White Fox Talking
Talk About Mental Health & Well-Being… Why Not? Mark ‘Charlie’ Valentine suffered life changing mental illness, before beginning a journey to recovery and wellness; the darkness of PTSD transformed by the light atop mountains and beyond. Mark is now joining forces with Seb Budniak, to make up the ‘White Fox Talking’ team. Through a series of Podcasts and Vlogs, ‘White Fox Talking’ will be bringing you a variety of guests, topics, and inspirational stories relating to improving mental well-being. Find your way back to you! Expect conversation, information, serious discussion and a healthy dose of Yorkshire humour!
White Fox Talking
E74: Breaking the Silence - Kaylee Thompson's Courageous Justice Journey
Send White Fox Talking a Message
Imagine carrying a traumatic secret from age four until adulthood, then finding the strength not only to seek justice but to transform your experience into advocacy for others. This is Kaylee Thompson's remarkable story.
Thirty years after experiencing sexual assault as a toddler, Kaylee made the life-changing decision to report her abuser to police. Despite the challenges of a historic case with limited physical evidence, she persevered through an 18-month investigation that culminated in a successful conviction. Most powerfully, she chose to waive her legal anonymity, declaring: "I don't need my name hiding because that happened to me, and it's him that should feel ashamed."
Kaylee's journey illuminates the complex reality of childhood trauma - from teenage drinking to escape painful memories, to the triggers of seeing her own young children at the same age she was abused. Yet her story isn't defined by victimhood but by resilience and action. Today, she works with West Yorkshire Survivor Leaders, helping steer a £250,000 program that empowers other survivors to become agents of change. Their initiatives include a skills academy that equips women to advocate for systemic improvements in how institutions respond to sexual violence.
Through her advocacy, Kaylee challenges damaging terminology like "vulnerable victims" and champions a perspective where survivors lead conversations about reform. She's now developing a podcast platform where others can share their stories, building a community of strength and hope. Her message resonates with clarity: regardless of when abuse occurred, your voice deserves to be heard, and healing isn't just possible - it can become a catalyst for helping others find their own path to justice and recovery.
Have you experienced sexual violence and want to connect with advocacy resources? Reach out through info@whitefoxtalking.com, and we'll connect you with Kaylee's network of survivor support.
Hello and welcome to the White Fox Talking Podcast. I'm Mark Charlie-Valentine, and, as ever, seb is at the side of me. Hello Seb, hello Charlie-Mark-Valentine. It is a confusion with these names, isn't it? But I was a talking the other day. I've known them 20 years. I didn't know my first name was Mark. I thought it was Charlie. Well, that always happens. Yeah, I know, but that's my name. That was given to me as a young person, my nickname, and I liked it because it was given through love. So you kept it, yeah.
Speaker 2:Good.
Speaker 1:Well, everyone else kept it. So it worked well when we were on the doors, didn't it? How are you? I'm good, thank you, very relaxed after the little trip we had on the weekend. Yeah, saturday, how good was that. It was nice.
Speaker 1:Is this a self-promotion? Yes, yes, my first public Nature therapy, nature therapy session. Yeah, with Full Circle Nature Therapy there's a story with the name as well, you know, because it's Full Circle when I was a kid, out, playing, being in touch with nature, and then, through adulthood, you lose it and then, obviously, with my PTSD and back in touch with nature, healing myself and now hopefully passing stress relief to other people. So you've gone full circle, full circle and stood in dog shit. Yes, well, obviously I would much rather out of anyone that was there, it's best be me that gets so close to nature that it's all in the treads of my shoes. Yeah, which made it fun when I was doing the senses meditation. You know, take a deep breath in through your nose. Oh, that's it. Yeah, that's pungent, but anyway, did you find it enjoyable? And bear in mind that you sat beside me when I've got a pen.
Speaker 2:I did actually enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'll be quite honest with you. Yeah, it was nice, and I think the big revelation is that you went to sleep afterwards, didn't you Went to sleep afterwards, didn't you had a little bit of. It's not like you, is it During the day? During the day, I thought you hung upside down like a bat. I'll be honest, because you don't often. You're usually doing something, aren't you? No, anyway, who's here with us? Let's get by that, because we're on to a serious subject. So we'd like to welcome Kayleigh Thompson to the podcast by Energy Impact. Hi, hello, kayla, are you okay? Yeah, is this your first podcast recording? It is my first podcast. Excellent, well, we are honoured. Would you like to give the listeners a brief introduction? I mean, you can say what we're talking about, if you want, and then, or a little bit of your background, but only a couple of minutes, if that, and then we'll get on with it.
Speaker 2:So I'm Kayleigh Thompson, I'm from west yorkshire, I have three children, three boys, and I recently.
Speaker 2:What made me come on this podcast was I recently went to the police and reported some historic sexual violence and I was successful in court and the man was sent to prison for two years.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's what led me to come on this podcast. I kind of want to share my story really because I feel like a lot of people maybe don't report because they're afraid that because it was like 30 years ago, 20 years ago, that people won't listen to them and there's a lot of negativity around the police. I had a really, really good experience with the police, apart from the amount of time it took, but that's just the nature of the system at the moment. So, yeah, just encouraging people really to, if there is something that you want to report historically that you know you can do that and you will be listened to. Maybe people won't be successful like I was in court, but it did help me kind of close the book on something that had been kind of in the back of my mind for my whole life Well, since I was four, really since it happened.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Wow, so I didn't know it was when you was four. I mean that's, I mean it's still toddler age, isn't it really?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Just about.
Speaker 1:So what can I ask? Well, you know it's the sexual abuse we're talking about. So it is a sensitive story Excuse me, sensitive story, I think and to be handled in the right way. I'm so good, it's come to a good end and that chapter's closed, for you so pleased for that, and for you to come out and start talking about that, although I suppose it was in the press, was it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but also while it was in the press, I decided to let them use my name as well.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:When you with cases like that, you get a lifetime anonymity.
Speaker 1:Well, don't ask me, Go on Seb.
