Imperfect Marketing
Imperfect Marketing
The 4As That Help Businesses Survive Digital Marketing Changes
In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, I sit down with Melih Oztalay, a veteran marketer and CEO of a 38-year-old digital agency based in Michigan. With roots going back to the earliest days of the internet, Melih brings a seasoned perspective on how marketing has evolved—and where it's headed next.
We dive deep into the realities of marketing in the AI age, practical steps small businesses can take to improve their visibility, and why emotional resistance to change can be the biggest barrier to progress.
The 4 A’s of Change Framework
Melih shares his powerful 4 A’s framework, developed after witnessing how clients struggled to adapt to SEO changes:
- Anticipate Change: Understand it’s coming.
- Accept Change: Let go of emotional resistance.
- Adapt to Change: Adjust your strategies and tools.
- Adopt the Change: Implement and move forward.
This mindset shift is essential for staying competitive in a constantly evolving digital world.
The Impact of AI on Marketing
- How AI-powered search results may now be 4x more valuable than traditional Google searches
- Real-world examples of using ChatGPT and Perplexity to boost productivity—from building Mac backups to creating towel product images
- Why schema markup is now more crucial than ever for both traditional SEO and AI sourcing
- Tips on using AI to generate Q&A schema from your podcast transcripts and blog content
Common Marketing Mistakes and How to Avoid Them
- Why skipping the marketing foundation sabotages sales
- The dangers of keyword stuffing and outdated SEO tactics (like white text on white backgrounds!)
- Why every page on your website needs to have a clear focus and intent
- The importance of not being afraid to use AI tools—even if you’re just getting started
Actionable AI and SEO Tips for Small Businesses
- Use ChatGPT to generate schema markup from blog URLs
- Ask AI why your business isn’t showing up in AI search results—and follow the suggestions to improve
- Build “notability” by publishing press releases, getting quoted in industry publications, and appearing in directories like Wikipedia
- Let AI help interpret your analytics and recommend next steps for improvement
Key Takeaways for Marketers
- Marketing is a starting point, not an end point—your job is never truly done
- Use AI to learn, test, and optimize, not to replace thinking
- Don’t ignore change—lean into it with the right mindset and tools
Whether you’re a marketer trying to navigate AI disruption, or a small business owner seeking practical ways to improve your online presence, this episode offers a wealth of ideas and a grounded approach to digital transformation.
Connect with Melih Oztalay
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melihoztalay/
Website: https://smartfindsmarketing.com/
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Hi, I'm Kendra Korman. If you're a coach, consultant or marketer, you know marketing is far from a perfect science, and that's why this show is called Imperfect Marketing. Join me and my guests as we explore how to grow your business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned along the way. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing. I am your host today. I'm really excited because I am joined by May Lee, who is going to be helping us talk about strategic digital marketing. Welcome, Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2:Hello, kendra, glad we have a chance to do this show together.
Speaker 1:So how did you get into digital marketing? Jeez, do you remember?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do, I remember. So our company is 38 years old. Right, it's a marketing agency out of the Detroit metro area, specifically in Birmingham, michigan. If you go back to 87, when the corporation was created, we didn't really have the internet, right, we had AOL and CompuServe and those guys. It was in 94 that I started the internet group. The story goes I was invited to Sun Microsystems offices in Southfield, michigan. Back at that time I was literally shown the internet, like with Yahoo and Netscape, you know, using Netscape, and that was kind of the starting point of this whole process. But then the question was why do you tie this into marketing? Right, well, the 1990s was a lot of fun, but it was like the wild, wild west of the Internet. We didn't really have rules, we didn't have any boundaries, no structure and nothing going on. But that's how things started. Started was back in those days.
Speaker 1:Very cool. I love those stories because I remember Netscape. I used that and I remember starting with retargeting when that first came out in the early 2000s and it was just, it was crazy, right, the different ad networks.
Speaker 2:Public ads was a big deal.
Speaker 1:Was the only thing right when retargeting came out. It was like this is so cool. So, yeah, no, I totally get that. And yes, I do remember Netscape very, very well and I'm like how did we live without Chrome? That's what I want to know.
Speaker 2:That's where we were and where we are today. It's been a long ride, believe me.
