How to Hear More Yeses Using the Science of Persuasion

Why People Don't Decide: The Science of Ethical Persuasion with Patrick Van Der Burght

Have you ever presented a great idea, made a compelling offer, or shared a logical argument only to hear... nothing?

Many people assume a lack of action means someone said "no." But what if they simply didn't make a decision?

In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, Kendra Corman welcomes back persuasion expert Patrick Van Der Burght to explore the science behind how people actually make decisions and why understanding that process can dramatically improve your communication, marketing, sales, leadership, and business results.

Patrick is a Founding Member of the Cialdini Institute, a Cialdini Certified Trainer and Coach, business partner of Dr. Robert Cialdini, and author of How to Hear Yes More Often. Drawing on decades of research and real-world experience, he explains why most decisions are made intuitively rather than logically and how businesses can ethically influence outcomes without manipulation.

Together, Kendra and Patrick discuss:

• The difference between System 1 and System 2 thinking

• Why logical arguments alone often fail to persuade

• The hidden cost of customer indecision

• The Seven Universal Principles of Persuasion

• Practical ways to apply persuasion in presentations, marketing, sales, and leadership

• How reciprocity, social proof, authority, liking, unity, consistency, and scarcity influence behavior

• Why ethical persuasion builds long-term trust and loyalty

• Common mistakes businesses make when trying to influence decisions

• How to communicate value without sounding pushy

• The dangers of manufactured scarcity and misleading marketing tactics

One of the biggest takeaways from this conversation is that influence isn't about convincing people to do something they don't want to do. It's about understanding how people naturally make decisions and communicating in ways that help them confidently move forward when your solution aligns with their needs.

Whether you're a business owner, marketer, salesperson, leader, speaker, or entrepreneur, this episode offers practical insights you can start applying immediately.

Be sure to listen to Patrick's previous appearance on Imperfect Marketing (Episode 337) for even more examples and strategies from the world of ethical persuasion.

Connect with Patrick Van Der Burght

Patrick Van Der Burght is a Founding Member of the Cialdini Institute, Cialdini Certified Trainer and Coach, and author of How to Hear Yes More Often. Since 2000, he has helped organizations and professionals apply the science of ethical persuasion to improve communication, influence, leadership, and business performance.

Website: https://ethicalpersuasion.com.au/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-van-der-burght/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@ethicalpersuasion

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#Persuasion #Marketing #BusinessGrowth #Leadership #Sales #Communication #Influence #Entrepreneurship #CustomerPsychology #MarketingStrategy

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Transcript

Welcome To Imperfect Marketing

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, I'm Kendra Corman. If you're a coach, consultant, or marketer, you know marketing is far from a perfect science. And that's why this show is called Imperfect Marketing. Join me and my guests as we explore how to grow your business with marketing tips and, of course, lessons learned along the way. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing. I'm your host, Kendra Corman, and today we are continuing a conversation from a couple months ago with Patrick here. If you want to go back and listen to the original one, it's 337, but he will recap some of that for us. And we're going to talk about really applying the science of human decision making. So he assists businesses and professionals to be ethically more persuasive. And he is a business partner of Dr. Taldini, is a New York Times bestselling author who published the first edition of the Influence book back in 1984, which has sold over 7 million copies. It's regularly found at the top of recommended business books lists. It was in the Forbes article, six timeless books for 2025. And it was in the number one position, which is pretty cool. Patrick has been teaching ethical persuasion, which I love that is ethical persuasion, right? That's that's a big keyword. There is the ethical piece since 2000 and is a founding member of the Chalvini certified trainer and coach and author of the book, How to Hear Yes More Often, which is what we were talking about before. So let's go ahead and jump back in. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining me again.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Thanks for asking me back, uh, Kendra. I know this is a big topic, a fascinating topic. And uh I hope people who have uh listened to the first episode are all excited, eyes wide open, with oh my goodness, is this how it works and is it so easy to implement? And I hope I got some uh some benefit already from the strategies that we shared last time. And if if you know listeners today have missed that episode, you definitely want to go back.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

The link is in the show notes to that episode, which is episode 337. But why don't you refresh our memories a little bit about the science of decision making and the seven universal principles of persuasion?

