White Fox Talking
Talk About Mental Health & Well-Being… Why Not? Mark ‘Charlie’ Valentine suffered life changing mental illness, before beginning a journey to recovery and wellness; the darkness of PTSD transformed by the light atop mountains and beyond. Mark is now joining forces with Seb Budniak, to make up the ‘White Fox Talking’ team. Through a series of Podcasts and Vlogs, ‘White Fox Talking’ will be bringing you a variety of guests, topics, and inspirational stories relating to improving mental well-being. Find your way back to you! Expect conversation, information, serious discussion and a healthy dose of Yorkshire humour!
White Fox Talking
E65: Abbie Barnes on Breaking Barriers and Embracing Identity
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Have you ever felt like the healing power of nature could transform your life? Meet Abbie Barnes, a filmmaker, presenter, inspiring public speaker, mountain leader, and YouTuber, whose remarkable journey through adversity has led to the founding of Spend More Time in the Wild. In our engaging conversation, Abbie reveals how the solace of the outdoors provided refuge during childhood struggles with bullying, shaping a passion for encouraging others to harness nature's therapeutic benefits.
Abbie’s story is not just about personal healing but also about confronting and overcoming challenges when first entering the outdoor industry, where Abbie faced negativity and discouragement.
Abbie shares candidly of a personal journey, which touches on themes of identity, mental health, and finding strength in vulnerability. Abbie opens up about living authentically as a trans non-binary individual and the challenges of balancing societal expectations with personal acceptance. Through resilience and authenticity, Abbie has carved a path of empowerment, using experiences to foster and supportive community where others can embrace their true selves. Abbie shares personal insights into the connections between nature and mental well-being, underscoring the transformative power of showing up wholeheartedly for oneself.
Listeners will gain valuable insights into self-care and mindfulness practices that have supported Abbie’s growth and mental health. From using a camera as a tool for self-expression to building a mindful relationship with food, Abbie’s story is a testament to the importance of creativity, gratitude, and self-awareness. Abbie’s narrative encourages us to break free from societal constraints and find joy and balance in life.
Join us as we uncover the lessons and inspirations from Abbie Barnes, whose passion for the outdoors and authenticity serves as a guiding light for those seeking empowerment through nature and self-expression.
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Hello and welcome to the White Fox Talking Podcast. I'm Matt Chalavantine and Seb is at the controls. Hi, charlie. Thank you, seb, for being at the controls. You're very welcome. What were you doing then? It looked like you were trying to rewire the space shuttle. Yeah, someone has to do some work around here. Wow, digs already. Eh, I mean, my work's not just confined to this studio. You know, this hour and a half we're there, mate. Yeah, well, I was going to ask you how we are, but obviously you're on form today. All right, you know I started yoga again.
Speaker 1:Oh, did you? Yeah, Good, good, good, good, good man. That's what's happening. How's that going it's? I'm not doing that run. Yeah, it's only six or seven weeks, but I'm just getting into that mindset of running. I don't even think it's the running. I think the more that you run or, for me, the more that you run, or the more that I run it means that my legs don't just hurt when I'm running, they hurt all the time and that's what I've got to expect and get used to. I'm just past it, mate, past it. Anyway, on with today's guest. So I'm very happy to welcome Abi Barnes onto the White Fox Talking Podcast. The White Fox Talking Podcast is sponsored by Energy Impact.
Speaker 3:Hello Abi, Hello, how are we doing?
Speaker 1:Excellent, you can hear us, yeah.
Speaker 3:I can hear you. Yeah, Perfect Rewired.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, Well done, seb. Thank you, mate. Thank you, so would you give the listeners a brief introduction? I know that you've done some public speaking as well, so I'm expecting that we don't have to do a lot today.
Speaker 3:All right, here we go. Pressure's on Foot to the metal. Well, hey, everybody, I'm really excited to be here joining you all today. My name is Abi. I am a filmmaker, presenter, mountain leader, YouTuber. Quite frankly, I don't really know what I am. I'm just a human being figuring out life, and somehow I'm the founder of an organization called Spend More Time in the Wild, which is all about inspiring and empowering people to get outside for the benefit of mental and physical health, whilst giving back to the natural world to leave the planet in a better place. Essentially so. I host one of the longest running YouTube channels on outdoor adventure in the world. I do a bit of public speaking sort of inspirational work to help empower people to get outside. I run walks and just generally gallivant around the world, being rather merry about wild places. So yeah, that's roughly me in a nutshell.
Speaker 1:I've seen you speak a couple of times now, and the first time, I think, it was at Keswick when, funnily enough, I had a technical nightmare there as well when I was doing my talk.
Speaker 3:So you're the course, oh no hands up.
Speaker 1:I am awful with technology. I'll just press buttons and pull leads out. My excuse is well, I've actually been in therapy for this man, to be honest. So anyway, we'll talk about that another time. So, yeah, I've done these. I've seen you speak a couple of times and then you were podcasting and I think probably being on your podcast led to us actually starting this, starting our own podcast, because it's that idea, that of having knowledge and having history and experience and being able to broadcast and share it to other people, because sometimes do we need people in offices prescribing us things when it's people that have experienced things? So I'm going to thank you for that straight away, for being a bit of inspiration behind the podcast and public speaking. So thank you very much. So how and why did you get into the well-being stuff? Do you think because we are on the mental, mental health area, because that is what we are looking at?
Speaker 3:sure. I mean it's a long old story so it's very much an ongoing saga. It's a little bit like narnia I meant permanently unfolding. I like to think I live in narnia actually.
Speaker 3:Anyway, side note, so I grew up in a very outdoorsy family. We would be hiking, you know, every weekend, every holiday up to the Lake District, yorkshire, and that was all very nice for me and my family, just sort of bringing nature in all the time. But sort of during that time as a young person sort of primary school onwards I was really struggling at school so I was very severely bullied. I ended up actually going to five different schools and every single one I was physically, verbally and emotionally bullied. Stories ranging from people trying to burn me with cigarette ends to locking me in changing rooms and spraying aerosols that I couldn't breathe and had to climb out of the changing room toilets, so just calling me all sorts of different things which just hit on all possible soft spots as a you know, as a young person and sort of that sense of security that's needed from having a place of belonging. So I never had like my tribe, my community within the schools. Moving around as well just meant I was quite sort of nomadic in character, but also it's just very different. You know, I was a typically a lover of the outdoors, whereas you know a lot of people particularly if you were to gender, sort of male and female were sort of pursuing the very typical stereotypical sort of male and female things like the sports and the fashion, and I was sort of into neither of those but just quite liked getting muddy and looking for wood lice, which was just the thing. But then, sort of parallel to that, whilst we had our sort of family holidays and things, home didn't feel particularly safe for a whole bunch of different reasons, and so I sort of just lacked as a young person that foundation of belonging, of security, of knowing that I was okay as a human being, and so I started to find my solace and my sanctuary in the natural world.
