Are You Marketing to the Wrong People? How to Find Your Moose

In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, I sit down with Kay Miller — sales expert, author of Uncopyable Sales Secrets, and co-creator of the “Be Uncopyable” movement. Kay shares how businesses can stop blending in and start standing out by identifying their ideal customer — or as she calls it, their “moose.”

From her early days in male-dominated sales industries to building a brand around differentiation, Kay breaks down why strategy must come before tactics — and why chasing everyone often leads to serving no one.

We discuss:

Why Most Businesses Struggle with Their Ideal Customer

• The danger of trying to be “all things to all people”
• Why having business doesn’t always mean having profitable business
• How defining your “moose” clarifies your message and increases results
• The power of focusing on the 20% that drives 80% of your revenue

The “Moose” Framework Explained

• What a moose is — and why you shouldn’t waste time chasing squirrels
• How to identify customers who bring both revenue and long-term value
• Why some audiences may look ideal but lack motivation to buy
• When and how to pivot if you’ve targeted the wrong market

Strategy Before Tactics

• Why sending a mailing without clear strategy is a mistake
• The temptation to “just do something” in marketing
• How to evaluate your ideal customer through a dollars-and-cents lens
• Why profitability and alignment matter more than volume

The Power of Offline & Differentiation

• Why physical, offline marketing stands out more than ever
• How targeted “shock and awe” packages can create major ROI
• Why branding goes beyond your product or service
• How to position yourself as uncopyable — even in crowded markets

Key Takeaways for Marketers

• Start with strategy, not tactics.
• Define your ideal customer before refining your offer.
• Being different is not optional — it’s essential.
• The right customers make your business more profitable and more enjoyable.
• Marketing works best when it’s aligned, intentional, and focused.

Whether you’re just starting your business or re-evaluating your direction, this episode is a reminder to pause, reassess, and ask:

Who is my moose — and am I actually speaking to them?

If you’re ready to stop blending in and start building a business that’s truly uncopyable, this conversation is for you. Tune in and rethink the way you approach your marketing strategy.

Resources & Links

Connect with Kay:

🎁 Website: https://www.linkedin.com/in/millerkay/
📌 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/millerkay/
👉 Download: https://www.beuncopyable.com/action-steps

📚 Uncopyable Sales Secrets by Kay Miller: https://amzn.to/4ljeQA9 

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi, I'm Kendra Corman. If you're a coach, consultant, or marketer, you know marketing is far from a perfect science. And that's why this show is called Imperfect Marketing. Join me and my guests as we explore how to grow your business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned along the way. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing. I'm your host, Kendra Corman, and today I am really excited to be joined by Kay Miller, and she is all about being uncopyable. Um, she is got books and a whole strategy and tons of things, and it's all about your ideal customer, which is one of my favorite topics to talk about because everybody skips that part, right? We want to be all things to all people so that there's money in the bank. However, that usually leaves us poor because we're not talking to anybody by that time. So welcome,

From Sales To Uncopyable Strategy

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Kay. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, Kendra. I'm very excited about our conversation today. Talk to me about how did you get into this? Because you were in sales, right? And then you ended up focusing on ideal customers.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Yes, that's right. It's quite a journey. And um, I graduated in from college in 1982, probably before most of you listening were born even. I was born. You were born, okay. You were at least born.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

I was well into board, into my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Um, so I graduated with a degree in marketing, and I just thought it would be super cool to be in marketing, but I found out quickly that you don't really get marketing jobs with a four-year degree. You got to have to map, have a master's, and um, I wasn't interested in doing any more school. Uh, so I got into sales. Sales is where a lot of people end up accidentally, and it can actually be a really good thing. I am an extrovert, a people person, so that part was a was a fit. Um, however, that also presents problems because sales is really more about listening. I got uh into two different super male-dominated industries. I started out in cabinet hardware, so I was calling on retail stores, um, ace hardware, true value hardware, um, so that I could I sold to distributors, so I'm getting them more customers. And then I moved into automotive products, mufflers and catalytic converters. Still same thing. Sold through distribution, worked to, you know, my husband was in catalytic converters.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

They did this. His company did the ceramic substrates for catalytic converters. So I'm well versed in cat more versed in catalytic converters than anybody else should be. But I just thought I'd add that two cents in.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

That is a first. That is definitely a first. I've never talked to someone who said, Oh yeah, I know somebody in catalytic converters.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Right? That's why I had to add that one in. Okay, so you were in mufflers and catalytic converters.

