, and they can improve the communication so much just by changing themselves, changing their own energy, their own brain, wiring the thoughts that they have and the things that they say to themselves. So I think, going back a little bit, you did say that we like people who make things easy for us, and so therefore, we don't like people who, in a sense, overthink and make it hard for us, because then they think so much and then they throw back all these other questions and clarifications and then we have to go away and do more work and then come back and so the problem doesn't get solved fast. So in one of your other posts you also wrote that organizational overthinking and people-pleasing has a hidden cost, because while the company's leaders are paralyzed by social perfectionism, competitors who have authentic confidence are closing deals. So with what you do, how do you help people to overthink less, or is it even possible to stop overthinking?

Speaker 2:

It is, and overthinking is absolutely detrimental to progress. In anything that you do, you should and can be decisive and trust yourself, and that's truly what it comes down to Not trusting your words, not trusting your thoughts. Not trusting your words, not trusting your thoughts, thinking that perhaps you will say something wrong or there will be some adverse outcome, and that's just not true. Now is it important to pause and have a thought? Yes, but overthinking is as simple as having that thought, parsing it out, but then thinking it again, and it's that thinking it again. That's where you begin to distrust yourself, and when you distrust yourself, that is what basically holds you back, and it's very noticeable. It's noticeable in your progress in many things. How we do one thing, Serena, is how we do everything. No one is an overthinker professionally and not in other areas of their life, and so when you change one thing, you can change everything. That's the beauty of the work that I do. I work with people in the professional realm, but it also improves their personal lives as well.

Speaker 1:

I agree with you. There is something powerfully magical. I agree with you. There is something powerfully magical. When you change the energy inside yourself, when you change your own thinking, the quality of your thoughts, you can't help but affect everything else, because there's a ripple effect and everything is interconnected. So I love that. Now tell us about your program, susan, the school of social mastery. Who is it for and where can we find out more?

Speaker 2:

The School of Social Mastery is a small group cohort program that is designed for rising professionals, entrepreneurs, people who are characteristically reserved, reluctant socially. You want to be able to walk into any room any time and speak to anyone, and that is truly your goal. But you find yourself at hurdles and you don't know how to jump around or walk around or step over that hurdle, how to jump around or walk around or step over that hurdle, and so that's what the School of Social Mastery does. It's a small group, so it's not a huge membership where just anyone and everyone can come in. It's selective and it's a place for you to get comfortable, because your brilliance just isn't enough to survive in today's professional world. You have to be able to speak up and show up and stand out with the value that you bring you have value.

Speaker 2:

You are valuable and I assure you that people want to hear from you and after going through this program, you will feel so much more comfortable doing that.

Speaker 1:

Fabulous, and what's the best way for people to follow you and connect with you?

Speaker 2:

Well, the School of Social Mastery. They can find that at socialconfidenceprocom forward slash mastery and I'm available on all the socials and YouTube Social Confidence Coach on Instagram, youtube, facebook and LinkedIn and they're welcome to connect with me anywhere.

Speaker 1:

That's wonderful. Thank you, Susan, for coming on the Quiet Warrior podcast and sharing your wisdom and insights with us today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much, serena, it was my pleasure.

Speaker 1:

If you've enjoyed this conversation and want more content like this, make sure to subscribe and leave a five-star rating and review on your podcast app, so the Quiet Warrior podcast can reach more introverts around the world. See you on the next episode. I'm so grateful that you're here today. If you found this content valuable, please share it on your social media channels and subscribe to the show on your favorite listening platform. Together, we can help more introverts thrive. To receive more uplifting content like this, connect with me on Instagram at Serena Lo Quiet Warrior Coach. Thank you for sharing your time and your energy with me. See you on the next episode.