Speaker 1:We are asking Jeeves because he was the best that there was at the time. So let's talk a little bit about. You have a framework right 4A's framework that you talk about and leverage. Tell me a little bit about this and how this helps businesses align with real business growth.
Speaker 2:How did I develop the concept of the four A's of change? And it all comes down to August 2013,. Google releases the Hummingbird algorithm. The Hummingbird algorithm is fairly significant in terms of how it impacts search engine optimization, how it impacts you know ranking positions, and so on. At the time, it was like one more change, right? Yes, it was pretty significant, made a huge dent into how people continue to use you know, optimize for Google.
Speaker 2:But about 90 days later, I lost a very large client. The way that the story goes is they said hey, listen, we love you, you're doing everything good, but we're no longer playing the Google game, and so I had to take a step back and try and figure out well, how do I get these, you know, get them to understand that this is the world that we live in, this is digital marketing.
Speaker 1:They're not playing the Google game. There's only one game.
Speaker 2:Right, they're not playing the game. No, I know exactly. And so I had to come up with. I had two responses to that. The first response was say listen, if you want to get off the Google train, you're free to do that, but should you decide to get back on this train somewhere down the road, it'll cost you exponentially to catch up to your competitors who have not gotten off the train. I said you got to live with this, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, once I brought the competitors into the conversation, things change a little bit, but not necessarily to the level that I was hoping it would change in this particular situation. But at the same time, it started to raise a question in my mind about change and a company or an individual's ability to take emotion out of the picture and realize that you know you need to accept change. So I came up with the four A's Anticipate change, which pretty much everybody says yeah, I know that the second one is the one that's the hardest. Pretty much everybody says yeah, I know that the second one is the one that's the hardest which is accept change. This is the emotional factor, and when you're in business, you really need to take emotion out of the picture. You could fuss and fume all day long about this change. It could have an impact on the investment you already made. It could have an impact on the budget. Moving forward, it could have a lot of different impact. Okay, it doesn't change the fact that this is going on and you have no control. We're moving forward. And it doesn't change the fact that your competitors are going to continue going down this road too. So the faster you accept change, the faster you're going to be able to stay in touch with you, stay competitive in the marketplace or get ahead of your competition. So fretting, fussing and fuming for a month or two months or sit there and have issues with this is not going to do you any good.
Speaker 2:Move on, all right, that's the second A. The third A is a little bit easier. It's about adapting to the change, meaning that what are the processes I have to change? What's the SEO I need to change? What's the AI I need to change? Whatever it is right, figure out what needs to be changed and start making those changes. Plan for those changes. And the last one I like, which is the easiest one, which is adopt the changes, and it was just implement them, which is the last part. But the biggest hurdle in these four A's is that second one and the individual that we're working with. And just get over the emotional aspect and just move on and just stay focused on the idea of being staying competitive in the marketplace. Those are euphorias very cool.
Speaker 1:So you talked about a different a in one of them which was, I think, adapting to change, and that was ai. I just read an article not too long ago actually I think I just read it this morning of the date of our recording that each AI search result that's like driving traffic to your website is worth four. Like Google searchers, like regular search engine clickers.
Speaker 2:I'm willing to buy into that idea and I think the best thing to do is just use my own experience right. I went to Google to do some research, ran my search, went to ChatGPT, ran my search. In Google's case, I had to click on 10 different websites before, I think, I found what I was looking for. And I'm not saying that the results were irrelevant, but it's not what I was trying to do with my research. I went to ChatGPT, looked at my results over there. Not only did I have five results, but each of the five results meaning the websites it was sourcing for this research were exactly what I was looking for. I got to where I was going faster with ChatGPT than I did with a regular Google search. So to that extent, I would agree with what you're saying. Yes, one ChatGPT result, or if you get sourced and you're in this ChatGPT research is much more valuable than what you're getting from Google. And listen, Google's not stupid. That's why they got Gemini started, right.
Speaker 1:I use perplexity a lot. I remember during the holiday season perplexity actually rolled out inside perplexity, shopping and buying, where you could actually purchase stuff without even leaving perplexity when it did all the research, which was really cool too.
