For women, anger is often looked at as something negative that we need to keep hidden. This chronic suppression over time can have emotional and physical effects on our body. Today my dear friend and colleague, Jill Freestone, is here to dissolve some myths with me. What if:
Jill is an alumnus of my Advanced Relationship Trauma Certification for Coaches. She is an anxiety and emotions coach for teens and adults. To put it lightly, Jill. Knows. Her. Stuff. When clients come to her needing support with anger, she helps her clients learn to develop a love for their anger and eliminate the shame around experiencing it. Doing this creates fertile ground for sustainable healing to occur. Can you see why I'm such a FAN?
If you’ve ever experienced anger (hi, that’s all of us) and felt shame around it, this episode is for you.
In this episode we discuss:
Connect with Jill:
Website
Instagram
Lindsay’s current program offerings:
Check out her website here: Website.
Find me on Instagram : @lindsaypoelmancoaching
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Your host, certified life coach Lindsay Poelman started her journey of intentional healing started when she learned that her husband had been lying to her about pornography...
For women, anger is often looked at as something negative that we need to keep hidden. This chronic suppression over time can have emotional and physical effects on our body. Today my dear friend and colleague, Jill Freestone, is here to dissolve some myths with me. What if:
Jill is an alumnus of my Advanced Relationship Trauma Certification for Coaches. She is an anxiety and emotions coach for teens and adults. To put it lightly, Jill. Knows. Her. Stuff. When clients come to her needing support with anger, she helps her clients learn to develop a love for their anger and eliminate the shame around experiencing it. Doing this creates fertile ground for sustainable healing to occur. Can you see why I'm such a FAN?
If you’ve ever experienced anger (hi, that’s all of us) and felt shame around it, this episode is for you.
In this episode we discuss:
Connect with Jill:
Website
Instagram
Lindsay’s current program offerings:
Check out her website here: Website.
Find me on Instagram : @lindsaypoelmancoaching
---
Your host, certified life coach Lindsay Poelman started her journey of intentional healing started when she learned that her husband had been lying to her about pornography...
Myths about Anger that keep us from our Power with Jill Freestone
[00:00:00] Lindsay: Hey everyone.
Oh, my, my AirPod popped out. I just had a really big smile on my face because I'm so thrilled about who I've got on the podcast today. I've got Jill Freestone.
And the reason why we're, we've got Jill on the podcast today is to talk about anger because it's, there's so much, um, there's so many myths around anger. And even though I think a lot of us are consciously starting to see that today, it doesn't mean that. These, younger wounded parts are always quite ready to just jump on board into present day and just like, let it all out and feel it.
And so Jill has such a gift for, just different ways that she supports women and, women and men and people processing emotions and, and doing stuff like that. So I'm so thrilled to have her here today. And she's also an alumnus of my Advanced Relationship Trauma Certification for Coaches.
So she went through the first round with, with me and Kathy and that initial cohort. And so it was just an honor to have her in there. I respect the work that she's doing so much. And so with that,
let's jump in. Do you want to just introduce yourself?
Tell us who you are.
[00:01:59] Jill: Sure. I was like, I'm just your friend. I know.
Right. I am an emotion coach. I focus on anxiety and anger mostly and how that affects relationships. And so I, I coach families, um, like a whole family or just, just an individual or like a parent and teen dynamic, or even kids and just seeing where that emotion is causing this. That's what they think is a problem in their family dynamic and that the problem is that they're disconnecting and they're, they're hurting.
[00:02:31] Lindsay: Yeah. And so, I feel like I've done a fair amount of, like my own study on anger and different things like that.
And there's on anger , in my coaching certifications. Jill has this lens. It's really unique lens to it. That I feel like everyone can benefit from. So I'm going to be asking her more of the questions so that, even if you are my client, you can hear some of the stuff from someone else's perspective, which I think can .
Really enrich your understanding wherever you stand.
[00:03:00] Jill: Yeah. I think just something I was thinking about as you were talking about that. So, um, my background I think is interesting with this, where for me personally, the anxiety, depression, and anger were things that We're big. And like, I'm a big empath, big feeler, big person, and my big, not a big person.
I'm a tiny person, but the, my kids too, like I have three daughters with big emotions. And so it's something that is a lived experience and that, , you learn personally, but I have this, because I feel so big, it causes difficulties in my life, but it also causes this ability to connect. And to feel and so that's something that is just incredibly important to me to make these connections.
