White Fox Talking
Talk About Mental Health & Well-Being… Why Not? Mark ‘Charlie’ Valentine suffered life changing mental illness, before beginning a journey to recovery and wellness; the darkness of PTSD transformed by the light atop mountains and beyond. Mark is now joining forces with Seb Budniak, to make up the ‘White Fox Talking’ team. Through a series of Podcasts and Vlogs, ‘White Fox Talking’ will be bringing you a variety of guests, topics, and inspirational stories relating to improving mental well-being. Find your way back to you! Expect conversation, information, serious discussion and a healthy dose of Yorkshire humour!
White Fox Talking
E53: From Streets to Self-Discovery - Roy Morris' Journey of Healing and Resilience (Part 2)
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What if the labels and language we use are the very barriers to our personal growth? Join us as Roy shares his deeply transformative experiences with ayahuasca, revealing how he came to understand that our thoughts and feelings do not define us. Through powerful analogies like watching thoughts pass by on a train platform, we discuss the importance of staying present and the profound impact it can have on our lives. This episode is a treasure trove of insights on mindfulness, the power of non-judgmental presence, and the journey toward enlightenment.
Discover how suffering and trauma can sometimes be the unexpected guides to self-discovery and peace. We explore the role of childhood programming on adult behavior, drawing from theories by notable psychologists and books. Learn how early trauma can manifest in physical and emotional ways and the essential role of emotional intelligence in managing reactions and fostering a peaceful life.
Finally, we untangle the complexities of the human mind, diving into practices and techniques that can help us break free from mental constraints. From mindfulness meditation to EMDR therapy, we highlight valuable tools for distancing oneself from intrusive thoughts and compulsive behaviors. Roy’s journey from anger and resentment to empathy and calmness offers a roadmap for anyone seeking to transcend emotional pain and find inner peace. Tune in to discover the power of presence and perception in overcoming life’s challenges.
Hello and welcome to the White Fox Talking Podcast. How are you, seb Great Are you ready for this?
Speaker 2:Yes, I am really looking forward to this.
Speaker 1:We had a great first part of this interview with Roy and we were sort of bowled over with what he told us about his early life, so we decided to make it a two-parter. The White Fox Talking Podcast is sponsored by Energy Impact. Welcome, roy. Thank you for coming in again giving up your time. There was an awful lot in that younger life of yours, but now we want to talk about your sort of path to healing, really, and discovery. Is that the right word?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'd say healing for me. It's not necessarily something that I can teach somebody else, unless they're open enough, but for me, yeah, it would definitely be my path towards healing.
Speaker 1:And would this be? I don't want to put a label on something, because this is what we're talking about, isn't it? But for listeners, some people would need to have a label on it, I think. But that's what we're talking about getting rid of these labels. This is like a contradiction, really, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Obviously we have to use language to describe. Yeah, it's. In some people's eyes it's classed as spiritual. For me, it's a way of life. I don't label it as anything and that's it really yeah.
Speaker 1:So just to give actually seb and the listeners a bit of background, we actually went out on a walk yesterday. Nice little local walk, a bit of greenery, bit of water, really nice and gentle. I had a pretty bad weekend. I don't know why. I had a bit of anxiety which never felt like that before. I think I told you yesterday actually the only time I've ever felt like that is in the old days, as in when I've come off the back end of a really long weekend drinking and extracurricular activities. But then when I did that I knew there was something to blame. But yesterday it was like I was all right when I came out and I felt great today to be first. Or whether that's your calming influence, because you do have that sort of manner around you, I believe. Would you call it a manner?
Speaker 3:yeah, it's a resonance as well. If you go into a room and somebody's like angry, aggressive, you can feel it. So it's a like a frequency and if you're around people that are calm, then you can pick up that calm frequency yeah, I'm just thinking.
Speaker 1:My first thoughts then were like walking into, because I've been into like temples in nepal and things like any of these monks are sat there, yeah, sort of meditating gently and you want to be quiet, yeah it's a stillnessness that comes over you.
Speaker 2:It's a bit like the aura that some people have. You feel very drawn to it. I can't really describe it, but sometimes when you walk in a room or someone walks in a room, you're just like you know there's something about this person or their aura, the way they come across, and you haven't even spoke to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm not just saying this because you're sat here now and we have that talk. At the time we'd walked around that reservoir. You know, I was thinking it really can. Earlier on in the day I'm thinking how am I going to force myself to go out here? Yeah, Because I didn't want to, and I love being outdoors, I love nature. This is what sort of resonates with me.
Speaker 3:But I didn like resetting my nervous system. Really, I spoke about this yesterday. When you're around somebody that's not judging this there's no mask what happens is you naturally then drop your defenses.
Speaker 1:That helps you to calm down as well so when did you sort of first become aware of this? And and they any methods, any teachings, or I?
Speaker 3:spoke about ayahuasca. Yeah, I went, I did ayahuasca, which was in Peru, and something in that ceremony kind of informed me that I was more than these thoughts and feelings that seemed to be creating so much dissonance within me at the time. And then, once I left there, I went on a journey to kind of finding how I could come to that without the use of any aids drugs, or I think we mentioned.
Speaker 1:Well, I mentioned yesterday this idea of, or did you mention, stood on a platform on a train going through yesterday. We're talking about do I, do I get on that train and go with that thought or do I just let it pass?
Speaker 3:Exactly, yeah, so I actually got that analogy from. They call him a guru I used to go see, called Mooji, and he describes being on a train platform and a train comes into the station. All your friends are there in the carriage and they're all saying to you get on the train, get on the train. But it's actually just staying, still watching, witnessing the thoughts that are trying to entice you in and then watching them go, but you just stay where you are, in the same place, just as the awareness of the thoughts. So thoughts will always take you into your imagination, so either into the future or into the past. So that's when you know you're in your mind. So it's really about just bringing your attention to this moment and establishing yourself in this moment. This moment's always here, but the mind is always trying to pull you either into the past or into the future, so it's having you living in your imagination rather than being present in this moment.
