Ep.121: Why Minerals Fix What Protocols Can't with Lisa Pitel-Killah of Vykon Customs

Minerals are often the missing link in any health related concern AND the biggest needle mover for individuals who have "tried everything". 

If you've done the SIBO protocol, the parasite cleanse, the supplement stack, and your body still isn't responding, this episode is probably the piece you've been missing. Lisa Pitel-Killah is the founder of Vykon Customs and one of the people I trust most in the mineral world (I did my HTMA level one and level two training with her), and in this conversation we cover why minerals have to come before every other protocol, what's actually driving estrogen dominant symptoms that never show on a hormone panel, the truth about calcium supplements and constipation, how to think about binders like humic/fulvic and zeolite, and the clinical reason most gut protocols plateau before they should. Whether you are an individual struggling with health concerns or a practitioner curious about minerals, this is a great listen! 

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Vykon Customs Website

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Vykon Customs Instagram

Lisa's podcast (The Human Optimization Podcast)

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Transcript

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1:11

Welcome back to the next episode of the Love Your Gut podcast. I am so excited today to be joined by a guest, Lisa. She is a mineral guru and the founder of ViCon Customs, and I personally have learned so much from her. I did HCMA and mineral training with her in her level one and level two program, and continue to learn from her. And so I'm so excited for her to be here, because we are going to chat all things minerals and HCMA testing, and why this matters so much. So Lisa, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for the invitation. I am so looking forward to our conversation. Well, I've been so excited about it, and my team has been so excited about it, 'cause as you know, we are, we are fans of HCMA, we are fans of ViCon, and we've been, like, compiling a list of like, "Oh, we gotta ask Lisa that when she's on the podcast." So we're so, so excited. But let's just kick it off. Like, why, why do you care so much about minerals, and what led you to do this work and then open a company solely focused on this? My... We don't have enough time for that story. Let me- Well, we're here all day. Yeah, right. So however, however long. Let me, let me give you the Coles Notes. So I, I mean, always been into health and wellness. I started skating when I was three and a half years old. Competitive figure skater a lot of my life. Avid runner. You know, I went through my own share of trauma along the way and things like that. We all do, right? That's life. When I was in my mid-30s, I was actually in the restaurant business for a long time. My parents were not very happy. I always tell this story 'cause I think it's quite funny. 'Cause I went to university and I s- I, I got an honors in, in commerce with finance and accounting as my background. And so I graduated, and they were like, "Oh, you're gonna go get a job at a bank or an investment firm and do all these things," right? And I'm like, "Well, I think I'm just gonna take some time and, you know, find a, a bartending job." And they're like, "What? What are you talking about?" But that bartending job taught me a lot. It also put- took me through burnout. I was a restaurateur after that. I had... You know, we opened and closed restaurants, sold restaurants, did all kinds of things. Mm. So, uh, so it taught me a lot, but really taught me more about my health and how you have to really pay attention. So the last restaurant that I opened, it was, uh, in a bit of a recession, economic recession, so it was a bit of a challenge. Probably one of the biggest challenges. From a business perspective, I learned a lot, but I also burned out, and that... And it, it's... You know, when you're in your 20s and you push a little too hard, especially when you're type A like me, go, go, go, you can bounce back. fairly easily. When you're in your 30s, that gets a little harder. When you're in your 40s, that gets even harder, right? We have to be... This is why when you're older you're more wise, because we learn from all the things that we've done to ourselves, right? And so, so yeah, so I had to nurse myself back through that. And again, always taking an interest in health, you know, always being, uh, active. I got to a point where I, I was working with a naturopath, did live blood cell analysis. She's like, "This is the best that I've seen." And I looked at her and I said, "Why, then why do I still feel like I'm not myself anymore?" Mm. I don't have the energy that I need. I am still estrogen dominant. I was getting iron infusions. I was getting B12 shots, and it was just all the things. So I finally found, uh, someone in functional diagnostics that I got introduced to, and I, and I started with this gentleman, and he put me through all the testing, all the diagnostic testing, GI map, and I had giardia, and then I had C. diff, and I worked through all these things. And it wasn't until a colleague said to me, "Lisa, I, I know you've been working through all this, but you still have this kind of chronic fatigue issue, right? And you've still got estrogen dominance. Have you... Like, test your hair." And I was like, "What are you talking about, test my hair," right? And by this time I'd been at health and wellness for a while, and working on myself for a long time. And I thought, "Well, what's... Like, I have nothing to lose." And then I got on a call with Dr. Malter. So anybody who knows about minerals knows Dr. Malter, right? And Rick told me, he's like, "Lisa, you have copper at the bottom of your problem." And I was like, "What does that mean? Tell..." And now I'm like a sponge, right? Tell me what that means. And, and that was it. And I thought, you know, started mineral balancing, things started changing, my energy was different. Like I just, I actually started to feel like I was going down the path that I should be going down, right? And I thought to myself, "If I had found this test 10 years ago, how many tens of thousands of dollars would I have saved on protocols and f- you know, my three pages of supplements and all the things," right? Mm. And, and so that's really where my passion came from. I saw it change me, and now I've seen it change tens of thousands of people. And Vicon really came from my clients' challenges, because I had a clinic, uh, that I was part of, and I would have clients come in and I would put together a protocol, what I would consider the most effective protocol. I'd send them home with this box of supplements, you know, that was, I don't know, maybe $800 for three months, and I'd never see them again. And I was like, "Okay, there has to be something, there has to be something better than this." And that's really when it came to be. I found out about custom supplementation, and I was like, "I didn't even know this existed." And I start, then I started beta testing. I started out with clients that were interested, my family, myself. And I mean, that's really what I was doing through 2018 and 2019 before I launched Vicon in 2020. Amazing. Okay, there's a couple things I wanna ask about- Sure 'cause I know that people listening are gonna be like, "What does that mean?" And it's always so cool to hear people's stories, because I think a lot of people can relate to, like, that burnout of in your 20s you can just kinda bounce back, and then it just gets harder and harder as the decades go on. Yep. Yep. I've definitely found that personally as well. Like, I, yeah, I could push myself so hard in my 20s, and you know, kinda have the motto of, like, I'll sleep when I'm dead, and then it all came to catch up with me later. Yeah. So I think everybody listening relates to that, for sure. Yeah. So you said copper is at the bottom of your problems. Yes. So tell us more about that, because I've done a lot of teaching and talking recently about iron. And people are often commenting on my reels and stuff, saying, "Well, just