Episode 43: Founder to Future - Navigating Growth in Family Business

What happens when a family business advisor is also navigating the realities of family business at home?

In this episode, host Natalie Kling sits down with Craig and Joyce Hettrich of The Hettrich Group to discuss the unique challenges and opportunities that family-owned businesses face as they grow.

Drawing from decades of leadership experience and years spent helping entrepreneurs scale their companies, Craig and Joyce share practical insights into one of the most difficult aspects of family business: separating emotion from facts while preserving the passion that makes family companies special.

The conversation explores succession planning, accountability, leadership development, bringing in outside talent, and the delicate balance between family relationships and business performance. They also discuss their own journey as spouses, business partners, and parents working alongside the next generation.

Whether you're a founder struggling to let go, a next-generation leader looking for greater responsibility, or a family business owner navigating growth, this episode offers valuable lessons on leadership, trust, and building a legacy that lasts. You can learn more at Hettrich Group EOS.

Chapter List

00:00 Family Business and Leadership Foundations
04:04 Launching The Hettrich Group
07:09 Working Successfully as Spouses
11:12 Bringing the Next Generation into the Business
14:06 Separating Emotion from Facts
17:16 Letting Go and Scaling a Company
20:52 When Leaders Are in the Wrong Seat
25:15 Accountability, Ownership, and Family Dynamics
33:47 Building Trust and Bringing in Outside Talent
39:10 Creating a Family Legacy for Future Generations
43:17 Understanding EOS and Growing with Intention
45:02 Hard Work, Luck, and Building Success

To learn more about the Capital Region Family Business Center visit our website HERE. To learn more about River City Bank and how they can benefit your family business, visit www.rivercitybank.com

Transcript

Steve Fleming: [00:00:00] Hi, my name is Steve Fleming, CEO of River City Bank, which was founded almost 50 years ago. As a leader in a family business myself, and a longtime board member for the Capital Region Family Business Center, I understand firsthand how incredibly important family businesses are to our economy and the unique challenges they face in sustaining from generation to generation.

I think that you will find this podcast series informative, entertaining, and even humorous at times. That's why our family business, River City Bank, is proud to support this podcast. I hope you enjoy today's episode. 

Craig Hettrich: A lot of times they feel like the people that aren't family members in parallel roles to that feel like that person can't be fired, and they act like that too.

They act like, "Oh, I'm not being held accountable because I'm an owner." I said, "You can't do that." I said, "The biggest thing again is you can be fired as a person in the operating company, and you have to [00:01:00] be okay with that. You have to play the same rules and be accountable just like everybody else, and you also have to be, uh, the best person for that role too."

Natalie Kling: Hello and welcome to A Seat at the Table, Trials and Triumphs of Family Business, brought to you by the Capital Region Family Business Center, helping family businesses to grow and prosper. I'm Natalie Mariani Kling, your host and a fourth-generation family business member. I am so excited to join you around the table for real conversations about what it's like to grow up in, become a part of, and navigate the complexities of a family business.

Special thanks to another family business, River City Bank, for their generous support of this program. On today's [00:02:00] episode, we speak with Joyce and Craig Hetrick of The Hetrick Group. Not only are they a family business themselves, but they work with family businesses, developing leaders and growing companies.

We talk about some of the biggest challenges inherent in family-owned companies, and how Craig and Joyce navigate tough conversations to sometimes help families see where even they might be creating a cost to their own company, and instead how to take their superpowers and the superpowers of their leadership team to the next level.

Joyce Hettrich: Welcome Craig and Joyce Hetrick of The Hetrick Group to the studio. We are so happy to have 

Natalie Kling: you. You have a very unique perspective, which I'm excited to share with our listeners today, which is that you work very closely with family businesses, but you are also a family business, so you know what it's like from the inside out, and I wanna get to that.

Let's start with how [00:03:00] long have you been married? 

Joyce Hettrich: We will be married 44 years this coming m- May. May 15th. 

Natalie Kling: Wow. Congratulations. 

Joyce Hettrich: Thank you. 

Natalie Kling: Craig, what drew you to Joyce in the beginning? 

Craig Hettrich: Well, actually, it was not so blind of a date. I lived in a fraternity right next to her sorority, and their sorority social chairman said, "We're doing this set up dance.

We're setting up all the sisters with, uh, fraternity brothers." And I said, "Well, I'd like to see her first, uh, before she... I do agree to this." She said, "Well, she's going to class at 3:00 on Friday. Why don't you look out the window, and I'll give you the high sign. I'll call the house phone." She calls the house phone, out she comes, and my two roommates are there, and we all go, "Yep, thumbs up."

No, just Joyce hit it right on the head, is that we were from rival high schools that were five minutes apart. There were some real commonalities there and shared value system, and, uh, jeez, we were married about a year later, so- Mm-hmm ... it [00:04:00] all worked out pretty well. Really? 

Natalie Kling: Wow. So you both knew really quickly.

Joyce Hettrich: Yeah, very quickly. Yeah. 

Natalie Kling: And then when did this idea start to emerge, Craig, that you wanted to go out on your own? 

