Episode #71 When the Damage Is Repaired But the Stigma Remains

What happens when a rental property is fully repaired after a tragic event… but no one wants to live there? In this episode, Chantal and Sandy tackle a tough listener question from Dave Iadanza about insurance coverage, loss of rent, and reputational harm after a violent crime.

We walk through the real-life case of a triple homicide in New York, explore the limits of standard property policies, and share practical steps adjusters can take—like filing restitution letters and documenting coverage explanations. We also broaden the conversation to include business interruption coverage, active shooter insurance, and California’s workplace violence prevention requirements.

This is one of those episodes where claims handling meets crisis management. 

Tune in for insight, empathy, and the tools to guide insureds through the aftermath of trauma.

🔗 Mentioned in this episode:
 • Article by Chantal Roberts & Nancy Germond: How Active Assailant Insurance Can Help Your Business Survive
• Contact: Paul Marshall, McGowan Programs – Active Shooter Division pmarshall@mcgowanprograms.com

🗓️ Next Episode drops July 3: Adjuster Super Powers – just in time for the long weekend. 

For more insights, you might consider a career in liability adjusting or if you're searching for reliable adjusting services, visit Auten Claims Management.

To explore more about Chantal Roberts and her contributions to the industry, visit CMR Consulting.

Promotions:

• Once Upon a Claim: Explore the magical world of claims adjusting through fairy tales. Get your copy now.
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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Property Stigma Issues
• 6:30 Dave's Question About Tragedy-Affected Properties
• 13:12 Insurance Coverage Limitations
• 21:44 Redesigning Properties After Tragedy
• 31:09 Mass Shooting Insurance
• 37:40 Risk Management Approaches
• 45:09 Actionable Tips and Future Topics

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I'm Bill Auten of Auten Claims Management.

Speaker 2: 0:02

I'm Chantel Roberts of CMR Consulting and welcome to the Art of Adjusting podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:07

Today we're gonna talk about life as an insurance adjuster from the perspective of property, auto liability or workers' compensation adjusters. Our goal is to bring interesting topics in the world of claims adjusting to people who are working as an adjuster now and to people who are considering a career as a claims adjuster.

Speaker 2: 0:25

Hey Sandy, how are you doing? Hi, chantel, good, how are you? I'm doing really well, thank you. What is up with you? How's the weather?

Speaker 3: 0:33

It is Friday and we are just starting summer in California, which means I have to prepare myself for the AC bill for the next couple months.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Yeah, no kidding.

Speaker 3: 0:44

At least it's working.

Speaker 2: 0:45

You know small favors, right, we are going to be talking about a listener question that has been brought up, dave Erdanza. He has brought up a couple of questions here previously to us at the Art of Adjusting podcast, and this is one another one that he has brought up to us, and it happens to be a really fascinating kind of topic in the sense that spoiler alert there is not a lot that an insurance adjuster can do in this situation, but it may be that risk management or the agent can help out with this, so I'm kind of excited to be talking about this with you today.

Speaker 3: 1:29

Yeah, this is an interesting one.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Yeah. So Dave asks about a loss that happens when a rental property is fully repaired after a tragic event and no one wants to live in this property because of what has happened. You know he asked what is the insurer's responsibility when reputation has been affected by this particular piece of property. You know it's not a physical structure issue, it's just that tenants no longer want to live there and the insured happens to be like renting this place and it's nothing fun. I'm going to say this mockingly. It's nothing fun like having a haunted house and there's a ghost, because I would be renting the place. But it happens to be that there is a particular tragic event there and when the neighbors walk out of the house their houses and see that one particular house, they recall what happened. Everybody in this particular neighborhood knows what happened. So no one wants to live there. So what happens next? That is Dave's question and that's what we're going to try to go over today.

Speaker 3: 2:51

Well, thank you, dave, for the question, and I think it really shows how important it is to have empathy for the claimants, right, because that's where this question comes from. This question comes from realizing this claimant is impacted by something that insurance doesn't really touch, and we're going to talk about that, but still understanding that this is difficult for them and a lot of claimants aren't going to know. What do I do in these scenarios, like what recourse do I have? Do I have any recourse?