take copper. It'll fix your iron." And while copper can be helpful for iron, I guess two questions out of this. Number one, walk us through why you can't just take one mineral. You said you were getting iron infusions and- Yep B12 injections, which obviously B12 is a, is a vitamin. But walk us through that, and then tell us about copper being at the, the bottom of your problems. Absolutely. So, so yeah. So definitely not, uh, a proponent of single supplementation, right? Because we know how intricate the balance of minerals are. If you ever look up the interaction of the mineral wheel with all of the, uh, minerals, and there'll be some vitamins on there too, there's arrows going every which way, lines connecting so many different ones. Uh, i- it's almost like you can't take one without it affecting something else. And if you're not balancing that, you could be contributing to the problem. Mm-hmm. Right? Even though we think we're helping. And so when, when it comes down to iron, I'll talk about copper obviously in my own situation, but- Multi-copper oxidases, the, the, the kind of little transports that convert iron need to be present in order for that iron to enter, right? To get shuttled to where it needs to go. Keep it simple. And if we don't have those, and this is where the thought process comes, well, then we just put copper into the system, right? Mm. The tricky part is, though, is that, yes, that might work for a sh- very short period of time. Some people, maybe it's a day they react negatively. Some people, maybe it's a month, you know, six months. But what ends up happening is as copper also needs a taxicab, right? Copper needs ceruloplasmin. Mm-hmm. Right? So we need to have that taxi in the body in adequate amounts, and what ends up happening is there's a very fine line when it comes to the stress response and the adrenal response. We know the adrenals fuel the car. If you think about a car, thyroid is the gas pedal, adrenals are the gas tank. If the gas tank's empty, the body's falling, right- Mm-hmm into exhaustion. So as the adrenals lower, then the support that they give to the liver to produce that taxicab for copper also reduces. So then what happens? Copper gets stuck, right? It ends up being shuttled into the soft tissues, and two of the main affected areas are the liver- The second is the brain. Mm-hmm. So if we really think about that brain connection, right? We have a lot of symptoms with copper. So copper can drive insomnia, it can drive pseudobipolar, mood disorders, irritability, anxiety, depression, and also schizophrenia. So if you've ever done any reading by Dr. Carl Pfeiffer, he was one of the first, I think, to actually identify the relationship and the levels of copper in people who had schizophrenia. Mm. And so by adding copper to the mix, the thought process of how it interacts with iron is correct, but the way it happens after, and again, the big picture is where it starts to fall apart, right? Mm-hmm. And copper and zinc are the hormone kind of representations in a mineral perspective. So zinc is more kind of progesterone, testosterone, right? Copper is estrogen. So as soon as we have copper that's now building in our organs or our soft tissues, we're going to most likely have estrogen dominant symptoms. So a lot of women, I was struggling with PMS, right? I was struggling with estrogen do- and I had done all the DIM, the Indole-3-carbinol for years without making a dent because I wasn't getting to the root problem where I always say the minerals are the foundation of the house, right? We need that strong foundation. And if we have something in that foundation that's too high, you need to really solve the foundation first in order to then use the others. Mm-hmm. So by not having- Adrenal support by not having, you know, probably... Well, in my case, I needed sea salt, I needed potassium, right? I didn't need calcium, but I needed magnesium, I needed zinc. Like, there's, there was a whole bundle of things that my body really needed in order to finally allow that copper buried in the soft tissue to go and become available to do the work that it really needed to do. And that's where some of the confusion comes, too. A lot of people think, "Well, if I just take it, it's better." But if you already have an overabundance in the body, all the symptoms get worse. Mm-hmm. Right? And this is why some people respond so negatively to things like organ, m- you know, supplementation, right? Beef liver, organ capsules, things like that. They can also have a negative effect if they take too much zinc. Mm-hmm. Because now the zinc is antagonizing the copper that's already in the body and exacerbating those symptoms. So again, just some ways to kinda think, "Hmm, we really need to, to think about that whole picture and what that looks like in order to actually solidify that foundation." I love what you said about estrogen, because we see that as well, clients that are like, "I think I have hormone issues." And I'm like, "Yes, possibly, and the root of it might actually not necessarily be your hormones." Yep. And, you know, maybe they've gone to their OBGYN or their provider and gotten hormone testing, and everything was, quote-unquote, normal, just like- Right you shared. Mm-hmm. But you can have a lot of the symptoms of high estrogen or low progesterone, even if it's not showing up on blood work, but it's showing up in how your minerals are depositing in- Yep in your body. And you can see that on hair testing, which is so cool. So obviously, and that's something that you stress over and over, is this is not diagnostic, right? HTMA is not diagnostic. We're not looking at HTMA saying, "Oh, you have estrogen dominance. You have low progesterone. You have an infection. You have a virus. You have this." But the cool part is it can show you a lot about what possibly could be going on, which can then lead better decisions about if you need to do something else, um, while you're supporting your minerals, or if you just stay the course and- Yep see really good results by balancing your minerals. Yeah. Yeah. For me, HTMA is- My health blueprint. Mm-hmm. Right? It's what's gonna navigate my anti-aging journey, right? I talked about how the body doesn't... We both did, about how the body over decades doesn't respond the same, so we need to be wiser and make better decisions, right? Now that I'm in my 50s, I- that's even more important, right? More important than ever. So I always... I use a really simple example that I love, and so I always, you know, when I'm giving live presentations, I'm like, "How many people have gone to a health food store to buy supplements?" And everybody puts their hand up, right? And I'm like, "And, and how did you choose the supplements that you bought when you went to the store?" And a lot of people will be like, "Well, you know, I went in, and I, I... Maybe I have this symptom," or, "Maybe I was a bit tired, so I was looking for this," or, "Oh, I saw something on TikTok, and I thought, 'Oh, that's what I need,' right? 