Admit You're DTF - It's Okay, We Understand!

Are terms like "DTF" or "friends with benefits" shaping the swinger lifestyle, or are they masking deeper dynamics? 

Are swinger just hiding behind the safety of the "friends" label? In this video, we explore the complexities of forming friendships within the lifestyle, discuss the challenges and stigmas tied to "DTF" and "FWB," and uncover how labels impact relationships. Whether you're navigating ENM, curious about swinging, or just seeking insight, this episode has something for everyone.

🔑 Key Moments:

• 00:00:00 - Introduction: Is "DTF" a bad thing?
• 00:00:26 - Aren't we all DTF?
• 00:03:00 - The stigma of being DTF in the lifestyle
• 00:07:15 - Defining "friends with benefits" vs. true friendship
• 00:08:43 - Stigma and Shame surrounding sex
• 00:10:05 - Urban myths - They're muscles so exercise them!
• 00:12:30 - Navigating challenges in FWB relationships
• 00:18:45 - Are labels hiding deeper truths about swingers?
• 00:24:00 - Practical tips for forming meaningful connections
• 00:34:00 - The Friend Zone
• 00:39:03 - Wrap Up and Questions For You

Transcript

0:00

[Ed] He's being DTF, a bad thing, is describing yourself as friends with benefits or acceptable.[Ed] Are you perpetually in the friend zone?[Ed] Do you think swingers hide behind these labels, but they're secretly all DTF?[Phoebe] I don't know.[Phoebe] I tend to think so, and here's why.[Unknown] The dictionary definition says that DTF is an indication of willingness for[Phoebe] a sexual encounter.[Unknown] Well, that sounds like all swingers, aren't we all willing?[Ed] Isn't that the whole point that we're all willing to have sex with somebody else?[Unknown] Yes.[Unknown] 100%.[Phoebe] So in this swinger community, DTF is thought of as differently.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] I think the definition that people have in their minds is more a willingness to have sex[Ed] with anybody who's breathing.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Unknown] He's in the bull.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Like it to the bad room and get down to business.[Ed] Anybody, anywhere, anytime.[Unknown] Yes.[Phoebe] And that is the furthest from...[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] I think we can break down some DTF examples of how it's probably a little different than[Ed] that understanding of it.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] Let's just say how DTF is beneficial.[Phoebe] Talking can be awkward.[Phoebe] A lot of talking can be awkward.[Phoebe] It can be laborious.[Phoebe] Maybe you don't know what to say.[Unknown] You slip into the, you know, some kids soccer game or something, and then you get nervous[Phoebe] because you're like, oh, I'm not supposed to talk about that.[Phoebe] Right.[Guest] Keep it sexy.[Phoebe] Keep it sexy.[Phoebe] Don't go into politics.[Phoebe] Don't talk about the kids.[Phoebe] Like what are you supposed to connect on, right?[Unknown] Right.[Unknown] DTF also saves time.[Unknown] And DTF is always new, exciting, and novel.[Phoebe] Not to say that friends with benefits can't be that way.[Ed] And I think that that novelty aspect of kind of walking into a party and being open[Ed] to sacks with anyone really does kind of open up that NRE that hunt the chase, that sense[Ed] of kind of conquest that you get when you kind of walk into a nightclub and you see[Ed] somebody who's sexy across the room and you go, I wonder if they'd be interested in[Ed] having sex.[Ed] It's that hookup culture.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] That goes back to your dating life and what it was like to be in your 20s.[Ed] Absolutely.[Phoebe] Right.[Ed] Never met them before.[Ed] Haven't had a conversation.[Phoebe] Do I have game enough to connect with that person that they'd be willing to have?[Ed] Have sex.[Unknown] Yes.[Phoebe] Now, we have the hookup culture and the hookup culture is a very empowering attitude towards[Phoebe] sex.[Unknown] Sure.[Phoebe] But it does come with a stigma.[Unknown] There absolutely is some level of stigma in the swire community towards DTF.[Ed] At least from the perspective of the people who need to be friends first.[Ed] It's the other side of the coin.[Ed] It's the dark side, if you will, of swinging.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] There's that devaluing of this pursuit.[Unknown] Yeah.[Unknown] I think the way I would describe it is there's a more noble pursuit of being friends with[Ed] someone, really getting to know them, bonding with them, going to chilly cookouts with them,[Unknown] that makes it not dirty, that makes it not cheap or easy.[Phoebe] But that, that's interesting.[Phoebe] So do you think people label themselves as friends with benefits because the DTF is dirty[Phoebe] and they're already doing something dirty and secretive and I think it's a little bit[Ed] of a buffer from that stigma, that easy, the slut-shaming aspect of what DTF is.[Guest] Interesting.[Guest] I wonder if that has something to do with it.[Ed] Let's dig into that a little bit.[Ed] Friends with benefits.[Unknown] Okay.[Ed] Let's say that that is a more noble pursuit.