Dear Menopause
Are you experiencing changes to your physical, mental and emotional health you find hard to explain?
Have you tried talking to your doctor/partner/employer/best friend and been left feeling unsupported?
In this weekly show, host Sonya Lovell interviews a range of experts and shares the stories of everyday people to help you understand what the hell is going on, why and where you can find support, empowerment and most importantly, a like-minded community.
Dear Menopause
121: Breakups in Midlife: When Menopause Reshapes Your Relationship
What happens to marriages and long-term relationships during menopause?
Clinical psychologist Kirstin Bouse returns to the podcast to tackle this powerful question, revealing why 70% of midlife breakups are initiated by women.
The menopause transition triggers not just hormonal changes but profound psychological shifts. Neuroplasticity during this period reshapes women's brains, often leading to significant evolutions in identity, values, and what they're willing to tolerate. As Kirstin explains, "I hear from a lot of women: I just want to live from me, not from my role as mum or wife. I want to experience joy that's just about me."
We explore how these changes impact relationships from multiple angles. For partnerships with potential, we discuss how honest conversations can determine whether couples can evolve together or if paths must diverge.
Importantly we discuss that when a woman is living in an unhealthy or controlling relationship, perimenopause may increase vulnerability making it even more important that her safety and wellbeing are the top priority.
The conversation doesn't shy away from the challenges of rebuilding life as a single person in midlife, with Kirstin offering practical guidance on finding joy, creating a new identity, and building resilience. Throughout it all, one theme remains constant: the importance of support during this transformative period.
Whether you're questioning your own relationship, supporting a friend through changes, or simply wanting to understand this common midlife phenomenon, this episode offers insight, compassion, and a roadmap for navigating relationships through the turbulence of menopause.
Subscribe to Dear Menopause for more expert conversations that help you navigate this significant life transition with knowledge and confidence.
If you or someone you know is experiencing an unsafe or abusive relationship, please seek support - help is available, and you are not alone. Support services within Australia are listed below.
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Welcome to the Dear Menopause podcast. I'm Sonia Lovell, your host Now. I've been bringing you conversations with amazing menopause experts for over two years now. If you have missed any of those conversations, now's the time to go back and listen, and you can always share them with anyone you think needs to hear them. This way, more people can find these amazing conversations, needs to hear them. This way, more people can find these amazing conversations. Welcome to this week's episode of Dear Menopause. Today, I am super excited to be joined by a return guest, Kirstin Bouse.
Kirstin:Kirstin, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It's amazing to be back and can I just add that I love your podcast and it is the one like. If I am asked what should I listen to to help me understand menopause, Yours is absolutely the first one that I provide because of the breadth of information you provide, so you're doing an amazing job.
Sonya:That's really lovely to hear. I love getting that feedback. Gosh, there's 120 plus episodes now and all of them with such different experts, different conversations, so it's really means the world to me that you recommend it. So thank you so much.
Kirstin:All right.
Sonya:For anyone that is new. Why don't you tell us all a little bit about who you are and what it is that you do in this world of the menopausal transition?
Kirstin:Yeah, sure, so I have a very interesting career, but out of the last nearly three decades, the last 15 years have especially been focused on working with women through transitions, and where that began at the beginning of that period of time was in the perinatal space. And it's no surprises that as they got old that I moved into the perimenopause space. So that is really where I've been working now. And you know, as a clinical psychologist, I'm working with women who are finding their mental health is being impacted by the experience of perimenopause. But I also work with a lot of women who wouldn't necessarily kind of meet a diagnosis of menopausal depression or anxiety or anything like that.
Kirstin:But I really, I guess navigating what I like to call the psychological tensions that seem to come up in this particular developmental stage and I mean all of the work is just so like I just so love it and I, you know I just it really is my happy place. On top top of that, I also educate and train within the profession of psychology in this area. I founded All About Her, which is kind of a collective of psychologists who really work in the menopause space as well, who make sure they're across the cutting edge information, because now that we're at this stage and the conversation's been happening, there's a lot happening, isn't there?