Speaker 1:I'm not greatly up on the spiritual side, but there seems to be a lot of the present, because what's gone has gone and in the future doesn't exist. In fact, neither exist One existed, one doesn't exist, but there's only this moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the psychological way to kind of describe it, but what I'm pointing to is more the experience, right, would you call it psychological. That's something that you can understand on a psychological level if you like To explain it, to explain it. But also it's a little bit like when you're explaining these things, people will take the information on board and it becomes like just something people say rather than what people experience, just something people say rather than what people experience. So what I try to do is when, when I'm with people, I try to get them to experience the thing that's here, that's always here, there's stillness, yeah, where did that little walk around the reservoir we're talking?
Speaker 1:or you asked me to just have a look and basically sort of take on board what I was seeing, but without labelling anything, and I found that. That's the experience. But I found that sort of difficult because of the way that I've sort of educated myself through the mountain thing. When I looked across the water I could see the shimmer of water, beautiful, beautiful afternoon, even though it's thundering in the distance. But when I see all these trees straight away, I've labelled them trees and then I'm labeling them hawthorn birch, silver birch, and that's what. That's what my mind does straight away.
Speaker 3:Yeah, even if I'm not so that's the psychological mind that I'm talking about, so that that always names things, you know, dissects things, and but what I try to point to is just the experience.
Speaker 1:So in that exercise it was, so you're not naming anything yeah and when you don't name anything, what happens is you become one with the things around you, because it's only by naming things that we become separate right, I see, yeah, I think obviously my mind's like, but when I do the mindfulness meditation did eight weeks and because I was practicing every day, I think it were easier to get into that. That a similar state, yeah, is that right a state or it's a?
Speaker 3:state of being. Yes, it's a state of being.
Speaker 1:Yeah and it's not being present, but not it's being present. Yeah, yeah one thing that did interest me is that which really sort of struck a chord was this thing about judgmental yeah and how. That was great, because you know we've got all them living plants and things around us and where do they live? They live only in the present, don't they? Yeah, if you can understand it from a plant that is still alive, it has movement, it uses carbon dioxide, it uses oxygen, but it only lives in the present.
Speaker 3:So this is ancient knowledge. So when you talk about plants in the Bible and I'm not really off air with all of the Bible, but there's some part in the Bible where Jesus says be still like the lilies in the field he actually points to it in lots of ways. Not just that, but that's what he says be still like the lilies in the field and animals. Because animals are not in the psychological mind the way that we are. We love animals because they're so still within themselves. This is why we have this love for them, because when something's still, there's a recognition in us, that stillness in us recognises that stillness and then we say I love that, because love just means connection. When we stop naming things and that connection takes place, the feeling that comes from it is love.
Speaker 1:So when did you first start thinking about this and did it help you move past? Is this a way that you got past your troubles from before, from younger life? Did you put them in a box somewhere and they disappear. They disappear, yeah.
Speaker 3:So, if I describe it this way, prior to all this I used to feel anxiety just from I wouldn't know where it came from. It felt existential, like I were in some kind of danger For all intents and purposes my life. At that time I was very secure in always training, good business, making money, had all the things you know that you imagine make you secure, but that anxiety all the time were there. That, with after once, I started on this journey and started to establish myself more in this place of stillness. The contrast was that I started to feel more at peace within myself, more more love for the people around me, more compassion all them good things just thinking then, was your training?
Speaker 1:you're working in an industry where you're making money, you've got these things around you. Did you start doing that to make yourself feel secure and then discover that that didn't happen?
Speaker 3:that's what happens, and it's it's. It's on a subconscious level, because you start with nothing and so you strive to be something so we spoke in part one about this, about reputation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, so people can look at you say, wow, do you know? Well, this is in your mind and I don't know if I mentioned in the other podcast, but I read this in a book by jay shetty and he says that you're not what you think you are. You're not what other people think you are, but you are what you think other people think you are. So you get your whole identity from what other people are thinking about you, or what you think other people think about you. So, to have a nice car, a big house, nice clothes, we imagine that people are looking at us and this is why we do it, so we can be accepted. And it all comes from that and it all comes from insecurity. You see, a lot of the people that strive for these things usually come from some kind of deep insecurity.
Speaker 1:And I did mention this yesterday when we were walking that that sort of struck a chord with me, because I'm thinking, well before the incident where I got my ptsd, I was probably in that where I was striving to work more hours, to earn more money, to spend more money, so that people thought, oh, look what he's got. I remember once, actually during my ptsd years, I went down with like I had 38 pence to my name, that was it and I it, and I was rock bottom. You know what I mean. I had thousands of pounds in debt, I think at that point that's when I just went, that's it, and I stopped drinking and everything for six months, you know what I mean, and tried to sort myself out and then went on.
Speaker 3:Plus, yeah, I struck a code, because then I went on my own path into doing the mountain stuff where I sort of discovered myself myself, yeah, but by myself, just alone. Well, and that's what happens is we. We have to suffer to come to these realizations. Like any teacher that you listen to, they'll talk about and well, in buddhism they talk about. You know the suffering that brings you to enlightenment we did speak about the, just for the listeners.
Speaker 1:At the moment I'm just going through this emdr treatment, which is eye movement desensitization remedy. I'm not actually using my eyes, I'm using my shoulders and it's a tapping thing and it gets into, it just brings these old connections up and it helps process these thoughts. And one thing we spoke on about distancing ourselves from thoughts yesterday, which I've also spoke about with the EMDR, with the psychologist, and then we mentioned about why has that happened at this time, the chances of having you on the podcast and going out for a walk and doing that at the same time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because it's affirmation. It's just affirmation. What I'm saying is the same things that these people are saying. It's all the same thing and it just affirms it that it's true.
Speaker 3:So the distancing yourself from thoughts and feelings is a really powerful practice, because we imagine that we are the mind and the body and we're taught that from being young. That's what we are the mind and the body and we're taught that from being young. That's what we are. So when you learn or if you teach somebody to distance themselves or create some distance between who they are and the thoughts, it's like you are the witness of the thoughts, you're not the thoughts. Now, usually when you say that to people, they can't understand it because obviously your thoughts have been ruling your life from whatever age. So most people when you say that to them, they're confused. They don't understand that they're not the mind.