[Ed] Let's say that that's the better way to go, right?[Ed] Because just being a slut and having sex with anybody is just bad.[Ed] How do you qualify or quantify friendship?[Ed] What is friendship at a house party?[Unknown] Right.[Ed] You just met somebody.[Unknown] Do you have to wait till the second date to have sex with somebody?[Ed] Do you know, is this a five-minute conversation or is this like you've seen them at a event[Ed] after event after event and six months later than you can finally have sex?[Guest] Right.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] If you go to a desire resort and you're there for a whole week, do you have to wait till[Ed] Thursday night before you leave or is it okay to have sex with somebody sooner than that?[Ed] Right.[Ed] And if it's sooner than, are you actually DTF?[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Exactly.[Phoebe] And nobody has that, but everyone's quick to label.[Phoebe] Nobody can define it, but everyone's quick to label it.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] I fully understand that people want an interaction between two individuals to mean more.[Phoebe] And they want to trust you because you are opening your precious relationship to another[Phoebe] couple.[Unknown] And of course, you want them to be respectful and caring towards your spouse or other[Phoebe] significant person.[Ed] I think a lot of the stigma around DTF versus friends with benefits comes down to the[Ed] body count issue and not feeling like a number.[Ed] Right.[Ed] That they actually have a personality and there's a connection with those people.[Ed] And I think a lot of that connection aspect, it's almost an emotional connection.[Phoebe] Right.[Unknown] And we've talked about this before where with a little bit of an emotional connection[Ed] with people, the sex is usually better.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] And it's really more specifically the intimacy with another person.[Phoebe] It's not like you're getting attached to them, but you are sharing a very intimate moment.[Phoebe] There can be some tenderness there.[Phoebe] There can be some, some petting and some cuddling after there's, you know, kind words.[Phoebe] There's sexy things said.[Phoebe] There's all kinds of intimate things that are occurring.[Ed] And I think a lot of the intimacy I think that you and I really enjoy is the kind of[Ed] letting your guard down a little bit and having fun in the bedroom because you feel comfortable[Ed] enough with that person to just be yourself.[Ed] And I think that's another one of those aspects of the friends part is that you can kind[Ed] of hang out with your friends.[Ed] So you're yourself, right?[Ed] You're not putting on a facade.[Ed] You're not putting on this persona of whatever, right?[Unknown] But we have had experiences in the past where we've been in DTF situations and we've left[Phoebe] and asked for people's names afterwards and we've had a really great time.[Phoebe] So and even though we get their contact information, you know, we never hear from them again.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] And this is another big advantage of DTF.[Ed] They got out of the lifestyle.[Ed] Yeah.[Unknown] They tried it once.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] So we would never have the chance to actually become friends with them because over time[Ed] they disappear.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] And that was it.[Ed] That was your one opportunity.[Phoebe] Your one shot opportunity, which is why DTF worked in those situations.[Ed] Absolutely.[Unknown] We've got two hours to get to know somebody and connect with them and then they're out.[Phoebe] Yep.[Phoebe] And we'll go through that whole list of other reasons why DTF really worked for us.[Phoebe] There's also stigmas around women, slut-chaming and body counts.[Phoebe] It's, I think that is pervasive in people's mind still, even though they may not think[Phoebe] about it.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] It's a perception that's in the back of your head.[Phoebe] How women should be and how they should own their sexuality.[Phoebe] When we started swinging, I didn't really step into my own sexuality until we started[Phoebe] swinging.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] And I realized how powerful my sexuality was and I owned that and I could ask for what[Phoebe] I wanted and I could tell people what I liked.[Phoebe] But that, I hadn't, I mean, that that happened when I was in my 40s.[Guest] Yeah.[Phoebe] Late 40s.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] I mean, and I've had a lot of sexual experiences, but the Swinger community really brought that[Ed] out of me and that comfort, that ease of being able to express yourself.[Ed] Yeah.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] And because women are the gas and the brakes, that sense of power that I had to control[Phoebe] my environment was massive and getting comfortable with that power took a hot second.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] And it's interesting.