Practical Strategies to Manage Chronic Stress

In this engaging episode, Dr. Margaret Beeson shares her extensive journey in naturopathic medicine, highlighting the importance of understanding the underlying causes of health issues, particularly in women. 

Dr. Beeson and Dr. Smeaton also discuss:

• The rising levels of stress in modern society, especially post-COVID, and how it manifests in various health issues 
• How small lifestyle and dietary changes can help to manage stress 
• The importance of building strong patient-provider relationships
• The role stress plays in our health, including effects on sleep and gut health
• How stress responses vary between individual patients

Show Notes:

Learn about Dr. Beeson’s practice, Yellowstone Naturopathic Clinic.

Become a DUTCH Provider to get access to free educational resources, expert clinical support, comprehensive patient reports, and peer-reviewed and validated research.

Chapters

• 1:05 Podcast Intro
• 3:40 Introduction and Background of Dr. Beeson
• 17:35 The Impact of Stress on Health
• 30:58 Updates to the DUTCH Report
• 32:04 The Impact of Stress on Health (cont'd)
• 33:33 Gut Health and Stress Management
• 39:08 Understanding Stress and Its Impact
• 43:23 Individual Responses to Stress
• 52:26 Adrenal Support and Supplements
• 1:01:12 The Importance of Patient Relationships

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;24;27
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And food. That's a big issue because really women working and then you have fast food and look at all the fast food places. Well, the first fast food place, McDonald's, was called the big M in San Bernardino, California, when I was in high school. Right. And now they're like everywhere. So it's so crazy to be telling people are recommending for like 35 years about people reducing sugar and eating better.

00;00;25;04 - 00;00;27;15
Dr. Margaret Beeson
When our food chains only got worse. Right?

00;00;27;17 - 00;00;52;27
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Welcome to the DUTCH Podcast where we dive deep into the science of hormones, wellness and personalized health care. I'm Doctor Jaclyn Smeaton, chief medical officer at DUTCH. Join us every Tuesday as we bring you expert insights, cutting edge research, and practical tips to help you take control of your health from the inside out. Whether you're a health care professional or simply looking to optimize your own well-being, we've got you covered.

00;00;52;29 - 00;01;23;12
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
The contents of this podcast are for educational and informational purposes only. This information is not to be interpreted or mistaken for medical advice. Consult your health care provider for medical advice, diagnosis and treatment. Hi there! Welcome to this week's episode of the DUTCH Podcast. Today's guest really brought us down the road of integrative medicine and the path and the way that things have changed over the last few decades when it comes to the growth of integrative medicine and natural medicine, functional medicine, and more.

00;01;23;15 - 00;01;46;29
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
We really started because we want to talk about stress. That's why we had Doctor Beeson on the podcast, but we got a chance to also talk quite a bit about what it's like to be a natural doctor, how naturopathic medicine is different from functional medicine, and really the fact that so much has changed and there's been so much growth in this industry that's really opened up the opportunity for people to engage in these preventive strategies.

00;01;46;29 - 00;02;08;09
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And also there's pieces of it that are critical that we've moved away from. And I don't think I've heard anyone describe these elements so beautifully of the things that we need to do to really make integrative, functional, naturopathic medicine even better for the next several decades. I can't overlook that. We also talked about stress in a lot of depth today.

00;02;08;15 - 00;02;29;28
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
We covered some of the complexities of assessing stress, and also talked about if you're a provider in a rural community, or you might have patients who are not economically able to do a lot of advanced testing, how can you assess their stress? What symptoms and signs might you look for in their presentation, even if they don't tell you their stress, that might point to it?

00;02;30;05 - 00;02;48;29
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And then what are the most important lifestyle strategies that you can take to really make an impact for those patients? Or if you're a listener, what you can be doing for yourself. Doctor B's and also shared or favorite supplements and herbs and things like that. So you're going to get so much out of this episode. I'm really, really glad that you're here today.

00;02;49;02 - 00;03;21;08
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Now, Doctor Margaret Beeson is the founder of Yellowstone Naturopathic Clinic in Billings, Montana, and she has more than 40 years of experience in integrative medicine. Her background spans working in the Navy, nursing, midwifery, working as a physician's assistant and now doing naturopathic primary care. And she brings a very comprehensive and integrative approach to wellness. Doctor reason's also the co-founder and president of the Natural Path Education and Research Consortium, and she's been recognized nationally for her leadership in advancing naturopathic medicine.

00;03;21;09 - 00;03;40;09
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
She's been a big mentor of mine for literally decades as I was a student. She is so welcoming to new people entering natural path medicine. So many of you probably have engage with doctor BS in that conferences, maybe even on the dance floor, because you can tear it up. So before we waste any more time with her bio, let's go ahead and dive into today's episode.

00;03;40;11 - 00;03;45;11
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
So Doctor Beeson, thank you so much for being here with me on the podcast today.

00;03;45;13 - 00;03;46;19
Dr. Margaret Beeson
It's my pleasure.

00;03;46;22 - 00;04;03;05
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Now we go back a long way. I've known you for a really long time. You're one of the people that I looked up to you the most as I learned naturopathy, medicine and became a leader in the field. You've always been a supporter of all people, but women especially, and people who want to do more work in the field.

00;04;03;05 - 00;04;06;14
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And so I'm just starting by saying thank you.

00;04;06;16 - 00;04;13;22
Dr. Margaret Beeson
My pleasure. Thank you. It's an honor to be a naturopath and to be part of our profession. It's it's a tribe, right?

00;04;13;25 - 00;04;41;18
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
It's absolutely a tribe. Before we dive into our topic today, which is really centered around stress and women, and of course, there's so much to talk about there. I'd love you to share a little bit of your backstory because you have such a unique backstory. You're a natural Gothic physician. You've been practicing for many decades in Montana, and really someone who's, from my point of view, carried the heart of naturopathic medicine for a long time and through a lot of transitions in medicine in general.

00;04;41;25 - 00;04;46;26
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
So can you just share a little bit about your backstory for listeners who may not know you?

00;04;46;28 - 00;05;17;22
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Okay. Well, I, you know, when I graduated from high school in 1968, nobody really said, did you want to be a doctor to most women? There were probably a few, and, and and looking for a career. It was kind of the choice was nursing, and or a secretary or a teacher. Right. So I thought, okay, well, I'll be a public health nurse because that would sort of suit, having an opportunity to be of service to people.

00;05;17;22 - 00;05;19;08
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I'm a Virgo, so services.

00;05;19;08 - 00;05;24;05
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah, I'm over there too. That's that's why we have, like, that service connection there.

00;05;24;08 - 00;05;51;15
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah. Right. I think I knew that. So, I went to school in San Francisco University, San Francisco in 1968 so that the school was going through a big sort of revolution in a lot of ways. And there's Catholic, Jesuit college I went through to was, a couple blocks from Haight-Ashbury. So it was definitely, an experience for me to be in the middle of that.

00;05;51;17 - 00;06;09;12
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And so I started questioning whether nursing was right for me and it up. You know, working in the health food store during that period of time, which was really interesting to have people come in who had sort of been given up for dead and started taking supplements, and that made a difference in their life. So that intrigued me.

00;06;09;14 - 00;06;34;26
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And I worked, in, in a restaurant and in the, in the food industry, worked at that, mental health, sort of mental health services. Did some work in places, place like that, just sort of as I think it was a volunteer anyway. And then I, decided, I found out about physician's assistance. And in 1970, there were only two programs in the country.