Speaker 3:So we lived right on the end of town, so our sort of house looked out over a whole bunch of fields and every morning, evening, in fact every spare time that I had, I was out in those fields, sort of just exploring, learning, just being a kid, climbing trees, falling in the brook, making pottery, which I thought was amazing Really wasn't, but you know, out of the clay, that harvest from the stream and that was my very tactile, really wasn't. But you know, out of the clay that harvest from the stream and that was my very tactile sensory like upbringing and place that I felt safest and quite frankly I think I'm able to say that was really the first place I've felt a sense of identity, which has been a massive theme in my life. I'm sort of exploring my sense of identity but yeah, it was sort of when I was around 12, 13 years old that I was given a Sony disc camera by my dad for Christmas, off the back of, you know, being really passionate about sort of the David Attenborough series and all of these natural world films, and he gave me that video and I started to document the local wildlife. So I got very like intimately engaged with the different species that were living around our home, so like I would literally watch our fox, cubs and badgers babies come out of their dens and retrospective places like right as little babies, their first emergence, and I'd film that on camera and I'd have my camera trap and I'd put that up and the deers and just all of the animals. I even had like a little whistle to let them know that, the deers that it was, and it was so crazy, just the repetitive nature of being out there, how they stopped running away. Essentially they were like, oh, it's just that person doing the thing. So that was like a really big obsession with mine, I guess you could say. Or just my, my safe place, my home, my sense of belonging. And then, as time evolved, I started to piece together some of this footage and thought, okay, you know, maybe I could get into sort, get into sort of the wildlife film scene, and this is all around the age of 13, 14, just deciding to sort of direct my energy on this one career path, this one passion of mine.
Speaker 3:And so one day I read a book by a children's author called Michael Mopurgo. I think many of us are familiar with his amazing stories and the book was about this young boy and his mum being in Indonesia and then the Boxing Day tsunami hits and tragically, his mum gets washed away and this young boy ends up alone in the jungle and he ends up living with his two baby orangutans who have also lost their mother, and it's a very engaging story for a young person. But the most memorable, powering part of the story was when this young boy and the orangutans who'd been living off figs and in this oasis of the jungle end up stumbling out into this palm oil plantation. And essentially it's a monoculture. It's one single crop, these palm trees which grow palm oil or the palm kernel.
Speaker 3:And I sort of just learned about the deforestation of the rainforest and I was like, oh my gosh, this is happening, I didn't know this was a thing. And forest, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is happening, I didn't know this was a thing. And it was just one of those like life-changing light bulb moments. And so I started to use the camera to talk about this issue and illegally downloaded a whole bunch of images and videos off the internet, slapped them on top of my running commentary about did you know? And I entered it into a young person's film competition and then, off the back of that, I actually ended up winning. I got sent to the Parliament, I spoke in front of MEPs about the issue and then, a couple of years later, amongst some other lobbying and setting up World Orangutan Day, we actually ended up changing the EU law so that Parmel had to be legally labelled when it was in an ingredient, so that consumers could make an informed decision as to whether or not to buy that product and then from there it really sort of just jet-boiled in a whole like one clear direction.
Speaker 3:There's a whole bunch of other awards that I won, including interacting with Sir David Attenborough on a film about marine debris, and then I ended up going through college and I was really well supported through that time of my life. My education system at college was amazing in terms of right. This is what Abi does. Abi makes films. Let's help Abi tell better stories. Bigger stories reach a bigger audience, and it's sort of just well, I'd like to say it's snowballed since then, but it's sort of snowballed, avalanched. We've had some droughts in there. You know it's not been a straightforward journey, but that's kind of how it began.
Speaker 1:Wow, so quite a lot there to be fair. But if you don't mind, can we go back to right at the start with the sort of bullying? And please tell me if you don't want to talk about it, because I'm just wondering the reasons for that. Do you think it's because you were moving around quite a bit and I think you're moving to a new school and it's always awkward or moving to a new environment with new people, and how did that sort of has that affected you in later years? It's obviously caused some drive from the way that you've found your way out of it.
Speaker 3:I think it's a really interesting one and I suppose the bullying is actually something that's left like the smallest mark on my life and yet it has put me in the position I'm in today because it's a huge part of, like, my foundational upbringing. But I think I can't really say, oh yes, it's because of one thing or the other, but the thing with certainty is that I was an individual, I was different, I was a unique character who had passion and drive. Even at that point and I do personally believe that people resonate energies and my energy clashed with most of what was going on around me I had a very clear vision of what I wanted to do with my life. I had purpose and I think you know, a lot of the bullying was physical. That's really the stuff that I do find every now and then like pops into my head, but people often ask me funnily enough, I'm not wearing it now but what's the story with the hat? So I'm very well known for wearing sort of a I guess it's a cowboy Australian outback hat which I've had since I was 13 years old. Yes, my head has not grown since I was 13 years old Shocking.
Speaker 3:So that hat was a real statement moment in my life, because I remember being in the shop with my dad and I tried on the hat and he was like, oh, it suits you. And I just felt this wave of like this is a moment to choose you Because, you know, as a kid I was sort of like dipping in and out of the skater culture. You know like, oh, let's follow this, like music fan group and this and that and the other. But it wasn't actually driven by me, it was driven by like trying to fit in. And then when I put on that hat, it just was like that just pure transcendence into my future of like this is your direction and you need to stay on that course. So I got the hat and I was perpetually bullied by it, like, just, you know, I mean, people would take it away, they'd run away, they'd hide it, but I wore that hat relentlessly because it was like this is me and it was trying to. It was almost like that statement of fearlessness, rather than it being a security blanket, it was like stay true to you and their whole indiana jones themes tune has followed me my entire life. But kids will be kids, you know.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I, I don't know. I think it was just a lot to do with that. I think, also, like people do, it's just like when you're a kid at school who actually like, really studies and pushes to get good grades. It's like you're teased for being a nerd and then, if you like, don't make any effort, you're teased for being a dropout or whatever you know. So it's just. That was just my thing, I think. And then I was called gay and I was called fat a lot, and I think those are two things that have actually really stuck around in my life, just sort of my journey with eating disorders and then again my journey with identity.