Speaker 2:But I signed forms with two with Leeds Live and the Evening Post because I decided that I wanted to put my name out because I feel like well, one I also shared it on social media as well was because I feel like there's a lot of shame around. When you're sexually abused, you automatically feel shame like it's your fault, and I really wanted to lessen that shame by speaking out and saying I don't, I don't need my name hiding, because that happened to me and it's him that should feel ashamed. So, yeah, I did put my name out there in in all the papers that well, it's a good job because you're on a podcast now.
Speaker 1:Yeah so, but yeah, a very brave, a very sort of brave decision, I suppose or did you think it was brave at the time? Or just that determination to, like you say you wanted to remove that stigma, I wanted to remove the stigma.
Speaker 2:But also I thought how can I encourage other people to come forward if I'm still hiding my name? Like there's some shame, like happened to me. But I didn't let him put my name in because I don't want people knowing it was me, whereas I'm actually not bothered about people knowing it was me.
Speaker 1:What stage of the process did you decide to give up your anonymity?
Speaker 2:When I got contacted the day of court the day he was sentenced I had two people phone me and they they basically said, oh, you know your name, are we okay to put this story out there? But they said, don't worry, your name won't be in it. And I was like, put my name in it, right? And they said, oh no, you get lifetime anonymity and, as I said, I don't really need that like. So I had to sign a form, yeah, but they said that very rarely happens that people want their name in there.
Speaker 2:But there was like really happy about it and really supportive and they were like absolutely fantastic, they were chuffed. But yeah, I was like why should my name not be in it? I understand that I'm protected and that's good, that women do have that protection if that's what they want. But I was like I want people to know it was me and I want people to be able to come and speak to me about it. If they want to, or if they've been through something similar and they want to come and speak to me about that, then I need my name to be in there to let people know that it was me.
Speaker 1:Right. So I suppose we could say at this point you are a trained counsellor and you've had therapy, yeah To to become a trained counsellor, and which is why you feel that you're and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth you feel that you're also a survivor, that you're in a position to speak to other people which means that you've given up your God I'm going to say it again, I've trapped myself there that you've given up your anonymity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is that about? Would that sound about, right? Yeah, perfect. Yeah, does that is that about? Would that sound about right? Yeah, yeah, perfect. I'm glad I got that out of the way. So, in your opinion, this stigma before we start talking about the case and going through that and what you want to do in the future, where do you think the stigma comes from?
Speaker 2:when I think when you well, and probably any sexual, sexual violence. But I feel like you kind of feel like it was maybe in some way your fault that this happened to you, because you don't expect it, and I think that's I've. I am a part of West Yorkshire survivor leader group, so that's with another group of ladies who've also experienced sexual violence and we've we all feel that's. One thing we all have in common is that we've all felt deeply shamed at some point about what we went through. I've never really explored exactly where that comes from. I just I suppose with me because I was a young girl and I kept it a secret for so long, then I don't know. You kind of just don't want anybody to know, because you think they're going to know what happened to me and it's awful. And then you do think in some way was it my fault, that kind of like that. Why me?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I don't feel shame anymore, though at all. Yeah, what I'm sort of trying to think about.
Speaker 1:There was, is it your personal experience? And at four years old, I mean, you know what I mean? It's pretty well, it's horrendous at any age, isn't it? But at four years old, and then, even from four years old, you've not spoken about it, because, but one, what's formed the idea that you shouldn't talk about it? And then two, as it goes on, and you're hearing things from society, I suppose did that increase the shame or the feeling of shame?
Speaker 2:I think at four I wouldn't have understood what happened. I wouldn't have understood, maybe, that that was wrong. I mean I kind of did, because he punched me to the face and I had a suspected broken cheekbone, so I did. Obviously I knew that, I knew, I knew that was wrong, but I feel like I just hid what helped, what else had happened in them, because nobody asked me, I didn't, I didn't disclose it and then, as as you get older and you start hearing about like sex and stuff like that, you start start realising wait, a minute, something sexual happened to me when I was four and I didn't tell anybody about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I suppose at four there's not a comprehension of it being a sexual offence.
Speaker 2:anyway, however, I did know it was wrong, because I did push it. I fought him off, which is why he hit me. So, yes, it's a really difficult one. I did, I knew it was well. I didn't necessarily know it was wrong, but I knew it was hurting, so that's why I pushed him away. I knew it was wrong to be hurting. I must have known that.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you at that time do you know how old this person was?
Speaker 2:17.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean a four-year-old. You're trying to fight a 17-year-old male. Did you know him?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't remember anything beforehand. So I was at my cousin's house and my mum had gone out and he was having a party, so I think there were quite a few people there, but I don't remember the party. I don't remember any of this. The first thing I remember is him coming into the bedroom, is me being in the bedroom, stood up with him. I don't remember anything before then, but I've always known who he was, which was something that was challenged in court, because they said if I don't remember beforehand, how do I know it was him? Because, also, I can't give a description of him, then I can't sit here now and tell you this is exactly what it looked like at the time it happened. However, this is where the investigation, this is where the police are like.
Speaker 2:Absolutely fantastic is that I told everybody who hit me. So I told my mum the next day, I told the hospital, I told the police and they said it were his word against mine and closed the case. And then my whole life, whenever this was spoken about, I always said it was him that hit me. It was Tom Brown, and I've always said that name, which is what kind of like helped me in court. Is that? Yes, I don't remember exactly what he looked like at the time because it was 31 years ago. However, I told everybody the next day exactly what. I named him straight away to my mum, because what happened was I came downstairs the next day and my mum was like my auntie, sorry, was like what's happened to your eye? And I said Tom Brown did it. And then I got taken to hospital. Then my mum came and I said Tom Brown did it. So I always named him. So I must have known who he was. I must have, he must have been there at the party and I must have known his name.
