118. Creativity Without Ego: A Conversation with Stan Lai, Asia's Most Celebrated Playwright

In this deeply insightful episode of The Quiet Warrior Podcast, Serena sits down with Stan Lai (Lai Shengchuan) — celebrated playwright, director, and thought leader in modern Asian theatre. Hailed as “the greatest Chinese-language playwright and director of our time", Stan shares his remarkable journey from academic beginnings at UC Berkeley to transforming the landscape of Chinese theatre with works like A Dream Like a Dream and Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land.

Together, Serena and Stan explore:

• How accidents and necessity launched his creative career
• The relationship between wisdom and method in cultivating true creativity
• Why silence and humility are essential to the creative process
• The delicate balance between introspection and public presence
• How ego, self-awareness, and sincerity shape an artist’s path
  
  

From the metaphor of the warm baozi (steamed buns) to the transformative power of stillness, this conversation offers a profound look at what it means to create from the heart — and to stay true to oneself in a noisy world.

Key Takeaways

• Creativity is everyone’s birthright. Stan believes all humans are creative — but we often only learn method (skills), not wisdom (life insight).
• Silence is not emptiness. True creativity arises from inner stillness, where new ideas can emerge freely.
• Ego is the artist’s biggest obstacle. Self-awareness and humility allow creativity to flow without distortion.
• Ask “why” often. Regular self-questioning keeps your motives pure and your work authentic.
• Introversion is a strength. Quiet reflection nurtures wisdom, depth, and emotional resonance — essential for any artist or leader.
• Authenticity sustains energy. Public visibility becomes effortless when grounded in purpose and sincerity.
  
  

Memorable Quotes

• “Silence is not emptiness. From silence, anything can emerge.” — Stan Lai
•  “We are our own worst enemies — it’s our ego that stops us from finishing the work.” — Stan Lai
• “To be humble puts you in a low place — and from there, you see so much more.” — Stan Lai

Connect & Explore

• Find out more about Stan Lai’s work
• Join the Visible Introvert Community

This episode was edited by Aura House Productions

Transcript

Introducing Stan Lai’s Journey

SPEAKER_03 0:03

Welcome to the Quiet Warrior Podcast. Today's guest is Stan Lai. Stan, whose Chinese name is Lai Sheng Chuan, has been called the major contemporary Asian playwright of his time, perhaps of all time, the best Chinese language playwright and director in the world, and Asia's top theater director. Born in the US and raised in America and Taiwan, Stan earned a PhD from the University of California, Berkeley before launching a groundbreaking career in Taiwan. His 40-plus plays are celebrated across the Chinese-speaking world, including masterpieces such as A Dream Like a Dream and Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land. He is co-founder of the Uchen Theatre Festival, and Hui Chang Si Chi Xiao Chen, which is the Hui Chang Theatre Village in China. Welcome, Stan Lai, to the Quiet Warrior Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Hello, Serena. It's my pleasure to be on your podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Dan, could we take you back to the start of your professional journey? How did your creative journey begin? What has it been like for you?

Building Theatre From Improvisation

SPEAKER_01 1:12

You know, in a way it was quite by accident. But then when I when I think about it, sometimes, you know, accidents and coincidences and sometimes some things are sort of meant to be, you know, it's it's like um the main reason I started writing plays, I wasn't trained to be a playwright. At Berkeley, I got my PhD in in academic work and as a director. They trained me to be a director, but not to be a playwright. And so when I went back to Taiwan to start teaching at the newly established uh National Institute of the Arts there, I found there were no materials to teach with. I mean, it's like if it's like, let's say uh I know you're you you used to be a lawyer. Let's say you went you went somewhere to teach law, but there was no textbooks, nothing for for the students. And so if you teach acting, you need a you need you need build you need play scripts, right? And if there aren't any play scripts available, and there was nothing new being written in Taiwan at the time because of the martial law, then what do you do? So you I guess you do it yourself. And so I started a training program based on improvisation with my actors, students, and then shaping and devising those that training into scenes that would become attached to more scenes and become performances. So I started that way, and uh it sort of caught on. And Taiwan in the day had almost zero modern theater, as it had almost zero modern everything at the time. And uh soon we were really dictating what the modern Taiwanese or modern Chinese language theater looked like. And that's how I started. And I'm very, very fortunate. I was very fortunate from day one to be uh quite successful because um somehow my work strikes a chord in the audience. And I don't say that in a I'm not trying to be arrogant in any way. In fact, in fact, I'm very humble when I say that because I realize how many wonderful artists are not known in their time. And I really cherish the fact that audiences do respond to my work.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Thank you for sharing that. You mentioned that some of your work has sold one million copies in China. What do you think it is that makes the difference, that makes your work perhaps universally resonant or appealing to audiences?

