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Sport for Business
Sport for Business
From Leinster to the World - Stephen Smith and Kitman
Let us know what’s on your mind
We trace Stephen Smith’s journey from analyst at Leinster Rugby to founding Kitman Labs and building league-wide systems that put evidence at the heart of athlete welfare and performance.
Along the way, we talk friction with tradition, mentorship, scaling globally, and why leagues now see themselves as talent businesses.
• moving from gut feel to objective decision-making in elite sport
• the early friction between medical staff, coaches, and data
• catalysts that proved the model beyond Leinster
• mentors, hiring like a coach, and scaling a team
• relocating to Silicon Valley and learning fast
• first believers: Everton, IRFU, and building a product with customers
• league-wide platforms for medicine, operations, and development
• why competitive balance and talent pathways drive league economics
• culture, home, and perspective between Ireland and California
• quickfire: sport memories, books, music, and a dream dinner table
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Hello and welcome to the Support for Business Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Hartner, and in today's episode we are diving into the world of sport technology. I'm delighted to be joined by Stephen Smith, who left the comfortable environment of Lens to Rugby to spark off on his own and he set up Kitman Labs. He was back in Dublin for the NFL game this past weekend, and we caught up with each other over coffee and conversation, and I think you'll enjoy listening to somebody who has really made a mark within sport. The conversation ranges everything from sports technology, which is obvious, to the challenges of setting out and setting up on your own, the importance of having your partner fully on side with that, and what it's like living in California and working within sport at the very, very highest level. So, Stephen, um welcome back to Dublin. It's a very special weekend that you're back here for, but your journey in sport started here a few years ago now as well. Bring me back there to the days when you were an analyst at Leinster rugby and perhaps woke up one night with an idea in your mind about what Kitman could be.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean you're very kind in saying that it was a couple of years ago. A little bit older, a little bit grayer, and uh yeah, I think at this point in time it's 20 years ago. Um so it's yeah, it's pretty incredible to think of the you know the whole the whole life cycle, the journey. It probably wasn't just one night, right? I think it was it was every day. It was born out of frustration, right? It was coming in trying to do your job every day, trying to answer questions that are being placed in front of us by coaching staff and by players themselves who are wanting to understand what what's the best decision to make to be able to manage this player, what's the best decision to make to be able to treat this player, what's the best decision to make in terms of how this player should recover, how we should organize our week, how you know what we should do in the gym, what we should do on the training field, how that impacts what's happening in the game. It was very much born out of um, I think a thirst for understanding, a thirst for intelligence, and I think a belief that the vast majority of decisions when we get to that level of sport should not be based off good instinct, it should be based off fact and objectivity, right? And we should be able to instrument our decision making to the point that we have an unwavering level of confidence in what we're doing and that we can back that up and quantify that. And if I'm talking with you as a player and I'm telling you this is why I'm making a decision, but I can I can support that with information like we would in any other industry and say this is this is the reason why I'm doing this, and this is the facts and the proof that I have that will validate that. And we wanted to create an environment that was built on trust with our players and with our coaches, and we wanted to build an environment that was going to be successful, and that we want to build that success based on like you know, fact. Um and yeah, I know it was just it was such an incredible journey. I loved every day that I got to work at Lencer Ruby before I started this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Time is a great sort of you know, balm over a lot of these things. What you're describing there looks self-evident now that of course everybody would want to buy into that. But at the time, what was the reaction of the medical team to this? Because, you know, the medics are there, they've they have this secret magic whereby they can put their hands on your knee and they can tell you exactly where it is at in the in the recovery process. What was their reaction first when you came along with this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um I suppose the one of the things that helped me in that scenario is my my own background is in sports medicine as well. So my undergraduate is in that area, so it kind of gave me a little bit of credibility, at least for some of the conversations I was trying to have. But there were difficulties. There was a lot of friction. And what we were trying to do is take our training information, take our recovery information, take our fitness information, take our performance information, and relate it back to medical information to understand why certain things