00;06;34;26 - 00;06;54;18
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And you had to have already been, in the military. And then there there were actually set up those programs, people who had been in Vietnam to use their skills. Right. And so I'm like, okay, well, I think I'll try and see about joining the Navy and becoming a P.A.. So I joined the Navy and became a hospital corporation in the Navy.

00;06;54;21 - 00;07;24;25
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And it was interesting because in four years of doing that, if you really want to work and, you know, learn, you can do everything. So I worked on all kinds of wards and floors, and then I ended up being getting in this pilot program because they dismantled their program. And so this is a San Diego Naval Hospital where it was a massive outpatient clinic, and it was called Dynamic Programing, where we were trained with internal medicine doctor for six months to see a there are 12 of us to see patients in this little room and the doctors would rotate through.

00;07;25;02 - 00;07;48;28
Dr. Margaret Beeson
So we had 20 minutes to see a patient and we would do their physical exam, figure out what was going on. And then so this is by 1974 or 5. And then we would go out and talk to the physician. And these would refer to some department or, or their lab work or whatever. But we'd always do this physical so that, you know, at the same time I was taking extension classes and learning a little bit more about nutrition.

00;07;48;28 - 00;08;08;18
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And so I was definitely like, how am I going to marry these two things? So I thought when I got out of the Navy, I would go to medical school. So I went to, UC Davis, pre-med. And it was there that I, I challenge the boards of, what if you're in the military and have that training, you can get your nursing license.

00;08;08;18 - 00;08;34;02
Dr. Margaret Beeson
So I got my nursing license in California and worked as a nurse while I was going to premed, and and that was pretty cool. You know, I got to work at all the different hospitals and wards, and I really learned a lot. And I also was like, well, someone handed me a catalog of naturopathic medicine, and I it just fit and, so that I needed to finish my pre-med and do some other things.

00;08;34;02 - 00;08;54;27
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And, finally. And I ended up working for this doctor in California. That was in, 70, I think I've 70. I think it worked for them for a couple of years in the early 70s. And, he was a clinical psychologist. So that was the time when, that people were looking at chemical sensitivity for the first time.

00;08;54;27 - 00;09;14;00
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And he was doing provocative neutralization testing. Actually, that Doctor Cronin going to the first man in his environment conference down in Texas, he was a naturopath. I'm like, oh my God, that's what I want to be. Look at this beautiful human being, right? And then I also went to Alan, Gabby and Jonathan, right. And met Doctor Steve Austin there.

00;09;14;00 - 00;09;33;25
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And so these are these my models for these amazing. They were asking the most intriguing questions about this intelligent. I'm like, I want to be a naturopath, you know. So finally went and got accepted in 1985 and graduate from medical school and, did my residency with Doctor Milliman, who has family practice and fabulous and did a residency there.

00;09;33;25 - 00;09;58;04
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And also, I wanted to be a family practice doctor out in a rural environment. So I did midwifery as well, and then went to India to do childbirth in Amsterdam. And England, got our student loans after I graduated from medical school and traveled the world doing childbirth. So, and then I came to Montana Billings, where I've been for 33 years.

00;09;58;04 - 00;10;21;11
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And, really thought of myself in my first, article I wrote in Doctor Miliband's newsletter was being a bridge, between naturopathic and conventional medicine and really recognizing it. It isn't, you know, an either or that it's really that whole spectrum of people, having access to the proper tools at the proper time and educating them for what's available.

00;10;21;19 - 00;10;22;26
Dr. Margaret Beeson
So that's my story.

00;10;22;28 - 00;10;39;25
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
You know, I didn't know all those things at particular about your military service. That's amazing. And what a an interesting way to start your medical career, because I'm sure you saw pretty severe disease things that a lot of naturopathy doctors don't see in their typical training today in an outpatient only type of setting.

00;10;39;27 - 00;11;02;25
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah, it was, serving, retiree and dependents. So it was whole families of care. And then I ended up, the, the, person who's had the, of the program, the outpatient clinic, wanted to start a chronic care clinic. And so, this nurse and myself ran this clinic for about a year for diabetes and high blood pressure.

00;11;02;27 - 00;11;31;14
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And so that was really interesting because this, again, was in, they got out in 77, so it was probably 76. And 76. And I can remember being in a support group for me with diabetes and suggesting that people not eat sugar. And I was an absolute heretic. I got in trouble afterwards. Right? I was like, wow, that was like, you know, is like all you have to do is do insulin and you're, you're, you know, but we didn't even have hemoglobin A1.

00;11;31;14 - 00;11;39;29
Dr. Margaret Beeson
See. But your blood sugar fasting that those you to be 300. And that was okay. And it was like just inherently you know that that didn't make any sense. Right.

00;11;39;29 - 00;11;59;14
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And yeah, it's interesting because I think I want to make sure I talk about this in a way that's not disparaging to the medical system or to physicians who choose that conventional system. But what drew me to naturopathic medicine was the unanswered questions that I had as a patient. And I've shared this story before, but, you know, it kind of a similar line where, you know, I never got my period.

00;11;59;14 - 00;12;15;08
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
I had primary amenorrhea. And, it was a nurse practitioner in an ob gyn office who was lovely and said, well, we can put you on oral birth control. And then I'm like, well, don't you want to know why? You know, why this isn't happening? And what about when I want to have kids? And she's like, don't worry, there's a whole specialty around that.

00;12;15;08 - 00;12;23;00
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
They can give you meds to help you have kids. And it just to me, it was that unanswered question of like just feeling unsatisfied, not knowing what's wrong.

00;12;23;23 - 00;12;54;25
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And I could hear that in your story too, of just that, you know, that there's that space for everything and that natural curiosity. And I too had that kind of moment about naturopathy matters. And that's my training too is a natural method doctor. So you guys don't know as listeners, but I want to talk a little bit about this because we have a ton of brilliant guests and they all find, I'll say this medicine meaning like root, cause oriented, natural, integrative, functional naturopathic medicine, but they come from a wide variety of backgrounds.

00;12;54;25 - 00;13;15;10
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And one thing that I've learned from you and heard you teach about and speak about and model is like how naturopathic medicine is unique. And so can you talk a little bit about the context of like what's naturopathic medicine? How is it different from the other types of specialties that are engaging in similar approaches today?

00;13;15;12 - 00;13;38;03
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Well, I do think that is, that is I'm trying wanting to understand the, the underlying cause. I think that is what has attracted me and is really crucial, because oftentimes I'll say to a patient, this is not about giving you a supplement. And, it's about it doesn't matter if it's a supplement or a drug.

00;13;38;03 - 00;14;14;00
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Ultimately, maybe there's less issue there, but it really is about how can we help you identify yourself about what might be going on. How can we engage a person in their health process such that the relationship allows a person to learn more about their bodies, to understand the messages, and to become more empowered, about helping to make decisions about their, their care, you know, made choices that are are good for them.

00;14;14;02 - 00;14;29;16
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah, I love that. I mean, one of the ways that I think about it is like disease is not a random event for the most part. Sometimes it is, or it can feel that way, or we can't find the underlying cause. But a lot of it is patterns of our genetics combined with our lifestyle that lead us down.

00;14;29;16 - 00;14;41;09
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
But there is an element of control where when you change your behavior, you can change the outcome, or prevent an outcome. And I think that's a really empowering aspect of the type of care that we provide.

