Finding Your Voice: How to Set Boundaries in an Open Relationship

When you finally find your voice in the lifestyle, everything changes. In this episode, Ed and Phoebe explore one of the most transformational shifts couples make in ethical non-monogamy: moving from "going along to keep the peace" to confidently advocating for what you actually want. If you've ever said yes when you really meant no, or felt like you were in the backseat of your own experience, this conversation is for you.

Watch this episode on YouTube! 

What You'll Learn

- Why the "caretaker mentality" leads to burnout and resentment in the lifestyle

- The hidden costs of performing enjoyment instead of experiencing authentic pleasure

- How setting boundaries actually makes you more attractive to potential play partners

- A simple three-step framework for shifting from people-pleaser to confident communicator

- Real-world scenarios and compassionate scripts for saying no without guilt

- Why speaking up transforms not just your lifestyle experience, but your relationship dynamic

 Key Moments

[00:00:17] - When you finally find your voice in the lifestyle, everything changes

[00:02:47] - The Caretaker Trap: Why "I don't want to ruin the vibe" is destroying your confidence

[00:07:57] - The Backseat Experience: What it costs when you're not driving

[00:12:33] - The Confidence Shift: One listener's transformation story

[00:16:09] - The Gender Dynamic: Women's opportunity to drive in the lifestyle

[00:23:30] - The Power Framework: Three steps to finding your voice

[00:32:03] - Permission-Giving Moment: You're not responsible for other people's disappointment

[00:33:02] - Real-World Scenarios: How to handle common boundary-pushing situations

[00:36:46] - The Transformation: From performing for others to prioritizing yourself

[00:40:21] - Why the lifestyle loves boundaries (and how speaking up gives others permission)

[00:43:30] - Final Thoughts: Is it about power or permission?