SPEAKER_00 3:03

Mufflers, and I got this nickname Muffler Mama, which I tell in my book. I have this book, Uncopyable Sales Secrets. You know, they're not as much secrets as things that people know but don't do, but also some really different ways of looking at things. So, of course, I recommend my book, Uncopyable Sales Secrets, and you'll learn if you read that book how exactly I got this nickname Muffler Mama. But then, oh, I don't know. I was, I think, 33 years old, and my biological clock started ticking, ticking, ticking. I couldn't tune it out. Uh, my husband and I had been married for five years, and I wasn't even sure I wanted kids. And he was kind of like, well, you're gonna be the one doing most of the work or whatever, handling this, so it's your decision. I end up pregnant. And both of us at the time were traveling a lot, which I loved. Um, locally at a pretty big territory, actually, out of Washington State, but also traveling around for trade shows, meetings, and he was building a speaking career he traveled a ton too. So, bottom line, we couldn't both keep traveling. So we flipped a coin, not really, but we decided, okay, how will this work? Let's work together in this business that he'd started. So that's where the uncopyable brand, everything about our company 30 years ago started. Uh, when we were this fledging, fledgling company, I just given up a big salary, a really good salary at that time. Oh my gosh, expense account back in those days, company car, all this stuff. So we had to, it was make or break time.

Launching The Uncopyable Brand

SPEAKER_00 4:45

We thought, okay, we're gonna do this thing. So we're starting from scratch and was scary.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Very scary. Okay. So when you were talking about your biological click ticking, the only thing in my head was from my cousin Vinny. The have you seen that scene where she's like putting her foot?

SPEAKER_00 5:04

I can't remember that detail though.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

It's Marissa, Marissa Tomei. And I can't remember what the character, but I still remember her like stomping her foot and like the whole attitude. It was so much fun because of the biological club. And I think she was saying it was ticking and she was stomping her foot, and that was just funny. Okay. I digress, but I'll put a link.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Logic put out the window, ladies, if you're listening, young ladies.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

I'll put the I'll put the the link to that video in the show notes so you can check it out.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

That movie's hilarious. Um, it is just coming back to me. I can't remember the little short guy that's so hilarious in that movie, too. So here we are with this kid. They send you home with this blob and say, okay, here's your tiny human. And we, as I said, pressure was on. So we this we morphed into this, you know, what lesson are we going to teach? What uh concept is gonna set the world on fire, and we came up with being uncopyable. Especially Steve and I both had uh experience in the trade show world, and that is such a microcosm of all of this, where you go to a trade show and everyone's either they're sitting behind their booth, back in the old days smoking, or you know, just eating or talking to each other, um, not really trying. And that's one of the things that we really helped um exhibit companies, um, trade show management. But also, people would just look at each other. Oh, they have a popcorn machine, we'll have a popcorn machine. Oh, they're handing out brochures, we'll hand out brochures. And it would be a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

We have a putt putt. Let's do a putt putt next year. Yeah, let's do a putt putt. It's like crazy.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

And of course, sometimes, like at CES, let's do a booth babe, which you know what? Booth babes don't attract me as a female buyer.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

I went to SEMA um way back in the day, which is the automotive, the supplier equipment manufacturers association or whatever. And um, yeah, booth babes, the tire booths loved them. So you're not saying you were a booth babe, though. I was not a booth babe, no. No, I was I was a supervisor. I actually reviewed the talent and got to pick our booth babes.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Yeah, and kind of it was just assumed that you would do those kinds of things. And I haven't been to a trade show for a long time, but uh the ones I've been to don't have booth babes. I haven't seen any with them either. I know, who knows? But um, they could have the booth dudes or something. But the the point, you know, the whole thing is yeah, what is someone else doing? Let's try that too. And that's not how people are going to choose to do business with you. You've got to show them how you're different. And we've gotten a lot into branding for your company as being uncopyable, personal branding as well. We've got a book called Uncopyable You, which is all about your personal brand. And really, we're all uncopyable, especially human, you know, being humans. Um, and this is where we have an advantage over AI, although we got to use AI, but you know, there are 7 billion people on the planet, and we need none of us have the same fingerprint. Isn't that bizarre? Isn't that bull you I? So we're all uncopyable, uh, but we have to really, especially with a company brand or your company, you have to define really who you are, who you serve, and who is that ideal ICP, ideal customer. And we call that your moose. And if you're watching behind me, you'll see a big picture of a moose. And this is an analogy.

