Imperfect Marketing
Imperfect Marketing
Why Podcast Ads Work Better Than Facebook & Google Ads
In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, I sit down with Eric Smith, President & COO of Incremental Media, to explore the world of podcast advertising and how businesses can leverage it effectively.
Eric shares his journey from Vox Media to building Incremental Media’s podcast division from the ground up. We discuss:
The Evolution of Podcast Advertising
- How podcast ads connect to traditional marketing like package inserts
- Why host-read endorsements deliver stronger trust and engagement
- The rise of podcasts as a core channel for brands seeking diversification
Demystifying Podcast Attribution
- Why promo codes only tell part of the story
- How tools like Podscribe bring digital-style tracking to podcasts
- Understanding the real ROI of podcast campaigns
Finding the Right Fit for Brands
- Why “considered purchases” outperform impulse buys
- How niche podcasts often deliver stronger results than large shows
- The importance of testing across multiple categories—not just your own industry
Getting Started with Podcast Advertising
- Practical steps to launch a test campaign
- Budget flexibility and how to avoid overspending
- Why partnering with experts can help you identify the right shows
Key Takeaways for Marketers
- Storytelling and authenticity make podcast ads powerful
- Data and attribution tools are critical for measuring success
- Diversification matters—sometimes the best-performing shows aren’t what you expect
Connect with Eric Smith:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-smith-a0a07b54/
Website: https://www.incrementalmedia.com/
Whether you’re a small business owner curious about podcast advertising or a seasoned marketer looking to diversify your media mix, this episode offers valuable insights into harnessing the power of podcast audiences.
Are you ready to explore how podcast advertising could transform your business? Tune in to learn how to navigate this fast-growing and effective marketing channel.
Looking to leverage AI? Want better results? Want to think about what you want to leverage?
Check and see how I am using it for FREE on YouTube.
From "Holy cow, it can do that?" to "Wait, how does this work again?" – I've got all your AI curiosities covered. It's the perfect after-podcast snack for your tech-hungry brain.
Watch here
Hi, I'm Kendra Korman. If you're a coach, consultant or marketer, you know marketing is far from a perfect science, and that's why this show is called Imperfect Marketing. Join me and my guests as we explore how to grow your business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned along the way. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing. I'm your host, Kendra Corman, and today I am joined by Eric Smith and we are going to be talking about podcasting, but a little bit different than we normally do. Today, we're going to be talking about getting exposure, leveraging audiences, through podcast advertising. Welcome, eric. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks, kendra, excited to be here. Talk to me about how did you get into podcast advertising?
Speaker 2:Yeah, kind of by accident. I mean, I've always been a big podcast listener, just from a consumer standpoint. So I've been at my current company, incremental Media, for the past five and a half years. But before that I spent another five years at a company called Vox Media, which is a big digital publisher. So they have brands like Vox, voxcom, eater, curbed, sb Nation. They merged with New York Magazine when I was there, so a big digital publisher, and they had a really rapidly growing podcast business. So I sort of, you know, learned the foundation of the podcast world when I was there on more of the publisher side, and now here at Increments Media we're a marketing partner who helps brands diversify their media mix into channels like podcast advertising. So now I'm more on kind of the buying side as opposed to the selling side. So I've kind of seen both areas of my unique podcast world.
Speaker 1:Very cool, very interesting. So why do you guys recommend and represent brands and buy space on podcast?
Speaker 2:Like I said, I joined five and a half years ago now. I moved into the president and COO role in January and I came basically to build out our podcast division. The company had historically been in more kind of traditional offline channels. So package inserts is what the company was most well known for, so like when you get a package and there's printed offers from other brands inside. We're actually the largest buyer of inserts in the country, so we're huge in that space.
Speaker 2:But you know, we had sort of decided to kind of want to evolve the company a little bit and podcasts have a lot of surprising similarities to some of those more traditional channels, so even in just the way that they do attribution so meaning like using a promo code is a very basic example to sort of evaluate the individual podcasts and then how we sort of, you know, buy the advertising is on like a podcast by podcast basis, kind of like an insert program, answer program basis.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of unique similarities. So the founder and CEO of the company was just sort of deciding to kind of diversify their offering and we had, you know, built a relationship and decided that it made sense for me to sort of kind of build the podcast division from the ground up and you know, technically speaking we have six channels we specialize in, but podcasts is now our second biggest and some of the other channels have like a 15 year head start. So podcasts have grown really big really fast, which is exciting and, just, you know, challenging for me to kind of figure out all the you know fun and challenges that come along with that.