Transcript

0:00

[Ed] Everybody has this problem.[Ed] The most common phrase that we hear all the time is,[Ed] I didn't want to ruin the vibe.[Ed] You did a lot of like telling the guy[Ed] what you wanted and where you wanted to.[Phoebe] Yeah, because I was tired of having shitty songs.[Phoebe] The moment someone stops performing for others[Phoebe] and starts advocating for themselves,[Phoebe] that's when the real fun begins.[Ed] Is speaking your truth about power or permission?[Ed] Well, here's what we've learned today.[Phoebe] When you finally find your voice, everything changes.[Phoebe] Is speaking your truth about power or about permission?[Phoebe] We're exploring one of the most transformational shift[Phoebe] couples make.[Phoebe] And that's why it's harder for some than others.[Phoebe] Stick around to the end to get tips[Unknown] on how to find your voice.[Ed] I'm Ed.[Unknown] And I'm Phoebe.[Ed] Welcome to Swinger University.[Ed] We've received hundreds of messages[Ed] over the years about this exact issue.[Ed] And not just messages, we've talked to our friends,[Ed] we've talked to new people, experienced people,[Ed] people who've been to all the resorts,[Ed] everybody has this problem.[Ed] And that's going along with what the group wants,[Ed] what their partner wants, what the other couple suggests.[Ed] The most common phrase that we hear all the time is,[Ed] I didn't want to ruin the vibe.[Ed] That hesitation that everyone's going through[Ed] is destroying their confidence, their comfort[Unknown] with the lifestyle and their experience,[Ed] and the joy that they could be experiencing in the lifestyle.[Phoebe] In 12 years that we've been in this lifestyle,[Phoebe] we've watched this transformation happen again and again,[Phoebe] and the moment someone stops performing for others[Phoebe] and starts advocating for themselves,[Phoebe] that's when the real fun begins.[Phoebe] Oh, yeah.[Phoebe] And that's when ethical non-mononomic,[Phoebe] malagood wigwit.[Unknown] The malagood wigwit.[Phoebe] And that's when ethical non-monogamy becomes truly empowering[Unknown] instead of just exhausting.[Phoebe] Talk about the caretaker trap.[Ed] Dun, dun, dun.[Phoebe] Many people, especially women,[Phoebe] but not exclusively enter the lifestyle[Phoebe] with that caretaker mentality.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] And it's that perspective of,[Phoebe] oh, you know, I don't want to be difficult.[Phoebe] I don't want to ruin the night.[Phoebe] And everyone else seems fine with this.[Phoebe] So maybe I just don't get it yet.[Phoebe] Maybe I just don't understand how it works.[Phoebe] Or maybe I'm just too tired[Phoebe] or maybe we start making all these excuses.[Ed] Right. This is the classic.[Ed] I don't want to be the special order person[Ed] in the restaurant kind of a thing, right?[Ed] Like we do this in life in general,[Ed] where it feels almost anti-social[Ed] to push back or to ask for something more specific.[Phoebe] This comes from social conditioning,[Phoebe] being agreeable, being accommodating,[Phoebe] putting others first.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] And when you start to have children,[Phoebe] you do put others first, your kids.[Phoebe] And then at some point as they start to age and grow up[Phoebe] and move out of the house,[Phoebe] then that starts to shift a little bit[Phoebe] and you start to put you first again.[Phoebe] Although I will say good parenting[Phoebe] always does start with putting yourself first.[Phoebe] Hence, give yourself oxygen first[Phoebe] if the plane is going to crash.[Phoebe] Right. Right.[Phoebe] And then you can help others[Phoebe] because you can't help others if you're dead.[Phoebe] So.[Ed] Yeah, and I think you can let this slide[Ed] mostly in vanilla life[Ed] because things are kind of impacting[Ed] in terms of you personally.[Ed] Yeah, it might be an inconvenience.[Ed] And yeah, maybe you didn't want that special sauce[Ed] on your food or whatever.[Ed] But in the lifestyle,[Ed] it's a recipe for burnout and resentment[Ed] where it and being unsatisfied[Ed] on a pretty consistent basis.[Phoebe] Oh, yes, yes, definitely.[Phoebe] Going along actually costs.[Phoebe] You end up in situations you don't want to be in.[Phoebe] Yes, been there, right?[Ed] We were part of a big group and saying no[Ed] and not going along kind of felt awkward[Ed] and kind of socially.[Ed] I don't know what to do.[Ed] So we ended up going to those after parties.[Ed] Anyway, even though maybe we didn't want to play that night[Ed] or didn't want to play with anybody in that room.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] Part of our reason for that was we were new[Phoebe] and when we needed to make connections[Phoebe] in order to make connections,[Phoebe] you have to be in the same place, right?[Phoebe] In order to make friends,[Phoebe] you have to go do the things that friends are doing.[Unknown] So it's challenging, right?[Ed] And we were also in a position of the fake it till you make it.[Ed] Yes.[Ed] And we thought a lot of this at the time[Unknown] was us just trying to get up to speed[Ed] and be just comfortable in general with the lifestyle,[Ed] not knowing what we're talking about today.[Unknown] Yes, yes.[Phoebe] So another thing that's going along[Phoebe] where it actually costs you is you perform enjoyment[Phoebe] instead of really experiencing it.[Phoebe] So you literally are faking it.[Ed] Right.[Unknown] A lot.[Phoebe] And everyone thinks you're having a good time,[Phoebe] but your partner knows, right?[Phoebe] We've had these exchanges where I've looked at Ed[Phoebe] and my eyes are like, and he's like,[Unknown] I'm like, right?