Craig Hettrich: Yeah, so I spent 30 years in the corporate world and with some big companies like Nestle and General Mills, and then some emerging middle market companies. I was, uh, either VP, general manager, president, CEO of four different food companies.

And what came about was w- was a really excellent career, excellent experience, but what I found was that I didn't enjoy running companies and having family boards and stuff like that, that, that, uh, they c- continually changed over family members every year and became a very, uh, challenging environment in training new board members, things like that.

So, uh, I finally decided I didn't want to be running companies for other people. I really wanted to leverage the experience that I had over 30 [00:05:00] years and then help give back to entrepreneurs that want to build their business, and that was really the core purpose that we developed, was really about helping leaders and their businesses and their teams to reach their full potential.

It even morphed into family members and friends. So that really became our core purpose. Gave notice at, um, my last company, and we decided to launch The Hetrick Group in January 2nd of 2016, and by January 4th, I told Joyce I'm absolutely crazy, I can't do this. She said, "No, no, no, you know, you have to, you know-" Do it

"stick to it, and, and you can do this," and she was quite, uh, very, very helpful in getting me, pushing me forward to, uh, make this work. 

Natalie Kling: At that time, did you think you would work together professionally? 

Craig Hettrich: I don't think that we had it in our head that we would do that, but, um- You know, I think it's r- we realized that, that we had different strengths and that she could be i- immensely helpful to our business [00:06:00] in her own way, a highly creative, uh, mind and a great problem solver and, and- 

Joyce Hettrich: I have a different career path than he did.

Yeah. I was, uh, 30 years as a creative problem solving. I worked with Destination Imagination and in various capacities, and, uh, have taught groups of kids and groups of people how to look at things from different perspectives in order to come up with a, a new solution for an old problem. And that's kind of where I was, as I said, when he started The Hetrick Group, which I guess was kind of a, um, a visionary type of statement, The Hetrick Group.

Um, I went to work in the corporate world myself for, like I said, to get insurance. So I worked in the construction indus- industry and was a vice president of a local construction company for 10 years, and that's kind of what got me into the company, 'cause I saw what he was doing and how the things were working so very, very efficiently, and tried them in the company that I was working [00:07:00] with, and I went, "Wow, I wanna do more of this."

So I jumped in- Wow ... and learned the systems and then joined the group. 

Natalie Kling: Cool. Well, I mean, that seems kind of like a perfect background when you're talking about family businesses and trying to come up with new solutions to probably very old problems. 

Joyce Hettrich: Right. Right, 

Natalie Kling: right, right. In a lot of cases. Yeah. How interesting.

A lot of people say they could never work with their spouse. What is it that works for you guys? 

Joyce Hettrich: I think that we've always just shared everything. I find more and more people these days we talk to, you know, they, they keep separate bank accounts. They keep separate vacations. They do all of these things separately.

N- that's never been in our, our vision, our... anything on our horizon. It's always been together, uh, and I think maybe what I said, we moved 14 times. We've always moved. Our kids have moved with us. We're a very close-knit group of people because we've depended on each other for our entire lives. 

Craig Hettrich: And I would add to that, that we [00:08:00] have, uh, different strengths, and I am very much let's get this, take the hill, get the job done, you know, type A.

Let's go. And she's more the, "Here's the ideas." I, I'm the, "Okay, Craig, create this blank sheet of paper." I'll look at the sheet of paper for 20 minutes, not write anything down. She would be off to the races with all kinds of creative ideas and thoughts. And so it w- very complementary stuff. She's got more of that visionary thinking.

I'm more the integrator and the, the let's get it done and execute the plan and, uh, and, and make it happen. So it's very complementary. 

Natalie Kling: Craig, you had said that you both are very aligned on the fact that your relationship comes first. Was there a point in time where that became clear that you had to make that priority?

Craig Hettrich: Well, I think right away as we started to, to work together and, uh, that I had to be more patient, and I'm still challenged [00:09:00] today, right? I wanna move faster on a lot of stuff, right? And so, uh, we have to make sure that no matter what we talk about, that we can have some disagreement, that we have to align in the end, that we don't let things fester and spill over into our personal life.

Mm-hmm. That's gotta be the hard line, right? Easier said than done sometimes, and she's better at it, I think, than I am. But, uh, uh, but you have to have that. 

Natalie Kling: Is there a time you guys can remember where you had to remind each other of that? Or what does it look like when that gets hard, and how do you overcome that?

Because so many families have to do that, too, right? 

Joyce Hettrich: I think flexibility is probably paramount in our relationship anyway because the way situations come up, we're able to Say, "Oh, isn't that interesting?" Sit back and think about, [00:10:00] "Why is it that I'm reacting that way?" Or, "What is it about this conversation that's got my hackles up?"

You know, and then not react immediately. Try and figure out what it is, 'cause it's usually some underlying cause. It's not actually the situation you're facing. So that's just kind of a technique I think we've both used for quite some time. 

Natalie Kling: I mean, that's really good self-reflection, and is that something you both came to naturally?