Speaker 3:But if you sit quiet and close your eyes and just watch thoughts coming and going, you'll realize that you're not the one coming and going. You're the witness of the thoughts that come and go. It's the same with the feelings. If you can have fear one moment and then the fear goes, you don't go with the fear. So you are the witness of the fear, and the witness of the fear doesn't actually experience fear. The witness of the thoughts doesn't actually have thoughts. You can have a conscious thought so you can use the mind in a practical way to do things. Thought, so you can use the mind in a practical way to do things. But most of the time we're having thoughts that are just coming in, thoughts that are just coming and going. What would you call it?
Speaker 1:the like impulsive, or that's an action in it it's, it's well.
Speaker 3:It's well. The impulsiveness comes from thoughts. Yeah, reacting to thoughts, but it's involuntary is the word that we're looking for. So these thoughts are involuntary and they come in and usually you either follow them or you don't. So the practice is to separate yourself from the coming and going of the thoughts and the coming and going of the feelings, and then to establish yourself in the place of the witness of the thoughts and the feelings, and that's freedom from the thoughts and the feelings, and that's freedom from the thoughts and the feelings, and that's what they call enlightenment people listening.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking there's a lot to take on and you know what I can. I can relate to it because I do. I remember. I don't think it's a fortunate thing that I can relate to it because of the way that I found it through the from the ptsd, where I thought yeah what have I been doing for the last seven years?
Speaker 1:And I've been following my thoughts and at moments of high stress or anger or high emotion, I'd follow a thought and then maybe slightly afterwards, if I'd calmed down a bit, I'd think why did I do that? I followed something, but I had no intention of doing that. I've done, sometimes some stupid things. Yes, sir, Thanks for that. Do you know what I mean? And it's like why have I done that? Who has told me to do that? Because I didn't want to do that. But I've done something, and sometimes it would be. I've gone out and I've had eight pints of beer that I didn't want to have.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So that's just you following the thoughts. That's the compulsiveness that you were talking about.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that sets up another issue, because obviously it's just that boom. Yeah, that's what I've done. I had no intention of doing it. But then if you tell someone I accidentally had eight pints, that's because society's just like no, what are you on about? You just accidentally. You know what I mean. Yeah.
Speaker 3:There's actually an illness called ruminations. I don't know if you've heard about it, but if you drink a lot of caffeine, certain people have thoughts of killing themselves right, throwing themselves off of buildings and things like that, and they call it ruminations. Well, everybody's ruminating every day, every hour of every day, but obviously you've got different degrees of it and that's all it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when we had Toby Wiltshire about the mindfulness meditation, we were saying that about brain plasticity and building neurons and positive and negative. And it's three times easier to build a negative neuron than it is a negative thought train, than it is a positive, which is, I suppose, that makes sense, because a positive thought train is not a thought, it's a being.
Speaker 3:All thought takes you away from positivity in that way, because what it's doing is it's taking you into your imagination.
Speaker 1:Taking you away from what you can physically.
Speaker 3:Everything positive is just what's here in this present moment.
Speaker 2:Even if it's negative.
Speaker 3:If you're here in this moment, so if you're not in your mind, yes. So let's think of something negative that could be here in this moment. Let's say you're getting your leg amputated.
Speaker 1:I was thinking of too much noise from next studio. That's a bit strong, right.
Speaker 3:But you know, that's extreme, yeah, yeah, because you'd think about the pain and and things like that. But even pain is, it's, a construct of the mind. There's certain people and you can put them in pain or do something to them to cause some kind of pain, and they enjoy it, see. So that's, that's positive and that's because they're not resisting it. So we only suffer from the things that we resist. Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense. So when, when we resist it, we're in the mind, when we don't resist it, we're relaxed and we're here in this present moment. I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I think so. Most of the times when I hurt myself, my first reaction is to laugh yeah, even if it's really really painful. Yeah, yeah, I don't know if that's got anything to do with it.
Speaker 3:Well, it has, you're accepting it and you're laughing. I'll give you an example just to make it a little bit simpler. I went once and had a tooth out and the dentist said to me they said it's left a big hole and it's going to be painful when the drugs wear off. So we recommend that you take a painkiller to. You know, subdue the pain and I felt like, no, this is a good opportunity to see what what pain actually is, because my whole thing at that time was just trying to discover the, the limits of the mind, and, and you know, I'd heard stories that that pain was an illusion, but I hadn't experienced it myself at that time.
Speaker 3:So I went home and I just sat and the pain came when the drugs wore off and it was excruciating pain and I could really feel it. But then I noticed that there was something resisting the pain. And when I noticed the thing that was resisting the pain and I focused on it, the pain, the, the resistance disappeared. The pain was still there but I wasn't suffering anymore. So the suffering completely disappeared with when the resistance disappeared. So you can be, you can be present in this moment and you can have all kinds of things going on, and if you're totally in this moment and not resisting what's going on, then you're not suffering in the same way. So all suffering comes from the mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've read something about this before. I was just trying to think on what book it was in and it was very, very similar. Is it actually the pain, or is it the resistance to the pain that's causing the suffering?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So these are saying what you resist persists.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's the same thing. Anything that we resist will continue to be painful.
Speaker 1:Just trying to think what book it was. So yesterday we were also talking about this thing, that distance in it, I mean, that's similar, isn't it? That's the pain. That this thing, that distance in it, I mean, that's similar, isn't it? That's the pain, that's the same thing. My analogy was during my EMDA last week. It was like think of the most painful point of this incident, but look at it from the distance, it's not from my eyes. Or look at it in black and white, take the colour away. Or look at it from stood away. And what I did? My brain for some reason, just jumped to look at it down a telescope, the wrong way around. I could see it in this little dot, but I couldn't make it out and it was like, well, that's now less painful. Yeah, so I think, is that something that people could try themselves as in without?
Speaker 3:People are probably watching this and thinking what are you talking about? Do you know, I'm not the mind. I'm not the mind, I'm not the feelings, but so it's a little bit like you can, with these eyes, you can see everything phenomenal. You know, you can see all the phenomena with these eyes, but these eyes, they can't see themselves right. So when the mind appears, the you that what that looks at the mind is not the mind. It can't be. The mind is phenomena and the feelings are phenomena. They're not the one that's looking, the one that's aware of these things.