[Phoebe] So this is where some of those,[Unknown] those like cues come in.[Phoebe] Yeah, the secret hand shapes or the squeezes, yeah.[Phoebe] I need a glass of water or a pinch is arm.[Phoebe] And he thinks that's all go.[Phoebe] And yeah, we had to really come up with some tricks[Phoebe] for communicating to our partner to help bail us out[Phoebe] if we made a bad decision, particularly me,[Phoebe] if I made a bad decision.[Phoebe] The third one is your partner doesn't know what you actually want[Phoebe] because you're not saying it.[Phoebe] So that is basically what I was saying earlier.[Ed] Yeah, and that was the tragedy that we went through[Ed] very early in the lifestyle where you didn't want me[Ed] to not have a good time.[Ed] Right.[Ed] And so you kind of went through the motions[Unknown] or did things that you probably weren't comfortable with[Ed] at the time.[Ed] You weren't comfortable with them at the time.[Unknown] Yeah, yeah.[Phoebe] I will get to that part later.[Phoebe] I want to go there right now, but I'll hang in there.[Phoebe] I'll tell you where I'm going.[Phoebe] You start to resent yourself in the lifestyle,[Phoebe] which is a point that you made a little bit earlier.[Phoebe] And really the issue is how you're showing up in it.[Phoebe] And that's the cost.[Ed] This is kind of the metaphor of who's driving,[Ed] like who's taking control of the situation.[Ed] So when you're not driving, you're just along for the ride.[Ed] You're either a passenger or you're in the back seat[Ed] or in the trunk.[Ed] And you're waiting for someone else[Ed] to make all of those decisions.[Ed] And it may not even be your partner.[Ed] It could be somebody else in the group.[Phoebe] Yes, yes.[Ed] You're reacting instead of initiating.[Ed] And here's some classic examples.[Ed] Saying yes to a couple you're not attracted to[Ed] because your partner seems interested.[Ed] And the other one is going along with a place[Ed] in area that doesn't work for you[Ed] because everyone else is having fun.[Phoebe] Yes, oh my God, that drove me nuts, drove me nuts[Phoebe] because I felt left out and I couldn't figure it out.[Phoebe] And I couldn't, I was like, why?[Ed] Right, because it wasn't your thing.[Ed] That wasn't what you were into.[Phoebe] I know.[Unknown] And you're in the room.[Ed] Everybody's doing their thing.[Unknown] You kind of just go along.[Phoebe] Yeah, otherwise you feel fomo, just terrible.[Ed] So the surprising truth about all of this[Ed] is that the lifestyle requires you to speak up.[Ed] It's not, this isn't an optional thing.[Ed] You have to speak up.[Ed] Consent isn't just yes or no.[Ed] It's yes to this and no to that.[Ed] Like you have to be very clear[Ed] about what you want out of an experience.[Ed] Not just, well, we don't do anal.[Phoebe] Right, I know.[Ed] That's the classic consent conversation.[Unknown] That's the classic, yeah.[Ed] And you can also say things like maybe to this other thing.[Ed] So maybe we'll try this,[Ed] but we're gonna reserve the right to say no at any point.[Unknown] Right.[Ed] Silence isn't consent.[Ed] Silence is often fear.[Ed] You're afraid to speak up.[Ed] You're afraid to say what you really want.[Unknown] And so you just button it.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] It was really challenging for me to step into[Phoebe] that position of not wanting to be in the backseat anymore[Phoebe] and wanting to drive[Phoebe] because I'm not a driver.[Phoebe] I drive myself, but I love being in a supporting role in life.[Phoebe] I am behind the scenes person, 100% of the time.[Phoebe] It pushed me.[Phoebe] It pushed me to be different in this situation.[Phoebe] And the core question is, what are we exploring today[Phoebe] and how do you shift from going along to speaking up?[Unknown] And then what changes when you finally do speak up[Phoebe] when finding your voice feels scary?[Phoebe] Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.[Phoebe] Say what you want can feel selfish, but it's not.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] And when you're not used to doing that,[Phoebe] can feel selfish.[Phoebe] If you're putting others first, maybe yourself.[Phoebe] Saying no can feel like you're letting someone down,[Unknown] but you're not.[Phoebe] And I had this issue a lot.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] I was, this is what I was wanting to say[Phoebe] at the beginning of the episode,[Phoebe] which was I felt a very big burden of being[Phoebe] what felt like I was in charge of your happiness[Phoebe] by what I said.[Phoebe] If I said no, you were going to have a shitty night.[Phoebe] If I said yes, you were going to have the time of your life.[Phoebe] Right.[Unknown] So me being in control of that was like huge,[Phoebe] really, really difficult to overcome.[Phoebe] It's a lot of responsibility.[Phoebe] It is.[Phoebe] And because we were new in our relationship together[Unknown] and new to swinging, I felt like, wow,[Phoebe] this could make it or break it.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] So we had a lot of discussions about this.[Phoebe] A lot, a lot, a lot.[Ed] Yes.[Ed] And I think we cover what that discussion turned into later.[Ed] There's always this fear that you're being too demanding,[Ed] that people will not want to play with you[Ed] because you're just, you know, they're too picky.[Phoebe] The truth is people do respect boundaries[Phoebe] and people don't respect doormats.[Ed] Yeah. And I think that's the thing.[Ed] You speaking up shows a level of confidence.[Ed] And as we've said before, confidence is very sexy.[Ed] Oh, yes.[Ed] Couples really like that.[Phoebe] Speaking of confidence, that was a huge shift for me.