Kirstin:There's so much more happening, we're just going to see some cool changes ahead, and we're all very committed to staying on top of all of that. So they're the things that I spend my time doing and being a part of, and, yes, I just feel super fortunate.
Sonya:And we as women are super fortunate to have amazing professionals and clinicians like yourself in this space helping. So today we have a specific topic that we've come together to talk about. You and I have kind of gone back and forth a little bit on how we were going to frame this conversation, but I think it's a really important conversation that I feel is being heard a lot more in the public space, and I wanted to bring in someone with the expertise like yourself to really unpack what it actually looks like, what it actually means, and that is the impact of this transition through perimenopause and menopause on personal relationships, but very specifically, marriages and or long-term relationships and the potential for disruption and, in many cases, an actual breakdown of that relationship.
Kirstin:Yeah, yeah, look, I think we've known for quite some time that this is a stage or an age, and therefore a stage of life, where a lot of marriages and de facto relationships do break down, although I guess in prior generations it might have been at that more into the menopausal, you know, in the menopausal years, where things were really falling apart. It does seem to look, when I kind of look at the research, it does seem to be happening more in the pre-menopausal stage and I think there's some kind of cultural factors in relation to that. Typically there's more financial freedom, not for everyone, but for some. There's certainly less taboo about relationships ending. I think.
Kirstin:Whereas previous generations might have waited for the kids to be grown up, I think generations now are aware that toxic relationships aren't great households to be raising children in. So yeah, I think there's a bunch of factors that might have brought that shift to the marriage breakdown happening earlier. But what we do know is that the vast majority of marriages and de facto relationships that end during this stage of life are initiated by the women. I think the stats said about 70%, and that doesn't surprise me. And it doesn't surprise me for two reasons.
Kirstin:One is I see it a lot in the therapy room and I have throughout this, particularly this last 15 years when I've been working solely with women and dedicated to transition work, and secondly, it makes complete sense to me from a psychological perspective as well. So, yeah, I can understand why it's starting to be talked about more, because it's actually been happening for a while.
Sonya:So what I'd like to dive into that you just touched on then is that it makes sense to you from a psychological aspect. Talk us through what you mean by that.
Kirstin:Yeah, this is going to be a crude kind of categorisation, shall we say, but I think there's two kind of significant drivers that I can see in this particular you, this particular reality of relationships ending at this time. So the first one is the very real impact of symptoms and the pressure it places women under. They're struggling, they're not able to manage the gazillion things that they used to manage. It causes tensions in relationships, conflicts in relationships. It can certainly impact intimacy in relationships, so relationships can become even more kind of fractured than they might've been, or the fractures really start showing, and so I would kind of look at that as the symptoms and experience of perimenopause and the challenges that that brings are having a big impact on the relationship.
Kirstin:Then, on the flip side, I think and this is still kicked off by this neuroendocrine event, perimenopause but then the flip side of that, or the addition to that, is that this is a stage of life where the research and we do need more, we need more everywhere, don't we?
Kirstin:But the research, we need more of what I mentioned before the psychological tensions that I just see time and time again and are scattered amongst the research that women are faced with during this period of time, and those psychological tensions are things like the shifts in their identity, their shifts in their value systems and in their ideology, shifts in how they experience themselves sexually, and also and also this increased drive for autonomy and to be really pursuing the things that fulfill them, above and beyond the roles that they play.
Kirstin:So I hear from a lot of women I just want to live from me, not from my role as mom, my role as a wife or a partner. I want to experience joy and pursue things that give me joy, not just the things that my kids do, that you know I really enjoy and are joyful, and the things that I share with my partner. I want to pursue the things that bring me joy and that light me up and that interest me and engage me, that are just about me. And so from that perspective, particularly if you don't have a partner who's able to support those things and, as a minimum, support them, let alone hopefully possibly grow with you, then that poses challenges and challenges for relationships as well.
