Dirty Vanillas Are Ruining Swinging (Or Are They?)

There's a real debate happening in the lifestyle community: Are "dirty vanillas" (people showing up to swinger events but not actually swinging) ruining the experience? Or is the real problem something we've completely misunderstood? In this episode, Ed and Phoebe dig into the data, share surprising stories, and challenge everything you thought you knew about who belongs in these spaces. By the end, you might see this conversation—and the community—completely differently.

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 WHAT YOU'LL LEARN

• Why 1/3 of Americans are exploring something other than traditional monogamy—and why this changes everything about the "dirty vanilla" debate

• The spectrum of play styles and why there's actually NO official definition of what makes someone a "real" swinger

• A real story from a couple in Costa Rica who called themselves "swinger adjacent"—and why their approach is brilliant

• How preferences literally shift from event to event, week to week—and why labels fail to capture what's actually happening

• The single most important skill that actually works when you're trying to figure out what someone is REALLY looking for at an event

• Why swingers have figured out something that the rest of us are still struggling with: how to create genuinely judgment-free, welcoming spaces

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KEY MOMENTS (WITH TIMESTAMPS)

• [00:01:04] The stat that reframes everything: One-third of Americans want something other than complete monogamy—and why this changes the debate entirely

• [00:03:51] Breaking down Gen Z, millennials, and Gen X data on non-monogamy—and why 31% of singles have actually explored this

• [00:06:13] The question that flips the script: Maybe it's not "Why are vanillas here?" but "Why are we gatekeeping who belongs?"

• [00:08:01] The "Swinger Adjacent" couple from Costa Rica and their unforgettable exact words about the lifestyle community

• [00:06:38] Why "soft swap" and "full swap" are way more complicated than they sound—the spectrum within the spectrum

• [00:27:00] How to actually ask the questions that matter—the simple framework that changes everything

• [00:29:45] The bigger picture: What non-swingers have already figured out that the rest of us need to embrace

