146. Letting Go of the Stone You Didn't Bring: A Pilgrimage Through Grief, Loss, and Transition (Alexander Ee)

There is a particular kind of stiffness that comes from believing your intellect is the only thing that will get you through. You put forward the version of yourself that has the answers, the version that never lets the mask slip, because somewhere along the way you learned that being seen as capable was the same thing as being safe. Then life takes the choice out of your hands. A cancer diagnosis. A five-year survival window. A 925-kilometer walk across France and Spain with nothing but a change of clothes and a set of questions you thought you had already answered.

This week's guest is Alexander Ee, a former lawyer, management consultant, and corporate real estate executive who left a decades-long career in the boardroom to walk the Camino de Santiago after losing his wife, Regina, to cancer. What began as an attempt to outrun grief became something closer to a reckoning: with the mask of competence he had worn since childhood, with what it means to let people see him without it, and with a small stone he almost didn't pick up. Alexander shares the story behind his book, A Glimpse of Heaven, and what quiet courage actually looks like when the applause isn't the point.

Questions Answered in This Episode

• What is the Camino de Santiago, and why do people walk it after loss?
• How do you know when you're performing competence instead of being yourself?
• What does the "stone tradition" at Cruz de Ferro mean, and why is it hard to let go?
• How does faith help someone process grief and rebuild a sense of purpose?
• Why do quiet, retiring people sometimes step forward when it matters most?
• What can someone navigating grief or a major life transition take away from this story?

Key Takeaways

• The exhaustion of always having to look like you have the answers, and the relief of finally letting that go
• Realizing that the friends who saw every flaw were the ones who made you feel most accepted
• The strange, almost physical weight of carrying something you haven't admitted you need to release
• Discovering that purpose doesn't arrive as a plan, it arrives as a talent you're willing to lend to someone else
• Watching a quiet, retiring friend step into the spotlight exactly when the moment called for it, and realizing that same courage lives in all of us
• Learning to take grief one day at a time, rather than trying to picture an entire life without the person in it

Notable Quote

"You can command your fingers to open, and then they don't."

Chapter Approximate Timestamps 

00:00 – Introduction to Alexander Ee

00:53 – From law to consulting to corporate real estate

02:08 – His wife Regina's cancer diagnosis and the decision to stay home 04:48 – Rediscovering faith through prayer and humility

08:27 – What really inspired the Camino de Santiago

11:34 – Dropping the mask: discovering he was "quite likable"

19:51 – The stone he almost didn't bring, and letting go at Cruz de Ferro

26:05 – How grief still resurfaces, and where he finds comfort

28:19 – Finding purpose through talents used for others

31:09 – Money, achievement, and mistaking identity for what doesn't last

36:23 – Turning an annual pilgrimage into a fundraiser

37:15 – Community, quiet courage, and the ethos of the Quiet Warrior

39:33 – The friend who stepped up when it mattered

42:12 – A message for anyone navigating grief or transition

43:34 – Alex’s book, A Glimpse of Heaven: Grief, Self and Community on the Camino

About the Guest

Alexander Ee is a former lawyer, management consultant, and corporate real estate executive based in Singapore. After the passing of his wife, Regina, he walked the 925-kilometer Camino de Santiago, an experience that led him to write A Glimpse of Heaven: Grief, Self and Community on the Camino, currently available in bookstores in Singapore. He has since completed the pilgrimage three times and now works for a Singapore charity, with this year's walk serving as a fundraiser.

About the Host Serena Low

I'm Serena Low, former lawyer turned Root-Cause Coach, and I work with professional women on one question: should you stay and rebuild, or leave on your own terms. It starts with one Diagnostic Call, where we get underneath the stress to what's actually driving it — the root cause beneath the symptoms. Book your call HERE.