But also what I was thinking is that I've been coaching on this topic for five years now and being able to stay in that zone for a long time, I've learned a lot and then also felt a lot and then learned how people are coming in and out of trauma with this. And where we were initially trained at the life coach school five years ago.
Well, for me, it was five years ago, seeing how much trauma is related to basic emotions instead of the simplistic way of talking about thoughts and feelings. And I think that, and I've done multiple trauma trainings and somatic experiencing trainings to, to weave that, that I ended up helping people post therapy to like, make sense of what happened that wasn't helpful.
And that was. And then help them to have this compassion, this ability to be in their body. And then sometimes they need additional therapy. So sometimes I'm in between for people or helping them get ready to do the deeper work that is needed. So anyway, it's something that's just kind of started happening over the years that I didn't know that the ability to feel could actually help me to assist people in that way.
[00:04:50] Lindsay: Yeah, like how that has informed the way that you've been able to serve people. Oh, that's so good.
Uh, I thought of this quote that I've been sharing with my clients recently, but,
if I feel inclined to bring it in later, I will. I don't want to put the cart before the horse, but tell, , to the people listening who are like anger.
It's an emotion, how would you define it? And then, of course, we'll move, move on from there.
[00:05:16] Jill: Yeah. So we could talk the whole hour just on trying to define anger because there's so, but to try and make it simple, something that helps people the most is to separate anger out into the physical sensations and the thoughts that you have before or after the physical sensations or reacting to a stimulus or your thoughts about it.
And then the actions that you take. Because you're feeling that and then there's the processing of anger as we're trying to make sense of that which can be internal or external and then there's rage that happens that a lot of people think anger is this, this, the actions or the external expression of it.
That can be scary and and hurtful. And then there's this this grounding to that still part of the anger. So being able to separate that out helps people to reduce shame and to take control of their ability to be with it. And then like the, the anger, the physical sensations themselves, that's what I call anger.
The rest of like, Oh, that's angry thoughts. That's angry actions. That's, that's out of control, unconscious rage, or this is conscious rage. This is conscious anger. And so separating that, you see how that gives them the ability to be in it instead of afraid or shame. Because of it.
[00:06:41] Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. And what, what I also noticed too, is it's like they become the observer of their body instead of just in this reactive space where they don't know what is what.
[00:06:51] Jill: Yeah, exactly.
[00:06:54] Lindsay: Okay. So instead of it's an emotion that we feel that women shouldn't experience because it's a sign that they're out of control. What, like, yeah, like, it's a sign of, I mean, I see it as a sign of so many other things, right? I see it as a sign of potential abusive patterns being put into place.
It can be a sign of, boundaries being crossed, value sets being crossed.
But just it can be a sign of like, so much power and like beautiful powder and innovation and creativity to when we can learn to harness and like channel that...
[00:07:32] Jill: exactly. It's so powerful. And so if I can help people separate that out and start to have compassion and acceptance for the sensations first, and to not be afraid of those and to start, like we start titrating their experience to experience just a little bit like different somatic exercises with their body that they might try to tap into it because most people haven't really felt it.
They're just like, um, exploding with some repressed anger that is just. But to just actually tap in a safe way, that's part of it because they, they really are rejecting and resisting repressing. And so trying to help them move tolerance and then acceptance into allowing and to fully embracing it as this beautiful thing.
But we want to differentiate because there is, um, out of control, unconscious anger that we don't want to embrace and love that part, but we want to, I mean, we love anything that just shows up as far as acceptance, but, but there also is trauma underneath to take care of. So yeah, just saying, okay, this is a messenger, like every physical sensation, , is an information for me.
And it's, it's where I talk about emotions being comfortable or uncomfortable, like that curiousness. Oh, what, what is going on here? What am I feeling? And and noticing, like, why am I expecting to be happy or comfortable here? And why am I feeling like it's a problem instead of, oh, this is information.
And just looking at your response there.
[00:09:00] Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. What would you say? What do you ever notice resistance? As you explain and educate around this. And, and offer, ideas around doing somatic practices to move stuff around or move through. Do you ever notice a little, like, I'm just thinking of someone who maybe doesn't really understand too much about thematic awareness or processing.
So, how do you educate or inform people around the idea that how we can get our body involved? Who maybe potentially haven't had too much, um, conscious experience feeling safe enough to feel emotion. Yeah.
[00:09:41] Jill: So, uh, like I was saying earlier, first, they've got to have this switch of transform, transforming their relationship with the physical sensations itself and like gain some safety in the willingness to be in the body.