SPEAKER_01 2:18

When it comes to decision making, there's actually a science. And to uh to condense that uh to something short, when it comes to the brain, there are two parts of

System One Runs Most Decisions

SPEAKER_01 2:30

the brain when it comes to decision making. System one, which is our intuitive part of the brain, and we have system two, which is our logical, rational part of the brain. And so the rational part of the brain is associated with conscious thinking, conscious thought. And system one, the intuitive part of the brain, is more linked to unconscious thought, works automatically, and it works largely on shortcuts. And so the problem that we have with in terms of people trying to convince other people about what it is they're proposing, um, and that that doesn't need to be sales related, although, of course, it's very important in sales. It can also be related to negotiations, colleagues, uh, people higher in the hierarchy than you are, lower in the hierarchy, um, staff members, government, council, you're talking to your children, right? You're also negotiating there, trying to get people to perform a certain behavior, is trying to get them to follow the safety instructions or safety guidelines in your business, all these sorts of things. You're trying to convince people to do a certain behavior. And so science is very clear on the fact that it is the system one that is in control of the largest part of decisions. About 95% of decisions are made by the intuitive brain. Now, here comes the problem. When we don't know the science, and when we sit down and think, okay, how am I going to convince or persuade or get these people on board with what I'm trying to share with them, how am I going to do that? You're using conscious thought. And so you're using system two. And so when you're in that mode, you tend to come up with arguments or information that would need to appeal to system two in your audience. Things like if you do this, it's good for the environment. If you do this, you'll save money. If you do this, you know, we've got very qualitative products or services. That's system two information. And our audience, which 95% of its decisions are made by using system one, the intuitive part of the brain, they are overloaded with information and decisions that they need to make. And so when you turn up with your logical, perfectly rational reasons why they should listen to you, why they should buy into your message, you're actually creating more uncertainty. And they then decide, or a large amount of people then decide not to decide. So let's say, you know, if we take it to a sales example, if you if you make a thousand pitches, right, you might get a certain amount of yeses out of those thousand pitches, probably a small amount of yeses. And then the rest are people that didn't move forward with you. And most people would assume, well, if if that small amount was yeses, then the rest of them are no's. Well, to some extent, we would argue that a large amount of those no's were actually indecision. They decided not to make a decision. And had you provided information that their intuitive part of the brain, their system one part of the brain, could use to make a decision more quickly that was in line with their values. We don't need to lie or cheat, right? We raise information that's in line with their values. Had we given any of that information, we would have dramatically increased the chances that people say yes to us. And so by not doing that, we're constantly losing out on yeses, successes, moving towards our goals when other people are involved. And it's unnecessary if we just had raised the information that they really wanted and needed to hear from you, you would have been able to get the success that was always yours to have. It was on the table, but without it, it's slipping through your fingers.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

As we move forward with this, right? We're armed with these with this knowledge, the system one, the system two, right? Um, how to move people forward? Um, we've talked about the seven universal principles of persuasion. How do we leverage that? So, you know, whether it's speaking, website, I'll say dealer's choice, right? So whatever you want to start with, um, right, how do we how do we take this information and start to use it?

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Sure. Um, maybe before

Why Logic Creates Buyer Indecision

SPEAKER_01 7:10

we dive into, let's run quickly past the seven principles. As you, as Kendra mentioned, there are seven universal principles of persuasion. And we call them universal because they work in all languages, all cultures, and all countries, which is exceedingly more valuable and powerful because our cultures are intermixed and it's so easy to do business with people in other countries. Um, so this was something that works everywhere. And so there's seven principles, and all these words you've heard before, but you probably don't know how to activate them, and you don't know how to amplify these pieces of information. Even people that have read Dr. Cialny's book, they often fall into the trap of thinking, oh yeah, I know how that works, but they don't have the application skill of or confidence or habit to look for these opportunities in every communication setting that they find themselves in. So they still end up losing out.