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This episode was edited by Aura House Productions

Transcript

Meet Alex And His Turning Point

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Today's guest is a former senior corporate executive, consultant, and lawyer who after a life-changing 925-kilometer walk on the Camino de Santiago decided to change direction and devote his life to the service of others. A fun fact, we were classmates in law school, but in true introvert fashion, we never had an actual conversation. This year we're finally reconnected through a mutual friend. So welcome, Alexander E to the Quiet Warrior Podcast. It's so good to meet again, and I'm very much looking forward to this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Hi, Serena. Thanks for having me. Yeah, and it's very good to reconnect again after so long.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Indeed

From Law To Corporate Life

SPEAKER_01 0:43

it is. So let's talk about what your professional journey has been like after law school and how has that changed in recent years?

SPEAKER_00 0:51

So I started uh as a lawyer, you know, and that's one of those things that is an accepted profession in Singapore. You you finish uh high school A levels, then you decide to do whatever it is, whatever course you can get yourself into. And um very soon after starting practice, I realized that uh that was not something I really enjoyed because I wanted to be more uh comprehensive, I wanted to be where the business was rather than provide providing advice at the back end. So, and that's why I decided to get myself an MBA. And then shortly after that, as all good MBA students are, they go and become either consultants or investment bankers. I became a consultant. But again, very soon after starting that, I realized that all I was doing was advising and not uh and not making the decisions. And I also got fired because I got into a TIFF with my project leader. So uh, but that's how I ended up in uh in the corporate setting and specifically in real estate, and that's where I've been since 2007, six, I think it's 2006 until recently. Um and then I well recently meaning two years ago, uh, with uh in with a few interim breaks because I had to stay at home to look to be with um uh my late wife who was um suffering from cancer.

Caring For A Partner Through Cancer

SPEAKER_01 2:21

So let's talk about that as well, because that would have been a life-altering moment for you, which becomes for for many of us, I think it becomes like a before and after. And also it happened at quite a I think it's set in the context of what later happened. It also created some really challenging times for you. So what helped you to find comfort during that period and what kept you moving?

SPEAKER_00 2:52

So um there were so my wife, late wife was diagnosed with cancer in 2014. And um very soon after that, I realized that if I was going to be true to my marriage vows, um I I would have to uh devote my life to her and stay at home and look after her. Um, and that was probably the best decision um that I've ever taken. Um, because the family our family uh came together and the last few years of our lives, life together were the were one of the best. Um, because we could we grew closer, the family grew closer, our children uh saw us every day. Well, maybe that's not a good thing. I mean, maybe they they might disagree, but I think it's a good thing. Um and then she passed away in 2019, and obviously you feel like the rug has been pulled out from under you. Um, but that led to um a desire to go on a very long walk, which is the Camino di Santiago. But before I get to that, I mean your question was how did I cope? Um, I think it was primarily through my faith, as well as the very many good friends that we had around us who were constantly showing their love for us by checking up on us, um, asking us out, you know, be meeting up with us as often as possible, um, comforting us when we were in difficulty, um, and just being being there for us. And I'm deeply, deeply appreciative of them, of them.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yes. You mentioned your faith

Faith, Humility And Letting Others In

SPEAKER_01 4:40

as well. Tell us a bit more about your faith.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

So I'm Catholic, um, a very nominal Catholic until about 2014. Uh and then when my wife was, late wife was diagnosed with cancer, you suddenly realized that there's and she when she was diagnosed, it was stage four already. So she was given about 10% probability of surviving past five years. Um, and you you really suddenly realize that you know all the habits that you've built up over life of being entirely in control of your own destiny, uh, of you know, of and especially in corporate life where you think you're the master of the universe, you think that everything is possible with sufficient will and thought. You realize that it's not the case in life. Um and so you resort to prayer. And that and I think there's that there's a with prayer and there comes the disposition of humility and the realization that um it's not all you, that somebody else is in control. And um the moment you take on, or at least in my case, the moment I took on that disposition, um, all the you know, the barrier, the walls started falling. Uh, I started becoming more open to people around me. I started realizing that I was dependent on others and that it was not, you know, my whatever success that I had, uh, however little or however much, was really not really thanks to many other things beyond just who I was, you know, and it was I am a product of circumstance. Um and then with prayer comes also uh a realization that um God has many other plans for us. Um and once in a while he would throw, you know, he would remind me that he's still around, and that would provide a lot of comfort, um, and true leaps and bounds. And the funny thing about uh faith is that you're not really very sure what you're striving for because um you have no conception of what it is. How do you seek something that you have no knowledge of, especially something as ephemeral, as as intangible as God? Um, but you only do it because you are um other people have told you it's worthwhile. You believe the Bible, you believe that Jesus Christ was uh was who he said he was, and you keep trying. And the great irony is that once you keep trying, you actually do find. And through, and then when you find, it gives provides reinforcement to keep trying, which then gives allows you to keep finding, and then once you find you and through stages, um you grow as a person and in your faith. But bad hab old habits also come uh um come back, and very very often I'm very disobedient and uh and sometimes I doubt still. But on the whole, I'm much better off today than I was previously. I think some i I'll have to leave it to others to decide that.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