Sonya:Yeah, I can imagine that. I know that I have experienced a shift in identity and, you know, lack of people pleasing and a growth into almost a different person, like I feel like I've significantly evolved over the last eight years or so and I recently chatted with neuroscientist Dr Jen Hacker-Pearson and we talked about that neuroplasticity that is going on during the perimenopausal stage and that is a part of a reshaping and a reforming who you actually are as a person into this second half of your life and it's a really exciting time for many, but it's a very confusing and, I would imagine, confronting time for some as well, and particularly if it's taking the blinders off in things like relationships where perhaps there has been a level of tolerance or there has been a level of you know, this is it, this is just where I am and this is what I do, and that starts to shift when we start questioning all of where we sit in that and what are we willing to tolerate for the next half of our life.
Kirstin:Yeah, absolutely. There's so many points that I want to pick up from what you've said. And you know, just as an example, and I'm usually pretty happy to share my story. So I've been with my partner for seven years now and I truly believe that he is in a relationship with a very different person version of me, and I actually said that to him the other day. I said I really feel like you, you just, you just don't know this this previous version of me, like I'm inherently the same but at the same time, vastly different. And yeah, so that that's my experience. And I often say and I'm reasonably confident my ex-husband won't be listening to this podcast episode but I also kind of reasonably confident. I also can say that I don't know how we would have traveled these years together, my ex-husband and I, because and I'm a little bit embarrassed to actually say this now because I've moved so far from this place but I was known as a bit of a yes, wife, just in terms of like for me, I saw it as not sweating the small stuff.
Kirstin:You know, it was just like, and there's an element make it easy yeah, I just that was me and now I am far more comfortable with not going with the flow, with not speaking up none of that self-silencing which I've been kind of doing a fair amount of research into lately and you can really see the um. The research shows the impacts on women's physical health and psychological health around self-silencing. Like it's great to have it confirmed. It's a bit scary that it's a reality and yeah, so I really feel as though this is the stage where, as Jen says Jen's a friend of mine and a colleague as well that neuroplasticity does create some vulnerability in us, for sure, but it also is this significant opportunity where we are, our brains are just changing and it how can, how can our brains change and then not have us and how we are in the world and who we are in the world and what we want in the world change as well. I mean, it's just kind of common sense yeah, yeah, it is, isn't it?
Sonya:and um, I think from my perspective, I've seen it as shifting my female friendships. I'm still very happily married to the same person that I met when I was 25. So it's like 35 years and it has not always been an easy cruisy. 35 years.
Kirstin:I'll be completely honest about that.
Sonya:You know we've had our ups and downs, but we have, you know, come through them all, and one of the things that you know, I know, comes with that is a building of a beautiful resilience, and my husband and I quite often laugh about the fact that we feel very much like we're now married to different people than we were when we married in our 20s you know it's almost like having two marriages, but we just married the same person, Esther.
Kirstin:Perel, the relationship guru, often says you know, I've had multiple marriages, but I've only had one, you know.
Sonya:And I think she nails it with that statement yeah, yeah, and that is exactly how we feel within our marriage you know I'm super lucky to have a partner who has been willing to grow and evolve and support through all the things that we've been through, and we've done that equally. But I noticed a shift in my female French when that definitely came from a place of me. I loved what you said before about self-silencing and I think I did that in my female friendships more so.
Kirstin:It was important for me to find friends that I felt like were long-term friends, but I did then realize that we'd all grow in and move into different directions and yeah, so I noticed that same shift in my relationships, but more from a friendship perspective yeah, and I see that too, because often we come into this stage and the friends that we're bringing into this stage might have been the friends sometimes from primary school, but, you know, high school and uni and careers and things, but also friendships that are formed when in our mothering years and I think once, once our children are at an age where they're, you know, kind of independent, even though some of them don't leave home and stuff, and it's probably not going to change anytime soon, but there, you know, it does free you up in so many ways and I think that also, that kind of shift in in the context of your life and the things that are going on in your life creates an extra sense of freedom where it's like what do I still have in common because your kids are going off and doing their own things too. So, yeah, it's a bit like, oh, even our kids are really moving on from those friendships, their own friendships at times, and it just creates a really different scenario. And I also find some of the feedback that I get from clients and I've got a few beautiful faces in my head when I think about this is that in their friendships they that they want the conversations to change. They want the conversations to deepen and be far more nourishing in terms of who they are and how they think about the world and what's important to them. They do want to move from the conversations about the annoying husband or partner or what are the kids up to.