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Well, well, you're talking about a book I wrote on creativity, uh, which is finally being uh introduced in English called Creative Tree. It's a sort of a play on words that sold a million copies, uh, but I'm not a writer per se, I'm a playwright. So my plays are written to be performed. And so one play, for instance, uh The Village, it's called. Uh I I really don't count how many performances we've had, but and how many people have seen it. But uh after every performance, we give each audience a botze, okay, a warm bauze, which is a dumpling, uh, and then they can take it home with them because it's very um, it's a very important metaphor in the play. And so when you get one of these, when you leave the the theater, it's it's reminds you of the play, and also it's quite late, and so you have something to eat. But we we have already given out, I think, 600,000 balls over the years, you know. So it's it's like the play, I think the importance for a playwright is how how often your play gets performed. Yeah. And I'm I'm I'm just saying that in in response to your saying that my work's uh sold how many copies or whatever. I think uh sold tickets is perhaps more important for for our for our mind, yes.

unknown 5:02

Yeah.

Measuring Impact Beyond Sales

Art That Engages The Audience

SPEAKER_01 5:03

When you mentioned the warm bowl, oh but sorry, I'm I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Serena. I didn't really answer your question. So um what makes my work um amenable or what would you the word you would use? People people like my work. I don't know. I think in a way, um, you know, there's lots of avant-garde directors who who I find don't necessarily really want to engage with their audience. You know, they they do their thing and then you know take it or leave it, you know. But uh and I respect them too, because that's I respect any creative person, how they work, but I'm not that way. I really I hope to engage the audience in issues and concerns that I have that I think I think if if this is a concern of mine, it should be a concern of yours. If it's not, then what am I doing? I mean, then I shouldn't be in the position I'm in. You know, I shouldn't be writing plays for the public, you know, I should be just maybe speaking to small groups or whatever. But um I guess in my 40 years of of doing performance, the plays that I write do strike a chord. And uh some more than others, uh, some less than others. And and uh I I guess it's just what I'm saying. I think if if you are in tune with life, if you are really concerned about the people around you and and what's happening in the world, then that concern flows into your work and the work then flows into the audience.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

I think in one sense, it can't help but be that way because whatever is inside ourselves, there is there is a part of us that wants to share it with the world and that wants to make that connection. You mentioned engaging with audiences, and I can see both sides of it. The the creator who has something unique in themselves that they want to share, so they put it out there. It may or may not resonate with other people, but yours is a little bit further. You said that you want to engage with your audiences because you believe that whatever you are concerned about, other people would be concerned about too. So that is could that also be um a medium? Maybe maybe your work provides a way to voice out other people's concerns. So it becomes a loudspeaker, perhaps? It becomes something that amplifies.

Theatre As Taiwan’s Social Forum

From Politics To Inner Worlds

SPEAKER_01 7:37

I think so, because in my earlier years, uh when I first started in the 80s and then the the 90s, people considered my work, and in fact, there was something even written about this, as a social forum. Because at the time in Taiwan, we were experiencing a uh uh sweeping changes in in uh politics uh and the culture. And it wasn't like today where you have all these platforms for social media and everything. The theater actually was a place for intellectual exchange. And uh people called our our theater works, of course, theater that I mean, theater that if people want to see theater, there's one aspect of it, and that is it is entertaining. So it's entertaining, but at the same time, it's a social forum. It's it's like a place where you can toss out ideas and see how they bounce around. And the audience, when they leave, of course, there's no direct in my in my theater, very seldomly do the audience directly engage with the actors on stage. Uh, I'm not totally comfortable with that. Uh, but once they leave the theater and they talk with themselves or they talk with us, it's really some important uh important ideas and concepts are are are being thrown around. And in those days, theater was a very important place for the for what was happening in Taiwan. Now, in the 90s, then something happened, which is democracy happened, and it's like um everything we were fighting for, we won, you know, and in sometimes that's a a strange place to be in, you know. I've uh I've noticed that in many political movements or uh other or artistic movements, and you actually achieve what you want, and then you suddenly feel very, very down because your everything you've worked for is sort of uh has been achieved. And in our case, what happened was Taiwan television suddenly became extremely uh active in terms of uh um uh political talk shows. So, so even to this day, they're very popular, just a panel of people talking about today's news and uh and and so sort of there wasn't any need for the kind of theater that we were doing, uh, which was very high-energy uh political commentary. And so in the late 90s, I started moving back into myself, um, and I felt more comfortable in that and doing works such as what you mentioned, A Dream Like a Dream, which is an eight-hour play uh that is still running today, um, that takes a lot of introspection and works with the inner self more than the outer world. Uh, or maybe you could say the inner self is what drives the work toward the outer world. But maybe I guess I'm sort of subconsciously edging toward what your podcast is about, you know, because um being very noisy at the start of my career, then I started to say that, you know, I started, in fact, to realize that politics can only take take a society so far if the people themselves are not, let's put a quotation mark around the word, enlightened, you know, or they don't, if they're not at a certain level, democracy is not something that is very helpful to the society. And the more important thing is how each person lives their life and how each person looks at life and is concerned with life and is concerned with others. And that's why there was a marked, marked shift in the in the way I was writing around the turn of the millennia.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

So there has been an evolution in the way you write in response to what's happening around you, which is your way of engaging with the audience. So you're keeping abreast of developments, you're noticing the trends, you're noticing what people need and need less of, and then you're tailoring, in a sense, customizing your work to match that. Is that right?