Speaker 3:I don't know if that makes it clearer so it's basically perception all perceptions come from the mind, but even perception is seen from this place. If you say I could perceive something, it means that something, something witnessed perception of something. If you say you know what I had a thought just now, it means that something was aware of a thought.
Speaker 1:If you said do you know what I've just got this feeling, it means that something is aware of feeling yeah, does this relate to what we talked about with the, with the sort of sphincter valve and stuff like that? Are we on that?
Speaker 1:it is actually yeah, because you you were talking about when people are climbing yeah they have to be aware of these things, things that they would normally be unconscious of you know, if we go back to walking in a room and someone's there or something's there and you get a feeling and basically your backside goes a bit. That's what we're relating to with something where I take people out and we go in the mountains or wherever, or climbing, and I tell people if your backside is twitching, something has told your backside to switch and that's part of the vagus nerve in it. And we talked about heartache and I've got a gut feeling. I've got a bad gut feeling. Why have you got a bad gut feeling? Because we don't do. We have feelings in his gut. Well, we do. But where's that perception come from? Because it's not come from my eyes, because if it had come from my eyes or my ears then I'd be aware of it, but I wasn't aware of it. But I can still feel it. Is that what I sort of? Yeah?
Speaker 3:yeah, something's, something's aware of it. So all these things are phenomena that come and go. They're not what you actually are. If you take, if you take all these things away, you, you still are, you still exist. Take away the thoughts, take away the feelings. Something still exists and the one that still exists is the one that's aware of thoughts and feelings coming and going. Can I ask a question? Yeah, Sounds like what?
Speaker 2:Because something just come to me. There's a word for this. Let me just think Deja vu. I don just think.
Speaker 1:Deja vu? I don't know. Deja vu, yeah.
Speaker 2:Pronunciation is different in German, but you're suddenly there and you're like I remember this. Yeah, Is that something like you get a feeling or something. What would you classify it as that?
Speaker 3:So deja vu I would describe as a feeling that feels very familiar. Something I would describe as a feeling that feels very familiar, something that you feel like you've been here before. So yeah, again, something's aware of that feeling and it feels to the. Obviously it's the mind that it feels familiar to, but it's not really what I'm pointing to.
Speaker 1:I was trying to recall how we spoke about it yesterday because it's sort of it's sort of resonant. Is that real worth resonated with me yesterday, seb, have you ever had an experience where you think why have I just done that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think so. Yeah, if I would dig deep enough plenty of times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, follow the thought and it's like who made that?
Speaker 3:yeah, let me give you an example actually. So this is, this is the nature of the mind, so the mind is not working in your best interest. The psychological mind, because the psychological mind. Let's say, you walk into a restaurant and you're with your wife and but as you walk in, there's a girl looking at you. Your wife goes to the toilet and you see this girl looking at you and you think, oh, I'll go over and see if I know her from somewhere, and you know. So you go over and this girl goes, go away.
Speaker 3:You creep, I saw you walk in with your wife. So the same mind, the same thought, that thought I'll go over and talk to this girl and and see if I know her is the same thought that will then say to you you idiot, what did you do that for? And now if, if your wife comes out of toilet and she says something to your wife, do you see? So that's the kind of psychological things that the the mind gets up to. So so it'll talk you into doing something, like you said with the drink, and then it'll berate you afterwards. You idiot, you've made a fool of yourself.
Speaker 1:Even things like putting your foot down in care. Why have I just done that? Or why have I just tried to beat that? I didn't want to do that, but something just went. Go through that. Yeah, I'm just wondering, roy, if, because of what you went through in your younger years and because of my experience with the PTSD, I wonder if that makes us more aware of these bad choices not choices. They're not choices, are they Because the bads that we've followed thoughts rather than thought about.
Speaker 3:It's funny because just before I left you, yeah, yesterday we we had a conversation and I said what if everything happens for a reason? And I said would you have come to this understanding had you not have gone through what you went through? No, I definitely don't know, yeah and I wouldn't have, because we'd have been comfortable. We'd have been comfortable being uncomfortable, but we wouldn't have been uncomfortable enough to try to heal ourselves because we'd have thought no, this is just the norm, this is how things are supposed to be.
Speaker 1:So I mean, yeah, 100%, what happened? Well, it didn't come instantly. Years of suffering and it's still. It's only just sort of now where you know, like I've spoke to a psychologist about it in rooms like, well, you've been suffering for 24 years, yeah, you know, with that, and even then thoughts so if I was to describe it as when I had an image of what went on, it wasn't processed, it went to a thought that might not have actually been real I've thought of and really upsetting upsetting, you know what I mean and that's what that took me to a strange place. By doing that processing, I can sort of handle it now and you're thinking I've gone through that 24 years of my brain or my mind. Is it my mind? Will it?
Speaker 3:Your mind. Yeah, the best way to, I think, explain this, seb, is it's like everything we take in is a little bit like a computer. It's like we're being programmed with the information that comes in, and so we then react to that stimuli that we've always had within our environment, and so this is where the compulsiveness comes. This is where the compulsiveness comes, and so it's really just recognizing that the programming and catching the programming as it's coming in, like the example that you gave yesterday about the bully, where you found yourself just getting really angry and you didn't know why you were getting angry and you'd get a pain in your elbow, and so that was your programming yeah so that's something that happened to you, that you downloaded and then you started to.
Speaker 3:Obviously that was as a child yeah and then, but then, as an adult, you're still continuing those, those programs if I was just to explain that.
Speaker 1:So, part of the amdr, which takes you into a thought process, but we touched on a subject that gave me some anger and then my psychologist said where do you feel that? And I felt it in my jaw and it's because I did it, I wanted to, couldn't speak, and then you do this next bit of amdr, so I'm doing this tapping, and then it took. What do you? What you're feeling? Now? I feel it in my arms and I could feel it in my elbow. Where are you? And I were in a park and it went back and back and back and it unravelled and then it was like, oh, I remember an incident where these guys on pushbikes tried to bully me and I was quiet for so long and then my head went and I just pulled the front wheel of his bike up, so he fell off his bike and strained on my arm and you're like, wow, I've just felt that in my arm and this is the sort of power of the mind, yeah.