[Unknown] We've watched a couple documentaries recently talking about sex and, you know, looseness.[Ed] If you will, not only from the sociological standpoint, but also from the physiological[Guest] standpoint.[Ed] And it's interesting because there's this misconception that women who have sex all[Ed] the time have loose vaginas.[Ed] Men who have anal sex all the time, this was with men who have sex with men, that the[Ed] incontinence issue and someone brilliantly pointed out that those are muscles.[Unknown] What happens when you exercise a muscle, it gets stronger.[Ed] And therefore, it would actually get tighter.[Ed] So the whole, like, kegel exercise thing, that's exercising those muscles.[Ed] Well, sex can do the same thing.[Ed] Orgasms are a contraction of all of those muscles.[Ed] So having a lot of orgasms, you're working your muscles out.[Ed] It's not getting looser.[Phoebe] I know.[Phoebe] This was just more slight shaming of women.[Phoebe] Right.[Ed] So it's just like, it's a horrible mischaracterization of what sex does to you.[Ed] I think the other kind of mischaracterization that kind of goes with slight shaming is the[Ed] disease factor, right?[Guest] The STIs.[Ed] But if you're practicing safer sex, if you're using condoms, if you're washing between[Ed] partners, if you're doing all the good, swing, or etiquette things to kind of take care[Ed] of yourself in a kind of random environment, you're cutting your risks down significantly.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] I mean, condoms are pretty effective at stopping the transmission of diseases.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] Yes.[Unknown] Most STIs.[Unknown] So it's not 100% not a foolproof, but it's a lot safer than bear backing.[Phoebe] And what's the other term we learned in the other?[Unknown] Oh, yeah.[Unknown] We're watching a TV show, raw dogging, which isn't an older term, but yeah, raw dogging.[Unknown] Well, we should bring that back.[Ed] It just sounds raw.[Phoebe] Not, not do it, but just bring it back.[Ed] Bring the term back.[Unknown] I don't want to do that.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] Only do that with you.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Unknown] Yeah.[Unknown] So some examples of shaming that we've heard about in the lifestyle is someone said to[Unknown] us, they met this woman and they said, well, she said, if you're not an asshole and[Unknown] you avoid saying anything stupid, I'm just going to fuck you.[Guest] We need your help so that your community, the very one you love and have so much fun[Ed] with can also find our show.[Ed] Here's a really easy way to do that.[Ed] If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, hit that follow button and leave us[Unknown] a rating.[Ed] If you're watching on YouTube, subscribe and turn on notifications.[Ed] We can't emphasize enough how much this helps the swing our community and it truly is[Ed] up to you to make that happen.[Ed] It makes a massive difference in whether new listeners can even find us.[Ed] And here's the thing, when someone searches Swinger Podcast, the algorithm doesn't care[Ed] how good our content is or how long we've been around.[Ed] It only cares about ratings and reviews.[Ed] You need to appreciate it and your community will really appreciate it.[Unknown] Thanks for listening.[Ed] Which I think is somewhat reasonable, if you think about it, like you just met somebody,[Ed] you're at a swing or event.[Ed] And in context, if you just said, well, as long as the guy's not an asshole and I'm attracted[Ed] to him, why wouldn't I have sex with them?[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] That seems perfectly reasonable to me.[Ed] It does seem perfectly reasonable to me.[Ed] And I think the evaluation of whether someone is an asshole or not is part of that getting[Ed] to know them thing, which is, in a sense, the one minute to five minute to ten minute[Ed] friendship evaluation, like, could you be friends with this person?[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] They're not an asshole.[Ed] I could get along with them.[Phoebe] And so why would you put your value system on somebody else because, oh, they didn't spend[Phoebe] in a whole hour getting to know them?[Phoebe] Maybe they only need five minutes.[Phoebe] Maybe they just hit it off.[Ed] I mean, everybody's heard of love at first sight, right?[Unknown] Or that whole NRE thing where they're just like across the bar, sparks flying, eye made[Ed] content.[Unknown] Oh, yeah.[Phoebe] Why not?[Phoebe] Why not?[Ed] You're going to go, uh, you know, maybe the next party.[Ed] Oh, they're not there.[Ed] Oh, yeah.[Ed] You're going to miss out.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] So, you know, a lot of people, if they're polite and they're consenting, then they're good[Phoebe] to go.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] Right?[Phoebe] But I do understand a lot of people need more time, you have conversations and things like[Unknown] that.[Ed] I kind of get some people's perspective from the friend's first point of view.[Ed] It kind of goes back to, and this is a term that's being fleshed out more.