00;14;41;11 - 00;14;47;16
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Absolutely, definitely. And there's a there's an aspect of sustainability to it as well. Right.

00;14;47;19 - 00;14;48;22
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Talk more about that.

00;14;48;24 - 00;15;16;11
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah. Because I think it's not just a matter of giving a person a supplement. It's a matter of helping them, choose within their life what are the things that they can learn has sustain to increase the quality of their health? Because it's not it's not an immediate thing that happens. You know, you can't check all the vitamins, for instance, and go home and say, okay, I'm going to be better in a couple of weeks.

00;15;16;11 - 00;15;40;14
Dr. Margaret Beeson
It's like, if a person has had long term habits of antibiotic use over a long period of time or whatever, interventions might be the case, just even nutrition from the time they're young is like the process of experiencing, a quality of health that lets a person stay committed to that requires that they have some experience around. Right.

00;15;40;14 - 00;15;51;20
Dr. Margaret Beeson
It has to be like, oh yes, I've noticed this makes a difference. And it's not just about a pill, because oftentimes that might be a temporary fix, but it isn't really something that is sustainable.

00;15;51;22 - 00;16;06;26
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah. It's about just kind of like, making it so that the like really ultimately the way I view it is that if I'm doing my job well, you wouldn't need a pharmaceutical or a supplement to be able to live. I mean, if you need that forever and ever. Something's not coming together.

00;16;06;28 - 00;16;28;14
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah. Correct. Well, and that takes me to the functional medicine concept, but I just want to just step on that for a minute. I first met Doctor Bland in Nigeria two when I was working for the doctor in, Sacramento that was, had had, moved from being a conventional medicine family doctor to being the, clinical collagist and nutritional doctor.

00;16;28;14 - 00;17;00;28
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Right. And, and Doctor bland said a few years later that he created the concept of functional medicine for MDS and Kairos to be thinking in terms of the underlying cause. Right? That was the concept. But I think the challenge is that if you don't have that orientation or desire, then it's it's functional. I guess I use that word to create a bunch of test and then give supplements based on that.

00;17;00;28 - 00;17;21;22
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Right. And that is not how he ever meant it to be. That's just how it evolved. But I think it's very challenging. The fact that we have been so attracted is naturopathic medicine, because it really is about what is going on in the body, in this person. It's not just in general, it's not just what is the biochemistry, but it's like, let's look at this person.

00;17;21;29 - 00;17;35;12
Dr. Margaret Beeson
How do they get to this place, what is created, the disease they have, and how do we help them access what they need in order to reverse that process. And so it's way different than doing it like a test and giving pills.

00;17;35;15 - 00;17;56;27
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah. And one way that I explain it to patients is that, you know, we really fundamentally believe that the body has the ability innately to heal itself. And we all experience this. You get a cut, you know, you watch the scab form and then the scar form and then the scar disappears. There's our body has the capability to heal, and it's always moving in that direction in a optimal state.

00;17;56;27 - 00;18;16;29
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And so really I think we think about it as we call them obstacles. Yeah, right. How do you remove the obstacle there are those barriers to care. We're going to get to that one of them today, which is stress. But I think fundamentally this is a very interesting piece because obstacles to cure sometimes can't be identified on a blood test.

00;18;16;29 - 00;18;33;24
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
It might be a traumatic relationship. It might be, you know, living around chemicals that can't be detected by testing yet. You know, I think there's so many things that come into play there that can impact our ability to heal and cure early.

00;18;33;24 - 00;19;04;28
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I totally agree with that. And I think, that is the benefit of meeting with the person and having long time with them and getting to know them. My my, logo is a handshake over the caduceus. So it's about relationship. It's about a we create a relationship. We start that relationship in the beginning, as I learned about you, I learned how you want to proceed, you know, and then that starts to unfold in a way that allows a person to, you know, learn more.

00;19;04;29 - 00;19;14;03
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Like I said, remove, like you said, identify the obstacles and help a person figure out how they can get rid of those obstacles.

00;19;14;06 - 00;19;35;10
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah. The other piece with functional medicine, which I'm I'm a big fan of, I think it's great that more providers from different backgrounds are working with patients in this way. And it's it's different from a naturopathic physician. I think it's wonderful that people are starting to incorporate this into their practices. So I really enjoy, like talking with colleagues who come at this from different places.

00;19;35;18 - 00;19;59;12
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And I also feel as like a pretty unique advantage, having gone to naturopathic medical school in training, because that methodology is taught from the very first year where and I've talked to people who have gone back to medical school, I think about like I've even Rahm, as example, trained as a midwife and herbalist, which I think her training was really more natural in origin, like a lot of herbalist think similarly.

00;19;59;12 - 00;20;15;22
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Right then she went to Yale Medical School, and I also have friends who've trained in acupuncture. I got in nursing school, you know, gone back to conventional medical school and gotten an NP so that they have a better scope of practice in their state. And then you end up seeing or what I hear back from them is like, the model is just so different.

00;20;15;22 - 00;20;32;15
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
It's hard to even figure out how to marry the two because it's apples and oranges. So yeah, you know, I do think what a blessing to have chosen the path I chose. For me, it was the right path. I meant to have that model of assessment and kind of the thought processes that we're trained on.

00;20;32;20 - 00;20;49;25
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah, I agree, and we do need it all and we need it all. We need the people are good, especially as we refer. All right. So who's totally in the specialty field to be able to say, hey, absolutely. You know, get us your opinion, give us your expertise and then we can help the patient and navigate that road with all that information.

00;20;50;01 - 00;21;13;01
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Know. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, we're best at the bottom of the pyramid where it's like the diet and lifestyle management. And then the top of the pyramid is drugs and surgery. If you can imagine those levels of intervention and ultimately we're very top heavy in the United States right now. And it's exciting to like trickle into the bottom because we really need more people to address things with patients at that level before you hit the need for drugs and surgery, like ultimately that's the the great fix.

00;21;13;01 - 00;21;14;15
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
If we can get there from obviously.

00;21;14;15 - 00;21;15;24
Dr. Margaret Beeson
People want it, you.

00;21;15;24 - 00;21;17;12
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Know. Yeah, know.

00;21;17;14 - 00;21;26;13
Dr. Margaret Beeson
The internet wouldn't be for us. All of the people that are doing that which is has its own issues. But you see that there is a demand for it.

00;21;26;15 - 00;21;49;20
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I love the trends that we see right now with younger generations, like alcohol use has never been lower. I mean, there's our own like we have social media challenges and engagement and relationship that I think is on the flip side of that. But generally, I think the younger generation has a lot more proactive, interest in health compared to the generations above them, which is going to be amazing.

00;21;49;20 - 00;22;01;04
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
There's this natural tendency to want to seek this out. And that's why we see these companies like Function Health doing the blood testing kind of more proactively out of pocket. Preventatively like the whole model starting to really shift, which is exciting.

00;22;01;07 - 00;22;03;06
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah, yeah I agree. Cool.

00;22;03;09 - 00;22;24;16
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Well, thank you for spending some time talking a little bit about that because I think for people who are listening, maybe you're you are a health care provider trained another, approach and you're curious about all the different avenues to become kind of a more integrative health provider. You know, Doctor Beason is an awesome resource. And you've seen, like even the iterations of naturopathy medicine and how things have changed over time.