Speaker 1:However, I just don't remember that bloody hell, that's all I can say. A minute it's it's like wow. But I mean, you know, I suppose, with the court and it's a difficult one. I suppose I might have watched a few court cases might have said and it's a difficult one for the court because they can't, just they've got to go on the evidence, but you've got someone who's a defence side, someone who's a prosecution, and the defence are just going to try and shoot holes in your process. But the evidence for is coming from a four-year-old, years ago. Not not not years and years, sorry, but a long time ago. And then, but what's happening there? When you start going into these psychology books and trauma books, you're blanking things out of your brain anyway. But at four years old, you know, I've blanked things out my brain from my incident when I was, when I was 30. Yeah, but you were four years old. So you've still not got that, you've still not formed a proper brain have you no.
Speaker 1:And to have that recollection? Oh bloody hell. So can I just ask you then, how was the? I'll tell you what. Let's go in order. Let's do it in order, because I want to ask you about this court, and I think that's what puts a lot of people off in it. So you said the police. So we've come to the west west yorkshire survivor leaders, which is the process there that got you to report?
Speaker 2:yeah, so it was. I joined up as a survivor leader and then I was a bit anxious, on the phone to the guy and I said, oh, I've got no proof. This happened to me. I've never been to the police. And he said we don't need.
Speaker 2:It was such a nice, a nice gentleman, bob. And he said we don't need proof that you've been abused. He said we just, we listen to you, we believe you. And then he said have you ever thought about going to police? And I were like no, it were like nearly 30 years ago. And he said you do know you can go to the police, like you can report historic sexual abuse. And I was like oh.
Speaker 2:And then I spoke to one of my best friends about it and she said she was like, if, if you do it, would it, would it help you? And I was like well, I think it would. And our thoughts at the time I'll be honest, mine and shenaid's thoughts at the time was even if he gets arrested and he goes for questioning and they say there's not really enough evidence and they don't take it forward, he's going to have to explain to his family and his friends why he was arrested. And if he still says oh, this girl, this woman, said this about me. There'll always be doubts with people.
Speaker 2:Did he do it? And he did do it? So I was thinking and I also wanted him to know that I remembered, because he started to come up on my friends in common on Facebook. He started hanging about with a lad that I used to go to school with. He started going out with a girl that I used to go to school with. He started going out with a girl that I used to go to school with. So he's coming up in my friends income and I know he's out in the area where I live. I don't go out really, but my luck is, the odd night that I do go out I'd end up bumping into him. It just was starting to make me feel a little bit ill mentally and I thought I need to do something about this. So, yeah, that's why I made the report.
Speaker 1:Did you ever bump into him since that? Yeah, so.
Speaker 2:I saw him when I was 16. I worked behind a bar glass collecting at a working men's club and there was a function on and it was a football presentation thing, and I was behind the bar and he walked up to the bar and straight away and this is what I mean about me not being able to describe him before straight away I went that's Tom Brown. And then he shouted at somebody at the at the bar and he went oh no, somebody at the bar turned around to him and went you're right, tom, what do you want? I'll buy it. And I just I knew straight and I went out of the way and I went down to the other end of the bar. But I knew straight, straight away, the moment I saw him have you read working the tiger?
Speaker 1:no, that's a good book to read. I I'll tell Peter Levine, yeah, it's all about this, because your brain will block things out and then, like you say, you've seen him and he'll have changed what? From being 17 to 12 years older. So he's a man now. So he'll have changed facially and physically, but you've recognised it straight away. Yeah, I don't know. There's so much in it about society and what goes on. So, Survivor Leaders, are you working for them now?
Speaker 2:you said yeah, so we myself and five other ladies we steer a £250,000 lottery fund which is to support and equip and enable survivors of sexual violence to lead the change in how people and organisations respond to sexual violence. So at the moment we've just launched a skills academy. So we've got we had 40 ladies come to our open evening and we are upskilling them. They're on doing like courses and what we're hoping is that these ladies all form groups throughout West Yorkshire in doing whatever it is they want to do. So whether that's to change the court systems, whether that's to talk about policing, and we're hoping, by forming these groups, that we'll be able to get some activism going. People will want to change, basically, how we respond to violence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see why. You've just spoken about it quite passionately, about working with these. I suppose these are the catalysts that have brought a man to justice.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I mean it still is. You, yeah, yeah, but I mean it still is. You know, what was it like, that one talking to the police? Because I think I don't know the figures but it's tiny, isn't it? The percentage of reports, or I suppose there's a percentage of reports of incidents, that one that get reported. It's a tiny percentage because of this thing that notes can happen. And then there's this, I suppose, cps, yeah, and then there's this, I suppose, yeah, and then there's, yes, court, if it goes to cps, it's got, they've got to have about 60, 70 chance of prosecution, successful prosecution. And then there's also, I suppose, is that thing of facing the incident again. Yeah, so, but you've, you've gone through that, you've done that, and what was it like talking to the police, because that must have been a big step, and recounting it and recalling it. What was that like for yourself?
Speaker 2:So first I phoned the police and I reported it, and then I had to go down and do an interview in the police station. So that was obviously much more in detail. I think that was an hour and 20 minutes that was, and there's quite a large time between each one. Everything just takes time. Then, once you do your interview at the police station, it was then like a year and a half before I heard it, oh really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got the odd. The police officer changed twice and I got the odd call just to say we're interviewing him next week and just the odd bit. But there were not much really. And then I got a call to say that it were going to CPS and that that would take time. And then I got a call to say CPS were taking it to court and I'd get a letter. And this was 18 months ago and I got a letter saying that it was going to court on the 31st of April 2025. But I'd got that letter in 2023, like the back end. So I had ages to wait until it went to court.
Speaker 1:So did they go and arrest him, or did they just ask him to go and interview him.
Speaker 2:He was in prison for putting his ex-wife in a coma, actually, so they went to the cells but I was told that he was really not very nice to the police officer and obviously he denied it and my police officer actually, and obviously he denied it and my police officer actually reenacted that in court.
