Ep. 125: Iron, Copper, and Gut Irony Roundtable Discussion

Round two with the gutTogether team. Macy and Tyler are back, and this time we're talking about the iron and ferritin cases that have filled our caseload for the last six to eight months. If you've taken iron for months and watched your ferritin barely budge, or you've had an infusion and ended up with brand new GI symptoms, this conversation explains exactly why that isl. 

We get into the iron recycling system, why copper and ceruloplasmin quietly run the whole operation, what gut infections do with the iron you take, and why ferritin sometimes drops before it climbs. 

Plus the question we get in our inbox constantly: should I just get the infusion?

Timestamps 

• 01:50 Pattern one: the iron supplement that doesn't move the needle
• 02:30 Your iron recycling system, and when iron is truly the problem
• 03:40 Iron is a delivery system, not a faucet
• 04:20 Almost every low-ferritin client also has GI symptoms
• 05:00 Pattern two: copper, ceruloplasmin, and iron recycling
• 07:20 Why copper becomes biounavailable (stress, liver, hormones, exposure)
• 10:00 Retinol, vitamin C, and the easier fixes
• 11:00 Zinc mega-dosing and the copper fallout
• 12:40 Minerals work like a symphony
• 13:10 High ferritin, wonky ferritin, and the Goldilocks range
• 15:30 Why one lab in isolation will mislead you
• 16:10 The gut infections we see most in ferritin cases
• 17:00 The string of pearls: digestion before absorption
• 19:00 How pathogens sequester iron
• 20:20 Iron infusions and the GI symptoms that follow
• 22:20 The macro minerals that influence iron regulation
• 23:40 Under-fueling, unaccounted losses, and dietary variety
• 26:00 "Should I get an infusion?" What her labs actually showed
• 28:20 What women are self-prescribing for iron
• 30:00 The takeaway

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Transcript

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1:11

Welcome back to the next episode of the Love Your Gut Podcast. This is round two with the Gut Together team. So if you missed round one, we did an entire episode on roadblocks that we see in our clients with gut issues, and round two is gonna be all about copper and iron. We have seen, I don't know how many iron and ferritin cases in the last maybe six to eight months. It's, it's been kind of wild, honestly, but also so fun. I feel like as a team, we have really just enjoyed some of these cases or all of these cases and honestly just learned so much and seen, seen so many patterns and seen a lot of missing gaps for especially clients who have had low ferritin for a long time and have possibly taken iron or tried iron infusions. And so we're gonna just have a roundtable discussion and chat all about that. So Macy and Tyler, welcome back. Thanks. Thank you. How do you feel about round two? Feel great. Ready to go- We're- talk about iron. We're racing against the clock a little bit because Macy, last time Macy came in town, we just got chatting, we were at lunch having a great time, and all of a sudden we looked at the time and I, I think I screamed out loud. And I was like, "You're not gonna make your flight." I think the flight was boarding, and you were, like, 45 minutes away from the airport. Yeah, it did not work. You definitely did not make it. Oh, no. I did not make it. Luckily there was a flight out at, like, 9:00 PM that night, so I just hung out in the airport for three to four hours, but- I was like, "Do you want me to come get you?" You were like, "I'm good." I'm like, "Okay." So we're gonna prevent that this time, so Macy is not gonna miss her flight. So we're gonna do rapid fire iron patterns that we keep seeing. So let's start with the first pattern that I wrote down, which is the iron supplement that doesn't move the needle. So I mentioned this when I was opening the episode, but this is probably the most common pattern that we see is people who have taken iron, their ferritin barely budges. They often feel worse, or maybe they start having GI issues as a result. We can chat through some of that, and the reality is they don't need more iron. It's a signal that the iron is not able to actually go where it needs to go. So let's just chat through that, like why do iron supplements not work? Like, what are some of the top reasons that we've seen in these clients that we've supported in such a concentration over the last six to eight months? Yeah, I think, I mean, the first one is just kind of thinking through, like, iron physiology. Your body has what's called the iron recycling system that literally recycles most of the iron you need on a daily basis. So unless somebody has, like, a true iron loss problem, like a bleed for example usually it's not a true iron issue because in reality your body should be recycling and regulating that. And, you know, maybe, you know, if you, if somebody's, like, fully vegan, for example, time and place where you, you actually probably are not getting enough iron. But usually if somebody has a balanced diet and they're, you know, eating good quality animal foods that are rich in minerals, including iron, there's usually some deeper imbalances at play that are causing that system to be dysregulated. And