That will be your perspective, and there'll be those who have been witnessing your journey and your growth and noticing the changes.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Lack of growth or lack of it. I I so I really don't want to say where I am, but I do know for myself that I am more joyful and more at peace.

Why He Walked The Camino

SPEAKER_01 8:20

So, what inspired you to embark on the Camino journey?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Um I was trying to run away. So the Camino, so my wife, late wife passed away in 2019, and by the way, she beat the odds. She she lived past five years. So, and in a sense, God answered my prayers, and God also threaded the needle because she passed away in November and 2019, and lo and behold, in January, um COVID emerged, and um it COVID was a really difficult period for many people, for many people who lost their loved ones with uh restrictions on sizes of wakes, sizes of funerals. I would have been completely devastated if I had not been able to have um Regina see the number of people that came for her wakes and her funeral. Um so in 2021, um, living through COVID uh with my children beside me, but I knew that my children were going to be leaving home in 2022. And I decided that I needed to leave home as well because no point staying at home and being surrounded by everything familiar and feeling lonely about it. So I decided that I would leave uh go for the Camino. In the end, I decided I left I landed on March 2023. Uh, and that gave me, and it was prime it was primarily just to run away and seek adventure in the world. But a very coincidental meeting with a priest friend um very pointedly told me, you know, look, um my late wife, her name is Regina, uh, had a purpose in life. She's finished that purpose and now she's gone home, and God has called her home. You had a purpose to look after her whilst you were she was alive, and you did that. Now that purpose is over, and you need to find new purpose. And if you keep looking backwards, you're being disobedient to God and to whatever new purpose he has for you. So the decide the decision to go on the Camino transformed from one of adventure to becoming one of trying to find purpose in life. Uh and I found it in spades. I mean, the Camino was life-changing for so many reasons, it's a wonderful walk. Uh, I decided maybe perversely to go on an extended version of it. So I walked 925 kilometers um over two months, and it was a very life-giving and very transforming, transformative uh uh two months of my life.

Dropping The Mask And Being Likeable

SPEAKER_03 11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Now, in one of your interviews, Alex, you mentioned that you discovered you were actually quite likable. Yes, I was quite intrigued by that by that self-reflection. What's that about?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Um, I'm a bit embarrassed. Um I'm very stiff as the person. I've always been very stiff from when I was very young. And I always assumed that my intellect was what would get me through anything, right? Um, and that I and that I was assessed and judged based on that. So you always put you know, put forward a demeanor of knowing everything, of being able to give that just the right amount of insight during conversations to you know to say to show everybody look you you know what uh you know what the answers should be. Um and then obviously with my late wife's passing and realizing I don't have control over myself, over anything really, and then going on the Camino and suddenly realizing as you're walking through rural France and Spain, that um you really do need other people. And rather than put forward a mask that really wasn't at the end of the day, um me, or it was me, but you know, with the realization that that's just that's not all of me. Um I started to just reveal to people all my faults, all my weaknesses, the difficulties that I was experiencing in life, the questions that I had. Then I find out that other people have the same. Uh and then not only that, they appreciate the the honesty with which I'm I'm speaking. So I became the village idiot on the Camino where I was just basically talking to everybody who wanted to talk to me and babbling away, uh, regardless of whether they would listen or not. And most of the time they did, thankfully. And and then uh by increments, I realized that you know there were people who accepted me for who I was. And that was an incredibly refreshing and wonderful turn. Um and despite all my faults, despite all uh despite all the insecurities, the difficulties that I'm experiencing, uh I just you know uh bat my soul and found that people accepted me for who I was. That was nice, and it was nice to relight on those terms.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