[Phoebe] When I started to find my voice and stand up for myself,[Phoebe] I became more confident.[Phoebe] And I started saying exactly what I wanted[Phoebe] instead of just going along.[Phoebe] So I set goals for each interaction.[Phoebe] For example, one of the goals was,[Phoebe] I would use more direction during sex.[Phoebe] So to the left, to the right, harder, more pressure,[Unknown] less pressure, less licking, right, slower, faster,[Phoebe] whatever it might be.[Guest] Right.[Unknown] And when I started to do that, it was amazing, right?[Phoebe] I got what I wanted and the guy or the girl[Phoebe] was like, oh, you want that?[Phoebe] Oh, OK, I can do that.[Phoebe] And I was like, oh, you're enthusiastic[Phoebe] about me giving you directions.[Phoebe] So it was this really nice feedback loop.[Phoebe] And so everybody got what everybody wanted, right?[Unknown] Which was surprising to me.[Phoebe] I also started more recently, I would say,[Phoebe] in the last year or two years.[Phoebe] Refusing a hugger kiss that I didn't want.[Ed] Yeah, that one's been trickier for you.[Phoebe] It's been trickier because it's very socially ingrained.[Phoebe] And I don't always want to hug or kiss somebody.[Phoebe] Sometimes I put my hand out and someone goes, oh, I'm a hugger.[Phoebe] And they like crash into me anyway.[Phoebe] And now I've got their smelly perfume all over me[Phoebe] or their bio.[Phoebe] And then like, it's all in my hair and it's on my outfit[Phoebe] that I didn't want to have to hand wash.[Unknown] And like, oh, my God.[Phoebe] So it's challenging on so many respects[Phoebe] because it's just an honor for social vanilla life, even.[Phoebe] And so I'm learning a new script for that.[Phoebe] Hi, I'm neurodivergent.[Phoebe] And I don't always like hugging.[Unknown] But I'm happy to give you a handshake.[Unknown] Easy enough.[Phoebe] Am I confident every single time I do that?[Unknown] No.[Phoebe] Am I still learning?[Unknown] Yes.[Phoebe] The other thing was trying to let someone down gently.[Phoebe] And that was another goal, learning[Phoebe] to be very mindful of my words and let them down gently.[Phoebe] Try it out, little scripts on you.[Phoebe] When we were getting ready and then in the car.[Phoebe] And then I also tried to be very clear[Phoebe] and compassionate with my communication.[Phoebe] And the result was I felt more empowered with every interaction.[Phoebe] The only challenge sometimes is when[Phoebe] you're communicating with people later in the evening,[Phoebe] when they've been vibing on like their drug[Phoebe] or drink of choice.[Phoebe] They, yeah, it's a little harder to get compliance.[Ed] So yeah, yeah.[Unknown] But you know, it ends up working out.[Ed] And the most important thing is that you're[Ed] learning to speak up for yourself.[Ed] So you feel better.[Ed] You feel like you've advocated for yourself.[Ed] And that's huge.[Ed] Huge.[Ed] There's this gender dynamic.[Ed] We mentioned it earlier where we were talking about women[Ed] primarily have this issue of being the caretaker[Ed] and not wanting to rock the boat, not be the wet blanket,[Guest] that kind of thing.[Unknown] And there's really an opportunity for women[Ed] to drive this situation.[Ed] Use this phrase all the time.[Ed] Women are the gas and the brake.[Ed] And women have a massive opportunity[Ed] to basically be in control of the lifestyle.[Ed] And men are going to go along with it.[Ed] Because we're happy to say yes.[Phoebe] You're happy just to see boobies and butts and running[Phoebe] around all the time.[Unknown] People doing exactly.[Ed] If you tell me I have to sit in a corner and watch,[Ed] then you know, I might be just fine doing that too.[Ed] It isn't about who's, quote, in charge.[Ed] It's about who's willing to steer where the dynamic is going.[Ed] So it's not like you're bossing somebody around.[Ed] You're just, you're leading.[Ed] And leaders don't have to be bossy.[Ed] You don't have to do it in a bad way, like you said.[Ed] Clear and compassionate.[Ed] You can be a clear and compassionate leader.[Ed] You can stand by what you want and kind of guide[Unknown] where people are going.[Ed] In many vanilla relationships, men lead by default.[Ed] We were joking about trad wives the other 90s[Ed] and how that's a thing.[Phoebe] And in certain cultures, when we were at one of the events[Phoebe] in Texas, we were talking with,[Phoebe] a couple for a really long time.[Phoebe] And then the Hispanic community, the culture[Phoebe] is that the men are the primary instigator[Phoebe] and the women depend on that.[Phoebe] And they know that.[Phoebe] And so it's a completely different culture role shift.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] And I'll even say even in vanilla relationships,[Ed] the guy asks the girl out.[Ed] The guy pays for dinner.[Ed] The guy opens the door, right?[Ed] Like there's these traditional social norms[Ed] that have been set up.[Ed] And I think that has set us in that pattern so much.[Ed] And the risk is it.[Ed] The lifestyle is so different than that.[Ed] And there's so much more involved with it.[Ed] It's not just a social courtesy anymore.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] In the lifestyle, that script flips around.[Ed] And women should be in charge because they have so much[Ed] more at stake with what's going on.[Ed] They have social permission to set the tone[Ed] to choose the connection, saying yes or no[Ed] to potential partners, and direct play.[Ed] And most men love being told what to do in the bedroom[Ed] by women, women being able to say what they want.[Ed] It's incredibly empowering, but it's also incredibly sexy.