Speaker 2:I wasn't in court, but this is what I've been told by people. That was in court for me but the police officer reenacted that because I don't know why my barrister wanted that, maybe just to show his behavior. But it was like swearing at the police officer and going this got fucking dealt with years ago and the police dropped it. You can like swearing at the police officer and they're going this got fucking dealt with years ago and the police dropped it. You can't, you can't bring this up again. But how they got the police got round. That was, he did get asked 30 years ago if he punched me in the face with my suspected cheekbone and he said no, but they'd never asked him about the sexual abuse because I'd not disclosed it. So how they got? But you can't if someone, if something's already been dropped, they've already investigated it and it's been dropped to the car.
Speaker 1:Unless new evidence comes up or something. I believe yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's how they were able to re-question it.
Speaker 1:Oh right because they'd not been questioned on that originally.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, so the police have been great with you. Basically, they sound a bit. Although it sounds like the sound, the time delay through courts is not ideal. I suppose that's a stressor.
Speaker 2:It's not because you're kind of you're waiting for it and you're dreading it. Honestly, when it got to like March, I was like, oh my God, it's like it's nearly a year and I was. I was really really dreading it. But I'm quite good, I run, I go to the gym. I'm so busy I try not to think about stuff what's bothering me. So I kind of tried not to think about it, but then, obviously, then the day came and it was like oh crap.
Speaker 1:Do you think you've found it easier because this person was in jail already? I don't know what easier is. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:He's been out in this time as well, oh, right, okay. So he got out early and then re-offended in January. So he got put back in. So he did come up from below.
Speaker 1:He was out and about.
Speaker 2:When he came to court, he was locked up.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:He was already locked up, but I don't know for how long. They just recalled him in January.
Speaker 1:So was there any time from when he found out this was going to court or when he'd been questioned that he was in your local area?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I was told by somebody that he was going out with at the time when I reported. It was obviously not now with him, because he went back to his ex-wife and met her in a ginnel and beat her to death nearly. She told me that he wasn't allowed in the area because of this ex, this ex-wife, who had done this to us. But it was like literally down the road from me, just in the next town, that's it Right. And hanging about with somebody that I used to go to school with. How me just in the next town, that's it right.
Speaker 2:And hanging about with somebody I used to go to school with. What was that? How did that feel? Just, I just shit, because I just think he's hanging about with people and they have no idea what he's capable of. And I have discussed, I have spoke to the gentleman now we used to go to school with and he was just shocked and he was like it was. He said he wished I'd told him, but I know that if I told him it could impact me in court and that's what I had to be careful of as well, because if anything did happen then they could bring that up in court and that could affect my case.
Speaker 2:And I just didn't want to be. I just thought I just need to wait because once it's all over I'll tell everybody.
Speaker 1:And that was always what I said I'll tell everybody yeah, I suppose that risk of root of spoil, not spoiling the case I suppose not you're spoiling something, but the case. I suppose Not you spoiling something, but the case being spoiled against him and not actually, after going through all that, facing up to it yourself and recounting it yourself, having the bravery to do that and then having it spoiled.
Speaker 2:So the court case you didn't attend yourself, or so I did Well I did, I give evidence through video link, but I didn't go into the court.
Speaker 1:Of choice. Did you not want to?
Speaker 2:No, I could have. Once I give evidence, I could go in court, but what I couldn't do is go back downstairs. So my family, I give evidence on the Monday, my family was giving it on the Tuesday, and what I couldn't do then was if I I decided to go in the court, I wasn't allowed back to see my family. You have to stay out of court. Once you've given evidence, you can go back in court, but you can't go back and sit with the other people that are going to give evidence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you're not.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So and I don't know. I felt I don't know why I didn't go in. I thought I'm the type of person that I am, that I would at him, but then I thought I don't know I was, especially when it comes to the guilty or not guilty.
Speaker 2:the reason I didn't want to be sat there is because if it had been found not guilty and he would have looked at me and like laughed or anything, I feel like that would have massively affected yeah when, when he did what he did to me and it's one thing that's always stuck in my mind for for forever is so he punched me, left me on the bed and I went downstairs to try wake my cousin up, who wouldn't wake up.
Speaker 2:He was laid out on the floor sprawled and I was trying to wake him up and I thought tom had gone and he came out of the kitchen and he stuck his tongue out at me and left, which is obvious, which is also what he'd done to abuse me was use his tongue. So I always thought that's really sick, like I always felt like that was really sick and twisted, and so say like if I'd have been in court and he would have done something like that, if he'd been found not guilty which, let's face it, I was I was probably 20% chance that he were guilty and 80% chance. I thought he'll get found not guilty because that's just the way the system.
Speaker 1:That's what happens in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's that, it's that foundation of evidence in it and I suppose it's totally you hear about it all the time, you hear about it with women all the time and I thought this but I had to go. I had to do what. I'd put the report in cps, had taken it to court. I thought I'm not going to not go to court now I've come all this way but I know it's going to be a waste of time. But also I thought the experience of being in court will be good for me if I support anyone moving forward who maybe want to go through court system. So I kind of thought I'll just do it and just see what happens. So yeah, I think that's partly the reason I didn't go in the court, because that would have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can understand that and I suppose it's only being sat there outside a court and anxiety filled with anxiety and nerves a bit come into that, and then obviously I don't think I would have done to be there you know, I mean, it's that that thought of you know, if you, if you've, you know you're full of full of trepidation and thinking, don't walk through that to face that person.
Speaker 1:At that moment we can all sit and say, well, I'd have done this, I'd have done that, but you know, in that moment then yeah, it didn't feel right at the time yeah, so the day he actually got found guilty.
Speaker 2:I just went off with my husband and my little boy. My other two were at school and we just like I went to gym, I went for a run and we just took him out because I just needed to do something for myself really yeah, I guess you had all the family support behind you yeah, yeah, doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my mum stayed at court, so my mum let me know what was going on. She let me know when they were oh, sorry, she wasn't there at the day the guilty or not guilty but the day before when all the evidence were getting given and there were a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between barristers and he got questioned and my police officer. He got questioned, he got questioned, he re-enacted the. What happened when he went and asked him the questions in the police station at the jail the prison.