I think that speaks a lot to how much we mask, how much we feel we have to perform, yeah, and how conditional I think that sense of success or acceptance is, that it's always contingent upon reaching a certain kind of standard. And it's always outwards, I noticed that we we look outward to other people to validate us, to give us that approval, to give us that permission to feel good about ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Yes. And I I mean, unfortunately, that's that's the life that has been, you know, um just life that we've been conditioned to be and and to put forward. Um I remember in in business school when I was studying, and they were they were, you know, when you are doing interviews, you are expected to all you what was drilled into us is to always portray confidence, to always, you know, um confidence, to always not reveal any weaknesses, so-called. Uh, and to always appear as if you're in control of what's whatever is happening. And you know, you go into so you go into an interview with you know, all pumped up and forceful and leaning forward on the table and basically just you know engaging people directly in eye contact. And I always used to wonder, um, really, is everybody like that? Because most of the time people don't know what's going on. And they aren't as uh, I mean, and if they say they do, they're probably um, I wouldn't say fooling themselves, but you know, it they they they probably haven't got the the entire picture. Who does really know everything? Um and then, but at the same time, you have to play the game because everybody does that, right? Everybody, those are the expectations, and therefore everybody complies with those expectations, and then this vicious cycle perpetuates itself. Um which I I will I'm I'm glad to say I broke, I'm I left, and I'm much happier for it.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

I'm glad you framed it as playing a game. I think a lot of us play the game without being conscious that we are playing, that it's a game set up by somebody else, that it's been there for a long time. There are all these rules, you follow those rules, you you learn how to win and you avoid losing, but then you also lose yourself along the way to the game.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

I mean it and the statistics will show it, right? People do get the people do get uh in companies, people are asked to to uh leave because of poor performance. You know, there's I wouldn't say widespread, but there's there is clearly a lot of dissatisfaction that that bosses have. And I would admit I'm one I was one of those. I would, you know, I would interview somebody, that person would you know portray his complete confidence in whatever he was being interviewed for. I would bring him in, and then after that, I would be dissatisfied with the work, um, based on the standards that I've set, rather than anything objective. Um, and that which then calls into question in the entire interview that I originally did in the first place, um, because obviously uh I got it wrong. Somewhere along the line, I got it wrong, whether it's at the interview or in the expectations that I had of uh of people. But that process continues to perpetuate itself because other people will ask you, how did you end up, you know, they will perform the the performance review process, the feedback from other the 360s sometimes that happen all continue to reinforce those expectations that we all need to be masters of the universe.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

And some people are. Some people are really very good. Um, but by and large, most people, I and I will count myself in it in that in that group, aren't what aren't they good at? Um at there's some people just truly brilliant and who are able to see things in in ways in which I would never be able to uh arrive at, and as a result, come up with the at with decisions which are probably more right than wrong. Uh I would probably say that most of my decisions are more, I wouldn't say I wouldn't, I can't know, because once you've made a decision, you've excluded all other possibilities.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Right? And then therefore, through just through sheer force of will, you try to make your decision work, but it with a lot of aggravation along the process. Um, but I've met people who have that insight, that ability to just say, no, this is the right way. And things seem to just so easily fall into place after that. But those are few and far between.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Yes. So let's say that's the the top five percent.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

The rest of us are just doing our best.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Sometimes muddling along, but then also having to perform to hide that we are muddling along. And so we we get discouraged from asking the questions that make us look like we don't know.

unknown 19:29

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Because they might reflect on our competence.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah.