Kirstin:If their friends aren't able to move into those kinds of deeper conversations, it also starts to have a sense of disconnection. And the other thing that I hear a lot from clients around this same topic, I guess as well is they often want a lot more alone time too. So their friendships and women need women. I'm absolutely a big believer in that. But we need, you know, we need just a few women. You don't need lots, but we need a few really close women in our lives Doesn't necessarily mean we need to see them all the time, and I think perimenopause and menopause is naturally certainly in the early stages of menopause is naturally a time where we often do want to retreat.
Kirstin:Menopause is naturally a time where we often do want to retreat, and I guess sometimes I hear that friendships can't tolerate that space that's needed by one or some of them. There's other people who take it personally. There's other people who maybe aren't quite there yet. Perhaps they also need the support systems from the friendship group, and the retreating then feels like somewhat of a rejection. So those, I think, are the things that shift in friendship, female friendships, during this period of time.
Sonya:That's really interesting and I'm glad I'm not the only one that's experienced that. So, taking us back to the topic about marriages and long-term relationships and the shifts and dynamics that are happening in those, for somebody that's sitting there listening to us having this conversation and they're thinking, yeah, actually that's how I've been feeling. I'm that person that is actually questioning is this a relationship I want to be in for the next 30, 40 years? You know where do I sit in this. What do you recommend? Somebody that is maybe one foot in, one foot out, yep. What are the tools that you can lean into to either work out for yourself if you want to be fully invested in the relationship and therefore find ways to move forward, or, on the flip side, decide that actually no, this is no longer for me and I want to decouple from this relationship now.
Kirstin:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's a hard place to be and I actually think that that is a really common. There's a lot of people in that one foot in, one foot out scenario because most of the time if they're out, then they start taking action and might come and see me, for example, to just work out a goal and you know all of that kind of jazz.
Kirstin:I think the first thing is for them to really be understanding themselves, you know, and what has actually happened for them. So there's a fair degree of intersection. That I'd be encouraging. Like, how have you changed? What is it about this relationship that isn't meeting your needs and isn't kind of feeling fulfilling? Was it always the case? Because that's the other thing. It always the case because that's the other thing? I mean, if you've kind of been hanging on for a while, um, then you know, yeah, that's that's one particular scenario.
Kirstin:If it's been more, if it is more coinciding with this particular stage of life, I would be really curious, um about, or I'd be suggesting to someone to explore what is it that you're wanting that you're not getting? What is it that you're getting that you're not wanting? But what is it that you're getting that you're not wanting? But I'd also be suggesting have you talked about this with your partner?
Kirstin:It can take a while between that introspection and getting clear on what's missing, and getting clear on what you want and why you don't think that what you want is possible before the conversation.
Kirstin:Jeez, it's a tricky conversation, but it's an important conversation and it also isn't just one conversation, it's many. It'll be very difficult to hear and really confronting, and it may not go so well the first few times, but there will come a point where I think you can make an assessment whether whether your partner is going to be on board in evolving in this relationship, because the encouragement would also be for them to evolve like what are they not? What would they like more of? What they like less of? How are they feeling in themselves? Are they fulfilled as people within themselves, let alone within the relationship? So I mean that's the ideal right and at some point in the conversations I think women would be able to determine whether their partner is interested. But but even through the conversation it's actually only reinforced. It's going to happen or it's no. I have lost that kind of love and that desire to try and work on this, or it will be okay, this might be possible.