[Ed] And we're starting to hear it more.[Ed] And that's demisexual.[Ed] That's people who need to have an emotional connection with someone before they have sex[Unknown] with them.[Ed] I kind of get that, especially if that's how you have sexual arousal, like, you're not[Ed] aroused by someone unless you're kind of emotionally connected to them.[Ed] And I get just walking up to somebody that you don't have any kind of emotional connection[Unknown] to them.[Ed] But the question comes back to, how long does it take to build that emotional connection[Ed] that, like, I get this person, I get this person, like, what kinds of things can happen[Unknown] in a conversation into, to then label yourself as only Demi or.[Phoebe] Or satiosexual, where you need that intellectual conversation to stimulate you.[Ed] Right.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] And I think all of us, to a certain degree, are that I'm very, really certain that that's[Ed] a spectrum, and that I certainly am comfortable having sex with random people.[Ed] Like I don't have to know someone for a very long time to have sex with them.[Ed] But I certainly have to be attracted to them.[Ed] And a lot of my attraction has to do with, are they funny?[Ed] Are they gay?[Phoebe] They're gay?[Ed] Maybe they're a little assertive, I kind of like an assertive woman.[Ed] Because it shows that they've got some enthusiasm and some confidence and confidence is sexy,[Ed] right?[Ed] Right.[Ed] And you've got to be able to see those characteristics of a person before you can really[Unknown] build that spark.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] And I get that.[Phoebe] That totally makes sense.[Phoebe] I also think DTF is very situational.[Unknown] So much.[Phoebe] Because your club environment versus your resort environment is going to be completely different.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] The pace is different.[Ed] Yes.[Ed] So a nightclub is definitely, you know, the bar closes at two.[Unknown] Yep.[Ed] So you get to make your moves fast.[Ed] You got to find the people.[Ed] There's a lot of activity in a very small space.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] Time is of the essence.[Phoebe] And the quality of the connection is going to be different because in a club, it's allowed[Phoebe] environment.[Ed] Right.[Phoebe] So you really don't have good conversations.[Ed] You can't.[Ed] You can't have a good conversation.[Phoebe] They're very surface.[Phoebe] What?[Phoebe] What?[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] Huh?[Phoebe] That's so funny.[Unknown] I can't hear them at all.[Unknown] Exactly.[Phoebe] So I could imagine at a resort, it's, well, we've been to a resort.[Phoebe] So yes, we do know you, there are plenty of opportunities over breakfast, lunch, dinner,[Phoebe] etc.[Phoebe] Down by the beach, whatever at the moment.[Ed] You're lounging.[Ed] You go for a walk.[Ed] Yes.[Ed] You're on an excursion with somebody.[Ed] Yes.[Ed] You're bonding over cocoa beans in the woods like I get it.[Unknown] I get it.[Unknown] So looking back now that we've been swingers for 11 plus years, our first experiences were[Phoebe] very DTF.[Phoebe] And a lot of that was the area we live in.[Unknown] Yep.[Phoebe] We don't have clubs here.[Phoebe] Well, there is one, but it's far away.[Phoebe] What's available in your area highly depends on really how you swing.[Phoebe] For finances, we didn't have money to get on a cruise.[Phoebe] We didn't have money to go to an adult resort.[Phoebe] We were busy raising kids.[Unknown] We didn't have time to spend away.[Phoebe] So we relied on house parties.[Phoebe] We relied on parties that were happening four times a year, big, they had the big Halloween,[Phoebe] the New Year's, the glow party, and something else.[Phoebe] That was it.[Phoebe] We found ourselves in orgies a lot of the time and we had a lot of fun and we really liked[Phoebe] those are really DTF scenarios.[Ed] Very much so.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] You're not having a lot of conversation with people.[Phoebe] In fact, sometimes you're not saying anything to that person and we would go and we would[Phoebe] observe orgies and sometimes we jump in, sometimes we just sit and watch, sometimes[Phoebe] someone would give us a little come Heather finger and we'd participate, but they always[Phoebe] started off gentle and soft.[Phoebe] They didn't always turn into full, but we really had some wonderful, caring, fun, great[Phoebe] experiences in orgies that were defined as DTF.[Phoebe] We didn't know most of those people.[Unknown] In fact, we hadn't even seen them until we got in that room.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] There were a lot of times where we would do the mingle thing down on the dance floor and[Ed] we would introduce ourselves and meet people, but none of them were going to the playroom.[Ed] So by the time we got up to the playroom, it was getting later.[Ed] People would play really, really late in the evening and we didn't want to wait.