Trade Shows And Copycat Traps

SPEAKER_00 8:40

If you were a moose hunter and you wanted to hunt moose, how would you go about that? Well, you would find out where the moose live up north in Canada. You'd find out, you know, how they communicate, you'd find out what kind of bait, what do they eat? Uh, you need to learn about those moose. And if you're in the forest or wherever they are and you're wasting your time on rabbits or squirrels or bears or anything else, that's a waste of time. You know, it's opportunity cost, you know, when you think of the 80-20 rule, which applies to so many things in life, you don't want to waste your time on all that 80%. You want the 20% who are really going to deliver those results. And so I think that's one of the biggest problems. And I think you you alluded to the fact that you agree that, you know, and I said it doesn't matter if your marketing is perfect or imperfect, if you're marketing to the wrong people, who cares?

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Well, and I think, you know, again, starting out, I get it. People really struggle with identifying their moose, right? Because they just need money. And I get it. We've all been through that stage, I think, when we started out. But when you really start to like make a difference and pay the mortgage and pay the bills and hire staff or, you know, contractors or whatever, that's what you find when you've honed in on who that is. And people really struggle with it. Like, I'm getting ready to go into some meetings this week where I'm reviewing plans with clients, and I'm gonna be very specific on who I believe that their target audience is. Um, like I had one nonprofit that was like, well, the participants in our program and donors and grant writers are our target. And I was like, first off, the the participants aren't giving you any money. So no, they're not your target, right? Your primary target is donors because the number one thing you need is money. I'm like, everything else is just we'll deal with that later. Right. We have to talk to one person. And people skip that. What have you seen when you've gotten people to hone in and focus on on their moose?

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Well, for one thing, you can have a very specific message. And I'll just go back to how we started many years ago in the trade show industry. So as I said, booth trade show, uh, the people that work trade shows didn't really seem to care and they were just, you know, phoning it in more or less. Well, then they would complain to the association who ran the ran the show or the the show management company that they weren't getting enough leads, they weren't getting enough results. So our moose became those show management companies and the associations. And we originally we sent out, we're big on offline uh prospecting when you have the right prospects. Still, we still do that because it stands out even more than ever. But back then we marketed to those exhibit companies the the managers, sorry, the management. And we said, we sent a sugar daddy pop. And we said, Do you feel like a sugar daddy to your exhibitors? That was honed into them and their problem. I had a directory so we could see how big the management companies were, uh, what we could, you know, how much of a an ROI there would be if we worked with them. So we really hyper-targeted that moose and we could speak exactly to their problem. And they're like, yes, I totally feel like a sugar daddy. I'm doing all the work. And they're complaining and they don't, you know, they're they're not doing anything themselves. So I would love to solve that problem. So we actually, you know, could that's the point, right? You can totally speak to one

Define Your Ideal Customer: The Moose

SPEAKER_00 12:35

person in their problem.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Well, what I love is that the people that were working the booths, setting up the booths and things like that, they didn't care. So you were able to identify that you weren't going to solve their problem, right? Because they didn't think they had one. For them, they thought it was the organizer, right? And so if you had spent all that time marketing to those, to the people that ran the booths, you'd be back as the as muffler mama, right? Um, potentially. And understanding that and their motivations is just so, so important and powerful.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