so essentially you're just adding iron into a system that might not truly need iron, it just needs regulating essentially. And that, that regulation might come from multiple different areas, and that's where kind of looking deeper is usually needed I, I think the analogy that works here is iron is not a faucet, right? Like, you don't just turn on the faucet- and all of a sudden you get more water, or iron in that case. It's a delivery system, and so there's just a lot more steps in the delivery process, and we've, like, way oversimplified in our culture what ferritin and iron actually need. Totally. There's a lot of... I mean, it's kind of crazy actually how many steps there are. Yeah, I would just echo you. Like when... if your iron is low or your ferritin is low, take iron. Sometimes it actually adds more fuel to a f- a fire- Mm-hmm in not a good way, obviously. Yeah. Yeah, I think m- like, along that note, one thing people don't realize, and I don't think is talked about enough, is that more iron is just feeding infections if there is a GI piece, which I don't know what percentage of our clients would you say that have low iron also have GI issues? 100? 99. Yeah. There's a lot. Yeah. They might not be horribly constipated- like some of our clients, but they probably are bloated or maybe they are h- having acid reflux or- something else, and they think that they're two separate issues, but they're not. Yeah. Totally, definitely. Okay, pattern number two is copper. We were talking about this at our pictures because what else do you talk about at team pictures? Just normal, normal things. Yeah. So Macy, lead us off. I feel like this has kind of been your thing that you're always talking about. Yeah. Cha- chapter four, copper I do like talking about this. Yeah. I feel like this is your brainchild a little bit. Yeah, so I mean, there's a big copper connection with iron. And, you know, there's a lot to copper regulation too, which can get a little bit nuanced, but one of the big things with your iron recycling system is you need what's called, like, bioavailable copper to essentially recycle iron in the body. And not to get in the weeds, but there's an enzyme that's made in the body called ceruloplasmin, and that enzyme literally shuttles copper around the body so it can be used in, like, all your metabolic processes that take place. So if you don't have enough of that enzyme being produced essentially to shunt and move copper around, then your iron's gonna become dysregulated, whether that looks... You know, that can look different for people, but we see it, you know, a few different patterns. Sometimes we see, like, essentially, like, a high tissue iron on an HTMA, but their ferritin and their blood work looks really low. And so we know, like, okay, hey, this isn't necessarily, like, truly an iron issue. It's more so a recycling problem, and then we look a little bit deeper into their copper and their ceruloplasmin and those are, those are also dysregulated. So working a lot on copper can help a lot from an iron s- standpoint and usually copper is a little tricky because sometimes it can be truly a deficiency of copper, and w- sometimes we have to dig a little into maybe why that is. Or it could be a dysregulated copper, similar to iron, where essentially copper isn't usable to the body. It's, it's building up in the tissue because we aren't transporting it around appropriately. And so once we kind of, you know, piece all those things together on what's driving maybe that copper-iron dysregulation we can start to essentially turn back on the, the iron recycling system Why would someone not be using copper appropriately? Or like what are some of the top reasons that we see copper high in the tissues? So we use HCMA testing here, tissue mineral analysis, and we do see high copper on HCMA. And sometimes we'll see low copper in the blood, or maybe we might see normal copper. But why would someone have biounavailable copper? Yeah, that's a good question. It can be a variety of things. I would say a, a big one, honestly, is like chronic stress, just because your adrenal function is super important for that ceruloplasmin regulation. Poor liver health is also a really big one, like thinking about like, you know, whether that's Coming from, like, the burden that your liver's having to process, or maybe that's coming from other factors, like, you know, poor metabolic health and things like that. But ceruloplasmin's actually, you know, made and produced in the liver. So I would say there's a big adrenal/liver component for a lot of people, and maybe why that copper is a little dysregulated. It can also sometimes be, like, an exposure. I, I would say we don't see that... We see that a f- decent amount, but it's usually probably not the, the s- the biggest reason we see. But I would say there's a big hormone com- component with copper. So if somebody h- you know, has a history of a lot of hormonal birth control, for example, or you know, just really chronically dysregulated, like, iron and progesterone balance, whether that's coming from some sort of hormone therapy, or it's coming from, you know, somebody that has some underlying hormone imbalances at play, and they're just