[Ed] So we would just start playing early or start playing before anybody else had started and[Ed] we would end up kind of stirring up the crowd and getting people to join in with us.[Ed] And there wasn't a lot of conversation.[Phoebe] No.[Phoebe] I mean, you don't want to kill the mood.[Phoebe] You have your basic conversation about here are my condoms, here are my lube.[Phoebe] I like this.[Guest] I'm right now.[Phoebe] I like this, this and this.[Phoebe] I don't want that, that and that.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] And you're good to go.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] The thing I loved about orgies was people are always talking about that synergy or we have[Phoebe] to wait till the stars align and when you know, you know, well, a lot of times we would[Phoebe] walk into a room where the orgy was and you could just feel the electricity, right?[Phoebe] And you knew you wanted to be part of it, right?[Phoebe] You knew that you needed to be in on that bed, in the action.[Unknown] Yep.[Unknown] And so we would, we would step up and we would ask politely, can we join or can I touch[Phoebe] and people would respond, whether they said, yes or no, sometimes we would get a[Phoebe] no.[Unknown] Sometimes they said, we're only playing together for now.[Unknown] Right.[Guest] And it wasn't a little play for sure, yeah, it wasn't very often.[Phoebe] But that that's where I think people are missing out on some really great opportunities[Phoebe] to be DTF because you're missing out on those synergized moments, right?[Phoebe] Those electric moments that are, that people keep talking about.[Ed] Right.[Ed] Yeah, that once in a lifetime chance at some point, right?[Ed] So in those, in those orgy situations that we found ourselves in, especially the early[Ed] ones, which were very soft swab, did you ever feel like you weren't being cared for or[Unknown] that you were being used?[Guest] Here's why we sail on Virgin.[Guest] It's adults only.[Guest] No kids screaming at breakfast, no family buffet lines, just champagne at noon, late-night[Guest] pool parties, and people who actually want to be there.[Guest] The vibe, think boutique hotel that happens to float, tattoo parlors, drag brunch, restaurants[Guest] you'd actually pay for on land, plus when you're looking to connect with other couples[Guest] who know how to have fun, let's just say Virgin attracts a very specific type of adventurous.[Unknown] No wonder bread cruisers here, just your people.[Phoebe] No, no, because I had a voice.[Phoebe] I was still practicing how to use my voice.[Phoebe] Because I was worried about how others felt and how I felt, but I never felt like anyone[Phoebe] was uncaring or rude or breaking any boundaries.[Ed] Yeah, and I had the same impression during those experiences.[Ed] Everybody was very in tune with each other.[Ed] There was a lot of, and this was some of the magic of what those early experiences were.[Ed] There was a lot of non-verbal consent granted.[Ed] You could just tell by their body language and their facial expressions and how they approached[Ed] you that they were respectful, that they wanted to participate, but they were being gentle.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] Yeah, I liked those.[Phoebe] That was a fun time.[Phoebe] Yeah, it was a fun time.[Ed] We had a good first few years after we got over the awkward.[Phoebe] Oh, yeah.[Phoebe] Oh, yeah, that's that.[Ed] Ugly duckling face.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] All right, so friends with benefits.[Phoebe] Let's talk about that.[Phoebe] This is defined as friends who's trust each other enough to engage in sexual activity.[Unknown] Okay.[Unknown] Great.[Ed] Classic definition.[Phoebe] Right.[Ed] And I think the kind of the urban dictionary version is,[Ed] hey, you up.[Ed] So just that friend you can call anytime and you're so comfortable with them that you could[Unknown] just have sex with them at any point.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] Or not have sex with them.[Phoebe] Right.[Ed] Although I think it tends to be, and you can answer this better than me,[Ed] people who you predominantly call not to hang out and be friends with,[Ed] but just to call for like a booty call.[Phoebe] Yeah, the friends with, but yes, and so good point.[Phoebe] The friends with benefits, not lifestyle is really, it's,[Ed] it's more like a single person who you're DTF with all the time.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] You don't go to dinner with them.[Phoebe] You don't hang out.[Phoebe] You don't go to your kid's soccer game.[Ed] So it's really light on the friend part.[Phoebe] Yes.[Ed] It's mostly the benefits.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Okay.[Phoebe] But in the swinger community, it's more heavy on the friend side.[Ed] Right.[Ed] A lot more barbecues.[Phoebe] With a little bit of benefits.[Ed] More cocktail weenies than weenies.[Ed] Got it.[Ed] Got it.[Phoebe] So, so I, I get this, this friendship aspect,[Phoebe] you know, for women, we, we like to feel safe, right?[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Safe, safety is key to, to feeling erotic or allowing that erotic system to, to come out.