Artists, Trends, And Authentic Choices

Creativity As Wisdom And Method

SPEAKER_01 11:57

But it doesn't work quite that way, Serena. I think as an artist, you you're not you're not that calculating. You know, I mean, some people look at uh play production or film production as a calculating thing, and they they do all sorts of uh you know focus groups and they they bring out charts saying this is what people want to see. And I think that's a big trap, you know, because if you even if you will have the genius to tell me exactly what people want to see in a film today, I will tell you that once you write it together and put the production together and get it out, it's two or three years from now. And who knows what people want to see at that time. And at this, at this moment, it's like, you know, yeah, you you say people are not interested in this and that. And but but I say if that's the case, you know, you don't want to fall into the trap of only gauging what the aud what you think the audience wants to see, because that's more of the I think the entrepreneurial uh approach to to making art, you know, is you're it's like it's like making uh fall fashions for next year, you know. It's like uh what do you think people want to wear next year? Or it's the same. But as an artist, you really have to dig into yourself and say, what do I care about? I I look at the world, definitely what you said is correct. Uh we are living in the world, we're experiencing enormous change, and this enormous change has created enormous hardship for many, many people around the world. So, what do we care about about this? And from that concern, what can be built? What kind of artistic works that people are interested in seeing? Now, of course, that when I say that, that means that I'm still interested in engaging people. I'm not saying like only what I'm concerned of is is what matters, and whether you care or not, I don't care. That's not my the way I do it. You know, I really think that um I want to dig deep, uh, see what I care about, see what is really concerning for the world, and then finding a way to communicate that with you.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

So there is a micro element as well as a macro element. What would you say is what would you say is your definition or your approach to creativity? Do you believe everyone is born creative?

Soft Skills Also Need Wisdom

SPEAKER_01 14:31

I do, I deeply do. Uh, for many years I I wasn't sure uh because as a playwright director, I also was teaching these things for over two decades. And I always thought that I could enhance a student's creativity, but I couldn't make them creative. You know what I'm saying? It's it's like if they didn't have it, there was like no way I could activate that thing because I didn't even know what that thing was or how to activate it. And then one year in in India, uh I was attending a Buddhist seminar, and suddenly I I had an inspiration, a breakthrough in in my thinking about teaching creativity. And that is, I came across the the lines in a Buddhist scripture that to succeed on the path of practice, you need two things. One is wisdom and one is method. And I thought, yes, I've read this before, but I never really thought deeply about it. And it's true, not just not for Buddhist practice, but for everything, you know, Serena, you know, it's like, you know, you used to you're a lawyer, right? So you need the method of being a lawyer, which is all, which is everything you learn at school. But then there's something that's not, they don't teach you at school, which is the wisdom of of law. And what is that? You know, maybe someone taught you that. Maybe you had the good fortune to have a teacher who would teach you that, but it's something that's very obscure and abstract and and hard to, you know, it I don't think you could say it in one sentence, you know. And it's the same for all of the arts and for actually for anything you do. You need wisdom, you need method. So you where do you get method? You get method everywhere. You can get it online, you can get it in schools, you can get it all sorts of training programs, whether you want to be a sculptor or or a painter or a th or a director or an actor, you can you can find training. So, what about the wisdom aspect of it? Where do you gain wisdom in your life that is used for your craft? And that was my breakthrough is that wow, I'm thinking, I think we've I do believe we're all creative, but the problem is we're not teaching it in the right way. We are actually neglecting half of the equation because everything you learn is in method. And if you don't know the wisdom of it, you wouldn't be able to go to a teacher who would say, uh, you know, um, well, the teacher would probably tell you, look, that's not my that's not part of my job description. So you better figure out how to do it yourself. And it's true, it's most true for, for instance, like music, okay? Say you're training to be a concert pianist, and the teacher can teach you everything about the fingering and the scales and everything of a Beethoven sonata. But where do you learn the wisdom of how to play that thing? Because you can play those notes and a and a and a computer can play those notes, and a computer can maybe even be maybe even be taught or coached to play it in a in a wise way, but sorry, that doesn't take the place of really having the actual wisdom, and this wisdom comes from life. And so I came to the conclusion that we learn method in our art and our craft, and we and for you that would be law. And we learn wisdom in life, and that is something that we each have to strive to find for ourselves.