Speaker 1:Well, and I never thought of the similarity between the inserts and podcast advertising, but I can definitely see it because it's very niche, right, you're targeting into a specific audience that follows a certain show or falls into a category that would be interested in that show, right, whereas, like certain things like subscription boxes, like I get those inserts all the time with. I like FabFitFun is my big example I always get a ton of those little inserts in there. I never thought of it that way, but I think that, yeah, there's, it's a lot of efficiency that you can purchase because you're targeting such a specific audience and it's an audience that's already a following.
Speaker 2:We do like to, as a company, kind of be a big fish in a smaller pond, right? So there's, you know, hundreds, if not thousands, of companies that can help you with digital advertising, but there's only really a handful that know podcasts or know inserts in the way that we do. So, you know, even just from a business standpoint, we felt like it's a place where we could get big quickly and really make a name for ourselves. So, yeah, it kind of fits into our little incremental media world as well.
Speaker 1:You know, I work with a lot of small to medium sized businesses and we're always trying to figure out okay, how can we get effective and efficient marketing, and there's only so much that social media will bring it right. You got to go beyond that to get your name out there, and I know that there was a bunch of research that was done, a lot. It feels like I should say a long time ago I actually don't even remember how long ago it was anymore, but it wasn't yesterday, so I'm going to go with a long time ago. That said, audio is more well retained by, I think, the listener than almost any other medium and they have a tendency to have better recall on the ads and podcasts and on Spotify and things like that. Have you guys been finding that, or how are you measuring success? Is it just the tracking?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, so it's a good question. So well, first, we specialize mainly in what we call the host endorsed style, right? So we're sending physical products most of the time to hosts and then having them talk about that experience in the ad reads. So a good example is like we work with Naked Wines and they send wine to hosts and then hosts say you know, I had a glass of whatever for my Naked Wines box recently.
Speaker 2:So if you have a physical product, I think that's kind of the best way to utilize the full value of podcasts, not to say, if you don't, you know you can't also have success there.
Speaker 2:But that's really what it's best for, I would say, is that kind of like e-commerce.
Speaker 2:Sometimes subscription brands do really well too.
Speaker 2:But from an attribution standpoint not to get too technical but basically we partner with a company called PodScribe that essentially brings the same elements of digital advertising to podcasts. So you know they can have a pixel within the podcast that fires and then a pixel on your site so they can say hey, you know, I know person listens to this podcast, came through and converted and matches on IP address. So it's very similar to connected TV advertising, if anyone's ever tried that before, but it's really the most kind of sophisticated way to say okay, you know, maybe 100 people use my promo code, but Podscribe picks up 300 people and it's like, hey, not everyone's using the promo code for a million different reasons. They might have gotten hit with your you know, facebook ad or Instagram ad afterwards and got a better offer there or you know, whatever it may be. So yeah, long-winded way of saying like PodScribe is a really, really helpful tool to sort of bring the elements of digital advertising that people are used to into our more kind of you know traditional audio offline world.
Speaker 1:I love that and I've always been a fan of host reads or the host perspective, because they don't fast forward that section right. I mean when they start playing the ad right, a pre-recorded ad or something like that. A lot of times people are skipping on their phones or their device and you don't do that when the host is speaking and so that natural in read is so much better. I mean, way back in the day when radio was popular, we did that.
Speaker 2:We talk about it a lot in terms of, like, people have like a relationship with their hosts. Right, like I've, you know, listened to Bill Simmons for probably a decade. At this point, like I feel like I know him. You know, do I really I don't know, but I feel like I do.
Speaker 2:So same type of thing with, probably, you and your listeners, right, they feel like they've gotten to know you and, you know, sometimes people say they think of podcast hosts as like a friend. So you're trying to sort of capture on to like, hey, you trust me, I like wine, check out Naked Wines. They make a really cool, interesting product. So you're sort of trying to, you know, just like influencer advertising or anything else. But you got to sort of, you know, if you're a marketer out there listening, like try and find the sort of niche that makes sense for you. You know, like I have a friend who makes religious jewelry and he's found like religious podcasts that you know hosts that are sort of speaking about prayer or something personal to them. So, anyways, you got to kind of sort of find your category or niche that that makes the most sense.