Speaker 1:So sort of processing those two things which came into my life quite early on and sort of what that's meant for me as a, as a young person and then an adult so you found that like engaging with nature and filming nature, would you say that was, that was something you would have, you hoped you would have found anyway by, by not fitting in, or do you think you were? By not, I don't want to say that you didn't fit in, the crowd didn't accept you, so you moved away from that because it is an option and we don't have to try and force us where it falls into crowds that we don't want to be in.
Speaker 1:So you chose to move away from that. I forgot what I was saying, but do you think you'd have gone there anyway?
Speaker 3:yeah, I reckon. So that's sort of why I always start with saying it was quite an outdoorsy family. It's not like we didn't have that exposure. I didn't. I had a huge amount of access. I possibly had more than the average child, especially growing up where I grew up, particularly nowadays especially. So I do reckon I would have landed up there. It sort of seems to be in my inherent nature to just be like nature is home and that's just how I'm wired. But that just so happened to be my path.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm trying to avoid the outdoor education stuff, Sepp, Because I always go on about working with it. Well, I'm just thinking you know you're engaged with nature and it makes you different and sort of isolated, but it's possibly not engaging with nature. That's the problem with a lot of the young people anyway that we're seeing results of these days.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you know it wasn't just kids that sort of slagged me off for it. You know, I did join edinburgh and I was kicked off because I knew too much. So I remember we were specifically going around with the group, you know you practice your nav, and they were like abby, go over there. Like you already know how to read a map, so they just completely cut me off from the rest of the group. So I never even had like adult support so I didn't end up going through the duke of edinburgh scheme and's just. That's happened time and time again. You know, with my experience with mountain training, trying to train as a mountain leader, it's just obstacle, obstacle, obstacle. And I think that's why, like resilience is so inherent in like my bucket of attributes, because it just has to be. It's not come easy, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's one of them where you can fold, can't you? Or you can work your way around the hurdle. Yeah, well, I think we all do, don't we? I know Seb has, you know, these hurdles get put in front of you and we either tackle them, which obviously you do, or we don't. We just stay at that point. Yeah, I think. Yeah, the outdoor stuff. I used to teach DAV and you always got a strong person that had done some nav with their parent or with someone else and then rest at group, just sit there eating, eating, mars bars and stuff. So that is an awkward, but yeah, that is an awkward one. I don't know if you want to talk about the mountain training thing, because I know you've spoken about it before.
Speaker 3:I don't know that well yeah, happy to, yeah, yeah, so essentially I again, you know, as a young person, 18 was like right, you know, how do I bring nature into my life? I was actually working as a personal trainer at the time, sort of the film industry, broadcast industry, extraordinarily hard to get into and you'd be a bit daft to not at least have some kind of like extra thing going on. So I was like, right, you know, let's get in with mountain training. It's like right, you know, let's get in with mountain training. Who's like the governing body for outdoor leadership qualifications, from lowland leader, hill and moorland leader, mountain leader, and then on it goes winter and so on. And I was like, right, cool, well, based upon my level of experience, my logbook which you type into the computer, I can go straight for my mountain leader training because I've got the experience, I've got everything I need. So I went for this.
Speaker 3:18 year old, you know, a lot of drive, a lot of passion, but also a huge amount of curiosity and I'm very, I've always been somebody who's like, hey, I'm here to learn, like, teach me what you know. And, long story short, it was a hugely deflating, confidence threshing, soul sapping experience. The chap who took the course was doing all sorts of like more extreme activities in terms of teaching us, like making us run down a scree slope with a pebble on the back of our hand and if we dropped it we'd have to go back up and go all the way back down again to sort of teach how to move safely quote unquote on steep grounds, and it was actually a very dangerous activity. But you just sort of did what the instructor said. But at the end of it the thing that really destroyed me was he said abby, you're never going to make a mountain leader, you're too fat and you just lack the the qualities to be a mountain leader. So I've already mentioned how that was something that was sort of a theme in my childhood and I would like to stress, I was not unfit, you know, I was a strong character, I was very educated in sort of the theme of movement and physical activity and it just was completely the wrong thing. There was no encouragement. He's just like shut the door on me and the impact that that had was, basically, it was another seven years until I had the confidence to take my assessment. It was another seven years until I had the confidence to take my assessment, which was, I think, 2021, now April 21. No, sorry, 22.
Speaker 3:And it because I sort of thought that the assessment was going to be this military sergeant who was judging my every move was going to like throw me down a mountainside and see if I bounced, and was going to like measure my waistline and how macho I was and how many hairs I had on my face. I made sure not to shave for a while, you know, like all of these things. And it was. It was really hard, you know, and I it sort of put me off working in the outdoor industry.
Speaker 3:I did end up a few years later going and doing my hill and moorland because I thought, okay, clearly I need to step back here and I I breezed through that. It's like I did it with my eyes shut. It was great fun, but I was like no mountain leaders, definitely like the qualification for me, but it was purely a confidence thing. And you know, I remember the night before my first day on assessment, which I did in Snowdonia, north Wales, it was, I was just such a nervous wreck, you know, it was just awful. But then, triumphing through that assessment was a bit of a superpower moment where it's like, okay, so clearly I can be strong enough and I am capable, and those things were not truths. But as a young person, you're so susceptible to what people you look up to feed back to you that it was just a very crushing experience to have to navigate yeah, I think I mean on the four mountain train, because I have been course directing quite a number of assessments and trainings.
Speaker 1:Now I suppose there is a variation in teaching. But yeah, teaching and instruction and delivering, I mean I don't call myself an instructor, I call, you know, a coach, mainly because it's there to encourage the best out of people. So I'm hoping it's just a bad experience that you had, but it shouldn't have happened, should it really?
Speaker 3:No, I think that the shocking thing is, since actually daring to speak up about it, which has only been in the last couple of years, the number of people, particularly folks that identify as female, that have come forward and said, like, look, I've had something similar or there was just inherent sexism on this group and it's just sort of opened a bit of a can of worms. And I think that's quite a theme for me and what I do with my work, with Spend More Time in the Wild is I talk about the hard things, the vulnerable things, and it creates space for other people to do the same. But I also I do agree with you. I do think the outdoor industry is an incredibly supportive, uplifting, strengthening network of people.
