Episode 32: Succession Sidelined. River Vista Farms' Melissa Yerxa Ortiz Shares Her Difficult Decision to Leave the Family Business.

Can family loyalty coexist with personal fulfillment in a family business? What happens when the family legacy is upended by a choice to leave? And when that choice is made by a woman or daughter vs a son? Join us for a heartfelt conversation with Melissa Ortiz of River Vista Farms as we unravel the emotional complexities of returning to family-run enterprises. Through candid storytelling, we examine the challenges of stepping into roles shaped by generational expectations and how these experiences can lead to the difficult decision to step away. This episode promises to deliver insights on balancing family ties with personal aspirations, offering guidance for those navigating similar paths.

Melissa and I reflect on the wisdom handed down by our family members and the courageous journey of implementing change in traditional business environments. We share stories of embracing modern tools and strategies to breathe new life into family businesses, from digital systems to employee wellness programs. These experiences highlight the importance of aligning one's skills and passions with their professional roles and how this alignment—or lack thereof—can impact personal well-being and relationships as well as the family business itself.

Throughout the episode, we explore the delicate dance of communication and legacy within family enterprises. We touch on the value and power of open dialogues and the courage needed to pursue paths that truly resonate with one's individual dreams. Whether you're part of a family business or simply intrigued by the dynamics of these unique ventures and how a woman's role in them can be difficult, you'll find our discussion underscores the lasting value of prioritizing personal growth and familial harmony over traditional notions of business success.


CHAPTER SUMMARIES
(00:00) Navigating Family Business Challenges
Family business members discuss the emotional journey of returning to and leaving a family business, highlighting the tension between loyalty and personal fulfillment.

(11:36) Returning to Family Business Legacy
Returning to a family business in Colusa, California, reflecting on childhood experiences, navigating dynamics and challenges, and fostering a thriving work environment.

(18:01) Navigating Family Business Leadership
Returning to a family-run agricultural business in California, navigating HR compliance, and balancing personal fulfillment with family loyalty.

(32:13) Implementing Digital Systems for Family Business
Nature's challenges and successes in implementing the H-2A worker visa program on a ranch, utilizing familial connections and transitioning to digital processes.

(42:03) Entrepreneurial Vision in Family Business
Transitioning from traditional to digital marketing, facing resistance, prioritizing employee wellness, and community support in a family business.

(46:56) Navigating Family Business Succession
Returning to hometown, balancing family loyalty and personal fulfillment, facing financial pressures, and transitioning to align with passions.

(54:23) Balancing Family Business and Relationships
Family business complexities, stepping away for improved relationships, challenges of change, prioritizing personal well-being and relationships.

(01:02:20) Family Business Communication and Legacy
Communication, education, work-life balance, and parental expectations in family businesses and the importance of open dialogues.

To learn more about the Capital Region Family Business Center visit our website HERE

Transcript

00:00 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Join us for the Capital Region Family Business Center's Generations Conference on February 27, 2025. This interactive one-day event is crafted specifically for family-owned businesses, offering three impactful keynotes, six breakout sessions and a legislative update from the Family Business Association of California. It's a unique opportunity for family members, non-family managers and future leaders to connect and dive deep into the challenges of family business leadership, management and succession. I have to say it is one of the most valuable events I've personally attended as a family business member. Don't miss out. Register today at capfamilybizorg. That's capfamilybizorg. 

00:51 - Steve Fleming (Ad)
Hi, my name is Steve Fleming, CEO of River City Bank, which was founded almost 50 years ago. As a leader in a family business myself and a longtime board member for the Capital Region Family Business Center, I understand firsthand how incredibly important family businesses are to our economy and the unique challenges they face in sustaining from generation to generation. I think that you will find this podcast series informative, entertaining and even humorous at times. That's why our family business, River City Bank, is proud to support this podcast. I hope you enjoy today's episode. 

01:30 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I felt like I had to choose between family loyalty and personal satisfaction, and that felt like a rock and a hard place, because neither of them felt like fair to me and not fair to them. I like big ideas, I like strategies, I like connection with people, but I needed to be doing. You know, if you're working with somebody's compensation, you darn well better have an eye for detail. And so then I, of course, was making mistakes, which then brought huge shame upon me and, you know, by extension, I felt my family. 

02:07 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Hello and welcome to A Seat at the Table Trials and Triumphs of Family Business, brought to you by the Capital Region Family Business Center, helping family businesses to grow and prosper. I'm Natalie Mariani-Kling, your host and a fourth-generation family business member. I am so excited to join you around the table for real conversations about what it's like to grow up in, become a part of, and navigate the complexities of, a family business. Special thanks to another family business, river City Bank, for their generous support of this program. 

02:44
On today's episode we speak with Melissa Ortiz of River Vista Farms, fifth generation farming family. Today's conversation is a little bit different than most of our episodes because it weaves together our personal stories about the love and joy of coming home to a family business and the pain and difficulty in ultimately choosing to leave. Melissa and I have an authentic conversation about what it is to love your family and to also realize that maybe the family business isn't the right decision for you. It's raw, it's honest and I thank Melissa for being willing to have it. We hope it can be a resource for other family business owners who may find themselves in the tension between family loyalty and choosing what's right for themselves. Welcome, melissa. 

03:33 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Thank you. 

03:34 - Natalie Kling (Host)
So today we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to have a little more of a personal conversation than we usually do on this podcast, because, as you and I were talking to prepare for this episode, we realized that we had had a similar journey and that if we had had similar journeys within our own family businesses, that we probably weren't alone, that it wasn't isolated, and so we felt like maybe there would be some value in having a really open and honest conversation about our experiences. To kind of summarize, we had both chosen to do things outside of our family businesses and then we both chose to come quote home with the idea that we wanted to work with our families and help to take our family businesses to the next level. We both joined our respective companies and then, eventually, we both left, and today we want to have an honest conversation about why. Why did we leave? Because it was very difficult it still is and because my heart is like pounding, and because there are, you know, these are the kinds of challenges that don't get talked about, both within families and within family business owners, and that lack of communication around it can lead to very difficult family dynamics. 

04:57
So our intention in this episode is to be honest and respectful in both what we share and how we share it. Respectful in both what we share and how we share it. We certainly don't want to pull skeletons out of the closet where they shouldn't be or wouldn't be respectful to do so, and we want to be able to share our experiences truthfully and honestly. So that's what we're going to attempt. So, melissa, before we dive in, can you introduce River Vista Farms how it began and what it looks like today? It would be my pleasure. 

05:27 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
And I'd love to start even just by saying what a shame that this conversation isn't happening at the dinner table. It's scary and it's vulnerable, and a lot of times we don't go there with the people we love most, and so my heart is also pending. So here we go with the people we love most, and so my heart is also pending. So here we go. So River Vista Farms is really the most recent iteration of a fifth generation family farming operation in Colusa and throughout the generations there's certainly been highs and lows of where we've been in the operation. And you know, at one point my grandfather was the chairman of the board of Sunsweet and Diamond Walnuts when they were paired together. So very high expectations. Both my grandfather and my grandmother went to Berkeley, so very high expectations of you know this isn't just overalls and hard work. There's a business component to this and professionalism that comes with it. 