Sonya:And it might be. I didn't know you were feeling this way. Oh my gosh, if I'd known.
Kirstin:Or it might just be you are not capable of this evolution, you're not capable of supporting me in mine and you're not capable of an evolution as an individual, let alone as a couple. So I think they're the kinds of loose questions to be tossing around and mulling over. But it definitely starts with a reflective kind of position about ourselves. We have to know what it is, what's gone on for us that it's now different very good advice and, like you say, not something to be entered into lately.
Sonya:none of this is going to be easy, but if it does show you where either there are areas to grow and evolve together or there's obvious that you're not going to be able to, at least then you can kind of remove yourself from that one foot in, one foot out scenario.
Kirstin:I do get lots of clients in that one foot starting to see me in that exact scenario, and none of us like living in the unknown. I try and slow them down a little bit on either way, like slow them down from no, okay, I'm just going to stick with it, and you know that's how it is. So let alone you know I do slow them down if it's like okay, I'm going to move out or I'm going to say it's over or whatever. Either way, try and remain in the area of possibility for longer, which is really difficult, and I think that's where support's needed. And ideally support comes from our, you know, close friends, from our women, male friends, sometimes family, sometimes professionals. But we need support to be able to stay in the unknown long enough to work out what the next right step actually is.
Sonya:One of the topics that I wanted to raise with you and you and I did chat about this beforehand we're not here to dive into this topic too deep and that is that what we've talked about so far is very much the assumption that somebody is in a healthy enough relationship, that it's likely that you can have those conversations, that you can come to some type of mutual agreement.
Sonya:It's going to be if you do decide, you're both feet out that leaving is actually going to be an option. Although not easy, it is still an option that's on the table. I think it's important to recognize that there are many people that are in relationships, unfortunately, that aren't that healthy. And how does this conversation that we are having now so much more publicly around menopause and in having that conversation we are highlighting the symptoms and the areas where some women are really struggling a bit with cognitive function and memory and moods and lack of libido and things like that For someone that is perhaps in a relationship with that sort of information can actually be weaponized and used against them? What, if any, advice? Do you have someone in that situation?
Kirstin:Yeah, I think that this is a really important conversation to have, and sure we won't go deep because it's very, very complicated, difficult stuff going on within them. You know their memory can go and find difficult work. Their bandwidth is way less. Therefore, their capacity to please and placate, to settle which is a massive role task for women in these kind of scenarios they do a heck of a lot of trying to really keep the peace and that requires a heck of a lot of self-sacrifice, self-silence and persuading, and you know our capacity to do that is compromised and the ability to be gaslit, or the vulnerability to be gaslit even further, is increased in these scenarios and in these situations. And so I would like it to be very much acknowledged that it is an even more vulnerable time for women in these situations because they're less able to keep themselves safe, as safe as is possible whilst they're in that scenario. Leaving may be beyond their capacity as well, because of all those reasons that they don't have even less confidence in themselves. They have even less ability to think things through and plan how they're going to go about it. So I mean by this particular stage of life, if they've been in that kind of relationship, you know, throughout and until this stage, they already have limited confidence. Unfortunately, the gaslighting has probably been reasonably successful so that they don't believe that they can manage on it. They don't believe they're worthy of leaving. They do believe that these things are their fault. They can't even they've been so well trained for want of a better word to that. They can't even rely on their own perception of events in the moment, let alone their recollection of them, and so, yeah, they become more vulnerable and I think we just need to understand how you go about supporting yourself during that period of time.
Kirstin:The ante is just that you'd still be trying to access the services that can support women in these scenarios. On the flip side, although still extremely risky, is that shift in just have no fucks anymore, I can't do this, I don't want to do this anymore. Which which sounds fabulous because it might be the motivation for women to actually finally leave, but it could increase the confidence prior to finding a safe way to leave and a safe place to live. So that inability, you know that irritability that we experience, the shorter fuse, the less capacity for stress, to manage stress, increases our likelihood that we'll say the wrong thing. We might be therefore more inclined to actually say no when for decades we've said yes because, very rightly well, we've reduced the capacity and secondly, we're also at the stage where it's like a minute, so it can increase the risk for women. It's, it's tricky, really tricky thank you.