Have you always been self-reflective or did you have to learn that? 

Joyce Hettrich: I have been fairly self-reflective most of my life, and I think I've... He's been receptive to, to learning more. He's very receptive to new ideas, which is also something I think is very important in any relationship, not staying in your lane too much.

Craig Hettrich: Yeah. Part of our intellectual property is leading leadership systems, just like EOS is a system, and sometimes I have to make sure and embrace myself what we're teaching as a emotional intelligence and [00:11:00] patience and asking great questions before reacting, and I'm learning that for sure. And, uh, it's my Type A personality sometimes.

It's like, "Come on, let's just go get this," right? And, uh, yeah, we start talking through and asking really good questions about what's, what's Joyce said was driving it, then we, we come away with a really good joint solution, and we agree and move on. 

Natalie Kling: Your daughter, Robin, also works in the company now. What was the conversation like when she joined?

Joyce Hettrich: Robin is creativity on steroids, and she's also... She's kind of a mix. She's very much a doer, but she's much more a huge creative thinker, sometimes out of our comfort zones, which is not a bad thing. It's always good to be pushed outside. Bringing her in was a bit of a learning curve, I would say. She is very good.

In fact, I had a small [00:12:00] business with her myself prior to her joining us as The Hetrick Group. Um, we worked very well together. It's a matter of learning the personalities and adjusting to the personalities, finding what works best for them, and sometimes counseling what we need to dial up or dial down.

And it's, right now I think it's working pretty fluidly. 

Natalie Kling: What have you learned about being both parents and bosses at the same time? 

Craig Hettrich: Well, I, I think it's, and I'm still learning with my daughter too, 'cause my patience isn't like where it probably needs to be. Like, like, I'm like, "Let's get this done now, now, now means now."

So it's just really understanding, you know, how, especially Robin, how she thinks and processes and what she has to go through, her thought process to do things, get things done, is different than how I would do that, right? So I have to try to adapt to more her way of thinking, her way of, um, how she processes [00:13:00] information and how she learns is different than I, and I have to like make sure I'm thinking about that and accommodate for that when I'm doing something, training or whatever, getting her to, to do some sort of project.

Natalie Kling: What do you think she would say is one of the challenges of being part of a family business? 

Joyce Hettrich: Honestly, what she would say would be getting her father to let go of certain things and let her do it. 

Natalie Kling: Yeah. 

Joyce Hettrich: Right. 

Craig Hettrich: 100%. 

Natalie Kling: You guys, I, I've shared this story before on this podcast, but we went to Generations conference one year, and they had all the existing gen in one room and next gen in the other.

And the single problem amongst the current gen was letting go. 

Joyce Hettrich: Mm-hmm. 

Natalie Kling: And the single problem amongst the next gen was that the first gen wouldn't let go. 

Craig Hettrich: Mm-hmm. 100% understand 

Joyce Hettrich: that. 

Natalie Kling: So it's obviously, yes, obviously a very common thing. It's 

Craig Hettrich: consistent, right, between the two. 

Natalie Kling: Yeah. Of course. 

Joyce Hettrich: And you have to also realize that [00:14:00] in a family business, the people you're working with, in a business format, they're- they shouldn't be looked at as family.

Because, you know, this is a business, so you have to respect that they're adults and treat them that way. 

Natalie Kling: And so how have you learned to separate... Because Craig, you talk a lot about one of the challenges family businesses have to overcome is separating out emotions from facts. 

Craig Hettrich: Mm-hmm. 

Natalie Kling: And so how do you navigate that when that's tough?

I mean, I imagine, you know, even with my own kids, it's like you didn't do the thing, but now I'm mad that you didn't do the thing because we have background. You know what I mean? So it's the family dynamics that really, yeah. How, how do you yourselves navigate that? 

Craig Hettrich: Well, yeah, and both Joyce and Robin are constantly reminding me that I'm going too far in my extrapolation of, of things that can happen.

My mind just spins to nth degrees, right? That it could be this, it could be that, and they're [00:15:00] like, "Well, it's not here, this far all the way to this extreme. So let's not, like, go there. There's no need to go there till we have more facts," right? So 

Joyce Hettrich: let's focus on the issue- 

Craig Hettrich: Yeah ... 

Joyce Hettrich: currently, not what could happen, right?

Yeah. 

Craig Hettrich: So. In my mind sometimes it's risk mitigation, and just wanna make sure we're covered, and we don't have anything, have to dig out of. And so they're constantly reminding me, "Hey, that's not even anywhere in the radar screen right now. It's not something that you can say, 'Yeah,' but we can see it. It's happening.

So just plan for what, what we have right now." 

Natalie Kling: So staying present to what's- Mm-hmm ... happening now. Very 

Joyce Hettrich: much so. 

Natalie Kling: Is that advice you give a lot of family businesses? I- in terms of separating emotions and facts, h-how do you help people do that? 

Craig Hettrich: Oh, yeah, I think we, we had our, our pre-talk, and that's one of the biggest challenges I see is that families make a lot of decision on emotion and not facts.