[Phoebe] The right, every time, trap, done, done.[Phoebe] And I kept practicing, though I didn't get this right[Phoebe] every time, that type of perfectionism, right?[Phoebe] And it killed progress.[Unknown] Oh, yeah.[Phoebe] So you're not always going to say the perfect thing.[Phoebe] And you're going to fumble and overexplain[Phoebe] and maybe even hurt someone's feelings, unfortunately,[Phoebe] and unintentionally.[Phoebe] But that's part of the learning curve.[Phoebe] And the goal isn't perfection, it's practice.[Phoebe] We'd have an intimate conversation between us.[Phoebe] We'd go off to the side where we could hear one another[Phoebe] and say, how are you doing?[Phoebe] Is anyone interesting to you tonight?[Phoebe] What are you thinking?[Phoebe] Has your idea changed about the night?[Phoebe] Are you willing to play it or not willing to play, right?[Phoebe] Because a lot changes in that situation.[Ed] And here's the real trick.[Ed] The discomfort before you have this breakthrough.[Ed] So it's always going to be awkward before you figure it out.[Unknown] Finding your power feels uncomfortable.[Ed] You're breaking old patterns.[Ed] So you're relearning something.[Guest] You're risking conflict, even though speaking up[Ed] for yourself usually avoids conflict, which[Ed] is the irony of this situation.[Unknown] I know.[Ed] And the really important thing to remember[Ed] is this discomfort is temporary.[Ed] It's just while you're learning.[Ed] And as soon as you figure it out,[Ed] as soon as you get comfortable saying it,[Ed] you are, you've built the habit.[Ed] Remember repetition builds habits.[Ed] And then that habit becomes permanent.[Ed] You learn the skill.[Ed] And now you can enact it anytime you need to.[Unknown] Right.[Unknown] All right.[Ed] We need your help so that your community,[Ed] the very one you love and have so much fun with,[Ed] can also find our show.[Ed] Here's a really easy way to do that.[Ed] If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,[Ed] hit that follow button and leave us a rating.[Ed] If you're watching on YouTube, subscribe[Ed] and turn on notifications.[Ed] We can't emphasize enough how much this helps the Swinger[Ed] community.[Ed] And it truly is up to you to make that happen.[Ed] It makes a massive difference in whether new listeners can[Ed] even find us.[Ed] And here's the thing.[Ed] When someone searches Swinger Podcast,[Ed] the algorithm doesn't care how good our content is[Ed] or how long we've been around.[Ed] It only cares about ratings and reviews.[Ed] We'd appreciate it.[Ed] And your community will really appreciate it.[Unknown] Thanks for listening.[Phoebe] The intimacy upgrade.[Phoebe] When you start speaking up, your partner learns[Phoebe] what you actually want.[Phoebe] That guesswork disappears.[Phoebe] Your play becomes more authentic.[Unknown] We had a partner that said yes to everything.[Phoebe] Seemed like she was just trying to please him, her husband.[Phoebe] It was really his idea and she was going along.[Ed] Yes, because you could tell through her body language[Ed] and through her nonverbal communication,[Unknown] though even though she had said yes, she was checked out.[Ed] She wasn't engaged in the situation.[Unknown] And so we started getting, like I said,[Ed] uncomfortable with that because it just,[Ed] it felt like something was off.[Unknown] Yeah, yeah.[Phoebe] One night we were with another couple.[Phoebe] It was funny.[Unknown] They finally said, oh, we're not into that.[Unknown] We're like, oh, okay.[Unknown] Well, thanks for letting us know.[Unknown] Thanks for letting us know.[Phoebe] And we were so relieved because we've[Phoebe] been misreading these signals for months.[Phoebe] And it was just refreshing to just be in the know.[Ed] Right. And we just zigged instead of zag.[Ed] So we just did something different.[Ed] It was easy.[Phoebe] The beauty in that is information is key, right?[Phoebe] They gave us information that allowed us to make[Phoebe] a different choice and a different decision,[Phoebe] which took us on a different path.[Phoebe] And so that felt much better.[Ed] Exactly, exactly.[Ed] So how do you actually do this?[Ed] So we've talked a lot about our examples of what we did,[Ed] but how do you build this?[Ed] How do you go from silent people pleaser[Ed] to confident communicator?[Ed] Well, that's what we're going to get into next.[Ed] A simple framework that makes this shift way easier[Ed] than you think.[Ed] Well, let's talk about what we're going to call this[Ed] the power framework.[Unknown] Because it sounds really, it sounds cool.[Phoebe] It does sound cool.[Ed] There are three steps to this[Ed] that we're going to outline here.[Ed] And one of them you've kind of alluded to,[Ed] but we'll kind of go into it in more detail here.[Ed] And that is get clear before you show up.[Ed] Before any event, a date, a play session,[Ed] check in with yourself.[Unknown] Yep.[Ed] You ask yourself, what do I actually want tonight?[Ed] What would make me feel empowered walking out of here?[Ed] And what's a hard know for me right now?[Ed] So you're setting your own internal boundaries[Ed] and acknowledging them.[Ed] So you got to do a little introspection here.[Phoebe] And these are those goals that I was telling you[Unknown] that I would set for myself, for each event or interaction.[Ed] Now, the key thing to remember, this isn't scripting the night.[Ed] This isn't saying how it's going to happen[Ed] or who you're going to sleep with[Ed] or any of that.[Ed] This is just setting your expectations.[Ed] And this kind of goes into that whole like setting[Ed] your expectations low,[Ed] but they're setting your expectations[Phoebe] to what you want to happen, what you're comfortable with.