Introversion, Public Persona, True Self

SPEAKER_03 18:17

What you've just said reminds me of the interplay between hard skills and soft skills in the corporate workplace. There is a lot of emphasis on gaining skills, learning the latest thing, for instance, AI, and being that technically competent person. But there's also a deep need because we are humans. We think we are rational, logical creatures a lot of the time, but actually most of the time we're emotional and quite irrational. And so we need those soft skills. How to bring out the best in a person, how to notice where someone's strengths are, how to play to those strengths, how to get along with people, how to lead in an influential way, but without dominating people. Those things that we call soft. Actually, they they require more than softness. There's also that discernment, the sensitivity, which so that reminds me very much. It's quite similar, I think, to what you are saying about the wisdom and the method. And perhaps as as busy humans, or rather, we've created this lifestyle for ourselves that requires constant pushing deadlines, pressure, performance, anxiety, and all sorts of things which are external. But when actually the the thing that makes the difference or that resonates or even fills the soul, like your warm belt, which is fills the stomach as well as fills the soul, is is something that comes from inside us. And each of us has that unique something to contribute.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

I I totally agree. Uh, but I I also would like to throw out the fact that the hard skills and soft skills, you know, I'm not an expert in this, and thank you for introducing me to these concepts, but I think soft skills, there is also a method to soft skills and a wisdom to soft skills, you know. So there is actually you can you can see the this economy in everything that you train for, you know. So I could because to me, soft skills are still skills and there's still method. There's a method to maybe um coaching people or exactly everything you were just saying, but there's also a wisdom to that. And and the person who has the more wisdom is definitely more effective in what they do with the with their soft skills.

Silence As A Creative Engine

SPEAKER_03 20:43

Thank you. Thank you for illuminating that point first. Let's talk about the intersection between being creative and being introverted. Earlier in the conversation, you did mention that it takes a lot of introspection for you to create and to produce. Where do you personally sit on the introversion, extroversion spectrum? Would you say you're more of an introvert?

Ego, Perfectionism, And Finishing Work

SPEAKER_01 21:11

I've never taken a test. Is there a test? I don't know, but I I I think I'm definitely an introvert. You know, I'm I'm quiet. I my life is uh use if you go on the line, you'll see I'm everywhere in public places, but that's not me. You know, that's really just me serving my job as part of the job of being a a someone who produces uh performances for people to see. It's part of the job to be to have a public persona. But the real me is just, you know, I'm just like now. I'm I'm talking with you, and and it's it's just I'm I'd rather, you know, I don't we my wife and I, we don't go out, we don't we we we don't go to very many social events uh unless. We unless we're hosting them, you know, and we don't we're just very quiet people, you know, and we like and we enjoy just uh because we really think that intro just introspection, I think that is the thing that keeps you going, particularly in our field, in the arts, and just in life, you know, because if you're not it, you know, we're going back to Socrates, what he said, if the life not examined is not worth living. And how can you examine a life if your mind is very busy and uh you're just always out there doing this and that, and you never have time to be quietly introspective, you know. So, you know, when I first uh when we were first talking about uh being on your podcast, I really admire the the topic, the quiet warrior, because I think I thought, hey, are you talking about me? You know, it's it's like um that's me. I'm the quiet warrior. I'm I don't say much, and I say everything in my work. You see, and I think that's uh, you know, I'm I'm I'm new to any discussions about introspection and extroverts in in art. You know, I've never thought of it that way. I I know I all the artists I know and theater directors and actors, they're they're different, all different kinds, you know. People expect some of the greatest actors to be extremely extroverted, but they aren't. They're they're very quiet and they're you know, and then you would expect maybe this very thoughtful uh playwright to be very introverted, but no, they they're totally they go to wild parties and you know it's like they they really enjoy an extroverted life. So it it's I think it's hard to say, but I do think as an artist, when you get down to the nuts and bolts of actually creating something, it has to be quiet. You have to have your own zone to be able to do that. I don't really know of any artist who created something in a in a wildly, you know, noisy place. You know, I mean, I uh you I've done that. I've I've I I enjoy actually working in coffee shops that are noisy, you know, but I usually have headphones and I play my own music. And there's just something about being in that in public area, but also being by yourself. And you're sort of playing off the vibes of that, of everybody. Uh and that's different from working at home in your on your desk, you know, on your computer. And you know, in a way, I don't I don't call that extroversion. I think that's still trying to be very introspective.