The Stone He Did Not Bring

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Tell us about the stone story. I I found that quite fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Oh, on uh cruise de ferro on the camino?

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Yes. Um a stone you didn't bring.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Yes, that actually it should be the it that should be the title of the chapter. Um I was on the Camino for two reasons. One to find to as for adventure, and the other to find purpose. And when I had decided that it was because I was supposed to find purpose, I thought that um I was over. I had I had I wasn't I didn't need to grieve anymore. That uh I was I had accepted my late wife's passing and that I was I was okay. Um so then as I was, and so I I walked um almost two-thirds of the Camino from France to Spain um with that assumption. And then the day before this place called the Cruz de Ferro, Cruz de Ferro is uh Spanish for the Iron Cross. Um and the tradition at the Iron Cross is that you are supposed to bring us you're supposed to leave a stone behind, which you brought, which you're supposed to have brought from home. And that stone is supposed to represent whatever it is that you want to let go of. Right? And I thought, well, I there's nothing I need to let go because I'm really perfectly adjusted, and I was going on the Camino with fine purpose. Um and so I I didn't see the need to bring a stone. Um, and then the day before this uh arriving at Cruz de Faro, the strangest of thoughts came into my head. Um, and that thought and simultaneous with that thought was me seeing a stone, no other stone, there were millions of stones on the path. I just saw one stone, and the thought was you need a stone. And I saw that stone at the same time. Uh I can only say that that is uh divine intervention. I picked up that stone if and I I say that for because for sub um for because of subsequent events. Uh I picked up that stone. I was really puzzled. It's tiny, no bigger than a marble. And I was modeling the question, why do I need the stone? In hindsight, it's a really stupid question because it was really obvious, right? But at that time I thought, you know, I'm I'm okay. I don't need the stone. So why do I need the stone? Why do I why did I pick it up? And I um kept walking. I asked my friends on my on my chat group, uh, what's the stone about? And then they poured in overnight with with answers, um, all of which I didn't believe. I said, no, this can't be right. Right. I mean, most of them were about, you know, you need to let go, and etc., etc. And then as I kept walking, the weight of that stone kept growing, um, not physically, but the mental weight to the point where, the mental, the emotional weight, to the point where one kilometer away, one, two kilometers away from Cruz de Ferro, I suddenly realized and accepted that yes, it was about Regina, my late wife, um, and that I needed to offer it up and just give it up. And then the last two kilometers were really agonizing. Um, then I arrived at Cruz de Fero, um, parked myself about fifty but maybe about 50 meters away from it, sat down, um, realizing the weight of what it meant, and then basically just started crying um and and sobbing. And I was texting on my group, on the chat group, my friends uh from Singapore and different parts of the world were messaging me, some were calling me to tell to reassure me that everything was okay, and I was stuck there for about a good one hour, and I couldn't let go. And then the thought occurred that wait a minute, you know, obviously you were meant to pick up that stone, otherwise, the events of yesterday would not have happened. And given the significance of Crus de Ferro, you are meant to let go. Um I said, okay, well, God is telling telling me something. So I said, Okay, in trust, I'm gonna let go. I walked to the to the iron cross, to the base of the iron cross, and then let go that's of that stone, and that was the single most difficult thing I've ever had to do. Um you can command your fingers to open, and then they don't they didn't. You just you you you it's it was almost uh an act of sheer will to say it's open and let go. And I did. Um and then every day after that, I felt lighter and lighter, lighter and lighter. Um to the point where I at the end of the Camino, um I just I with all the everything that I experienced, I decided that this was I had to come I had to share my story, which is why I wrote my book. Um I had to share my story in the hope that it may help others. I don't know whether it will help many people, but in the hope that some people will will identify with the story and and as a result uh receive some cons uh consolation from it. Um and that probably was the single most life-changing event uh for me on the Camino, and for that matter for my life.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Thank you for sharing that. I remember reading, and I think I've also experienced this myself, that grief comes in waves. So sometimes just when we think we have completely let go, it comes back again.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

So in letting go of that storm, do you feel that you've completely let go or since then, you know, does it still come back in some way?