Speaker 1:Well, and again, I mean, there's just so many niches on in podcasting that you can find the audience, and not all of them are huge. There's a lot of smaller sized audiences. That's good, because that means you're not getting the extra noise from other places, and I think that that's so important. And, yeah, I mean that's why I do podcasting is to help accelerate the no like and trust factor. Right, they hear me, watch me, listen to me every week. Right, consistently I'm here. I would like to think that we're building a relationship. Okay, for those of you listening and watching, I know you, I love you, we're good, we're friends, okay, so what makes this so effective? Is it just the niche? Is it the product? Because you guys are sending the product. What's resonating with your clients?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I would argue, I guess, a couple of different things. One, it helps to go to an expert, right? I mean I think you nailed it Like there's now over 4 million podcasts that exist. I mean there's only, let's say, like five to 10,000 that are like actually big enough to advertise on, that have some elements of scale to them. So even just from the five to 10,000, it's like, well, which ones make the most sense for my brand? You know, that's why you come to a company like us who says, hey, here's the half a dozen that really make the most sense for you. So that's a huge part of it, I would say.
Speaker 2:But then leveraging, like, as many tools as possible, like we have certain competitive intelligence tools where we can say, okay, you know you're a brand that's in the food subscription space, here's what all the rest of your brands in your space are doing.
Speaker 2:And here's some shows that they're buying that you know you probably can't get on because a lot of times podcasts like to be exclusive by categories. I mean, if they work with you know one wine subscription brand, they won't also work with you. But here's a bunch of other shows that you know look similar to that show that might make sense for you. So you know, if you don't have the luxury of having those tools, it is just more about kind of looking into like Apple Podcasts and saying, okay, you know, I really think the true crime listener is my customer, like that sort of female 30s to 50s type of person feels like my customer. So just kind of go through the Apple podcast charts and look up and it's surprisingly easy to sort of track down the context of some shows and figure out if they're a good show for you. So yeah, that's how I would answer that.
Speaker 1:So all this talk about wine? I do love wine, but it reminds me of the Dilbert cartoon. I don't know if you ever saw it, but I think it was. Dilbert came in looking for a new job. So he went into HR and said I'm looking for a new job and they said well, what do you think you want to do? And so I think it was engineering. Well then you have to like triple the folds of your brain or something like that, and they go through it and they get to marketing and he goes oh yeah, that's fine, that's just liquor and guessing.
Speaker 1:So now we're talking about wine we're talking about finding the right podcast. I'm like there's a little bit of that. That's why this is imperfect marketing, so that's always good. So what kind of brands do you work with If a company that's listening or watching is interested in getting started with podcast advertising? You know you're working with physical goods to an extent. Are you working with service-based businesses too? Or, like, who's the ideal customer for your company or for podcast advertising in your opinion?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I would say we have a little tagline on our website that says, like we're not search, we're not social, we're not TV, we're everything else. So, like once, brands have sort of used up what we call like the typical model marketing channels, excuse me. So, like you know, you're kind of starting to see some diminishing returns in meta. Or you know search is getting more competitive or all the things that you know are sort of happening generally in marketing. That's when you're sort of like all right, we got to start. You know some new channel. That's typically where, like it's ideal to kind of hit, you know, test podcasts and see if you can scale that channel the way you have other channels. But from a type of business standpoint we're usually I don't know if I want to give like an exact revenue range- but, somebody who's kind of built, you know you have a solid foundation of a business.
Speaker 2:At that point I will say, you know you mentioned before service businesses. Those can work. Like we work with a business that's like connected with dieticians, we work with blinds companies, so like that are more service based businesses. So those can certainly work in podcasts as well.
Speaker 2:I will say, the thing that does tend to work best, no matter where you're in e-commerce or a more service based business, is something that's more of a considered purchase. So, like you know, if you're a $15 wallet, like podcasts might not be the best channel for you, if you know you have at least like $100 average order value, but that's usually what tends to work best. So something that's a little bit more of a considered purchase, because usually podcasts are people who are, you know, a little more affluent, a little more educated than like the average person, and they're usually going to somewhere to learn right. So you're kind of catching them at like an interesting mental moment when you can reach them. So so the ideal brand would be somebody a little bit more of a considered purchase and somebody that you know again could be e-com, could be lead generation, but just make sure it's not that you know $10, $15 item.