[Phoebe] And women experience safety differently in the world than men do.[Phoebe] And we need a little bit of that emotion, connection, or that intimacy that we were talking[Phoebe] about earlier.[Ed] Right.[Phoebe] So the safety is really key to that.[Ed] Yeah, I mean, it's an invasive process, especially if you're talking about[Ed] full on penis in vagina, penetrative sex, or, or even oral sex at that part.[Ed] Like for a guy, it's pretty external.[Ed] Like everything's on the outside, but you were very internal.[Phoebe] Yeah, you got to absorb that.[Phoebe] Yes.[Unknown] So, yes, trust me.[Phoebe] Intimate.[Phoebe] I know.[Phoebe] What is some of the downsides of[Phoebe] friends with benefits?[Unknown] I mean, the, the safety is good.[Phoebe] We talked about that.[Phoebe] I mean, it's pluses what, I don't know how many other pluses you get to know them.[Phoebe] There's that trust in the caring and things like that.[Phoebe] It makes you feel comfortable.[Phoebe] But the downsides are.[Ed] I think the biggest downside that we've experienced with the friends with benefits.[Ed] And, and to be clear, we've moved out of the DTF.[Guest] Yes.[Ed] Sort of, we're, we're swinging back towards the friends with benefits side because,[Ed] because we want that deeper emotional connection.[Guest] Yeah.[Ed] But this has been our struggle with the whole finding friends in the lifestyle.[Phoebe] Oh, yeah.[Phoebe] You go.[Ed] We invest a significant amount of time really getting to know someone and hanging out with[Ed] them and spending time with them.[Ed] And then they get out of the lifestyle.[Guest] Yeah.[Ed] They have their own thing.[Ed] They've got to figure something out.[Ed] And not only do we not have the friends with benefits anymore.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Ed] A lot of times when people exit from the lifestyle, they exit.[Phoebe] Yes.[Ed] They don't talk to anybody in the lifestyle anymore.[Ed] They are done, done.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Ed] And we've had friends, we've talked about this before on the podcast,[Ed] that we can't even have, go have dinner with them.[Ed] Right.[Ed] They don't call us for, you know, hot wings.[Phoebe] Or you get so friendly that you start learning things about them that make them less attractive.[Phoebe] Like, right.[Phoebe] Maybe their political stance.[Guest] Yes.[Phoebe] And sometimes, especially in these days, it can be a deal breaker for some couples.[Guest] Yeah.[Guest] Yeah.[Phoebe] And it's disappointing.[Phoebe] And a lot of people I know are saying, well, that's your mistake for, you know, talking politics.[Phoebe] Well, you know, sometimes it just kind of comes up, comes up casually.[Phoebe] And people go there and you try to stop the conversation from going there.[Phoebe] And it happens.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] Or you just happen to stumble across their social media platform.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] And their profile and then, then it's over, which goes back to our whole thing,[Unknown] which is like social media is fucking evil.[Ed] Because it has the potential to ruin a friendship with someone,[Ed] because now you've seen what they post.[Ed] You see the way that they interact with maybe the outside world.[Ed] They may be really nice to you.[Ed] But whatever their stance is, you just can't stand for that.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] And it takes a lot of time to build those swing our friendships.[Guest] Oh, yeah.[Phoebe] Your, it's weeks of a buildup, the chatting online, maybe the exchange of pictures,[Phoebe] trying to coordinate a date with four people, and then of course,[Phoebe] there's getting ready, setting the time, picking the place.[Phoebe] Oh, what does everybody want to eat that night, right?[Phoebe] People are picky.[Phoebe] And then you get there and it gets to game day.[Unknown] And it's, it's not so great.[Phoebe] I mean, I can't tell you how much, you know, 20 hours in,[Phoebe] vested in a friendship and you go and you finally meet them for dinner.[Phoebe] And you're like, God, I can't wait to get out of here.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] It's like, what a waste of my time.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] And I think a lot of that is one, the kind of like online flirting thing[Ed] versus the real life flirting thing.[Phoebe] Right.[Ed] But even if you've been on several dates with them,[Ed] especially if you're waiting, right?[Ed] You've got this friends with benefits mindset.[Ed] You're waiting to really get to know them.[Phoebe] Yes.[Ed] By the time you really do get to know them,[Ed] you may not actually find them sexually attractive anymore.[Ed] Right.[Phoebe] Because you know too much.[Ed] Yeah.[Phoebe] It gets in the way of having fun sexually.[Ed] Or you've waited so long that you don't know how to transition anymore.[Ed] You're such.[Phoebe] Yes.[Ed] Good friends, which we're going to talk about.[Phoebe] So too much talking.[Phoebe] Never get the fucking.[Phoebe] And the adult resorts, sometimes they are great.[Phoebe] They really are.