06:20
And you know, as I was thinking about this conversation about the background, I think a lot of it has to do with a family legacy of high expectations, to the point that it wasn't. If you're going to college, it's where it's not. Are you going to do something great, it's what? To the point that my grandmother, virginia, if anyone knew her, was the most charming woman I've ever met. My daughter is named after her and she would do this thing at Thanksgiving dinner where she'd be working on her Christmas letter, and she wanted to know what all the grandkids were up to and her sons and daughters, nieces and nephews, and she would turn these things like I. 

06:54
You know, I ran a 5K to Melissa, ran a marathon. She's just amazing. You just can't even understand. And it wasn't this. I need you to be better, it was just. I just think you're so wonderful and I think the whole world should do, and it was just this. 

07:06
So she was so extravagant with her words and I think it does pave the way for an expectation of what you will do with your life, and so I think that's the legacy as much as the business and I would say present day. You know we've got 15 different crops that we're growing. Somebody mentioned to us one day that we're maybe over diversified, that we've maybe taken it a little far with this crop mix. We farm on 20 different ranches around Colusa County, kind of around a 30-mile radius, with about 40 employees. So there's a lot of guys and equipment and logistics moving constantly and right now my parents and my brother are full-time in the business and right now my parents and my brother are full time in the business and my husband and I are kind of on the sidelines playing support roles and tech support and filling in the gaps where we can. 

07:52 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Do you and your husband have? Are you employed by the company? We are not Okay, so you're supporting it in ways that you can support it where that works for you guys. 

08:04 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
We have been full-time multiple times. When we moved back from Texas, my husband had owned an IT company, a managed service IT company. And when we moved back, our main foreman said to my dad so we both made the decision to work full-time on the farm Because if this is my legacy, we better darn well know inside and out how it works and how to be good team members and stewards of that asset. And our main foreman said to my dad so you're sending me a 36-year-old IT guy and you want me to do what with him? My dad's like no, you'll figure it out. It may work, it might not. No hard feelings if it doesn't, but let's give it a try. And by the time he left the ranch the first time, he was the foreman's favorite guy. He's like please don't leave. I wish you would stay. Every time he would see me, he's like OK, so when's Antonio coming back? 

08:55 - Natalie Kling (Host)
And it was very very complimentary. Wow, yeah, that's the ultimate compliment because when you feel, when you come back to the company and you are an owner, it's a really interesting thing to navigate because you want to be very humble and really add value and be of service, you're aware that you don't want people to think of you as an owner. You want them to think of you as an employee. Productive team member yeah, yeah, exactly as a team member, yeah, yeah. So what about yours? Tell as a team? 

09:25 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
member. Yeah, yeah. So what about yours? Tell me a little bit about your family legacy. 

09:29 - Natalie Kling (Host)
So I am fourth generation of a dried fruit business. My great grandfather came from Croatia. He landed in what is now Silicon Valley. He actually followed his high school sweetheart over here and then worked for her father on his orchard and then saved enough money to make a down payment on his own orchard and started Marianne. We were in frozen cherries, frozen fruit and then dried fruit, and then my grandfather took it internationally and my dad has been CEO for over 40 years and and so I had gone out and, you know, done a bunch of things and then come back really I mean several times, to like you and then really came back full force when we really realized that the third generation was handing the company down to the fourth generation, generation was handing the company down to the fourth generation and, like you, I really felt this huge surge of responsibility that if I was going to be an owner, then I was a steward and I love that word, he used it too. 

10:36
I felt so responsible and I really wanted to come back and sit with my family. I have three brothers who had worked in the company, two of them for 20 years, and my cousins who had worked there all their lives you know 40 years, and I wanted to sit down with them and be able to say, okay, guys, what are we going to do for the next 20 years? Next 20 years, like here we go, like this is, this is landing in our laps. We are so fortunate and now we better have a vision, right, because it was, I mean, my grandfather, my great grandfather, my grandfather, I mean they, they were kind of in survival mode, like they just did it. And then my dad, he says he always felt in survival mode too, but he really grew it in to such a degree because he had a very natural sense of a vision and and a marketing perspective. 

11:31
And then, and now it's up to us. So what are we going to do with that? So that's where. That's kind of. When I joined, that was, you know, five, five years ago. And then so, so tell me, so I'll, so I'll jump back to you. Tell me what made you come home to your family business and what opportunities did you see? 

11:53 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
So I think the opportunity was less financial and business driven and more connection driven, because growing up, the grandmother I described was a daily part of my life. We lived in Colusa. She was in Colusa. She lived between kind of all the schools and so I often ended up at her house in the afternoon. I was the oldest of all the grandchildren, so I got this special connection an extra time and I knew her. She was, she's with me every day. She's such a part of my daily life and she's been gone since 2009. Wow, since 2009. And I wanted desperately for my children to have that connection to my parents, because they're so dynamic, they're hardworking, they're pretty committed to the ranch, so getting away is hard for them. 

12:34
So us being home was always kind of part of my dream to the point that when I was in College Station, texas, finishing my graduate degree at Texas A&M in business, I met my husband and we started dating, and within the first week, natalie, I said so I'm going to raise my kids in this tiny farm town in California, and if that doesn't work for you, that's OK, but we should part ways now. 

13:00 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Good for you. 

13:01 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
So clear At this point. I had a spreadsheet of the guys I had dated and the qualities I was looking for, like I was not messing around, I had a plan, and he kind of went I mean, that's probably fine, and he owned a business in College Station. He's like, okay, here's this blonde girl from California, which was basically how it was classified in Texas. So that was my fairy tale. I wanted to be home. I love Colusa. It's so safe, it's so connected. There's only 5,000 people there and it just feels like a really warm place. And so that's really what I was seeking, more than the business piece. The business piece was, I felt, a responsibility to understand. We had employees at that point who had been with us since 1953. 

13:43 - Steve Fleming (Ad)
Wow and. 

13:45 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I mean legacy brothers and their sons, and this was an extension of our family. 

13:50
So when I do a, I'm actually speaking at the Family Business Conference in February, and what the session is nepotism do it right or not at all? And when we think about nepotism, we think about family. But it's not just family, it's loyalty. It's these family members that we hire and we have, you know, maybe two brothers working for us, and one of them is amazing and one of them is maybe not the best fit, but we feel loyalty to both of them and so that plays out differently. So that that was, I think, a responsibility I felt to make sure that they wouldn't be left without, you know, I say a home, but a stable workplace, and all my expertise was in workplace dynamics, in human capital, in employee engagement and making sure people were the right fit for the seat that they were in to utilize their talents, so they could thrive and grow. So I was like you can apply that to any business and I lived on the ranch, I worked on the ranch and such a tangible expression of all of that work. 

14:50
So, yeah, I think I came home for connection, to be close to family, that it wasn't just Christmas and Easter that my kids knew my parents. 

15:00 - Natalie Kling (Host)
And did you? When you came back and you started working in the company, what changes did you want to make? What vision did you have? Did you see opportunities that you could bring your skills and values and make it better? 

15:17 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
how my parents were running the business. When I had worked in the business I had done separate individual jobs and so, coming into it, I had been running my own business in Texas and sold my shares in that before I left and came back to the ranch, and so it was a really interesting dynamic to go from I was in charge to I was not in charge. 