And I think just too many people overlook that. I just took a note because it just reminds me if you're B2B, if you can help your customers, customer, man, you are home free. You know, it's it's just giving them the opportunity to win more business. So it's really talk about the transformation or the result, uh, those kinds of things. If you say, you know what, I'm gonna help you help your customers. You can get more customers, happier customers in the exhibit industry, it's huge to keep re-signing, you know, signing people up every year. So if they leave and there's churn, that is just a huge hassle. So if you can keep your exhibitors happy and show them how they can sell more, then you know, we really we hit a gold mine there. We really did. Nobody had approached it like that before. And the exhibit managed companies, the associations and management, we got such a huge response. And we said, okay, here, and we gave them a free little program. It was recorded on how we can teach your exhibitors, those people you just talked about, to do a better job so that they get a better ROI and that show management doesn't have to do all the work. So insightful.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

But the only way you know that is by identifying your target. You probably start started with potentially thinking that it might be the trade, the people working the booths, right? And then you identified that they didn't really care. Right. And so it takes time, it takes effort, it takes talking to people for whatever reason. People don't want to do that. But anyway, I loved one of the things that you said, which was physical offline mail. Offline anything stands out nowadays. And it stands out more than I think anything else. Even though you get a ton of mail at your house, maybe you don't get it at your office again, depending on who your target is. It does stand out. People touch every piece and they don't necessarily touch every piece of electronic. And I think that that is so, so key and so important to keep in mind and think about, right? Especially like with your book and stuff like that. Again, they have something physical that they can just take with them and and keep you top of mind, which is just which is awesome. Okay. So what is one thing that you've seen people not doing, not doing enough of when they're working to try and be uncopyable? Do they need to start with a target or are they starting with themselves? And have they defined that?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

One thing that popped into my mind, and hopefully help me get back to the question if I get off. But we worked with a client not too long ago that started out with the wrong moose. They thought I'll it was a cybersecurity company. And so they chose water utilities as the prime target. It's like this is just, you know, ripe for being, you know, you know, hacked, the water supply system. So they're like, wow, this is a great moose. But when they started marketing to them and really researching them, they realized that the people that worked in the water utilities, mostly men, were getting ready to retire and they weren't motivated. When you talked about the people working in the trade show booth, they, you know, they were like checked out. So they actually switched to a different moose and they

Messaging That Targets One Buyer

SPEAKER_00 16:45

actually went into the lawyer market attorneys, and they became a great moose. So, you know, you also have to be flexible. You might not hit it every time. Now, if you've been, you know, you already have an established business and clientele. A great thing to do is to look at your customers who are giving you the best experience and the best volume, best ROI, long-term relationships. So um I think I'm trying to remember now how this relates to your question. What are people not doing?

SPEAKER_02 17:17

I think are they not doing enough research on their moose? Are they not spending enough time on defining who they are and what they want to do? Where are you finding the the biggest issue, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah, I think well, you have to define, of course, who you are and what you offer. You know, we talk about the the four seasons versus the motel six. So you've got something that you're offering, and those can be right for everyone. So of course, you have to think about what you offer, what you do. I talked to somebody that said she wants to start like food co-ops and and she has this whole idea. Well, I'm I asked her the big question, who are your moose? So it's great to have an idea and something that you offer, and but you have to make sure it works for somebody. You have to have a moose, a specific moose that you know will be interested, willing to pay for it. So, you know, you can talk to people, you know, think about your own clients. Um, you of course with AI, you can do lots of research to see uh what people, what their problems are, what their interests are. As I mentioned, the trade show market. You really, the time you spend up front doing that is so valuable. And we use lots of offline as we're talking about. Well, you can't just send offline to a million people. You know, when we send what we call a shock and awe package, it's a big investment. But if we're gonna land a client that will give us a million dollars over the next, you know, how many years, it's worth it. So really find out about your moose and their potential. You know, you might think, oh, they could buy what we have. Well, how much of that can you buy? Because again, the 80-20 rule, you want to go after the smaller percent that will really represent the most volume. So I think one of the mistakes I see people make is evaluating a moose without really thinking dollars and cents. You know, it's not just can they use the product? Would they like the product? Be, you know, strategic. Use strategery, as George George Bush said one time, George W. Bush. Uh, strategery is really important because, you know, I became the number one muffler salesperson back in the day, muffler mama. And a lot of what I did is just really uh thinking this all through. Who will have the biggest impact in my territory? As I said, I'm selling through distribution. I want to help their customers. And so it's just all about, you know, not just picking the low-hanging fruit. The low-hanging fruit might not be the best fruit. It might go rotten, it might get bad fast. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 19:59