00;22;24;18 - 00;22;25;12
Dr. Margaret Beeson
That's true.

00;22;25;14 - 00;22;26;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah.

00;22;26;09 - 00;22;45;11
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Well I wanted to ask about that. Just you know I've had 20 years of a relationship with the Saint Vincent Hospital where we, our residents rotate to be able to do that seamless work with patients that have cancer. So it definitely is a whole spectrum of care that we are part of the health care team, you know?

00;22;45;12 - 00;23;09;03
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah, I've always modeled that in degrees. And, you know, it's not about being a standalone system. It's about being an important part of an overall system. I also, you know, wanted to highlight your work with Nurk before we dive in the, that's your path education and residency consortium, which is a group of physicians all over the country who are working together to provide more residencies for natural by the doctors.

00;23;09;03 - 00;23;15;10
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Your clinic was one of the first to be part of that group. And I just appreciate your dedication to ongoing training for people you know.

00;23;15;10 - 00;23;30;29
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Thank you. That was started by Doctor Hudson and I, and it was so that we could create, more opportunities for residencies, in clinical settings. And, basically what what I and she do is raise money to be able to support those residencies.

00;23;31;02 - 00;23;34;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
So, yeah, we're a proud sponsor of our kids. So great are.

00;23;34;07 - 00;23;36;13
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And I'm so grateful. Thank you for that.

00;23;36;13 - 00;23;46;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Really. Yeah. I mean it's something that is really important in order to get great training. You know, you we want more more residencies available for naturopathic doctors. Yeah. Thanks for your work I agree I agree.

00;23;46;07 - 00;23;46;27
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yes.

00;23;46;29 - 00;24;12;09
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Well, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about one of the fundamental pieces of good health, which is stress. And it seems as though today, while we have everything at our fingertips, stress has only increased, even though we have all these tools to make life, quote unquote, easier. I was talking with my husband about this the other day because I'm in that generation that grew up without cellphones.

00;24;12;09 - 00;24;29;20
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
You know, we didn't have the internet. I mean, when I was in high school, we got dial up or maybe college. I didn't get an iPhone until after I graduated medical school. I mean, there's just, like these interesting ways we tell time now. But, you know, even with the onset of email, we think about email and the ease of business.

00;24;29;22 - 00;24;54;15
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
With email, you can't imagine living without it right now. But it has life really gotten easier with email or has it just gotten more complicated and faster? So I think, you know, we've really seen these times where stress is really at an all time high. Yeah, post-Covid anxiety and depression. And like so many people are struggling. Can we talk a little bit about with like the women that you see in your practice?

00;24;54;15 - 00;25;04;21
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
I know use family practice. So not just women but men as well. In this primary care setting, how do you most often see chronic stress show up?

00;25;04;24 - 00;25;35;08
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Oh, I think obviously the first is sleep. Disruption in sleep. And also probably, well, overeating. I think that's a big way that women, get nurtured, particularly a lot of people. But I think with women, it's a self nurturing. We don't have time when you're working and taking care of kids. And also, you know, then that contributes to more stress because the food isn't optimal.

00;25;35;08 - 00;26;02;18
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And, then there's obviously more frequent illnesses, there's digestive complaints. I think those are probably some of the main ways and maybe also a little bit more difficulty going through perimenopause, which is interesting. And maybe we just have created more of a, context for women to be able to express that and complain, you know, complain, but express, ask for help with it than we had prior.

00;26;02;21 - 00;26;11;18
Dr. Margaret Beeson
But, it's it's definitely a women are really struggle through it more than I recall in the past.

00;26;11;20 - 00;26;27;14
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah. I think another thing that's really shifted with that is with women working, but now oftentimes working remotely, there's a lot of isolation, like when you're in that juggle there seems to be less opportunity for connection and community. Then historically, you have to really carve it out and make it.

00;26;27;16 - 00;26;29;14
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah, yeah. It's true.

00;26;29;16 - 00;26;53;08
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah. So you mentioned sleep. You mentioned GI disorders, which is really interesting because it's like let's talk a little bit about those two pieces a bit more. So you know, because sleep obviously people wake up with ruminating thoughts and maybe trouble falling asleep, trouble getting back to sleep. Are there do you see those come up with acute stressors or they just kind of creep in over time?

00;26;53;10 - 00;26;56;08
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Oh, I think it's. Try both.

00;26;56;10 - 00;26;57;10
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah, but,

00;26;57;13 - 00;27;25;03
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Some people will tell you I've had trouble sleeping since high school. You know, we so many factors when it comes, there's the emotional factor, there's safety factors. There's, financial factors, you know, is it a good mattress? You know, what do you have to, you know, and, and whether there's enough sleep or, or, shift work, you know, like, for instance, with nurses, that can be really a challenge.

00;27;25;05 - 00;27;31;05
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Shift work can is a big impact on regular sleep cycles. So,

00;27;31;08 - 00;27;39;08
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And what about the GI health, do you think it's always been recognized that stress can cause GI disruption? Or when do we start making that connection?

00;27;39;11 - 00;28;03;24
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Well, when it comes to just irritable bowel, you know, I don't think that we heard so much about, reflux or Gerd symptoms way back when. That was sort of a new, a new thing. We didn't have memories. You know, we didn't have endoscopes we were using. We were using when I first practice, we were using, barium, upper gi.

00;28;04;00 - 00;28;05;09
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
That'll be our swallows. Yeah.

00;28;05;12 - 00;28;35;29
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah. So you would do barium for the esophagus in the stomach. So you can really look for ulcers, but you really could look for things like, sev eosinophilic esophagitis or even just straight esophagitis. Not unless you really had a large lesion there, you know? So, I think that is a huge factor. I mean, think about the factor of of, the upper s the upper digestive tract is now you have a food chain that's completely altered.

00;28;36;01 - 00;29;02;13
Dr. Margaret Beeson
You have soda pops that are so prevalent that weren't prevalent, probably you in the 50s and 60s, people did it, you know, but starting well, when do we start getting those, you know, gallons or half gallons? Sheesh. Well, yeah. And food, that's a big issue because really women working and then you have fast food and look at all the fast food places.

00;29;02;18 - 00;29;27;27
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Well, the first fast food place, McDonald's, was called the big M in San Bernardino, California, when I was in high school. Right. And now they're like everywhere. So it's so crazy to be telling. People are recommending for like 35 years about people reducing sugar and eating better when our food chains only got worse. Right. And so I just I've never been to chick fil A as what it's called.

00;29;27;28 - 00;29;30;14
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Like my kids love Chick-Fil-A. I've got three points.

00;29;30;14 - 00;29;32;23
Dr. Margaret Beeson
So is it decent? What is it?

00;29;32;26 - 00;29;49;09
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Well, I mean, I really couldn't speak to it. We don't go very often. Thankfully, there's still like 45 minutes from where we live. So now it's Raising Cane's. That's the one that the boys all want, which is seems to be using more fresh food, but it's still deep fried. It's like deep fried everything and probably made in advance and sent out and can't speak to the quality of it.

00;29;49;09 - 00;29;51;29
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
But it's not home cooked meals for sure.

00;29;52;02 - 00;30;31;02
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah, well, that's. And so again, contributing to the digestive issues is the stress of a woman attempting to, go to work, raise her kids shop, make food, do the laundry right, and then say you're going to go to a fast food. So then you put on top of it, a decrease in the nutrition, plus the discomfort of what the food feels like in the body, which is the reflux, plus the stress, which is getting attributed to changes in either hypochlorite diarrhea or increased acid production, you know, and then do you even have time to sit in the toilet and have a stool?