unknown 8:04

All right.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

So what are these seven principles? Reciprocity. So people feel an obligation to give back the same type of behavior that was first given to them, right? And in the context of compliance, people have a tendency to say yes to people that they feel they owe something to. So, in short, we want to look at how we can genuinely help other people, right? And by doing that, they think that we're wonderful and great because we are, right? And because of that, there's an increased likelihood that when we come with a request, hey, we've got a webinar on, or hey, come to this presentation, that we get more compliance. Liking is another principle. So we like people that are like us, we like people who like us, and we like people who like us and say so. So there's sort of three three levels there, if you want. So we like people that are like us, means similarities. So if you can uncover similarities that you have in common with other people, um, bring that genuinely to the surface, right? Then people like you more. You've sat in an airport and you talk to somebody, um, right, and uh, I don't know, you're you're into the same hobby or something, right? Then all of a sudden you like each other more. Like me, I'm I'm a sucker for motorcycle riders, right? I've got a uh a big Harley that uh me and my wife love to uh get on, and um, she's got her own bike as well, but you know, we go for rides. If I'm talking to someone and they say, oh yeah, I ride motorcycle, it's like we're already halfway to being best friends. Um, so we like similarity. We like people that like us, especially those people in sales that are listening to this, should pay attention. You've traditionally been taught that if you're trying to get to convince people about your product or services or your idea, that you should do what you can so that people like you. Well, that's nice, it's not wrong, but it's not the most powerful. If you're trying to convince me about your services or products, it's nice if I like you. But it's a lot more powerful. I if I get the feeling that you genuinely like me, because if you like me, then I'm safe with you. Even if I don't quite like you or not quite sure about you, if I feel that you like me, I'm safe with you. So more readily um, you know, I can move forward with you. So we need to look for opportunities, information of what we can genuinely appreciate about someone. I I love this part of ethical persuasion because it builds relationships uh and strong ones at that. All right, and then the other people that like us and say so, right? We are suckers for compliments. But there's no need to make them up, you can make come up with genuine compliments. And in my podcast, uh, when I talk about the principle of liking a lot more detail, I've got a little challenge at the end. And that is the very next person that you come across, I don't care who it is, somebody in the parking lot, in an elevator, total stranger. Just look for something you genuinely appreciate and give them a compliment. Could be a handbag, could be a tie, right? And just see the shoulders drop, see the smile appear, and disliking starts building. It's very cool. All right, let's move on. Unity is a feeling of community that we both feel part of. Unity was the last principle Dr. Cialdini introduced in 2015. Um so it's about identifying a community that we both feel part of, and then let's bring that to awareness. Social proof. People follow the actions of others, especially when they are numerous, when they are similar to us, and when we are uncertain. Right? That's why online reviews are so important.

The Seven Principles Explained Simply

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Uh, I think it's 98% of online shoppers say that online reviews, detailed online reviews, are an important factor when deciding what and where to buy. So we want to share what other people have done in relation to this opportunity that we're presenting. And if you think the reviews are great, then congratulations, right? But there are so much more to social proof, so many more strategies that if you think you you shouldn't do business without testimonials and reviews, well, you are doing without lots and lots of other components of social proof that can be equally as powerful. Authority, we respect, we follow the advice of other people who genuinely have more knowledge and wisdom on a particular topic. We can't know everything. And so it makes sense to follow people who have advice. So that's why bringing in justifications of your arguments with what a professor has said or what a doctor has says or what a study has says, that works really well, right? It shows other people here, there's a whole bunch of doctors that looked at this, and you should take this, what I'm presenting, seriously. So that helps. But you are also an authority, you also have knowledge and expertise. And getting that across to your audience, that's not as straightforward. What you cannot do is when you're face to face with someone, go, hi, my name's Patrick. Let me tell you the 35 reasons why you should listen to me today. Right? People go in their subconscious, you're full of yourself, right? And so you lose authority and you lose unliking. So there's other ways to do that. But go back to the other episode, we dive a little deeper. Um, then the principle of consistency. People want to stay true to past actions and behaviors that they've done before. So by raising into awareness what they've done before or said before, that can help you get more yeses. And you can create the opportunity for them to reveal what's important to them so that you can link what it is you're proposing to what they've told you is important. And then lastly, number seven is uh, or in a particular order, uh scarcity that we've all heard of and we've all also fallen victim to, right? People value things more that are less available, that are rare, or are dwindling in availability. So if we have genuine scarcity in the situation, if you, you know, if you're a health practitioner and you can only take on 10 new patients in the next quarter, well, that's natural scarcity. You should let people know I can only take 10 more patients this quarter. Or if you only have five of these items left, then you should tell people there's only five of these and this size and this color in stock, and I can't get any more for another six weeks. Right? That's genuine scarcity, and that allows people to take that into consideration and they're more likely to move more quickly.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Now, how do we apply that?