So instead of starting with anger, we might start with. Just being a little irritated or frustrated about something and just like I'll invite them. This is after we've done some basic work of breathing and touching your body and stretching and how does that feel and moving and, like activating something a little more, um, what they consider comfortable or enjoyable first.
So there's some groundwork to help them to be in the body. But it's, it's more of. Like even just a simple, like, doing some jumping jacks and then sitting back down and just being this observer of all the physical sensations that are happening. So something like that. And then the same thing is like, if we start, uh, thinking about something that's very irritating to us after we've been, cause we, I always.
Like if we activate, we regulate back down and teach them that they're in, they have the capacity and ability to do that. So then we might think of something frustrating and then just having this, a lot of validation and compassion, because that's the missing skill that a lot of people who aren't willing to feel and are willing to work on their anger.
Cause they're also shaming themselves all the time because they shouldn't feel anger, especially as a woman and all of that. So, yeah. So it's just like, When they start to feel that if something, like I said, simple as jumping jacks or pushups or something, they've associated that discomfort is okay while they're exercising.
And so then helping them find that safety during a, an anxious or a angry type of irritated thought.
Yeah. I love that. Like, we'll do those things on the call. Like we'll get up, we'll move around. We'll talk about that. We'll be checking in with the body. And, and it's different than most people are, which
[00:11:41] Lindsay: I love because again, just our bodies were not meant to be sitting all the time.
I actually listened to this podcast about, It's a little
bit of an aside, but just about how the spines of white people are different than, than, um, what did they, it had, it had to do with, like, a propensity for scoliosis or something like that because of, and this is just since, like, , the
Industrial revolution
where we've, just kind of started to sit.
And sit and sit. And so they were basically saying, like, a mother, a pregnant mother sitting all the time, like, can affect, how the baby, I don't know how the baby grows in the womb or something, but I just thought it was fascinating. And I guess my point on all of this is just that.
We are meant to move and we're meant to move in, , potent and novel ways. And, so the idea that you're bringing this into your coaching, I think is, it's phenomenal in the specific way that you do. I love it. So much.
[00:12:42] Jill: Yeah. I was thinking of another example while you were talking, helping people to tap into the, this really repressed anger too, is Irene Lyon.
Do her? Yes. Yes. She's brilliant. And so like, she has this, this, um, concept of just literally being more into the animal, which I love to tap into like the mama bear energy or the lioness. And like, literally, , get down on all fours or the standing lion or, or the standing and just start by like lifting your lip to just, and just, without even having any thoughts, just what happens when you start to show.
And, and just that, that simple, and then even just to let a growl and most people will laugh when I, and they're watching me just, you're not doing that with my face, but the last thing even isn't, is a release and that, that the laughter can trigger the vagal response, but for them to just, just experiment what happens when you even show the teeth, like this isn't visual, but I'm like, I'm opening my mouth.
I'm showing my teeth. I'm letting that move around and growl. That's one that can help people do that. Or the other one is like, if they think about. holding the steering wheel and they're in traffic and someone cuts you off and you suddenly like you kind of we make that primal kind of a sound sometimes or you might Say something out loud or swear or something.
That's a quick, healthy release. Like you're expressing it by just doing that. And so even making it safe in a relationship to be like, Oh, that's healthy. Just get that verbal and the growling, that's going to stimulate the vagus nerve. And instead of like, so that's a healthy release, but then if you continue to accelerate that and you're like chasing the person and you're crashing, like that's letting it go beyond the stimulus and letting it explode versus just like, yeah, but if you're like, no, I should be nice.
Think nice thoughts about that person. Yeah. Like that's pushing that all under. So anyway, those are some things of like them try to squeeze that even just on a call. Like, can I put my hands in that position, squeeze growl and release.
[00:14:47] Lindsay: Yeah. It's so funny that you say that because I, I have, I'm working with a new cohort right now and we're like, week two processing calls.
And I, that's something I've brought up is again, like shifting, , shifting into like healthy sympathetic response and, and how powerful it can be to. To use your body as a, as a, as a part of that and how, , you can actually cut out a lot of thought work that actually may not be sustainable anyway through this, right?
And actually, this is the quote that I, I read to them that I was thinking about, but it just goes so well with what you were saying. and it's from this podcast I was listening to. I wish I knew the name of the person. I can't quote her, but she basically said, if we stop trying to control by learning skills of social behavior.
And actually allow ourselves to move and to move differently. We not only change our expression, but our way of thinking, and that creates a different social body and that creates a different cultural body. And that's the part of original claiming of this wild mammalian part that needs to happen. Right.