were happening, or why certain treatment techniques would work, or why certain recovery interventions were were not working. And I think there was you know there was quite a lot of uh skepticism that that would work is probably the right word to use. And it created a lot of friction. So there was a lot of really challenging conversations, there were a lot of um difficult and very tense moments through that period. Um but you know, like anything, anything that's uh that's worth it is generally hard, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like to paraphrase Taylor Swift, which I don't often do, but you know, players want to play. So was there part of that friction? Was there always that you know player A will hear from you that they're going to need to just completely ease off and that their recovery is going to take six weeks? Medical team is saying, Oh no, you need to keep going at something, and we can get you back on the field in four weeks. They're gonna listen to them as opposed to you. And then the following day, that will be flipped and that will be reversed.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think um it was probably always flipped because uh they used to call me at Linsa the pusher. Um so uh yeah, no, I I listen, I think I think uh you're right though. It was it was always different, it was just opposing views and opposing opinions all the time, right? And uh sometimes um sometimes the information that we were looking at would support certain people's narratives or beliefs, and sometimes it would question or challenge that. And that's where the friction always existed was at those points where you were, you know, you there was a level of conflict between what we believed the information was telling us and what somebody believed they should be doing or a traditional decision-making approach. And I think our like the the way I've almost thought about it is that none of these things were my ideas, right? They were we were asking questions of the data, the data was giving us answers. So it was never about that's my narrative, it was about this is what the data is telling us. And I think what I was also trying to do at that point in time was allow everybody else that freedom and space to step away from that and say, none of this is really about their not their ideas either, right? Um if the information is telling us this and we follow that breadthum trail and we just keep we keep doing that, and if that works, then we know that we're heading down the right path, and if it doesn't work, then you know we've that's another data point.
SPEAKER_00:We just keep on asking the questions and the data keeps on giving us another answer, and it's an iterative process. Exactly. What was the point then at which you thought bigger than Leinster that this had scope for going to other teams, other sports, other countries? That was the first step along the journey to where you are today?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there was probably a few moments again in that. It wasn't just one, it was when I first went to Leinster rugby and asked them for some money to start like investing into this to like carry it further than I was able to by myself. And they said no, that was probably that was one moment for me that was like, well, I feel really passionate about this, I love it, I want us to be better at it. And I was like, well, if they're not gonna pay for it, how else are we gonna make this happen? The only way to do it is to allow others that might might you know get behind that idea to do it. That was one, and then as we were achieving quite a lot of success at Leinster, we were getting exposure to other teams that were coming over and they were seeing what we were doing, and it was it was very appealing and exciting to them. And some of these were teams that we assumed would have been light years ahead of where we were at, and they were not, and that was that was a little bit a light bulb moment as well, because we realized, geez, we're like we're doing something that other people are not doing, we're ahead of the curve in some areas here. And then I also you know was starting to get exposure to conferences, and I've been invited to speak at a couple of conferences, and I remember at one stage going to New York to speak at a conference there, and it was a it was a there was a panel discussion, and then there was a round table. The round table had probably maybe eight people from different professional sports in the US. When we talked about what we were we were doing at Leinster, they were blown away by how sophisticated we had got. And I assume the NFL, the NBA, Major League Baseball organizations like this, with the resources they had versus what we had at Leinster would have been doing very interesting things or very different things than us, and they weren't at that point in time. And I think that was also it was kind of all of those pieces happening at the same time that I was like, Jesus, there's a real opportunity here for something, you know, for us to take this and to do something really cool with it.
SPEAKER_00:So it's always those kind of sidebar conversations at an event. Always, always say yes, always turn up to things. That's the that's the key to it. Now tell me, I may be wrong, and Ray Morin would probably disprove it on his own, but the idea of coming out of the background of sports medicine does not necessarily prove to be a fertile breeding ground for entrepreneurship and for the business side of this as well. How much was uh how much of that was a reach for you and did you enjoy that journey, that process?