SPEAKER_01 14:52

So let's think of a speaking situation. So uh if you are standing in front of an audience, then and there's a common misconception, by the way, there's seven principles, but you don't want to use all of them at the same time, as in in the same communication. When you use all of the principles, people start realizing you're trying to convince them. And so it might actually backfire on you. So you probably pick two or three principles to use. And which ones that depends on the situation and where you are in your relationship with people. It's too advanced to go into that now, but we don't want to use all of them all the time. So we can go through the list. So, reciprocity, how could you use reciprocity with an audience? Well, how can we help this audience genuinely? Maybe we've got some information that we can share with them. Um, something that doesn't necessarily benefit us, but it's to help them, to educate them. That could be done verbally. You might have a handout that you give to people, right? But it is important that you communicate properly that this is something you didn't need to do, right? But this is what I wanted to do for you, to give you a little bit extra information to walk away with today, right? So it's important you verbalize, not in a, you know, I gave you some information and now you owe me, right? Not like that either, but in a subtle way that you you want to bring it to awareness. Otherwise, people think that it might be an entitlement. This is something you always do, right? I hear that a lot from, for example, architects, right? They get a new client and they they you know they want to pitch for for working for them. And so they come up with three designs for this building and they look at all these details, do all this homework, go deeper than any architect would do at that stage. And they give all this time and information to give them this proposal, and then often people, you know, they don't appreciate how much actually work went into it because it wasn't communicated properly. Liking. So, well, you can certainly pay a compliment to who it is you're talking to, right? Um, so great to see you all here. I'm always excited to uh you know to get together with the people who are interested in whatever it is: cars, motorcycles, complimentary health, um, the environment, whatever your topic is about. It seems everybody uh got in here nice and early, or it might be after the break. Uh great, thank you. Uh I hope you had a lovely, uh, lovely lunch and invigorated for what comes next. Uh, it's wonderful that you all made it back to your seats in time so we can we can start on time, right? Lovely little genuine compliment, right? We like those who like us and say so. So these little things can can help us with building liking. Unity. So if we have a community that we all feel part of, and the word family highlights this feeling of community, and that doesn't just apply to blood relatives. You can use that word family to sort of bring up that same sort of feeling. So if you're talking to, you know, 60 or 100 of your staff members, because you're presenting a new direction the company is going in or something, right? You can bring up to the up in awareness that, hey, it's great we're all here, you know, we're all you know one big family here at ABC Company, right? Um, and so we're bringing into awareness that yes, as a company, we have a community that we are a part of. And so that's a way to activate unity, for example. Unity is also about co-creation, doing things together. So instead of just pitching my ideas, if, and it depends on the situation, if I can work with my audience to come up with some ideas of what might be important in this new product that we're developing or this new service that we want to put together for our clientele, right? And get them working with me while I'm on stage or walking through the room, right? Of a whiteboard or something, take notes. Now you're co-creating this product, and people will be far more loyal to it and also each other within that uh within that space. Social proof. So, you know, again, depending on the situation, you might be able to bring up social proof of what other people have done in relation to the opportunity that you're presenting. Um so you could have, you know, written testimonials. Now, don't put all essays on a slide, nobody's gonna read those, but you could highlight particular words or even lift those words out of the testimonial and say, you know, Kendra said that it was really a fascinating interview with Patrick. It was so good that she had to uh invite him back for a second interview, right? So if I was looking to get on another show somewhere, I could use the opinion of Kendra uh as social proof. You could also invite people that, and sometimes you know, you have customers that are so thankful to you for what you've done for them. They might be willing to turn up at an event that you have to people who are yet to use your services, and they might be willing to come on stage and say a few words and say, Well, I've used Bob's services last year, and I was in this situation, and then this happened, the team was great, and the outcome was wonderful, blah, blah. Right? So now you have actual real people sharing those testimonials. As a little amplifier, if you're if you know you're talking to, let's say, an audience of women, then the testimonials you share can be from anybody and be social proof,