Speaker 2: 3:19

So the issue is and I'm going to hopefully say this right the Error Dunquat case, which was a triple homicide up in New York. There was an arson as the perpetrators tried to cover up the triple homicide. Lots of media attention. It was a month-long cold case and now criminal charges have been filed. In fact, on our recording date I think they caught the last person who allegedly committed the crime, like five days ago. So by the time the podcast airs it'll be about two weeks, two weeks, but yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:17

So I do want to mention that this particular kind of case is not so much far-fetched, because there are a lot of situations. Sheriffs were having an affair with each other, they were married to other people and one of the sheriffs happened to be married to a third sheriff who came in, busted the door open and it was a bloody scene and you could see my field appraiser had told me you could see bullet holes through like two different walls clear out to the exit. You know far wall outside wall and so. But we cleaned that up. That's what insurance does. Now we wouldn't go for the loss of that room. You know like no one wants to stay in that room and so that's kind of what we're going to be talking about.

Speaker 3: 5:16

Yeah, it's. There's a lot of other examples that I'm. When we get to it, I'll bring up, but it is sad that this is it's not uncommon, right In lots of different scenarios and we'll talk about that too, but it's great for us to be talking about it, for other adjusters to hear about it, in case they ever have a claim like this.

Speaker 2: 5:35

Yeah, and the sad truth is is, like you said, it brings up a very hard truth that bad reputation is not a covered peril, even under the special form causes of loss.

Speaker 2: 5:47

It's not going to be a covered peril that you would necessarily pay for, because that is not a covered piece of property your reputation. And so what we need to understand as adjusters is that a property policy either homeowners or a dwelling policy if it happens to be a DP policy, if you're renting or commercial property policy all of that stops at physical damage. Essentially, I think the only thing that's really quote unquote not physical damage would be loss of income, which again would be covered, but only up to when the physical damage is repaired. And so when we're talking about loss of rents in this particular instance, because this piece of property was a rental property once the insured has repaired that property or if he didn't repair that property, the property should have been repaired because the policy is specific about that as well the loss of rents stops. The loss of rents stops, so there's nothing more after that.

Speaker 3: 7:12

And having that hard conversation is important, yeah, and it's really tough, because the policyholder just sees the total impact of what they're facing. Right, they just know that they can't rent their property. But when you have something that is really difficult to determine causation, like reputation how do we know and not to say that this doesn't impact their ability to rent, the fact that there were four homicides there? But how do you know? It's also just challenges in the market that there just isn't demand, right, how are you able to tell that it's really caused by this loss? And I think that is when we're looking at things that are insurable. Things have to be measurable and things have to be structured in a way where you can determine what caused a loss. And reputation is one of those kind of mushy, not defined things where a lot of things can impact not just reputation, but why a piece of property can't be rented.

Speaker 2: 8:03

Right, yeah, and I think what you're talking about a lot is soft skills, and Bill and I have talked a lot about the soft skills that adjusters have to have. You know, like when you're basically you're telling someone, I know you think that this is the way it is and you as the adjuster can't necessarily agree with them, you know, because they will use that against you. But you know the insurance company has done its part and so the neighborhood or the neighbors that don't, you know that are still gossiping about this or whatever. I mean there's nothing we can do about it. We can't slap an injunction on them, we can't tell them to shut up. There's nothing in that property policy that can really help them or the insured.

Speaker 3: 8:53

So let me ask a question, because I I've been fortunate I haven't had a claim like this to really see what the option would be. But I know from you know in terms of risk management and responding to different emergencies, and a lot of these being targeted violence in a workplace, for instance. Let's take a. We'll take a grocery store as an example, if you have, because there's been a few of these in the last couple years. Somebody who goes into a grocery store opens fire. They have a property claim to be able to repair the damage in the store.

Speaker 3: 9:24

But one of the things that we see in terms of recommendations is you may want to consider completely changing that layout of the store you may want to remodel because if it was on the news, people are associating that image with your business and for people who live in the area, who frequented that store before, or even your employees, that's going to be really difficult for them to go in every day to that place where everything happened and everything looks the same. So there are often recommendations to change things when you do repair. And then what does that look like in terms of property to repair that? Because ideally they're repairing it to the way it was not necessarily the way you want it to be right. So for a business you kind of have to plan for that and say if this happens, there has to be money set aside to, as a best practice, make some changes so it doesn't look exactly like it did on the day of the tragedy.

Speaker 2: 10:18

Um, hold on, there is a guy and I have talked to him before, he has been on my podcast, but you are absolutely right, and I cannot remember his name right off the top of my head and usually I make Bill talk real quick. You know like, continue to fill in while I go Google something, and we'll go. We'll see if I can find this real quick.