[Phoebe] You have a lot of time to get to know somebody.[Ed] But sometimes that's a slippery slope.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Ed] Because I think a lot of people get so comfortable hanging out[Ed] and doing the pool activities and playing shuffleboard.[Ed] They forget that they're there to meet couples and hook up.[Ed] Right.[Ed] And by the time they wake up,[Ed] after their fourth all-nighter,[Ed] drinking karaoke bar, piano, dueling session,[Ed] they realize, holy shit, we're going home in two days.[Ed] We haven't fucked anybody.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] We just spent five grand to get here.[Ed] And we paid the swinger tax[Ed] and haven't had any swinging experience.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] And five grand is the conservative dollar amount.[Ed] Yeah, depending on which resort and which room you have.[Ed] Where you flew from.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] So yes, if you're not verbally expressing your interest[Phoebe] and you're not making that proposal,[Phoebe] and you're not sealing the deal,[Unknown] which we have a podcast on as well.[Ed] Yep, we're going to be doing that one very soon.[Phoebe] Then you're not going to get to the finish line.[Ed] Yeah.[Phoebe] So your NRE, your new relationship energy gets depleted,[Phoebe] you know, started off great at the first part of the week.[Phoebe] Right, they were hot.[Phoebe] It's just me, me, me, me, me.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] And now it could be different.[Phoebe] If depending on how you've defined your friendship, right,[Phoebe] maybe your friends are people you only see twice a year[Phoebe] at the same resort every year.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] I could see how your NRE would be super charged, right?[Phoebe] Because you've only seen twice a year.[Ed] And maybe you flirt throughout the year[Ed] and kind of build up that tension[Ed] so that when you finally get to the resort,[Unknown] you're like, let's go.[Ed] Ready to go.[Ed] I can't wait.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] But it really depends on how often you see that couple.[Ed] Yeah, and I think it depends a lot on the dynamic[Ed] with that couple.[Ed] I can picture some of the couples[Ed] that we've hooked up with before,[Unknown] kind of having that kind of ongoing spark.[Ed] But that's not very often.[Ed] That's not very common to have that[Ed] like supercharged sexual energy.[Phoebe] No, it's not.[Phoebe] And usually it burns out, burns too hot, too quick,[Unknown] and it fizzles.[Ed] Or like we said, they get out of it.[Phoebe] Or they get out of it.[Phoebe] Or something weird happens.[Phoebe] The big risk.[Phoebe] So then what happens when you're friend-zoned?[Phoebe] You come to regard someone solely as a friend[Phoebe] despite their sexual interest.[Unknown] And now they're just comfy slippers.[Phoebe] And this is really the death of a swinging opportunity, honestly.[Ed] Yeah, and we've had this happen, we've had this happen to us.[Ed] We've heard it from other couples who've had this happen.[Unknown] There was a quad plus,[Ed] because they had a few extras that would kind of rotate[Ed] through the, we'd heard from them that, you know,[Unknown] after a while, it kind of gets a little[Ed] SSDD, same shit, different day.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] And we're swingers.[Phoebe] We lack novelty.[Phoebe] So hence, right, new, you're always trying[Phoebe] to bring in the new and bringing in the new,[Phoebe] especially if you want friends, takes time.[Phoebe] It takes time to cultivate that.[Unknown] So if you're looking for more sexual experiences[Phoebe] on a regular basis,[Phoebe] DTF might be your jam.[Ed] Right.[Phoebe] Maybe you consider it.[Ed] Absolutely.[Phoebe] Now, some people have said, well, if it gets too comfy,[Phoebe] you can always just bring it back.[Phoebe] You just need to revive that spark.[Unknown] You could play a sex game[Phoebe] or just talk to them and say, hey, it's been a while[Unknown] since we've done, you know,[Ed] Yeah, let's set up a play date.[Phoebe] Let's set up a play date.[Phoebe] But not everybody could do that, right?[Phoebe] Some people feel like once you've slipped into that friend zone,[Unknown] it's just dead.[Ed] Yeah, it's hard to jumpstart that spark again.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] And when that spark, that NRE is good,[Phoebe] it's got that afterburn effect, right?[Phoebe] It's you're coasting.[Phoebe] Your hormones are lingering and it increases passion[Phoebe] with your primary partner.[Phoebe] And then when it's gone,[Phoebe] it's gone.[Ed] Right.[Ed] And we definitely found that in our early experiences[Unknown] where these new kind of really exciting[Unknown] sexual experiences would get us pumped up and recharged[Ed] and it would kind of recharge our batteries[Ed] for sometimes weeks or a month afterwards,[Ed] at least until the next party.[Ed] And then we would kickstart it off again[Ed] and go over and over and over again.[Ed] And it was really good for that[Ed] to kind of have those hormones[Ed] from a new relationship,[Ed] but not have to be in a new relationship.