SPEAKER_01:All of it was a reach. I hadn't like no exposure to any of that. I mean, not just not just the business or the economic side of it, but uh challenges on the technology technology side of it as well, right? So I came with the I came with a domain expertise background, didn't understand product, didn't understand engineering, didn't understand, you know, business to a certain extent, or entrepreneurship, or finance, or accounting, or marketing, or sales, or all of those other you know, tools that might might seem like they're probably uh job kind of, yeah. Um so uh you know, that every day was a school day, and every day still certainly is a school day, but um I've loved the journey, and I think being able to you know broaden my horizon and my skill set and to lean into experts, and I think the mentorship that I've got from two of my biggest investors in John Malloy and Pete Kite has just been like life-changing for me. And I mean that on a on a on a very like um a much broader level than just Kitman Labs. Yeah. Like what I have learned and this the skills and life lessons that I've learned through the mentorship of those two business people has just been like fascinating for me. And I I remember very early on meeting both of them, they both kind of approached me with the same type of mindset, which was we're not investing in you because we believe you're the best business person. We're investing in your vision, we're investing in your belief, we're investing in your expertise. And that was very comforting to know that great, I don't have to fake it in these areas that I'm not good at, that I don't know, that I don't have experience. And what they said to me was think of this like a sports environment, right? That's what you know, that's what you come from. You don't ask the out half to play a prop or hooker or or you know, fullback, etc. You ask them to be great at what they're great at, and you surround them with excellent excellence in all of those other positions as well. And that was like, for me, that was a bit of a like a light bulb moment as well to say, okay, great. I don't like I don't have to suggest that I'm great in these areas, but I do have to be good at like finding the right people and to be able to evaluate that and to be able to work with them and and also to give responsibility of different areas within the business to those people. Because like I if I'm if I'm hiring somebody to manage our marketing department or to manage our engineering department, I'm doing that because I believe that they're better at that than me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So let them do their job there, right? Like let the let the let them let them play, let them like, you know, certainly we need to communicate just like you would on the field, and we need to understand each other, and we need to all be in lockstep of about our game strategy and what we're trying to achieve. But let that let them be excellent at what they're excellent at. And that's something that I still like, you know, I still revert back to every single day. Yeah. Um, and uh Kevin McLaughlin, who works with me now as well, who I've worked with now for probably 20 for 20 years. Um one of the conversations we always have when we're either hiring somebody or where we're making decisions about structural changes in the company is do we want that person in the changing room beside us? Okay. And it's a like it's a very simple conversation, right? You know, when you're sitting in the in the changing room in a in a rugby rugby team, do I want that person pulling the jersey on? Do I believe they're going to do what needs to be done when we walk out of the field and we go into battle? And it's the same thing in the business environment. Do I want that person like, do I want that person in my team, are they the best person to put that jersey on today and to walk out and do what we need to do? And if they're not, then just like is in sport, it's time to like, it's time to fight the find the right person. And if they are, then like let's let's go and do it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I love that, I love that in the midst of of technology and the way that the world is advancing, that that very basic level of humanity, of personal connection is still such an important part of it. What age were you when you decided that Dublin, having proven to be a great proving ground for the technology, was probably a little bit too small, that you were going to have to go out into the into the big world. Because I remember we we spoke at a at a conference that I'd organised as part of the Young Scientist exhibition, and Kitman Labs were one of three companies that were up for a little award that we were giving away, and you won, um, probably in something of a hat cancer. I can't remember who the other two were, but uh, but it's always a sense, and we had we had Paul McGinley on stage that day, we had Jim Gavin on stage that day, but it still sticks in my mind that it was Kitman Labs that were there. So still based in Dublin at that stage, but when did when did the move come?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was 29 at that point in time. Um and yeah, we I we were just taking our very first round of institutional investment through Blue Run Ventures in who were based in Silicon Valley. And I mean, to go back to your last question, right? I think one of the things that was apparently like was or was very very apparent to me was I had no idea what I was doing.
SPEAKER_00:Um You could never admit that at the time, but it's nice looking back and thinking, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh no, I probably did admit it at the time, right? I'm I'm relatively straight. I what I said, what I said to them was I know exactly what I want to do. I don't know necessarily how to do it. And um the conversations I had with with John Malloy and his business partner Jonathan Ebbinger were exceptional, and and they they again they they said to me, Great, like we like that's something that's why we're here, right? That's what we're good at.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We've done this lots of times with other businesses, and they invited me to come over to Silicon Valley and the San Francisco Bay Area and to meet some of the other portfolio companies that they invested. So myself and my wife jumped on a plane, went over and spent uh two weeks over there, and we hung out for a week in Silicon Valley and a week in San Francisco, and every night we were down there, they were meet introducing us to different people, hosting different, you know, different dinners, etc. And I learned more in that week about business. Like my head was on fire, the brain was spinning off the back of it. And I think that that for us, we were kind of thinking, do we stay in Dublin and grow up the city of Dublin? Do we go to Silicon Valley and do it there, or do we go up to San Francisco and base ourselves in the city, etc.? And um after spending a couple of days in their company, I was like, we're like we're fools if we don't, if we don't think that their input, their expertise, their mentorship is valuable to us. And um, you know, like as everybody knows at that point in time, the vast majority of startups fail fail and spin out very fast. Yeah. You know, we if we're gonna do it, might as well give it a good crack. And uh so I went and kind of based ourselves beside them, and um, I suppose the re the rest is history, and it's just been uh it's been such an incredible kind of growth curve, learning journey. Um, and also like I don't know, they're like the relationships I've built with them through that period as well. Like they're you know, they're not just business colleagues and mentors, but they're like very close friends today, and that's you know, that that's I I I actually think the same thing when I look back on my journey at Leinster, the success that was born there was born through like teamwork, and I'm still exceptionally close friends with you know the staff and a lot of the players through that through that like that time at that uh with that team, and then that's this this journey has been the same.