Speaker 3: 10:42

We'll see if I can find this real quick While you're Googling it, because I'm happy to be the filler voice during the Google search. I actually learned this during a tabletop. Years ago we had a tabletop for I think it was active shooter scenarios and they had brought this up. If something happens, that you may want to completely remodel that particular area so that it's not traumatizing for the people who work there to have to go in every day if they were there on that same day. So you know the public doesn't associate that same image that it's there forever, and it could be something as small as rearranging furniture, painting. Whatever it is, you have the budget to do, but you definitely don't want to make it exactly the way it was on that day.

Speaker 2: 11:28

Yeah, and I'm not finding the guy's name. I would have to look it up. But there's a guy who is really well known about the mass shooter instances and we had specifically talked about this fact because you bring up a great point the policy that most people have only put back the property the way it was. And this actually got brought up with the Sandy Hook shootings because Sandy Hook, the school, wanted to redesign the school. So it's not so traumatic for students coming back the school, so it's not so traumatic for students coming back, teachers coming back and all of this.

Speaker 2: 12:08

And unfortunately, at this time insurance didn't have this idea that we could. We could do this sort of thing where we could change that, and so there was no endorsements or anything like that. And this particular guy whose name is just escaping me right at this this time, I'm going to remember it like midnight tonight and I'll get on the phone with you. You and I can rerecord the conversation and we'll just insert it right, right in. But what? What he was talking about is that, yeah, you know there's no coverage for that.

Speaker 2: 12:46

So he went to Lloyd's and had them write a special endorsement that specifically spoke to this fact, like when there was a mass shooting to redesign the area, because, you're absolutely right, like that motel room where the husband was shooting at the lovers, that motel room had spackle fresh coat of paint and that's what that motel room had and there was nothing new about it.

Speaker 2: 13:26

Motel room had and there was nothing new about it, unfortunately. So if you were going into a hotel room or the school or the grocery store, yeah, it is going to be put back exactly the way you found it, because think about what the policy language says. It says you know, we're going to put you back to where you came from and that is exactly where all the oranges you know stands were, all the apple stands were and all of that kind of fun stuff, regardless of what you want. So if you, as the insured, wanted to change the arrangement, you would have to do that yourself and that would be out of pocket expense that you would pay and that's often very expensive. Insureds are not used to that kind of thing and it's such a reasonable request, right. Reasonable request, right, it is.

Speaker 3: 14:22

Yeah, and I think that goes back to you know, we talked about this before the lack of understanding of insurance. So to the policy holder, they think well, you're here to make things better for me and I'm going to categorize this under making things better for me and now I don't understand why you won't do it. And for a tragedy like this, unfortunately, there are a lot of things that fall into that category. It could be everything from, let's say, you have employees who had unfortunately died in a tragedy and now there's a vigil. It's like are you hosting the vigil? Are you providing food for the vigil? Where's that money coming from? The policy doesn't cover that either. Right. But to the insured, this is all related. This is all related to the same cause of loss. Why isn't it covered? And so that's you know. Again, I think why it's so important for policyholders to read your policy, understand, go through these, go through tabletops and go through these different scenarios that if something happens, you're not finding out after the loss what is innocent covered.

Speaker 2: 15:24

Yes, absolutely. And I'm still Googling while you're talking because I'm like this guy, I'm gonna like hate it. It's like I know this guy's name, it's just like right there on the tip of my tongue. I could probably just search easily, like the art of adjusting whatever it is, but you know nah that would be way too easy.

Speaker 2: 15:50

Meanwhile, meanwhile, Bill is screaming into the radio it's so and so why don't you know? Because he is the official keeper of all the information. I'm just the good looks actually. I mean he's literally the brains behind the organization, so I don't want anybody to like misunderstand that. So, yeah, bill, meanwhile, is just screaming into the radio, going like it's blah, blah, blah, and I'm like yeah, that's probably who it is. He's gonna email me later and tell me who it is. How could you forget? How could you forget this guy's name?

Speaker 2: 16:20

You interviewed him like 15 times because it is such a he actually, he literally, this guy literally, whose name I can't remember literally invented mass shooting insurance. And what was really interesting about this is that he says technically, we don't have a mass shooting insurance policy out there. He said what this is is kind of like a GoFundMe insurance, because it's kind of exactly what you talked about. Who pays for the vigil? Who pays for and this is something that Dave had asked about is how do we pay for this loss of reputation and everything like that? How do we pay for the media exposure? Who wants to talk to the insured and all of this kind of fun things? How do we talk about the? Who pays for all of this? Who pays for the lawyer to to do the official spokesperson, ish?