Why Matters: Motives And Integrity

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Yes. Perhaps it's the silence that's inside your head or in your world while you're working and creating. It's perhaps it's less of what's happening outside, but what's happening inside, that's the dominant voice that's that you're paying attention to. So everything else then becomes sort of white noise. So it doesn't really disrupt you if you are paying attention to something else that is inside.

Humility And Seeing From A Low Angle

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Right. In in my book Creativity, I alluded to the fact that when I started out as an artist, uh, as a playwright, um, I I needed to have everything right. You know, I needed to have the right lighting, the right music, you know, the right stationary. Uh everything had to be right. And then my wife laughed at me. She said, you know, you you need everything right, and you definitely even then you don't necessarily are able to produce, you know. So she said, I would admire more a person who could just sit on the road in New Delhi and and and write something there. And it was a challenge, you know, from my wife, you know, and and and I I actually took it. I said, okay, uh, let me see if I can become that person. And I think I have become that person because uh my life is uh filled with, I mean, I'm all always multitasking. It's not just one play at a time. Sometimes I'm doing three plays at a time, and then they are produced at different times in the year, or or like right now, I'm going to be, I just opened a new play in Shanghai that was written last year, and then I'm going to Taipei to open a new play, to rehearse it and open a new play uh there. But that play was written three years ago, you know. So it's it's like uh things are happening always overlapping. And if you're if you can't multitask in our in our field, you're very limited then. So it's something you have to learn about. And but going back to what you said, the silence, I think that says so much. You know, silence is I think as an artist or as any creative person, you have to know where that is, you have to know what that means. You have to know what this zone of silence or this space which is silence is. And you have to understand that in that space which is silent, everything can appear. And that's the beauty of it, is that silence is not emptiness. Silence, from the silence, anything can come, any sound can emerge, any image can emerge. And in that space, that's where you find yourself most creative, because you're combining and connecting things that you would never have thought of if you didn't have the silence. You know, if your mind is as it normally is, as you just said, Serena, we're we're we're cluttered, we're totally cluttered. We're we're streaming a thousand channels at a time in our minds, you know, and and without while you're doing that, how can you be creative? You know, how can you how can you even think of something new when all these things, including 500 new things, are going into your mind? You know, it's it's it's not possible. You have to switch off these channels, you have to find a way to turn them all off. And then you are by yourself. And that can either be scary or that can be exhilarating. It's it depends on on you. Some people can't take it and they want to turn the channels back on, but they don't realize that when those channels are off, that's your best chance to be creative.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

So silence is conducive to being creative. What else gets in the way of people fulfilling their goal to be an artist? A lot of people will say, you know, I want to write that book, but you know, someday and all that. What do you think stops people from being an artist?

Repetition, Translators, And Sustainability

Closing Reflections On Quiet Strength

SPEAKER_01 28:56

You know, my answer is may be as surprising to you, but people stop themselves. You know, people stop themselves. It's like your ego basically is the main thing that stops you from finishing something. If you're if you're writing something and then someone's okay, it's deadline, and you say, wait a minute, I can't hand this in. Well, it's already done, hand it in. No. And then there's something in you that says, I this can be better. And of course, that's commendable, right? But when you get to a point where, you know, no, I'm not giving this to this publisher, you know, then there's this element of ego that comes in, and you know, and that you're in your own way, you know, you you get in your own way. And I've seen that often in my own work, because we work with so many people, we work with actors, with designers, with technicians. And how does how can everyone push their ego down to work together? You know, and then you find that so the people with with the big egos who will always say no to you, uh, sometimes for no reason other than to say no, you know, they they are quite limited in what they can do. You know, for me, if I can put my ego down to a very low place or make it disappear, then anytime any crisis happens, which is all the time in our field, there's something always happening. This actor can't make it to the to this performance, uh, that actor is quitting. Uh, we can't get this working in the theater, uh, the machinery is off, blah, blah, blah. Anything can happen. And for us to be able to handle all these crises, you just have to be able to be quiet and think of what are the alternatives? Instead of saying, my God, what bad luck, too bad. You just go, how can I go around this? And then you realize that sometimes the answer is even better than what you had before. You know. So I'm getting a little off, but I think going back to your question, we are our worst enemies often. And it's not just because I was saying one thing is that we're trying to be perfectionists as artists, but more so is in the fact that we think we have something great to offer to the world. And sometimes we don't. It's not always that we have something great and it's executed perfectly. That's not the case. Sometimes we have something great, but we don't know how to say it. And sometimes we don't have something very great and we say it pretty well. And it may not be something great for the world, but our ego gets in the way and wants us to be, you know, the word you used before was sharing, you know, and and we seem that we're entitled to share. But actually, sometimes I think that's a little that that's asking a lot, you know, is it's that if you think you are entitled to share whatever is in you, okay, maybe to close friends or whatever. But if you're talking about the public, you want to share these things for the public, then you want to examine why.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Why do you want to why do you want these things to be, you know, I mean, what's gonna what's gonna help you or cure you from what you're doing?