Speaker 2:yes, so yeah, my mum did keep me informed about what was going on. I just didn't really feel the need to be sat in there wasting any more of my time and energy.
Speaker 1:So, tom, obviously he got sentenced and he's sentenced for a certain amount of time. He'll probably come out in the future.
Speaker 2:I've got a feeling he's coming out because the police officer tried to ring me twice when I was on holiday and then said I won't tell you over text but I do need to speak to you. The only reason he would be because we kind of we exchanged a couple of texts and I thanked him and he thanked me and we kind of not had any contact since and then he's phoned me. I think he's getting out. He got two weeks.
Speaker 1:Does that stress you out or do you feel content that the book is closed?
Speaker 2:The book is closed for me. It doesn't stress me out, I'm not scared or anything like that. What I just think is it's just a bit crap, isn't it? It got two years because it got tried as the same laws what would have applied in 1994, which was a section of a girl under 14. You can tell how old that is, because it wouldn't be 14 now.
Speaker 1:No no.
Speaker 2:And the laws were a lot more lenient. And when the judge read all this out, apparently it was quite obvious in his face that he didn't really want to be saying what he was saying. He didn't want to try him, as he would have done back in 1994 with the old laws. But that is the law. They have, it's, it's whatever laws was in place at the time of the offense yeah, I think he would have got more now, but he got the maximum he could have got right which is two years, which still doesn't seem right.
Speaker 2:Does it two years for something like that? But?
Speaker 1:no, so can I ask what was it like when you first mentioned this to your family?
Speaker 2:so I first told my mum when I was about 12 years old, when I had been antisocial and a house near me I think I don't know what we were doing, but a man came out and started screaming and shouting at me and I was really scared. And then, when I went home and told my mum, obviously she was annoyed that I'd been up to no good and I disclosed it to my mum then, because it was probably the only time I've ever felt as scared as what I did at four was then, and I disclosed it to my mum.
Speaker 1:So that was sort of bringing the trauma back, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So can I ask you, do you think and it's obviously a yes if you've just gone on with that, having that sort of a traumatic recollection what sort of mental health issues, if you think any? I drank a lot as a teenager, so that's an escapism, and that's when I used to disclose it.
Speaker 2:So I'd drink and then I'd tell my friends. I'd cry, end at night and tell my friends. So all my friends at 13, 14, 15, all know what happened to me. I told them all. Though, if they could all, if they could all think back about the time I told them, it'd always be when we would we got drunk well, yeah, it removes inhibitions, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:And now I was. You know, you've said you're down. I'm not trying to diagnose or anything, because I'm not qualified, but you do all these. You do a lot of fitness, a lot of outdoors, is that? And you said, you try you don't think about things. You do things to keep busy. Is that to stop your mind wandering? Or?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think so, and I think it's that control thing in it. I've got three kids, I work. That's kind of out of your control, isn't it? You need to work, you need money, and I feel like when I'm running and gym it's like the only thing that I do for me. But I also feel like it's a time where my brain switches off. I put my music on and it's just me. So, yeah, I have suffered with my mental health over my life.
Speaker 2:Probably my worst time was after my second son was born. Now, when I look back and I speak to my closest friends, that was at a time where it had come back up again. So what used to happen is I used to talk loads about what had happened to me and then I wouldn't talk about it for ages. Not that I wouldn't want to, I just wouldn't bring it up or anything. Not that anybody wanted me to talk about it, but I just wouldn't bring it up or anything. Not that anybody wanted me to talk about it, but I just wouldn't bring it up. And then it would come back. Now, when I think back to when my second son was born my other son was it was like three and a half, so it's like a similar time to when that happened to me and I used to kind of look at my kids and I just used to think how could anyone do that to someone so little and innocent?
Speaker 2:and I used to look at my four-year-old and go god, like three and four, because I didn't know whether I were three or four. It's only when I've found the, when we've got the um records, that we know exactly when it was. And I used to just look and think, so I was that age and that happened to me and then I was just I didn't tell anyone and I just got on with my life, basically with all that trauma like and that kind of re-traumatized me. So I did. I was diagnosed with postnatal depression when Jesse was about nine months old and I went on tablets for like six months and then I weaned myself off them because I didn't, I didn't really want to be on tablets.
Speaker 2:I do think that some of that was to do with having a baby, second baby. You know it's hard work and your hormone imbalances and all that. And I was. I breastfed all my kids, I breastfed Jesse, but it was quite difficult baby. He didn't take to it very well, but so that was quite difficult. So there was a lot. There was a lot surrounding that, but I do. I do think the main thing was that was on my mind all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just playing on your subconscious yeah. And so how do you feel about things now?
Speaker 2:I feel like I'm in the best place that I could be really, yeah, after court. I had probably a week or so and my husband would probably agree if he were here where I was just a little bit distant. That's the only way I can describe it is. I was just a little bit distant, but I just felt like I had a lot of, so I was talking a lot about it, so I'd shared it on my facebook and I had so I can't even the amount of messages I had of people. It were really actually quite empowering and it was great. I'm so happy for anybody that like sent me a message. But it also because I was talking about it all day, every day, literally to everyone, everyone asking how it went, or people were saying I didn't know that. So I was talking about it a lot and I just felt like I ended up in a little bit of a just felt a little bit distant. I want my normal, like perky self, but I feel like I've kind of I'm back to my normal self now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean a totally different situation, but I was fine, you know, anniversary of the incident that happened to me a couple of weeks before, a couple of weeks after. So you know it's just playing on your mind, isn't it? It just affects you even though you don't think it's affecting you, and then you start masking it or I used to by getting blind-steaming drunk, but it didn't really work Right. So what would your advice be to anyone? I mean, this is, I suppose it's got to be very individual, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It is an individual thing, but I think, if you can find the strength how I see it is, it was affecting my life all the time. Even if it went for a few years, it always came back. So what was I gonna lose? I know people say about re-traumatizing, but I felt like I was always traumatized, all's it were gonna do. The re-traumatizing was like the day I went and report that I did the interview with the police. That was like a really crap day. I felt like shit, shit all day. I went for a run after, felt like shit all day, but it was worth it. I feel like it never leaves you. So for me it was. I might as well just do it. It's never going to leave me.