00;30;31;05 - 00;30;54;23
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Or the fiber is so low, so it's hard to have stool and then, you know, you go through perimenopausal changes when you have changes in the intestinal tract, which also might make it harder. So then you got to energy some fiber and introduce other things to help their digestive tract work. So just a lot of numerous factors to address when you're looking at the impacts of stress.

00;30;54;26 - 00;30;59;28
Dr. Margaret Beeson
On a, on a, anybody but on a woman in particular.

00;31;00;02 - 00;31;29;24
DUTCH
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00;31;29;26 - 00;31;53;04
DUTCH
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00;31;53;04 - 00;32;01;13
DUTCH
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00;32;01;15 - 00;32;04;07
DUTCH
Welcome back to the DUTCH podcast.

00;32;04;09 - 00;32;18;25
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah, I'm glad that we're talking about there's no more gut health and the relationship there because it is so interesting. I mean, one of my favorite books I talk about this on the podcast all the time is the book Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers by Aldi. I know it, I know.

00;32;18;25 - 00;32;19;07
Dr. Margaret Beeson
It.

00;32;19;07 - 00;32;49;27
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah, it's an oldie, but that was really eye opening for me. I think I first read it in the early 2000, but every chapter is a different system of the body, and he goes through the science of like what shifts happen and this is like, this isn't new, this isn't, contested. There's tons of data out there on this, but we see all these shifts, and gut health is such a particularly interesting one to look at because you have like you've talked about, like the upper GI problems that can happen with stress.

00;32;49;27 - 00;33;15;21
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
You secrete acid differently. That means you digest proteins differently. You secrete enzymes differently. Then you can't extract the nutrients from your food. And so that's the first is like your your digestive system's ability to to get the nutrients out. Then you talked about the complexities kind of of that social interaction of when you're under stress, you choose foods that are less healthy due to shortage of time or change in resources that are available.

00;33;15;28 - 00;33;33;14
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
So you're putting less good stuff in. And then the third piece of it that we haven't talked about yet is that the nerves that drive good function in the gut are the parasympathetic nervous system, like our vagus nerve, for example, when when you're under stress and you're in that sympathetic state, the gut is one of the first to suffer.

00;33;33;14 - 00;33;42;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And that's, you know, biologically important. But it's working against us right now. Can you share a bit more about that aspect of gut function, too?

00;33;42;09 - 00;34;09;12
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I went one of my residents often will tell ask, ask a person specifically how? Where do they where do they eat these standing up? Or how much time do they sit and eat? And I think that's a that is a really beautiful concept is to remind people that, you know, sitting with your food, does definitely supports a relaxation response that is going to, enhance the whole digestive process.

00;34;09;12 - 00;34;30;06
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And, that definitely is a challenge for people to, find the time to do that when you're running out of the house to get the kids to school or, and then to get to work and, maybe don't take time at lunch because you're answering emails back to the email thing, you know, and then at home, what are you doing on the way home to get your kids to sports?

00;34;30;08 - 00;35;01;07
Dr. Margaret Beeson
How does that dinner happen? So I think, the relationship again, support sitting with a person and starting out. What can you do? You know, can you take something for lunch and sit with that? Can you do a shake in the morning on the way with some liver supportive type substances, you know, that will allow you to, you know, not have to go out of the house without anything at all, you know, so, it gets back to the relationship.

00;35;01;07 - 00;35;23;06
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And I think one of the things that I had wrote in thinking about this was just really helping, identifying what a patient can do, what is how what can they do financially? What can they do time wise? What are their motivations? What's their energy, you know, and where is it that, you know, I always say start with sleep, start with stool and start with food.

00;35;23;06 - 00;35;41;27
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And and where can you impact those three things on an individual? When you're seeing the signs of of stress, you know, everything can change all at once. But you can certainly figure out with them which of those three things, because I think they're really core, important things. What can you start with?

00;35;41;29 - 00;35;49;11
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
I love that, and allowing them to get success in one area, it kind of breeds success in the next area because you have confidence that you can actually make a change.

00;35;49;13 - 00;36;18;13
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah, yeah. And and you have the not just the confidence but just the feedback. That's one of the things that we often will start with is a three week detox. It's kind of on the, the pattern that Doctor Bland used to do when he did the flight program years and years ago, which is three weeks. And when you do a medical food and you still have never go without eating, and we, we always talk about, the five areas of elimination.

00;36;18;13 - 00;36;51;17
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Right. So making sure that things are moving the gut, having them do, hot and cold of some sort, having them do, something to stimulate, elimination from the gut. Take the rest of the liver by doing the medical foods. Supply the ingredients for the liver to detoxify for the detoxification pathways. And then, depending on what they're taking in the level of their health, adding in some, liver tropics to increase the flow of collagen, bile and blood to deliver.

00;36;51;17 - 00;37;23;16
Dr. Margaret Beeson
So it's so amazing the impact that has on a person. It's so educational to say, oh, when I'm not eating these snacks or, you know, because because there are snacks, you, you, you know, fruit or vegetables for snacks. But when you're not eating the sugar or the candy or the soda pop and you're having regular stool and you're maybe, celebrating that with doing, you know, a hot bath with some Epsom salts or a sign and cold that those core things.

00;37;23;19 - 00;37;46;12
Dr. Margaret Beeson
After three weeks, the person is like, oh my goodness, I haven't felt like this in years, you know? And then like, people will come back every year and do it again or twice a year. But that experience of like, what it's like to just invest yourself in just a few weeks of look, all the, the ways that our body functions optimally and what what does that feel like?

00;37;46;15 - 00;37;59;20
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And then knowing which parts of that you can carry on your life in a way that will help to continue to help you create those habits that are going to, support your wellbeing.

00;37;59;22 - 00;38;22;25
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah. I love that because I think sometimes when people come in and they think about changing something for the rest of their life, let's say it's like cutting back on soda, right? If they love their Diet Coke in the afternoon, the thought of getting rid of that can feel impossible. But if you say, I want you to do it for three weeks, along with these other things, most of us can do anything for three weeks, right?

00;38;22;25 - 00;38;44;24
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
We can do. We can make those changes. And then the the outcome of that is what inspires a longer term change. And I've seen that too. And I think sometimes patients are so surprised, like there is this one group that I've worked with that does weight loss. And but it's very nature publicly oriented. It's like, you know, 30 minutes of exercise every day, and then they have a meal plan they put out.

00;38;44;24 - 00;39;05;28
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
But what they teach is whole foods based nutrition and drinking enough water. It's like pretty simple. It's like these three pillars move your body, drink water, eat the right food. And the whole food is week one. Like the whole first week, the program is like, what is a whole food? And they simplify it. And sometimes even by the end of week one when they're only guidance people have is like, eat food that grows from the ground or had a mother.

00;39;05;28 - 00;39;27;16
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And that's how they describe it, just that alone. People are like, I can't believe it. I'm sleeping through the night or gosh, I'm out of the bathroom or my mood is better or my stomach doesn't hurt anymore. And you're when you're in these groups and you can hear people's responses just to eating whole food, it's sometimes it still shocks me how impactful that very simple.

00;39;27;16 - 00;39;30;27
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Recommend me. Yeah, I agree, I love that.