[00:15:58] Jill: it reminds me of so many of the trauma parts that like in connecting with our younger parts that didn't feel safe and weren't able to, to say no and to stand up for yourself or that you started, uh, people pleasing or trying to control or help other people.
Those are, , common things relate to repressed anger. And so to just literally practice saying no out loud. Like saying that or holding your hand like a stop, like no, or putting yourself into that, like a power position with your legs spread and put your hand out. When you're, when you're starting to feel anger, like sometimes just.
Doing that is like a reminder, uh, creating safety for your younger self that now I'm going to say no to that younger part that was stuck and it can shift that anger so much because your body wants like reach out to, it's a force that like wants to give you more space because anger is usually, encroaching anger is showing when something's crossing our boundaries.
And so like when, like, say like a mosquito is coming or like an alarm is ringing, you tend to like reach your arms out and like flail your hands out or something, or, and, and that swatting, that screaming, that tightening, like those are all really good because it's physically and like energetically trying to give you more space between you and the violator.
thing. And that's like, just literally like pushing your hand slowly and envisioning pushing away or like the fast, like either one, some of those things can be really helpful.
[00:17:23] Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. And it really, it really like shifting the way you carry yourself, your carriage, , these energy shifts that can, again, Just do so much more to me.
It's like so much more organic work when, and just keeping our flow open. Right. And so just on a super basic. level, like go, if you're wondering how to handle something, just kind of going into this mammalian side and choosing a mammal that maybe feels resonant with you and it can, and it doesn't have to be a mammal per se, but like, um, , what would a Jaguar do?
What would a lioness do? Of course she might feel mad. Of course she would. Want to, , stand up and do this and whatever. And, and those, and I feel like with women, a lot of times it's around supporting them and in developing out their healthy sympathetic response. And, and by that, that means.
It's like saying words to stand up for yourself, right? Instead of keeping the pretty face, the way we've been taught, keep the pretty face. That's how you do it. That's how you get chosen.
[00:18:37] Jill: Like, yeah,
[00:18:38] Lindsay: so it can make, and it can just make sense that that can feel like a lot for, for, for women to embrace, which actually speaking of that, what, what do you see?
Um, what type of fears do you see coming up for women, or even men, too, when you offer these ideas of, , caring yourself differently or allowing canine teeth to show or these more mammalian sides to
[00:19:05] Jill: come through? Well, it's tricky just because... There's, there's these images of like the, the angry swearing out of control woman, or even like a man who's like that, but like men have power who are like that and women are disrespected.
That's a big generalization you're aware, but, but like, we're taught not to be angry, but we're dismissed. If we. Get into it.
So anger is the most useful and yet the most misunderstood and feared emotion. Like that's something that I like to share with people a lot and help them to really believe that they're, they're most feared is actually the most understood most useful because they misunderstand it.
And so this quote by Harriet Lerner can be helpful. She says that most have received little help in learning to use our anger, to clarify and strengthen ourselves. Our relationships instead, lessons have encouraged us to fear anger excessively, to deny it entirely, to displace it onto inappropriate targets, to turn it against ourselves.
Oh, I love that so much because again, it's like our power center, ? Yeah. I think it just kind of sums up like a lot of what we're talking about and just. really helping people believe that something that they fear so much is so powerful in a beautiful way too. Absolutely.
There's those two different, personas that we adopt.
They are both serving to protect others, but it like separates yourself from understanding yourself. And so change doesn't happen. You're like in this helpless and powerless state and you don't really in, you don't feel in control. And like your sense of, uh, I guess dignity or your self esteem is suffering because you haven't really allowed yourself to feel the basic thing.
Like you're just, it's this covering persona and so nothing changed. And so a lot of people who go into like the angry raging lady, they're just venting and it's, um, it's, it becomes kind of that unconscious, unhealthy. But anyway, I really like, answering, like, am I afraid of the disapproval of others? Or what people will think of me? And she asks, like, is this anger legitimate? Like, do I have a right to be angry? What's the use of getting angry? What good will it do? And, like, that's what a lot of women feel like.
It's just going to cause all these problems like, no, it's anger. It is. It's always legitimate. You have a right. And so like to help you defend yourself that you, you always have a right to be angry.
[00:21:49] Lindsay: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And just out of curiosity too, like, what do you see as misdiagnosis around anger? I think it could be helpful for people who are like, ah, anger is a thing like for them to.