Speaker 2: 17:27

And that's what this mass shooting they call it for lack of a better term insurance policy. But it's really kind of like a go fund me page, like you would pay in a premium and Lloyd's would give you X amount of money, just I mean like right there on the spot to do with as you need to. I mean it's. It's a really great, great thing, and it's not just for mass shootings. It could be because recently there have been the cars. People have been driving cars like they happened in New Orleans. I think it was over Mardi Gras. Someone drove a car into a crowd. Same thing. That particular coverage would answer, or would respond to that you know, an explosion or a knife fight or you know whatever kind of mass casualty event.

Speaker 3: 18:28

Any kind of violence. It sounds like.

Speaker 2: 18:31

Yes, and maybe his name is Chris.

Speaker 3: 18:34

See now this is I mean?

Speaker 2: 18:35

it's really bothering me, anyway. So, yeah, I mean's, it's, it's great, there are some things, but for the most part nobody gets that and and I think what's even more important to realize is, especially in this case, that Dave is talking about, we're just talking about one guy who, who has maybe 10 rentals, you know that's, I mean it. He doesn't have a huge amount. We're not talking about a grocery store that has, um, a lot of, I guess, a big risk management firm or, like you do with a school, um, you know, uh, like an actual risk manager who can go hey, you know what, we probably need this, you know that kind of thing, because your policy doesn't do that. So it brings us back kind of full circle to the thought of okay, so what does our I don't know state farm policy cover, our GEICO policy, our progressive policy? And yeah, this is when you as the adjuster don't have your policy doesn't respond to it. So you need to have that empathy.

Speaker 3: 19:52

Yeah, yeah, and that's unfortunate because I do think there are a lot of business that fall into that category right, where there's small businesses. They don't really have resources. You know their broker is kind of their go to but then it puts the broker in a tough spot, because you're obviously, as a business kind of not going to buy an endorsement for every single thing that could possibly occur ever.

Speaker 3: 20:12

And nobody really expects this sort of thing right. So, as a as a, if I'm a business owner and I have rental properties, I'm not thinking of what happens if there are multiple homicides in one of my properties and then I can't rent him. It's not a common risk, so it's really tough. But I think that at the end of the day, this is just one of the risks you face as a business. Right and insurance is only one tool in the toolbox for any business. It's one tool, so it is, and it could be anything from.

Speaker 3: 20:44

You know you choose to remodel that property. You could wait it out, because I do think. I do think when these things happen, there does tend to be a unfortunately short attention span. It'll be in the news and for a few months it'll be something that's very aware in the public's mind, and then after a while they'll kind of forget and then maybe you're able to rent the property again. So do you have enough revenue for those couple of months until the story dies down and people don't hear about it anymore and then you can finally rent it?

Speaker 2: 21:12

You know that is that is a really good thought, that you could get something like extended business interruption coverage or loss of rents coverage. But again, talking from an insurance adjuster point of view, that horse is already out of the barn. I mean if, as the adjuster, we're seeing, oh okay, it's been six months, we can't do anything, I mean we can't pay anything because the policy is clear. The only thing we can do is pick up the phone and call Sandy or the agent and go, hey, you might want to talk to the insurance. God forbid it happens again. But I mean, I have insurance I probably do not need, but I just can't get rid of it.

Speaker 2: 22:07

I am so scared. You know, every year I pay my umbrella insurance premiums and I think it's like 300 bucks for a million dollars in coverage or something like that. And every year my husband's like why? And I'm like because, a, it's only $300. And B? I, what happens if you hit a bus full of nuns and orphans that are all going to be nuclear physicists and yeah, you know, brain surgeons and stuff? I just I can't, I, I just I can't, you know. So, um, yeah, uh, there, there's all of that. Um, I'm still looking. Paul Marshall, paul Marshall.

Speaker 3: 22:57

Paul Marshall. Okay, I have Paul.

Speaker 2: 22:59

Marshall with McGowan programs. Well, he was at least with I mean a long time ago Paul Marshall. He was the managing director of the active shooter workplace violence division team at McGowan programs and, like I said, he was the one who went to Lloyd's to, to to do this, to make this kind of coverage, and he likened it to a GoFundMe account. Yeah, he said the policy will provide immediate benefits without the wait time to determine liability. In fact, Nancy Germond who I don't know if you know her or not. If not, I know that Bill does but, sandy, if you don't do, follow her on LinkedIn and anybody who's listening go. You know, follow Nancy. She's now with the Big I and she's in charge of the educational programs for the Big I.