'That's gonna solve my problem.' And I, I went in, and I talked to somebody there." Remember, you're talking to someone who doesn't know you. They don't know your health history. They just met you. They're listening to your symptom or what ails you, and then they're, they're seeing if this is a good fit. And I think, do I wanna be in that scenario where I'm going in blindly supplementing or blindly choosing a supplement, hoping that it will be what my body needs, or am I gonna take a simple hair sample and actually give my body what it actually needs? Right? It's so simple Yeah So simple It really is. And I, I, I wanna speak to that, because one common fear that we get from clients is, "Well, I am already shedding. I'm already losing hair. I don't wanna cut my hair." What are your thoughts about that? Or what would you say? Well, let's talk about hair for a minute. Great. Let's go. So I'll tell you that... So when I was 48, I started getting a little bit of onset perimenopause symptoms, right? So I was like, "Okay, need to change my formula," which I did. And then symptoms dissipated within about four to six weeks, and haven't really had any since. Like, I've been pretty, uh, pretty consistent. But I did go through a period of hair shedding, and I was like, "Oh, my..." And I, I'm the type of person, I have very fine hair, but I have a lot of hair, right? Mm-hmm. All of a sudden it was like my hair's getting thinner. So I went back and I'm like, "Oh, my stress response is up a little bit. Look at my calcium, and now I've got some grays coming in." I'm like, "Hmm." So tweaked my formula, make it a little different. Well, all of a sudden, and I don't know if you can see this or not, but I have all this new hair growth coming, right? This is, this is what happens. Like, you... When you think about mineral remineralization in the body, this is the, the beginning of your anti-aging tactics. And I'll tell you another quick story people find fascinating, and I mean, I, I mean, it happened to me, so I have to believe it. It's not like someone told me. But in my early 40s... Well, I mean, I started dyeing my hair probably late 30s when I started getting some grays, right? That's typical. Mm. Late 30s, early 40s, we start getting some grays. We're like, "Ooh, I need to dye my hair." And then once I started mineral balancing in my early 40s, I realized after a while that I, I didn't have to dye my hair as much. And I wasn't really think- wasn't really actively thinking about it, it just, I would do it when I saw, you know, kind of grays coming in. They stopped. So I'll tell you, it's been over 10 years since I've dyed my hair. I'm 53, and I have literally a handful of grays. That's amazing. I just... For me, this is number one. And you can pile on the other stuff. You know, people love peptides, and people love this, and people love that. But if you don't have the foundation- Mm anything you try and layer onto that first and second story isn't gonna work the same. Yeah. Right? 'Cause the body's starving for all the minerals it needs to, uh, activate reactions and functions. I often tell our clients, and maybe I got this from you, I, I don't know, but I, you know, obviously we see a lot of clients with GI issues. Yeah. And they come to us on these really extensive SIBO protocols, and this protocol, and that protocol. And I often tell my clients, I'm like, "You're focusing on the wallpaper in your house." Yeah. "And you haven't even put the plumbing in yet." Yeah. Or the electricity. And so- Exactly we're way, we're too many steps ahead of what we're doing. When we started really intentionally supporting our clients' minerals back in 2022, so four years ago- Mm-hmm our client results were already good, and now they are just... It's so incredible to see just the difference. And the biggest thing is how quickly people respond. Yeah. Before, I'm like, "Just give me a little bit of time. We can resolve your constipation. We can resolve your bloating. We can resolve your gastritis, acid reflux, whatever it is. We can do it, but it would take longer." Right. Now, we implement minerals, and it is night and day how quick people respond, um, to their protocols with less interventions, which is what you want, right? Yeah. I mean, if there's a way to finally get rid of your constipation and not have to take 80 supplements- Yeah um, then, or like you said, $800 worth of supplements, then that would be worth it for you, you know? 100%. I think anybody would agree that that's worth it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're changing the terrain. Yep. Right? That's really what it's about. I- if you're a hospitable host for all of these, uh, you know, bacteria, or parasites, or pathogens, if you change the terrain, it's like bringing in the cops. Mm-hmm. Right? Y- they're gonna move out. And you're gonna have less to deal with. Yeah. Right? So it just makes the whole protocol easier. And, you know, and that's really what I think back on, because I found mineral balancing kind of at the end of it, right? I had mentioned Giardia, so I had to eradicate Giardia. When, after I did that, I ended up with C. difficile toxin A. Then I think it m- kind of moved into, uh, next thing on the list was H. pylori. I worked through that. Um, and I mean Candida and different things along the way as well. But, you know, that was before mineral balancing. Probably at the beginning of it, actually. And after, though, a number of years, in 2020 actually, so a lot of years later, and I've been mineral balancing for a long time, and I've been taking my custom supplement for, um, probably a year anyways, uh, I ended up being exposed to black mold. Mm. Right? So rewind to 2020, right before the business actually opened. I left the clinic. I hadn't left my practice, but I took my practice online unknowingly in January of 2020 just because nobody wanted to come nobody wanted to come and see me at the office anymore. They're like, "Can we just get on a Zoom call? 'Cause I really don't wanna drive downtown to your office and pay to park." And I was like, "Fair point. Sure. Let's get on Zoom, and let's chat," right? Yeah. So then I'm like, "Why am I paying for an office when I don't need to? Nobody wants to come and see me anyway." Um, so I moved my practice kind of all online at that point, and that's when... So I, there's a, an, a coup- I mean, I do other doc- diagnostic tests my year, right? We all do blood labs, hopefully. Mm-hmm. Do blood labs, HTMA, right? But there's other ones I do. I do, like, the organic acid test. So I do that on myself once a year- Mm-hmm just to make sure I'm paying attention to some other, uh, things, right? And it, my test came back with black mold. Mm. And I was like, "Wait a minute." And the crazy thing was I really didn't have any symptoms. You know? So I was, I mean, I was working five days a week, you know, many hours a day when Vicon launched, and I didn't have any symptoms, but I was like, "It's here. It's in the hou- It's gotta be in the house." Well, it ended up being... So my husband and I are the only ones in the house, and in our basement, I mean, we rarely kind of go down there. It's all finished. There was a leak in the bathroom in the basement, and it was bad. Bad enough that my husband, thank goodness, is a contractor. He owns a company, a contracting company. They actually had to pull everything out of the basement down to the cement floor and the brick and mortar. Oh, wow. That was all that was left. That's how bad it was. And I mean, I worked through that. I did get, do another OAT test about October that year. The first one was in April, so October, about six months later, and I still had a little bit that I had to work through. But even that whole time, I had no debilitating symptoms, right? I was taking all my zeolite and my minerals and all my things. Uh, and I had, you know, kind of honed in on my protocol a little bit, but I really didn't have anything that was debilitating. And, and for me, I 100% equated that to the mineral balancing I'd done for the years prior to that exposure. Mm-hmm. Because, I mean, mold is such a, a, just so detrimental to the system, right? Yeah. Well, I don't know if you knew this or not, but one of the reasons that I got into minerals was because of mold. So- I did after, after I had my son in 2022- Yeah I was having just some crazy symptoms, and I was far enough postpartum and he was sleeping that I was like- I s- he was born in January 2022, and this is, like, the summer. Yep. And I'm like, I- something's wrong, because I can barely get out of bed in the morning, and I'm kind of one of those people that's like, you know, I accomplish more before 8:00 than most people do in a day kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Or that's kind of, you know, was my motto in my 20s that burnt me out. But, um, yeah, I actually started talking to my friend Leah, who you know. Oh, yeah. And she was like, "You gotta, you gotta do HCMA." And so she did an HCMA test on me, and it was- Mm-hmm just so depleted. Like, completely depleted. And that's when then I did a urine test, had mold. We figured out we had mold in our bathroom, et cetera. And, uh, the minerals, I mean, they, like, turned the lights back on. That and taking immunoglobulins literally changed my life, because I went from, like, I can barely function, and, my brain is so foggy, and- Mm-hmm