Transcript

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[Ed] There's a debate happening in the lifestyle community right now.[Ed] Dirty Vanilla's.[Ed] People who show up the Swinger events aren't actually swingers.[Ed] Are they ruining the experience?[Ed] Are they deluding what it means to be part of this community?[Ed] Or is the real problem something we've gotten totally wrong about who gets the belong?[Ed] By the end of this episode, you're going to see this completely differently.[Unknown] Stick around, the answer might surprise you.[Ed] Welcome to Swinger University, I'm Ed.[Ed] And I'm Phoebe.[Ed] Today, we're breaking down a conversation that's dividing the community.[Ed] Now, we've seen some conversations about this in different forums and news, chats,[Unknown] and it's surprising to me that it is such a controversy,[Ed] but we're going to kind of dig through it and see if we can come up with a,[Unknown] maybe a better answer to it.[Ed] Before we dive in, this isn't a small conversation.[Ed] According to recent data, one third of Americans say their ideal relationship[Ed] is something other than complete monogamy.[Ed] One third, that's huge.[Ed] That's not fringe.[Ed] That's you walk into any room and let's say there's a hundred people and that's[Ed] thirty people in there who are like, yeah, no, monogamy.[Unknown] It's kind of cool.[Ed] So this whole debate about who gets to belong, it's actually important to a lot of different[Guest] people.[Ed] We've been in the lifestyle for 12 years now and here's what we've learned.[Ed] People don't fit into boxes.[Unknown] As much as I want them to keep it orderly, to keep my environment orderly and my brain[Unknown] from going everywhere, I like knowing where I fit in and how to navigate.[Ed] We're constantly surprised by how people categorize themselves or what they label their[Ed] relationship or their play style and we've seen preferences shift from week to week.[Ed] So the same couple, two different events, completely different play style.[Ed] We've also met people who don't call themselves swingers, but they keep showing up to all[Ed] the event.[Unknown] So clearly they're getting something out of this community.[Unknown] Here's the real situation.[Ed] The definition of who gets to call themselves a swinger has become incredibly complicated.[Ed] And this debate about dirty vanilla is actually exposing a bigger problem.[Ed] So let's break down the data and see what it actually tells us.[Phoebe] Gen Z, 41% are open to non-monogamous relationships.[Phoebe] Breaking that down by age among 18 to 44-year-old men, only 35% want complete monogamy.[Phoebe] 46% want something in between.[Phoebe] According to match, 31% of singles have actually explored consensual non-monogamy.[Phoebe] These aren't accidents showing up at events.[Phoebe] They're intentionally seeking this out.[Phoebe] And that doesn't even include the quote, accidents that we keep hearing about in the lifestyle.[Phoebe] There are longtime friends, birthday parties involved, lots of drinking.[Phoebe] They have a hot tub, which is, as everybody knows, the gateway to swinging.[Unknown] So be careful or not.[Phoebe] And they accidentally swap or do flirty things, and it becomes just this thing.[Phoebe] And they don't know what it is, they don't define it, they just do it.[Ed] That kind of accidental stumbling into or situational swinging that happens.[Ed] And I think part of it is that classic definition of swinger.[Ed] Plenty of things, keys and a bowl, add a party back in the 60s.[Ed] Nobody really thinks that it's kind of going on now.[Ed] They hear about polyamory all the time.[Ed] That's been pretty popular in tons of TV shows about poly.[Phoebe] But it's interesting.[Phoebe] When you hear the word polyamory, you don't think sex.[Phoebe] When you hear swinger, you think sex.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] It's just a sex party.[Phoebe] You're a swinger, and you have sex with everybody.[Phoebe] It's a tiny part of what swinging is, is the sex.[Ed] When someone shows up to an event and says, I'm not really, we're not really swears.[Ed] We just like pineapples.[Ed] I've seen shirts like that too.[Unknown] They might be telling the truth, and they just want to be part of this thing that's going[Unknown] on.[Unknown] And we've been to enough lifestyle parties where they're fun parties, and they're not much[Ed] different from a vanilla social event where everybody's dancing, drinking, socializing.[Ed] There's an extra room off to the side where people are actually having sex, but other[Unknown] than that, it's just there.[Ed] So maybe the question isn't, why are vanilla's at these events?[Ed] Maybe it's, why are we gatekeeping, who gets to belong?[Phoebe] And that's where this gets interesting.[Phoebe] Swinging is messy, as people are, and as a swinger, you will know if you're active in[Unknown] the community that there's a spectrum.[Phoebe] There's soft swap, full swap, watch, but don't play, solo play, only playing with specific[Unknown] people, only playing on specific nights, and only when they're in a specific mood.[Unknown] So it's, it's not black and white, and so even though we have those navigational definitions[Phoebe] of soft and full, there's still a spectrum in that as well.