Speaker 1:We just need to keep keep working on that and building our strength through unity, and I think there's a bit of a transition going on, as in the old school and some of them You're not on SAS assessment, sas selection, because obviously I found my sort of pathway through from PTSD and heavy reliance on alcohol and partying etc. Several vouchers from there and basically did you know the mountain training schemes? Several vouchers from there and basically did you know the mountain training schemes, but I never I never told anyone about the ptsd until I'd got winter mountain leader because I saw that as validation. But then you know, it's just in recent even yeah, like recently. I'm thinking why have I been seeking validation from anyone? Really do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:yeah so I mean, I've seen you and I've known you a couple years, so I I thinkdeserved you didn't go back to the same provider, did you?
Speaker 3:No, absolutely not. I thoroughly researched, had a lot of conversations, sent her. This is how I'm feeling. Email to who I was. In fact, I don't mind saying if you don't mind, but it was Louise Freedom Outdoors in. North Wales.
Speaker 1:She was a lovely supportive lass and was very understanding yeah, so can I take it from this person that's been bullied, not sort of fit in with crowds. I'm not wanting to fit in with crowds, I would, I would. What are we right there? Yeah yeah, and then sort of isolation of, because I suppose being filming wildlife is isolating because you want to be by yourself anyway. Do you know what that story when you told me that reminds me of? Have you read chris packham's book fingers in the sparkle jar?
Speaker 1:oh yes yes, what a, what a book, beautiful book, I mean, that talks about his autism and stuff like that and being a bit different, but but what I'm trying to get is that. But then you've come around and you've come to this public speaking role and podcasting about you know, and putting yourself in the forefront. So what started all that?
Speaker 3:I think it's a good question. I've sort of questioned this myself all the time because I do live in a constant conundrum of where am I in all of this? You know, because with what I do with wilds, I am sort of the forefront of it. I'm the presenter, I'm, I am wild. It's such a gray line or gray zone between, like, what's business, what's abby, and it's sort of just become my life. But wild was birthed out of my struggles with my mental health and what I was going through with all of that, in a sense of basically working as a personal trainer.
Speaker 3:I decided I wanted to get back into filmmaking and I'd done a lot of hiking as a kid. So I decided to go and do some solo hikes. Naturally, me being me had to sort of come up with a big project which was to do the national trails challenge, as they called it, and to hike all of the uk's designated national trails at the time there were 15, two and a half thousand miles to document each trail, make a film for my new youtube channel, which just had like badgers and rabbits and snails on it, essentially. And there I was, on the third trail of 15. I was amazing, I really got that far and sort of the real pivotal moment for me was when I just started this trail and I found myself on a motorway bridge and I I just remember like snapping too in my consciousness on the other side of this motorway bridge, like essentially preparing to jump, and I the camera was just dangling around my neck and I was like what I mean? You know how it is in hindsight it sort of ties together a little bit tidier, but ultimately, like way I've processed it is, that moment was the moment that I realized I needed to stop hiding and I started to talk to the camera about what I was experiencing. So to talk about sort of the attempts to take my life in the past and somewhat to talk about sort of the self-harm that I was experiencing, the eating disorders and the battles. Essentially I was fighting through these trails. So I only ended up hiking the three. I did finish that trail but then I pulled the project and it's been a long and bumpy road since then, sort of working with my mental health and on my mental well-being and sense of again identity and security, and it's something I juggle every single day.
Speaker 3:But it was through that moment, on that motorway bridge, that Wild was really born. Because the concept of Wild is to be authentic, it is to be vulnerable, it is to show up wholeheartedly for yourself and for the world that we live in. Those are the inherent values and I started to live that out there and then and it was like maybe a year or so later that Spend More Time in the Wild as a brand was born and thus sort of started using trails as a means for sort of using nature as a metaphor. Through that journey the journey as a life, as a metaphor for how we can work through life's obstacles and my community started to grow to what ultimately now is 11 million viewers.
Speaker 3:But in addition to that, you know I've been struggling with chronic pain for a huge percentage of my life and I think you know what drives me to bother to put myself out there is to give my pain purpose, and that's really what it's about. You know, like physical pain is almost easier for some people to understand, but it's like I'll be in pain doing nothing because it's chronic pain. So I'd much rather be in pain doing something. So it's how can I use that pain to empower myself to do more things? And where it does block me going one way to sort of weasel my way around another way and do the thing anyway. And that's sort of why I still run wild, because it still is essentially almost like a coping strategy for life and enables me to do a lot of what I do but also, frankly, to live with myself yeah.
Speaker 1:So can I just take you back to because we've just listed eating disorders and then possibly, you know, taking your own life attempts and also self-harm. Have these all been sort of? Have you had them all diagnosed? What was the pathway to getting through them? Was it just yourself or have we gone down the medical route? Have we gone down the sort of therapy route?
Speaker 3:a mixture of everything. So I did seek help, probably around college. Well, no, it was at college time, sorry. That was when I say I sort of learned the language of mental health. So things were particularly bad at home and I was sort of obviously struggling to process a lot of different things and on any given day I had to see my tutor, the chaplain person and the college nurse every single day so they could ensure that I was safe and just actually getting some food in and sort of checking on my injuries. So I felt very like cared for there, but that it was through their concern that I really started to understand how much I was struggling. But also had been struggling and and it was through working with them that I understood that I'd actually already tried to take my life twice, first time when I was 13 years old, and I didn't really understand what I had done, or just didn't have the language rather to sort of describe what I had done. And then they were like oh, you know, it sounds like this has happened, but yeah, sort of after college it just sort of continued.
Speaker 3:I lost that support and so I ended up trying to get professional medical help and the nature of my life. I ended up under secondary care under the NHS. I had a care coordinator who I would see every week and this person seemed to just quite enjoy our meetings because as far as they were concerned it's like, oh, I'll be somebody who's got it together, because they're what they called high functioning, even though I was every single day just in extreme mental distress and agony, trying not to end my life. I was covered in quite horrific wounds. Food was just all over the place, really unhealthy. I just wasn't getting the care and support that I needed there. But I knew I had to keep showing up for those sessions, otherwise they would be pulled. That was a very clear threat to me.
Speaker 3:Every now and then I'd see another professional who was like, why don't we try you on this tablet? That tablet, you know, just chucking things at me without even really having a conversation and truthfully I never took any of them for fear of the consequences of these tablets. But also I my, my gut, which I trusted from a very young age, was saying like you're not being seen and listened to here, like I understand, I've been brought up to be aware that you know medication has side effects and can be dangerous and you need to take the right thing, and I just knew that for me and this is purely a for me situation medication was not the right thing at that time. I needed love and care and attention that I wasn't getting from anywhere as a young person.