this is not just postpartum, to I feel like myself again, like, so quick. I remember getting my custom blend in the mail, and this is the first time I had ever done it, and I was, like, so excited to take it, 'cause I'm like this is, this is gonna be what, but real- what really helps, and it was. Like, it just, it totally changed things. Which is right around the time that I, I think I had actually enrolled in your program before that- Mm um, and was, was working through it. But- Yeah yeah, that's, that was the huge light bulb moment for me where I'm like, we have lots of clients with mold. We have lots of clients with lots of things, candida, and H. pylori, and all these things. And when they're on minerals, regardless of what they have going on, their die-off is a lot less, their energy is better, their protocols, they're able to get through them better. And I can usually look at someone's HCMA and be like, "You're ready to tolerate a protocol. You're not ready to tolerate a protocol," based on just how depleted they are. And I mean, probably similar, similar to the lot of tests that you guys get, we get a lot of very depleted- Yeah maybe not all four lows, but a lot of very depleted tests. And so- Yeah yeah, when those minerals are on board, it's like everything just works so much better. Yeah. Well, it's like, like I said, it's like running a car on empty. Yeah. You just can't do it. You're not gonna... You just can't do it. You're not gonna go far, right? No. And it's really difficult. So if you think about it- If you really think about it, so if you're trying to run a car on empty and it stalls, what do you do? Outside of, like, maybe walking to the gas station to get more gas if it's a gas car. Mm-hmm. Are you gonna try and push it? 'Cause that's even harder. Mm-hmm. But that's what we do. Yeah. We're running on empty, and what are we doing? We're pushing through it, right? That's so good. Thanks. That's such a good way to look at it. Yeah, like, that's so hard. Mm-hmm. When really all we need is a little gas in the gas tank so we can press on the pedal, right? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Okay, couple questions for you- Sure related to minerals, because you are, you are the guru, and, and have all, have all the answers. So one thing that is often recommended with minerals is binders. Mm-hmm. I wanna have a conversation about binders, why they're important, and then what could happen maybe if somebody's not taking a binder, and maybe when they're contraindicated. We can chat through... Obviously, we work with a lot of kind of that trying-to-conceive pregnancy- Yes age range. So we get a lot of questions about is this safe for pregnancy, is it not safe for pregnancy. So one of the common binders, or two, I guess two of the most common binders that you recommend are humic/fulvic and then zeolite. So let's chat about those, and then- Okay you can bring up any other binders you want. But I feel like those- Sure are the most common. Yeah, so humic/fulvic really is an interesting one. So fulvic is really... I mean, they come from the earth, right? Mm-hmm. So, so they're, they're, they're extracted from the earth. They're treated. They can be done in many different processes. The one that we have is, uh, uh, kind of like a gravity-based extraction process, which is really neat. Um, and that's why I chose it. They can be really helpful, I think, in those really depleted patterns that we talked about, because humic and fulvic, they're an interesting combo. Humic really acts more as a binder 'cause the molecules are a bit bigger. Fulvic is smaller. It's actually, uh... It can bring minerals to the system. I think that by adding it to a protocol, it can actually help enhance mineral absorption. So that's one of the reasons why I love using it in the four lows cases, because it can be really helpful to help the body just bring more to the table, and have a very gentle binding capacity, right? Sometimes we have to come in at, with a very gentle approach, because the body is in that depleted state, and it's highly reactive. Mm-hmm. Right? So we've gotta be cautious. So I love adding that. I actually- The humic and fulvic, I learned years ago how powerful it was when I used it in my dog trials. And I had always done a little bit of digging, kind of learning about how it affects the microbiome. And so for those of you who have a dog, maybe they're a bit itchy or they lick their paws or their ear smells like tortilla chips Right? That's yeast, by the way. Um, we had this one little dog, his name was Archie. Archie had a really bad case of yeast. His ears were all yeasty and, and what have you. And it was interesting because I had to work with his owner during this beta test because they go on minerals and we have an HMA, they go on minerals, they retest, right? We s- we track symptoms. And he was an interesting case because I had to pull him off minerals. He was having a few negative responses and I was like, "Okay." I said, "Let's just put some humic and fulvic into his food and see how that, how that plays out," because I knew of the yeast issue. So we pulsed on humic and fulvic, couple days off, humic and fulvic, couple days off. By the third time the humic and fulvic came back in, the owner called me, she's like, "Oh my gosh, his ears have never been so bad." And I'm like, "Keep using it." Mm-hmm. A week later it was gone. Wow. I was like, "Wow." I'm like, "Okay, now you can bring the minerals back in the picture. We've, we've, we've allowed the body to let this go," right? And that's, that is the time, the pivotal point for me about understanding how powerful humic and fulvic acid is for the microbiome in the right doses, right? Mm-hmm. So, so, so that's a really kind of gentle overall body support, in my opinion. Um, and again, it can be great for animals too. Zeolite, I got a, a new appreciation a few years ago from one of the only, I would say, the most respected person that has access and manufacturing, um, processes that are proprietary in the United States. And so when I met him, and he's been doing zeolite for now 30 years, right? He's done all kinds of testing over those decades. When I met him, there was a lot about zeolite we didn't know, right? We... You know, I originally said, "Okay, titrate zeolite like you would any other binder," right? Start low and increase. I was using it that way myself. And, but if you're more toxic you can use more, right? Because it's loosely kind of has s- calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium, those electrolytes kind of loosely in its lattice, right? That it lets go and does an exchange. So I was like, "Okay." Over the course of time though, and many conversations with him, I had a new appreciation for not only the benefits of zeolite- But also the way that it really works the most effectively in the body, which is almost like a reverse titration, right? Mm-hmm. More is better. The other thing that I came to appreciate was the way that he processed his powdered zeolite, which is what we carry, right? And about... W- Comes back to powdered zeolite, and I'll talk about liquids in a second, is the micron particle size. Mm-hmm. Because that particle size, you want some that are l- very kind of almost nano particle, but you want the majority to be... Well, actually, you want the majority to be nano, but you want a good portion of that majority to be a little bit larger, because they stay in the GI to clean up toxins there. And zeolite, powdered zeolite really works on surface area, so the more you have in the system, the more toxins it can pick up, right? Mm-hmm. Makes sense. Yeah. If you have a school bus, there's only so many seats, right? Mm-hmm. So you need to bring another bus into the system if there's more, uh, you know, kids to pick up, right? Um, when it comes to liquid zeolites, I personally believe that these just have enough zeolite to start to do an ion exchange and then spit toxins back into the system. There isn't enough surface area, and that's why a lot of times you have these spray nano zeolite, really l- small particles, um, that just don't work for people, right? Mm-hmm. We hear it time and time again. So definitely powdered zeolite, in my opinion, is, is the best, and really doing your due diligence to see about the particle sizes is also really important, right? 