Speaker 2:So these AI systems definitely understand monetization, which is good, right, Because I remember when Facebook came out right.
Speaker 1:When Facebook came out, we were like how are they going to monetize this? Then nobody had any idea how they were going to monetize it.
Speaker 1:No, I know Right, and it's like now everything starts with the monetization piece, Right, which is, I think, very good for for business, especially small business, because it makes it so much more accessible. So how is that changing? You know, you've got AI, you've got AI search. You've got regular SEO and search engine optimization, which is a little bit different at times but becoming, I think, a little bit more of the same. It's optimizing for AI to an extent. Now Then there's the geo-targeting to make sure you're getting people that are in-network and nearby. What are you seeing? How is this changing what businesses are doing?
Speaker 2:Let's give the viewers something to chew on. That I think will be helpful, that they can actually go and do something with their website. That I think will be helpful, that they can actually go and do something with their website. So my answer is going to be that you need to add schema S-C-H-E-M-A schema code to your website. Now you're going to say, well, I've known that since 2007. Well, yeah, I know. I'm glad you know that since 2007, when Google and Microsoft and Yahoo got together and created schemaorg. Yeah, we know all that.
Speaker 2:But schema has been changing over the years and there's even a different form. And when I say different form, there's additional schema code put into your website and into your web pages, especially like your blog pages. My suggestion is let's create a blog page right Once it's been published. Take the URL, go to chat, gpt or Gemini or Copilot or Cloud or Plexity, whichever one you're using Open the URL and ask it to provide you the schema code for that page. Copy and paste the code, write into it and you're off to the races. And what I mean? Off to the races? What does that mean in this case? The more schema code you have in a website or on a webpage, not only is it better for the Googles of the world, for those traditional search engines, to identify what you're about and what your page is about or that specific URL is about, but it actually facilitates especially the newer type codes that get added in facilitate the AI chatbots to better understand and you have a higher probability of being sourced when somebody's searching for whatever it is that is relevant to that page or to your website.
Speaker 2:There's the other thing I would suggest Go to your favorite chatbot and ask it to recommend companies that are in your industry, right, whatever services or products that you provide. Take a look at the list. Nine times out of 10, you're not going to show up, Okay. So your second step is going to be tell me how do I get recommended? So it's going to give you a list of hey for your website, for your situation. These are the recommendations.
Speaker 2:Follow those recommendations, work through that list, and one of the things that you're going to find in that list is is your website or your webpage identified as something notable? What does that mean? Have you put out any press releases that would identify and verify who you are as a company, what services and products that you offer? So press releases are valuable to that extent. Are you in Wikipedia, for example, which also is a huge bump in something what's called being notable? Are you as a company? Are you linked or quoted in a publication a newspaper, a magazine, industry publication, that type of thing? These are things that are notable and they are also required in order to get sourced inside of a AI chatbot or a response, I should say.
Speaker 1:Very cool tips. So, yes, get yourself on Wikipedia, get your company on Wikipedia and definitely ask, don't struggle. You know I have team members that are part of my agency, that have names like Susie Strategy and Frank Fundraiser and that are just projects.
Speaker 1:They're just custom GPTs with a set of knowledge that I believe in and trust, and then they ask me a lot of questions. I just had a 20-minute conversation with Susie today, actually when I was working through some stuff, and I don't always take what she says verbatim right, but it gives me some information and makes it a little bit easier for me to focus some of my ideas and get where I need to go. So that's always good. I love that and I think it's just really important to think about that and not to be afraid to ask AI, because AI will tell you right exactly how you need to do it.
Speaker 1:I remember I got a phone call from a client and they're like we're not coming up in search for the service that they were providing in the area. And I was like, because you didn't use any one of those words on the entire page, not one of those words is on that page. I'm like we can't do that. And then so they went away and they're like, okay. Then they come back and they're like, can we put it in white text on a white background? And I'm like, no, you used to be able to.
Speaker 1:I was like yes, that was a thing.
Speaker 1:Right, I was like that was a thing in 1990. We don't do that anymore. We don't game the system, because if you try to game the system, you lose, guaranteed at this point, right. So yeah, so I've got lots of fun stories, so yeah. So ask AI, what are some great things? I was like okay. I was like here's all the words that you need to add to the page. This is you know, you want to come up for a city. The city has got to be on that page somewhere, right? You can't, just you're not going to magically show up if you're not using those words.