Speaker 3:And then what happened was Covid hit in 2020 and I missed one session, and that was it. I lost the only little bit of support I had for my mental health. They just said I'd missed the session, so I didn't need the care anymore, and there was as much as I argued that they were like no, sorry, you're back on a waiting list. You've got eight years, mate. Yeah, so that was that yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I said would you say that I were functioning back in my day? Probably not barely well. I'm just drawing sort of parallels because I honestly think that my, when I was going through worst of my stuff in that first seven, seven years, then the excessive drinking was a just a just not a diversion technique, but but also probably to self-harm, you know what I mean, because it was that.
Speaker 2:It was your escapism, wasn't it? But it didn't do you any good.
Speaker 1:No, it didn't do anyone any good, did it? Let's face it? Only Darwin in Leeds, but bad for most of the bars in Leeds.
Speaker 3:But that's the point, though. What is functioning, and who is anybody to define that? When you know that you're not living your best life? That's the instinct and the voice that you matter the most, not somebody else saying, oh, this is how you should be. Oh, you can do your teeth, you're all right. It's like, well, yeah, but no, it's like, do you know how hard it is to do my teeth? You know, and everything else beyond that, but it's just that some characters it's just like to quit. You know, because you know that that's how you keep going and you stay alive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, similarly, they gave me this was right in the early days they gave me sleeping tablets because I just wouldn't sleep because of the flashbacks that were horrific at the start and I remember taking a handful and just going getting up. Well, I don't suppose it was intentional as in an attempt, do you know? I mean, but thinking by the deal that could have been, that could have been a lot worse. I wouldn't have been here now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but similar stories and also, I think some of I can't. I'm not going to try and name a book, because I can't remember what it is that I've listened to. They were talking about the devil manifesting itself, and it's basically your, your, your own mind, isn't it just well, you know what's telling me to have that extra pint or that extra drink. You know what I mean. It's leading you down that pathway and it's controlling that. And if you're not controlling it, if you're not looking after your body, if you're not looking after your physical self, then your mental self is suffering and it's probably not leading you in the right direction.
Speaker 3:Well, you actually raise an interesting point there. Something I don't necessarily talk about too much is I was also brought up in a very religious family and now, as in place that I am in life, I can see how it really warped my sense of self as well. And you know, I'm not anti anyone to do what you want, folks, but it's like for me at the time no-transcript what I listened to, the people I connected with, because like that was so limited, you know, it's just nature. That was my entire sphere of like this is the only thing that I have.
Speaker 3:And then that's what the care coordinator took as oh, abby's functioning, abby has nature, abby gets outside, but it's like, well, I have to because that's the only place I can be and I can actually take a breath deeper than, like, the top of my lungs, you know, and it's it's pure survival. And just because you're surviving doesn't mean you're thriving. And just because you're surviving doesn't mean you're thriving. And just because you're surviving doesn't mean you're high functioning. It just means you're adapting and you're understanding these are the confines of your cage, and just because you can pace them doesn't mean being in a cage is the right thing you know, and this is sort of what we deal with and so many people deal with when asking for help with their mental health and dealing with physical pain as well.
Speaker 3:It's like you can ask for help, but you need to land with the right person to actually get the help, which I believe ultimately turns back on yourself, and it's like what's your innate wisdom saying? You know what? Where is this coming from? What can we do with this information? How can we empower you to move forwards?
Speaker 1:that must be so sort of mentally debilitating to be living to, living in wanting to know how you want to express yourself but not being able to know, not being able to express yourself because society is putting all that down in it. And I'm not trying to compare the two, but when I had the you know the man, the fuck up because of you know your mental well, yeah, I am, I am, but I'm not allowed to some of the traits from there. I mean, I wonder how I drank so much Kept profits up though Kept profits up, ramlead, kept a lot of people in a job Kept a lot of people in a job yeah.
Speaker 1:Local business and businesses in other countries as well. Yeah, I mean, we talk about that and you say about living in a religious family, but there's millions of people around the world still in that situation. And I mean, should we talk about what's going on in America? I mean, I don't want to get away from yourself, but fuck's sake, dangerous, dear me. You know, you're just like you know, people not being allowed to express themselves. Do we make any wonder there's so much you know that mental health is such an issue. Anyway, is that my rant for the? Day, so can I have another letter?
Speaker 1:you can have three, three, yeah. So nature would you say that was your medicine. Yeah, and also I would I mean medicine meditation. You know, because we can. We can move them, words around, because when you're going out and you're studying, observing wildlife, it is a meditation. Yeah, because you've got to be silent and I take it, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I take it that a lot of these other thoughts are not present at that time and you're present in that moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're almost just irrelevant. You know how intrusive thoughts come and go, but when you've actually got something to focus on, it's they do actually go. They don't just come and stick around and go, hey, and just poke you until you act on them. So, yeah, it was. It was a spiritual experience as well, and I I do classify myself as a very spiritual person and it's out in nature that I have that spiritual language and I can just settle. You know it just, it just feels right.
Speaker 3:It's very hard to put into words and I feel like the english language really has the capacity to describe what nature really is.
Speaker 1:I certainly don't have the capacity to, but it's just when you know something's right and you know you feel good day, you just want more of it, and it's it's just that that kept me going, really yeah, was there a definitive point I know you mentioned about being on the bridge when you realized, you know, wild was for you, but was there a point when you realized that this extended time periods in nature helped you? Or you realized, hang on, while I'm, you know, while I'm doing this, I'm not feeling this, I'm able to focus, I'm able to, you know, be a better self, better self, better self for yourself, not for anyone else.
Speaker 3:I think yeah, you know it was I don't consciously remember now like clocking or this is a really good. I really like I knew I liked filming nature, I knew I really loved learning, but that bridge moment where I actually turned the camera on myself and started to talk about mental health in the spirit of helping others and setting myself free, that really was the the big moment. And it's not like everything radically changed and my life improved and the light came on and I was better, but it, yeah, that was really the key moment for me and that decision and just sort of the affirmation of what's been going on around me since then, as slow or as fast as it has been, it's, it can only have been the right thing did you find it easier to talk to the camera there other than to someone?
Speaker 3:much easier. Yeah, yeah, talking to the camera, it was quite. It came quite naturally to me. I think it could be a little bit of a talker, but also just it didn't have anything to say back. It's kind of like an animal again, I guess, in a sense of like it just holds the space and I that that footage didn't need to go anywhere. In fact, like the conversations I had with the camera about how I was feeling, never ended up making those three films. They are on YouTube, you know, on those those first 2016 hikes.