Speaker 1:I might as well just see if I can get some justice out of it and report it and just see what happens. Yeah, I think with everything that we hear about Casey's not going to court or Casey's going to court and being thrown out, then it's a very brave step.
Speaker 2:Well, I had family saying to me what's the point in bringing it up after all this time?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's no disrespect to the people that said it, I understand, but they also don't work in the field that I work in as well and have the friends that I've got to work in them kind of fields and there was like why are you bringing it up after all this time? That's a bit. That's people who've not experienced anything like what you've experienced trauma because what they don't realize is you're not bringing it up after all this time it's still there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, 100. Did people ever doubt you?
Speaker 2:no, I don't feel like anybody's ever not believed me. No, I genuinely don't feel like anyone's not believed me. I just feel like what, when it's something years and years ago and people maybe have not suffered with their mental health before, what I feel like people think is kind of I want you just forgot about it yet, or surely it doesn't affect you like that after all this time I do feel like there's a bit of an ignorance old kind of mentality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, I hate that time. Yeah, I know, yeah, it's. I mean, it's just there, isn't it? It's there and it's just waiting for that sticking plastic to come off and all to where, all just go recycling again. So, and I know this already, what are you waiting to do? Because this is part of raising your ear, which is brilliant, that, yeah, that we know that you, you want to keep sharing this and keep putting this out to basically empower and sort of inspire other. Will it just be ladies? Will it be guys? Will it be or just people to be men as well?
Speaker 2:I've actually got a guy that would. So basically, my aim is I would like to start a podcast for survivors to come forward and tell their story, whether they've been through criminal justice system or not, ever been to the police and reported it or not. To tell their story because I I believe I feel like the more people one, the more people talk about this stuff, the more aware we are, and that this actually goes on all the time, because there's still people that are ignorant and think it doesn't happen as much as what it does. People couldn't believe it had happened to me. I'm a runner and I'm a strong woman. I've got three kids. I can't believe that happened to you and it's like, just you know, this happens to so many people. Also.
Speaker 2:I feel like it could help people who haven't come forward yet to maybe come forward and and report. It's really difficult because I was in a big um meeting the other week with the mayor of yorkshire and the deputy mayor and they were saying about the reporting and that not a lot of people come forward and report. And how do we get people to come forward and report? And it is hard because we could get all these people to come forward and report, but it doesn't mean to say they're going to take it to court. But I feel like at least you've tried and at least at least then we've got the more statistics, because they're saying it's an epidemic about violence against women, about violence, sexual abuse. How many people are going to the police and reporting historic sexual abuse? But I know there's many women out there that have never reported. So imagine, if they come forward, how actually bad it is out there. So I feel like if we could encourage more people to come forward, then we'd see how bad it actually is and maybe we could get more support.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and make it more sort of remove the stigma, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I suppose, talking about stigma, I believe that there's even less sorry, a less percentage of men report because of that stigma as well definitely definitely I suppose at this point, if where are you, where are you?
Speaker 2:we're setting this up well, we're just looking for a producer. We've got a sound technician. I'm going to do the interviewing. We're a bit we're. It depends who we get as the producer to what, what we decide where we're going to record. But yeah, we're a bit we're. It depends who we get as the producer to what we decide where we're going to record. But yeah, we're just looking for a producer and then hopefully we can start. I've got six people willing to come on. I've got the deputy mayor of yorkshire. She wants to come on. So I've got people lined up. It's just getting the set up, really, and I feel like the response that I had from my and I don't have a like a massive following or out on social media, just people I used to go to school with and like family and friends but I feel like the response that I had from that.
Speaker 1:I do feel like there'll be a lot of people that will listen to it yeah, I think, well, I think just you know that having the having the attitude you've got and that bravery to do it all right, we say bravery, but obviously you're just going out, you're just going to go ahead with it as that's just you being, that's your normal character by the sound of it, yeah, yeah, then. Yeah, I would imagine I'd have a great spot. I suppose what I could say is, if anyone can be of help and you're not totally set up at the time this goes out, then they could email us and we'll pass the emails on to you.
Speaker 2:That'd be amazing.
Speaker 1:Rather than you giving personal details out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:So that would. What should we go with Info? Info at whitefolkstalkingcom. That would be pretty smooth, that, mate. Yeah, I think you are In a Yorkshire accent, that's it, because there'll be Yorkshire listeners Info at whitefolkstalkingcom. Can you go back and tell us about this west yorkshire survivor leaders, because I know you told us a bit earlier, but I'm just I'm quite taken by how much, how it has inspired you to move ahead with this.
Speaker 2:So so are we all. So the one at bradford rape crisis put out a post asking for people who would experience sexual violence to come forward because they had this money, this funding, so it was paid research and they wanted to do a piece of research on how to become survivors and leaders of change after experiencing sexual violence. I was just like, listen, I've experienced sexual violence. I feel like I'm a survivor, a leader. I want to be a part of it. Didn't really know what this was going to entail. I was like what are we actually researching? How do you research? But basically it was conversation. So it was right at the beginning of COVID, so it was meant to be face-to-face, but it's always ended up and always has been online and we used to meet. There was actually male in our group right at the beginning. It's now all female and it will remain all female, but we spoke about police systems and criminal justice systems and what it felt like to be a survivor, what we was missing. So like we've got some ladies in our group that feel like people need to be upskilled and taught about how to be a survivor, especially women that have been trafficked, because they might you know, they might not this English in their first language and then they can't really do anything with their lives so they might need to go on courses and stuff like that. So we did this huge piece of research and it was absolutely fantastic. It's. It's great. And in there we had some recommendations and as recommendations also involved us staying together and applying for more money and hiring a community development worker and getting more women involved, basically in in west yorkshire and helping women as much as we possibly could, but not a therapy group. That's definitely not what we are as a therapy group. It's about enabling people to make change and, like I said, how you respond to sexual violence.