'Cause you wanna make sure you're getting that really holistic whole body support when it comes to binding. Okay, and then clear up any confusion. Can zeolite be taken with minerals? I think it can. So it can be taken with food. It can be taken with minerals. I did get that from this particular gentleman, and because at the end of the day, could zeolite bind to minerals? It could if there was zero toxins in the body. Mm-hmm. Right? And I- Which is unlikely. I think that's impossible, right? I don't know if that's even possible. Um, so I mean, I've been... We've been doing animal testing for ages. Um, we've had, you know, I mean, many dogs where we just put it right in the formula. I take mine right in my formula. Um, I've a lot of people that'll be like, "Well, are you in a four lows pattern?" No, I'm not, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause that would prove it, right? Like, if you, if you fell into four lows and you were taking zeolite with minerals, well, that would make sense, and that's not what's transpired with me personally. So no, I mean, we say as like... The only thing we're very cautious about is medications. Yeah. Right? Nobody's ever really tested it. Nobody knows if i- is it gonna see it as a foreign invader? I'm not sure. So in those respects, I say just take it at least two hours away from any medications just be- to be on the conservative safety side. I think that that's a good practice to follow. That's typically what we recommend, and honestly, just for ease, I'm like, if you- Yeah wanna take your zeolite with your minerals so you don't- Yeah forget it- Yep do it. You know? Yeah. I'd rather you take it- Yep than not take it. Absolutely. So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and bedtime can be a great time. Mm-hmm. Right? If there's no meds at bedtime or anything like that, but that could be a great time because why? Because when we go to sleep, our body repairs and replenishes and re- detoxifies itself, right? Mm-hmm. This is when we go through all the organ detox. So there's a lot of toxins moving around while we're sleeping- Yeah that might disrupt our sleep, right? Yeah. So- So Zeolite could help. Exactly. Yeah. We see that a lot with immunoglobulins, and obviously different mechanism, but we have several clients where they were dealing with mold, et cetera. Mm. And we actually had them move their immunoglobulins to bedtime, and they slept so much better. It was, like- Yeah amazing. And they would wake up with less brain fog, and just like- That's amazing less kind of that groggy feeling, which is pretty cool, just to see- Yeah like that direct correlation there, so. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Another just, like, myth o- that we hear, which I know we were chatting about before we pressed record, is calcium. Yeah. So it's very common for people to believe that as you age, your bones are going to weaken, and you need to take calcium. And I cannot tell you how many clients we have that have super high calcium. They're on mega doses of vitamin D. Yeah. They are so constipated. Their mood is all over the place. And they're like, "But I have to take this calcium because of my bones." And then we look at their HTMA. And I'm like, "Well, actually, you have plenty of calcium, but it's in the wrong place, and you're missing a lot of the things that actually would move calcium into the bones." So walk us- Exactly through that, and why this whole- Yeah if you don't take calcium, you're gonna get osteopenia, um, is, is incorrect. Yeah. So, and I mean, it's kind of a typical suggestion, right? And, and, you know, again, I'm at that age. People would be, uh, saying that to me as well, right? But I use the HTMA. I know better. Mm-hmm. Calcium really is a result of the stress response, right? So for those of you who have never done an HTMA, I'm gonna keep this really simple. As soon as we get stressed, one of the first minerals affected is sodium. If you wanna have enough energy to run from the bear that's just started chasing you, you need your sodium to increase to fuel your stress hormones that your adrenals are gonna secrete, right? If this continues for a period of time, what's gonna happen is the kidneys are gonna get on board and go, "Whoa, we need to keep more sodium in the system 'cause we're still running," right? And that's gonna happen at the expense of potassium. And as soon as we have a sodium that's really high over potassium, uh, from a ratio perspective, that's our stress ratio, right? As the stress ratio increases, the next guy that gets called to the table is magnesium. Right? We're trying to calm things down even though we're still in that heightened stress fight or flight response, right? And magnesium, along with sodium and potassium, are really the, the gatekeepers for calcium. Magnesium is the main one, right? So if the gates fly open and the stress response becomes chronic and continuous, right, then calcium ends up not in the bones and the teeth where it actually should be. It ends up in our soft tissues. Can include our brain, it can include our fascia, our muscles. I- it can be anywhere, right? Joint calcification, right? I've seen it come out of people's eyes before when they've had really high calcification deposits, kidney stones are another calcification deposit in some cases. So it's, it's in the body, just not in the right place, right? So by... I always say by adding calcium supplements, even sometimes with the co-factors, think about boron and magnesium and, you know, your K2, right? Even with, even with those, if we have an overabundance that's contributing to inflammation and contributing to that rigidity in the body, and I'll go back to constipation in a minute, we need to get that calcium into solution and moving in the body to get it back in the bones and the teeth to re-mineralize them, right? By adding more, you're adding f- gasoline to a burning fire Right? And we see this all the time. It, it, you know, they... Somebody comes to you and they're like, "I can't make a f-," one of my clients, "I can't make a fist anymore. I've been taking calcium and all the things and I have osteopenia, progressed osteoporosis." And I'm like, "You need to stop taking those and get your minerals under control. Let's look at what your test says." Right? Let's start there, and this is where those really high calcium levels end up. So there is a misconception out there, too, where it's like that calcium level's elevated so we have a functional deficiency. That is not not true. It is true, but you have to extinguish the fire and get the wood redistributed, in my opinion, right? Because if you don't, the fire's just gonna keep burning out of control. Um, constipation. So think about, let's say you're driving in the mountains, and we always have these little trickling streams that, you know, cascade over the rocks, maybe on the side of the road, and you're like, "Oh, look how pretty that is." And then there's white calcification. What does it look like? It's hard and it's rigid, right? So when we have calcifications in the body, in the soft tissues of the body, what do we have? We have inflammation, we have stiffness, we have rigidity, we have constipation, right? We have pain that we have to now manage because now we have that really hard crystalline calcification that's affecting the tissues that are supposed to be supple. Mm-hmm. Right? So this is one of the reasons why one of the biggest minerals that usually is needed in high amounts in the beginning of a process with the other, um, additions is magnesium, because magnesium is a direct gatekeeper for calcium, right? So, so important to, again, have things in balance. And I, I think this is, this is one of the toughest ones because so many women that we see their tests and they all have high calcium. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. So, so we have to fix... We, we have to fix... This is like, this is an epidemic, right? Um, this problem really needs to be brought to mainstream so that women understand that by taking, you know, those calcium supplements blindly without knowing what they actually need to thrive and be really healthy and, and be able to avoid some of these conditions, it's available. It's right there, but they just don't know. Yeah, and then the whole vitamin D picture plays into it as well, because they're told, "Well, you need to take 50,000 IUs of vitamin D." Yeah. That's right. And that's actually contributing and making the problem worse. Exactly. So, so D really comes back around to cofactors, right? Mm-hmm. And so if we think about cofactors and we think about the stress response I just talked about, a few of the big players and cofactors for vitamin D, we need enough cholesterol, we need a little bit of sunlight, right? Mm-hmm. Can be artificial if we have to. But we need magnesium, potassium, boron, MK7, right? If we don't have those on board, then our D production lowers. So based on that comment and the stress response I talked about, the first... Well, no, the second and third minerals in the stress response that get affected are potassium and magnesium. Mm-hmm. That's half of the picture. Yeah. Right? So if we're missing those critical factors in the body's production of D, how is it gonna make it? How is it gonna make enough for us? Mm-hmm. Right? And so I, uh, I'm not 100% against D supplementation. I want people to think that, because sometimes we need to bridge the gap. We do need to have sufficient stores. But I think using a little bit very strategically, again, based on testing, that can help kind of paint the picture as the minerals start to get replenished. Mm-hmm. So the body can do what it naturally wants to anyways, is create its own, right? So sometimes we need to bridge the gap, but those really high mega doses- In a lot of cases can be very detrimental. Totally. Okay, let's shift, and I wanna chat about specifically Vicon supplementation. So one of the best things I think that we can offer our clients is streamlining their protocols. And of course, not all of our clients opt for this, but I would say- Yeah 80% do, because they realize that they can go from having all these random supplement bottles to getting one powder of literally everything they need that replaces their multivitamin, all, any additional B supplementation, vitamin D supplementation, everything in one powder. And they, obviously after they titrate it, it's their two scoops a day, and they're, they're done. So you're the brains behind this operation, and opened Vicon Customs. And so tell us just a little bit about that, um, in case somebody's listening and they're like, "What even is Vicon?" And, and why- Yeah why would I care about that? Or why, how could this benefit me? Right. Yeah, so I mean, again, Vicon really came around as an answer to a client problem that I, I identified in my practice, right? And I mean, for me, you know, if people are watching, this is my breakfast serving, and I put some- Nice whey protein isolate in there. And then I have smaller ones for lunch times. This is, this is my little Yeti for lunch time. The, right? So- Oh my goodness, that is the cutest little cup I've ever seen. Right? Where do you get that? That is adorable. I think I, I got these at the local, um, what is it called? Caboto's, right, the sport shop. Or Cabelo's. Oh, yeah. Cabelo's. Yeah, so you can- So cute you can get them there. Um, yeah, so I mean, I really wanted to sol- And for me too, you know, I think as I, you know, I talked about that big journey of my own health, like kind of nursing myself back from, uh, a burnout. You know, I would get two, three pages of supplements that someone would send to me, and I would manage it. But I remember even one time, so I used to have a big box that I would put in the top of the closet, front closet. Mm-hmm. And that was my box of supplements. And I'd have, like, 40, right? 'Cause it'd be a couple pa- And I'd order everything. I followed it to a T, right? Mm-hmm. It's like I wanna make sure, like, I'm, I'm all on. And I remember one day, this was years ago, I don't even know if my husband and I were married at that point. He walked by me in the kitchen, and it's Sunday night, and I've got my box of supplements out, and I've got all my little things. Every day I pre-fill them for the week, so right? This was before Vicon. And he looked at me and he goes, "Do you really take all of that stuff?" And I was like, "Yep." It was like my job. It's like my second job- Yeah right? And I'm like- I need to figure out how to help this. Like, 'cause you're taking somebody who's stressed and depleted and tired, and you're, you're making them have a second job managing their supplement protocol. Mm-hmm. It's exhausting, right? And I mean, I was even getting like that at the end of it where it was like when I figured out there was something better, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I need to figure this out because I just, I just need a break." Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's ni- right? It's so easy. We need that. And so, so yeah. I mean, really all it is, it's so simple, right? Take the four main patterns. They don't always fit, but usually the, the majority fit into four main patterns. And I really just tested for years how do we bring in the right things in those patterns to be able to support them and have them see change and feel change at the same time, right? Mm-hmm. And so, I mean, it's changed over the years too. I think the first time I made a, a protocol adjustment was maybe in end of 2021, right? I had taken a couple things out of the bases and added more. I'm like, "Mm, I don't..." You know, because I'm always... Science isn't black and white. Mm-hmm. It's gray. So somebody... You know, we might discover something tomorrow that we didn't know 10 years ago, right? And that might make these better, but it's just really a base formulation to support the pattern on the HTMA to be able to help the body change and get back into a more balanced place, and we're simplifying it so you don't have that box of supplements or that, uh, what do they call it? The, the graveyard cupboard of all the supplements- Yeah. Right? The supplement graveyard that we have in our pantries, some of us. Mm-hmm. Um, just eliminating all of that. We often have our clients upload a list of what we call their supplement graveyard. Yep. And yeah, it's amazing just how many things can be on that list. Yep. So it is so convenient. We can take, uh... If you're unfamiliar with HTMA testing, you get your results, and you get a metabolic type. And so the... you could be slow ox, fast ox, and then there's some other patterns in there like she mentioned. And so based on the client's pattern, we can then pick the base formula. And then the best part is because nobody is the same, you can then customize it with- Yep add-ons. So you can add more potassium. You can add B vitamins. You can add more calcium, more sodium, whatever that specific client needs because everybody's results are different. And so then by the end, when you go to check out, you have this completely custom mineral and vitamin supplementation for a client. And typically, the powder with titration is gonna last somebody three and a half to four months, depending on- Mm-hmm on how long they take to titrate it. Yep. And some people may be longer if they are going slower titrating it. But from a cost perspective, it ends up being way less than if you were to go buy all of these things individually. And like you said, from a convenience perspective, it's just amazing. To be able to take your one scoop in the morning, take your second scoop with lunch. Sometimes people do both scoops and just sip on it a little bit slower, whatever works. Yeah. And, you know, go about your day. So, um, it really is d- just helping so many people because it's creating... It's meeting people where they're at. Um- Yeah really exhausted, tired people, um, that have a lot going on, and kind of bridging the gap of, like, having to fill all those supplement bins on a Sunday with 80 pills. Right. And streamlining it to two scoops, which makes it just amazing. Yeah. Well, and the one thing that came to light really early for me when I was testing it with clients is consistency equals change. Yes. Right? So because the other protocols were so in-depth, there was a lack of consistency, right? Mm-hmm. It was like, "Oh, I forgot my lunch dose. Oh, I forgot my..." You know? And, and I, and I realized after I implemented the first kind of version of, of the powders that I was getting better client results because it was easier for them to be consistent. Yes. Uh- 100%. Okay, last thing I want to ask you about is just some common, like, frequently asked questions that we get. Mm-hmm. Sure. So, and you can, you can add on to this or go in whatever order. Okay. The first thing is citric acid. Is that- Mm going to irritate somebody with gastritis? The second one is, what if you start peeing yellow? Does that mean that the B vitamins are too high? Or why are they mega dosed, and- Yeah do I need them? And then the last question is, would camu camu, as a vitamin C source, be contraindicated in pregnancy, or, uh, when would you personally choose camu camu as a vitamin C source over ascorbic acid? Which you have- Mm-hmm both options there. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so citric acid, it- it's a very misunderstood, um, addition, right? Or ingredient. It really acts as a buffering agent, right? So it's actually not necessarily acidic. So for, you know, it really contributes to a balanced pH in a formula, which is why it's added. Mm-hmm. So should it flare gastritis and things like that? No. But as, remember, as you put minerals and vitamins that is needed into the system, if the system has underlying issues, there may be symptoms that get worse before they get better because the terrain is changing, right? This can happen with... I'll give you an interesting example. I had a client, uh, reach out to me, this was quite a while ago, but put her on a protocol, and she emailed. She's like, "Lisa, you need to... I need help. I don't know what to do." She's like, "I have so many canker sores in my mouth, I can barely eat." And I was like, "Okay." I'm like, "This is a new one." But I said, "Tell me, in your past, have you ever struggled with canker sores?" And she was like, "Oh my gosh, not since I was a teenager." And I was like, "Well, that's what we call mineral balance retracing." Mm. Right? The body will travel back down a path of symptoms the same as the way that it got to where you are, right? So I said, "Just give it a week. Give it a week so that we can see what happens." And within the week they were gone. And I was like- Crazy "Okay, good. Let's move on." Yeah. Riffy. You're like, "I hope you enjoyed your bone broth and whatever you were drinking for a week." I know. I know. So, so sometimes there are symptoms that will linger for, you know, two to five days, something like that, but usually they dissipate pretty quickly, and many times they're from your past. Crazy. I know. Do you see that with infections, like strep or different things like that? Oh, I don't know if I've ever tracked that one. Candida for sure is one. Um, acne is another one, right? Mm-hmm. If they had acne as a teenager and then all of a sudden stuff start change- hormones start change- all of a sudden they get acne again, and then it goes away. So that's definitely one that we see quite probably more common is, uh, is skin conditions and skin issues, right? Yeah. Especially when copper's involved and lack of zinc, and ah, a whole story. Mm-hmm. Um, that can be a big driver is some skin conditions. So that's another one that f- will flare and then kinda calm itself as things start to level out. Zeolite can help with that. So again, the toxins are mobilizing, and the skin is their organ of detox. Mm-hmm. Right? So when that happens, uh, you know, some extra zeolite can help to mitigate some of those symptoms sometimes too, for sure. Yeah. Um, as for the next one, if I remember, it's camu camu and pregnancy or perinatal, right? Mm-hmm. Camu camu, I mean, if there's... It's a natural- Ingredient, right? Mm-hmm. There's a lot of compartments to it. One of them is ascorbic acid, which is a lower dose than we would normally say if we were bringing in ascorbic acid on its own with a little bit of bioflavonoids. Let me give you a background. So as for the perinatal period, I actually chose the camu camu specifically because the ascorbic acid was lower, and because there was a more broad spectrum of, of nutrients in it, right? Um, and by having lower levels of ascorbic acid, if a woman does have copper on board or something like that that can be affected, we're not gonna e- stimulate detox, right? Mm-hmm. The, the blends are made to be a nutraceutical. They're made to be therapeutic. But for pregnancy and breastfeeding, we need to calm that down a little bit, right? We need to be more gentle, support the body, but no detox, right? Just because it's too stressful. Mm-hmm. We already have stress going on. We're either growing a child, which we need lots of nutrients for, or we're feeding a child, and the toxins could end up in the breast milk if that's how they're being fed, right? So we have to be very cautious about that. Um, with regards to the ascorbic acid choice and when you would choose camu camu versus ascorbic acid, I go back to the same thing. So what I did do was I brought in a little bit of bioflavonoids when I chose ascorbic acid at higher doses. I did that because it enhances the absorption, so it, it does make a nice complex, and it is a very small amount of bioflavonoids. The ascorbic acid is much higher. It's meant to create change. Mm-hmm. Right? So we wanna be cautious in a couple of ways, and I'll give you, uh, a kind of a one-off scenario as well. You wanna be cautious in a couple of ways. If you've got a very depleted person, let's say for those of you out there who have that four lows pattern, right? Calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium are all low. Might wanna start with camu camu first just because- Mm of that lower ascorbic acid content, right? It's a little more gentle on the system. And then graduate if, if more support is needed after, right? Mm-hmm. So that would be one of the times when I would choose kinda camu over ascorbic acid. Some of the other times too is when we think about... We talked about organic acid testing earlier. If somebody has oxalates on board or has interstitial cystitis, ascorbic acid in high doses can really affect those people negatively, right? Mm-hmm. And cause a lot of symptoms. So we... That's definitely a time that you would go with camu camu at a lower dose to make sure that you're not kinda stimulating any of those, uh, situations. Yeah. Love it. Okay, and then the last one was about the B vitamins, and like if you start- Yes peeing yellow, does that mean you're just- That's B2 flushing money down the toilet or- No, that's- whatever things you'll hear from people. That's, that's B2. Yeah. It's riboflavin-5-phosphate, or riboflavin in general. That's what gives urine that really bright yellow color. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's just a byproduct of it, so you're not necessarily losing it. You have to remember in the very beginning too, it may be a little bit more prominent because you probably are losing some of all of it. Mm-hmm. Because it comes back to our absorption capacity in our GI, and if we've got a GI where the terrain needs to change, you are gonna have some wasting. It's like malabsorption from your food, right? Mm-hmm. Totally. So once you work through that and the terrain changes, then the absorption increases as well. So that's gonna happen no matter what, and it doesn't matter if it's B vitamins or not. Yeah. Yeah, we often get messages from clients like, "My urine is yellow. Does that mean it's not-" It's bright yellow absorbing? Is this a waste?" You know? I'm like, "It's okay. You're gonna- Yeah. It's gonna go away in a couple- Yeah days I bet." Yep. So. Yep, yeah. Yeah. Usually it changes pretty quickly. Yeah, just stay the course. You'll be fine. Absolutely. Well, and when we talk about... I find it so interesting to just talk quickly about B vitamins is that these mega doses. And, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, when you look at the research, we're not even using