Speaker 2: 23:58

But Nancy Jermond and I co-wrote this article way back when. How long ago was it? Oh, 2019. Woo, pre-pandemic, so that's how old it is. But yeah, he, he was, or probably still is, a big player in in the mass shooting area and that's something that y'all can think about. But, like we talked about as a, as a small intro and as yourer, of a small insured, there's not a lot we can do, unfortunately. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 24:30

Yeah, and I think this is, you know, probably another conversation. It's making sure that you know how to have these difficult conversations, because the adjuster that has to deliver that news right that yes, this is tragic and your business is impacted and for some policyholders they may not know how long they can withstand that loss of revenue. I think that's a scary thing for them. They look to the adjuster as the expert, like what do I do now? And the adjuster doesn't have all the answers. The adjuster has the answers for what is contained within the policy and sometimes you have to say I don't know. Sometimes that is the message Like I wish I had a reference or a resource to give you and I don't Like I'll help you as much as I can within this policy and this is something that falls outside of that.

Speaker 2: 25:18

Yeah, and and, like I said, I think that's that's when you have to learn to empathize and and use those soft skills. But something else that I would urge all of the adjusters to do is, every chance you get, tell the insured what the coverages are and when the coverages would be cut off. So, for example, again let's say he has loss of rents, right, and we're paying for the building, or we're paying the insured his loss of rents while the building is being repaired, while the building is being repaired, while the home is being repaired, and the policy says, hey, after it's been repaired or when you can suitably rent it, again your loss of rents is going to be cut off. That's not when someone from out of town who doesn't know what's going on about the haunted house or whatever you know, moves in which could never be happening. It's like, okay, it's been two weeks and and you should have had it done by now Um, we kind of cut it off.

Speaker 2: 26:29

So every time you talk to the insured, you need to say it on like the first contact, when you get ready to settle, when you're sending out checks and and. Yeah, you might say it 15 different times, but you got to know that we don't necessarily listen as insureds we don't necessarily listen, we don't, we don't hear. We hear you saying words. We understand that they're English, but we haven't really put two and two together yet. Yeah, and? And so it's really kind of a rude awakening when we go, hey, where's our check for this week? And you go, yeah, no, I told you, remember, I told you 15 times already that it's not coming, and that's when, kind of like the rubber hits the road. So you be sure, and, of course, write it down, put it in writing, send them a letter, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3: 27:26

So yeah, and maybe a great practice for agents, because unfortunately there are some industries where there does tend to be a higher risk of this than others, or certain areas or regions. And if that's the case, then have having those conversations of hey, we know this isn't common. We want to make you aware that this coverage is available, cause I and I didn't even know there was a special endorsement specifically for and it almost sounds like the way it was described. It almost sounds like parametric insurance, which just the triggering event of the, the, the, and then immediately pays out. There is no adjustment per se, correct, right?

Speaker 2: 27:59

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of I don't think parametric had been quote unquote invented yet, or it probably had been invented, but but we didn't all know those terms. And for those who don't know, parametric is kind of like a GoFundMe account, it's. It's kind of cool. It's like, hey, you've had a loss, here's all your money, you know. It's kind of like a bank account, you know, and getting into a whole different thing of like. Is Parametric insurance really insurance? Because have you had a fortuitous loss? I don't know? You know, and all of this kind of fun jazz. That's a whole different podcast, yeah, different podcast, but yeah, so what Paul had said was a GoFundMe account and I think we still understand that kind of concept of like a GoFundMe account.

Speaker 2: 28:49

But yeah, I, and for this particular instance I think it might be where you would have two separate insurance companies, because for the most part I think, like in this particular instance, just using Dave's example, I don't know who the insurance company is, but we'll just call them ABC Mutual and you know, abc mutual will probably do the average everyday things that a domestic carrier will do. I doubt abc mutual has a an endorsement for rearranging where the front door is, you know, and the layout of the rooms or whatever. Um, so in this particular instance you may have to go to Lloyd's for that particular endorsement, but again, I don't know how expensive that would be for the average landlord, you know. But again it's kind of a little too late, because it's one of the things that gets me really upset about insurance is that man, we're talking, you and I we're sitting here talking about how can we fix this problem? Well, I don't know, because by the time it gets to me as the adjuster, it's too late.