Community Invite And Farewell

SPEAKER_01 32:37

I know there are many wonderful works of art that are made through the difficulties that the artist has experienced over life. And by getting those difficulties out into the public, somehow there's some sort of therapeutic uh something happens that heals, you know. And for the reader or the audience too, they they probably feel healed too. Many of these authors often don't have a second grade work or even a second work. It's like the whole purpose of their art is to get this out of them, which is commendable and I think is totally legitimate. But what I'm saying, I don't know if I'm being understandable at all, Serena, is what I'm saying is that sometimes this entitlement of thinking that anything you you want to put out there, people need to watch.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

You know, I think this is what gets in the way of many of many artists.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

You're talking about ego, and you're also talking about perhaps overestimating our artistic worth or the worth of our creations. So, what is the flip side of that? What's the antidote to that?

SPEAKER_00 33:59

The antidote is to ask yourself why is to get in the habit of questioning yourself, why am I doing this?

SPEAKER_01 34:10

You know, Serena, why are you why did you want to do this podcast in the first place? And you have your great reasons. We've talked about your reasons, and if your reasons weren't very good, you wouldn't have lasted so long. Yeah, you know what I'm saying, Serena. It's like if if your reasons were very selfish, you you know, that's the key. If your reasons are selfish, then you will come to a point where I think you, I think you will come to a point where difficulties arise, you know, and you you don't know why, because you're not used to asking yourself why. And if you ask yourself why, why did I write this play? Why did I want act in that film, you know, and then you might say to yourself, well, I thought the character was extremely noble and blah, blah, blah, but actually you wanted that paycheck, okay, which is totally legitimate. You know, I'm I'm not saying these are not legitimate objectives or motivations. What I'm saying is, are you are you in tune with asking yourself why you're doing whatever you're doing at all times? And if you are, then that's your insurance policy, you know, because everything you put out then will be safe. There was it won't, it won't harm you and it won't harm the audience either.

SPEAKER_03 35:27

I love that you called it an insurance policy because taking taking that first step of putting your work out, it's it's very intimidating and overwhelming for an artist. It's like sharing a little bit of your inner world that feels very private, very, you know, personal to you, and you're allowing other people to see it and you don't know how they will react. Is there going to be an outcry, a backlash? People are gonna hate it, you're gonna get trolled on social media, you just don't know. So it is a huge risk. And I I like that you've mentioned that you require that honesty, that um self-awareness, and also some humility in that this is this little thing that I've made. Well, I don't know if you will like it, I don't know what you will think of it, but here it is. Here it is, because you know, I I thought it would be helpful to somebody. Maybe it will be helpful to one person, not a hundred people or a thousand.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

And often, Serena, it's not just sharing something. It's in Chinese we say tao xing tau fei. You know, you actually dug out your soul, you dug out your heart and you give it, you present it to the to the public, you know. And when the public says, nah, you know, that is it's crushing, you know. It's it's really, you really put yourself out there uh in a very, very fragile situation as an artist. It's true. You know, on the other hand, if people like what you do, you get the immediate satisfaction, gratification, you know. So it's it it works both ways, you know. I think um for for your listeners, uh, you know, art artists, I think it's the most immediate payback you can get from all the professions in the world. You know, you don't, I mean, if if you're a bank clerk, right, you don't you don't what you do doesn't have automatic, you know, you don't get an automatic response that you're great or you're not great, you know. But as an actor, as a performer, as an artist, painter, whatever, anyone who sees your work immediately, that exposes you. And you have to the the best way to tough it out, because you're gonna get both sides, is to keep asking why you wanted to do this. And if your reasons are good enough, you're definitely gonna weather the storm.

SPEAKER_03 37:57

And I think as a member of the audience watching somebody else put their soul out there, I feel very honored. I feel, wow, this person has created this thing out of seemingly nothing, you know, from a blank page, from from their own wisdom, from their observations of life, from perhaps their own inspiration. And they're sharing it with us. What an honor to be able to witness it, to sit in the audience, you know, or to read the book, or to listen to the music, or to see that person perform on stage. And then you see um a little a little part of their soul on display. And you know when when that moment happens, you feel really connected with that performance, you know, those words, the music, something in it stirs the soul. And I think that's the power that the arts and culture and performance have for all of us, you know, despite all the technological inventions and innovations and the ways in which we think we're becoming more and more civilized and better and better as a as a as humanity. I think we still need all these proofs, I guess, that there is a part of us that's still connected to something beyond ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