Speaker 3:But yeah it it. It started to set me free because I began to process and I realized that it was a powerful thing for me to be able to do, because, also, it was just for me initially, in a sense of like I knew I wanted to help people. I knew that was. That was the moment where, if I talk, I can support other people who are in the darkness and bring this into the light. But initially it was like just about processing and getting to grips with what I was experiencing and how that sort of changed and ebbed and flowed like the tides when I was on the trail. You know the ups and downs and thus my understanding started to grow and deepen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wonder because I used to well, seven years, I used to really struggle on this podcast at the start and speaking to a microphone. But speaking to people when I found, when I started doing a few of the public talking, standing up in front of a crowd didn't really bother me and I wonder if that's because of the 20 years on the doors and portraying something else. Can I ask you at the moment, do you practice any sort of self-care routines which you would stick by or which you sort of? If you don't practice, do you notice and I'm asking that because we had Ed Stafford on recently and he was saying about his meditations, you know, know, we can sort of put these to one side for me because we're too busy. I just, I'll do that, I'll put that off today, but then things build up and you have to go back and all right. So if you, hopefully you do after that long-winded question no, I do.
Speaker 3:I would say they're not. I'm not particularly like set on them, but they're things that I I I lack when I don't have them. So I play an instrument called the handpan, hmm, which is kind of like a UFO shaped piece of metal that sits in your lap. It's a very harmonic percussion instrument and that allows me to turn my emotions into sound and that's something that, particularly when I'm feeling big emotions, I can process and work them through my body when I can't find the words to express them or I don't have anybody around me because I live a very nomadic lifestyle in a van and all over the place. But then, additionally, physical exercise by far is the thing for me. You know, I need to be outside, I need to be somewhere wild, I need to be able to step into a lake or feel the rain on my face and have that like tactile engagement, and I suppose that's probably the most set thing. That's a daily occurrence, because I just literally I'm like a caged animal if I can't get out and I can't move and I can't get my heart rate up and I can't see a horizon. And that's partly why I choose to stay living in a very leaky van because it enables me to have the freedom, but then I think also just probably something that doesn't involve physical movement and traveling.
Speaker 3:It's just I practice gratitude. You know, I do eat a plant-based diet and one of the things I love the most about that, beyond the colors, is just I love seeing where things come from and I love thinking about on my travels when I see like oranges and lemons and avocados and different things growing and then that's landed up on my plate here and practicing the gratitude for the journey that I know that these things have been on Like my coffee beans. When I grind them in the morning I always have a, a process of like I'm really grateful for the plants and the sunlight and the people who've harvested these and the process of it getting from there to here, and that I just think you can't have joy without gratitude because I could just make that coffee, glug it down and crack on with my day. But it's just those little mindful moments of like, seeing the chain of life that I am slotting into in that tiny moment that really just helps remind me that I'm absolutely tiny and yet so significant all at once.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you make a good point about being mindful about doing these things, because you talk to people about what they're eating or what they're drinking and it's just like a cup of coffee in the morning. You just make it drink it. Did I drink that cup of coffee? Did I have that cup of coffee? Did I have that cup of coffee? Well, what was the point if you didn't think about it? Yeah, so can I ask? Oh, I've stuck with Pennell. Can I ask and you don't have to answer if you don't want what's your relationship with food like now?
Speaker 3:I'd say it's vibrant.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:It's complicated, I would say I will probably. I don't want to paintbrush myself, but maybe I just will in this moment. I think I will always have slightly disordered eating, but I've come to understand disordered for me is ordered, because I've created order in the chaos and a lot of people don't understand how I eat and why I choose to eat the way that I eat. But it's purely the way that I have adapted to what essentially is a very addictive tendency. So there's a lot of foods that are black and white, like no, I'm not eating that, I don't touch that because I can't risk it. So I've never drunk a drop of alcohol in my life, for example, because I know that that would have spiraled if I had. So I just put a hard line on that straight away. And there's other foods, there's foods that are like that. But I would say it's that practice of gratitude and choosing to have a plant-based diet that really keeps me very grounded, and it's it's a simple diet. You know, I I just take so much joy in like making a really colorful salad and, you know, on the day that I might choose to eat a little bit of cheese, it's like just really like taking the moment to recognize where that's come from and process. So it's a pretty healthy diet, which I think is why, like some people just can't get their head around it, but it comes with great joy for me.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I'm wary, there's a lot of things I'm wary of, but I think also traveling. I travel a huge amount in and out of the country and that means that you sometimes don't get the preparation time that you might need for food for somebody like me. So I find, like being on the trail with my like very long hikes you know where I need to resupply. It's still something I'm working on. You know an example last year I was on a trail called Padjallantaleden, long name in the north of Sweden, the Arctic Circle, and I had to resupply and there was this one kiosk and you couldn't go into the kiosk. You had to stand outside and sort of look into the shop and it was bucketing biblical rain. It was horrendous weather and there was a queue behind me and it was such an awful, stressful moment for me because basically I had to decide my next five days worth of food there and then, with people watching and time pressure whilst trying to do the maths, did I have enough money and I just like had a full-on meltdown because, like that's one of those moments where, like everything feels unsafe, food wise, I managed to do it in the end.
Speaker 3:I sort of went away and made a list and sort of went back like this is what I need, and so I'm constantly like trying to figure out processes where I find weaknesses. Another thing is like when I arrive in a city or something and I have, you know, a trip the next day, and it's like right, what can I make for the trip? And so I literally have a list on like my google keep of, like foods that I feel like I can buy, because when I just go into a shop, all I see is like danger rather than things that could work for me. So it's like right, I know you're trying not to buy avos because of the water, but but here, get an Avo, get a roll, make yourself a thing that's going to be a good, wholesome, fit, get some protein, you know, with some tofu, and I just know what's safe and what works and I try not to overthink it.
Speaker 3:And yet, on the other hand, I absolutely love trying coffees from around the world. So, you know, I've always tried different coffees. So it's all over the place, but it works you know.
Speaker 1:I mean you say it's all over the place, but do you think that's? It's because you, you are, you have an awareness of the way that food can affect you, so you have to make them good choices. Whereas I think I'm not going on a rant, seb, I think a lot of people aren't aware that the relationship food can have to one's physical health and mental health. Yeah, you know, we see these kids banging energy drinks down and then wondering why they're ranting and carrying on and scrapping with each other and having meltdowns. So I mean that's got to be an awareness, hasn't it? And then it's, I think, because, yeah, I'm very picky with my food. It would be called, but then is that just because of the amount of shit that's there? Do you the amount of shit that's there, do you know? I mean there's, so it's.