maybe not producing enough progesterone. Copper and estrogen kind of follow each other in the body. So if there's a lot of hormone, estrogen-related stuff, and sometimes it's like chicken or egg scenario. Like, did the copper stuff come before the estrogen-related stuff or, or vice versa? But there is a big, a big connection between that. And then maybe it's, like, an actual overexposure. I feel like this doesn't happen as much, but, like, you know, if someone lived in a home that had, like, copper pipes, and they were getting a lot of exposure through, like, through drinking water, or maybe someone, like, drinks out of copper cook- or copper cups and cooks in all copper cookware you know, that certainly could be a component of that. But I think a lot of the, the bio and availability issue usually stems from the stress-liver component, for sure, for a lot of people. Yeah. I feel like those are really common ones, but- Yeah. And, and I would say to add there, too, you know, looking at the other mineral con- connections. So that's where, like, HTMA and blood work can be helpful, but, you know, there can be, like, a dietary component to that if someone's, like, not getting good retinol in their diet, or maybe they're not getting good sources of, like, whole food vitamin C, just because we need retinol, which is kind of your active vitamin A. And then we need vitamin C to actually bind copper to that enzyme. So sometimes, honestly, it's an easy fix of, like, hey, let's tweak diet a little and- and make your diet a little bit more focused in on some of the, the mineral nutrient deficiencies that are going on. And then sometimes it's some of the, the more deeper stuff going on or, or a combination of the two. So we don't just take copper? Right? No. It's like a rhetorical question. But- Yeah I mean, I just, I, I can see someone listening to this being like, "Oh, okay." Just take copper. I'll just go take copper. What's- It also makes me think of what we were talking about on the last episode too, of like, like over-supplementation of this, you know, of certain things. So for example, like in the copper scenario maybe this is more tied to like, like low copper, but like there was an era of time, and I think is we're still kind of in that era a little bit, where people are like really mega dosing, like certain minerals specifically like zinc and sometimes- other ones that like, again, like I keep saying like it's all plays off of each other. So if that's something we're doing, it can really lower something like copper, which as Macy's describing, can like influence iron regulation too. Yeah, for sure. And I think zinc's a, like a super common mineral- Yeah that people just like blindly mega dose. 'Cause you, you know, you hear all about zinc for immunity and hey- all the things. So, I feel like that's, that's one that's kind of mega dosed inappropriately sometimes and, and that can h- can backfire from like a copper iron standpoint for sure. I have this theory, and I think I've told you guys this before, but I think that we have a lot more iron issues now than we did six years ago because everybody was mega dosing zinc during COVID. But that's just my own- theory. But yeah, you're right. I mean, I even had a client the other day who was taking zinc and I'm like, "What are you taking that for?" And she's like, "Well, I was just traveling." So I like, I think it's just such a common, oh, if you're trying to not get sick, take zinc. And while that is true, there... You don't wanna start playing like Whac-A-Mole with all these minerals. Yeah. There's guardrails. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. We usually describe, well I usually describe minerals to clients like minerals work in a symphony. So you know, if the piano guy is off tune, the violinist is gonna get off. Same with, with minerals. If we start to play Whac-A-Mole and, you know, blindly supplement with things, it's gonna affect like the whole cascade essentially. So the other pattern that we've seen, maybe less often, but we still have seen it, is ferritin actually being high and ferritin as, like, an acute phase inflammation marker. So low ferritin is a problem, but so is high ferritin. Ferritin is kind of a Goldilocks mentality, where like not too hot, not too cold. And yeah, we'll see high ferritin, but we also will see s- like some wonky ferritin patterns where maybe you might be making steady progress on your ferritin and then it, it drops and before it's about to go back up as the body's kind of regulating. So Tyler, I'm curious, like, just your thoughts on some of the, like, things that we think about ferritin or, like- Mm-hmm why are people told That a ferritin of 20 is okay? I don't know. Oh, no. I think what's interesting, and we... Like, I recently had someone like this too, where they come to us and their ferritin is at a certain level. Maybe they have, like, all of the symptoms that are commonly associated with low ferritin. We get their testing, like their HTMA and their GI map back, and we start addressing whatever is, whatever shows up there. And then they maybe get their ferritin and other iron labs done again, and it moves in the direction they weren't expecting. Oftentimes, people