15:40
And I was like two levels down from being in charge, but I'm very used to being. It's my personality. I'm my father. It's very odd in my family because I look and sound exactly like my mother to the point. My father can't tell us apart on the phone. Can't identify yourself, melissa, because I don't know who I'm speaking to, really, really. But I act more like my dad. 

16:02
I'm much more direct, I'm much more intense. I'm not a peacemaker. My mother's a middle child and she wants everyone to be happy. Family harmony is really important. I want to solve problems. I'm like rip off the scab, let's figure out. Yeah, let's make it work. And so that was definitely a challenge, but I think it was getting in the business and figuring out. My mom said this, setting expectations. When I came back, she said here's a deal. I need you to give it a year. I don't want you to change everything. I want you to see an entire business cycle and I want you to see how things work and then we can talk about your ideas to change things. And I thought that's fair. 

16:35
Because until I, have context and I see how everything works. Who am I to make changes anyway, right, so I? 

16:42 - Steve Fleming (Ad)
thought that was a very wise gift. 

16:44 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Yeah, she's very sage and she knew you, she knew me the best and the worst. But now that's so awesome. 

16:51 - Natalie Kling (Host)
I mean it's so cool in a way to be seen like that, you know, and obviously she appreciates your gifts too, I'm sure. So that's interesting, that's very cool. So when you came back, your dad and your brother were working in the company. How did they react when you started to work there? 

17:10 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
My dad has set this mentality and I think as kids he kind of pushed us away from the business. He's like go do something else. There's so much in the world, go do something else. There was never a request, an expectation that we come back so pretty funny that we're both back right, an expectation that we come back, so pretty funny that we're both back right Physically and involved in the business at some degree. And it was kind of like a you do you, you're an adult, pick your thing. 

17:33
I'm not going to meddle, I'm not going to help, like just you, do, you, I'm doing my thing, I'm busy and you do you, and so I think that for my dad and my brother, it was somewhere between neutral and positive, like OK, so you're here, you made the choice. Great, my mom, I think it was a relief. She really needed somebody to help in the office, and so and for my dad it was like thank you, mom doesn't need to be working till 930 or 10 at night in the office just to get the bills paid. 

18:01
And the basics and that was at a time we came back in 2015. And if you're familiar with, I guess, employment at all in California, but ag especially, the regulations were amping up exponentially every year the food safety programs and all the HR requirements and safety expectations and harassment, and it was pretty overwhelming for my mom to do all, just cover all the bases and make sure we were operating legally. 

18:28 - Natalie Kling (Host)
So the timing was good and that was some of your background. You had some background in all that. 

18:34 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Yes, but all the HR I had done was more strategic, not tactical. I wasn't doing payroll, I wasn't doing compliance or audits, and so I had a lot to learn too. Wow. 

18:44 - Steve Fleming (Ad)
So I got. 

18:45 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I got to see the other side of the work I had been doing, which is a great asset, but also a validation of that wasn't work that I actually was excited about, unfortunately that's hard work. 

18:58 - Natalie Kling (Host)
That's hard work. It's very detailed and it's so changing, as you just said, all the time it's nonstop. So on it, yeah, and it's so changing as you just said all the time oh, it's nonstop and you have to be, so on it. 

19:07 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Yeah, and as a small business, to be working in the business and we're all busy being busy to have your heads up and say, okay, legally, what's changing in California? How do I need to change the way we cover our bases? It is so important to have partners and conduits right to get that information through. That's right. 

19:25 - Natalie Kling (Host)
So did you end up hiring somebody that could do more of that, or how did you guys navigate that? 

19:31 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
That was kind of the when I left situation, because I just did it, it was what needed doing and it was so interesting being a person who my whole world had been right people, right seats, and I knew viscerally I was the wrong person in this seat, that's so awesome, but every day. 

19:47
I felt like I had to choose between family loyalty and personal satisfaction, and that felt like a rock and a hard place, because neither of them felt like a fair what is either fair to me and not fair to them, or fair to them and hard for me. Yeah, because I'm not inherently detailed. I like big ideas, I like strategies, I like connection with people, but I needed to be doing. You know, if you're working with somebody's compensation, you darn well better have an eye for detail. And so then I, of course, was making mistakes, which then brought huge shame upon me and you know, by extension, I felt my family. And then, you know, I rushed to fix it. But I knew in my heart it wasn't the work I was supposed to be doing, but it was what needed doing. And so when I think about where I thrive, it's not sitting still, it's out and about. 

20:37
Well, there's a lot of that to do on the farm, but that wasn't the work that needed doing. And that wasn't in my dad's eyes. You're a girl and you have children and you need to be available to them, so you couldn't possibly do the work we're doing 70 hours a week, so that's a non-starter. But you know, when it's harvest and we get behind, we'll pull you out to run a prune harvester or run a water truck or whatever, which were my favorite days of the year. But that wasn't the norm. So I was like, oh, I'll go get parts. I can run to Sacramento, I can do, I'll be a gopher. But the challenge of coming from running my own business at a high level and the compensation that came with that to doing the work that needed doing for the compensation that was appropriate for that role, all of those things were friction. 

21:20
And nobody's fault but definitely caused friction. That was, you know, as we talked about at the beginning, really hard to talk about because are you ungrateful, Are you too good for this role? That's. 

21:31 - Natalie Kling (Host)
It's so true and you know, it's interesting because our parent we didn't hear our parents having those conversations because they just did it and maybe at well I can say my own experience. I mean, my dad has been very good about delegating, so he's always found the right person to do the right thing. So, if I think back on it, he was able to own. What you're saying is you know what? I'm not good at that. It needs to be done. I'm not good at it. Let's find the right person, and my mom would just do it. But ultimately to you know, I don't think that that always served her either, because if you, if you agree to that out of loyalty, then you exhaust yourself at some point. I call it an energy tax. Yeah. 

22:16 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
It taxes you every day to any any stretch you make from your natural set point. You can do it Absolutely. It just costs you and you get home and you're just kind of done. There's not a lot of energy left to make dinner or interact with your children, or you're just trying every day to be what you need to be, to not let anyone around you down and to perform the demands of the role, and that's probably motherhood in a nutshell. 

22:40
But when you add that to what's going on at work, that can be really challenging. So I mean I'll turn it back to you. When you came home to the operation, when you made that switch, how were you received in the mix? 

22:52 - Natalie Kling (Host)
It was interesting. My dad was thrilled, you know, and we've always had, I think, a really good working relationship and great conversation, and so, like that part was easy and he believed in me and I knew that. So that was very welcoming. I had siblings who had worked there for a long time and had, you know, were at different stages of their enjoyment of it, feeling, I think, passionate about it or not, you know, really going through their own journeys, and I think it was a little bit like a huh, who's this? You know, like, oh, really, you're coming in, oh, okay, that's interesting, that's interesting, you know. 

23:38
And so immediately I had to really stand in my own courage and truth because there wasn't a bunch of family members around me going yes, we're so glad you're here, this is awesome, it's going to be even better, you know. And so I was like, well, I'm going to do it anyways, I'm going to come back anyways and I'm going to do what I believe I can do here. And I'm just was so hard. It was so hard and also like one of the best lessons I've had thus far in my life, because when you can't count on the people around you, you have to count on yourself. 