Speaker 3:So you've got your conscious mind, you've got your subconscious mind and you've got something in the middle, what's called the conscious critical faculty, and what that does is that filters your thoughts. So if you learn, if you have a belief from being young, let's say, somebody's always told you that you're stupid. You know, your parents have told you that, your teachers have told you that, and it goes from your conscious mind into your subconscious mind. What happens is if somebody later on, as an adult, somebody says do you know? You're actually very intelligent. What happens is you've got your conscious critical mind, which is the thing that stops you from believing anything that is contra to the beliefs that you had in early life. So that's how that works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's some of the stuff that I mentioned before with like Gabor Maté's things about, you know, young people being influenced. You know, in that first few years from between like two and five, From zero to seven, they say.
Speaker 3:because they say that a child's in theta, so you've got the brain frequencies alpha, beta, theta and so once you're waking state and the theta state is just before you go into deep sleep, right, so it's, it's a state of just being so a child from the age of zero to the age of seven is in theta. This is why they take on so much information in those first seven years.
Speaker 1:Before they're subject to being taught things and then directed rather than discovering.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Can I?
Speaker 1:ask you have you ever read a book called the chimp paradox?
Speaker 3:No, I've read about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in chimp paradox I can't remember the name of the author now and he describes as having a human brain, a computer brain and the chimp brain. Yeah, now the computer brain is what we're programmed with. Yeah, the human brain is as Captain O'Neill says, now it's what we're doing, what we are being, but the chimp brain is five times stronger, like a chimp, is five times stronger than a human. Yeah, and it acts on emotion and impulse. Yeah, and it's trying to quieten that it's animalistic, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's by Professor Steve Peters, by the way.
Speaker 1:That's it Right. I think some of the things in it have different theories now, but this thing about following the thought I'm thinking well, you know that sort of resonates with a chimp. So go through them again, so you've got the human computer, which is your programmed brain.
Speaker 3:So you're programmed yeah. And then you've got your chin, but your chin, so your human brain, what does? What kind of?
Speaker 1:I think it's your basic functions, isn't it?
Speaker 3:It's not your emotional brain. So that's what I'd call your practical Right yeah. Yeah, and then the next one I'd call your psychological, and then the next one I would call, yeah, animalistic.
Speaker 1:Cool. And then the next one I would call yeah, animalistic cool. Yeah, is that where the these thoughts? And then you follow these thoughts because it overrides everything else, doesn't it?
Speaker 3:or it sometimes does, which it did with itself so your practical is conscious, yeah, thought you know, I just want to write this down. It's so, it's, it's, it's a utility and that's all it is. And then the psychological is the things that you take on within society, in your environment, that might affect you in, we'll say, positive or negative kind of way. And the animalistic, I would say is the thing that's more in our DNA that we have to transcend to evolve higher than the animal, because you know it's as if we're coming out of the animal into a higher state of call it spirituality, and that's evident that you know that people, we are evolving that way to think more. We're becoming more altruistic, we're connecting more with people around us. You know, like the Internet is a good example how it's connecting people from all over the world and we're getting more of a collective thought process.
Speaker 1:Do you think we had this before? I don't know how would you say Not pre-civilisation, but there's a lot of ancient spirituality. Do you think that's been lost and suppressed and then started like an awakening or a learning?
Speaker 3:Definitely. Yeah, I would, yeah, I'd say all that, I'd say it has been suppressed. I think the human mind cannot comprehend what we're talking about really. Yeah, you know, I can see. You know, when I talk to people about this and I don't really talk that much to people about it, and I did in the beginning but I just saw the confused look on people's faces, the people.
Speaker 3:Unless you have some experience of this, you can't understand it. Yeah, this is, this is ancient knowledge and it was even in the holy scriptures, like your Bible and your Korans and you know your holy books from the Vedas, from India. A lot of the time it was in parables, like in the Bible. These parables, you know, they don't out and out say you're not the mind, you're not the body, you are something much more than that. The mind don't understand that because it's something that is beyond the mind. You have to experience it and this is why I was saying it'd be good to go for a walk just to try to get you to experience some of what I was trying to point to yeah, I think, and we've touched on it, with the walking and surrounded by nature and then connecting with nature, the bilateral movement that we do.
Speaker 1:Again, I'm doing that now. I'm trying to put a label on something that is just a natural.
Speaker 3:Yeah, if we look at nature I mean, this is how we started the conversation yesterday actually we're talking about the trees and the relationship of. You know, the trees give us oxygen. We breathe out carbon dioxide, give it back to the trees.
Speaker 1:And then you spoke about something else, something about the, the spores and the phytocytes the phytocytes, yeah that's what I've just done with the forest bird and thing where we breathe them in. Yeah, and these are natural. It's a natural defense that the trees use to protect the cells. But when we breathe them in they trigger our body to release natural killer cells and then, if we spend time to feel good well, it goes around.
Speaker 1:It basically goes around your circuits, goes around your system and cleans up all your, all the crap. Basically. Hopefully, yeah, and I mean they have turned it into a science forest bathing from shimmering yocu and if you're spending a period of two to three, maybe four hours in a forest environment, you've got elevated levels of these in your system up to a month later. But then even just the feel-good factor of being able to see trees and nature rather than look out you know they did it with office workers where they're looking at a blank wall and then some people that are looking out windows, productivity is open. Obviously they have to think about productivity because that's what it's all that's what they're wanting to do is look at the profits. But that, and then general well-being and happiness.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, yeah. So out in nature, anything in nature brings you back to just what's here. It helps you to be more present with what's here, so you're not so much in the mind. Obviously, if you go out in the woodland and you're on your phone, then you're not going to get that effect.
Speaker 1:Yeah're not getting the. You'll still be breathing, besides the clients in, but you wouldn't be getting that presence. I was just thinking then. You know this thing about being present we're talking about now and people might be thinking what is going on and there, and toby spoke about with his mindfulness, and joe talked about it when we did the kundalini yoga and it's been present in that moment. But this is that's not a new thing, is it? We've had people meditating and being present for thousands and thousands of years. So again, it's. It's not like we're talking bollocks, is it no?