Speaker 3:It is an awareness and it's a self-awareness and self-care I'd say well, exactly, and you're making empowered choices and not necessarily going for the trend and the marketing and where the money is for big companies. You know, and that's what I mean. It's just like that functioning, like what is healthy eating, what is disordered eating, what is? You know, what is all of this stuff? They're very subjective terms. So, you know, for me and the people around me, they know my relationship with food and it's a very supportive environment that I'm in, and then when I travel, I just have my ways of coping with it. But it doesn't make it right or wrong. What works for me might not work for you, and vice versa, you know. So we all have our things and that's okay.
Speaker 1:It's okay again to be different. So, with projects that you have done recently or maybe doing in the future, do you choose them through ambition, through what you know is going to be good for you, what's going to be good for your mental health, what's you know? Obviously you need to make money as well. At some point you need to support yourself, you need to put fuel in the van, et cetera. What's your sort of main main choices, main sort of list yeah, so definitely what I'm going to enjoy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and enjoy does come with type 2 fun, like what's going to be a challenge, but I know I'll get something from, because that makes for good watching. I have tried to do trails in the past where I've just not really wanted to be there and that's been quite a lengthy edit. Let's just put it that way like god, you can't put that in the film, you know. But so there is that, but it's. It is like what would make a good story and there's a it's a very difficult line that I find myself dancing because, you know being prevalent on the internet, but particularly YouTube.
Speaker 3:You know you sort of have to look at, right, what's trending right now. What do people want to watch? You know, obviously, like YouTube, shorts and stuff is really coming up. People want to see short things and yet it's hilarious because my most watched things are like two hours plus and I'm like bucking the trends in a lot of ways. But yet, on the other hand, you know you've got these big trails that people want to see, because that's what people are going to do, do and that's what they, you know, type into youtube.
Speaker 3:So it's like, do I go and do those and add to the crowds, or do I try and, like, highlight the beauty of more wild, remote places, but then, like, how do I then promote and ensure that that's responsible travel that people then engage with, because I do hold a big level of responsibility for, like, highlighting beautiful places on the planet? So it's you catch me at a time of question marking myself, quite frankly, because I'm figuring this out. You know, there's no rule book or or guidebook for how to do this and I just, I just want to be a good person, but yeah, like it does need to be somewhere that interests me, because otherwise it's quite I'm not very good at. I'll do something I'm not interested yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 1:I'll be honest it's. It's an ongoing process. Keep questioning yourself unless you've got something. This is why I'm sort of moving out of the mountain world, I think, because I'm very conscious of how many miles I'm driving and why am I doing it? Why am I doing it to validate myself against other people when I don't need to be?
Speaker 3:That's a big question, isn't it? It's like why do we do extreme sports, you know? Why do we have to climb the mountain? Like, for me, it's like I struggle to do anything if I don't film it. And then I'm like well, why am I saying no to life opportunities? Because I don't think I can film it the way I want to film it when that's still a life opportunity and there's still something I'll become experienced.
Speaker 3:So I was just recently in Norway. As you know, I was doing a polar training course to train me up for a polar expedition and I part of that was to learn to fiddley faff with my camera gear in extreme minus temperatures and snow and mitts and all that jazz. But it wasn't meant to be a work trip. It was meant to be an abbey trip, because this is something I've dreamt of doing ever since I was very small. And yet I found myself feeling like I really need to try and get this shot and I need to do this.
Speaker 3:And then and it's just like the pure process of like oh, I've turned into work Abby, but then I like work Abby. So how does that work? And it's just this mishmashing when you bring your passion into your career of like there are no clear lines and it does change a lot, but I think that's what makes like an entrepreneurial mind. Just that is that you are fluid and constantly evolving, and just because you move away from something now doesn't mean you won't come back renewed and refreshed with a slightly different perspective in the future.
Speaker 1:I think if anyone knows me, they know how bad I'm at business. I'm awful, absolutely. I keep doing, I keep doing, I keep doing things and to take it, yeah, we'll just go out and enjoy it and you're like, actually that's cost me a fortune. So, yeah, I'm not great at that. So where we're looking at in the future and what we're planning, it sounds exciting well, I turned 30 in two years.
Speaker 3:I'll tell you something that's become a thing in two years.
Speaker 3:I'm like, yeah, well, a year and a half, I've got got walking boots older than you, abby but it is a milestone in life and I'm a little bit like right, what do I want to achieve before I'm 30? But quite frankly, I am a little bit I don't really know Like we lost our house last year and I've moved full time into my van now, so I'm sort of just, as I say, like gallivanting around quite merrily and I had a major surgery also last year gender affirming surgery and I've come out to the world as a trans, non-binary person. I'm sort of yet to do that officially on my YouTube channel Don't think I will, because when I did that on Instagram, I lost a huge percentage of my following.
Speaker 3:Oh, really it's taken a while to build it back up again. Wow, yes, it's a frightening world. So, and then, like with Wild, wild is just going from strength to strength. Wild is almost run by the community, just by people showing up for each other. So, yes, the YouTube channel is one thing. My Patreon platform is another. The talks that I give is another. The walks and events that I do is another. I've got my store as well, but it's just ticking along really, really nicely.
Speaker 3:So I feel like I have breathing space right now and I am just sort of pondering, okay, where would I like to go? What stories can I tell? You know, I've been trying to work on my fear of water for the last couple of years, but getting into scuba diving, then I had a diving accident in November 2023, which I nearly lost my life in the south of Italy. Thus my fear of water has tripled. Now I'm working with the brands to sort of get back into the water and sort of tell that story and bring in the story of marine debris alongside. And you know what can we do to raise awareness about UK shoreline. So there's a few things like that which are not so far and not so high and not so wild and yet give me a great sense of purpose.
Speaker 3:So I can't give you a clear answer of like you know's next, but I think I'm just I'm just trying to like find my vibe and find my voice in the life that I've finally allowed myself to truly step into.
Speaker 3:I'm living what I feel like is quite on the edge of society at the moment in a lot of senses, and I'm actually okay with that, and I'm just trying to find the balance between like being bitter for a lot of things, like how hard it is to rent, as a self-employed dog owner, young person, but also like celebrating the beauty of what our world has to offer. And how that translates for wild we'll just see. But there will be many more hikes on the project, you know on the cards, and I've fallen in love with the arctic, so I'm probably just gonna shit me on off there, quite frankly. But yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful world that I want to get out and explore and I want to share with people, tell stories and just try and make a difference in a better place can I ask you, when you've sort of opened to world about being trans non-binary, how has that affected your mindset?