Speaker 2:But the difficulty, I think, for a lot of people is they want their website to come up for and I'm just throwing out an idea 20 different keywords, right? Well, organically, you can't stuff one page with all of that, right? There's something called keyword density. That is very important and you know, depending on who you talk to, it ranges from one to 3%. So if you have 800 words on that page, you could only have one to 3% of that with keywords. Something that's relevant, right. But what does this turn into? Well, if you want 20 different keywords that you want to be shown up for, you're gonna need 20 different pages. You can't have one page. Try to get right for everything. It's just not possible.
Speaker 1:Every page needs to stand for something.
Speaker 2:All this goes back to the hummingbird that silly thing called hummingbird back in 2013.
Speaker 1:I know that. I still remember that was a huge one. It was definitely a huge one. A lot of people took a hit on that one. So we know we need to be doing the schema. I think I talk to people all the time about podcasting. One of my previous guests actually even suggested using podcasts to do Q&A schema, so that you've got question and answer format, and I'll do that with the transcript right. So I've done that for a few clients and so there's a lot of technology available to us. I find that sometimes we don't always use it the right way. So what are some of the mistakes that you're seeing small to mid-sized businesses make? Because they're going after sales, not necessarily marketing and relationships and brand building.
Speaker 2:You bring up two very interesting points. The first one is the fact that they're so focused on sales that they miss the fact that they need the marketing foundation right? Without the marketing foundation, you're not supporting your sales efforts, and so, instead of, you know, just throwing out an idea, instead of closing every lead that you're talking to, you're going to end up closing every fifth lead that you're talking to. You're going to end up closing every fifth lead that you're talking to because your marketing foundation isn't there and you're spinning your wheels. You're better off putting a little bit of investing a little time into that marketing foundation. Let's I don't know, take a whole week and find four hours out of the week, spread across seven days or five days, just so you can, you know, focus on that. I think that's a huge mistake that we tend to see quite often. The other one is the one that you're bringing up just using the tools that are on the market. Well, ai is a phenomenal tool right now. It's been on the market for two and a half years. Well, ai is a phenomenal tool right now. It's been on the market for two and a half years. Figure out how and don't be afraid of it. You mentioned that earlier tonight. I wholeheartedly agree with you. Don't be afraid, just go to ChatGPT and ask it anything you want.
Speaker 2:The other day I used it to help me build up my backup system for my MacBook Pro. Listen, I don't know all the terminal commands to go in there and type all this out, but I went to ChatGPT and I said, oh here's, give me a backup plan for my MacBook Pro, give me a backup plan. And it told me exactly what commands to put into terminal to set things up. The good news is, all you have to do is click the copy button, dump it into terminal, paste it into terminal and you go through this process. I mean, that's just one example of how you can use AI, but imagine what you can do as it relates to creating blog posts, right, creating photos, images.
Speaker 2:We have a client project in which we're doing it's towels, wholesale towels. Well, we got ChatGPT to create the towel images with people right In a spa setting and they with the right colors, everything that you want. All you have to do is go tell it what you want. You know you might need some time to learn how much detail to give it or whatever the case is, but this goes to the other core element, which is being afraid of using the tools on the market. Either it's because of time issue I don't have enough time for this or it could be a cost issue. I don't want to spend more money, whatever that might look like. At the end of the day, believe me, you're going to have missed opportunities and it will, in fact, cost you more in the long run if you don't invest your time or invest some budget. There is no version of a zero budget. I'm sorry. Does that work? Yes, it just I'm sorry, so that worked.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Anyway, those are two scenarios.
Speaker 1:No, I think that that's so important. I actually was using perplexity because my SharePoint is like way over space. If you guys use Microsoft, you can understand that Anyway. So I needed to archive a bunch of things and I'm like okay, how can I bulk archive anything that's older than like 2021? Right, and I wanted to do that because I backed up my whole SharePoint onto a backup drive and stuff like that, so I'll still be able to access it. But I'm going to bulk, get rid of the stuff and I'm like I have no idea how to do that. Can I do it? And it's like, yes, you can. Here are three different ways. You can do it step by step. I'm like fantastic.