[Unknown] How many people on a bed for full swap, is it just you and the other person completely[Ed] swapping, is it separate room, is it same room, separate locations, like, so yeah, it's,[Ed] it's, there's so much.[Phoebe] So labels are hard, labels are hard, and then what are you into that night?[Phoebe] You could define yourself as full swap, but then for that evening, you only want to do[Phoebe] soft, because you want to switch it up, right?[Unknown] Right.[Ed] So there's no true version of swinger.[Unknown] There's just versions, there's a whole gamut of ways that people define themselves and[Ed] define how they swing, and after 12 years, we still meet couples whose definitions surprise[Unknown] us.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] We met a couple in Costa Rica who called themselves swinger adjacent.[Phoebe] We love that term, I do love that term.[Phoebe] And they're exact words, and we've never forgotten the sentence that they said to us when[Phoebe] we asked them, are they full swap or soft swap.[Phoebe] Their response was, we're only for each other, but swingers are some of the nicest and[Phoebe] warmest people we've ever met.[Guest] Yeah.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Unknown] And I just love that.[Phoebe] We're only for each other.[Phoebe] And we spent a lot of time hanging out with them, honestly, because they were so nice.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] Like, I really wanted to go visit them.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] And she was incredibly sexy, so it was fun hanging out with her, even if we knew nothing[Ed] was ever going to happen, it was very nice to sit by the pool.[Ed] Her outfits were great.[Ed] Like, she bit in to every other definition of a participant in the event, except for[Guest] a swapping part.[Unknown] Right.[Unknown] Why do they come?[Ed] Well, they come for the community.[Ed] And as you said, they're the nicest people.[Ed] So people are open, they're nonjudgmental, warm, friendly, they'll give you a hug and[Ed] greet you.[Ed] They don't care what size you are, what shape you are.[Ed] And there's this whole atmosphere of anticipation and the themes and the outfits and you complement[Ed] each other.[Ed] It's very reassuring and comforting, and it's a huge ego booth all the time.[Phoebe] It feels good to get compliments.[Phoebe] Most people don't get compliments during the day.[Phoebe] And if you've been with your spouse 20 years, you may not receive them as often as you[Phoebe] used to in the beginning of your relationship, it feels good.[Phoebe] Even your ego shrugged and eventually you get used to receiving those compliments.[Phoebe] Even if you're uncomfortable with them, you will get comfortable.[Ed] Well, and I'll take it a step further.[Ed] The compliments that you get at a swing or event are entirely different.[Ed] That dress looks so good on you.[Guest] Right.[Ed] I really like your shoes.[Ed] It's wow.[Ed] Your tits look fantastic in that dress.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] Yes, the compliments are richer.[Phoebe] More exciting.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] There's some shoes to it.[Phoebe] They're to the lady.[Ed] Oh, hi.[Unknown] See what you did there.[Ed] So this whole thing kind of creates this charged atmosphere where everybody's kind of escalated[Ed] sexually.[Guest] Yes.[Ed] And this kind of supercharges everybody's relationship, so not just the swingers, but the dirty[Ed] vanilla is, too, they get, they get those feels to rub off on them as well.[Phoebe] And I don't, I don't feel like that's ruining anything.[Phoebe] I just see that as participation.[Unknown] Right.[Unknown] Like everyone is participating.[Ed] Well, and that's where it comes down to this next kind of aspect to it, which is you[Ed] literally can't know what a person's play preferences until you talk to them, right?[Ed] And so you have to ask, so whether they're vanilla or dirty vanilla or all swap, you[Ed] still have to have that initial conversation with them and having that conversation changes[Ed] from time to time, as we said, people aren't static.[Phoebe] You might have a couple, a full swap couple that you met, lifestyle party in June, right?[Phoebe] Right.[Unknown] Right in the middle of summer.[Phoebe] And by September, you see them at another house party and all of a sudden, they're taking[Unknown] a break.[Phoebe] And then you see them again in November and they're back at it.[Phoebe] But then maybe they're not in it in the following year.[Phoebe] And we've seen this happen on off break, stop, start, you know, and a lot of times, usually[Phoebe] what happens is we see people often for a whole year, maybe a whole year and a half.[Phoebe] And then we just don't see them ever again.[Unknown] Yeah.[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] And that gets kind of sad because you didn't use to seeing them and you enjoy them.[Unknown] But they're gone.[Unknown] Yeah.[Unknown] The other aspect of this is we're all people working on our relationships and not every[Unknown] relationship is going to have perfect days all the time, right?[Ed] And sometimes couples get in fights at events and it completely changes the vibe for that[Ed] event or that trip.