Speaker 2:So for a year we was kind of doing a funding bid. So we did the research. Over, say, maybe 18 months. We produced this research. Bradford Rape Crisis absolutely rate us. They're such fantastic support to us.
Speaker 2:People left the group. Then we become a very small group of like five. We applied for this £250,000. We got it. We hired a community development worker. Then we decided so we are the steering group of that money. We kind of um steer how that money's spent.
Speaker 2:We applied for we decided to put out a post to get some more people on our steering group. So we had a session where some ladies come along and we got another four women. It was four women, three, so now there's like I think there's like six of us. And then since then we've now started the actual work work, which is we had a session where we invited 40 women along and we told them about the work that we was doing, and now they are all in our skills academy. So they're all doing training courses about making change, about how to change policy, all that kind of stuff. And that's what they're currently doing at the moment and, like I said earlier, we're hoping they will all form. It could be by area or it could be by subject, what they all want to do. So an example of this is at the moment we kind of want to it's not protest, what's it called? I can't think of the word. Basically, some councillors are not DBS checked, not therapy councillors are not dbs checked, not, not.
Speaker 2:Not therapy councillors, I'm on about labour councillors, like them government dbs and obviously you hear you hear about it a lot. I've heard quite a bit in the news about people being done for crimes who are local councillors and we actually had a lady in our group who'd had an issue with a counsellor. And anyway, we want to campaign, is what I was going to say. We want to campaign about this because so I'm a community development worker on Warwick Estate in Nottingley and Wakefield Council actually do DBS their counsellors. But anyway, if they didn't, they are actually trusted people.
Speaker 2:So I would have a local counsellor come into my hub and say if I had kids in there I'd quite happily go to the toilet and I wouldn't think about maybe leaving them in the room. You would automatically assume, I believe, that a local councillor who is there for the community, who's in the community, in the heart of the community, doing community work in community centres, youth centres, that they would be DBS checked. And they're not. It's not a thing, they don't have to be. So we've started getting in touch with all different councils to find out who like who has that rule and who don't, and a majority of them don't feel the need to dbs check them I think they should be government level.
Speaker 1:Can you imagine that? So me and said both working on doors dbs, me working with young people dbs, constantly, constantly enhanced dbs. But then you've got people making these decisions. There's no DBS. Ooh, I could get on board with this, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it is so. We did go to somebody about it, somebody quite high up I'm not going to name them just in case, but they said that the issue with we asked for their support in our campaign and they said the issue with that would be that it might put people off coming forward to be a councillor if they thought they might have to be DBS.
Speaker 2:And we were like well, so they should be, so they should, yeah, if they're being done for doing something that's I'm not talking about petty theft at 14, stole some chewing gum from the shop, and they're now in their 30s and they've never committed a crime since and since that's. But you should. My mum and she won't mind me saying this has some stuff on her DBS from years ago and she will quite aptly go for a job, while my mum and she will tell them there, like you do. You're honest with me. Yeah, I got done for this back in. There's nothing wrong with that. Not everybody has a clean record, but if they've been done for coercive behaviour or they've been reported for a sexual crime, or then they shouldn't be going. They should be standing up as a counsellor, they shouldn't be shows.
Speaker 1:I think what that shows is the depth. I'll be honest. I just opened national crime statistics for sexual offences and I'm not even going through to read these. We'll put a link to it, I think, in podcasting, if anyone wants to look at it. It's like bloody hell, you know. I mean, it's not something that you look at every day, is it?
Speaker 1:no and it's, it's staggering. Like you said, there's so many people that don't report and then we've got people that are making the rules. So it's part of that stigma because the people that are making the rules are above the rules.
Speaker 2:I think there is a lot of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Men in power. I think it'd be great to get more women doing more powerful roles. Be like women take power differently roles. They're like women take power differently. I always feel like I've always said this if women ran the country, there'd never be wars because we'd just sit down and talk it out. It might take five days to talk it out and they wouldn't shut up bloody talking, but they'd talk it out, whereas I feel like some men in power how they respond to conflict and stuff is just different. We're just built differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, although let's not go back to Margaret Thatcher, we're done. Oh yes, let's trust Jesus.
Speaker 2:Christ, yeah, there's always going to be them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so have you anything to add? I don't want to miss anything that you might want to put out, because it's such a valuable conversation.
Speaker 2:No, I suppose just that if anybody did want to get involved in the podcast or like the Survivor Leaders Group, if they obviously email you, you we will be relaunching the academy at some point, so we'll be doing a re-round of getting more women involved. So if people would like to get involved in that, then you know we'd be, we'd be welcome you with open arms brilliant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're. We're more than happy to help with that until there's, until you get set up with contact details and stuff, rather than going to your facebook or don't be doing that.
Speaker 2:But equally also, if anyone reading this and they did have me on Facebook or Instagram or anything like that listening to this, sorry, they could quite happily contact me. I'm quite open, and if anyone wanted to ask any questions about the process of going through a criminal justice system, I'd also be open to kind of supporting me. One thing I would mention actually is which is something I'm quite strong about is I hate the word victim. I just don't like it, and that's come from my survivor leader group as well. Years ago we had a discussion about that and they was all saying we don't feel like victims.
Speaker 2:We're not victims, we're leaders, we're survivors, and I did go to the police about this. When I had my interview, I asked the police officer to take it to higher ranks Not that nothing will change right now, but the terminology the police use. So when I went to the police station, one of the first things I noticed when I went to do my interview was that I was in a suite and it said vulnerable victims suite and I walked into it and I just thought not fucking vulnerable victims Cutting me in that room Straight away.