24:34 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
You figure it out. 

24:35 - Natalie Kling (Host)
You figure it out, yeah, and I also really felt like, well, this is my responsibility too, it's all of our responsibilities, and, whether people want me here or not, I'm gonna. 

24:45
I'm gonna pick up my piece of the responsibility and do what I can do. 

24:50
So, yeah, it was not easy and also thrilling to be back, thrilling to like be a part of this incredible. I always think of it as, like this incredible ship that my grandfather, my great grandfather, my dad and my cousins, like everyone, has built this ship. And then I got to, like step on the ship and I got to go below the ship and like thank all these people that were working the machinery and the you know and scrubbing the decks and like repairing the wood paneling and like and we were doing this together and it was that was such a thrill to be a part of and to feel that level of like my God, this is ours, this is ours and we get to be a part of it and like lock arms with all these people who have been working with and for our family for so long. It just felt like such an honor in that way and so just unique and beautiful, and I was so grateful, you know to have this place to come home to. 

25:51 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
It's interesting you say that about the below the decks. It's amazing how much pride those folks take when you come home, because it's this, it's new energy, it's stability for them. You know, before my brother and I came back, you know our team was like who's where's this headed? Is it over? Is your dad going to sell it all and just lay us off? 

26:17 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Yes. 

26:17 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
But that confidence for them is so important. And then if you comport yourself as an actual good team member and hard worker and not a silver spoon in your mouth, they, the respect is so palpable, yeah, yeah. 

26:33 - Steve Fleming (Ad)
Thank you. 

26:33 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Thank you for working as hard as I do. You're just as dirty as I am today. 

26:38 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that, that that camaraderie and connection is so fulfilling. It is, yeah, and you're right. I think I did feel that I mean I came in, you know, and I can't do anything half-assed, so like I come in and like with my whole self, you know, all my energy and all my emotion and all my excitement and all my ideas and visions, and probably part of the reason my siblings were like whoa wait, but but I mean, that's how I show up in the world. So that's how I showed up and and I think there was a lot of I I felt more welcomed by the employees, for sure. Yeah, they were they were awesome. 

27:13 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I call that the muchness. Natalie, you had the muchness and we were like whoa. 

27:18 - Natalie Kling (Host)
It's a lot of much. It's a lot of much, yeah. 

27:22 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Yes, I am similarly blessed and cursed with the muchness and it's like, oh wow, she's a lot. 

27:28 - Natalie Kling (Host)
But it's so funny because when I meet people like you, I love that Like I love the intensity, I love the passion, because it's passion for life, that's what it is, and so, and then it permeates through everything and there's so much energy in it. So I just want to acknowledge and say I'm grateful, for no one's going to do it for you. 

27:49 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
You have to figure this out that we grow up with, and so that's on us like a mantle. But it's also that's the basic expectation, so you don't ever feel like anyone's going to come rescue you. And so I feel like it, probably among family, business, legacy, children, that intensity must. I would expect it to be more intense than the rest of the population, because we've seen it, we've lived it, we know what it looks like when it gets bad. Celebrating the wins always feels a little short-lived because it's like, okay, what's going to happen next? You? 

28:36 - Natalie Kling (Host)
know that's a really good point and I think you're right because and I think it goes back to something you said earlier, which is it's hard to not be great in a family where you come from greatness. You know, like we have, we have had all these previous generations make something out of nothing and it survives, which is like if you you look at the business statistics, we all know that barely any of them make it, but it's survived. Not only survived, but survived multi generations. So that level of that's a level of success, and it doesn't mean financial success, it just means it means that they've created a place for employees, for a growth, for products, for services, for things that like outlast us as people. And then you come into this groove, this family, and you're like whoa. So that's the option. 

29:32 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I better do that or I have to choose to let it die and that legacy expectation, whether it's state even if it's stated as go away, go do something else, is like but is it going to die on my watch? Am? 

29:46 - Steve Fleming (Ad)
I going to allow that to happen? 

29:47 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
That is a heavy, hard, scary question, humiliating, yes. 

29:52 - Natalie Kling (Host)
It's humiliating. Oh, it was you. You were the one who killed it. 

29:55 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Congratulations. 

29:56 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Yeah, yeah. 

30:17 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
And you cannot help but feel like, oh well, I'll call it shame and expectation that, yes, okay, well, no one else is going to do it. Who's going to figure this out? 

30:27 - Natalie Kling (Host)
And even if you decide to go a different direction, you know, even if you have family members that carry it on and you go a different direction, there's still an expectation, I think we probably carry in ourselves of being as great. You know, like what am I going to do? Like I better start my own company. I mean, to me that was the only other option is like I better be a business owner. You know, I can't go work for someone else. 

30:48 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
When I've been, when, when I've seen everybody above me be an owner and a leader, but also you have this ownership mentality that when you do go to work for someone else, you're you're naturally trying to make things better and take charge of things that aren't really yours to take charge of. So then you kind of oust yourself and you're like, well, maybe I'm not a really great employee because I have such an ownership mindset. That's maybe a little too much Totally totally. 

31:13 - Natalie Kling (Host)
I've always felt that. I've always felt like man, what's wrong with me, that I can't be a good, that I can't work for someone else, but it's. I think it's more of this, it's more of just you know what it is to have an ownership mentality, and it's difficult to be in a position where you don't just live that, you don't just like carry, that you know, cause you're naturally wired that way, it's so interesting To go fix the problems. Yeah, exactly, yeah, okay. So what kind of changes did you bring to the company and how were those changes received? 

31:50 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
So I gave that a little bit of thought and I think, because I was seated in the office, most of my changes came there. But also one of the things that I think the biggest change that has been a huge benefit for us was I would hear my dad at lunch every day griping about labor. There's not enough labor. We can't find good people to work. When we get contract labor, half the time they're on their way to or from the bathroom. We don't even know if we have the right numbers that they're billing us for. It's very complicated and the work quality was meh. 

32:13
And so I started looking into the H-2A worker visa program and for a while there was pushback. Like this is really complicated. We have to provide free housing. There are a lot of rules. What if we get it wrong and we get fines? But, like the message you keep giving me is not enough good people. 

32:32
And so the way we approached it, we worked with Western Growers and they were a great asset to help us do the legal side of it. But what we did is we recruited from within. We had guys on the ranch who had nephews, sons, cousins, wow. And so it became this self-policing program because it was the same family shame we feel about if we let it die. It's like, if you aren't a good worker, you're casting a shadow on me and, by God, you will be a good worker, you will have good behavior, you will stay in line. Wow, by God, you will be a good worker, you will have good behavior, you will stay in line. And it has been great for them because we're benefiting the people. We care about nepotism at work. We're benefiting them. They get safe passage to and from, which is not a given in the border crossing situation. They're making great money and they're being able to go home to their families, and so it's been. I guess we started in that in 2016 or 2017 and it has been a great program Wow. 

33:22 - Natalie Kling (Host)
For us. That's awesome. How long did it take to get? 

33:25 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
it ramped up. I want to say it was a full year of going back and forth, looking at the rules. We actually already had a permitted housing facility that we had built in the 50s and we always had a guy or two or three maybe that lived there. But we ramped it up to where there are 14 H-2A workers, 14 to 17 that go back and forth every year, and the guys we already have, and there's a kitchen there and bathing facilities and laundry facilities. So that's been. 

