E85: When Words Aren’t Enough with Lesley Andrew – How Art Therapy Speaks for You

You can be “fine on paper” and still feel like your nervous system is on fire. That’s why we sit down with artist and registered art therapist Lesley Andrew to unpack how art therapy works when talking isn’t enough, and why the smallest creative act can be a turning point for stress, anxiety, trauma, burnout, and low mood.

We get clear on what art therapy is and what it is not: not a graded art class, not performance, and not about producing a perfect final piece. Lesley explains how images, color, texture, and even mess can become a safe language for emotions that feel too tangled, too painful, or too hard to name. We also talk about the myths that keep people away, including the belief that you have to be “good at art,” and why creativity can be especially powerful for people who tend to overthink and intellectualize their feelings.

The conversation widens into education and culture: what happens when schools cut arts, phones fill the empty space, and young people lose healthy outlets for expression. Lesley shares what real sessions can look like, how different materials can help regulate the nervous system, and how tiny wins like tolerating a mistake without erasing can build resilience over time. You’ll also hear practical ways to start today with low-pressure tools, plus how to find qualified support through NHS pathways, charities, private practice, and professional directories.

If this resonates, listen now, share it with someone who’s carrying too much, and subscribe for more honest conversations about mental health, self-development, and tools that actually help. After you listen, what’s one creative habit you could try for five minutes this week?

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A New Pace Podcast

Transcript

Welcome And Sleepy Small Talk

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Hello and welcome to the White Folks Talking podcast. I'm Matt Charlie Valentine and at the side of me is Seb. Hello Charlie, you still sound rough. I do. And when I look on that screen, it's not patching me. What's going on there? Oh, is it audio delay? Audio delay?

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Why is that?

SPEAKER_01 0:17

It's alright, it'd be fine on the video. Thought it was me. Falling asleep while you talk.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Thought that was me. Well, I did have a good sleep last night. Nice little fifteen hours. Wow. Bit of travelling. Bit of cold. Hopefully non-infectious. Yeah, hopefully. I'll bring it tomorrow. Otherwise. Well, you might be in bed for 15 hours at night. Anyway, how are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I'm great, thank you. Yeah. Back at the helm. Do you do you know what? Start going back to the gym. Good lad. For me back. Strengthen it.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Yeah. I'm always worried me about doing low back exercises in case I pull something.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah. I think it's just getting the movement back. And the podcast with Ricky really stuck with me. I've just got to do it.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Yeah. So I'll just I'm just doing it. Although I know it's my it's my hamstrings that do my back, it's ridiculous. Does it make you tired though? Well, go to the gym. So yeah, but it's in a good way of tired, isn't it? Rather than being absolutely rather being mind-tired. I have been mind-tired. But I like when I'm s when you know I've been doing the skiing structure and I come home and just go to sleep for a few hours and then wake up and then try and do something and then go back to bed for more hours. Sleep is important. But it's one of the five pillars of mental well-being. Just maintaining, not improving. Okay. Right. Why are we here? We're gonna do a podcast.

unknown 1:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

So I'd like to welcome today's guest. Who is Leslie Andrew? Welcome. The White Fox Talking Podcast is sponsored by Energy Impact.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Hello. Hello, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

You are most welcome. Would you give the listeners a brief introduction to yourself and what you do? Yeah. Why we've asked you in.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

So, yeah, so my name's Leslie. I'm an artist and art therapist. And in a nutshell, I help people to express themselves. So I used to, I've always loved art. Art's always been part of my life, even when I was really little. And for a long for a good 11 years, I was an art teacher as well. And then decided to retrain to become an art therapist because I suppose I just really recognized the therapeutic benefits of art. And it wasn't really purely about what the art looked like, but the process of it. And I've really benefited from that myself as well. So leaning into art therapy and learning that and helping other people to express themselves when words using images and using creativity, when words might be too hard to find or too painful to use, or people might feel misunderstood, or not even really know how to explain what's going on for them. Art can speak.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