Sonya:I really wanted us to acknowledge that that situation exists, unfortunately, sadly, heartbreakingly for women, and, you know, not just women, for people that find themselves in unhealthy relationships. I think it's also important for people that are perhaps supporting other people through those relationships as well, to understand exactly what you said that this can actually be a more vulnerable, more dangerous time for them. And perhaps if you do have a friend that you are seeing going through this kind of struggle within her own relationship and you have this burning desire to just go come on, just get out of there, like, seriously, you've just got to leave this, why are you putting up with this?
Kirstin:That that isn't necessarily actually going to be the safest path for her to kind of just immediately throw herself into, yeah, yeah, and there's organizations though that, and there's organisations though that can help women in these scenarios and can help the people that care about them navigate and plan for how to get out. And often it's an interesting concept because planning to get out when the moment arises it can be unexpected and unplanned in that last moment, but the planning still needs to be done beforehand for this unknown day date that they might have the opportunity to do so, and ideally then things are being put in place for when that opportunity unexpectedly arises. But, yes, there's definitely organisations that can certainly help with that and they are. You know, they've just got so many resources and ideas and linked with other community groups that can really help people navigate that and, as I said, the people that help them.
Sonya:Fantastic. I will link through in the show notes to some of those organisations so that anybody that is listening, that feels that they may be beneficial to them, can find them easily today. I hope that some of those organizations are educating themselves now that this transitional time and the impact that it does have on so many aspects of a woman's life are being included in their upskilling and their education programs and their ability to perhaps support women in this particular transition a little bit maybe, differently to how they might support someone that's a bit younger.
Kirstin:Yeah, it is actually happening because I've been asked to deliver two workshops to a couple of organisations here in Perth that do recognise that and appreciate that that's needed. I'm a clinical and forensic staff, as you know, so the early part of my career, this world is very familiar to me as well. Yeah, from those years, those decades.
Sonya:Thank you for going down to that little path with me. I really appreciate it. And moving then on to when you do decide to, or you're capable of, leaving a relationship and you find yourself at this time of life in a scenario where, suddenly, you are single for potentially the first time in a really long time, what kind of tools do you recommend then that somebody leans into? Because I would imagine that that can be just as confronting finding yourself suddenly alone in the world when you're used to being in a partnership for such a long time good or bad. How does someone in that situation kind of find her feet?
Kirstin:Yeah, I think it is a really unusual period of time and I do remember that period of time and I guess one of the things that made a big difference for me is I had a lot of support and I've had a means of earning an income and I think we can't overlook the privilege that some of us have and that others don't. That's a really big difference. And I know people don't want to hear this I certainly didn't, but it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard, it's going to be difficult. You might find that there's this initial experience of relief like, oh, how cool is it? You know, I don't have to cook a meal for someone else, or maybe the kids are still moving between two houses. Particularly, that scenario can be like, oh, I've got my kids this week and then oh, they're off and I've got all this time to myself. So there can actually be this honeymoon period funnily enough, that word you know for this period of time when your friends become single again and then the loneliness can step in. And if you haven't had massive financial stresses in the early stages of how do we manage, how do I support myself financially and sorting assets and things, at some point they're going to arise.
Kirstin:At some point you're going to find that you really miss having someone that you can talk about every day with, at the end of the day, that you have a sense of being in it together. Kids having a problem and, depending on the nature of the relationship, post-breakup you might feel still quite alone in managing that. Or your elderly parents have stuff going on and now you don't have that person who you've. Yes, you might have decided it's not right for me to stay in this relationship, but you miss the sense of team. You miss the sense of I've got someone to back me up here. We're in it together. I know that was a particularly profound shift for me. I think as well. Unfortunately, what seems to happen is you lose friends from the other side and all of that kind of stuff. It really just needs to be acknowledged as a period of profound grief, whether it comes immediately or whether it comes a bit further down the track. You can't escape it. It's going to bite you on the bum at some point. It it's really important to allow it to be there and it may not be something that you say in that period of time. You know grief for a long, long time. We're all very, very different with how we experience these things and the circumstances that we were in and we find ourselves in.