Speaker 1:And I'm like you know, one of them involved buying something, and you know the rest were just using built in Microsoft tools, and I'm like sign me up, I'll let you know how it goes, because I'm on the time to actually do that step. At least I know what I need to do. I have done the backup, though, but yeah, I mean, it's just so amazing how much we can do and how much knowledge we have access to that will allow us to understand, step by step.
Speaker 2:And the variety that's associated with that knowledge is crazy. Pick a subject, pick a topic. It doesn't make a difference.
Speaker 1:Any subject, any topic. It's crazy and again, it's not perfect out the gate. I was writing some, when I'm writing these posts, I was like, is this true? And so I go. And it had a source and it was a real website. And I went to the website and I read it and I'm like I don't know about this source. Well, interestingly enough, it wasn't exactly true.
Speaker 1:They had like that site had actually like, twisted the truth a little bit so that it wasn't 100% accurate. So definitely be checking it and trying it out before you just assume it's all right, which I always think is important. So yeah, but I thought that was interesting because I was like I don't know about this site being 100% reliable.
Speaker 2:You can get AI to verify the information. You can ask it how accurate is this, or is this accurate? Just be very blunt about it and let it come back with you know parts of it where it will say, yep, this is right and this is wrong.
Speaker 1:Perplexity, gives me a chart at the end and goes line by line and says true, and sometimes it says sort of. It says true, false or sort of. You know, it says it says true, false or sort of, and then it says like how, why, it's sort of true, which I think is always so interesting. Um, but that's so much fun. Yeah, I, I love it. You've got to adapt, you've got to adjust and you've got to be aware of of what's going on in today's market. This has been an amazing conversation, I think, with some really strong takeaways for anybody watching and listening about how you can improve your online presence, and I think that's a big piece of who we are.
Speaker 1:Right Back in the 90s, you needed a website to be real. Then you needed social media to be real. Well, now you need to be found in AI to be real, right, so it just keeps growing and being different and there's just so much opportunity out there. This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. Before I let you go, though, I have to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests, and that is this show is called Imperfect Marketing, because marketing is anything but a perfect science, as we both know, what has been your biggest marketing lesson learned along the way?
Speaker 2:The marketing lesson, I would say it is keeping up, especially in our industry. There's no question, you got to keep up with what's going on. I have the ability of being an industry author and a guest speaker, which forces me, whether I like it or not, to always stay on top of what's going on. But that's the thing you said. Marketing is not a perfect thing, and I agree with that too, because ultimately, marketing is about finding a starting point, not an end point. There is no end point to marketing. You find a starting point and, based on the results, you go back through and you change things right. So if you think of marketing being a cycle, you have a cycle of a strategy. You have activities, you have those activities have tasks and you have to understand how to measure those things, and usually whatever we have is already being measured. So once now, with the AI tools, you take the measurements, you dump it into chat, gpt and say tell me what this?
Speaker 2:all means right and take it one step further and say how do I correct? What are some steps I can do to improve on these results? Because you're not correcting anything. That's the other thing. You're improving on it, right? You found a starting point. You base on the results, you make changes. No-transcript.
Speaker 1:That's very cool. I love that. Marketing is a starting point, not an end point. It is never done. That's why our to-do lists are forever and, as a marketer, I love AI because it helps me get through more of that to-do list than I ever did before. Notice, I didn't say all of the to-do list because I don't think we will ever be through all of the to-do list.
Speaker 2:There's no version of that. No, I agree.
Speaker 1:Never, never, never, so again. Thank you so much, Meili, for meeting with me and having this conversation. I really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2:It was great being on the show Kendra.
Speaker 1:Oh, ways to connect with you in the show notes or the description. If you're watching on YouTube, so be sure to go ahead and jump on down there and connect with Meili to learn more, and if you're looking to connect with him for his services, again feel free to do that too. Thank you again so much for tuning in to another episode of Imperfect Marketing. If you learned something today, it would really help us if you would rate or subscribe wherever you're listening or watching. Thanks so much and have a great rest of your day.