So art is a very wide spectrum, isn't it? What kind of art are we talking about? Anything?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Yeah, so so the type of things that I would sort of really focus on is more visual arts. Um, paintings, drawings, photography, use of different objects, sculptures, different things like that, rather than the arts is a huge thing, isn't it? And the arts is so important for improving mental health as well. And I when I was training, I trained with some drama therapists and some music therapists, and a lot of the theoretical understanding was the same, but then the way that they interacted and supported people was different. It's like you're just using a different tool. So yeah, but I mean, my my background artistically was textiles. My undergraduate degree was sort of constructed textiles and it was design. And then I suppose as I've developed creatively, my work's become more sort of I don't know, more fine art-based, individual pieces rather than products. So I think I think that matches with the way a lot of my clients work as well, that like they're creating something that might be like a standalone piece rather than making something that looks good for somebody else, doing it for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

So I'm just trying to think, I'm just trying to it's quite a big difference between an art teacher and an art therapist. Yeah. I suppose art teaching because I did art at school. Ooh, back all them years. All them years, I got an old level. Got an old level in art, yeah. But obviously, that's teaching. It's like a graded thing, isn't it? But art therapy is nothing like that then be graded, it's just is it an express is an expression of feeling and self and freedom.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Yeah, there's there's there's huge differences. And when I first started learning the techniques and like being like working with people to in in an art therapy setting, I was really mindful not to to be really clear about this is art therapy, it's not art teaching. And I'd often have people saying, Oh, what we're coming to the art class or coming to that class and wanting to do this. And you'd get people that would be nervous about doing any art therapy or making any art because of perhaps they might feel that they're not very skilled with art, that they might have even had a bad experience in education that they might have been picked up on and it might have kind of had a big impact, like if they're told off for doing something that's messy, or the the impact on that's huge. So I was very cautious about times when I would help people. So if somebody technically needed some help, I would be um leaning away from that. Whereas actually um with the message of it's not about what it looks like, it's about how you express yourself and how you create something. After over a decade of of being an art therapist, I feel I've got that freedom to help people in a way that works better for them because I'm not worried about am I an art therapist, am I a teacher, am I getting it right? It's weird that I've got I for a long time I had that. Was I getting it right? As I being a pure art therapist. But I suppose what it means is that if somebody's got a block or an obstacle stopping them from expressing themselves, if that block is a technical technical block, then I'd be doing a disservice to them if I didn't teach that technique or teach about proportions of the face or teach about a certain material's properties. So now in the work that I do and the online programmes that I offer and generally, it all sort of comes together. So it feels much richer and it feels more about like fit people feel that there's a sense of achievement and enjoyment as well as expressing their emotions and going through something that might be really challenging itself.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