SPEAKER_00:Very much so. I love the fact that your wife went out there with you because that's an always an important part, is that your most your most important person has got to understand the road that you're actually traveling on, because otherwise that could have been a much more difficult conversation to come back because she might not have felt the buzz that you were feeling in San Francisco, and the idea of moving halfway around the world is you know, it's tough.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Oh well, you know what's funny because um the conversations we had afterwards then with with the our investors over there were that uh when they got to meet her, it was one of those kind of very validating moments as well. Because you generally judge people by like who you know who they spend their time with, right? Who they choose to spend their life with. And I think they their com their comments, I I didn't know about this for multiple years afterwards, but after they met my wife and got spent some time with her, they were like perfect, like we're doing the right thing here. We're we're like we're we're with the right people, we're doing the right thing, and yeah, she has been like I none of this journey um would have been possible to the way that it was or is today without the support that she provides. Because um these certainly, you know, we'll I'll we'll do the podcast and everything sounds like this is Rosie in the garden, right? Very easy. Business uh is very challenging all of the time, right? No matter how good things are, there's always problems that you're solving, there's always challenges that you're facing, there's always like issues that you're dealing with. So having the right person to be able to like, when you come home, either talk about those things and figure them out or not talk about them and focus on something else. Um, you know, having a person that has that the emotional intelligence to help hold your hand and guide you through on that journey is very important as well. And and my role involves a huge amount of travel. I probably travel at least a third of my time, and I'm here in Dublin now, away from my wife and three kids, um, we'll be gone for the entire weekend. And for some people like that I, you know, friends with, they're like, We we couldn't do that, that wouldn't work with our relationship where that would be too much stress on one person. She's she's a warrior, yeah. She just she powers through, she gets it, she understands what this journey is about and how important it is. And yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's great. I love that. When I when I set out sport for business, and it was again, I left the the somewhat more comfortable environment of working with Dermot Esmond in uh in in IFSC house in Dublin. And we had we had just had our third kid, and the fourth one was was only a a year down the line, and I said, No, we're we're going to leave that and I'm gonna try this. And you're absolutely right that you need somebody there that can that can say yes and smile. And she might then turn away and scream at the window and think, What on earth is he doing? What on earth are we doing? But uh but having that support and sometimes it's grounding, sometimes it's validating, sometimes it it works, but but whatever way it works, it is really important. Um let's get back onto the business side of it. The first uh the first sort of major team or the first collection of teams that came on board that believed what you were doing and more importantly that were willing to pay for what you were doing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um I mean I think Everton were probably the very first. Uh Everton and the IRFU um were probably thereabouts, but Everton, I I believe paid for the product before it was a product. Okay. And that was that was pretty exceptional. So they they paid for, hey, we want we want this, and we were telling them this is what we're building, it's going to take a while. And they were suggesting, well, if we're paying for it, will it help get it there faster? And they had seen what we had built internally at Lincer and wanted to replicate it. So that was great. There was a guy called Steve Tastion who was at Everton at that point in time. He's since moved on from there. He's worked with the US men's national team, he's worked with Columbus Crew in the US. Super guy is still keeping contact with them today, and just the belief that he had in us were were was amazing. And then yeah, we started to like the the RFU were were always always really, you know, um, I suppose supportive of the journey that we were going on as well. And at that point in time, that was obviously, you know, that that was really really important, right? Uh so yeah, that it was just uh I suppose it was it was a lot of fun getting to play around with those, but also a lot uh a lot of stress because the expectations are you know are still high, right? And then the but the baseline is zero.