00;39;30;29 - 00;39;34;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
It definitely shocks that that people that are participating, you know, you can tell.

00;39;34;07 - 00;39;45;08
Dr. Margaret Beeson
But I think so because the habit that we have in our world of the kind of food that people have access to and they're having all the time, it feels normal, right?

00;39;45;08 - 00;39;46;03
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Right.

00;39;46;05 - 00;40;00;13
Dr. Margaret Beeson
It's not normal. It's common, but it's not normal. And, so when a person is like, oh, that really makes a difference. And that's something I wasn't too hard to do and I can do that's, that's that's very powerful.

00;40;00;20 - 00;40;16;02
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah. Or that feeling of like, oh my gosh, I can feel this way. Like, I think that's the other thing people have. They don't even know where their upper bar is for what good feels like anymore. Like, I can wake up and feel ready for my day and not like I need to go back to sleep and hit snooze like that.

00;40;16;02 - 00;40;28;05
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
A lot of people have had just that, honestly haven't experienced that vitality. And so that's the other thing that's really fun about that is you're like raising the bar for people, for the potential they feel for themselves health wise.

00;40;28;07 - 00;40;29;29
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah, definitely.

00;40;30;01 - 00;40;47;29
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
So I do want to kind of double click on because you mentioned like in a primary care setting, in a rural setting, one of the challenges is economic. Right. And so when I think when you look at some of the clinics that are out there, it makes it look like attaining optimal health is very expensive. It's a ton of testing.

00;40;47;29 - 00;41;11;12
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Of course, we do testing as well. It's out of pocket costs. It's testing, it's supplements. It's I don't know. So at home sauna. Can you talk a little bit about within your patient population how you manage that. Like when it comes to stress, what are the ways that you evaluate. You talked about some of the things that you might see come up for people like sleep, energy disruption, etc..

00;41;11;14 - 00;41;21;09
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And then at what point do you think about adding testing to determine like what needs to be done? So let's start with that piece of it.

00;41;21;12 - 00;42;01;12
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Okay. Well, I think it definitely depends on the patient and their resources. And what kind of, results they're getting was simple things like the change in diet and good stool was really starting with a regular stool. And it's amazing to me how many people that is the first factor. Right. And drinking water and so, so, so their, sleep for instance, is, is an issue or just feeding, hyper throughout the day or just really uncomfortable fatigued.

00;42;01;14 - 00;42;25;18
Dr. Margaret Beeson
That and we've done the basic things, you know, some food to water. Good stool. You know, helping them maybe get rid of sugar. We can't we can't do all of that stuff without more information some of the times, because a person needs to be convinced it's a factor. So I think that the, the card test, is, is a really useful test.

00;42;25;21 - 00;42;48;13
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I think that sometimes showing a person in black and white what's happening, you know, so the cortisol awakening response can be useful, especially, you know, learning to differentiate between whether it's an acute stress or a chronic stress and showing a person in black and white. Look, this information shows that your, stress has been long term.

00;42;48;20 - 00;43;18;09
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And so let's find some ways to support your body, maybe with some specific nutrients to get you, you know, feeling a little more vital so you can make these changes. So they're having difficulty making changes or stopping eating sugar or. This has been a short term stress. So just by using a couple of these substances, you some, cortisone, adrenal support substances, people do notice a difference.

00;43;18;09 - 00;44;01;20
Dr. Margaret Beeson
We have a lot of different ones that we use. And again, as long as that's not the only thing we do, but in the context of a person, understanding where the impact of this stress is, again, short term, long term, and showing them in black and white that this is what is your, your, your, so salivary testing or urine testing might, the information might give us could allow a person to not only, feel comfortable taking some supplements, but then after a couple of months, we can also repeat a test and show that they really have made a difference, which is more, support for them carrying through with that or

00;44;01;20 - 00;44;17;15
Dr. Margaret Beeson
changing a supplement to something else, because they may they've gotten the most out of the one that they were using to deal with more of the chronic issue. And now we need something that's going to, address sort of carrying on in a more, energetic way.

00;44;17;17 - 00;44;37;14
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
I love that you bring that up because, you know, one, we we resilience is high for a lot of people. Let's start with that. We can carry a lot of balls in the air, keep them up, push through, power through and feel okay. I mean, there's been times in my life that I look back and think, how how do I have all that going on at the same time?

00;44;37;14 - 00;44;55;01
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Or, you know, add one more thing, the whole thing going a collapse? I'm sure you have that too. But a lot of people that we work with, they know I had one patient comes to mind for me who was trying to get pregnant, and she was, like an international lawyer. She traveled all the time across multiple time zones.

00;44;55;01 - 00;45;12;12
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
She worked probably 80 hours a week, you know, and then had all the stressors of work. She didn't have the chance to take care of herself. And when I asked about stress after she described your life to me, she's like, no, I don't really have a lot of stress. And I thought like, that's yeah, yeah, I think you do, you know?

00;45;12;15 - 00;45;31;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
But she didn't recognize it that way. And I think sometimes, you know, my dad says like when you love what you do, you never have to work a day of your life. And I feel that way. I feel blessed because I enjoy putting my time into something. So if I'm working out of home with my family, it doesn't feel bad to me to be doing it.

00;45;31;07 - 00;45;48;03
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
But it certainly is time sensitive, urgent. Busy. Go go go. Lots of cognitive processing, but it doesn't have a bad connotation. So a lot of times people don't. I think self recognize, oh, I need to slow down because it's like you're overflowing with blessings, not with pain. Do you know what I'm saying?

00;45;48;10 - 00;46;23;00
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Like, oh, I do know exactly, exactly. And that is one of the benefits of testing like that, because I do feel that, I've experienced that many times in my life, not just for myself, but with patients. Is that like you said, they don't register that it's stress, but the symptoms that they're, experiencing are definitely clearly stressful from stress, you know, and so to be able to show them in black and white, you know, not just the, cortisol waking test, but just the adrenal profile and looking at how the cortisol is metabolized.

00;46;23;00 - 00;46;44;22
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And, you know, whether you have a low key of cortisol or cortisone, the ratio is between those and the. Yeah. And how that metabolism, I mean, it's very it's very, sophisticated in a lot of ways, but it is a sophisticated test to be able to sit down with a person. Yeah. This looks okay. The old test we used to do, which were the salivary.

00;46;44;22 - 00;47;23;02
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Right. But to be able to break it down into all those different components and it's intriguing to see. Oh yeah, this is really showing that things look okay. But this is how your body's, breaking down and disposing the, the cortisol cortisone easier so that your body's not able to, prevent illness as efficiently or, your, your weight is associated with how your body, the relationship between the cortisol and the cortisone, the all of those things can definitely help motivate a person to make changes.

00;47;23;02 - 00;47;47;17
Dr. Margaret Beeson
You know, it's like it's not just that I been eating too much sugar for a long period of time. It's that the impact of those things have affected how my body is utilizing these substances. And if I can, support my system, then perhaps I can, be more attentive to how I am eating and, and, you know, be able to meet my goals of weight loss a little bit better.

00;47;47;20 - 00;48;07;16
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah. You've explained that so well. And I had this same conversation with Mark Newman, our founder. We were talking about an educational presentation that he's developing, and we were talking about this concept. And one of the things I shared is that when I used to do adrenal salivary testing, I would do like the four point or five point testing saliva only.