[Ed] And so you may see them at the beginning of the week at the hedonism and not so much[Ed] at the end of the week.[Ed] Perfect.[Ed] We have had that happen.[Phoebe] We have even seen one partner of the couple change their flight and go home early.[Unknown] Yes.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] That's particularly bad.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] Right.[Ed] The interesting thing is you get the flip side for the Dirty Vanilla's and they show up[Ed] just to observe.[Ed] We're just here to observe where shy we're new, we've never done this before.[Ed] Next thing you know, they're in like an eight person pile up in the middle of the play[Ed] room and you're like, well, okay, way to just like go for it.[Phoebe] I always feel really proud in those moments.[Phoebe] I was like, yay.[Phoebe] They made it happen.[Unknown] It's like witnessing a child walking for the first time and you're like, all right, we[Ed] need your help so that your community, the very one you love and have so much fun with[Ed] can also find our show.[Ed] Here's a really easy way to do that.[Ed] If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, hit that follow button and leave[Ed] us a rating.[Ed] If you're watching on YouTube, subscribe and turn on notifications.[Ed] We can't emphasize enough how much this helps the swing our community and it truly is[Ed] up to you to make that happen.[Ed] It makes a massive difference in whether new listeners can even find us.[Ed] And here's the thing.[Ed] And someone searches Swinger Podcast.[Ed] The algorithm doesn't care how good our content is or how long we've been around.[Ed] It only cares about ratings and reviews.[Ed] We'd appreciate it and your community will really appreciate it.[Ed] Thanks for listening.[Unknown] Yeah, we need a little thing like it's a good life.[Ed] So it's like every time you hear a condom pour an open, a swing or gets their wings or[Ed] something, I don't know what it would be.[Ed] And so much of this is that people kind of grow into this space and because it's such[Ed] a comfortable environment where people don't feel constrained, it lets them be fluid[Ed] in however they're feeling at that moment.[Phoebe] One of the labels that people like in the community or have tried in some of these communities[Phoebe] are to use bracelets, color coding.[Ed] Yes.[Ed] Or the necklaces on the cruise.[Ed] We've seen that as well too.[Phoebe] And you know, it's supposed to help you identify who's soft, who's full, who's not, whatever,[Phoebe] right?[Phoebe] Whatever category they decided.[Ed] They get a little weird.[Ed] So let's say you walk up to a couple and they've got the green bracelet or a full go,[Ed] right?[Ed] They're full swap.[Guest] They have no boundaries.[Guest] They're like, all holes go for it.[Guest] But that doesn't apply to every couple.[Ed] That's not full go for anybody who walks up to them.[Ed] That's just the general sense of where they're at.[Ed] And somebody who's maybe soft swap, but we see this so many times on profiles where[Ed] it's soft swap or if the vibe is right, full swap.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] Okay.[Guest] Well, then which bracelet do you wear?[Unknown] Right.[Ed] Right.[Ed] Because you don't want to do the green one because then you're advertising that you're[Ed] full swap.[Ed] But you're really only situationally full swap.[Ed] It just gets complicated.[Ed] And then what you end up with is like a pocket full of bracelets and then you're like,[Ed] okay, which honey, how are we feeling tonight?[Ed] Exactly.[Ed] Exactly.[Phoebe] And we've done that.[Phoebe] We've switched bracelets during end of end of end.[Phoebe] Yeah.[Phoebe] We have.[Phoebe] And I think the downside to with these color coding identifiers is if you get someone[Phoebe] that's very focused on only talking with full swap couples, they miss on these opportunities[Phoebe] to really get to know nice people who happen to have, this is like what the star, star[Phoebe] belly snitches.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] This is a really good example of the doctor who store, doctor sus, not doctor who, totally[Ed] different show, doctor sus story of the star belly snitches.[Unknown] So the cool kids all have stars, the ones that are not cool, didn't have stars.[Ed] And so there was a guy that came down and he would sell them for X number of dollars,[Ed] put a star on their belly and then everybody got all mixed up and by the end of it, everybody[Ed] was like, well, I guess we just have to talk to people and get to know them.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] Which is kind of where this whole concept of gatekeeping is a little bit ironic because[Ed] you don't know who you're talking to.[Ed] You don't know how they're going to turn out in labeling somebody before you even have[Unknown] a conversation with them, it doesn't, it just doesn't work.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] Doesn't apply.[Ed] Right.[Ed] If you can't use a label or past behavior to know what someone's actually open to, what[Unknown] do you do?[Ed] How do you fix this?[Ed] How do you actually know what works?[Ed] Well, by the end of this, we're going to show you the tool that actually works and it[Ed] might seem a little too simple to be true.