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And uh there will have been many highlights along the way, but give me a sense as to where you are now with the business and the kind of the breadth and the scope of the of the teams that you're working with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I mean we work with like the number of teams is in thousands at this point in time, like high t high thousands. Um so the scope is huge. I think where we've got to and and where we make big inroads is signed, like we probably work with 15 different leagues globally on a league-wide level. So we go in and we implement our technology across the entirety of the league. So, you know, uh across leagues like the National Football League, who this weekend obviously very relevant here in Dublin. Um, leagues like the Premier League, Major League Soccer, and and when we go into those, it's not just working, let's say, in the Premier League, working across the top 20 teams in the Premier League. It's actually an initiative where our technology is being used across every academy system in the UK. So we're talking like a hundred different academy systems, so both across the Premier League itself and across the EFL system. Um, or you know, within Major League Soccer, it's not just at Major League Soccer itself. The the 27 professional franchises, it's through Next Pro, their semi-pro uh division, it's across MLS Next, which is their youth system, and then MLS Next2. So we're talking like just there's actually thousands of clubs just within that network alone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um and hundreds of thousands of players that you're making a material difference to their well-being.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I think maybe even like within at the bottom of the pyramid, within the MLS Next scenario, there's like 30 to 40,000 players just within their very like their their smallest competition or their lowest, the lowest down competition. So the the number of athletes being kind of managed through that system is is phenomenal. Um and that like I that's that's the stuff that actually gets me excited. It's like look like think of an idea that, as you meant you mentioned, right, with was kind of scratching an itcher at Leinster so long ago that was touching at that point in time 40 players to then bring that to the to the point that now we're serving hundreds of thousands of athletes through the system. It's like really like very cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I've kind of got a picture in my mind now, it's like out of a US sitcom series or something where there's gonna be there's going to be trumpets and flags flying when the millionth player to actually go through the Getbad Labs is coming along. But uh no, let's let's let's not go on that flight of fancy. Um one of the nice things about it is that a lot of the a lot of the organizations, leagues, teams, that when they're dealing with new technology, they're looking for a marginal gain against their opponents. And so there is a sense that we need to put our arms around this and not let anybody see what's happening. You're in a different world altogether because you're you're assisting their players, but it's in a very kind of physical, human sort of a way. So the fact that you might be also helping their main rivals players is actually like from a humanity point of view, it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but I think also the mindset in sport to some extent over the last 10-15 years has changed. And it's changed because specifically leagues have realized that they're in they're not in the like rights holder business that they thought they were in 10, 15 years ago. They're actually in the talent business. Their entire business model is fueled by talent, and and because what are people paying for, right? People are paying for competitiveness, they're paying for an excitement, and that only comes if every game is great. And we've seen, like, we've seen the Premier League excel, we've seen the NFL excel, we've seen Major League Soccer excel, you know, the NBA, because all of their games, the level of competition is so close. Anyone can win and lose. And then we've seen the opposite in like, unfortunately, leagues like La Liga and Syrial or the Bundesliga over the last 50, 15, 20 years, where the Bundesliga has had two champions in the last 16 years, and one of those champions won 15 times.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So like that's not that exciting for fans, right? Not every not every fan shows up to a game thinking they can actually win. Um and that makes it boring. And then we don't we're not selling as many tickets, like tickets, we're not selling as many jerseys, broadcasters don't care, sponsors don't care. The only one they care about is sponsoring Bayern Munich in that in that scenario, and everybody else just falls apart and it erodes the entire business model. So I think what's really helped us is that understanding that actually investing in a basic set of standards of what are the things that we need to do to identify the best talent, what are the things that we need to do to support talent development, what are the things that we need to do to support player health, what are the things we need to do to support like optimization of performance. And we've been brought in then to help initiate those pieces, to govern those, to regulate those. Teams will still try to cultivate around the edges for competitive advantage, and and they should. But we all we all understand that if like if every team gets better in a league, regardless of whether we have to go and fight on the field and try and beat each other, that if everyone's getting better, we're all winning. And everybody is is benefiting from like the improved economics because of that. And players want that, coaches want that, you know, owners want that. Like that, that's that's what makes it great. And there's been a real shift from leagues in realizing that we need to be investing in solutions that help lift the entire ecosystem up, not just like organize our our our you know our competition. So 10 years ago, they would have just bought a competition management system, they would buy a registration system to register their players, and buy an eligibility system to like document all the discipline of players, etc.