And just they were, they were in their mind, they're thinking that this is the way it is, and this is what I value- [00:16:00] Even though it may not be a very good decision from a business perspective for the business short, medium, or long term, but it's something they really like, and they're just gonna hold onto it, right?

Whether it be different parts of your business, uh, people that are, uh, a family member is in a wrong seat and they know it, right? And they're just not willing to do anything about it. Or they might be in the wrong seat, realize it, and feel bad about not being a CEO anymore when they know they shouldn't be.

But they feel like they s- are supposed to be. That's their identity. So it's just those emotions that creep in and negatively impact their decision-making, and a lot of times to the detriment of the business and their, their, their, most of their wealth is tied up in their business, so it could hurt their short, medium, and long-term outlook.

Natalie Kling: And let's talk about that for a second because so much of what a founder, for example, creates the business on is their instinct. [00:17:00] It's what they're interested in, passionate about, their intuition, their instinct, and then they start a business. And so then you have the next gen that watch that and oftentimes learn that that's a really important tool.

Learn, you know, follow your gut, follow your gut. And then you have to run a business, and then really smart people like yourselves are telling you, "Well, hey, separate emotions from facts." So how do you help families navigate through that? 

Joyce Hettrich: Well, I mean, one of the things we use is a tool called EOS, and EOS really does help people to learn how to grow their company, break through any ceiling that they're going to hit.

'Cause you will hit a ceiling when you are dealing on passion. 'Cause you're passionate, you're doing it all yourself, and then you find out all of a sudden everybody loves what you're doing, but you can't do more of it 'cause you're already doing so much of it. So we have to teach them to let go of the vine and allow people [00:18:00] to do what you're trusting them to do, and that's a process.

But making them aware of that and showing them the models that illustrate exactly what's happening and how that if they're able to let go, let people do what they're supposed to do, they're not the chief bottle washer for, in, uh, the entire company. There's other people who can come along and help them.

That's the only way they're gonna be able to break through those ceilings consistently, 'cause they're gonna hit those ceilings as long as they're scaling. They're always going to hit a ceiling, so they have to learn the skills to delegate and elevate to their highest use of their passion, what they can do best.

Natalie Kling: What's one of your favorite stories of watching someone go through that? Maybe h- hitting resistance, not wanting to necessarily let go or, and then realizing, and then, uh, having a transformation. 

Craig Hettrich: Yeah, so w- we see it constantly. It's probably the number one problem is that you, you've grown a business [00:19:00] to three, five million, sometimes $10 million, and you've grown it through whatever your superpower was.

"Hey, I'm great at product development. We created this widget, and it's, like, the best ever." Or sales and marketing, they were part of a company, and they brought customers with them and decided to go out on their own, whatever that is, and they suddenly realize that they don't have it all figured out.

There's some weakness in one of the big parts of their business, and usually it's a weakness around what they're doing and what they can offer, right? So the person that's a visionary is not the best salesperson, and they're the one driving sales, right? So they're like, "We don't have anyone else." And all of a sudden they realize, "Man, this isn't working anymore.

I can't do that." But it's not really their superpower, what they can really do exceptionally well. So what we do is we, we look at it very objectively. We have tools they can look at, what's the job role that you're playing in your company? And by the way- The owner a lot of times is, is in too many of those function buckets, right?

I'm sales, I'm marketing, finance. And [00:20:00] what are the top job responsibilities, the outcomes required? What are the skillsets and behaviors to do, mindsets to do those responsibilities well, and do you have it? And can you learn it you- if you don't have it? Or if not, then maybe I need someone else to come in and pick up that ball.

Who's the 80... Who's not the 80% solution like I am right now, who's the 120% solution? So it's to get them to talk into that and, and say, "Hey, that's short-term money you're paying to be able to scale to if you're going from, like, 3 to 10 million. That's gonna get us to 10 million, not you as a 70% solution in two of those roles," right?

Two of those big functions. 

Natalie Kling: Right. So, and do you have an example of someone who you really had to walk through that and- Oh, yeah ... and how they kinda came out the other side? 

Craig Hettrich: Yeah, I came, uh, one was, uh, an IT company, a tech- more of a t- IT tech, not managed service IT company. And it was real [00:21:00] interesting. In EOS we say there's a visionary role who p- with the big ideas, the integrator role that manages the day-to-day of the company, right?

Well, usually they're not the same person or you gravitate to one or the other, and probably eight or nine out of 10 business owners are visionaries. They have the ideas, but they don't like running the business day to day. So this person was great from a visionary perspective, but a lousy integrator. So I finally got them in a team meeting, them being the leadership team, to let the visionary know he was a lousy integrator, that he needed to be fired out of that role.

Wow. So ... 

Natalie Kling: Wow. 

Craig Hettrich: So- We, we were able to do that, and we were able to do that logically though. "Here's what it takes to be the integrator, those skills and competencies. Here's your superpower, and there's a gap there, right? And I don't know that it's in your DNA to bridge that gap, right? That's just not who you are, what you are.

You don't wanna be holding people accountable. You wanna be leading people. That's okay. We want you over here just doing what visionary things do, and we [00:22:00] can s- we can really scale the company." 