feel better, so, like, we have to consider that as part of the puzzle, too in their picture. So, like, what are their symptoms and how have they changed? And then what have we done that could make that number move in the direction you weren't expecting, like it went down? And like Macy said, this is a whole system, and we, like we can't, again, we can't like direct the body how to use certain things, but we can watch how it shifts. And so if the shifts are happening in a way that makes the iron recycling system work better, sometimes you'll see it go down before you actually see it go up. So that's, that's a perfect example where we're not necessarily trying to chase a lab value, but we're, we're just observing, too, how you're feeling. And then, of course, we wanna monitor that. But yeah, sometimes it, it changes in that direction before it moves where we want it to, or where we want- would like to see it. And this is why just looking at lab results is- Mm-hmm not helpful. Like, you have to take the labs and, and other labs and compare them. You can't just look at ferritin and say, "Oh, well, your ferritin's worse, so it didn't work." Well, what about your copper and ceruloplasmin- Yeah like Macy said, or your iron saturation? Like, the body is going to go through an adjustment phase, which that can sometimes be hard, like mentally to see that. Mm-hmm. But the body is doing what it's supposed to do. It just might not look that way on paper. Yeah. Looking at those other labs, too, like iron, iron saturation, are really helpful, too, piecing it together. So we've seen some crazy gut infections s- with our clients that have ferritin issues. So I guess in, in both of your opinions, what are the most common gut infections that you've seen over the last six to eight months when it comes to ferritin issues? What comes to mind? I feel like I, I've seen extremes. I've seen, like, just the H. pylori, and then recently I saw, like, it was lit up. Their GI map was lit up. And in that case, I was like, "Well, this makes a lot of sense, too, why your ferritin and iron numbers aren't shifting." But the H. pylori piece, I think I've seen a lot. At a degree, that is elevated, like, not necessarily just present on the GI map. And again, like, we're kind of always asking why. So if, if there is H. pylori elevated on the GI map, how does that impact digestion? And so we were talking about this earlier, like, if your body, like, if absorption is the issue and your body's not breaking down foods that contain rich am- rich amounts of iron in them, like protein, animal protein, then, then it's how are you gonna get the iron out of it? And so, like, I am often describing to people on, on video with my hands, but, like, if you imagine, like, a, like a really long string of pearls, like a necklace, but then you tied it in a knot, and then you tied it another knot. Like, inside of that w- weird shape is that's where iron is. And in order to digest that, you have to untie the knot, untie the knot, and still at that point, you haven't gotten the iron yet. You have to, like, pull off each string or each pearl from the string. And so that's a l- like, that's a big piece of the puzzle, too, for people of when we think about the gut, like, and how that pra- plays a role in, um, like, ferritin and iron issues, too. Like, are we actually getting the iron from the body? And then, of course, like, downstream, too, there's things that influence that in a way that prevents our body from getting it. But step one, too, is always are we even breaking food down that contains iron? That's so good, that analogy. Thanks. I've never heard you say that before. Well, yeah. I came up with it recently. You should see- on the video. I'm like, "You know a string of pearls." This should actually be a YouTube video- yeah is what you're saying my clients are probably like, "She said that to me." I love that. It's evolved- I mean- because sometimes it doesn't click. But- So I've changed it yeah, I- I'm always coming up with analogies- Oh, yeah on the spot, and I'm like, "Did that make sense?" They're like, "Yeah, I guess." Kinda. Okay, good. But it sometimes just helps it to click. Like, you- Yeah can tell people things, and I know I've been told things before, but until I have a visual- Mm-hmm like, then it really makes sense. Yeah. You're the queen of metaphors, though, so. Yeah, you really are. I'm always thinking of ways to describe things. Yeah. My poor kids. Yeah. So that's one of them, H. pylori. I also just would say even too, like downstream, like the other gut infections that we see in dysbiosis too. Um- Mm-hmm because, like, those pathogens essentially in a simplified way can steal iron from your body, or from you, like, as the host essentially, um, from absorbing it. Because they... It's called sequester, but essentially they feed off of it, which then means your body cannot absorb it. So it's another way of I've eaten it, I've digested it, it's made it to the point of absorption, but is unable to because there's something blocking it from doing so. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would say that's a big one we see. Yeah. But- There's just a lot of, you know, dysbiosis, gut inflammation- Mm-hmm pathogens at play. So there's a kind of a sequestering pattern that goes on, and that's where, like, the blood work and the HTMA together are really helpful, 'cause usually in the... Not always, but a lot of the time we'll see that, like, okay, your tissue iron, you know, the body's kind of like holding onto or like storing iron- Or you have iron in, in the t- in the wrong spot because- Yeah you have so much going on in the gut. It's almost like a protective mechanism. Mm-hmm. It is kind of weird to think about, you know, there are pathogens in your gut that are like, you take an iron pill and they're like, "Yes." Oh my goodness. It's a buffet. I'm so happy. You know? But it's like, it's crazy how that happens. Yeah. And I mean, unfortunately, that's what happens to a lot of people, is they go get an iron infusion and they're like, "I had horrible GI issues after." And, like, that can be why, is like you just woke back up all these underlying- Mm-hmm infections that they didn't know were there. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay, we kind of talked about this a little bit, but if there's anything that we wanna add, and that was that idea of the mineral symphony, of minerals not working alone or, like, you know, it's a team sport, it's not an individual sport. Anything we missed there on just minerals working together as a symphony? I can pause it for a second I can hear it, but I don't know if it's- I don't think I can hear it in here. Mm-mm. Okay. Not sure. We'll hope for the best. Or d- maybe just s- say, like, "Do you mind just talking a little quieter?" I think he's trying to tell her, "It's not loud." Oh, she's locked out. Tyler, can you grab? Yeah Okay, so anything we missed on that, on that section of iron or minerals working as a sports team or working as a symphony? Um, anything to, anything to add? Yeah, I mean, I would say there's a lot that we're looking at when somebody's iron's imbalanced, but we always talk about, you know, kinda your main four macro minerals. So, you know, what's... Especially I would say from an iron regulation standpoint, looking at magnesium, sodium, potassium regulation just 'cause those are indirectly gonna have an im- influence on how someone's physiology is running from an iron standpoint. Obviously, they're needed for a million other d- other different things. But I would say those are probably three really big ones. We probably touched on it earlier, but obviously zinc just because of that's, how that's gonna influence copper regulation and then, you know, copper's super important for that iron recycling. And I would say, too, not necessarily minerals, but vitamins, vitamin A and vitamin C. I touched on those earlier, but those are gonna have a big impact on, on how your copper is working. So those would be probably the top ones, if I was to list them out, that we're looking at whenever we're kind of assessing somebody's iron patterns and, and what's going on there. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Yeah. I think it's just that, like, the takeaway is they all work together. Mm-hmm, yeah. You, you don't wanna just look at one mineral. You wanna look at how they're all functioning. Macey, you kind of mentioned this earlier about unaccounted losses. So you mentioned, like, a bleed or some reason that somebody would be losing iron, but we often have seen undereating and then unaccounted losses. What are some of the common things we've seen? And this I, I would say is a less common, especially the unaccounted losses, less common, but we have seen it. So, why would under-fueling matter? I mean, we've seen this in a couple runners for sure. Yes. Oh, why would underfuel- Well, I mean, you have to have... I mean, if we're talking about, like, all of these minerals, even all the things we've already said, copper, iron, vitamin A, vitamin C, if, again, like, you, you have to have enough coming in of those specific nutrients. And so it, it, it... You could think about, like, yes, underfu- fueling from a caloric standpoint, but also from a micronutrient perspective too. So, just quantity in general, having enough of what you need. Like, there are general amounts that most people need to consume every day f- to make these processes happen, and it ebbs and flows according to the need and probably the season of life as well. But it has, it has to be there in order to make the process happen. And then too, like, maybe not necessarily under fueling, but it makes me think too of variety. So if I'm eating the same thing every day, or if I'm, I don't know, a really picky eater and I don't have a- much variety in my diet, then it makes it hard to get nutrients too. 