33:50 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Did you have to invest in ramping that unit? 

33:54 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
up? We did. We had to do some repairs, but we didn't have to build it from the ground up, which, with construction costs, was just a huge asset for us. That really was what made it possible. But the other things I did were really systems, processes, documentation in the office. I, with an MBA, I'm a lover of spreadsheets, so everything that was all paper, documented and added on the hand, you know the adding machine. I was like guys, this is dumb. It's time we need to put everything on spreadsheets, a lot of our historical information and then kind of organizing. I think my parents never really made the transition that, like you, organize your paper files in all these file folders and file drawers. It's the same concept with digital files, and so the digital files were named. Strangely, they were all over the place, and so I, you know, brought that all into line. 

34:37 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Oh my God, melissa, that is tedious, and so many hours, so many hours Not in my wheelhouse, and then the other thing because we do in ag. 

34:46 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
We do so many things once a year and it's like, oh God, how did we do that last year? Where are the documentations? And so they already had kind of the outline of a calendar of things that needed doing through the year. So I brought that kind of up to two or three levels higher. It was like here's what we do. Here's a link to the documentation and the process and the links of the and the passwords of all the things you need to get into to do the water reporting and the sediment and erosion control plans. There's just so much minutiae that you only do once a year, and so it's like where is this stuff? 

35:18
And so that, I think, was a huge asset, and God good for you, and so did your. 

35:25 - Natalie Kling (Host)
did your family recognize that that was really helpful, or was it? Is it still challenging for them to transition to a different system? 

35:35 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I think it was tolerated. It's like, almost like, I get it. We need to do this. I don't like it and I'm still going to use my adding machine on my desk, which is great. You have your tape and your adding machine and it's going to be the hearing, the click, click, clicking. But that's their comfort zone. Why should they change it? It works for them. But I need a spreadsheet where, if one number changes, all the other numbers change. That's more to do dumb stuff, and so it's like when we need a number, the old school way was go look through the files and find that number. I'm like I'm going to call the vendor, because the vendor has the number and it's their job to serve us, and like whoa. But if they think we don't have the numbers, they think we're efficient and they can look it up in their system. 

36:14
And so that was definitely a back and forth struggle, but I mean, to this day, if I need to find something documentation wise, I know exactly where it is. I have access to all the files. I can do it from my phone while I'm getting my hair cut. It's a different approach, right? 

36:31 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Well, and it sets you up to be able to go forward. It sets the company up to be able to go forward in a way that it can't if everything's still on paper. 

36:41 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
And it sure makes transition of jobs harder if everything is all only lives in your knowledge. 

36:46 - Natalie Kling (Host)
That's right. 

36:47 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Which, if you've been in charge for 50 years, you didn't care about because you're in charge Of course, that transition is much harder when it's all tribal knowledge. 

36:58 - Natalie Kling (Host)
That's right. And did you then sit down and train everybody, or how did that go? 

37:03 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I just kind of forced it on them honestly Like here's the information this is how we're doing it. 

37:10
Yeah, and I gave it the year right. I really understood what are we doing, and I tried to make it look as much like the paper versions they had as possible, so then it didn't feel like a huge shift. Yeah, and a lot of times the it was just, instead of teach me how to do it, just do it for me. And I was absolutely happy to do that because, in my view, our, our older generation, whatever generation that is, whether it's generation three, four, one the business that they built should serve them as long as they want, because it's their business. I love that, and so our job as NextGen is to fit in and support them. It is their business. 

37:49
That's right and at what point they decide they want to transition. That's their choice. It's not something I feel we have the freedom to force ourselves on them, because, while it is our legacy, they're the ones who put in the blood, sweat and tears. Amen, and so it's a it's an interesting thing to. 

38:06 - Natalie Kling (Host)
It is, and I think it's it's. This is a great example, because what you did, documentation wise, as we said, it sets the company up to go forward in a way that will ultimately benefit the business. May not be how they want to do it today, and, and and maybe to your point, that's okay, they can do it. They can keep their adding machine on their desk and, and they should be able to do that, and they weren't, and they didn't grow up with the computers and let alone a spreadsheet, which seems like a foreign language. So, yeah, so, so there's like a real sensitivity where you have to walk that line of like okay, I'm gonna do this because it's the right thing to do for the future of the company. And also, how do we create a nice soft, comfy bridge? 

38:49 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I'll make you a printed copy and you can mark it up and then I'll change it. It's gonna be great. 

38:55 - Natalie Kling (Host)
And then I'll just reenter all the information in the spreadsheet. 

38:57 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Thank you, my dad found this. I know this is off topic, but my dad found this Wall Street Journal article one time about tech support for your parents and how important it is to know when you've met your limits of your ability to do tech support for your parents, because the question they're asking is above your level, and so we joke about that being like OK. 

39:15
I can do this much and I know what needs doing, but I don't actually have the expertise to take this Like. My husband took our phones to voice over IP and that was definitely above my pay grade but he's an IT guy and so he was able to do that for the ranch. But yeah, it's always interesting. So lots of changes not all of them were accepted and we changed accounting systems to make it easier. 

39:37 - Natalie Kling (Host)
And since you've gone, have those changes stayed in place. 

39:41 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Yeah, it's great. I mean, the gal who took over my role has done things exactly as I laid them out. She's so much more talented than I am in the detail space. She loves it, she thrives on routine. She's been a godsend and she's so much better at my job than I ever was and I'm just internally grateful to her. She's an amazing team member, so I, like I, was able to create the systems and then she was able to just run them with a ball and to this day, I can go and just grab a piece of information about, you know, harvest numbers or anything, because she does it. She just does it so well. That's fantastic. 

40:34 - Natalie Kling (Host)
And that's fantastic trying to say, hey, we need a vision. You know, I really believed that we weren't going to if we didn't have a North Star. That was 10, 20 years out, we were just going to do more of the same and we wouldn't have that opportunity for growth in the way that we would if we had a North Star. 

40:54 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
So and give me context, natalie, is your dad full-time in the business still, or is this? Next gen has taken over? He is, so he is still CEO. 

41:02 - Natalie Kling (Host)
OK, and he doesn't. He's, he doesn't work in the office as much as he used to, but he he's, he still plays full time CEO. And my cousin, who is the president, he's really boots on the ground and running the organization organization day to day, running the operations, all of that. So so I came in and was like OK, guys, so where are we going to go? Where are we going to go from here? And oh, by the way, we should tell our story, because we have such an amazing family story, we're so blessed to have this story, and it's a story that our competition doesn't have and can't, you know, authentically tell. And so. 

41:43
But to tell your story, as you know, takes a lot of marketing dollars and a lot of marketing energy, commitment and resources and energy. And so I, so they were, they were very, I would say I have to give them a lot of credit for giving me that opportunity, because it was an opportunity that wasn't there before. I mean, our marketing went really before was as far as trade shows, you know, and packaging, and I was saying let's do PR, let's do social media campaigns, let's do so. 

42:14 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
You're saying you want to be a cost center. That's what I'm hearing, yeah. 