SPEAKER_00:Silo, silo, silo.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and now they're thinking about actually we need a system that can organize and operate our league, but also can monitor and manage our well at the welfare of our athletes, can help us to develop the best talent, can protect the assets because that's what they are. They're assets, yeah, can protect them for us and make sure that the entire league is governed from a health, a performance, a development, and from an operational standpoint, all through like a single lens. And that that's yeah, that that's been core to our business model, and that's what's really helped us to kind of grow and I suppose capture, you know, capture the flag to the extent that we have so far.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You've obviously built something which works to an incredibly high standard and which has been adopted and which is out there. So you've got you've got your a brilliant rock solid business now, which is diversified across so many different leagues and teams that you're not at risk of one single client saying, Oh no, somebody else shinier product and that that we can move towards. But American business, and that's where you are now, is fairly brutal in terms of the only quarter that matters is the last quarter. And without kind of uh freaking you out at the at the point of greater success, what is the way in which Kitman will develop now over the over the next coming years?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we've we've so specifically over the last kind of three, four years, we've made enormous investments in three core league-wide areas. So our performance medicine solution to help improve standards, regulate standards from a medical perspective, and help develop insights that improve decision making around player health and safety. We've invested in our league operation solutions that allow us to start cultivating, like well, organizing a competition, but cultivating the beginnings of the player pathway and the information that's relevant from a competitive standpoint from there. And then our coaching and development solutions, which are an entire talent development suite that sit in between both of those pieces to allow a league not just to organize their competition but to build great talent and to produce competitiveness. For us right now, it's really about like adding more and more leagues to those suites of solutions, it's bringing those to bear, it's helping leagues and federations, you know, get get get better and to move away from that old kind of traditional approach where you just have those, you know, those fragmented kind of solutions. So for us, it's about measuring the penetration of those solutions across different leagues and about showing the impact that that's having. And um, yeah, there's there the good news is there is no end of work to be done there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which is great. Yeah, yeah. And from a personal perspective, when you come back to Ireland, do you are there are there things that you miss that you kind of think, oh well, maybe in maybe in two or three years' time, or maybe in five years' time, or the kids are probably in school in in California now anyway, so that's gonna be that's gonna be a tricky one.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um listen, there's always things you miss, right? There's family and friends that I miss, and we're very lucky we we get back quite often and we get spend some time with them. And uh there's cultural things that you miss too. Ireland, Ireland's a very special place, and the history that we have here, and um, you know, spending some spending some time with some NFL staff members today, taking them around and explaining the culture and history of Ireland and why we are who we are. And I think, you know, when I spent a bit of time like thinking about where do I want to bring them or what do I want to show them. It reminds you of just who we are and why we're so special. So there's there's lots about that that I certainly miss.
SPEAKER_00:They're probably wondering, God, why has Steven got tears in his eyes now? Why is he wetting up?
SPEAKER_01:Which is great. Yeah, well, I think it'd be very interesting for them to understand when they're at the game tomorrow or Saturday to or Sunday to be able to understand why it is called a Hogan stand? What was like why what was the importance of Michael Hogan and why, like, you know, I think for them to understand that, I think it will give them a different lens to look at the game through and to be able to think, holy shit, this is like this is a piece of real history. We're right in the middle of of a of like somewhere that helped form the foundations of who this, like, who these people are and what this country is about. That's that's unique. Not most boarding theaters are not are not that historic and are not are that not that central to the culture of an entire country. Yeah so um I think there is lots special about Ireland that certainly that we miss, but also I think being in America, living in America, learning in America, um success is cherished there differently and celebrated differently there and championed differently, and um it's a it's a culturally very exciting place to live. And you know, I know there's lots lots going on and has gone on over the last 10 years in global politics that you know people feel differently about places all the time. But um, I have loved my time in California, it's been immense for me as a human and immense for me as a business person, and uh yeah, we're loving it right now. But I you know, the the agreement my wife and I have always had is that we live every day as it comes, and we see, you know, if there's someday we both wake up and say, geez, we should be back in we should be back in Dublin now, then we'll we'll do that. But for now, uh California's been great.