Understand
what
signs, like maybe what physical cues are signs of anger, but also some misdiagnoses as well.
[00:22:12] Jill: Yeah. I think of the first one I think of is what happened to me, like, OCD, for example, I had a lot of anger and I had spent years getting good therapy and getting good coaching. I thought, but both of those missed the OCD.
And I had this. This extra anxiety and mostly anger that was just there and, and it was related to some specific things, some religious related and some related to money. And so these, if you could notice they're related to moral issues. The morality around if I explain more about it, and so watching when you're continuing to feel something really deeply and it's not able to process and you're not able to feel it, um, , looking is that trauma or is there's a miss a diagnosis that's wrong because like I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression, but the OCD was under it, or there was also religious trauma underneath that wasn't addressed.
So that I think is a big one where some things can Yeah. We're experiencing these big anger attacks and we want to do like ADHD can be that or a bipolar disorder or like intermittent explosive disorder or like just grief. Like going through a stage of grief, are we trying to prevent and like, uh, think our way out of these grief things that are an essential stage of moving through, like there could be substance abuse or hormonal changes going on or simply lack of sleep can be causing that.
So we want to look at the body and what's going on. A lot of my clients that have a big angry issues are they haven't learned how to feel. And so they're just explosive. And so they really aren't feeling they're just reactive. So it's like that. Pressure cooker that's just exploding all the time and they think, well, yeah, I've got an emotion problem, but when I help them to try to connect to their body, they're totally disconnected and have so many repressed emotions or they have child trauma that is just showing up and they're like acting like their younger self or reacting like a parent figure or something.
[00:24:25] Lindsay: Yeah. Okay. I feel like we need to repeat one little part of what you just said, , around just for people to be clear is just the difference between Feeling and and and moving through your anchor versus a pressure cooker exploding and not having it kind of process. So what would you say, like, if someone was trying to distinguish what's happening for themselves, how could they potentially distinguish.
Yeah.
[00:24:53] Jill: Like that, that unhealthy externalization that it's when you're unconscious and it's outward aggression so like lashing out having a temper tantrum like road rage. Destructive. Yeah. Like some people think like, Oh, I'm going to go and slam doors and hit things and be physically violent or verbally abusive or like, um, breaking things they think, Oh, that'll be so healthy.
But the problem is, is you have to notice where in the anger that you're at. Like, if you're just getting into this destructive explosive side, it's not healing and it's not processing, and it can actually teach you that it's like an adrenaline release and it's like fun and helpful to be explosive and harmful.
And it's the opposite. So like, even with like the rage circles, some people have come to my drum circles and thought like, Oh, great. We get to break things and destroy things. And I help them to see that there is a time for those things. Like, and I've done that once I did that where, but it's very much embodied and intentional release instead of just unconscious.
And so I really like Gabor Mate in his, the way he talks about this, he said that, um, frustration is the engine of aggression. That was actually Gordon Newfield in his book with him. But he said that people who are erupting are deeply frustrated and they're so frustrated because their needs weren't met as a child and their needs are still not met because they don't know how to meet their own needs.
And then they're letting boundaries. And so if they're not free to express, that's when that pressure cook is, is happening. And so they're not regulating those emotions. Yeah.
[00:26:25] Lindsay: Yeah. And it sounds like a very, very, like just almost like stimulus response,
[00:26:30] Jill: right?
[00:26:30] Lindsay: Like there isn't that space between stimulus and response to, to think or watch.
And so my, my assumption, I just would presume with the work that you're doing, because Who you are is just helping people find healthy ways to,
to process and move through and have these, , I don't want to say either or healthy or unhealthy, but just for, for language reasons on the more healthier side of the spectrum, healthy, sympathetic processing.
Right. And, and usually when you're taking time to observe or plan, or even be a watcher of yourself as you're doing that, there's more space between stimulus and response. And so it's. Um, can be incredibly
[00:27:15] Jill: healing. Yeah. You hit that right on. And I, I did a lot of extensive mindfulness training 15 years ago, and that's what actually helped me stop yelling at my kids.
It was, it was the mindfulness meditation and awareness. And it was, it was like, I finally started to feel real joy again. When I was using those skills to be completely in my body and aware, and I could feel the physical sensations and like, I'm really highly attuned to my body, physical sensations because of that training.
And that's when I noticed the very slight heat and tension. And that gave me that between stillness and response before I was suddenly yelling. And then I could look at what's happening even before I entered the room and see my daughter doing this and why I'm suddenly yelling at her. And, but there's an also an other part of the unhealthy anger.