42:17 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Thank you, thank you, that's how I should have framed it upfront. Yeah, exactly, I'm going to add a new call center, exactly, exactly, but but I really believed we were so close. I mean, we are in in, in a lot of places, the second or third national brand, so we could level up. And it was an opera and it was a time that we could do it with social media, with these, with these tools that we never had before, you know, to be able to leverage, you know, pull some of those levers to really get ourselves to connect with the consumer, because we had never done that before. We had connected to the trade and we had awesome relationships with the trade and that's one of the things I'm just most honored that we're, that we do have is like what a beautiful thing that we've created relationships all over the world and and they're strong relationships, except with our consumer. So I was like, okay, we're gonna focus there, we're gonna tell our story, we're gonna have a North Star and remind me, you have a background in marketing or journalism or Not. 

43:19
Really, I mean, I graduated in philosophy, Okay, so you know that was super helpful with jobs Really sets you up for success. No, but I just kind of had a natural inclination for that and I could see it so clearly. I could see that, like, what we needed to do was get the right people on board to help us execute on these ideas. So they did give, they did give me the opportunity and I'm I was very grateful for that. And there wasn't passion behind it, you know, there wasn't a lot of belief, you know, or? 

44:00 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
That was your thing. 

44:02 - Natalie Kling (Host)
It was my thing, it was Natalie's thing, yeah, yeah, and I also started a wellness. I really felt like I really wanted to give back to our employees and I think we all did yeah, and so I started a wellness. I wouldn't call it. Like a program Thank you, a wellness program at the company, and that was also Natalie's thing. 

44:22 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
It was cute. I'm sort of envisioning them patting you on your head Like that's cute. 

44:25 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Yeah, yeah, that's how it felt. Yeah, it was cute. It was cute and. 

44:29 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I mean, it doesn't make it wrong, it's just like not my thing. 

44:31 - Natalie Kling (Host)
So rock on and I again, they were supportive. Nobody, no one was talking shit about it, you know I mean everyone was but it, but it wasn't. I just couldn't get everybody like to see, to really like believe and to and to act from that belief. And I and I just knew inherently that if we weren't all on that, it wasn't going to survive past us. You know it had to be something we were all behind, or or we weren't all on that. It wasn't going to survive past us. You know it had to be something we were all behind or we weren't. 

45:02 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Yeah, it's kind of a shared by all vision or it's going to be a flavor of the month, yeah exactly. However long you choose to champion it, Exactly exactly. 

45:13 - Natalie Kling (Host)
So so that was. I would say there was a lot of, again, a lot of opportunity that they gave me and and a lot of changes that were made and a lot of like, really, I think, beautiful things that people embraced, and also it was very isolating too, yeah. So, but I will say that there's a lot. I mean, the whole marketing thing is no longer there. They did not continue with the storytelling and all of that, which has been really hard to watch. But the wellness program is there and that feels good and, honestly, I care more about the employees than anything else, so that that feels good. 

45:47 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
You do it because it's right, not because it's easy, right, exactly, yeah, that's right. 

45:51 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Yeah, okay. So outside of your family, how did you feel that you and your vision for the company were received? 

46:01 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
It's the fairy tale right. People are so supportive. They're like this is great, You're coming home, your family needs you, they have a retirement plan. Now. There was so much encouragement from vendors, from peers, from my parents' friends and it's, I think, we, if you're in family business as a next gen whatever next gen means to you I think we've all had the experience of family friends telling you how great your parents think you are. And you look around and you look over your shoulder like really, I don't hear that. 

46:30
You're like, oh yeah, yeah, they're just so thrilled to have you and you're like I feel excellent support from outside the family and, of course, in a small town like Colusa, the value of having educated, enthusiastic, energetic people come back to the community. I mean, we struck gold on our timing. There were a lot of young families that were coming back to town with interesting backgrounds, Education had done really interesting things and when we moved back my husband said so like do you have a lot of friends in Colusa that we're going to have a friend group, or are we just going to hang out with your parents' friends? I said, oh, I don't know, We'll just figure it out. It's going to be fine, and we did. We made these lovely friends that we have a great network of community and there's energy in town. But we just kind of hit the timing right. 

47:27
So I think external it was very, very supportive. 

47:31 - Steve Fleming (Ad)
That's awesome. 

47:32 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
They see, what you see coming back was like oh, purpose and family connections and you're going to make an impact and family connections and you're going to make an impact. And the reality is, what you find is that there's conflict and there's personality challenges and yeah, I don't know Did you feel the same thing or was your experience different? 

47:49 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Same. Yeah, I felt so supported by the outside for sure. It was really very energizing and humbling to receive all of that. It was really beautiful, yeah. So, looking at our time here, let's jump to what made you start questioning whether it was the right thing to stay or go and what led to you leaving. 

48:12 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
So it was. I felt like I was failing them. When I think about the right people in the right seats, they get the benefit because they thrive and they're growing, but they're also performing, which benefits the organization and the seat I was in. While it was providing relief to my mom. It wasn't my best and highest use of my talents, and so I really felt this constant rub between am I doing work that I'm good at, that I can deliver good work, and am I doing this to be loyal to my family and I'm earning like less than a third of what I would earn in the marketplace, but I don't expect them to pay me anymore because that's the job I'm doing. So it was a lot of different factors and it actually there was. 

49:00
The universe intervened and made it a very quick decision because I, the business partnership I left in Texas, my partner actually defaulted on the loan and the bank called me and said you know how Jeff was supposed to take you off of the line of credit. I said yeah, and they said well, he never did. I said I know and they said it's time. I said yeah and they said well, he never did. I said I know and they said it's time. He kind of fell off the face of the earth and there are no more customers. He ran off his employees and your employees. 

49:29
And so there was this pile of debt in my lap and I went okay, well, I asked for a solution from the universe, and the universe has now provided and I need to be much more specific about. And so I sat down with my parents and I said here's this thing that's happening and I feel like I need to go deal with it, and will you give me the blessing to step away so I can go deal with this? And I actually have somebody in mind that I think would be really good for this job? And when I said the name, my mom said oh my God, I would have hired her if you never came home. I'm totally in alignment, let's go talk to her, oh my God. And so I stayed on in part-time capacity, training her for a year and made sure she knew all the systems because she was so much smarter than I was in many ways, and so that was a blessing. 

50:13
But it really was the universe forcing my hand that I had Now I could have just liquidated. I have a rental house. I hand that I had Now I could have just liquidated. I have a rental house. I could have liquidated a lot of things. But from an ego perspective. I was like, absolutely not, he's not going to take me down a notch, I'm going to figure out how to rebuild this. And I loved the business. I missed it and so it was kind of it was the catalyst I guess I needed, because I was languishing and I wasn't, I wasn't taking ownership of the way I probably needed to and I had young kids. So I'm like, well, I'm doing this for all my family, my up here family, my peers and my children. 

50:44
But it wasn't what was right for me and that was so gut wrenching to feel like I let them down Did they express that you let them down. No, they were so gracious about it. They, I think they understood the why, the financial why. They've never really understood what I do for work outside of the ranch. So I think there's sort of a black box around that and that's OK because it is a little esoteric, but they were incredibly gracious about it and I was very eternally grateful for that. 

51:15 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Yeah, that's awesome. Had you stayed, was there a role that you could have taken that would have been a better fit, or a role that you would have been allowed to have taken? 