Joyce Hettrich: And doing that, you really need to, especially with a leadership team, being brave enough to tell their fearless leader that, you know, "You are not the person for this position."

It's all about building trust, and, uh, a lot of the services that we offer are about building trust within your leadership team so no one's af- afraid, you know, that they're gonna be fired because they said something, right? They all know that they can trust, and they know where they're coming from when they make comments or decisions like that as a team.

Natalie Kling: So help us feel a little bit more into what that was like in that room that day. I mean, how did you prepare the leadership team, and how did the conversation go? 

Craig Hettrich: Well, like in our leadership system, we talk about creating what I call an upfront contract. So for every team, these are our engagement best practices.

And part of it is, is getting things on the table and no penalty for speaking your mind, but lean into learning something new and being [00:23:00] influenced, work for the greater good. And with all those pieces, you know, transparency, five or six engagement, uh, pieces, that we're going to follow that, and if we see that it's not being followed, we will point to it in the, the meeting room.

"Hey, I don't think we're being as transparent," or, "Who, who has something maybe a little different to say about this?" And so we're preparing them and then preparing the visionary to take that, to take that advice coming in, to take that comments and not react negatively, to play it back to them, "Here's what I'm hearing.

Thanks for the feedback." And then you're gonna get more of that feedback once you welcome it, right? If you torpedo it and shoot arrows at that feedback and get angry, your, your, your team is not gonna open up anymore. The trust will be gone 

Natalie Kling: And in that situation, was that person able to hear it in real time?

Yes. Did it take 48 hours? I mean, how, how did, 

Craig Hettrich: how did that go? You have to think about it. This person was, um, on the willing team, right? [00:24:00] Like, that's what they wanted to hear actually from his team, uh, so that went, went really well. But I've had one where it took probably a day or two of thinking about it and me getting on the phone with them, playing back what they heard and, and, and talking about his strengths versus what the strengths needed to play that integrator role and how wide the gap was, and they finally realized, "No.

Yeah, that's just not me, nor do I wanna learn that," right? So too old or whatever. I just don't have the, the DNA to do that. 

Natalie Kling: One thing you told me, Craig, that I think makes so much sense is you really vet clients and customers and make sure that they are w- willing to change, that there's a growth mindset.

How important is that to you? 

Joyce Hettrich: Oh, it's paramount. I mean, if they don't have the DNA or the willingness to change and make change, and the ownership of the organization and the willingness to grow, then there's [00:25:00] no way you're going to change that mindset. I mean, it's, there's just not. 

Craig Hettrich: Yeah. It, it's really going to be detrimental to the company 'cause you, you can't...

I had actually some companies that elected not to work with. They said, "Well, we don't wanna grow." I said, "Okay. Well, here's just what I have found in my experience in 30-some years. You have to grow. If you have 100% of your retention of your clients, then maybe you don't, but you could be a great company and still have, you know, 97%, but 3% are leaking out the back of the door.

So you still have to grow to at least maintain, right?" So you have to have a growth mindset in some way, shape, or form. If you don't, then sooner or later it's just gonna, you're gonna wonder- Implode ... what happened to it, right? Well, it's 'cause you didn't have a growth mindset. You let it all slip. 

Natalie Kling: You've talked about family members staying in roles for too long.

Oftentimes, there's an emotional attachment to that identity or that role. What does that cost a company over time? 

Craig Hettrich: Yeah. So [00:26:00] let me back up a little bit. Another big thing we see, and I'd mentioned to you previously, was that owners playing owners in the operating company, and that's a big thing we talk about with family-owned businesses, especially because if you are playing owner in the operating company, what I mean by that, if you happen to be, like, in the sales role, like let's say you have three brothers and sisters and one of them's CEO, two of them are in the operating company, let's say at the, you know, marketing or head of sales, head of marketing.

A lot of times they feel like the people that aren't family members in parallel roles to that feel like that person can't be fired, and they act like that too. They act like, "Oh, I'm not being held accountable 'cause I'm an owner." And you can't do that. I said, "The biggest thing I get is you can be fired as a person in the operating company, and you have to be okay with that.

You have to play the same rules and be accountable just like everybody else, and you [00:27:00] also have to be, uh, the best person for that role too." A lot of owners think, "I've gotta work in the operating company." My thing is maybe not. Maybe just sit in the owner's box over here because whatever it is, you're not applicable for those roles.

It's, it's call it what it is. You can still benefit as an owner in being on a board, right? But as a board, responsible board member owner, don't you want the best people in the seats regardless of you or not that's gonna take your company forward? 'Cause you, as an owner, will benefit financially from having those right people in the right seats even if it's not you.

Natalie Kling: That's what's so huge about having people like yourselves, I think, come in, uh, into a family company because being part of a family company, there's tremendous responsibility and a lot of times, I think, obligation wrapped in loyalty that makes you feel like, "Oh, this is our company. I need to take a role.