It's the internalization. Like we were just talking about the externalization and the internalization where you're suppressing or you have repressed ones from childhood or depression and sickness. Where like you're as a child, you were trying to be safe. And then as an adult, you continue to feel like you need to be safe in different relationships or environments.
And so then there's those numbing or buffering activities or just avoiding those end up exploding. Or then there's the inward aggression onwards itself. Like I hate you and I deny your basic needs and you're horrible because you've done these externalized anger things. And that's when people think like having an anger is bad and scary because of that.
And so then you might start self harm or isolate or even avoid, right? You happy, or then you become passive and like, ignore people or refuse to speak up. And like, that's, that's, that's aggression as well.
[00:28:57] Lindsay: Like, yeah. Well, and I think the thing too, for people listening, if you're like, Ooh, like this, this might be me, please know that like, well, from what I know from, from the research that I've seen generally, of course, generally, , women tend to internalize more than, than men from what I've read.
Let me know if there's, if I'm saying that incorrectly, or if you have
[00:29:23] Jill: more information on that type of man, like a lot of the men who are like the highly sensitive and they've internalized the type that are anxious that way.
[00:29:33] Lindsay: Cause I would say my partner kind of leans more towards that highly sensitive side and maybe more socialized, more. And to be open to embodying that side, and so he kind of leans more into that internalization and definitely did a lot of that when he was, , with during his mental breakdown and stuff like that. And so painful to watch.
But what I want to say, if you notice yourself doing that, if that is you, please, , that internalization or stuff. A lot of this is. What was modeled to us, whether it was from our family unit or through society or culture or different things like that. And so it's really normal to this is why to me, , addressing problems in patriarchal systems and things like that is so important because it's that the outer stuff that's happening in the world.
We internalize that into our own family system too. And so please be kind to yourself if you're just kind of stepping into this awareness. Of how you may be handling anger or not handling anger in ways that you like or don't like.
[00:30:38] Jill: Yeah, it's so important. Like self compassion comes up multiple times during calls where we're doing deep emotion work.
Because the people are rejecting and shaming themselves. It's such a habit. Because society has taught us, , that it's bad because, because yeah, going and abusing and hurting someone is a bad thing to do, but the emotion is what's not bad. And it's that stimulus response that's out of control and the wounding memory.
And so instead of shaming everyone, and that's why I separate it all out, like, okay, let's focus on the physical sensation and have compassion for you. Compassion for your younger self, compassion for your parents who are doing the best they can, compassion for your partner. To try and see people in a beautiful way.
I think something with the trauma informed lens that we need to look at is the safety to create in your body before you even try to do some of these things. Because if you're just going to go do a rage thing, like trauma can come up that you didn't know you had. Like if you go to a rage room or something, or even just on a call and a lot of people aren't even grounded in themselves.
Let alone knowing how to manage other people's energy. So like the last, um, drum rage circle that I did, I was very, very concerned that how the other people would experience it. Like if you see someone screaming or hitting something, like that can bring up a past trauma. Um, and especially some places where they like put people face to face and have them, , bar your teeth or yell or something.
That can be very dangerous. And so there was a lot of safety precautions that we talked about and set up and helped people to know how to ground back into their body and be aware of their body. And just knowing how to continually come back to that and think of what feels safe and to know, have that awareness because we don't want to be reckless with yourself. Like, okay, let me just rage. Like, no, let me very, be careful to titrate myself with that and have safety. Build your capacity to feel that.
[00:32:33] Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. And, and when you can have a facilitator that knows that it can really, really support with a lot of healing and being present in the here and now, when the facilitator is reminding you of, of, , anchoring into your safety and your empowerment and your choice, like throughout, throughout anything, like in my processing calls that I do, it's As much as I can, I feed that choice in.
Right. And like, we want to go here. You can always change your mind. You can always stop. You can always pivot. And so, yeah, I can't wait to come to one of your drum circles. I know it would be amazing. And I've heard from people that have gone that they're just amazing. So.
[00:33:12] Jill: Yeah. Okay. Like, as we were talking about this, that I thought about some of the things that we miss and we're just trying to like coach people or like change their health.
Like, like for example, if you're having trouble sleeping or having bowel issues or an autoimmune issue or even high blood pressure or other chronic health problems, watching those physical things. Like, that can just be your body trying to let , like, there is anger in here that needs, or it could be other issues, too.