Kirstin:But what I would certainly do is I'd be starting to use this as an opportunity to really again clarify well, now I'm single, because you've done the thinking of who am I, what do I want? Can I get it in this relationship or not? No, okay, now I'm single, and so now we have to actually revisit some of those questions who am I as a single person? What do I want as a single person, which is very different to what do I want in my next relationship, and a lot of people jump into that one straight away. I don't have rules around how long you have to be single before you start dating. Whatever works for you. But I certainly think there is a really important step in how do I want my life to look as a single person, so that, if and when you do meet someone, you're really in that kind of steady, solid place within yourself and you've got a good sense of who you are. You've got a good life, you've built a good life as a single person and they just complement it rather than finish, fill gaps and stuff like that. So, so I think that's really important. I'm a big chaser of joy, because this is really the time you often don't have to answer to someone about how you spend your time, how you spend your money, who you spend your time with, all of that kind of stuff.
Kirstin:So it's like what is it that you can bring into your life that will help you grow, that will really reinforce and reward this decision that you've made, because you've made it to be supportive and nourishing of yourself. You know, if you've decided to leave the relationship and I guess that's the difference, because sometimes relationships do end and you weren't the one that ended it you know, if you've decided to end this relationship, it's because you want something more for yourself. Now it's up to you to go and get it. You don't have to rush out and do a gazillion things, but it is a really great time to think about what was the one thing that I often said to myself I'd love I'll do that when I retire, or do that when the kids are really off my hands, or whatever. So'd start experimenting.
Kirstin:And I use that word really intentionally, because, again, in the therapy room, what I find women can get hung up on is they don't want to start something without knowing that it's the thing that they're supposed to be doing and that they're going to like it and all the rest. And I'm like I get it. And sometimes people know what they want to do and they're quite confident enough they go and do it and it does give them all the things they're hoping for. But that sense of getting it right can really paralyse people. But what if I don't like? What if I sign up to a book club?
Kirstin:I think you might know I joined Burlesque last year, at the beginning of last year, in my chasing joy, 2024 year still, I'm still doing it because I love it. Um, but I could have said, oh, but I don't know if I like it, so I'm not going to try, and then I'd just never try it, right, um? So we need to be very flexible and allow ourselves, give ourselves the permission to try and not like, try and pull out. You know, try and stop, don't finish the term of whatever you might have signed up for, and just be really curious, curious as to what brings you joy, what nourishes your mind, your soul, your heart, whatever. That would definitely be something that I would suggest because it's very anchoring and in difficult times when we've got other sources of joy that come into our lives relatively regularly, it helps us. It's the soft pillow we land on when life kind of pushes us over again, rather than falling on a very, very hard surface.
Sonya:I love that thinking of it as the soft pillow that you've got there to catch you when you do fall, and when we all fall at different times. Definitely I don't want to spend a whole heap of time on this, but you did mention something then that I think is worth kind of having a little bit of a conversation around before we finish up, and that is those that find themselves in a situation where they didn't choose to end the relationship.
Kirstin:Sometimes there's a sense of seeing it coming and, having seen it coming, it's a shock that their partner might actually have gone ahead and done it, but the reasons why may not be such a surprise and reflection. And then there certainly can be oh my God, I definitely did not see this coming. And you know, I think in those scenarios the process can be a lot more intense and a lot more difficult and there's a heck of a lot more grief. And usually the grief shows itself pretty quickly not thoroughly comes down the track, when you feel, you know, you feel like you're building a life that is, you know, something that you have meaning in and find fulfills you. And things can take a while.