I agree with you to a point, Serena, because I've also sat in the audience and felt very uh grateful to be part of the sharing of the artist's soul. But I've also spent time in an audience where I felt like garbage was dumped on me. It's like the expression was me receiving all of the garbage from an artist's soul and dumped on me. So I think there's something here that we need to talk about, which is whether your work is transformative or not. In other words, the simple act of taking out your garbage is simple enough. But if you don't have anything more than that, I'm sorry. I think your work is probably not going to be that appreciated. You know, but if the gesture of throwing out that garbage links you to something beyond that, and and and that whole that simple act is a transformative act, then we start feeling the camaraderie and we feel this uh connectivity with our souls.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

Which I think goes back to what you said earlier, Stan, about the self-awareness and that honesty and asking ourselves, why are we doing this thing? So there has to be this sort of mirror or something that reflects back to us the value, the worth of what we're doing. And that has to be, I guess it's objective. It's something only the creator, the artists themselves can answer.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

And you have to ask the question very honestly and you have to be sincere for this, you know, in a way, Serena, what I was talking about, wisdom and method as the two sides of uh obtaining your creativity. You know, one, because you would say, How do I get wisdom? You know, oh, I can read, I can read the sages, I can read all this philosophy. But in the end, it's all about your view about life. That's your wisdom. You know, how what do you think about life? What is life and and what what does it mean to be living? What is what does it make us human, you know? And so in the end, it's it's more about if you're asking yourself the question, why am I doing this? The sincerity of it, it may make it brutal, you know, because you are it's like it's like you can say, I'm writing these songs, and then someone will say, Why are you writing these songs? Well, you don't have to ask me. Uh I can I'm entitled to write these songs. No, but why? Because I I need an expression. But maybe the more you ask yourself sincerely answer your questions, then you may find that actually you're trying to make some money off of this. Or maybe making money is part of it. And I'm not condemning that. You know, I just I'm just saying you have to understand that if you're trying to make money off of an artistic uh endeavor, then you understand that what you what you're asking for, what you're shooting for, then that's what what you should be in the end, that's how you should be uh um sorry, that's how you should be looked at. In other words, in other words, a director directs a blockbuster film, but it fails at the box office. But people call it an artistic masterpiece. But the director wanted a blockbuster, so he fails. You see what I'm saying? It doesn't matter if the critics say that this is an artistic masterpiece. In your own mind, why are you doing this? I'm doing this because I want to make five million dollars, and then you failed. Well, then you failed at your at what was your objective, your motivation. So it's kind of tricky, Serena. It's that you you do need the courage, is what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

But you have to be sincere.

SPEAKER_03 43:19

You have to have courage, you have to be sincere, you have to know yourself and be honest. You also have to be humble because you don't know where that work could go or whether it goes anywhere at all.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

I think humility is totally one of the most important aspects you need uh to be creative. That's may sound a little strange, but I think it's totally true because to be humble puts you in a at a low uh point of view.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

So you lower yourself. You you never for me, I I never consider myself a Above anything or anybody. You know, and I think if you're above you don't see much, you know. But if you're at a low angle, you see so much. You can see you see much more. Let's put it that way. You see much more than someone standing at a very high angle, very arrogantly or haughtily looking at people or at society.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

I think you put yourself low, you see so much more.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

As an introspective person who is also a creative, how do you manage your energy around the times when you need to do public-facing things? Because you need to let people know that this work is being published, being promoted, it's airing, it's going to be performed.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

I remember when I first started out, I was uh there was actually I'd I'd done it for I'd been a director for maybe 15 years. I was in Beijing, and uh my work was first started to be performed there. And uh one of my producers uh set up a whole day of interviews. So I was sitting at this table in a in a coffee shop in Beijing from 10 in the morning till seven in the evening. And I think I did uh seven straight in-depth interviews, like each over an hour long. And the final one came, I was totally exhausted. I mean, you you're right, you need energy. But you I mean, this is a little superhuman to do seven in a row. So the person was very kind and from a very nice uh media. And the first thing he asked me was, So, uh, Mr. Lai, what do you what do you most dislike about your job? And I immediately said, This part, this part of the job, which is I said it out of frustration because I was so tired, you know. And and since he asked, I was honest and I said, I hate this, you know, I hate sitting at a table and trying to promote myself. You know, I I think that's I think my work should speak for itself, you know. But I also understand that, yes, this is necessary. And we laughed it off, you know, we had a great interview, but this is just a story to tell you that it is hard, particularly if you are uh an introvert like I am. You know, you have to you have to learn to have a public persona, and then you have to learn that that public persona has to really be you. See what I'm saying? There's a contradiction there. It's like you should just be yourself, right? But no, you have to first establish this, you first have to get the energy up to be able to do all these things in public. And then once you're there though, you have to let things down and you have to be yourself. Because only by being yourself can you really sustain everything. I mean, if you're trying to create a different persona, I think that would be the most, you know, exhausting thing in the world to have to keep doing that day after day day and creating. But I think some people do that, and good luck to them.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