'Cause for example, like, you probably won't find me ever eating an oyster. I'm just not gonna do it. Same. But I know, I mean I know it's really rich in copper, so I'm thinking through, like, "Well, what other foods are rich in copper that I could consume?" And that doesn't need to be s- everybody's thought. But just on that note of, like, getting enough of these, these little fuel little guys. For sure. It's like your body, your body can't make iron- Yes just like it can't make any mineral. Totally. And, you know, we can make some vitamins- which is pretty cool that our body can do that, but we can't make minerals. Yeah. And so ultimately, if it's not coming in, it isn't gonna work. And so- but this is kind of the hopeful one, right? It's like, that's like a easier, quote, unquote- Mm-hmm "fix," is, okay, we get to look at what iron foods we're gonna add or what copper foods. Like you said- Yeah it's like a, it's an easy, easy fix. Okay, last thing is I wanna talk about... We've had, I think, I don't know how many, couple clients where they're emailing going, "Should I get an infusion?" And we're... It's a little hard to tell someone if they should get an infusion because obviously we're not their medical doctor, but we are on their medical team. And so Tyler, I'm thinking specifically of you. A recent client we had that was like "Should I get an infusion? I feel so exhausted. I feel so tired." And while we didn't recommend her to not get one, w- we were like, "Why don't you wait- Mm-hmm and see what your labs show?" What did we see? They changed. Mm-hmm. Like, because it wasn't necessarily that her body Didn't have iron. She did need some iron support in her case, but she n- more than, like, more iron from an infusion, she needed, like, gut attention. And she needed focus on, like, those co-factors and copper and all that too. So it's just one of those scenarios where we get it, like, you feel bad and you're not, like, able to show up however you want to. But like we said, like, sometimes more isn't more. In this case that was for her. She just needed the, the, the extra stuff, not necessarily the iron. I think we were all a little surprised. I mean, I think we didn't really know what to expect- Yeah but she was just saying how bad she felt- that we thought maybe she really does have actual low iron- Yeah and low ferritin. But then her iron, we were, like, a little bit shocked- Yeah that it was as good as it was. Yeah, totally. But she I mean, that doesn't discount how bad she felt- No at all. It just wasn't the fix for her. Yeah. But it's easy to want to just, like, "Oh, that might make me feel better." Yeah. You're des- you're kinda desperate, so it's hard to take that time. For sure. Okay, last thing I wanna touch on is what are the most common supplements that you see people coming to us on that they're taking to fix their iron that maybe, maybe they are or maybe they aren't helping? Like, what are the common things people are, like, self-prescribing? Iron. Yeah. Like all the different forms of iron. Yeah. All the forms of iron, probably high-dose, like ascorbic acid, which is essentially- Yeah, true just vitamin C, but not necessarily like the whole vitamin C complex. Those are probably the biggest two. I recently had someone taking, gosh, what did I tell you guys? Like 60 milligrams of iron or something. Oh, yeah. Who was taking like beef liver, another iron, and then another like whole food, kind of really high-dose form of iron in a multivitamin that had iron. Lo and behold, she was the one with all of the gut stuff going on. Yeah. So this is not a good trifecta. Yeah. But yeah, iron. And was her iron actually low? No. Actually it was not low. Did you see that? But her ferritin was- Was pretty, yeah pretty low. Yeah. Yeah. It's just so wild. I think it just proves that like more is not more, and we said that in the other episode. Like you need to understand the whole picture, the whole person, all the labs, all the things, which might feel like a lot of work, but honestly, would you guys agree that it's actually not more work to get this data? It simplifies the process. Yeah. You spend less time in the long run, I would say. Yeah. And, you know, if you're adding more iron, you don't need more iron, it's not... You're ultimately not g- not gonna feel better either. So it's worth it to take a step back and get more pieces of the puzzle to kind of figure out what's actually gonna move the needle too. What did we miss? Anything? I don't think so. I don't think so either. Okay. So take- Gotta catch my flight. Yeah. Macy's gonna make it to her flight. We're not gonna miss it this time. But the takeaway is, if you have low ferritin, maybe the first step for you is, we didn't talk about this, but get a full Monty, and just to maybe fact-check, see is your actual serum iron low? And if it is, that might be a different conversation. Obviously, we can still support you with that. But if your ferritin is low and your actual iron is decent, and some of the other labs are off, then that's like the entire conversation that we're having here- for sure. Yeah. Okay. What do you guys think of our team day? So fun. Are you tired? Really fun. Yeah. Okay. I love like hanging out in person. I know. Yeah, me too. It is so fun. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know how we all moved to the same place- with all of our lives, but- We were talking about that it is so fun. Yeah. Like Zoom is great, and Voxer is great, and Slack, all the things, but being in person is- Yeah you can't beat it. Yeah. Yeah. So fun. Agreed. Okay. Well, thanks guys for joining. This was so fun. We'll have to do it again now that you guys are pros. Yes, of course. Thank you everyone for listening. We'll catch you next time.