[Phoebe] You were talking about gatekeeping in the lifestyle and you and I had a conversation earlier[Phoebe] this week about how ironic it is because the gatekeeping weed out those that aren't[Phoebe] it some definition aren't like us or them.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] And yet we promote open, loving, caring, welcoming, but only if you fit this narrow[Ed] criteria.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] So it's an oxymoron almost or I guess it's opposite of yeah, it flies in the face[Ed] of what swinging is about or what being sex positive is about and being sex positive,[Ed] you should be open to everybody and how they express it.[Phoebe] Right.[Unknown] At the end of the day, there's one tool that really works asking.[Unknown] What?[Ed] Yeah, communication is the only real tool and vetting isn't about judging people, it's[Ed] about making sure everybody's on the same page and comfortable and this is one of the[Ed] biggest arguments that you and I have all the time about the lifestyle versus BDSM community[Unknown] and that's if this sounds a lot like consent, it is about having that conversation and[Ed] figuring out what page everybody's on and everybody's going to be on a different page.[Ed] So you have to have that conversation.[Ed] Do you mind as well just get comfortable talking to other people about what their play preferences[Ed] are and what they want to do at that particular event?[Phoebe] I don't think majority of swingers are comfortable asking.[Phoebe] There's very few and I would say maybe 10%, 15% of the swingers are actually really good[Phoebe] with their words.[Phoebe] They say what they want and they ask for what they want or they ask others what they're[Phoebe] into.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] And most people aren't that forward.[Ed] I think it's a comfort thing.[Unknown] I think it has to do with that fear of rejection, that fear that a couple's too hot or that[Unknown] they're not going to be interested in you and we're surprised a lot by results.[Ed] And asking people and starting that conversation and kind of what comes out of that.[Ed] And we've been approached by people, which is flattering.[Ed] And we've also noticed that hot people don't get approached because everybody's scared[Ed] of them.[Ed] So if you do approach them, they're appreciative and you just became a lot closer to actually[Ed] having them as a partner because they're like, oh my god, you guys actually came and[Ed] talked to us.[Ed] That's so sweet.[Unknown] That's so nice.[Ed] Do you want to come back to our room?[Phoebe] It's so weird.[Unknown] We've encountered this many times where when we say hot people, they're like the, to give[Phoebe] you an example, they look like they basically stuffed out of a magazine, right, a Photoshop[Phoebe] magazine and you're like, wow, who's that?[Unknown] Right.[Unknown] They, it's funny because you would think that type of person would be super popular.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] But they're not.[Phoebe] They're almost shunned because they're so beautiful that no one feels confident to go[Phoebe] up to them because they think, oh, they'll never talk to me.[Phoebe] They'll never have liked me.[Phoebe] They'll never.[Ed] 100% were getting rejected.[Phoebe] So now they're the ones that are like stuck in the corner.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] Not having a good time to see that time and time again.[Ed] We have.[Ed] And this is where kind of this whole approach and we've had episodes where we've talked about[Ed] this whole thing.[Ed] But we're going to go into it a little bit more because it's so critical to this conversation[Unknown] which is there's an opener.[Ed] So what's an opener?[Ed] Is this your first time at a swing or event?[Ed] This works really well because it instantly tells you if they're new or if they're experienced[Ed] because if they're new, you ask one set of questions and if they're seasoned, then you[Ed] ask them other questions.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] Exactly.[Unknown] And the geography is important when you're asking these questions.[Phoebe] So you would want to know what events they go to or have been to.[Phoebe] Right.[Unknown] What types of vacations they go on, what sorts of resorts that they've been to, and you[Phoebe] get to figure out if like if they tell you, oh, we only go to meet in Greece.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] Okay.[Phoebe] Well, that might be an indication of where their level of comfort is in the lifestyle.[Guest] Right.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Or they'll say, oh my gosh, we're at desire every weekend.[Unknown] Okay.[Unknown] I want to eat that couple.[Unknown] So it gives you a little bit of a measurement of where they're at.[Ed] It can give you a little bit of an indication too in terms of if they like big events that[Ed] they're comfortable kind of mingling or if they like more intimate events, which means[Ed] they may be a little more shy and they get overwhelmed easy.[Ed] It's not a hundred percent.[Phoebe] Let's just take the couple that goes to the desire every weekend.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] Maybe they never play with anyone.