SPEAKER_00 26:12

It it does, but I'm reassured um of several things. One is that um Regina is in a place which where she's being taken care of in a in a much better way than I could ever do on earth. Um and that gives me a lot of uh hopefully because um I know that she's happy. I was very happy when I finished my Camino, which is why I called my book A Glimpse of Heaven, because I caught uh what I thought was a glimpse of perfection because of the behavior, not because of the surroundings, but because of the behavior, the very good, virtuous behavior of the people around me. Uh, how everybody was looking out for each other, uh, how there was genuine, authentic conversations, how there was inherent acceptance of everybody, you know, watch and all. And if that was my glimpse and I was so happy, if that was all there is there is to heaven, I would be very happy for uh my late wife. So that has given me a lot of comfort, and as a result, um in a sense, I don't feel I still feel I still miss her occasionally, right? Especially on anniversaries. And I also see how her absence from my children's life life affects them.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

So um it's not something I think that anybody will ever give up. But I I do think that um well with with what I've realized, um I'm very comforted and uh I'm quite desperate to find uh to find purpose now. And I think I have. I wrote a book, took me two years of my life where I didn't and and and then and that led to a few other things, and it also led me to the charity that I'm currently working at.

Purpose, Talent And Serving Others

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Do you think that purpose is something that reveals itself to us in that each of us has got a specific purpose, a specific mission that we've been placed on earth to fulfill?

SPEAKER_00 28:39

Uh yes. Um I but with my Catholic perspective, uh so I'm gonna say something that's very controversial, that would be very controversial to uh to other Catholics, for that matter, to other Christians. Um there's very little in the in the Bible that talks about any specific job that we're supposed to take. Um the the the commands are very simple from God, right? Um love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Um, and then he gives examples of what loving means, like for example, feed the poor, clothe the clothe the naked, visit people in prison. Um, it also talks about how you are supposed to use the talents that the whatever talents you have um and and and magnify their impact. Um so I for me what it has uh boiled down to is that um I accept that I I probably am talented in some some ways, um, but I'm going to be using those talents for the good of other people, at least as much as I I can try. And sometimes I may fail, but I'll try my best. Um and just by doing that, I found a lot of fulfillment and um and peace in it, and I really enjoy what I'm doing. Um and I at the very minimum, I think everybody is called to do that, to what with whatever talents we have, however much or however little to be used for the betterment of the people around us, of society of people of society and the people around us. And I think by doing that, um we will in turn find uh the peace and happiness that we all yearn for. I mean, before I even realize this, looking back, um in the past when I would take part in the occasional charity event, I really find I really enjoyed it because I took so much away from the fact that I was whatever little I was doing, somebody was grateful and somebody was uh was appreciative of it. And that I that gave me so much. Um, but of course, life gets in the way, you start, you don't think that way most of the time, especially when you're desperately trying to build a career and and uh and and earn money. And you think that the measure of uh success is how much you have in your bank account, uh, which I've realized it is it's important. But uh and it's also difficult for people who don't have enough, um it's it's very hard to accept that there's something else that should take its place. Um but for I with whatever I have, I try to uh do as much give as much help as possible, and there will be criticisms if I accept it.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