Speaker 1:Is the considered purchase because? Is podcast advertising more expensive on average? No, not necessarily In some of those other channels you were talking about.
Speaker 2:No, not necessarily. I was going to say the. You know the CPM kind of varies. It could be as low as like a $10 CPM and as high as like a $30 CPM, depending on the show.
Speaker 2:So you know I don't work day to day in like meta advertising and things like that, but brands have told us that that's pretty standard these days in those channels. So it's not necessarily more expensive but you get a really, you know, significant amount of space to advertise about your brand. So technically speaking, you get like a 60 second ad and that more like host read style of advertising. But you know most hosts these days go over 60 seconds. So it could. You know we had a nine minute ad read the other day from hosts. So sometimes I'll go on and on about a brand, but yeah, I mean most of them are averaging like between 90 seconds and two and a half minutes. So you know, if you're a brand that needs a little bit more selling space to communicate your value proposition podcasts are really good at that versus, you know, social or other channels where you're kind of limited from an ad space standpoint.
Speaker 1:Yes, we hosts, we love to talk, and if you win us over with stuff, you know it's, we're gonna. We're gonna share free stuff.
Speaker 1:Because that's part of what we do to add value to our audience, hopefully on a regular basis. So very cool, very interesting. So if someone wanted to get started with podcast advertising, how do you recommend that they get started? I mean, some people are going to want to call you guys and we'll have your contact information in the show notes and description for people that want to work with you, because you do have those advanced tools, right, you do have that competitive intelligence. So if you're looking for the more sophisticated buys, definitely, definitely reach out. If they're scared about budget, right, do they still reach out? Do or do you recommend that they start on their own and then reach out once they're, like, really successful?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I would say we're, you know, more flexible than most companies in the space from a budget standpoint. So yeah, I'm always happy to have a conversation and see if it makes sense. But you know, if you just don't think it's appropriate to bring in a company like us, then we usually recommend testing like anywhere between like eight to ten shows. And you want to do it across at least like two to three categories. Because you know you'd be shocked how many times like a company comes to us and it's a beauty brand and they're like I only want beauty podcast, that's like all I want to do. And then we'll be like, yeah, let's try like some true crime shows Like you know, these, you know half a dozen shows do really well for other brands. They should do well for you too. And you know, hit your CPA goal, roas goal, whatever your metric is.
Speaker 2:And you'd be shocked how often like the category you're in isn't necessarily the best category to advertise in in that podcast channel. So, yeah, you want to test. You know it's crowded, oh, and that for sure as well. And even, like in the beauty example they're maybe those people are really knowledgeable on beauty and so that they know their beauty products so they don't need to be advertised about it, you know. So, anyways, you want like two to three categories. Like you know, a news, a couple of news shows, a couple of true crime shows, a couple of you know, maybe pop culture shows about, like Love Island or the Bachelor or whatever it is. So, anyways, you want to test a few different categories because you know you'd be really surprised how often the category you don't think is going to work well is the one that actually performs the best. So, yeah, that'd be my recommendation.
Speaker 1:Very cool. So you got to diversify a little bit. I think this is fantastic. So if a company is looking to get started and if you want that competitive edge to really understand where you're going, you definitely want to take a look at incremental media, especially because you guys have other tools at your disposal. Right so we talked about inserts. Right, but you guys also do shared mail, do some other things too. Right so we talked about inserts, right, but you guys also do shared mail. You do some other things too, right, yeah, mail newsletters.
Speaker 2:We have kind of I always describe it as like two sides to our business. So there's the more traditional channels, so that's like package inserts. Shared mail is a huge part of our business. So that's like money mailer, valpak clip if you ever got any of those through home, so it's, you know, shared mail. Right, it's sharing the cost of sending mail to a home typically does really well for, like, home services companies or people who are more in the kind of lead generation space debt companies actually does really well with and that there's, like you know, traditional direct mail that still does well. I mean, you know, every six months now the postal service keeps increasing their expensive is to reach people. So you know who knows how long that channel will stay strong for.
Speaker 2:But and then, yeah, what we call the emerging channels is the other part of our business.
Speaker 2:So that podcast, that's email newsletters, that's YouTube creators, that's another sort of kind of sister channel to podcasts.