SPEAKER_00:We were in London for 15 years together, and it was always going to be that we were coming back to Dublin, but it was always going to be in the next couple of years until the moment arrives when it's not, and then you're here, and uh and and it is, it's a it's a very special place to live. But also, California, a very special place to build a business like you have done. Um, it's been fabulous talking to you and congratulations on everything that you've achieved. Um, I'm glad that I had the foresight to uh to give you that little piece of plastic back in the uh back in the day. Um yeah, if only I could judge everything in life to quite the same level. Um, before I let you go, um we'd I'd just like to finish out the podcast interviews with a couple of quickfire uh questions to try and get to know um Stephen Smith as a point.
SPEAKER_01:Before we do this, I'll have to warn you, I'm very bad at quickfire questions, though.
SPEAKER_00:That's okay, that's okay. You're used to questions, realising what the data sort of says and things like that. So um well, look, we'll we'll we'll kick it off with a nice easy one. Um, what was your first childhood memory that you can think of of sport? What was the first sporting moment that grabbed you?
SPEAKER_01:Uh playing Gaelic football. I have a memory of playing Gaelic football my dad shouting at me on the side of the field, telling me what to do because I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing.
SPEAKER_00:That's probably um which club were you with?
SPEAKER_01:I was playing for a club called uh Church Church Town. They're a very small club outside uh Atai in Kildare. And um I remember playing, we used to play on a field that was uh they would they would graze sheep on the field during the day and then they would clear them off for the football game. So you can imagine what the field was like, and if he fell, what what was happening? So but it was uh yeah, I remember very viscerally being being there and my dad cheering me on, helped me understand what I needed to do, and I uh I suppose fell in love with sport at that point. I just loved the concept, loved the idea, love being outside, and uh yeah, it's it's been good to me so far.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um a tricky one given that you work with most of the the leading sports organizations around the world. But if there was one event over the course of the next year that I could get you a golden ticket for, what would that be?
SPEAKER_01:That is a very good question. Um I I would I would have traditionally set a Super Bowl to you, but I've been to Super Bowls now and they're they're exceptional. So um there isn't a World Cup over the next year, but a World Cup final, but as long as a rugby world cup final with Ireland playing, if you could organise that for me, that would be uh that the golden ticket for that would be wonderful.
SPEAKER_00:Many things are within my gift, maybe not that one, but let me let me come back to you on it. Um outside of the realm of sport, uh, would you be a Netflix or a night out at the movies?
SPEAKER_01:Probably a night out. Okay. Probably a night out.
SPEAKER_00:Can you remember what was the last cinema trip that you had?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was probably only a few weeks ago, but it was a kids' movie with my kids. Okay, yeah, we'll we've all been we've all been there. I don't actually remember what exactly what it was, but I know I went, I know I went to the movies about three weeks ago. They loved it. Yeah, they loved it. They had a great time, they really enjoyed it. I have no idea. I can't remember what it was.
SPEAKER_00:Uh when you're flying backwards uh and forwards from from San Fran to uh to Dublin, what do you what do you listen to? Music, podcasts, audiobooks?
SPEAKER_01:Uh audiobooks, or I don't listen to anything and I'm just like on my laptop trying to get through things or writing notes, etc. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. What was the last book that you really enjoyed?
SPEAKER_01:Um probably two books that I like go back to all the time are um Invent and Wander. It's a book about Jeff Bezos's um kind of journey through through business, and then Chop Wood, Carry Water, which is just a discipline book that I just love the concept of like nobody likes doing the hard things, nobody wants to do the hard things, nobody wants the monotony of things, but um sometimes you just have to chop wood and carry water. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I like I like the sound of that. Um tea or coffee?