I need this to be my job." And [00:28:00] so in your experience, what is that? What is that that keeps people attached like that when, to your point, you just said so logically, absolutely, how many times would it be best if you just actually just be an owner and get the right people to run the operating company?

Joyce Hettrich: There's an awful lot of, as we talked before, self-reflection in getting people to understand what they really wanna be when they grow up. It's really not part of our job, but we kind of do it anyway in the meetings that we have when we're meeting together as leadership teams. We do have off-sites where we go and we do some exercises that tend to bring up why people do things the way they are.

They look at their history and why do I act this way, and so we do some of those types of developmental exercises as a group during the year, but also during our regular sessions. We'll be looking in the way people are reacting, the physical, you know, the, the crossed arms, the attitude that we see, and [00:29:00] we at that point can do what we said earlier.

We jump in and say, "Well, okay, let, let's explore that a little bit more. What's going on here?" If we need to, we can take a break and go off-site and talk to them. But we, we have to be aware of what's happening in the room. You have to be aware of what's happening with individual people, and it's our job to make the best of a situation, right?

So if it looks like there might be an issue with somebody who's not performing at their best, but they still love the company, we'll have those one-on-one conversations and try to figure out what's gonna work best for the family and for the company. 

Natalie Kling: And do you talk to the families about what the cost is over time if they aren't gonna choose the best person for the role or if they're going to stay, and how do you kind of quantify that cost?

Craig Hettrich: Yeah, so if you think about it, we're, we are looking at a plethora of plan dates, right? We'll have five-year, three-year, [00:30:00] one-year, 90-day time horizon. And usually we d- we help the owner, the leadership team as part of developing this. So the more buy-in you get from the team, the more commitment, right? So now the team knows where we're going, one year, three year, five year, and we talk about, given our three-year time horizon usually is where I start, what is it gonna take from a horsepower standpoint in each of these roles to get to that three-year number?

Usually it's a scaling number. What do we need and what do we have today? Do we have the people that are gonna be able to make that jump or not, right? And so some are not willing. Some are gonna say, "Hey, I like my job the way it is. You know, we're a $10 million company. I feel comfortable." Okay. We still need to get to 30 million, right?

And so at some point we're gonna hire a position above you, and they understand that. "Hey, I'm wanting to be part of that $30 million growth scenario, but I don't wanna be running operations at 30 [00:31:00] million. I'm okay with 10." And at that point we'll say, "Okay, you could be, like, a manager of operations doing this, and that's what you do well anyway.

It's what you love. You'll keep doing that, and that's okay." And so we really have those conversations, and if it's an owner or owner's kids or whatever that is, we're having the same conversation. And a lot of times too, it's also the owner or the integrator at the very top. Are you that person that's gonna get us from 5 or 10 million to 30?

Do you have the skillsets? Can you learn them? Do you even want to? A lot of times they don't want to. You know, "I don't want to be managing, uh, a company with 75 people. I, I loved it when it was 10," right? "I had all that control on it." That's what I commonly hear, and that's fine. So we're gonna get the person to come in to be able to run the day-to-day company when it gets to 20, 30 people, and so you don't have to worry about that anymore.

So we're looking at all those things. We're trying to make it logical and, and trying to look at the [00:32:00] skillsets needed at varying levels of scaling, and it works pretty well. 

Joyce Hettrich: Take the emotion out, but not the passion. 

Natalie Kling: Mm-hmm. 

Joyce Hettrich: Oh, man. That sounds hard. 

Craig Hettrich: You know, it is, but if you're really logical about it- And, and not, you know, fiction 'cause they were just pie in the sky, but you really look, what do we think we're gonna need?

And I bring some of my experience, Joyce will bring her experience in there, but also we're asking them, "It's coming from you, your team. What do we think we need in terms of experience, skill sets?" And usually they'll say, "Ah, we need somebody that's been at 50 million." Okay. Well, tell me what is it about that?

Why do you feel that way, right? And, and we get into it a little bit more and we go, "Yeah, I think that's probably good at 20 million. Let's bring somebody on that's been to 50 million so they can, they've lived that scale and they'll help us do it." 

Joyce Hettrich: For us, it's mostly about asking intuitive questions to get to where you know they need to be.

So sometimes it's like a, a little backdoor that you're taking [00:33:00] in to get them to where they're going to be successful. 

Natalie Kling: Which is also another way of saying you help them to see themselves. 

Joyce Hettrich: Mm-hmm. 

Natalie Kling: Yeah. Which 

Joyce Hettrich: is- Or try and find the wisdom in the room, right? 

Natalie Kling: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That, 

Joyce Hettrich: that's awesome. Not, not giving it to them, but hel- helping them to realize what they have.

What they have is a very special thing. They wanna see it succeed. 

Natalie Kling: And I think that's w- transparently sometimes consultants get bad raps because there's this idea that they have this outside information they're gonna bring to you and then you're gonna make the company better. But really, the opportunity is we're gonna h- just help you see what's already here.

And, and it's all coming from you. I- if you wanna grow to 50 million, what do you need to get there? I mean, that's where that conversation is so valuable, and we can only see so much of the forest through the trees, right, ourselves, so. One of the things that families struggle with, some families, is this idea of bringing in [00:34:00] outside talent.