Speaker 3:but it's like I was trying to explain earlier there's a massive difference between understanding this intellectually and actually experiencing. It is a big difference, and this is what we're doing people are learning it intellectually, but they're not actually swallowing it right. And then when they swallow it, then they experience it. And when they experience it, it's like I said, there's all the things of just being at peace within yourself, being more empathetic and things like that. These are just things that just naturally come from it. And all these other things like anxiety and all these things anger. They fall away, they start to dissolve.
Speaker 1:Are there any practices that people could do, methods that they could do with themselves and any information where people can sort of yeah, look and find this?
Speaker 3:yeah, so, like we were saying about creating the distance between them, the thoughts and the feelings, the best practice to start off with is just recognize the thoughts that are coming and going and so to do that, it's just a matter of closing your eyes and just being silent. This is the most important thing is silence and stillness is the most important thing is that aj anthony joshua went into um. He did a four-day darkness thing.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, he went into some kind of thing, and this is the best way actually to just sit in silence and just watch the mind. So if you can do that, then that will free you from the suffering of the mind Because, as I say, that's where all suffering comes from. So the first practice would be to separate yourself from the mind and so to do that, it's just a matter of witnessing, just recognizing that the mind comes and goes, but what you are essentially doesn't come and go. It's the same with the feelings just watch the feelings as they come and then they go. So instead of reacting to them. So naturally, if we've got anxiety, we might you know, you know we intensify actually.
Speaker 3:I worried about expressing it, yeah yeah, yeah, and so it kind of snowballs. So the practice is just to watch the feelings and watch the feelings come up and then watch the feelings disappear, and what you'll find is, as soon as you bring awareness to the mind, if I said, right now, just close your eyes and just witness whatever thoughts come through your mind, see what happens. So what's that experience?
Speaker 1:Do you know what? I have that train thing going through straight away, and I learnt this on Toby's mindfulness thing. I'm trying to look in the gaps rather than the carriages, because on the carriages, as it's going through, it's like how much did I put on car park, how long have we got left, and things like that. And it's like, ah, so that voice is there, isn't it? So you was watching that yeah, so I'm watching that carriage go through. I didn't get on it, yeah what about you?
Speaker 3:seb what happened?
Speaker 2:well, to be honest, I couldn't quite concentrate right on what I was thinking, because I'm quite. No, you're talking about something else. Actually, go on right, because I'm quite affected by noise, because we're in the environment we're currently in. I'm wearing headphones in the studio. I can hear exactly what the people are playing next to me in the studio and it's just overtaking of what I can think.
Speaker 3:It's not stressful. I'm going to say something else to you. Was it that you wasn't thinking Potentially Right? You heard the music, but what you said was I couldn't concentrate on my thoughts.
Speaker 2:That sounds to me like there was no thoughts. Yeah, maybe, yeah, yeah, well, my thoughts said well, I'll explain that yeah yeah, so yours first.
Speaker 3:Right, so you were the one that were witnessing the thoughts coming through. Right, but that's what you're used to doing yeah, I'll put them on that that's actually. That's something that's stuck in your head. Yeah, I'll just watch the thoughts going through. That's what's appeared for you, but what I would say happened we, you said was your mind was playing possum. Do you know what a possum is?
Speaker 1:yeah, is that when it plays, plays dead?
Speaker 3:it plays dead. Yeah, so it's like a little marsupial and and when it sees a predator, it plays dead. And that's what your mind does, actually, because that might have been the first time you've ever done that right. So what your mind does is it goes nothing to see here. Don't look at me, Do you see, so this mind right that causes you all these problems, right, when you bring awareness to it, it's playing awesome.
Speaker 1:I like it yeah.
Speaker 3:So do you see.
Speaker 2:So is that a good thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's because you are far more powerful than the mind. The mind would have you believe that it's in control and you know, but actually what you are is far more powerful as the pure awareness.
Speaker 1:It's a little bit like shining a torch on a dark spot, I suppose would I be correct in saying the mind's like that nagging little half-mate that rings you up to go out for a pint because he wants to go for a pint but you don't really want to. But then you do go out.
Speaker 3:That's a good analogy.
Speaker 1:Well, I've had talks here with him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's exactly it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's like and then hang on, I had things to do, it's worse than that nagging little bit.
Speaker 3:It's more like a salesman that knocks on the door, puts his foot in the door, you let him in, he sits on your sofa, then he's got his feet up on your sofa. Then you've got the sofa, he's got your bedroom and then the next thing he's kicking you out because he's in control. It's more like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right. So this is bringing attention to that and actually kicking him out and he'll come back. He'll knock on the door and say you know, he'll say to the mind I thought I sacked you and he'll say no, no, no, I'm back. You know, it'll always try to come back the mind, but it's staying in that place of just witnessing the mind and not letting anything come in to distract you and pull you away.
Speaker 2:Do you reckon our mind and us as a being are two organisms that live in a symbiotic relationship?
Speaker 3:Symbiotic in a symbiotic relationship. Symbiotic.
Speaker 2:Symbiosis means to be in Like, being involved, like two organisms being involved with each other, but they work alongside each other.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but for something to be symbiotic. It means that you're working hand in hand with each other.
Speaker 1:Usually one's getting more than the other, to be fair, or in nature it does. So. Something like a lichen or something like mistletoe that just oh no, it's parasitic, isn't it? But like lichen. Basically, it's a fungi and algae. One feeds and one photosynthesises, but it's hang on. Well, the algae would disappear if it weren't for the fungi. You know what I mean. The algae would disappear if it weren't for the fungi.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean. No, it's not like that. Because you can be here without the mind, like we've just experimented with. You can be here without the mind, but the mind can't be here without you.
Speaker 2:So the mind is a parasite.
Speaker 3:The mind's a parasite.
Speaker 1:yeah, in the Bible they call it the devil Right yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I suppose that's where it starts to get deep.
Speaker 1:But yeah, when we talk about mental health which is where the mental health podcast and something I've been through myself is battling my demons. But my demons existed in my mind. Yeah, I know people that have succumbed to their demons, which is very sad, but yeah, they are theirs, aren't they? Because no one else knew about what my demons are. They don't know what they are. Theirs, aren't they? Because no one else knew what my demons are. They don't know what they are now. It's just I don't know what they are now and it was just a deer, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's not working in your best interest, because you know people go to the highest buildings and throw themselves off because they can't take what's going on in their minds yeah. So the mind's not working in your best interest. This going on in the minds, yeah, so the mind's not working in your best interest. This is the psychological mind, so we're not talking about the practical mind.