what people would consider mega doses. Mm-hmm. They're just a lot higher than the RDA. But the RDA is literally, like, what you need to, to not, not exist anymore. Right? Not thrive, right? So, so we've gotta be really cau- like, cognizant of that. Because, you know, even when you think about toxicity with, uh, P5P B6, we're talking about hundreds and hundreds of milligrams that have been tested, right? So a lot of people think about that, well, well, it's 100 milligrams, that's really high. And it's like, but it... we're not even in the area that's been tested for any type of negative reactions or toxicities. Like, they're so much higher. Mm. Um, B1's an interesting one, too. You know, B1 really drives metabolism. It's deficient in, in diabetes. It's deficient in NAFLD, right? So, and, and when we're talking about really therapeutic doses of B1 in the form of thiamine hydrochloride, you're actually talking about, like, 2,000 milligrams versus 100, right? Mm. So I think that the, that the mega dose is misunderstood based on just, uh, research, right? So if you look and dig into the research, you'll see that some of those mega doses are very, very high. Well, and B1 is so helpful for constipation. Mm-hmm. And there's research showing that. The... even research- Yeah that's come out in the last year about B1 and constipation. And something that, you know, obviously everything plays a role in our- Yeah constipated clients when we're really working on mi- mineral balancing. But getting that B1 in there is so important, so- Yeah, yeah uh, for so many of them. Yeah. My, my mentor years ago said B1 is the most important vitamin, that's why it's number one. I love that. Right? And I'm like, I know, I know. I love it, I love it. Yeah. And everyone focuses on B12. I know, and B12 is probably one of the highest ones for us in the HMA world that so many times is contraindicated based on cobalt. Mm-hmm. Right? So we've... You gotta be a little bit cautious with that one and, and know what your cobalt levels are and what your liver burden is and things like that. Yeah. Totally. So interesting. Yeah. It really is, and it's one of those things that in my practitioner program, um, we're, we're... I mean, primarily we're doing gut stuff, but obviously minerals are, are a piece of that, of course. Yeah. You can't talk about gut without minerals. Um, a client or clinicians will often say, like, "The more I know, the less I know." And I agree. It's like- It's true the more you kind of go down these deep- It's true rabbit holes, you're like, "I know nothing." You know? I... There's always more to learn. And- I know that's the cool part about what we do, is that- 100% there's always more research. There's always things that you can tweak and grow and learn, and- Yep um, yeah. It's, it's amazing. Yep. I couldn't agree more. And, you know, that's one of the reasons... That's one of the reasons why years ago I started doing my beta testing with animals. Mm-hmm. It was really my own dog, but it's... I've learned so much from the animals that has translated to humans. Yeah. Right? And you do horses too, right? Yeah. Yeah. The- Horses so the first horse, I can't remember what year it was. I don't know if it was 2022 or 2023. Uh, we brought on a mare in the, one of our trials. We usually have about 12, probably 12 to 16 horses in each trial. And so, uh, she was new to the trial, and she had had a lot of reproductive organ issues, and it was... So it was an int- interesting case and, and, uh, anyways, that was the first test that I'd ever seen where copper looked normal. And again, in animals, I mean, we have markers for humans, right? I haven't quite figured out how that works with animals yet. I don't know if there's any correlation. I haven't, haven't had enough, uh... I mean, I looked at hundreds of cases, but I d- I just don't know if they actually apply. But there's other markers I've been picking out, and that was the first case that I saw where the molybdenum was off the chart, and I... And a light bulb went off, and I went, "Wait a minute. If they share the pathway and molybdenum's high, then I bet you it's being disrupted by copper." Mm-hmm. Right? And then this is where the reproductive issues are coming from. And so, and so then I started seeing it in human cases. I'd missed it before 'cause I wasn't, it wasn't that high, but that one triggered me to go, "Wait a minute, I need to start looking at these moving forward." And sure enough, the thing that we identified was that if molybdenum is elevated, you can almost guarantee that there's copper dysregulation, and there might not be enough markers. Mm. Right? So that was an interesting... Right? So there's things like that that have come out of the animal testing. I'm like, "Oh, wow, I wouldn't even have known that if I wasn't going down that road," right? It's really interesting. Yeah. So interesting. Yeah. I feel like we could have hours of conversation- about this. I know, right? So anything that you wish I would have asked you that I didn't ask you, uh, to kind of leave the listeners with, or just any final thoughts? Oh, definitely some final thoughts. You know, I feel like so many times we question about investing in our health sometimes, right? We don't put ourselves first. Mm-hmm. And at the end of the day, nobody's gonna take care of you except you, and you've got to support the foundation, right? It's so easy to support the... It's one of the cheapest tests out there, right? Mm-hmm. We know that. Um, I, uh, I just... Everybody should do this, right? We should be doing this on our kids to set them up. So many kids have toxic metal issues, and toxins, and overburden, and, you know, there's so many options to be able to really streamline, not only... Like, I know we're talking about supplementation, but it's not all about that either. It's about dialing in your nutrition, right? Thinking about your stress habits, your lifestyle habits, your sleep hygiene, right? It's the whole picture of things. If you really wanna think about how to age gracefully, you can't ignore the minerals. No, you can't. You just can't. You can't. Well, Lisa, where can everybody find you, connect with you, et cetera? Yeah, so I mean, connecting with me, I'm on Instagram. Mm-hmm. So just have my name. You can see it there, @lisapatelkilla. I also have a YouTube channel where I talk lots about minerals, uh, and I talk, uh, on my podcast as well. So yeah, so lots of info that they can collect in those two places for sure. Okay, and then the question that I ask every guest is, because this is called the Love Your Gut Podcast, how do you love your gut? Oh, my gosh. How do I love my gut? Uh, minerals. Zeolite. Mm-hmm. Hydration, enough magnesium, and I would say colon health. Mm-hmm. So Colon Health is, uh, a product. Uh, it's not my product. It's an ozonated magnesium that I love. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's one of the ways I keep biofilms at bay and just everything really clean because the other thing you have to consider, too, is you've gotta take care of your entries and your exits- Mm-hmm right, if we really wanna be healthy. So it would indirectly- Help my gut. And that's my nasal spray that I use every day, and my oral care that I do, because that filters down into the body, right? For sure. And we can have infections and, and things that happen from there. So thinking about that, because I think that's two of the things that people... I mean, we brush our teeth. We floss our teeth. We use, you know, whatever we're gonna use. But how many people, I would love to see a show of hands of whoever's listening and watching, how many people use a nasal spray every day? Mm-hmm. Right? Very few people. But it's so important, 'cause we can have biofilms in our nasal cavity, and we can have toxins there too, and then, you know, and then we end up with chronic sinus infections and all kinds of things, or allergies or, you know what I mean? So keeping that entrance clean is so important. So I think that that indirectly is another way that I support my gut. I love it. Well, thanks so much for joining. This was so great, and I'm excited for everybody to listen. So great. Thanks for having me, Heather.