[Phoebe] Right, and you know, I didn't actually think about this[Unknown] until just now, we kept hearing, have no expectations,[Phoebe] have no expectations.[Phoebe] Oh my god, okay, that sounds great, but.[Ed] What does that actually mean?[Phoebe] Instead we did this.[Phoebe] We set our expectations for what we wanted to do[Phoebe] based on what we wanted to achieve that night,[Phoebe] who we wanted to talk to,[Phoebe] who we wanted to potentially play with.[Phoebe] We set goals for ourselves.[Phoebe] It wasn't about not having expectations.[Phoebe] It was setting expectations for yourself.[Ed] Yeah, and I think it has to do with setting[Ed] those realistic expectations.[Ed] By the way, you can also extend this[Ed] and do this with your partner too.[Ed] Like this isn't just a solo activity.[Ed] You should have a powwow ahead of time[Ed] with your partner about this[Ed] so that you both have your expectations[Ed] but have yours first and then have yours.[Ed] Right.[Ed] You've both, everybody's got to be an alignment.[Unknown] Yeah.[Ed] Practice the compassionate note.[Unknown] So this is that whole fake it to you, make it[Ed] or the visualization aspect of it.[Unknown] You can say no and still be kind.[Phoebe] And I would let someone down gently,[Phoebe] as I was mentioning before.[Phoebe] And all of this was well thought out with words[Phoebe] that I had practiced in my head.[Phoebe] And I could still use that to communicate[Phoebe] what I wanted in the moment[Phoebe] while being compassionate to others.[Ed] Here's some examples because we love examples.[Ed] You're lovely, but I'm not feeling a connection right now.[Ed] So you kind of do the sandwich technique, right?[Ed] Where you give them a compliment[Ed] and then let them down.[Phoebe] And then a compliment at the end.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] That one didn't have a compliment at the end[Ed] but you kind of don't necessarily need it.[Phoebe] It's an open sandwich.[Ed] Yeah, open-faced sandwich is a deconstructed sandwich.[Ed] I appreciate the invite, but tonight's[Ed] not the right night for us.[Ed] Now, some of these open you up for future conversations.[Ed] And if you were feeling that,[Ed] then these are really good examples[Ed] because you go, it is just a tonight thing.[Ed] We are interested in this couple.[Ed] So let's let them down gently[Ed] and leave the door open for later opportunities.[Unknown] Yes.[Ed] And this is a really good one.[Ed] This is one that we encourage people,[Ed] especially when we went into a playroom with them.[Ed] And that was anybody can pull the rip cord at any point.[Ed] So if you need to pause, just call a time out.[Ed] We are okay with anybody saying no at any point.[Ed] And be comfortable saying, I need to pause here.[Unknown] Can we check in?[Ed] So that's a communication to your partner,[Unknown] but that could also be with the other group, right?[Phoebe] I need, we need to take a pause[Unknown] and check in with each other, you know.[Phoebe] And then that's really just it.[Phoebe] And then we go, oh yeah, yeah, sure.[Phoebe] Yeah, take your time, you know, we'll be over here.[Phoebe] Just let us know, well, hang out.[Phoebe] Sometimes we hang out for five minutes[Phoebe] to see if they come back.[Phoebe] Sometimes depending on what the conversation looks like,[Phoebe] you go, oh, this is gonna be a while.[Phoebe] And then you just put on your closing.[Ed] And you don't have to get into the very,[Ed] you know,[Ed] feel the aspect of why you need to have[Ed] that conversation to the side.[Ed] It's in many respects, it's not anybody's business,[Ed] but yours and you and your partner can go figure it out[Ed] and regroup and come back or not.[Unknown] Yeah, but that's okay.[Guest] Here's why we sail on Virgin.[Guest] It's adults only.[Guest] No kids screaming at breakfast, no family buffet lines.[Unknown] Just champagne at noon, late night pool parties[Guest] and people who actually want to be there.[Guest] The vibe, think boutique hotel that happens to float.[Guest] Tattoo parlors, drag brunch, restaurants,[Guest] you'd actually pay for on land.[Guest] Plus, when you're looking to connect with other couples[Guest] who know how to have fun,[Guest] let's just say Virgin attracts a very specific type[Unknown] of adventurous.[Unknown] No wonder bread cruisers here, just your people.[Phoebe] The goal is to once again have clarity and kindness[Unknown] and you don't any owe anyone any explanation beyond no thank you.[Phoebe] You do the no thank you very well, I will say.[Phoebe] I don't.[Unknown] Yes.[Unknown] You do it with this, I think it's your voice.[Phoebe] It's deep and soothing and you have a smile when you do it.[Unknown] And it's always like, oh, okay.[Ed] And I genuinely mean, all of this in my head,[Ed] I don't want to hurt your feelings.[Ed] I'm not interested in hurting your feelings.[Ed] You're a lovely people, but.[Guest] Oh, thank you.[Guest] No, thank you.[Ed] It's after when they hit the front doorbell[Ed] and I see that they have a clipboard and then I'm like,[Ed] get off my lawn.[Phoebe] Step three, use direction, not apology.[Phoebe] Instead of sorry, but maybe we could try something else.[Unknown] Try, let's switch it up to whatever in the mood form.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] That's what I'm in the mood for.[Phoebe] And I've done that and that works very well.[Ed] Yeah, that's the classic magician,[Ed] just redirection, right?[Ed] Like you don't tell them to not pay attention[Ed] to what you're putting in your pocket.[Guest] You just go over here and you give them something shiny[Ed] to look at.[Unknown] Shiny, shiny.