Kirstin:So, like any experience of grief, it really does take time. And unfortunately, on top of all of that is just all the stuff to sort. There's assets, there's liabilities, there's kids, often to have conversations with extended family even, um, you know, there's just so much to navigate. I actually think it takes a really long time for all of the bits to be sorted enough to actually be like okay, now I can actually just focus on the, the hurt and the loss and the pain. I mean that it's not like you're traveling okay, while you're sorting all the stuff either, but you really don't have a lot of space to to be with and work through lots and lots of support. I I think knowing who are in your corner I think is really, really important, and one of the things that I did because I was in that scenario, I didn't make the choice was I set up an email address which was essentially to myself, like my own email address.
Kirstin:And I wrote a lot of dear so-and-so emails of various various flavours, particularly every time I wanted to um pick up the phone and sell some stuff or send some messages or something it's akin.
Sonya:It's akin to, you know, writing in a journal and then afterwards, yeah, exactly it is. It's never meant to be seen, it's not going to actually go to anyone, but there is something very cathartic and healing about actually getting it out absolutely, absolutely.
Kirstin:I read it. Um, a few years later, before I just deleted the account, you know, there was a part of me that was like oh, my god, how embarrassing. Yeah, thank god it was only going to me, right. Um, and then, yeah, there was definitely a part that was like wow, look how hard that was and where I am now. It felt really good actually to read it. Yes, the embarrassment was there, but at the same time, it was like wow, I've done something pretty cool, which was to get on the other side of this and be in good shape.
Sonya:Yeah, I think a couple of things that come to mind for me are having the belief that we can do hard things. Yes, they are hard, there's no denying that they're hard, but we have so much more capacity to do hard things than we give ourselves credit for Amazing. And the fact that you know what we get out of all of this in the long run is so much resilience, and that fact that you know what we get out of all of this in the long run is so much resilience, and that resilience will then pay you back tenfold when other scenarios crop up in your life that you have to face and challenges and that sort of thing. So the way I'd like to kind of wrap things up today is that the one common thread that I kind of feel was um was evident through all of those different scenarios and situations that we've talked about, is the importance of support.
Kirstin:Absolutely, which is why, if there's limited support or not the right kind of support within your family and friendship groups and stuff, it is even trickier. Most of us do have someone that we can be talking with this about. Maybe it needs the friendship or relationship needs to be taken to a deeper level to really be able to get the support that's needed. It's a life experience where we can also practice not doing it all, not coping with it all on our own, and actually learning how to reach out and accept support, because women also aren't particularly good at that. Generally, we're the ones that provide it.
Sonya:As you say, it's such a catch-22, isn't it? Because we are so inherently good at giving the support. So when somebody does reach out and ask, we fall over ourselves most of the time to provide the support, but we are so reluctant to ask for it in the first place.
Kirstin:Yeah, that's truly, truly important for us to do and will make a very big difference on how women experience this particular kind of ending of a significant relationship, regardless of how that occurs. I think the other thing that I, if it's okay, would like to say in winding up is it may or may not feel like relief at the beginning, you know that first step where you're no longer in that relationship, but it is and it will provide very much an opportunity to create a life that aligns with that version, the new version, the midlife version of you. And you know, maybe if anyone's listening and they're in the thick of it right now and it's all very, very awful they may not appreciate that statement, Others might find it hopeful, but either way, it is a reality, it is an opportunity. We can really be intentional, intentional in how we live and, you know, live our lives from that point forward without needing to accommodate anywhere near as much another person like a partner. So that's the most of it, I would say.
Sonya:I love that. I think that's an awesome note to wind everything up on. Then, kirsten, thank you for your time. I'm going to link in the show notes to all those places of support that we talked about. Obviously, I'll link through to your own website and your beautiful instagram account as well, so that anybody that is listening that finds that might get some some support and solace from just following you.
Kirstin:they can get that as well thank you so much for having me. It's always so cool to have a chat with you and, as I said, really cool to listen to the guests that you have on in those conversations. So thanks.
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