Speaker 1:That's a utility do you have a regular again and go back to practice, or so what would it like sort of schedule for yourself to keep yourself on top of your mind and to be able? You're not controlling it, are you just not being controlled by it?
Speaker 3:yeah, is that right? That's the best way to say yeah, yeah, you're not fighting it I don't know where that came from? Because yeah, yeah, you can't fight it. You would. You would never win a fight with the mind, the mind's king of fighting yeah but you, you simply watch the mind. We use the analogy, yesterday, of the piece of rope, didn't we, in the snake?
Speaker 3:yes yeah, if I use that analogy and lots of teachers use this analogy you talk about how you could walk down the street and there's a piece of rope in the road, but you think it's a snake. And then you dare, didn't go any further. But somebody comes along, say, no, that's actually a piece of rope. And you say, no, mate, it's a snake, I've seen it move. And they go no, I'm sure it's a piece of rope. And they go over and they pick it up and they say, look, it's a piece of rope. And you go I'm sure that were a snake, but it were dark, maybe I could be mistaken. But then the next day you're walking down the same road and you see the same piece of rope and again you say it's a snake and you're afraid of it.
Speaker 3:But the more times somebody comes along and says, look, it's just a piece of rope, then what happens is this belief, because this is what causes the suffering. It's the belief in in the mind, and this is what the mind works with belief. So when that belief dissolves, then that's when freedom of the mind comes. And so my practice is what they call. It's from Advaita Vedanta and it's called self-inquiry, so it's actually looking at these things, these thoughts and these feelings that come up and just questioning the validity, just looking at them and saying, well, is, is this true?
Speaker 3:Let's say, if we use fear as an example, you, you know, you bring attention to this fear that's coming up. You, you were on about yesterday. They'd say to you, where, where in the body is this fear? You might say, well, it's, it's here. So you bring your attention there and say, okay, so I'm the one witnessing this fear.
Speaker 3:Can this fear affect the one that sees it? Just go to your experience and you realize, actually no, the fear doesn't touch the one that sees it. Just go to your experience and you realize, actually no, the fear doesn't touch the one that witnesses it. This is where separation takes place. It doesn't affect the one that sees it. And then you realize this fear comes and goes. Does the one that witnesses the fear come and go? And you look and see and no, the one that witnesses the fear doesn't come and go, it's always there. So who does this fear belong to? And just a line of questioning like that. It's like a process of elimination. Then the illusion or the belief starts to dissolve and then these things fall away just by themselves.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. Well, don't have to make sense. I understand what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, and, like I said, I don't know. That's because I've actually in the past thought to myself where's this come from? You know, I mean and questioned it. Yeah, not intentionally, I don't think, or not through any. You know, it's just been this thing. Why am I doing this or why do I feel like that?
Speaker 3:but what you described with the, the bullying thing and the way that you, these, these images came up and all of a sudden it was like you saw, through the illusion of this, this anger. And so the more times you do that, the less you're going to experience this anger. Yeah, and eventually, because anger is something like fear, it's something that when it comes up, it's very hard not to react out of it. So the first thing that happens is you find yourself not reacting to things that you used to react to. You like look back and you say, wow, I used to be, I used to be so different to what I am now. I used to react a certain way to certain things and then suddenly you're not. And this can happen overnight, actually, with some people, and then some people it takes a little bit longer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's responding to things rather than reacting, isn't it? Yeah, and there is a big difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cool. Can anyone break free from their mind? Yeah, anyone so. But they would need to understand. You mentioned earlier that not everyone would be in position to understand that if you wouldn't be in the position of of your past, then you potentially wouldn't be here now understanding when you're doing this. Yeah, yeah, so maybe some people would never be in that position to understand why they of your past. Then you potentially wouldn't be here now understanding why you're doing this. Yeah, so maybe some people would never be in that position to understand why they would have to do it and then potentially would just look at you weird and be like well, I don't need to break free from my mind because I'm in full control.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's true. Yeah, even trying to speak to them, people, about the mind, you know it wouldn't be worth it. They'd have to be willing to break free from the mind. You know everybody suffers from the mind. You know some people might say, well, no, I'm perfectly fine, but everybody suffers in some kind of way from the mind. When I say anybody can get it, it's like when I go out for walks with people I don't have an intention to kind of do anything, but what happens is something might come up in a conversation and I might say something and they might not even feel like they've taken anything from it at that moment in time, and I don't even know what I've done. I've spoke to people briefly and then they've rung me up months later and said I just really want to thank you for what you said to me. Everybody can get it in some kind of way. Everybody can be healed from the mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I totally agree that thing of separation from what is just a thought and what is. When you look at. Sometimes these thoughts come in, you can follow them, but sometimes, if you don't follow them and examine it, you're like what's that about? Yeah, but then that brings another question where does this thought come from, which is an all new?
Speaker 3:Well, that's the psychological, well, that's the programme.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Just and yeah, like you say, because it does seem to have its own autonomy, if you like how it, how it seems to try to grab your attention, the way that it does it in the sneaky, the sneaky things that it does yeah, but I think, yeah, you've got to be aware that it's that's.
Speaker 1:You've got to have an awareness of that to begin with to start be able to put that in place, haven't you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and what you just said there is once you catch the mind, once you break a habit through catching the mind, something changes within you. I don't know if you've noticed that within yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's such a powerful thing that sometimes it just grabs hold of you. Yeah, and it's better. You know this thing that sometimes it just grabs hold of you, and you know this thing that I've done with EMDI. It's took me to a place, took me a couple of times where I told you, didn't I, with all the cameras flashing, and I've always had this thing of just leave me alone, and that came out actually on that and it was like fucking hell. So now I can put a separation between that, because that is just, it's a reflection and it's an image in my mind, but that's all it is.
Speaker 3:That's an image or a memory. The thing that you have to catch is the feeling. That's what you have to catch. It's the feeling and the thought that comes with the feeling. So that's an image. Okay, the image is different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that's pure anger. Yeah, and it was, and I've said it. It came out twice in the last couple of months, but now I know I'm aware of it.