What you're saying is I think it's really important we are acknowledging that yes, some of us are struggling. Yes, it's true that we do need money in order to have a good life, but beyond that, I think there are things that we may have forgotten that are just as important or more important than the money and the achievement and the titles and the job status. I think the the difficulty is when it becomes the identity, when we confuse the external things with who we are fundamentally. And that becomes part of we we mistake the the material, the things that don't actually last with things that give us true purpose and meaning. And sometimes it's we we wish it doesn't always have to be a wake-up call or some crisis that provokes us to think about these things more deeply. Every time something happens, we're like, okay, you know, now I will take this thing seriously. I will I will look at my life, I will look at my values, I'll re-evaluate everything. But it's so tempting to then just, you know, drift because everybody else is doing that, to just go back to that old pattern, to just keep going quite comfortably, maybe, until something else happens again that shakes us up. So it's it seems like we need those reminders that we are here for a bigger purpose and to do other things, not just to take care of ourselves, but also I think what you're alluding to, being a good steward of the gifts and talents that we have been blessed with.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Yes. I mean that you that's that's exactly right. Um I can't say that I have a prescription for how everybody in the world should live because you know, we all have such infinitely varied circumstances. Um, some people will say that I have the luxury of speaking the way I have, because you know, I am I have been successful. Um but and I can't say that you know it's it's terrible to have the nice trappings of life around me because it is nice. And every day I try, but I've I will say this though uh on the Camino when you're walking with uh your backpack and you're just carrying three sets of clothes, um, your toiletries and um whatever emergency supplies you need, that was the it was such a fulfilling um and simple way of living. It was such a simple way of living, but it was so liberating to not have anything and to just never mind, let's go and live life anyway.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yes. It's that freedom of not having to chase after something, especially when that something keeps moving and you never quite get there. I think it's uh it leads to a sense of dissatisfaction, uh a lack of a lack of meaning. Because you you keep chasing, you never quite get there, or even when you get there, you don't feel happy because there's always something in this. It's not enough. It's never enough, and it's not meant to be enough. I think it's uh it's a system we've created for ourselves that sabotages our own unhappiness, sabotages our happiness by requiring us constantly to keep putting in or consuming at the expense of who you're meant to be. Your your essential, you know, your humanity, your divine spark, your creativity, where we're not designed to live like this, to be constantly expending energy, chasing things, chasing titles, chasing money. It's supposed to be simpler. And so I think that that village that you encountered and that you have then deliberately built after your Camino walk. And I think you've done it twice more, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

In in the years since I've done one, two. Yes, I've done two. So I've done three in

Quiet Leadership, Community And Fundraising

SPEAKER_00 36:09

total. So my first was in twenty, yeah.

unknown 36:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

First is in 2023, second was in 2024, third was in 2025. And this year I'm doing another one.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Okay. So it's becoming an annual pilgrimage.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

Uh this time it's uh slightly different. It's going to be used as a fundraising for the charity that I work at.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Uh yeah, and so it's it's actually gonna take a very different form now. It's it is still a pilgrimage of sorts, but the purpose is very real. I really have to finish it. And it's a bit scary, actually.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Because last time I was working for myself. Now I'm working for somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

It's a bit scary.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

And that actually ties in really nicely with the ethos of the quiet warrior. So the the purpose of this podcast and the people we are speaking with and encouraging through our conversation here is that I think in each of us there is that warrior who, even though we are afraid, we may be fearful, we may feel inadequate, we may, you know, really lack the skills to do the thing that we are being called to do. But I think what you have shown is when you come together in community with others who are on a similar pilgrimage, on a similar journey, and each of you is bringing something different to it. You're not saying, you know, I have to do this all by myself. I'm not just relying on my own strength or my own wisdom or my own experience. I'm saying I'm going to partner with all these wonderful people and we're going to do this together. And I'm not, I don't have all the answers, and that's okay. I can ask for help, I can be helpful to somebody else, and all of us are going to keep, you know, walking together, you know, waiting for the ones to catch up, or maybe asking for the help we need when we stumble, encouraging each other along the way. I think that is really a glimpse of heaven in that that is the kind of world we all want to live in. And I think that you are part of co-creating that in your new work.