[Phoebe] Direction is empowering.[Phoebe] And for you and your partners,[Phoebe] people respond well to confidence.[Phoebe] I used a lot more direction later on[Unknown] in our swinging lifestyle experiences.[Unknown] Once I figured out my stuff.[Ed] Yeah, you got my confidence and all that.[Unknown] And you did a lot of telling the guy what you wanted[Ed] and where you wanted to go.[Phoebe] Yeah, because I was tired of having shitty swings.[Unknown] There it is.[Ed] That's the million dollar.[Phoebe] And I said, if I'm gonna put on this makeup[Phoebe] and get my body dressed and spend the money[Phoebe] to get in the door and deal with the noise[Unknown] and get on a bed that's got a wet spot,[Phoebe] I'm gonna tell them what I really want[Unknown] because time is a waste.[Ed] Right.[Ed] And I'll reiterate, this isn't bossy.[Ed] Yeah, it's hot.[Ed] I like being told what to do in a bedroom.[Ed] I like a woman taking charge[Ed] and telling me what she wants.[Ed] That never going to bother me.[Ed] I have always enjoyed that.[Ed] And it's not even like the dominatrix level.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] It's just tell me how to please you.[Ed] Yeah.[Unknown] Tell me what pushes your buttons.[Ed] Absolutely.[Unknown] I will.[Ed] I'll push that button all night if you want me to.[Ed] When you know what you want and you say it clearly,[Unknown] as I said, it's very attractive.[Ed] Very attractive.[Phoebe] Permission giving moment.[Phoebe] You're not responsible for other people's disappointment.[Phoebe] Saying no to one thing is saying yes to your own comfort[Phoebe] and boundaries.[Phoebe] The right people will respect your honesty.[Phoebe] The wrong people will pressure you.[Phoebe] Red flag.[Phoebe] And that's how you know they're wrong.[Ed] So here's...[Ed] So we've given you the framework.[Ed] We're going to go through some real world scenarios.[Ed] Three of them.[Ed] So first scenario.[Ed] Soft swap that wants to go further.[Phoebe] This is probably a pretty typical boundary pushing behavior.[Ed] So you went into the playroom.[Ed] You agreed to soft swap.[Ed] But all of a sudden they're like, yeah.[Unknown] But couldn't we try full swap?[Ed] I'll just put the tip in.[Ed] There's a whole bunch of different ways to do that.[Ed] So the old you before the framework would just be silent.[Ed] And maybe not say yes, but not say no.[Ed] Maybe even give in.[Ed] And then in the morning you're going to regret that.[Ed] Because you pushed a boundary.[Ed] And maybe it was a boundary because you and your partner set that down.[Ed] And he finds out or she finds out later.[Unknown] Bad news.[Ed] The new you.[Ed] We talked about soft swap.[Ed] And that's where I'm at tonight.[Ed] Let's keep it fun.[Unknown] But within that play style.[Phoebe] And we've heard couples say that.[Ed] It's easy and easy.[Ed] If you still get pressured, that's time to leave.[Unknown] Oh yeah.[Phoebe] For sure.[Unknown] Yes.[Phoebe] I'm sorry, number two.[Phoebe] The couple you're not into.[Ed] And it happens.[Phoebe] Your partner is interested, but you are not.[Ed] That happens all the time.[Unknown] Imagine that.[Phoebe] Old you.[Phoebe] Go along.[Unknown] Fake your enthusiasm.[Ed] By the way, enthusiasm is a euphemism for fake your orgasm.[Ed] Because that's probably what's happening.[Phoebe] New you.[Phoebe] Privately to your partner.[Phoebe] I'm not feeling it with them.[Phoebe] Let's keep mingling.[Unknown] A hundred percent.[Ed] And I would so much rather hear that from you.[Ed] Then maybe get into a situation where it goes downhill.[Ed] Super fast.[Ed] Oh yeah.[Ed] Or we get into a situation.[Ed] And it's also the waste of time thing.[Ed] You're not interested.[Ed] I'm not going to keep using all my best pickup lines.[Ed] Yeah.[Ed] I'm going to go use them someplace else.[Phoebe] I'm going to throw another one in here.[Phoebe] Because this has happened to us where we've gotten split up at a house party.[Phoebe] And you're super fullerty over here.[Phoebe] And cash and cash.[Phoebe] And I'm over here by the water cooler.[Phoebe] And I'm having conversations of my own, but it's not over there.[Phoebe] And all of a sudden, you three think it's a great idea to go to the bedroom.[Phoebe] And then you're like, great.[Unknown] I'll just go get Phoebe.[Guest] Like, hard stop.[Phoebe] Like, what?[Phoebe] Huh?[Unknown] Huh?[Phoebe] I have no idea what's going on.[Phoebe] Right.[Unknown] And everyone's all like, let's go.[Phoebe] And how do you stop the moment if you had three people looking at you?[Phoebe] You're like, let's go.[Ed] What did we do?[Phoebe] How did we fix that?[Ed] First, we stopped writing checks without checking in with each other.[Ed] That's the first thing that should have happened.[Ed] And the second one was, if you're going to write a check or you're interested in writing a check[Ed] to tell the people who you're dragging along with you,[Ed] I'm going to check in with my partner first and find out.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] That has saved us.[Unknown] That has saved me.[Unknown] You us a lot.[Phoebe] My transformation, as we have been talking about throughout this podcast and video,[Phoebe] my confidence grew and I was definitely more comfortable.[Phoebe] It was time to put me first.[Phoebe] Yes.[Phoebe] And that's the shift.[Phoebe] It was from performing for others to prioritizing myself and going from caretaker to the driver,[Phoebe] from being silent to being vocal.[Unknown] And the result, I had more fun and not less fun and I got what I wanted.[Ed] Yes, and I got what I wanted because at the end of the night,[Ed] you were more satisfied or happy with the results.