Using Persuasion In A Talk

SPEAKER_01 20:35

and it would benefit your situation. But if it was testimonials or social proof from other women, your audience would relate to it more. It's an amplifier, so it will work even more strongly. If you're talking to your sales department and you share testimonials from your staff members in the accounts department, it's still social proof, still nice, still good. But if you had testimonials from other people in other sales departments of your business, that would be more stronger, more effective using that with your sales teams. Authority, uh classic with authority is that we get introduced before we start speaking. So we need someone else to tell the audience about our credentials because we can't really do it ourselves. Consistency. Um, you could ask an audience to raise their hand and express an opinion about what's important to them. Right? You might go, um, you know, who here has ever um been annoyed about finding rubbish on the street? Right. And probably everybody puts their hands up. Now, when later your pitch is about them, I don't know, cooperating with a cleanup day or something, right? The fact that they've actively all raised their hands now you've allowed them to make an active statement to which your proposal is in line. With so it's harder to say no. It's like somebody says, Hey, um, you're an adventurous person, aren't you? And they go, Yeah, of course I am. So great. Well, we're going camping in two weeks. You want to come with us? Right? It's now harder to say no because you just said you are adventurous. And then scarcity. So if there's anything that is limited in terms of you know quantity or time, but also uniquenesses is also scarcity. If I can't get this particular thing anywhere else, then that starts scarcity. So again, in an audience, you could scare that share that as well.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

I think it's fantastic. Like again, looking at those um at those seven universal principles, right? They're not hard to apply, from what it sounds like, right? The hard part is training yourself to be paying attention to whether or not you're using it, right? And when is the appropriate time and not to Sandler sales training always talks about spilling all your candy in the lobby, right? Like giving it all at once so that then people don't really trust you, right? Very interesting. One question that I did have that I wanted, so let's talk about the architect, right? So he did all of this extra stuff that should have value because he was so excited about the project, right? And I think we've all done that before. How does he communicate the value then to the person? Like, hey, I'm so excited about this project. I went a little bit further than I normally do. And do you say, like, I spent six hours on this? Or do you say pretty close? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

You know, let's say they're coming back for the appointment where you're going to share the designs that you've come up with. Um, and so you might really excited uh, you know, with the opportunity to potentially uh to potentially work with you. Now, of course, you know, uh, we do our due diligence in in terms of research in the area and local uh possibilities in terms of what building style could be erected. Um, and so I've come up with three designs for your consideration. And um, as I was doing this, and I don't, you know, don't necessarily always do this, but I thought in your case, it might, you know, you might appreciate the fact that I could give you a little bit more information about the different building materials we could use on the facade of the building. Of course, I'm making this stuff up, right? I actually spent a good hour and a half two hours researching the different types of stone that you said you you liked. And it was very interesting. And here are my findings, right? Now I've in a in a non-pushy, non-sort of you now owe me sort of feeling, I've brought to the surface that I I did go beyond what was expected of me. And I

How To Show Extra Effort

SPEAKER_01 24:55

did invest an extra hour, hour and a half, two hours into researching this particular thing. And now your audience can genuinely have this feeling like, wow, like, you know, you know, you you really went out of your way for us. And so if you don't word that gently in the right way, then they could think you do this for everyone. And then it's not special, then it's not extra. And, you know, they might appreciate the fact you came up with three designs, but all that extra effort you put in is not getting you that that that activation of the principle of reciprocity that was in that situation for you to have.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

Well, and it's you can't blame people for not knowing what you don't tell them, right? So for them, they may think that, oh, that's what they do all the time, or oh, that took you no time at all, right? You know, not doing it in a pushy way, but doing it in a way that that makes people understand that you went an extra step for them, right? Makes them appreciate, probably makes them like you even more too, right? And it plays into some of these other pieces, right? Um, along the way. Uh one more question um before we get into our last question, because that's all we have time for um today, but um scarcity. There's a lot of people who make fake scarcity. And I get that, you know, yes, you might be only able to take 10 people, but if you sold zero, you know, um, do you really you can't really say that tickets are going fast, right? So um so what are your thoughts on scarcity when it feels a little bit manufactured for lack of a better term?