Speaker 1:I suppose that gives that negative. It's an idea of a negative mindset as I go in here and I'm a victim.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And obviously the police do see you as a victim. It's their vocabularies, what they use, it's how they do it. But this is another thing. What I feel like over time does need to change, because that can actually really impact someone, and I think, as much as I've had a great experience with police really impact someone, and I think, as much as I've had a great experience with police, I know a lot of people haven't and some things like that in the police is what massively affects people, like putting you into a suite, like says vulnerable victim yeah, I suppose I mean.
Speaker 1:It's like, if you have, you've, you've used the word survivor all the way through this and like a for a mindset change to myself was like, oh, struggling, I struggle with mental health. Actually, no, I live with PTSD. Do you know what I mean? It's one of them. You know what? I mean Survivor of PTSD, yeah, Well, no, I just live with it. We get on now. You know, we have us fallouts now and again.
Speaker 2:And I'm sure I will. I'm sure I will over years, I don't think when it's ever going to like completely leave me. But also there's the. I've got a lot more self-awareness now. I know my triggers. Silly example. It's not a silly example, it's real. It's real, actually what happens to me. But I really struggle with um lights with a fan around them. They don't really have them in houses now right you have a light and it's got a fan and you can, you can put it in.
Speaker 2:Well, my aunt in the bed that night when that happened. She she had one of them, a brown one, and I've always really struggled because they tend to have them on holidays and I know that if there's one of them above my bed that I tend to have nightmares and I sleep really uneasy. My husband knows about it. Don't like going upstairs last Like I have a weird feeling that someone's following me upstairs. That it comes from when I tried to wake my cousin up and he stuck his tongue out with me and left. I ran back upstairs and I remember running back upstairs in a panic, thinking behind me. So I have this like weird thing about going up the stairs and like feeling like someone's gonna be behind me if I'm last upstairs on a night.
Speaker 2:My husband will never let me be last upstairs. He always makes sure I go first and he does all lights and stuff, and it be that's just's just about accepting that's how it is for you and just kind of knowing yourself, yeah, and working with it.
Speaker 1:I suppose Well, do you know what I mean? It's great that you've got a supportive family around you and stuff like that. And I suppose one sort of highlight of this has been that the criminal justice system has helped, because we heard a lot about it not helping and not being listened to and not heard, and not stories from like years and years ago people just being laughed out in that.
Speaker 2:so and there was no. I say there was no evidence he got guilty. I just want to say there was no physical evidence?
Speaker 2:I suppose there's no physical evidence and the report from the hospital was that I did go in with a bruised cheek. Nothing about a broken cheekbone. Now, this is a bit of. My mum always said I had a broken cheekbone. The hospital records said it were a black eye and I had a scan, but there's no results from that. So it's that thing of I don't actually know if I had a broken cheekbone or not. Nobody really seems to know.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:The hospital said I didn't, but my mum said she remembers that I actually did. So that kind of evidence was all of it. And then the police they changed to online systems and literally all they found were a sheet of paper from that. So, like, evidence-wise there wasn't a lot there, but what there was, there is consistencies throughout my life where I told people at 13, 14, 15, I told my husband at 17, I told my friends. All my friends have known about it since, like the moment I met them Not the moment I met him, but quite and because I've kept them friends throughout my whole life and they say, yes, she has spoken about it, kind of like throughout her life. That was actually what supported me in court. It wasn't actually any evidence. And also it was me.
Speaker 2:When it comes to the cross-examination, which I was petrified for. I mean, when they called me in, I was shaking. I for I mean when they called me in, I was shaking. I thought I was gonna have a panic attack it. I've never why. I felt like that once in my life, once when my dog got attacked, but I was.
Speaker 2:It was awful and she kept trying to. It was a job. She kept trying to tell me that I didn't know that it was him because I don't even know what he looked like at the time and I can't describe him. So she kept going go on then describe him. And I was like I don't remember but it was.
Speaker 2:People try in in cases like that, people try and make you out as whether you're a liar or your memory isn't serving you right and I suppose sometimes, especially when you're so young, you could think, well, did I remember it? Right? But I know what happened to me and and I remember it, and I and bit and that's what I kept repeating back to her told my mum the next day it was him. She's like, well, describe him. Then I was like, well, describe him then. And I was like I can't describe him. But I told my mum the next day, who did it to me, and I kept repeating that back and obviously that supported. I didn't get angry, it was a job, but I kind of maintained that, if I know how to say it, that I know what happened and I just kept repeating back the same thing.
Speaker 1:It's conviction. It that conviction in yourself that that is what happened. Yeah, well, very well done. I hope sort of this goes out and inspires other people that they don't have to put up with this, put up with that shit and then come out and talk about it. Yeah, and then obviously, with all the work that you're aiming to do and the work you're already doing, a bit of an inspiration, aren't you really?
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, you are, aren't you I you like?
Speaker 2:it really. Thank you. Well, you are, aren't you? I don't always feel like it, I just feel like I'm just a normal person.
Speaker 1:But is it helping you doing that, do you think? Yeah, I think us doing this helps me and Seb doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely think it helps me. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I mean most of the time it's Seb pulling his hair out for working with me. But you know what I mean. You've got loads to pull out. It's fine, mine's gone. Mine's gone up front from when I used to work with Seb on the door Is that a hairdresser that's not qualified. Yeah, big shout out to Craig there.
Speaker 2:You'll have to sell him the joke behind that.
Speaker 1:Well, fully enough, there were this little thing popped up. I just had my hair cut last week and he shaved it right open. He went it's on trend at the minute, and then something pops up on face. You know, all these things pop up and it's a picture of a lion with all its hair cut off, saying this is how lions look when they're trying to look young. So anyway, on that note, on that light-hearted note, would say thank you very much for coming in. Thank you, kaylee, yes, and wish you all the best in the future and if we can be of any help, then don't don't hesitate to get in contact.
Speaker 1:Thank, you very much Thank you, and if you'd like to support us and help us keep the podcast going, then you can go to Buys a Coffee or you can click that on our website, whitefoxtalkingcom, and look for the little cup. Thank you.