[Unknown] You didn't feel like you had taken one for the team which was never our agreement.[Ed] We were never into that.[Phoebe] No, but that's where that subtlety lies where I wasn't consciously taking one[Phoebe] for the team.[Phoebe] Right.[Unknown] It was me just choosing to do what I thought was easier,[Phoebe] which was to just not say anything to my own detriment.[Unknown] Yes.[Ed] And that's a good distinction because it wasn't like we'd ever been in situation sort of.[Ed] We hadn't been in situations where the expectation was that you were going to go along[Ed] so that I got what I wanted.[Ed] Right.[Ed] So that the classic taking one for the team, we didn't really do that.[Ed] We accidentally did end it up in situations where that kind of thing sort of happened.[Unknown] But the nuance with this is you being fully committed to it and not mostly committed to it.[Ed] Right.[Unknown] Solid, yes, not a mostly I'm okay.[Ed] And I've been in situations where I'm like, yeah, I'm okay.[Ed] But I'm, I think I'm less worried about that because I usually end up having a good time anyway.[Ed] Right.[Ed] And that's just been my experience with things.[Ed] Because you're easy.[Unknown] I'm very easy.[Phoebe] The other thing I wanted to throw in there real quick is it also made you feel better.[Phoebe] It made you feel better.[Phoebe] So like when I didn't speak up the next day, I felt terrible.[Phoebe] Right.[Phoebe] And then we had a conversation.[Guest] And then I felt terrible.[Phoebe] And then you felt really bad.[Unknown] Right.[Phoebe] And then I felt bad that you felt bad.[Ed] Right.[Ed] It's this like cascade of doom and regret.[Phoebe] And you felt, yeah, you felt bad for me and bad for the situation and bad.[Phoebe] Like it all and then it just kind of tarnished the good time you thought we were having that I was just kind of sort of having.[Ed] And if you had found your voice during that event, no doubt we still would have had a great time.[Ed] We always have a good time at those events.[Ed] It just would have been a different time.[Unknown] Yeah.[Unknown] So it feels hard.[Ed] It feels difficult, but it's really not.[Unknown] And this is the last little bit.[Ed] And we'll get into some more questions and read through the chat.[Ed] The lifestyle loves boundaries.[Ed] And ethical non-monogamy isn't about saying yes to everything.[Ed] It's about knowing yourself well enough to say yes to the right things.[Ed] In other words, knowing what you want, as we've keep saying, it's sexy.[Ed] And getting what you want out of lifestyle because you asked for it is amazing.[Ed] And everybody wants to do the thing that makes you happy.[Ed] Like we're all in this to kind of please our partner.[Ed] And if the partner wants this thing, providing that is fantastic.[Ed] It's not a buzzkill.[Ed] It just knows you just know which buttons to go after.[Ed] They're the foundation of trust and safety.[Ed] And for all the research that we've done about women and sexuality and their ability to orgasm,[Ed] safety is actually one of the number one things for women to be able to achieve orgasm.[Unknown] They have to feel safe.[Ed] When you speak up, you give other people the permission to do the same.[Ed] So as Free Bird was saying, women empowering each other.[Ed] You set an example.[Unknown] You set this environment where it's comfortable for other people to say something.[Ed] And you go into a bedroom with another couple and you're comfortable speaking up.[Ed] Then the woman on the bed or the man on the bed also feels comfortable about it.[Ed] So you're letting everybody off easy, right?[Ed] Like everybody's like, oh, thank God you said that because now we feel comfortable saying no.[Ed] We weren't going to say no, but now that you've said that we could say no.[Ed] It's kind of embarrassing as adults that we can't just speak up for ourselves.[Ed] We're supposed to be able to do that.[Ed] Final thoughts, my love?[Ed] Yeah, let's talk about the lessons learned.[Ed] We are a university after all.[Ed] So is speaking your truth about power or permission?[Ed] Well, here's what we've learned today.[Ed] It's both.[Ed] It claims the power to set boundaries.[Ed] And it's giving yourself permission to do it without guilt.[Ed] Phoebe realized that it was time to put me first.[Ed] I'm tired of having shitty sex.[Ed] I want better experiences.[Ed] And it improved our dynamic as well when we both spoke up for ourselves.[Unknown] And it's not selfish.[Ed] It's sustainable because it helps your relationship to continue to grow.[Ed] And it helps you to have better experiences.[Ed] Therefore, it feeds itself.[Ed] And that's how you stay in the lifestyle long term and actually enjoy it.[Unknown] If you take one thing from this episode, let it be this.[Ed] The lifestyle doesn't require you to say yes to everything.[Ed] It requires you to be honest.[Ed] When you finally find your voice, when you stop performing and start participating on your own terms,[Ed] that's when everything clicks.[Ed] That's when it becomes fun again.[Ed] That's when you realize you were always allowed to drive.[Unknown] You just had to reach for the wheel.[Ed] Thanks for being here.[Unknown] And we'll see you next week on Patreon.[Unknown] Oh, one last thing before you go.[Ed] If this episode helped you in any way, the single best thing you can do to support the show[Ed] is leaving a rating and review.[Ed] In 60 seconds, it helps new people find us when they're searching for relationship education.[Ed] And we've made it easy.[Ed] Visit SwingerUniversity.com forward slash review.[Ed] All the instructions are there.[Ed] Thank you for being part of this community.[Ed] We'll see you again soon.