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Yeah, and thank you for bringing that up. And that that brings us back again to this whole concept of ethical. Research shows that if you use persuasion science uh in an unethical way, you may produce short-term benefit, but it tends to produce long-term disaster. Because in the in the cycle of business, you get found out, right? People start to work out that you were not acting in good faith. And so, with in a world where we have so many alternatives for you, right? There's so many people that want to help you with this particular product or service, their choice is infinite almost. It's very easy for them to move away, and they do. And so if you get caught out for unethical practices, it results in credibility craters, right? So research shows that if we use it ethically, it produces short-term results and long-term success, and it builds loyal relationships. So, yeah, scarcity is um certainly online, uh, one of the most abused principles. Um, so are testimonials, by the way, because it's very easy to make up

Scarcity Without Losing Trust

SPEAKER_01 27:50

testimonials, right? You can pay someone five bucks and they'll make a video recording for you. So it's tempting maybe to do that, but what we need to do, we need to know the science, which is not that hard to learn, so we can be a detective and actually uncover what is genuinely there in the situation. So, yeah, you perfect example, right? If you've got 10 spots available, it's genuine scarcity to say, hey, I can only take 10 people, or we can only take 10 people in this course. What's not ethical is hey, tickets are going fast, right? If you haven't sold any yet. Now, of course, if you're switched on and and you know pay attention to this sort of stuff, once tickets do start moving faster, then you can communicate that ethically. Um with websites, and uh it's one of the things that annoys me to no end, especially supplements um seem to be uh fall victim to that. You go on a website and then uh you think about buying something, it's like, oh, we're low on stock, right? And oh, uh, we have a sale on, and it's about to expire in two hours and 16 minutes, right? And they give you a little counter on the top, right? Um, and so so they're loading on this scarcity, and I'm sure you've done that before. You're sort of mid-shopping, you get distracting, you forget about the whole thing. And next week, um, I'm I'm a sucker for having like a hundred tabs open on my browsers, right? Next week you come back to that same tab and you hit the refresh button. And guess what? There's still the two hours, but now 11 minutes left on the sale, and it's still low on stock, right? This this gives you a bad feeling about this business. As in, well, goodness, I mean, if I can't trust you with what you're communicating to me, how on earth can I trust you about the benefits that you say this product or service has, or your customer service, how you would look after me if something went wrong with this product and I needed your assistance. So it's it's very tricky. Um, it's not tricky, it's it's it's risky to go down that path. And especially now when you know people making videos, classic examples of supermarkets, right? Research that figured out that if you put a bright-colored label on a product, let me tell you the story, right? So they went into the supermarket and they just at random just put bright-colored tags with the price on particular products chosen at random. And then you know the sales would happen that day, and then in the evening they take them all off, and the next morning they put them on another so many random products. And at the end of the experiment, they looked at how that impacted sales. Right? So the product wasn't any cheaper, it just had a bright label on it. The result of that was that sales increased by a hundred percent because we associate a bright label with a sale, a discount, and good value. So there's quite a number of supermarkets and chemists, I'd have a chemist near me, they've got nearly bright colored labels on everything. And if you just lift them up, it gets exactly the same price underneath it, right? And that's deceptive. And so we're trying to take advantage of people. Now, there's so many videos of those sorts of businesses being caught out for that behavior, and that ends up on social media, and so that can happen really quickly, so it can erode the trust that you've spent so much time and money on building in your community, and now you get found out for those practices, and there's no need to have those practices, just learn the science and use the elements that are genuinely there that people actually appreciate hearing from you.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

You gotta be careful because in today's cancel culture, there's just so much that can wipe you out, and your reputation is so important and so valuable. So I want to thank you, um, Patrick. We're a little bit over, so uh we're gonna have to wrap up, unfortunately. So much great information, so much useful content, right? So start thinking about how you're going to use the seven, all right, now I'm gonna say it, the the seven universal, right, uh principles of persuasion. Gotta check my notes for that. Um, in your business, right? But always be using it ethically and preserving your brand, your integrity, and you know, your values overall, right? And it's just so important. Um, if you want to hear Patrick's lesson, marketing lesson learned, definitely go back and check out episode 337, where we chatted about it and he shared a really cool story about scuba diving equipment. And you will definitely get a lot out of that. Hopefully, you got a lot out of this episode. Please be sure to connect with Patrick down below in the show notes with his company. And if you want to learn more, be sure again to uh reach out and connect with him. Until next time, thank you so much for tuning in. Have a great rest of your day.