Speaker 2:So it's like a 10 minute video and two minutes in the YouTube creator kind of stops and does a little ad read. So rapidly growing space in our little podcast world. So so yeah, we've got a bunch of different channels and that's a big benefit of us as well as like we can just look at a brand's business and say, hey, based on you know the audience, you're targeting the goals you want to hit, like you're the best for podcasts or you're the best for inserts. So we've sort of really evolved our business over the past few years to kind of help almost any kind of brand. Again, we are pretty selective in terms of you know we don't do great at driving to retail as an example. So like if somebody is trying to get you know products to sell in Target, like that's probably not us. But if you're selling a product direct to consumers and it's got a little more of a considered purchase most of the time, we have a channel that makes sense for breath.
Speaker 1:If you're thinking about an effective way to reach your niche customer. You don't want to start a podcast yourself because you don't want to grow that audience. You want to work with established audiences already. Podcasts are great. I mean, the hosts have been spending years and hopefully hundreds of episodes growing their audience and growing their. The trust factor with that audience that it gives you a little bit of that baked in know like and trust factor, right, that resonates with the audience and hopefully will end up in the purchase of your product or service. So very cool.
Speaker 1:So I think that there's a lot of things for people to think about before they get into podcast advertising. So we want to start with your strategy what your goals are and who your audience is. That's what everything in marketing starts with, right. But if you think that that might be something that you want to do, definitely check out Incremental Media. Again, their information is down below. But if not and that's not a path that you want to go and you just want to, like, see what there is out there again, go check out the Apple podcast charts, right.
Speaker 1:Start seeing what podcasts are trending on YouTube, because I think YouTube actually, for podcasts, is overtaking. I think it was second last I had heard for podcasts platforms, which is just crazy. It blows my mind, but it makes sense, right? So there's a lot of different options for you to go down. Think about who you want to reach, how you want to reach them, and then take your next steps from there. Before I let you go, eric, though, I do need to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests. That is, that this show is called Imperfect Marketing. Marketing is anything but a perfect science. What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned along the way?
Speaker 2:I always love that question, by the way, when I listen to the podcast. That's fun. I would say no one really truly has all the answers. So I think so often people don't want to go to subject matter experts so they think they've got it all figured out. But like I promise you that nobody does. Even you know somebody who lives in Breeze podcast. I'm constantly like, oh my God, that's a new podcast. I didn't even know that existed. So you know, just ask questions. There's nothing, you know. Don't don't be afraid to sort of wear your heart on your sleeve, because I promise you that even the subject matter experts definitely don't have all the answers. So yeah, that's my answer.
Speaker 1:I think that that's really good, because nobody has all the answers. Nobody has all the answers. If I got a dollar for every time somebody says oh, I got screwed over by an agency, a marketing agency, I'd be rich and I would be retired and I would be living on an island somewhere. But I'm not. Because I don't get a dollar every time someone says that Because they're not asking enough questions, right? Not every solution is the right one for you, and, again, you have to ask the right questions to make sure it's the right fit. I love organizations like yours that are like hey, we're a little picky because we want to make sure we're going to deliver for you, right? That doesn't help your reputation either, and so I think that there's a lot of value there. But, yes, none of us have all the answers. We like to. We like to pretend we do sometimes, but marketing is definitely not a perfect science, and so, therefore, things are different.
Speaker 2:Thankfully we've been around. Actually, our 20th anniversary is on Friday, so you know 20 years of data and history. You got a lot of you know, knowledge on what works or what doesn't work in your channel. So, yeah, you know, at the end of the day we don't want to waste our time or a brand's money on something we don't think is going to work. So I don't think everybody thinks that way of like companies in our space, but it is something we pride ourselves on because you know, there's only so many hours in the day and only so many brands we can work with, so we want to work with ones that you know we think make the most sense.
Speaker 1:So I love that. I love that I know a know a handful of people or companies that will turn down businesses because they can't get the return that they would be looking for or would be ideal, and if they can't do that, they don't want to waste their time, the client's time or money, you know, not getting results, and so I think that that says a lot about your company and how you guys work. So definitely check it out. Check out all of the ways to contact incremental media and Eric down in the show notes or YouTube description, wherever you're listening or watching. If you learned something today and I hope that you did it would really help me out if you would rate or subscribe wherever you're listening or watching. Until next time, have a great rest of your day.