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Maybe they just like the resort because it's relaxing, it's open, it's free, they get[Phoebe] to be nude, they get to do sexy stuff by themselves in front of other people and that's[Phoebe] why they love to go.[Ed] They could just be exhibitionists, which actually, if we think about it, even if you had just[Unknown] a bunch of exhibitionist dirty swingers, they're at least setting the atmosphere for everybody[Ed] else.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] Right.[Ed] You may not be swapping with them, but you get to hear them, make all the great noises[Ed] and bounce up and down and do the stuff, do the stuff, like that's great.[Ed] Like they're the entertainment, if nothing else.[Ed] So the last part of this really is the honest question, which is how do you define your[Ed] play style?[Ed] What does that look like for you?[Ed] This is where you start to get to the maybe gritty in terms of, okay, you say you're soft[Ed] or you say you're full, but what does that really mean?[Ed] You start to hear about their boundaries, you start to hear about what their rules are.[Unknown] And this works because it tells you where they actually want to be, what they actually[Ed] want out of that experience.[Ed] And because it changes from event to event or moment to moment, you're at least now you're[Ed] on the same page as them.[Ed] You start to understand.[Ed] And their answer may change depending on who's asking the question, too, right?[Phoebe] Exactly.[Ed] So it's important to ask that question because they may, you may have overheard them say[Ed] they're full swap, but then you talk to them and they're not or they were soft swap,[Unknown] but then you talk to them and they're like, oh no, we just said that to that couple,[Unknown] you're a few of us, yeah, we're, we're going to go to our room.[Ed] So there's a whole range of answers from, we don't play, we just watch, we're exploring,[Ed] maybe they don't like playrooms, maybe they don't like group settings, maybe they prefer[Unknown] something that's in a closed room or they're full swap and they're ready to go, which[Unknown] has happened.[Phoebe] Great.[Phoebe] So let's talk about what changes when you ask, all right?[Phoebe] Because now you've asked and here's a, here's a few examples, so one assumes your staff[Unknown] when you're not, because you're so friendly or you gave them a tour at the event and[Ed] they just assume that you're off limits because you gave them a tour and you're like, oh,[Ed] no, no, let me correct that very quickly, right?[Unknown] Because now they see you differently and don't think that you can play or approachable[Unknown] because staff, it's in trouble when they do that, right?[Phoebe] The other example would be, if a couple assumes everyone at the event is experienced, right?[Phoebe] They're all friends, you get invited to the group and you know that they've been traveling[Phoebe] together and they're going to go do this event and you just assume that they've all slipped[Phoebe] with one another, right?[Unknown] Because it's like, they're, because they're a thing, they're a group.[Phoebe] They're coming week every time they're, they're, they're together.[Phoebe] So that's not always the case and it's important to admit that you're new in these situations[Phoebe] too because people can be very welcoming.[Unknown] Yeah, and it really sets that correct expectations to what's going on.[Ed] Speaking of that, there's also this whole assumption of women in the lifestyle having[Ed] to be by and you can't swing unless you're by because of course the girls have to kick[Ed] the party off and so the girls have to make out and then the guy's joint, that's not always[Unknown] a thing.[Ed] Sometimes it's a thing, sometimes it's not a thing.[Phoebe] I actually hate that.[Phoebe] I don't like it.[Ed] Being labeled.[Phoebe] Well, yes, and then you know that pressure that the women have to kick off the party and[Unknown] yes, I understand we are the breaks and the gas, but side note the, some of the parties[Phoebe] we've been to that I don't, I don't like when hosts do this and they, they've stopped[Phoebe] doing it where at 10 o'clock you have to do a costume change and everyone has to be[Phoebe] in underwear, right?[Phoebe] lingerie.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] I don't like doing it.[Unknown] What if I'm not comfortable?[Phoebe] What if I'm neurodivergent and I don't want to do that?[Phoebe] I want to keep my clothes on because I'm not comfortable.[Phoebe] I don't know anybody in the room.[Unknown] That can be really hot.[Ed] Well, and it sets people up for an expectation or a rule that everyone has to do X. Well,[Ed] that's the same as saying everybody has to full swap or everybody who goes to this party[Ed] and we do know parties that are like that.[Phoebe] Right.[Unknown] I don't know.[Phoebe] These simple questions and us answers change someone's entire experience.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] So they, they're important.[Ed] So the bigger picture for this whole thing is non-swingers at events have figured this[Ed] out and it's time for the rest of us to get on board with that.[Ed] And that is swingers don't attack people.[Ed] They won't shame you and they won't exclude you like everybody's welcome at a swing or[Ed] party.