I'm glad you mentioned that the sustainability element that is a huge problem for a lot of introverts and quiet achievers. How do I keep going? How do I keep up my energy? How do I keep up the motivation, the enthusiasm for this thing that I'm making or this thing that I'm creating or building? And so I think what you've just pointed out is it's possible, it's learnable, it's a skill, it's a set of skills, but at the same time, it also has to be authentic, it has to be true to ourselves. And I think that's going to be quite complex because the self, the self itself is complex. There's so many parts of us, so many aspects and facets to each person. And it's it's an inner work, I think, to figure out how to make all that work together, to find that internal harmony, that internal congruence, so that when we are performing or we are giving those interviews or we are talking and we're out in the public eye, we are still being ourselves, even though we are exposed to the public scrutiny. And then when we are by ourselves, we are still being ourselves in our internal, you know, introspective world. And finding that balance, I think, is is the work of a lifetime.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Well, Serena, I don't I don't think it's that serious. Okay. I mean, you you I mean, some people maybe adjust more easily than I do, but uh I think just understanding and noting that this is part of the job. This is not two jobs, this is one job. And and part of this job is to quietly do your work with all the method and wisdom that you can conjure up and make your work the best work it can be. And then the second part of it is to make it public and to and to actually go out and promote it, you know, and it's part if you can't you can't say, at least I haven't been able to say all my life, maybe when I get even older, I'll be able to say, no more. You know, I'm not gonna do any of this promotion any anymore. But I don't think so. And and often uh I enjoy it too. I enjoy sharing and I enjoy uh telling people about my work and my life in ways that I think will enhance their perception of my work itself.

SPEAKER_03 49:28

So there is that element of also being able to communicate, I think, from a place of love for your craft itself, which goes back to what you said earlier about the why. Why are you making this thing? Why are you doing this thing? Why do you want to share it? And I think when you are connected to your why in that strong sense, it makes it easier. You know, every time you revisit it, maybe even on the 10th or the hundredth time you're talking about that work, it still feels like a privilege, it still feels like something to be grateful for, something you feel joy and you feel, you know, I still want to do this. I still care about this enough to share it with other people.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

Totally, totally. I you just remind me of uh something that happened to me when I was in Japan one year promoting my film called The Peach Blossom Land, which is based on the play you talked about, The Secret Love in Peach Blossom Land. And I was flown into Tokyo, went straight to a hotel room where all of the interviews were lined up, and again, it was like 10 in a row. And of course, this was all through a translator. And by late afternoon, my translator was so good that she listened to the question, which was posed by a very serious uh media interviewer. And then and then she listened for about a minute to the question, and then she said, Um, Mr. Lai, I'll answer the question for you because I know what you're gonna say, and you can have a rest. That was so wonderful. It was like, wow, you know, because it's what you say, we we need sometimes we repeat ourselves, although I don't like repeating myself, but sometimes we do. If you ask me about a certain play, I will tell you about it in the best way I can. And that way has been refined over decades. Yeah. So it's great to get a translator who understands that.

unknown 51:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Well, I want to appreciate you so much for taking the time today to share your wisdom, your perspective on creativity, the creative process, what it's like from your point of view after 40 years in the industry, and how to how to maintain that creative connection for each of us who, as you say, we are all creative in some way, but we hold ourselves back. And how can we be more creative or allow more of that to show? And the connection with being introspective, but at the same time being able to rise to the occasion and talk about the work at the right time. So it's been such a wonderful conversation with you, Stan, and I really appreciate you for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

I really have enjoyed it and also really enjoy and commend you for this whole thing about quiet warrior and introspective people. Um, and we're so little appreciated, I guess. But I think I I do I do consider myself one of yours uh introspective, but I don't think that it's uh it's a handicap in any way. I think in fact it's a benefit. You know, I think it's a real benefit to be able to be to be able to shut off the world and to be able to be with yourself, because that's what life is in the end. You're you have to face everything, and you have to face it with a clear, clear mind. And the silence and the emptiness is what creates everything for you. So I'm with all of you, introspective people. I I I I really consider myself one of you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 53:05

Thank you. To be seen without having to act extroverted, join the visible introvert community at serenaloe.com.au. This is where I share the skills on how to be memorable and impactful without changing or diluting the essence of who you are. See you on the next episode. I'm so grateful that you're here today. If you found this content valuable, please share it on your social media channels and subscribe to the show on your favorite listening platform. Together we can help more introverts thrive. To receive more uplifting content like this, connect with me on Instagram at Serenalo Quiet Warrior Coach. Thank you for sharing your time and your energy with me. See you on the next episode.