What do you think oftentimes is underneath that resistance? 

Joyce Hettrich: Mostly trust. Are they going to value what we value? Because they've built their values over their lifetime, right? So, uh, and you bring an outside entity in. Again, it's all about learning to trust and hiring the right people. It, it's not an easy thing.

I mean, it's, it's easy to sit here and say, "That's what you need to do," but, you know, it's... It takes time. It takes, uh, coaching. 

Craig Hettrich: Well, the other thing too is that people think sometimes owning a business, I have to promote only the people from within. That's what they want. And I think that could be shortsighted.

One, when we look at what are the skills and competencies needed for the next level that I would be bringing people up to, they may not have the ability to elevate, or if I, if I do elevate them, we may be doing them a disservice 'cause they're not really suited for [00:35:00] that function. That's even worse. And if that's the case, then it's okay to bring people in from the outside, right?

It's we want to look at promoting from within where we can, but sometimes when you bring people from the outside, you get all these new different ideas that you didn't have. Companies can get really short, narrow window, they start looking down, kind of tunnel vision, and we're pulling it out a little bit when we bring new, new people in, have new thinking.

So it doesn't hurt to have a little bit of both. 

Natalie Kling: Yeah. On the flip side of what we just talked about, bringing outside talent in, and I know, Craig, you know this intimately, is what are the experiences of the outside talent coming into family businesses? What are the challenges there, and how do we, as family businesses, best look at that?

Craig Hettrich: So I think some of it is family-owned businesses have a certain way of doing things and maybe aren't open to outsiders' point of [00:36:00] view in the way they do things. 'Cause think about whenever you ever change jobs, "Hey, we did it this way in our company. We did it that way in our company." And a lot of times they don't wanna hear about it.

"This is the way we do it," right? So there's a little bit of, "Hey, this is the way we do it, and, you know, this worked for us, so we don't want to really change." Better companies are figuring out a way to incorporate some of that in there within reason. So I think that and just assimilating to their culture, making them feel, I think, more welcome.

I, I think family businesses do a great job of this, honestly, though, versus corporate. Corporate's kinda like you come on board and you gotta find your way and you gotta make your connections. And the family members and the... One of the things I love about owners is they have big hearts, really big hearts.

"This is our kind of family," if you will, and, uh, "Welcome to our family, and let's get to know you." And mostly I see it done exceptionally well. 

Joyce Hettrich: But for people who are entering that [00:37:00] situation, it's don't make changes too quickly, right? Learn the systems- Right ... learn the personalities, make suggestions slowly, and then once you become part of the family, then you can truly do what you need to do.

Craig Hettrich: Great point. 

Natalie Kling: It's so beautiful the way that, and, and you had spoken about this too before, Craig, the way that you both see family business owners more often than not as really good people trying to do the right thing, and that I know that struck you f- from a more corporate situation where it's a little bit more highly competitive and...

Is that what draws you back to wanting to work with family businesses again and again? 

Craig Hettrich: Oh, yeah. I mean, the, the thing that we love about family businesses is they're willing. They're willing to learn, they're learners, they wanna do the right things, they wanna preserve their legacy and pass it on. And so they're not, like, close-minded, "This is the way [00:38:00] we do it," and no way, other way of looking at it, right?

Uh, there's one side where there's a negative for the business owner that is receptive and treats you like family, welcoming. The w- biggest challenge I see with owners is holding them accountable a lot of times. They don't like accountability. So remember when the, the visionary's running the company and, uh, they don't like holding people accountable, running day-to-day, and then managing people.

So the, the same person or persons in the company aren't doing the job, and they're loathe to tell them that, and they say, "Well, they got six kids, so I can't, I can't do anything." You know, so they do that, but they're not, like, really being upfront, open and honest about their performance, which is fair, right?

"Here's what we need. Here's what you're doing. Here's the gaps. Let's see how we can close those gaps," or even, you know, "I don't think we can close the gap. We, we have you in a wrong seat here. Let's l- look at where your superpower applies in our, our company." [00:39:00] And that's not done very well. And we, we kinda remedy a lot of that through EOS and our own leadership system that we have.

Natalie Kling: When the two of you think about the business that you want to build in this next decade and leave for your children, what are the values that you want that business to hold? 

Joyce Hettrich: That's a really good question. We are in expansion mode right now and, uh, developing positions for two of our other children as well within the organization.

It would probably be very much our own family values. Number one is never say never. Um, it can always happen. It can always be done. Number two is think before you speak. And, uh, number three is just, you know, love what you're doing. That's pretty much where we lie and where we, where we live. 

Natalie Kling: Do you [00:40:00] agree, Craig?

Craig Hettrich: Oh, 100%. Yeah. Yeah. 

Natalie Kling: Yeah. 

Craig Hettrich: But we want, we want to pass on this family legacy. Business got values, one thing, but we want them to continue on the legacy that we have of helping business owners reach their full potential, and to buy into that, kind of our, our purpose, if you will. And luckily, they do. 