[Ed] Right.[Phoebe] And what was great about the orgies was[Phoebe] you really didn't depend on NRE.[Unknown] It was a different type of energy and synergy that was going on.[Unknown] Yeah, it was just sexual magnetism.[Ed] Right.[Ed] Everything going.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] So we still had a great time,[Unknown] but we didn't have that sparky thing[Phoebe] that a lot of people are looking for in order to hook up.[Ed] Right.[Ed] And it was just the situation that was sparky.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Exactly.[Phoebe] If you're waiting for the stars to align,[Phoebe] you're waiting for that NRE,[Phoebe] energy that sparked to happen.[Unknown] Sometimes you could wait and wait and wait[Phoebe] and then you don't pull the trigger[Phoebe] and then it starts to fade, right?[Phoebe] And maybe your inhibitions are altered[Phoebe] because you've been drinking or doing whatever.[Phoebe] And the first time is great,[Unknown] but the next time you meet up,[Unknown] you're sober and now the spark's not there.[Ed] They're not quite as interesting as they were the last time.[Ed] They're not quite as funny as they were.[Phoebe] So this whole, I guess the point I'm getting to[Phoebe] is this whole focus on finding that spark,[Phoebe] that those people with that NRE energy,[Phoebe] that's what it's going to take for me to fuck you.[Phoebe] That's pretty rare.[Phoebe] That's pretty rare.[Ed] Yeah, and I think we've definitely found[Ed] that it's more situation that creates that spark[Ed] and the energy than the individual people.[Ed] And that's not to say that the people weren't sexy[Ed] or that they weren't interesting.[Ed] It's just that being in a charged situation[Unknown] where people are horny,[Ed] and a lot of people that are horny in a small space[Ed] makes for a lot of fun energy.[Phoebe] Exactly.[Phoebe] So we want to know what your thoughts are on DTF,[Phoebe] FWB, and the friendzone couples.[Phoebe] Do you think they hide behind definitions?[Phoebe] Like FWB and friendzone because they're afraid[Phoebe] of labeling themselves as DTF?[Phoebe] Do you see value in DTF?[Phoebe] We hope we inspired some interesting thoughts[Phoebe] and perspectives with these definitions[Phoebe] and our banter back and forth.[Phoebe] But we are hoping to destigmatize DTF and the community[Phoebe] and really encourage you to type in your comments.[Ed] Maybe if DTF kind of sits uncomfortably with you[Ed] and you're not full on DTF[Ed] and you still need a little bit of that connection,[Ed] maybe you're a hybrid model.[Ed] Maybe you're somewhere in between the two.[Ed] And I think that that's where probably most of us are.[Ed] We've talked about sexuality being very fluid.[Ed] It's a spectrum.[Ed] I think that this balance between having friendships[Ed] and being open for any kind of sexual experience[Ed] or open to sexual experiences,[Ed] allows us to kind of have some fluidity[Ed] between those two definitions.[Ed] And I think this is one of the reasons why definitions are[Ed] sometimes shied away from by a lot of people[Ed] because if you label yourself,[Ed] does that mean that that's the only way[Ed] that you define yourself or is there some nuance?[Ed] There are some subtlety.[Ed] And I think that there's a lot of nuance and subtlety[Ed] between DTF and friends with benefits.[Ed] Because I think we fit somewhere in the middle[Ed] between those two.[Ed] And depending on the situation,[Ed] we're a little bit more one or the other.[Phoebe] Yeah, it highly depends on the situation.[Unknown] Yeah, absolutely.[Ed] Thanks for tuning in.[Ed] We appreciate you joining our community[Ed] and hanging out with us.[Ed] Don't forget your homework.[Ed] Tell a friend about our show.[Ed] And if you like, leave a review and a comment.[Ed] You can also leave us a voicemail at 916-538-0482.[Ed] We'd love to hear your comments.[Ed] We'd love to hear your voices.[Ed] And if you have a great story about DTF or friends[Ed] with benefits that you'd like to share with us,[Ed] feel free to leave us a message.[Ed] We'll even use you in the show.[Ed] If you want to be anonymous, no problem.[Ed] If you want to tell everybody your screen name,[Ed] go for that too.[Ed] We're open to that.[Ed] You can also reach us at swingeruniversity.com.[Ed] We have a website.[Ed] We've got a newsletter.[Ed] We've got all kinds of fun,[Ed] informative content, sexy content on that site.[Ed] And you can find all of the different social media platforms[Ed] that we're on right there.[Ed] And as we like to say,[Unknown] keep learning, keep growing,[Ed] and keep it sexy.[Unknown] Oh, one last thing before you go.[Ed] If this episode helped you in any way,[Ed] the single best thing you can do to support the show[Ed] is leaving a rating and review.[Ed] It takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us[Ed] when they're searching for relationship education.[Ed] And we've made it easy.[Ed] Visit swingeruniversity.com forward slash review.[Ed] All the instructions are there.[Ed] Thank you for being part of this community.[Ed] We'll see you again soon.