Yeah. But it could also be... Like in the DSM, like I've listed the ones that anger is associated, but, um, oppositional defined disorder, disruptive mood disorder, borderline personality. I mentioned, um, bipolar, but like, is there something that we're missing here instead of just trying to help people to think a different thought and try not to be angry?
Like, can we, can we look underneath like that chronic pain or chronic migraines or like overuse of sarcasm or, grief even is like turning that anger inward or like having a chronic like low self image. Anxiety, for example, is something that sometimes shows up as anxiety and there's anger underneath it, or it can, they can just be like, someone will bring me their really angry kid or adult, but it's really anxiety that's showing up as anger or even tendency can be like that.
Like people who were taught that it's not safe to feel anger. Then they show up in overwork, overgiving, not having boundaries because you didn't learn to like train that internal signal and you don't know how. And so like the, the audio immune is coming up or like just this hypervigilance. Yeah.
[00:34:51] Lindsay: Yeah. And I love that you bring that up because so often, , some of the work earlier work that I normally do with people is almost just like clearing.
I call it clearing clouds, whether it's like a brief cloud or like an anger cloud, or, , just, I mean, of course, making sure that the. , some of that anchoring is in place. Initial anchoring of safety is in place. But then when you can clear those clouds, then you can actually have more clarity around what we're looking at.
Right. It's
[00:35:21] Jill: such a good visual. I really like that. I think when you asked about like defining anger, I think looking at as a beautiful messenger, we talked about that, but a lot of people are like, Oh, anger is a secondary emotion. We got to get under, we've got to know what's under it, but anger can be a primary emotion.
And that's the part that's beautiful. Of just like letting , your boundaries are crossed and what you value. And so I love to look at that and help people develop a love for anger of like, Oh, thank you. Thank you for showing up. Thank you for really reminding me what's important to me, but then noticing too, if, if it is like underneath anger, mostly, there's some very deep things.
And And a lot of fear and sadness is under there that we haven't tapped into. And so like, that's where we can have that trauma awareness of like, Oh, where did I, where did, what part of me adopted that? And how can I give that emotion like back to someone from my younger years? And like, you can use physical things where you like physically try to grab that out.
And, , just a somatic. , kinesthetic thing of handing it back. And , that is yours. And this isn't mine. Like how sometimes, , energetic, you feel other people's emotions. Sometimes we are carrying that and to be able to, to notice and let that go.
[00:36:39] Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes we've inherited it inherited it
[00:36:44] Jill: for generations, which is that's,
[00:36:47] Lindsay: I love like helping people release the inherited stuff.
Cause it's like, isn't yours, isn't yours in the first place. So. Yeah. I mean, I think something that could be cool to just briefly maybe discuss is just like the power of, like you said, approaching, , anger as a primary emotion with curiosity and, , like, what do you see shift in your clients as they're able to approach that with curiosity and openness versus, um, , judgment or
[00:37:19] Jill: shame.
Yeah, that one takes a while for people because there's so much well generational and then just around them every day, they, they, they, they get that, like, as a child, we were told, don't yell, , stop screaming, don't be doing what we've taught our society. And thankfully, there's a lot of emotional, intelligent parenting that's going on and starting to shift that.
Again, compassion work. I think of an example maybe of a client that might be helpful. Um, there was a man I was working with and he was in his sixties and he had this anger problem. That's why he came. And it was such a beautiful switch when he was able to create this compassion for these sensations in his body.
And he had this first experience of starting to feel that. And instead of yelling at his wife to be able to let her know, Oh, this is what I'm feeling. I'm going to take this action. And just this beautiful connection that they experienced for the first time. I think that that's so. Like for them, their increased self love is huge at that, that power or, another dad that I was with when I was coaching, he, he tended to explode when he was feeling anxious.
And so the two were both there and the kids are trying so hard to be quiet and to be good. And the dad's on a work call and they're all in the car and traveling through Europe and it's like high stress. But they're, but the dad's not listening to his body. Like, he's just like, I have to take this call and we have to drive through the town and we have to do all this.
And then his anxiety and about doing everything right and his job. And, and then the mom's got anxiety because she knows the dad's going to blow up and everyone's like got all of this energy going on instead of like, let's stop the car. Let's. Let's get outside. Let's, and that ability to pause and, and say, Hey, dad's not evil.
Dad's not horrible. Dad's feeling tightness in his chest. Like to simply have some compassion for that physical sensation. Like his body is kind of shaking right now. He's feeling anxious and worried about this call and about his, his, his parenting, his ability to have raised good kids.