Speaker 2: 30:07

Yeah, yeah, and really what we should be doing is focusing and teaching insurance from the claims point of view, working backwards. Okay, so now we've got this problem, how are we going to fix it so that it rolls like uphill all the way up to underwriting and underwriters go? Oh yeah, we should probably, you know, offer that even to our homeowners, because people are getting crazy now homeowners because people are getting crazy.

Speaker 3: 30:40

Now, yeah, and you know I've seen the policies where it's something the agent checks the box and says, hey, we had this conversation about this particular endorsement. You declined, but just so you know we had it, so that it can't come back later and say why didn't you tell me that this was an option? I didn't know that I needed this additional coverage.

Speaker 3: 30:54

So kind of make sure that the agent is having those conversations with them, because you're right, they'll we're saying the words and they're not going to remember Right, pay, whatever I need to pay to have the thing I have to have, but they're not seeing it as something that has value and has to be considered for your risk profile. What is appropriate for you? What coverage do you need? What losses are likely? It's more of a, you know, check the box, what's the? What's the cheapest premium? Which is the worst? I mean, that's the worst with everybody the worst way to shop for insurance, because when you have that loss you do not want the cheapest coverage.

Speaker 2: 31:38

No, because, and you know what, again, coming from a claims point of view, we're the ones who get yelled at because the insured is the one who bought it the cheapest coverage. And you're like, well, I don't know why you thought you were going to be up in, like Burgum, goodoffs, mesa or Nordstrom, saks, fifth Avenue, you know kind of Harrods market here. You're in Kmart, dude, because that's what you paid for. You know, I'm sorry, but it's not me, it's you. But it's funny that you mentioned this checkoff list for agents. And again, nothing to necessarily do with adjusters, although maybe agents are listening to the podcast or something, but Chris Bertrand, who we just had on the podcast, has this fantastic resource on his website. It's called Forms and it is nothing but checkoff boxes for agents.

Speaker 2: 32:47

And I was talking to a friend of mine, enoch, who also listens to the podcast, and I said, dude, you totally need to to like use this in your agency situation, because if I weren't insured and I saw the list, the plethora of of crap that could go wrong on my house, you know I'm I would suddenly it would wash over me of of how I should not buy just the cheapest insurance. Um, that you're not just blowing smoke, so to speak. You're not just making things up because here it is in black and white, because you're checking off, boom, boom, boom. Do you need? Do you work out of your home? Oh, you do. So you need business coverage too, don't you? You know? And blah, blah, blah, this and this, and I'm like, wow, that would wash over me, as opposed to him just asking me Right. So, anyway, I love, I love checklist. So, for what it's worth, um, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:02

So let's talk action items. Let's talk about things that that adjusters could do, because we've talked a lot about what you can't do. You can't do, you really can't do anything because it's too late, except to tell the insured early and often and be sympathetic that this is not, this is really not going to help you out. You know, you need to go back to the adjust or to the agent and maybe buy different kinds of insurance for for a loss of um, business or loss of reputation or something like that. Uh, subrogation letters, okay, um, you, you can send out, and usually I call them restitution letters.

Speaker 2: 34:40

At this particular point, it's not necessarily quote, unquote, subrogation, but I call them restitution letters because a crime has been committed. We may or may not know who has done the crime, like an arson, and so what I would do is send a restitution letter to the police and then to the district attorney that says, hey, when and if an arrest has been made or judgment gets passed down, this is how much we paid out, and I want that money to be part of the guilty person's judgment, like they have to pay us back. Look, you're never going to get that money back. It's money out of a, it's like blood out of a turnip or whatever, or stone. But do it, and you should also, I think, put in the amounts of money that you don't pay but that the insured is owed, like the deductible or maybe something that is not covered, like maybe they did do the reconfiguration of the store or whatever I mean you're.

Speaker 3: 35:50

Just I think it would be a great idea to really focus on letting the policyholder know we're going to do a really thorough investigation and as part of that investigation there are a lot of things that are not covered. And I agree, I think collectability is an issue because if the person is going to prison, like how are you getting your money back? But it lets them know with the investigation that I'm doing, we're going to help build a case so that if you policyholder decide to pursue this person civilly if they get out of jail, when they get out of jail, whatever the case may be, we've collected all that information for you because you're probably going to want to pursue them for all those costs outside of what we cover under the policy. And then it kind of builds that you know the relationship and shows that you are trying to help them as much as you can because all that work the adjuster does can still benefit them to pursue that outside of what's covered in the policy.