Speaker 1:because I'll be honest, when I first started talking about having PTSD, I was shitting myself, you know, and it's one of them, except that I don't go around and say I had PTSD, I'll always have PTSD and I suppose this has always been part of you. And then it's, and it wasn't probably because of the timing of it. Then it wasn't that bad, but it obviously because the mental health was coming to the fore or being talked about. But trans non-binary it's yeah, like you say, you're on the edge, aren't you? And when you, when you do talk about things like that, how did? How was that for your own mindset?
Speaker 3:it's a really good question. I think publicly the response was generally positive, but I had some horrendous hate things coming through and, as I say, I lost a huge amount of my following. And it's such a fine line because my social media in particular is not just like my social media, it's wild social media. So when you lose personal following, you therefore lose business following, and that's that can translate to other things in the future. So that was hard, but I think the hardest part of navigating it is it's just in my personal life, like just the other day I was in london stansted airport and I got refused access into the women's toilet. I couldn't get into the disabled inclusive toilet because I didn't have a special key and I wasn't allowed in the men's because there was another cleaner who said I couldn't go into there. So because, like, these two people were perceiving me as something different, so it was just well I couldn't use the toilet then. And then it's just constantly being people using the wrong pronouns and I understand it's very difficult, particularly for people that have known me for a long time. Like Abby is typically a female name, but it's really hard when those around me sort of supported me through a major life changing operation and almost just slipped into the past and just business as usual. And then you're constantly trying to find your voice, to be like OK, I've been misgendered I hope you don't mind me just reminding you, but I am using the pronouns they then and it's like how many times can you do that? How many times can you do that? And it's so uncomfortable and finding the courage to like challenge people because there's nothing else that really we go through in life, where we really ask people to change the way they're doing something and thinking. And I've lost friends over it and I've, as much as I found my voice and I'm stronger than ever, I also feel really weak and vulnerable because it's it is an isolating and hard place to be because, particularly sitting in the non-binary camp, people just don't understand what that means and they don't necessarily have to understand. I'm not out to like change anybody's way of thinking, but I think when somebody does try to get my pronouns like it's life-giving, it literally is like somebody has seen me for who I am and it just it's just such a euphoric feeling. So I would say I'm further along in my personal life than I am online with sort of just living in this sphere, but it does make me sort of question the future, because I feel very vulnerable online to what people have to say and I do get horrible things coming into my inbox and it can be quite hard, but on the other hand, I think, just like a lot of life, you know you have, you see what you choose to look at, and I'm really trying to see and look at the things that just bring people together, because this isn't the point in me even sharing publicly that I identify as a trans, non-binary person. It's not about me and this really is not meant to be about me, because I don't care what people publicly know.
Speaker 3:It's about giving people the permission and the safe pace to also acknowledge who they are, not just in a sense of gender but in terms of I'm a creative person and I'm not living now. Or I'm an adventurous person and I want to go travel. You know it's just like there's so much suppression. An adventurous person and I want to go travel. You know it's just like there's so much depression. And I think that's what me speaking out about this is about is about helping to just release the pressure plug that we as a society are under to try and keep us in a box whatever box that is, you know, because we're human beings you can't grasp what a human being is because we're such fascinating, awe-insp, inspiring individuals, and it's just about time people lived that out like unapologetically, like it's 2025, you know. So that's what it's about for me yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 1:I think you've hit the nail on the head about the individuals in it and it's. I see so many people and I don't want to. I don't want to start judging people, but I think when you've been through things like yourself been through myself, seb and you've got experience and you can see traits in people, but they're still living under that ceiling and being forced into something rather than you know, stepping around it and growing. Basically, and all the admiration in the world to you, I'll be to be fair, because it must have been massively brave. So big up for that. Right, big, big, massive question. Top tips for people to look after their mental well-being.
Speaker 3:Anything, it can be anything top tips for looking after your mental well-being. And actually I have to say, get outside, you know, get into a natural environment, whatever that looks like for you, put the screen away, put the earbuds away if possible, or at least put the earbuds in, but just don't have something playing and just tap into your senses, all of your senses, just breathing as deep as you possibly can and just having that moment for yourself or at least sharing that with a loved one and both of you. Taking the time, I think, is a very, a very profound thing that we can do on the way to work, on the way to school, like wherever we're going, if there's a tree, just taking that moment to be present with the small and the big that surround us. But then I'd also translate that into just taking the time to see, like really see what's around us. You know I'm saying oranges because I have a big crate of oranges that I just brought today which I'm very excited about.
Speaker 3:But you know, when you've got that orange, like think about that thing from nature, where has that come from? And just give yourself that time because it it really does help you zoom out of your life. And you know it's not even about putting things in perspective, but it's just zooming out and taking that time to be slightly more mindful. But I would would also say you know, talk to people, connect with people who are doing what you're passionate about. I think it's really, really important that we have people who can push us forwards and can pull us forwards. So you know, trying to find those people as well, and just be patient with yourself. It's a process. I'm still in it, you're still in it. Like life is a process and it's just trusting that process. You know there's no destination, but enjoying what there is along the ride yep, totally agree um it's a constant learning experience for me it's a bit like that gratitude, isn't it?
Speaker 2:because you mentioned diving. I mean, I find when, when you do go diving and I do go diving a bit, a bit, or used to do more than I do now I always find you you do not have a choice rather than zoom into where you are, because it's it's such a immersive environment and it really zones you out and in at the same time and and you're kind of on your own and you really get the time to think about things I totally agree.
Speaker 3:I can say, I've never breathed better than I have underwater, because it's like you just slow everything down yeah, yeah, I've not tried diving yet.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure about that. It's great. I don't know if it's for me, I'll be. I think we'll, uh, I think we'll wrap it up there and what we'll do is we'll say thank you very much. I would actually say, at some point we need to hook up for a walk or a hike. I'd love that. That'd be great. Yeah, at some point. I'm in scotland in a couple of weeks, so I'll see if you're still about.
Speaker 3:Are you?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, do.
Speaker 1:See if you're still about and see if we can catch up. Seb, thank you for your technical miracles. Again, no thanks to Abi for For your yeah for waiting for us. That's brilliant.
Speaker 3:I wasn't going to go anyway.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh, you were. Yeah, I'll be bound. Thank you very much. We will add the website, etc. And the youtube channel to the podcast information. Yeah, thanks again. Thanks for your time, thank you thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:It's been a good conversation.
Speaker 1:Appreciate it thank you, take care and if you would like to support us and help us keep the podcast going, then you can go to buyys a Coffee or you can click that on our website, whitefoxtalkingcom, and look for the little cup. Thank you.