SPEAKER_01:Coffee, coffee all day, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, all day and all night, possibly to try and keep you going through that that that sort of wild roller coaster of uh of things that you're going for. Um what was the last uh what was the last song that you can remember on your playlist?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I listen on the way over here today. I actually listened to a song called Shotgun Religion by a guy called Andrew Duhan, who's from uh Louisiana, New Orleans singer, who I went to see in concert last week, and I just can't get the song out of my head. So I'm listening to it in a way here, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Alright. When you when you're bringing your NFL colleagues on tour, Damian Dempsey is playing at the National Concert Hall tonight. Um his Christmas gigs are the stuff of legends. They're they're reason enough to come back and live in in Dublin in the first place. But they're again in a couple of years' time. Uh last thing, because I know you're very busy and I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today, and I'm sure that the listeners do as well. But if I was to if I was to get you a a uh a table, um there's a fabulous restaurant in Dublin now run by Porrygo Kane who does the Ellingus College Football Classic. Soul is the restaurant, fabulous fish restaurant. But if I could get you a nice little table in the corner and I gave you cop blunch to invite three people, we won't bring your wife and kids, I'll take that as a as a given. So somebody not related to, they can be dead or alive, sporting, non-sporting, your choice, three people to share and break bread with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, simple one. I'd probably say somebody like Barack Obama. Okay. Um, because I I just find I think I'm not the most uh political human in the entire world. I wouldn't consider myself a Republican or a Democrat, given that I've lived in the US so long now, but um, I think he's somebody who brought people together. And I think he not not just on a domestic stage but on an international stage, and living here for a period of his presidency and seeing how how he the embrace he brought and how he brought American relations closer to all the European partners like that was phenomenal. I hadn't seen that before. So somebody like him, for sure, um maybe like thinking about Irish history, because I've been thinking about that this week. Um, I probably go back to you know one of one of the leading members of the 1916 Rising and would have loved to understand what that whole journey was like because the bravery shown by the group uh in 1916 here is just something that I don't think any of us in modern Ireland can fathom.
SPEAKER_00:To verbalize the blood sacrifice idea from the mouth of those who lived it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, just to hear like how, like, I mean, the belief that they had in what they wanted for the country and the people of the country, and to understand what that was like and to know what they were walking into. Like, none of those people thought, like, you know, I think they knew exactly what the end point was pro was likely going to be. Um, but to still have the courage to go and do that, like, I think that would be uh exceptional, exceptional people to like to learn and listen to and to understand and hear their passion. And then from a business perspective, again, just because I'm fascinated by that book, somebody like Jeff Bezos, who took a very, very small idea, and you know, grew that to something to the behemoth that it is today. And whether people like him or don't like him, or you know, whatever, the business acumen that he showed, the way that he built that business, just think is like, you know, there's few people in the world that will have or will ever do something like that again.
SPEAKER_00:What a great table. If I if I if I couldn't manage to squeeze an extra table in, I'd I'd want to be the waiter that's actually serving you um at the table. I I um I'm I'm actually going to see Barack Obama in in Dublin. He's over uh tonight. And I was at John King, the CNN anchor during the week, was in Dublin as well. This is this is pure America week in uh in Dublin, Ireland. And uh and he made that point that he said that you really want to talk to the people whose views you don't share, because those are the people that you learn from, and that's where humankind progresses. It's the sort of the clash of opinions, and with the ability then to maybe go back to that GAA pitch in Church Town and shake hands with the fellow who you've been beaten seven shades out of for the last couple of weeks. But but that's the magic of sport, and the magic of what you do is that when they do get beaten up, that they know when they can get fixed and get back out on the field of play. Um, thanks very much for for what you've done, for for Irish sports technology, for uh for sporting players and uh and for being here with us today. Stephen Smith, it's been a real pleasure.
SPEAKER_01:It was a pleasure, yeah. Thank you so much.
unknown:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:I hope you enjoyed that. Great chatting to Stephen, and that is an example of somebody who has come out of the Irish sporting uh landscape and is now competing at the very highest level on the global stage. So well done to him and to Kitman Labs. If you enjoyed the conversation, if you want to know more about what we do at Sport for Business, you can do so at sportforbusiness.com. We have uh weekly podcasts, we have twice daily news bulletins covering everything from advocacy to performance, from participation to technology, and we've got regular events, the ones coming up in the next couple of weeks. We have on support for social good, we have a major event on sustainability and sport, and one in the first week in December on Women and Sport, the 12th annual sport for business conference in that subject. And then in January we will be back again with the supporting year ahead for 2026. It's never too early to get the calendar fired up all ready for the new year. Thank you very much for taking the time to listen to us today, and uh the very best of luck with whatever support you're going to be involved in next over the coming weeks and months.