Speaker 2: 36:40

Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. And again, what you need to do as an adjuster again is just document the file thoroughly. You've had that conversation with the insured as to why things aren't covered. They've acknowledged it. Because three years down the line, if you get sued for bad faith, if all you said was I told the insured about coverage. I don't know what that coverage is. It could be the rental coverage, it could be the property damage coverage, it could be co-insurance issues, I don't know. So you're totally making sure that you're CYA. Unfortunately, because a lot of times when these things go sideways, they go sideways. I don't think to get SIU involved in like this kind of particular case or the mass shooting or the mass assault kind of case, but every case is different, so it's always something to keep in the uppermost of your mind. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:50

Are there any like risk management or prevention angles that you could could necessarily think of, since we've got you and your expertise here.

Speaker 3: 38:00

I think it's definitely challenged because targeted violence is one of those things where it depends really on the industry and the environment in terms of how you prepare for that. But I know California is the only state right now that has a requirement under OSHA for targeted violence. You actually have to have a prevention plan. I think other states will eventually go that way. But they kind of go through the different categories and I think those different categories are good ideas for all employers or businesses to consider. And it falls into. The first category is basically a policy. Bad actor has no business being there on the premises in your business. They're there like your typical active shooter scenario. Somebody comes in with the intent to harm no business there. They don't know anybody, they're not necessarily. They're just there to harm. Your second one is like your employees, your employees targeting violence against each other. So the story that you gave is like their employees, but it was a separate. It was off work. But what if that happens in the workplace?

Speaker 2: 39:03

Right.

Speaker 3: 39:04

And the other one is your, if it is a caused by a customer, client, patient, students, and you see it a lot in hospitals. And then the last one is trying to remember the fourth category. Oh, the fourth category is actually domestic violence.

Speaker 2: 39:21

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 39:26

Somebody who they're, let's say the person who came to commit the, and I don't know the details in terms of why the arsonist came to that location, what their relationship was and what they were trying to do, who they were trying to harm specifically. But if you have someone who that's their partner, your spouse, whatever the case may be and they come to the business specifically to harm you, but also other people are harmed in the process, right? So as a business, you're looking at the different risk profiles, you have what is likely for your scenario and what can you do to make sure that people are aware. I think in cases like this, where it seems and the articles were short so it didn't talk too much about the relationship but if somebody, if you have somebody who knows somebody might come to hurt me, what can I do and who can I notify that this is a risk? And I think sometimes people are. They don't know. Like do I tell my employer? Like do I? Who do I tell?

Speaker 3: 40:17

And then, if you're a business owner and you know that that risk is present because you let people know, hey, we know that these risks can happen. If you're in danger, let us know, because then we may call the police and let them know like, hey, this person is in the process of getting a restraining order. They have a restraining order. Can you help patrol the area? If you may want to consider hiring security, you have to know that the risk exists first, which means you have to tell people if you're in danger. Here's the process for that, here's how you let me know and here's what we can try to do to help you. And it's tough because, again, small businesses may not always have the resources. You may not have the resources to hire security but, like, can you, is there something that you can do? And that's really part of that. Going through that exercise to figure out what resources do I have, that's really part of that. Going through that exercise to figure out what resources do I have.

Speaker 2: 41:09

What can I do to make sure I shore up prevention efforts so I keep my tenants safe or my customers safe, whatever the case may be Right, because I mean, let's not forget and again this is more risk management aspect of it but this is something that adjusters do think of. Because we're adjusters, adjusters do think of, because we're adjusters, we've pretty much seen it all. I mean the insured could be sued for not providing a safe enough environment. So you know it's considered they are negligent and then you get liability tripped over into this kind of claim.

Speaker 2: 41:38

However, it's interesting that you're talking about these four kind of categories because when I teach at the Borough of Manhattan Community College, I have to take this workplace violence assessment training and one of the things that they talk about is the domestic violence.