And, and so like on that group call with the family to like, the girls are talking, the teenage girls are like, well, this is dad's angry face. And this is what he does. And to help them kind of laugh about, Oh, what happens when you're feeling angry? Oh, he gets this face and, and he starts to talk in this tone of voice and for dad to even let them.
kind of tease each other and say, Oh, when that starts to happen, we have compassion because it's normal to feel this way. And this is how we're going to respond for each other and support each other instead of shame and hurt each other.
[00:40:02] Lindsay: I love that. So much so much. I feel like we could talk forever. I'm like, we're just scratching.
We're just scratching the surface here. Y'all but it's an interest of time. We were. I think it might make sense to wrap up a little bit. But what I do want to offer and let people know is that, um. First of all, Jill has graciously agreed to come and do some of this, , sacred rage work in my community.
So that means anyone that's a part of any of my, , certification programs or other programs that you're going to be able to be able to participate in these, in these calls. I'm hoping to have her at least once this fall. And then the other thing that I just wanted to share, too, is. Well, Jill, before you let people know how they can get in touch with you or whatever or what work you're doing, what tips would you have for listeners who are just barely kind of maybe being exposed to the possibility of anger being a guide, a messenger, an informer, , what, what could they, what's like one little baby step that they could, integrate today or this
[00:41:10] Jill: week if they're learning more about themselves.
Yeah. Right. As you were saying that what came up to me was, was if it feels safe for you to touch your body, which for some people that doesn't, but if it, if it does to, to literally just touch that place or grab yourself in a tighter hug, but just like, Oh, here's where that anger is. I'm so grateful that, that I can feel because some of us are numb and out of touch and can't feel like, Oh, this hurts.
And I'm mad. And I want to yell. I want to hurt. Just offering gratitude that I can feel. Or what is it that's showing me? Like, if you can get there, like, why, what is the message here? What is it that I value? What's important to me? And if you can do that, if not just start this, just this loving, I am angry.
And then try to say, it's okay to feel anger. Like just, just trying to say like, it is normal. It's okay. Nothing's wrong with me and separate. When I'm yelling out of control, that's a behavior I don't want to do, but you don't want to say like, it's bad. You're horrible. That's a behavior that I, it doesn't fit my value.
So like, see how I'm carefully choosing my words there instead of, , it's bad bad cause we tend to extreme it, but just, okay. That's the behavior that doesn't match my values. This physical sensation is okay. Nothing's wrong.
[00:42:37] Lindsay: Oh, I love that so much. Especially just given the types of people who are probably listening to this podcast.
I presume that they. Like wouldn't use it to use this stuff to like, to abuse, like use it in a way that's hurtful or harmful. So I think it's such a beautiful way to go. And , a lot of science supports the idea that like just noticing an emotion and like saying it out loud. So I'm noting and pointing can reduce the intensity by 40 percent just by that.
And then, and then taking what Jill said after that, you might be surprised at how much that eliminates that the intensity, , shift just through what she said. So, so good, so good. And so, Jill, how can people
find you,
um, what type of work are you doing right now for people that might be interested in, in learning more from you?
[00:43:24] Jill: Thank you for the opportunity. My, it's just my name, Jill freestone. com. It's my website. Uh, Instagram is Jill freestone coaching and I do one on one and that is my favorite way to help people in a very vulnerable way. I do, um, family groups or like, uh, two parents together, , as needed and, or I'll sometimes bring a parent and teen together, but yeah, that's where to find me.
[00:43:49] Lindsay: So good. , yeah, so please, if you're interested in this stuff, give her a follow, check her out every once in a while. She you're either. I feel like you're also involved in just really cool. If for people who live in Utah, you seem to kind of have the pulse on stuff like this happening around as well. And sometimes you post that too.
So if you're like. In or around
[00:44:09] Jill: Utah and usually connected to a lot of things and I do, this is, I guess, another side with the drumming, like I use drumming to help people with this emotional processing and connecting with their body. So I do lead drum circles or even some smaller group, , a one on one like drum experiences.
[00:44:25] Lindsay: Okay. So cool. Well, thank you so much for being here. I just appreciate you so much. And again, I, Jill is a dear, dear friend of mine, but. I also just love having her as, someone I'm networked with in this wonderful healing community as well. So,
[00:44:41] Jill: yeah, I feel the same and highly recommend you connect with Lindsay and experience her compassion and connection to her body and to yours to hold space for you.
Thank you so much.