51:28 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I don't think so. It's pretty well structured. I mean, we do all commodity development or commodity production, and there just wasn't a clear role, and so, aside from doing what my mom does, which I was kind of already doing, we were doing it in tandem, call ourselves interchangeable parts. 

51:46 - Natalie Kling (Host)
It's like whoever answered the phone, they could make the decision, they could get the information and it yeah, that was really hard because there wasn't a path, there wasn't a had you not been, had you not had your office role, would you have loved to have been farming? It's hard to know, maybe um it's interesting. 

52:08 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
When I developed the profile for like the ideal candidate, we replaced our main foreman on the ranch and we developed a profile of what our ideal candidate looked like and it was exactly like my profile in that it's called the predictive index and you can. It's a EEOC compliant hiring tool and a kind of like side eye monkey. I think no one's seeing this, which is fine, because I'm not there full time anymore and I don't have the knowledge. I don't have the mechanical knowledge. I wasn't. 

52:35
I wasn't prepped for that but I loved being on the ranch. It's the reward of physically seeing the work you've done every day. It's so awesome Whether it's you or you're running a crew that's doing that work. There's a visible success component that most of our white-collar jobs don't have. Yeah, that's right and I love it. But I love my family more and I love the legacy more and it was better for them, for me to step away and get out of the way so my brother could pursue that legacy and that's, you know, my. Really, I told him so many times my relationship with you is more important than our family legacy, because we are living it together and so many families that when the next generation, the older generation, dies, that falls apart at the current generation. 

53:21 - Natalie Kling (Host)
So you know, and we haven't really had a chance for you to talk to that, but I know you and your brother have a great relationship. Now, was it challenging when you were working together? 

53:33 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I think it's been challenging, partially because we're different in age. I'm six and a half years older, so I left home when he was like 11. And so knowing, learning each other as adults was an interesting thing. He has a very different love language. It's like if he makes people laugh, that's amazing for him. I'm much more serious, oldest child, more intense, and I'm less inclined for that. I'm quality time and acts of service, and so we've had challenges there, but I think I just so respect him as a person and a friend, and so finding our way through that I think was interesting, just very different approaches and I'm so much more my father and he's so much more my mother and just different approaches to take care of business. 

54:23 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Has, stepping away, improved your relationship. 

54:26 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Definitely Because it's not muddled right, it's not all the things all the time, it's not family and business and expectations and friendship and family dinners, and it gets to be. It's like an echo chamber. It's sometimes too much, because then you're always worried about letting someone down or hurting someone's feelings when you have your own life, and then you get to come together socially or even to solve problems in the business. 

54:51 - Steve Fleming (Ad)
It's a little bit easier. 

54:53 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
But, I think there's always a component and maybe you've felt this of when you leave the. You're not here all the time. How would you know? But I do know I see the forest for the time. 

55:02 - Natalie Kling (Host)
How would you know? But I do know and I can see the forest for the trees and that's a stinger. That's a stinger and you can see where it comes from. 

55:08 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Right, what's that? You can see where it comes from. 

55:11 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Oh yeah, absolutely, Absolutely. I always felt bad for the working members of the family when passive shareholders come in and ask questions, because it's very difficult and those passive shareholders have every right to ask questions and I totally understand how, when you're working in it every day and someone questions something, it feels like well, you don't know all the 25 things that need to happen for this one thing you know. So yeah, that's a challenging, that's an interesting one. 

55:44 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Yeah. What was the catalyst for you leaving, if I may? 

55:48 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Yeah, I mean, I came to the realization that this was not my game, it was their game. It was their game, it was their company, it was their vision, it was what they wanted. And sometimes, when I look back, I think, well, of course it was. I mean, they're the ones that built it, you know, and maybe it was, maybe it wasn't fair to go in Guns blazing what's that? Go in guns blazing what's that? Guns blazing, yeah, yeah, and and feel like I could. You know, I could just see so much possibility. 

56:31
It came from a really well-intentioned place and I could see things they couldn't see because fresh eyes, right, but and also, and also, it was there. They had been doing things the same way for a very long time, and to come in and and and want to change the game probably wasn't fair, you know, and it was also really difficult on the relationships, because I really loved these people and you know, still do and and to be in a room where you're really excited and you're bringing so much passion and excitement and clarity and vision to the boardroom and then to have it just be silent crickets, you know, over and over and over again, because and I think that came from a place of like they really didn't want to change. God bless them, you know. I mean, in some ways, God bless them, I get it. 

57:36
And also I felt like there was such a missed opportunity for the business and for the company and for the employees that it hurt. It was very painful all the time and I had to constantly tuck myself up and at some point, I remember, over the course of a few weeks, I remember the words kept coming up almost like from my subconscious. It was like this will kill you, this will kill you, and it would have, it would have killed my spirit, it would have killed my heart, I would have become physically not well. I mean, I already wasn't, you know, I already was was feeling that like I gave everything to it, so it, I was imbalanced. 

58:23 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
And it's such a recipe for resentment. 

58:25 - Natalie Kling (Host)
And then it of course. Of course it was not going to be, it was not going to end well. So I ended it and I think, honestly, you know, and my family actually moved out of the state, which I think was also really important for us, because we needed to really pull out of that dynamic as being a promise of connection and a promise of legacy and a promise of of doing something bigger than ourselves. It wasn't going to be that for me, it wasn't going to be that and and that hurts still to think about my God I, I wrestle with it all the time, but it is what it is. 

59:02 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I think it's. Family business is often a game of pick your battles, yeah, and you have to decide is this the hell I want to die on, is this the wedge I want to drive? And so often the family harmony wins out. 

59:16 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Yeah. 

59:17 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Or it doesn't and it drives incredible wedges. And so I think, as women, we often opt for you know what. I'll do something else. I don't want to be in the way. And is that right? I don't know, but it's you know what I will. 

59:34 - Natalie Kling (Host)
I think it is. I'll go ahead and say it is because it's choosing relationship and I swear to God on our deathbed, I don't think one person is going to regret. 

59:45 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
I wish I had fought harder with my siblings and cousins in the business, rather than enjoyed Thanksgiving dinner and had Exactly, Exactly. 

59:55 - Natalie Kling (Host)
I know I will never say to myself God damn it, why didn't I bring that marketing campaign? Why didn't I make that marketing campaign? Why didn't I make that marketing campaign stronger? You know what I mean. Like no, this is I. I want relationship and love. It's, it's everything. And I, I really believe that. And I, I think when that fuels your family business, it creates an incredible, miraculous thing, which is why we all still do it, which is why we all come back to it over and over again. But, but, if it, but, if it's sucking from the relationships, then it's yeah, I can say it's not worth it for me. 

01:00:29 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
It's really hard, I think, as as a family business, to want these people to come back, to want to find a spot for them and to be honest about when there's a good spot and when there isn't. And being, I mean, in our family. Growing up, you were allowed three emotions you could be happy, you could be mad, or you could be hungry, and if you're hungry, feed your face. I recognize that's not an actual emotion, but it was in our family. If you're mad, get over it, and if you're happy, that's where you should be, and there just wasn't a lot of room to feel the feels because we were busy and get tougher, and so that makes it hard to acknowledge when we have a right person, right seat issue or we have conflict that needs to be resolved. It's like just work harder, we'll get through it, that's right. 