Joyce Hettrich: Mm-hmm.

Craig Hettrich: They really do, and they have the interest and the skillsets and abilities to do that. So we wanna build an even larger community of entrepreneurs that, that will benefit from that, and it will benefit the community because we're helping them scale. And so far, all of our family members are really aligned with that.

They think it's a great idea, and, uh, we're onto something, so. 

Joyce Hettrich: And they've also married people who also fit those same values, and probably dreams as well. But we are not afraid of bringing outside talent in, 'cause we do have people outside of our company working [00:41:00] with us. Yeah. 

Natalie Kling: Nice, 

Joyce Hettrich: Tracy. Outside of our family working with us.

Natalie Kling: Very cool. What really strikes me about your situation and story is you are helping businesses grow and identify these superpowers with the leaders and-- But so much of that work is helping families navigate the things that are underneath all of that, that we as family members aren't even aware of. And so, and they're things like, um, identity and power and grief and frustration and resentments and all the things that you willingly open the door for these kinds of conversations so that then families can...

It's almost, I see it almost like dusting out the cobwebs, you know, and really getting into, okay, what's really here? What's all the beauty here? 'Cause there is always, in [00:42:00] every family business, I don't know, unless you would disagree, but in my experience and in all the people we've talked to, so much beauty in their story and in their passion and, and what they wanna do.

So, um, you being able to do that while also being a family business and living that yourselves and having to self-reflect on, probably on a daily basis- Mm-hmm ... is, um, very cool work. Very, very important work. And, 

Joyce Hettrich: um- Yeah, we consider ourselves lucky in that we, when we're working with leadership teams of organizations, whether it's a family business or whether it's a for-profit or for any corporate company, we're in there with EOS and with our other programs that we offer.

We get a chance to see what's under the hood, right? And we kind of are diagnosticians. So we may not be the people that solve their problems for them, but we're able to shine light on them and then maybe point them in the direction to get the help [00:43:00] that they truly need. We don't say we're a fix-all. We are not.

We will help them see what needs to be done and help them get there. 

Natalie Kling: Perfect, which goes back to our earlier conversation. You're showing them what's already there. 

Craig Hettrich: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, the other thing that we do, one of the first things we do is we, we wanna really understand what you want. Where do you wanna take the business?

What would be ideal for you? What is the purpose of the business? What's the future of it? What would be ideal there? So we really want to understand that, what do you want from your business, before we do anything, right? 'Cause then, then it instructs kind of as we're working through EOS or they're in one of our peer groups or leadership program system, it instructs how we, we deal with them and what are the underlying issues gonna be with that.

Natalie Kling: Yeah, there is no one-size-fits-all. For all of our listeners, will you just define EOS since we've mentioned it a few times? 

Craig Hettrich: Yeah. It's the Entrepreneurial Operating System, and basically it's a business operating system [00:44:00] with time-tested tools and processes that help business owners, non-profits, whatever the companies are, really build strength in the six key components, which are the main components of the business, so that owners, family members can get what they really want from the business.

And a lot of times it's either legacy and/or we wanna build a, a business with enduring value, that scales, and all of that. So that's what we really do with those, uh, tools and processes. Uh, vision, making sure everyone understand where the company's going, how it's gonna get there. Traction, that all the teams are executing with discipline and accountability.

And healthy, that all teams in the organization are working in cohesive, open, honest teams that are moving ahead together toward that vision. So that's really what EOS is all about. 

Natalie Kling: Well, that's the dream- 

Joyce Hettrich: Mm-hmm ... 

Natalie Kling: for any company to be running that smoothly. Yeah. Cool, guys. Well, [00:45:00] I will end with our last question we ask all of our guests, which is, do you think that the success of the Hetrick Group is more to do with hard work or luck?

Joyce Hettrich: Hard work, for sure. Yeah. It's... No, it's, it's hard work. It's focus, hard work, and yeah, knowing where you're going. 

Craig Hettrich: I think you make your own luck, right? If you, you make it happen. Uh, yeah, of, of course there's some fortunate things that happen along the way. I think fortunate things happen the more you're intentional about and strategic about how you go about your business.

The seeds that you plant. 

Joyce Hettrich: Yeah. 

Craig Hettrich: Yeah. 

Natalie Kling: Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you both so much for being with us. 

Craig Hettrich: Thank you for 

Joyce Hettrich: having us. Thank you. Enjoyed it. 

Natalie Kling: Thank you for listening to A Seat at the Table: Trials and Triumphs of Family Business. If you like what you heard today, please be sure to subscribe, post a positive review, and share with another family business owner.

For more information [00:46:00] about the Capital Region Family Business Center, visit capfamilybiz.org. That's capfamilybus.org. You can also follow us on Facebook at Capital Region Family Business Center and on Instagram at capfambiz, B-I-Z. If you know of other family businesses that have a story to share, please contact the Family Business Center at info@capfamilybiz.org.

That's B-U-S. We're grateful for the support from River City Bank to make this program possible, and special thanks to Guy Raz from How I Built This for a wonderful closing question that's become one of our favorites