It does. It does. I think that there's just so much to gain here. So if you're watching or listening, start thinking about who your moose is and are you targeting the wrong one? Because uh you could have a lot of business, right? Not a lot of profitable business, or maybe the wrong kind of business that you don't want and you want to evolve. You just might be targeting the wrong moose. And I think that it's always good, especially here in the first quarter of the year, to really rethink and just realign and make sure that you are headed

Offline Outreach That Stands Out

SPEAKER_02 20:35

where you want to go. And if you're not, I'd say a lot of it has to do with starting with your ideal customer and then going back to your offers, right? You have an offer and you know like what style you want to be. Um, but maybe your ideal customer doesn't necessarily want that. So maybe you need to make a tweak, right? Not that you necessarily have to revolutionize everything, but maybe it's a tweak, right? And there's just so much opportunity just thinking about that. And I think be the be uncopyable brand that you have is just so powerful. And I think it's just something that people really need to think about. Because if you're not different, then you're the same as everybody else. And then why should we hire you?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Right. We didn't really talk about branding, but that's a whole, you know, very, very critical, you know, part of this whole thing is how do they see you as being different? Because, you know, take network marketing as the ultimate example. You're selling the same exact thing as everyone else. So your product and your service is really only a small part of what you're selling. Because, you know, we've taken clients away from other vendors that maybe offer pretty much the same thing, but not like we do. It's not like we do. And it might be hey, we'll be the easiest speaker that you've ever worked with, or I'll make you look good, or You know, whatever your branding promise is, that's all important too. And so when you have that moose, then you can speak, like you said, to your donors. You can speak specifically to you as a donor. So that's why clarifying your moose is so important. Your messaging can just really hit. And you can send them a big offline package, grab their attention, show them you're different, and say, let's have a conversation. And they'll say, Absolutely, I've never seen anything like this.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Amazing. And I love it. And I think that everybody who's watching or listening, you need to start thinking about your moose. And if you have the right one, this has been amazing, Kay. Thank you so much for your time today. But before I let you go, I have to ask you the question that I ask all of my guests. And that is that this show is called Imperfect Marketing because marketing is anything but a perfect science. What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned?

SPEAKER_00 22:50

I think it relates really to what we've talked about, the moose, that too many people, it's like going for uh tactics before strategy. You know, one of my clients said, Oh, we're gonna do a mailing. I'm like, well, you know, what why? Who are you gonna mail to and what's your goal and what's your purpose? So I think that thinking about your ma your moose for sure, and then letting go of the temptation to just do something, to just send out something, to to follow a tactic. So really be strategic about how you approach this whole thing. You'll be so much more successful, better closing rate, more sales, more fun, more enjoyable for both you and your customer. I like to have fun.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Well, and I think happier is is a big piece of it too. I mean, I think it's underrated. So um, I think that that is again very important so that you like getting up in the morning. Well, thank you, Kay, so much again for joining me. Thank you all for tuning in or listening. Kay had me on her podcast back in December. And so we'll have a link to that in the show notes too. Be sure to check it out. I love the way she does it. She's got episodes and then bonus episodes with her guests, just really cool ideas that I might be like co-opting over here into mine essentially.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Um, because

Avoiding The Wrong Moose

SPEAKER_00 24:10

I think I give a plug for my little giveaway. Yes. Oh, yes, please do. I I do a lot of people say, Well, how do I start being uncopyable? And there are so many ways because you are uncopyable, but you have to message that. You have to package it, communicate it. So if you go to beuncopyable.com slash action-steps, you'll get 25 ideas where you can start with any of them. One is better than none, five is better than one. So whatever. Just start, get started uh establishing your your unique difference, what makes you uncopyable.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Fantastic. We'll also put that in the show notes. So again, thank you all for tuning in wherever you're listening or watching. If you learned something today, and I really hope that you did, it would really help me out if you would rate and subscribe wherever you're listening or watching. Do that, do that now, do it now. Do it right now. Yes. And thank you again so much. Have a great rest of your day.