[Unknown] Doesn't matter which size, shape, color you are and that's the best thing about swing[Ed] or events.[Ed] They're the nicest people.[Ed] The assumption is everyone's exploring their sexuality in their own way.[Unknown] It may not be your way, but they're out there exploring for sure.[Ed] They're pushing boundaries.[Ed] They're trying new things.[Ed] They are not lights off missionary, right?[Ed] Like they want to be in a sexy environment.[Ed] So like embrace that.[Phoebe] Although I have seen lights off missionary at a primary party, well, you know, sometimes[Phoebe] missionary.[Ed] I like missionary personally, but you know, that's the, that's the stereotype, right?[Ed] So instead of gatekeeping, how do we keep this vibe going?[Ed] Like how do we keep this free open environment where everybody's having a good time?[Unknown] How do we stay curious and stop being judgemental?[Unknown] Yeah.[Phoebe] You have to approach it with a different mindset.[Phoebe] Be direct about what you want.[Phoebe] You learn to be comfortable selling yourself.[Phoebe] That comes with time.[Unknown] Yep.[Phoebe] You've been a relationship 20, relationship for 20 years.[Phoebe] You may not be used to putting yourself out there, right?[Phoebe] But you never were.[Phoebe] Maybe you were in your 20s, but you're not in your 40s.[Unknown] Maybe you've never done it.[Phoebe] Be very clear about your boundaries and that can be challenging because women can be people[Phoebe] users.[Phoebe] They want to make sure everyone's having a good time.[Phoebe] You don't want to cause waves.[Phoebe] And I don't know what percentage of women fall under that category, but you know, they,[Phoebe] it's hard to, it's, it's a lot of pressure, honestly, if you've got four or six people[Phoebe] on the bed and you're the one pulling the report, right?[Phoebe] That means two out of the four may, you know, may not be having a good time.[Unknown] So you're kind of in charge for other people's pleasure, but not really your, your, your,[Phoebe] you in the end, you really do want to honor yourself and get people that opportunity to[Phoebe] make a different choice and be in charge of where they want to go with their pleasure.[Guest] Yeah.[Guest] Yeah.[Guest] That was really good.[Unknown] Yeah.[Unknown] It was great.[Guest] So it's a skill.[Ed] It's awkward at first, but just like anything with practice, it gets easier to ask[Ed] say no, say yes, practice your consent skills.[Ed] And most importantly, stay curious.[Ed] Stay curious to find out why those third evenals are at the event, what, what drove them[Ed] to this?[Ed] What's their backstory?[Ed] They've got a great story because clearly they're at the right place.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] So they got there for a reason.[Ed] And then once you get that, it kind of changes how you move through this space.[Ed] If you've got that curious mindset, if you've got that stack positive mindset, we think[Ed] you're going to have a better time.[Unknown] We think it's less about the goal and more about the journey.[Unknown] It's not about getting laid.[Unknown] It's about having a great time and probably getting laid.[Phoebe] The real takeaway is that you literally cannot know someone's full story without having conversation.[Unknown] And that's actually beautiful.[Phoebe] It means there's always room for connection, surprise, and people to show up in their[Phoebe] full selves.[Unknown] In closing, we opened with asking our dirty vanilla's ruining swinging.[Unknown] And the real answer is it's not about that at all.[Phoebe] Swinging isn't a definition.[Phoebe] Swinging isn't about a definition.[Phoebe] It's not about who gets to use the label.[Phoebe] It's about community.[Phoebe] People showing up authentically, however that looks.[Phoebe] They deserve to be accepted.[Phoebe] Some play with multiple partners.[Phoebe] Some don't play at all, but love the energy.[Phoebe] Some are exploring.[Unknown] Some know exactly what they want.[Phoebe] All of them belong.[Unknown] The only thing that matters is communication, asking, staying curious instead of being judgmental.[Phoebe] That's the real skill.[Phoebe] Whether you're a true Swinger, Swinger adjacent, or just someone who loves real, open spaces,[Phoebe] you get to be here.[Phoebe] The community is stronger because you are perfect.[Ed] You can leave comments on our website or your university.com.[Ed] You can call us and leave us a voice mail at 916-580482 or on our website on the contact[Ed] page.[Unknown] You can leave us a little 90 second message, which is super anonymous, and we get to hear[Unknown] your voice and it's fun for us.[Unknown] So until next time, keep it sexy.[Unknown] Keep learning.[Phoebe] Thank you.[Unknown] We did that out of order.[Ed] Yes, we did.[Unknown] Or were having fun doing it.[Unknown] Oh, one last thing before you go.[Ed] If this episode helped you in any way, the single best thing you can do to support the[Ed] show is leaving a rating and review.[Ed] It takes 60 seconds and helps new people find us when they're searching for relationship[Unknown] education.[Ed] And we've made it easy.[Ed] Visit SwingerUniversity.com forward slash review.[Unknown] All the instructions are there.[Ed] Thank you for being part of this community.[Ed] We'll see you again soon.