SPEAKER_00 38:06

And for the people who you know who are sometimes in the background, in the right circumstances, um, for example, when there's a certain set of talents are required to be brought to bear, which the rest of the team doesn't have, and then they step forward and say, Okay, you know, this is something that I can do, and then the rest of the team follows. Um it is it is I'm in awe of of what um everybody around me and this the many skills, the the instances versus of heroism and leadership that everybody inherently has, which they step forward and say, No, let me do this, because this is something that I'm comfortable with. There are things that I'm extremely uncomfortable with, and I'll be incredibly grateful when somebody steps forward and says, Let me take this over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Yeah. And I think it's recognizing that in ourselves. So having the courage, if you are that quiet achiever who's listening to this conversation, and you're thinking there is something you want to do, but you're afraid to do it. But you also know that if you don't do it, if you don't say yes, if you don't step up, somebody else could be missing out. Somebody else might not get served because you didn't speak up. So this is an encouragement to you to listen to yourself, to tune in, to to find the courage inside you because you do have it. We all have that courage.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Let me give in, let me tell you a uh a story that that happened over the past few months, uh few years. I won't specify the specific year because then you'll be able to pinpoint who it is that I'm talking about. Um, so there was a particular context where you know I was really uncomfortable in, and um, but I had to be I was asked to be to interact with a very large group of people. Um and then I had a friend who was with me who's um who I wouldn't say you know he's he's just awkward, but he was there to support me. Um and most of the time he's very retiring and very quiet. Um but then in that setting where you know I had to interact with a large group of people, he stepped forward and he said, and he said, you know, let me these are the people that I can talk to, let me take over. Uh and I said, Oh, please do. And and he just took over the event, he was the life of the party. Um and I was sat back and I was just in so much awe of him. And it's not something it's not a part of him that I see because most other times it was not this set of circumstances, and therefore he his set of skills weren't required until those circumstances arose. So, you know, to your listeners, I would encourage them to step forward and say, let me take charge of this. And to the people who sometimes uh uh see um the less the more retiring people as you know it's not having anything to contribute, I would say uh give yourself the freedom to allow others other people to express themselves, and you'll be surprised at the results.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Beautiful.

Grief Advice, Book And Closing

SPEAKER_01 41:41

What is one thing you want listeners to who are navigating grief or loss or a major life transition to take away today?

SPEAKER_00 41:53

I have two things. Uh one is you're loved um by God and by the by the loved ones around you. Um and the other is just take things one day at a time. Um I think very often we feel very overwhelmed when at least I did. I'm assuming that everybody else is in the same position. When you start to try and project and see, you know, and when and try to envision a life without the loved one in it. And when you I mean that's that's a surefire, surefire way to spiral into a lot of despair. Um things will get better, or at least they have for me. And um, but all we have to do is just take one step at a time um and not think too far ahead. Live for the moment.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Thank you. I think that's immensely comforting, immensely helpful for all of us. So your book is called A Glimpse of Heaven: Brief, Self, and Community on the Camino. Now, where is this available? I know it's in all the good bookstores in Singapore.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

Yes, I'm working on getting it published internationally. Uh it's just that uh ever since I've started this job, I've been so busy. I haven't actually had a time to get round to making the because making the edits necessary to for it to be ready uh internationally. I have to change or at least include imperial weights and distances because everything is in kilograms and uh centimeters and right and and kilometers. Um and some friends have come forward, some friends of the communal whom I anonymized in my original book, I have said they would they wouldn't mind if their real names were used, which then means I have to go back and read the book and and and find their names and then and change their names to the real thing. So I will have it out. I just don't know when.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Okay. We shall look forward to it with great anticipation. Alex, thank you so much for coming on the Quiet Warrior Podcast today.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

I it's been my pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

I am so grateful to be to reconnect, but also to hear how much has changed for you and how you yourself have been transformed in the last couple of years with everything that you've gone through, but also everything you've taken on consciously and deliberately. I think this is an example of quiet leadership that we can all reflect on and emulate for a greater good.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Um thank you for having me on. And it was, I mean, I really enjoyed this. Uh, it's allowed me to also reflect on my on what's happened to me in the past few years. Um, not sure whether anything was particularly helpful, but no, I just throw it out there and I let the world decide.

SPEAKER_01 44:53

Yes, I think that's the best we can do. We plant the seed and you know the ripple continues by itself, and that's the exciting part. It's the mysterious part. It's we we want to know you know the end of the story. We want to know what the how far it goes, but I don't think that is that is our part. Yeah, I think we can leave it as a mystery. We can leave it as a mystery, a it a very good kind of mystery.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Yeah. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Thank you very much for having me.