Speaker 3:So that's the feeling. So you're aware of the anger, but you're aware of it as a kind of image and it's a reaction to that image. Yeah, no, no, it's not. The reaction is to the feeling.
Speaker 1:Yes, so it's been a similar feeling that I felt at that time. Yeah, okay, and it's connected to that image. You have to catch the feeling.
Speaker 3:Yes, forget about the image. Yeah, right, that's where it started, right, but catch the feeling. If you catch the feeling and you catch the thoughts that go with it, then you'll transcend it quick as well. You'll notice just overnight, all that anger. I don't have it anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's one thing that's come up. And again I go back to this why things happen. It's happened for a reason and you're in here and we're talking about this as I'm experiencing this other sort of method.
Speaker 3:I experience these things all the time. This is nothing new to me.
Speaker 1:So where are we now, Roy? Are you in a good place?
Speaker 3:Oh, very, very good place. Yeah, just at peace, like I said. So let me maybe describe Mostly just a complete peace within myself and also empathy. You know I can very easily help people. You know. Know, I don't feel there's no judgment. So I remember, prior to this, I'd meet people and I'd be weighing them up. That don't happen anymore.
Speaker 1:I think people feel that as well when you're doing that yeah, I'm not going to blow wind up your pipe up your pipe, but yeah, we did mention that yesterday. That there's, you know. Yeah, you are a very calming person. Yeah, I mean, even though we know you've got some history and some colourful history. But that comes off you otherwise we wouldn't have been talking as we did yesterday and as we're talking now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and with that kind of history, normally you do experience a lot of anger, a lot of resentment. All that's just gone. It's just gone. I couldn't have sat here even a couple of years ago. I couldn't have sat here. Even a couple of years ago, I couldn't have sat here and spoke to you like this. I'd have been shaking and I'd have been thinking about people watching and and all these things. But there's, there's something that's a lot calmer. In fact, that would have been, that would have been my bugbear out of everything. This would have been my worst nightmare. So so many things change. I don't. I'm not trying to sell it, but it's. It's the best thing that anybody can do I'm just having.
Speaker 1:I just had a thought then about what I read in some minute. I book anyway. You know something with road rage. So somebody, you, you pull it up to the. You know where the contra flows come in and, uh, you know the cones are out and someone cuts in front of you. Yeah, someone cuts in front of you. You're just driving and there's a gap and they cut in front of you and you get angry and you start beeping on and you're shouting and bawling at them. You're not doing anything. Your mind is just upsetting you, isn't it? That's the thing. So we just have to let all that go. What's the point?
Speaker 3:There's a saying that it's like drinking poison and expecting somebody else to drop dead right, and that's exactly what it's like, and that's exactly what you're doing yeah, and on a sort of science, although I'm not a scientist on a science level.
Speaker 1:You're just flooding your body with exactly, that's the adrenaline and cortisol, yeah all, which are all going to cause inflammation, and it's just a cycle in it yeah, can I just intervene here, charlie?
Speaker 2:I get a roger quite a bit and. I'm very passionate about it. I'll tell you why. It's because these people on the motorway don't know how to drive and it gets me because the way they drive they make me unsafe and that's why I get angry. I don't care how they drive, but because they make me and other people unsafe on the road.
Speaker 1:That's why I get angry. But when you get angry you make yourself unsafe.
Speaker 2:I would say yes, I would agree with you, because I then lose concentration on what I do in a certain way.
Speaker 1:But yes, yes and yes and yes. If I was to put it this way, I'm not here to teach a lesson about road rage, but if somebody's already performed an action and you can't change it, is there any point responding to it or reacting to it. You can respond to it. Do you know what I started doing? I started letting people out at junctions. I do that yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was a conscious decision, because it calmed my driving down. Yeah, I mean, I'm just like, yeah, let yourself out. And you know what? Because I used to hate it If people came out, I'd let them out of the junction, and they don't waver or whatever. I'm just like, well, they've not got the manners. You know what I mean, but what I've discovered?
Speaker 3:was, but you've evolved quite a lot.
Speaker 1:I've had to. I've had to, because I was just it yeah you will, it's not feeling better. It's not making myself feel worse. What's happening?
Speaker 3:exactly, exactly. But you're talking about seb is somewhat, totally so. What you're talking about is reactive. You're reacting to the mind and actually do you ever ask yourself the question why, in these situations, everybody else is always wrong and you're right? Yeah, it's very true, yeah that's the psychological mind, which is also they call it, the ego, because it always has to make itself right.
Speaker 1:Those you know, and this is where we go right back to where we started with the ayahuasca, because that's loss of ego, exactly.
Speaker 3:It's all part of the same thing. Ego is. When I talk about psychological mind, I'm talking about the ego or the animalistic mind, but I put them two together. As you know, the same thing, the things that you need to transcend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll be honest, it's been enlightening, it's been a journey.
Speaker 2:It's taken me on a small journey here, yeah, and I didn't get any road rage Until the end.
Speaker 1:Roy, thanks for your time. Yeah, two podcasts and the walk, I mean, the walk were great. Yeah, I don't know, because you're not like a, you don't hire yourself out as a teacher or anything, do you? No, I or anything, do you? I mean?
Speaker 3:it's there for people. Yeah, if they. You know, usually it's people around me, but now I've joined an organisation. All right, engage, engage leads, okay, so that's just going around helping people. Oh brilliant, and so I'm hoping to do something with mindfulness with them. They're looking to find venues that we can use and maybe talk to people.
Speaker 1:That'd be brilliant. Yeah Well, if you let us know, in future we'll obviously put that out for your social medias. Yeah, so cheers, mate. That's been brilliant. Unfortunately, you don't get two cups, two mugs. You got the one mug. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you Roy. Yeah, Very enlightening, and although it might sound a bit mind-boggling for some people, it sounded a bit mind-boggling for me, but it all kind of makes sense. You just got to give it a go, yeah yes, so thank you very much yeah, pleasure, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks, lads cheers and if you'd like to support us and help us keep the podcast going, then you can go to BuysACoffee or you can click that on our website, whitefoxtalkingcom, and look for the little cup. Thank you.