01:01:13 - Natalie Kling (Host)
That's right. That's right, same same Happy we're only allowed. I mean, happiness is what you do, you know. So, yeah, it's very difficult to try to talk about anything else. And I mean I'll say I think this is a beautiful thing about women too. 

01:01:28
I think oftentimes women can see things from so many different angles, so I can always go back and see why I understand. I understand why they're seeing it that way, and I love the quote. You know, if I believed what they believed, I would do and say what they do and say, right, like you can't do it any other way if you believe what. So I, I do have a tremendous compassion and and also I think this is another sort of talent of women often is that we can hold all of it. You know, we can hold the pain and the tension between the pain and the love, and it doesn't have to be one or the other. Yeah, and it's uncomfortable. It's more uncomfortable to do that because and then everyone else gets to be in the love. They just act like they have the love and you're like, oh, that must be nice. 

01:02:16 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
That must be nice, do they not see? What I see Are they not feeling what. 

01:02:20
I'm feeling yeah, so you've heard the analogy, haven't you, that a man's brain has a bunch of boxes and every box has its own topic, and when they want to be in that topic, they open the box and they are in the topic, and then they put the box away and none of the boxes touch each other. But in a woman's brain it's all this, like spaghetti mangle, and everything's touching everything else, and everything affects everything else, and and everything affects everything else. And so that's why we can hold it all, because we're like, yeah, everything, everything's connected to everything Of course we're like duh and the men are like. 

01:02:46
that's not what we're talking about right now. 

01:02:50 - Natalie Kling (Host)
And we're like, of course it is. That's amazing. Yeah, I see a lot of truth in that. We'll finish with this and we usually have some other questions. But because this podcast, this episode, is so unique, I would like to just ask you how your experience has impacted how you'll communicate to your kids as they become adults. How will you communicate family business? 

01:03:14 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
That's such a hard one. 

01:03:15
I think the more we paint it as reality and not a fairy tale, I think the more we paint it as reality and not a fairy tale, the better we set them up and the better we train them to stand their ground in terms of who they are, what they have to offer, where they can contribute, the more they work in the business. One of the things like we never did at least I didn't FFA or 4-H or anything my dad is like I can teach you about ag later, and so I think there were some foundational pieces that I could have really enjoyed, but he wanted to make sure I had the richness of all the rest of life and didn't pigeonhole myself, which absolutely understandable. So what will I teach them? That they have to live their own lives, that it's OK that they're loved, no matter what, what direction they go, and that's definitely the message I received, and when I made some really hard choices, it was backed up 100% by behavior Maybe a little confusion, but love and understanding and acceptance were the norm, and it was really scary. 

01:04:18
It was really scary to go there. So just having that trust and openness and the fact that they're the priority above all else, like one thing I really want to impress upon my children is like work can be great, work can be rewarding, work can be fun and interesting and not a drudgery. I never say I have to go to work, I have to travel for this client, I have to do these things, like, oh, mommy gets to go do these things and I'm a better mom because I work. I'm a better mom because I have interesting conversations during the day that I can be more present for you at night. I want them to know about work as much as family business because no matter where they go whether they're in a family business, build a family business or in our family business I think my brother would certainly welcome them if they wanted to do that but they have to live their own lives, talents, opportunities and never feel obligated as much as that. It's going to exist anyway. It just is. 

01:05:11 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Yeah, but I think the two things that I hear you saying are education and communication. Educating them on the realities of it, on the legacy of it, on all the what it's really like to be a part of it, on the legacy of it, on all the what it's really like to be a part of it, and the communication of teaching them how to speak for themselves, how to be honest, how to have respectful conflict, all of that I mean. I feel the same way. I've learned so much. I've learned so much. I would never say that I regretted going back and and or regretted leaving, because it's given me so much insight and hopefully that's the legacy. You know, that's a big part of the legacy you can hand down to your kids. 

01:05:54 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Courage Do a hard thing. You can do hard things, we can do hard things. 

01:05:58 - Natalie Kling (Host)
We can do hard things and they might suck when we're doing them. 

01:06:01
But yeah, it's true, exactly, exactly, right, melissa, thank you so much. Thank you for being willing to. I mean, this is the most open and honest conversation we've ever had on this podcast. I think it's so important. I really appreciate your courage and I acknowledge my own and having this conversation and I really hope that other people in business and family businesses can find value in it and know that they're not alone, because ultimately, that's the goal with this podcast in general is that we are all. There's a thread that is a common thread between all family businesses and if we can keep unpacking and keep talking about it and keep communicating about it and normalizing it, we do this in honor of family businesses, right, because we love them so much and they're so special and unique. 

01:06:55 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
So this is. I think we have to talk to each other, Natalie. We have to tell each other Like only someone who's lived in a family business can say things like I think I'm going to kill my dad, I think I'm going to kill him. And someone who can receive that because they lived it goes. 

01:07:09
I know, and there's never actual a threat of violence. It's just there's this frustration that wells up that you can't know if it isn't this father figure who's judging you as a boss and a daughter, and this reverberation that happens of like what if I'm not good enough? What if I let them down? It is so scary and we have to talk to each other about it because no one else can really understand the intensity, I think, of what goes on in family business and that's right I love family businesses. 

01:07:38
I love working with them and for them, and when it works, oh my God, it's so beautiful. So when it doesn't, it's so painful and the courage to work through. 

01:07:47 - Natalie Kling (Host)
that is yes, and you have a unique role in being able to do that. I know we didn't really talk about what you do, but but you get to work. You find people, the right people for the right seats in the bus for a lot of family companies, right. 

01:08:00 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Yeah, and help them get to a point where they can contribute and thrive, where they're engaged and they're good managers and they're contributing to a leadership team, and whether they're part of the family or not is kind of irrelevant. It's like how do we help these family businesses? 

01:08:12 - Natalie Kling (Host)
And you're speaking at Generations Conference. I am yes, and what's your? 

01:08:15 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
topic Nepotism. Do it right or not at all? And it's such a negative connotation, but it doesn't have to be and it's there's something very special about. I mean. Nepotism is benefiting the people we care about most, especially by giving them jobs. And that's what we do in family business and there's a great way to do it, and I think we make we often make missteps, and so it's like, hey, here's some tips on how to not step in it. 

01:08:43 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Oh, you're going to be so good at that. I can't wait to hear it. Thank you Well, thank you again, Melissa. This has been really special. I appreciate it. 

01:08:51 - Melissa Ortiz (Guest)
Thank you for having me. 

01:08:56 - Natalie Kling (Host)
Thank you for listening to A Seat at the Table Trials and Triumphs of Family Business. Thank you for listening to A Seat at the Table Trials and Triumphs of Family Business. If you like what you heard today, please be sure to subscribe, post a positive review and share with another family business owner. For more information about the Capital Region Family Business Center, visit capfamilybizorg that's capfamilybusorg family busorg. You can also follow us on Facebook at capital region family business center and on Instagram at cap fam biz B I Z. If you know of other family businesses that have a story to share, please contact the family business center at info at cap family bizorg. That's B U S. We're grateful for the support from River City Bank to make this program possible and special thanks to Guy Raz. From how I Built this for a wonderful closing question that's become one of our favorites.