Speaker 2: 41:59

And even if you are on a Zoom call and you see the threat of domestic violence, I mean it's obviously nowhere near you. It's the other person on a computer clear across town or in another state or whatever, but here's who you're supposed to report that to. Here's who you're supposed to report that to. And I know again for a fact, people A don't like adjusters Imagine that but B, you know we have had to, in my work, close and lock the door and then walk out to our cars in pairs because one particular adjuster has been threatened by an insured, by a claimant, by a vendor, by whomever. So it is again knowing, but this kind of strays from Dave's question. But violence is something that's pretty much prevalent, unfortunately, and by this time it's almost too late. So we're trying now to close the door before the horse gets out.

Speaker 3: 43:13

And I think that's both in Dave's scenario and in the different stories we're talking about. Violence is the cause of loss. So it really is. It comes down to what are you doing to protect your, your staff? And, unfortunately, I think it makes me sad to hear that about being the adjusters and walking out in pairs, because I think every adjuster has had that scenario where they work.

Speaker 3: 43:35

I, when I was an adjuster, I remember that you would have people who would call and make threats. Or one time we had a doctor call our office and say this patient has made a threat and I think it's, it's credible and I've called the police and you need to lock down. And we had a process in place because it was not unusual to get those threats. And for adjusters it's just awful because you know you're talking to somebody at a time in life when they are hurting right Financially, mentally, physically. However, that loss has impacted them, but you're the person they're talking to. So sometimes you're the messenger and you're the person they're angry with and it's and nobody really talks about. I think there should be more awareness of the impact of adjust on adjusters to have to be in that environment and have to. I'm glad that there's more remote work now.

Speaker 3: 44:27

Back when I worked in in office as an adjuster, they knew where you were. Your address was on all of the letterhead. They knew where to you know show. Sometimes we would have people show up and wait in the parking lot, wait in the lobby. They wanted to. It was. I mean, it's scary, it's scary.

Speaker 3: 44:44

I'm definitely glad now we're kind of everybody's remote and your location is confidential, sometimes hidden, sometimes, though it just depends.

Speaker 2: 44:54

I won't get into it, but you know, however, you, you bring up a very good point and we're and we're going to we're going to wrap up here in just a second. So our next podcast we're going to be talking about adjuster superheroes and like what superpowers we need, but the one after that it'll be airing on July 17th. This is actually your idea and I love the idea, and it is how to have those hard conversations. You know how to, how to express that sympathy, how to have these soft skills, and I and I love that idea, because a lot of what we are talking about is, like we've said, unfortunately, that horse is out of the barn.

Speaker 2: 45:40

There's nothing we as adjusters can do. So now we kind of have to do I guess you know the damage control of getting people to hear us, and they don't want to hear bad news. Nobody does, nobody does, nobody does. I mean you know and and so we just have to reinforce that kind of harsh truth that insurance can't fix everything.

Speaker 2: 46:07

Unfortunately, there are coverages out there, don't get me wrong. You know, but I don't think the average everyday person could get that kind of coverage, get that kind of coverage, yeah, you know. And then encourage your adjusters or you to reach out to maybe the agent and see if there's something that the agent or the risk manager can do, because I think and I've said it before, I'll say it a billion times more you know your position, sandy, is so helpful to me as an adjuster, especially when I'm having difficulty with the insured because they trust you. Right, I'm just the one who quote, denies their claims, end of quote. You know so sometimes it just it just works out that way. So, yeah, anything else that you want to add to this thing.

Speaker 3: 47:09

No, I think we covered a lot. I'm glad we talked all these points. I think, even though this was originally a kind of a scenario of loss of rental income from a tragic loss of rental income from a tragic but not an, you know, not a common event that you would think of for rental properties, it kind of went into this pathway of violence as a cause of loss and what that means for insurers. So it was. It was a good discussion, so great, great question. Dave, Thank you for sending that in.

Speaker 2: 47:37

Yes, absolutely. And and y'all be sure to send in questions, we love them, we, we will answer them. And if we don be sure to send in questions, we love them, we will answer them, and if we don't know the answer, we will make something up. Yeah, we will not know the difference, because we are that good. So, yeah, so again in in two weeks, like July 3, we're gonna be talking about what superheroes adjusters are, and then, on the 17th, we'll be talking about those hard conversations that we're going to be doing, and that's your idea. So, hey, have a great week and we'll see you later.

Speaker 3: 48:14

You too Take care. Bye.

Speaker 1: 48:16

Bye. Thanks for joining us on the Art of Adjusting podcast, where we talk about life as an insurance adjuster.

Speaker 2: 48:23

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Speaker 1: 48:31

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Speaker 2: 48:49

In the meantime, you can contact me at theartofadjustingcom for consulting and training purposes.