00;48;07;16 - 00;48;39;18
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And that's the only thing that was reported that was kind of advanced of its time. But now that I see, I've seen thousands and thousands of tests where you can see that, plus you can see cortisol, cortisol ratios, you can see also the metabolized cortisol come out in the urine. It's made me look back and think that I missed an opportunity for like really understanding the process because sometimes the salivary cortisol curve alone doesn't represent, you know, the right answer when you look at metabolites.

00;48;39;18 - 00;48;47;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
So you look at the car like you mentioned that bands are all together paints a little bit of a different story. We're working hard to try to like, develop better education to help providers.

00;48;47;07 - 00;49;04;28
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I think that's good because it is hard. It's hard to think that because it's hard to get all that. It's a, you know, even for me, I've been know especially I've been practicing a long time. And like I said, I miss those other ones. And when I started looking at those details, it's like, oh, what is exactly does this all mean?

00;49;04;28 - 00;49;16;15
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And how do I explain this to a patient? Because it's pretty is pretty sophisticated. So I really think that that is going to help a lot to have that kind of education and simplifying it. Yeah.

00;49;16;19 - 00;49;38;24
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
So and I love that you bring up the food piece too, because a lot of it, a lot of this with hormones generally, you know, we always think about production of hormones, but the the way the tissues engage with hormones when they enter the cell, the number of receptors, the way the receptors function. It's different when there's for example, a lot of insulin around or a lot of cortisol around, like it's all interconnected in the tissue.

00;49;38;29 - 00;50;00;29
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
The way the tissues use hormones changes depending on the environment. And stress is one of those big things. Cortisol is one of those things that changes how we utilize even our reproductive hormones. You mentioned that at the beginning clinically, that you see that like perimenopause is a tougher transition when women are under stress. Like we need to unpack that more and understand that more so we can share the physiology in a more clear way.

00;50;01;01 - 00;50;25;29
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah, I think that that's definitely going to be really useful. The more information people have an understanding is not the old salivary test. It's really has a lot more components. I think the metabolites that E and the F that really is intriguing to me. So I think that's I can see how that would be really useful in combination with the cortisol and cortisone ratios.

00;50;25;29 - 00;50;35;06
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And then the 24 hour that is I think can be extremely useful as an educational tool for patients. So I really.

00;50;35;09 - 00;50;47;23
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
But we'll keep working on trying to simplify it because we know the adrenal fatigue model is not right, but there's not a clear replacement yet out there for really being able to explain these like really complex concepts like you talk about.

00;50;47;25 - 00;51;19;01
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Right. Well, one of the things that on that note, I want to say, just one other thing about that is when I was looking at the the dead site for some of the articles there, information that you had, I was, I saw this, quote by, doctor Tom Gilliams. Did you write, you know, that was in 2021 and he is a PhD, but it was so naturopathic, you know, he says, rename the phenomena stress induced HPA axis dysfunction.

00;51;19;03 - 00;51;49;15
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Or it mal adaption. It is much more appropriate to describe the typical consequences which link stress with the myriad of measurable negative consequences related to the stress response. And this is the the tor naturopathic part. Since most stress related phenomena start with one of several key hypothalamic triggers such as perceived stress, glycemic glycemic dysregulation, inflammatory signaling, circadian disruption, or feedback inhibition.

00;51;49;19 - 00;52;26;03
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Successful treatment protocols should be designed to treat these root issues rather than support the adrenal directly. So I think that's just such an important concept because it's core. Naturopathic is how we treat. But but looking at the details of it with the, the, testing does allow us perhaps to be able to address that a little bit more, specifically, and also to help the patients get a deeper understanding that will help them make the changes that are going to be useful for their, you know, complaints.

00;52;26;03 - 00;52;44;25
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
So I'm loving this conversation and I'm going to send Duke. Tom Williams has a great book, Maggie, that he wrote about HIPAA access, and your new residents would love it. I will send that over to you, because he's written a lot on this and he's a brilliant scientist. I've had him on the podcast. He can talk circles around like all of us.

00;52;44;25 - 00;52;53;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
He's really so smart. And, just also just a wonderful human being and like, interesting human being. He's a natural at the heart. Absolutely.

00;52;53;07 - 00;53;00;13
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah. That's what I thought when I looked at them like, this is the core of what we do ultimately, you know. Yeah. The nature path. Yeah.

00;53;00;15 - 00;53;26;16
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
So one thing that's so neat about, his approach, like you said, and I love that quote that you read is I think culturally right now there is this so like, high interest in consumers in supplements and adrenal supplements are skyrocketing in use. And I really like that, actually. I mean, I'm super happy that we're seeing, some of these adrenal adaptogens put into drinks and put into food.

00;53;26;16 - 00;53;48;19
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
I think it's really cool because traditionally that's how they're used. Like if you look at, you know, rhodiola, Siberian ginseng, you look at just on regular get ashwagandha. These were like they were called them rosés, right? They were these food medicines that were just part of your culture. You'd have it in a drink before bed every night and it wasn't a pill to treat something in an acute manner.

00;53;48;26 - 00;53;50;06
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah. Like.

00;53;50;09 - 00;54;09;23
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And so I think it's cool that they're coming back in. And at the same time, they're not a substitute. And this is something that you use at the beginning. It's like you need to treat the true root causes, not just the adrenal glands. Production of cortisol by by fixing the things that you mentioned, you know, the stool, the food, etc..

00;54;09;25 - 00;54;29;21
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah, yeah. So I do want to talk about it. Supplements, because I know you're an actor, you have a ton of expertise in that as well. With adrenal adaptogens, can you share some of your favorite things for patients or for that you recommend? Often when it comes, you can talk about brands too. We're not restricted from that. But even if it's just ingredients that you love.

00;54;29;23 - 00;54;33;24
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Well, I still do like the Puerto Morpher gene therapy a little bit, you know?

00;54;33;28 - 00;54;37;04
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Okay, we've not talked about that here. Let's go into that.

00;54;37;06 - 00;55;05;25
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah. So the actual adrenal gland, it's been around forever. I think when we first started practicing before when I first started practicing, before we had any naturopathic supplement companies. Right. I think it was the first, we had certain process and they did a lot of product margin glandular. And we I got some great results with those, you know, so, the adrenal support, vital they have still some adrenal in there.

00;55;06;00 - 00;55;14;12
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And of course, licorice. Licorice can be phenomenal for, to solid extract of it for people who don't want to take a pill and you can just.

00;55;14;12 - 00;55;15;22
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Give them an extract and.

00;55;15;24 - 00;55;19;19
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Oh, it's wonderful. Half size for a quarter teaspoon taste good.

00;55;19;19 - 00;55;26;11
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
I would mix it in hot water or like peppermint tea. That's one of my favorites. Or you can take it off a spoon. It's like a packs a punch.

00;55;26;14 - 00;55;53;09
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Right? Right. Well people a lot of people like cortisol manager. You know, that can be an easy thing to take. I really am. Excuse me, am I have I really like the neuroscience company Doctor Kellerman. I just I just loved the way that they were, the things they put together based on. They were the first people to really do neurotransmitter testing.

00;55;53;11 - 00;56;19;15
Dr. Margaret Beeson
And I learned so much in them. I used to do a lot of that testing with them and, the supplements they put together. So they have some lovely, support for adrenals and for, licorice and, and just even, you know, travel core or I love, what's the other one? Ultra PM because supporting rest and sleep.

00;56;19;15 - 00;56;48;16
Dr. Margaret Beeson
You know, I like the idea of putting together some of the five with some of the herbals, you know, the Valerian love valerian. So not for adrenal, but just for dealing with stress because it's such a safe herb and such an awesome anti-anxiety doesn't always help with sleep. But I also learned from Doctor Bush, when he worked for neurosciences, you know, really want to focus on daytime activity when it comes to insomnia.

00;56;48;16 - 00;57;07;26
Dr. Margaret Beeson
So instead of just giving something to me for sleep. And that would be, again, the use of the adrenal panels is to say that, according to lots of cortisol waking responses, what is happening when you wake up in the morning? I do love showing people that diurnal pattern. You know, and they say, okay, well, here's what's happening.

00;57;07;26 - 00;57;12;09
Dr. Margaret Beeson
When you get up in the morning, you think you feel super tired. Well, here's where your cortisol is. You know.

00;57;12;09 - 00;57;14;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Right now it's time to go to the tired.

00;57;14;07 - 00;57;38;28
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah. It's time to go to sleep at night. You've got, you know, the other. So things that can, get a person, I think that the, cortisol manager does seem to deal with that, balance of the excitatory, nervous system sort of turning on in the morning, you know? Yeah. So those are some some of the ones I love to use.

00;57;39;01 - 00;58;00;11
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Yeah. Thanks for those suggestions, Maggie. I mean, a lot of those products are there's a lot of really great things on the market. And I think the big thing is finding what works for you. You know, I think taking these on a daily basis as a preventive, I mean, that's how they were really used traditionally, which I think is a really compelling option, is like finding a way to include include that.

00;58;00;11 - 00;58;30;22
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
And then most importantly, starting with at the beginning with the things that are leading to, the problem with that add up stress and I mean, just to kind of wrap that up because you talked about the perceived stress, and that's one thing that I want to just touch upon, because different people have different resilience to stress. And so what might be what might trigger a lot of cortisol production for one person might not even be a blip for another person.

00;58;30;22 - 00;58;40;12
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Can you talk about that a little bit about that as well? Because there's, especially with your mental health background, there's a lot that goes into that. But we need to just kind of be cognizant of who we are.

00;58;40;14 - 00;58;46;25
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Yeah, yeah.

00;58;46;27 - 00;58;53;00
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I mean, I guess so, so reframe that a little bit for me so I can.

00;58;53;03 - 00;59;24;07
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Well, I think about, for example, we have a lot of talk. There's a lot of research today on like trauma and trauma history and our Ace scores like that adverse childhood experience scores. There's even data showing that when mom is under stress during pregnancy, the HPA axis function of the child is affected even long term. And interestingly, there was one study, it's an old small study, but they put women on SSRI medications during pregnancy for it might have been anxiety or depression.

00;59;24;10 - 00;59;45;06
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
But certainly for that higher stress. And they found it had no. Even though the mom reported a reduction in symptoms, there was no change in the physiological impact to the child, meaning the disruption still occurred. So I just think about the fact that our baseline tolerance can be different for a wide variety of factors, some of which are not in our control.

00;59;45;08 - 00;59;57;11
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
That we need to be kind of thinking about that as well as we move through the world and think about what we can do better to handle stress. You might not carry the same load as your neighbor or friend, and that's totally okay. You got to work with what you got.

00;59;57;13 - 01;00;21;28
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Oh, well, you know, the individuality of of us, not just in terms of our, experience or history or like you said, even in the womb, Joseph Chilton Pierce does a whole, thing about the limbic system, how it develops differently depending on whether the mother's been in stress. So, you know, through birth, actually, what actually happens in the brain, though?

01;00;21;28 - 01;00;59;16
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I mean, it's fascinating, but, but it's also, yeah, the, the resources that a person has to, to, to manage, the stress in their life. But the, the, what was I going to say about, the that are inherent nervous systems, you know, so there is really that like, oftentimes I will show a personality that you're excitatory or inhibitory nervous system, you know, and depending on, where you are in your stages of life.

01;00;59;16 - 01;01;24;06
Dr. Margaret Beeson
So certainly at menopause you're going to have a lot more tendency towards the excitatory without the, you know, balance necessarily without the progesterone, of, of may balance out the inhibitory. So there's just your, your, ability to manage stress is there's an inherent part of it. And I think people want to compare themselves. I think, you know, we are getting to that in a way of I should this person can do this.

01;01;24;06 - 01;01;46;13
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I should be able to, you know, it's like you don't you don't walk in in a person's shoes. You have no idea. All the components that, would cause a person to be, have less ability to sleep. Well, based on the factors that are coming in as opposed to the other person. Who is that? Always like a baby and always will.

01;01;46;13 - 01;02;23;01
Dr. Margaret Beeson
You know, there's just those factors are just so individualized. And I guess the only way to identify, how that you want to handle that individual basis is to create the relationship. And that's, again, sort of my core as a doctor is that the the intimacy of that relationship, you know, seeing a person, listening to them, talking to them, watching how they respond to the questions or hearing what those stresses might be, listening to the how they all the different aspects of their, their health, you know, and then what is the best way to support them through that?

01;02;23;01 - 01;02;39;20
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I don't have a favorite supplement. It's really going to depend. Sometimes it's no supplements, right? Sometimes it's a homeopathic remedy, some person. So I don't want to take anything or sometimes the person doesn't do anything. You tell them what I do, but they still come back. And then you just say, I don't know what they're getting out of it.

01;02;39;26 - 01;03;06;00
Dr. Margaret Beeson
I'm just going to sit and listen to him offer some solutions and not be attached. Like, I don't believe in noncompliance. I don't believe in I never have, right. And I don't believe in hypochondria either. Perhaps it's out there, but you know, people have different levels of sensitivities. And look it now that we know really clearly about liver detoxification pathways, we know that some people's pathways are less intact and they're less functional than others.

01;03;06;00 - 01;03;28;19
Dr. Margaret Beeson
So those people are going to be much more hypersensitive. That or the other thing. Right. So then in terms of noncompliance is compliance is like if a person comes in and they haven't done what I've recommended, I want to know why and what they will do. Not that they should have done it because I've told them to you know, that's part of the relationship for me, is is like being able to sit with the person and talk about them.

01;03;28;23 - 01;03;44;12
Dr. Margaret Beeson
So yeah, we talked about this last time. Oh, I forgot about doing that or I couldn't do it or I tried it. It didn't work. That's what helps inform you about what is the next step that allows a person to get their needs met and be successful in trying to assume their health. You know?

01;03;44;12 - 01;04;03;02
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Well, that's true partnership for sure. Finding a solution that works, you know. Yeah. Well, what a beautiful way to wrap. I really appreciate your time. Shout out to be on the pod. Like I said, you're someone I look up to so much. It's been really beautiful to have this time with you. So thank you so much for you for joining me today.

01;04;03;05 - 01;04;10;06
Dr. Margaret Beeson
Thank you very much. I really appreciate the opportunity. So have a great holiday. And to everybody.

01;04;10;09 - 01;04;13;14
Dr. Jaclyn Smeaton
Thank you.

01;04;13;17 - 01;04;32;17
DUTCH
Thanks for joining us on the DUTCH Podcast. Join us every Tuesday for new conversations with leading functional health experts. If you like what you've heard, be sure to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.