So two questions. First, what drew you to art to be an art teacher, and then what drew you from being an art teacher to art therapy? But there's a bit of rest of it now.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Um so when I finished uni, I went travelling to Nepal. So this was a long time ago. And I remember like there was lots and lots of things. We were working with children, we were working with families, and I I did my first ever art lesson there because people were saying, You did art at uni, why don't you do some art? And part of the project that we were doing was helping to build a school and we were passing bricks and we were sieving sand and we stayed in a f with a family within the community. And because people knew that I'd literally just graduated from like I was at Dundee Uni art school, that oh well we want some of you, all your students come and teach something to these pupils, and they were really fascinated because they were just thinking, we want to learn from the British people, we want to learn from from them, and yeah, I just I taught an art lesson, and I think I was teaching about drawing animals, they were very interested in like buffalo and like the different animals that were local to them, so yeah, teaching their kind of simple something visual, and part of that was you know what, I want I always want art in my life, and so actually going and pursuing this makes sense, it makes sense, and yeah, I think that's really where that like a real strong pivotal point with that, and there's lots of creative practices out in Nepal as well. There was a lot of things that you'd see things and you think, well, I I had a sketchbook that I took with me and I was doodling and drawing, and which I do when I'm traveling anyway, but then thinking it's more about helping people to to do that. So that's really that stepping stone to be an art teacher. And yeah, I was an art teacher for 11 years, and what I loved about that, what what's still important, is when you've got kind of different levels where some people it's very much about learning the simple things. Learning, I don't know, I I say simple, but for other people it might not be so simple, but something like how to mix colours sort of thing for and techniques for other people it's about uh ideas. So I could you could be flexible to work with a year a six-former to go down a channel of their ideas compared to work with say an 11-year-old, but it's more about skills and techniques. So it was really good for a long time until not so much it wasn't, but until I started to need to use art therapeutically for myself, and then you know, helping people with their own emotions. I'd I'd have I needed to use art for myself a lot around that time.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Was there a reason for it?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Um to do with like some health issues. So I've had some long-standing health issues that um somewhat resolved two years ago. There's like three different surgeries linked with sort of uterine fibroids, which is sort of cancer non-cancerous tumours of the uterus. So they cause all sorts of kind of tiredness, fatigue. I was very badly anemic, and that kind of really affected what I could do. So I was like, I really struggled a lot of the time, and I was really needing to use art to to help me to kind of feel more grounded and like to feel a bit more joy and to feel that you were using art therapy to heal yourself first. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Yeah. So I I had two bouts of surgery in my last year of teaching, and uh while I was recovering from them, then I suppose this is where it changed from my my art practice changed from textiles really to painting and using art in a like in a really sort of grounding way, and it like creating was creating landscapes, and I have a big theme of painting landscapes, and a lot of the narrative around that is well, if I've not got the energy to go and hike, I can paint the mountains instead. And um, yeah, I heard a poem about that at one point as well, I can't remember it now, but yeah. So I suppose the fact that I knew so innately that art and creativity was helpful for me without really knowing any of the theory of art therapy. There was that innate kind of sense of that drive to to go and do it. And I suppose for years I would be advising like some of the students that, oh, I'm doing psychology and art, what career should I do? And I didn't do art therapy. I hadn't thought about it myself, but yeah, it took a while to for the penny to drop. And so yeah, then I I left teaching and pursued art therapy. And I think what feels looking back, what feels like it was a no-brainer, but looking back, what feels important is that I really had that passion and that desire to do art therapy above and beyond any doubts I had about being a teacher. And teaching is a hard role. Anyone that's teaching, like it takes its toll, like you're really giving you all. So actually, I know a lot of people that have got really burnt out from teaching, and I don't I don't know whether some of my health things could be linked to that, who knows? But where they're getting to the point of just being burnt out and they have to stop. And I didn't really have that. I had more of a ooh, it was I was really curious. Like, I'd love to want to do art therapy, and the year before I'd done a trial course and things, and yeah, it just felt important to do that.

Healing Through Health Struggles

SPEAKER_01 11:53

I mean, personally, I never heard of art therapy. Fortunately, I don't fortunately I don't research. Is this something very popular? I mean, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

So I think that you you're not alone in that you haven't heard of it. I think there's a lot of myths about art therapy and a lot of kind of misunderstandings about art therapy. Sometimes people see um have you ever seen those colouring books? Like they might be called, I mean, I don't see them called art therapy so much anymore, but for at first they were all called art therapy and people would be colouring and oh I'm doing some art therapy. However, actually, whilst colouring can be therapeutic, art therapy when you're working with a therapist and the art making, that's like a well, it's a protected title as well for like being an art therapist is a protected title. We registered with the healthcare professions council, and like it's just a a really helpful mental health treatment. So, yeah, it's I can completely relate to that.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

My mum um used to paint, she's in the minute she doesn't because she doesn't have time, but there were always paintings around the house, and we've still got loads of paintings, and she was always she always seemed in a better mood, or when she was in a bad mood, she just went paint, just disappeared and then come out with these amazing paintings, which are all over the house. Um, so I can completely relate to that, but I didn't know it was something that people were doing.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Yeah, and like I I would say that encourage people to be creative and to make art and yeah, creativity is for everybody, anybody is more of a choice to pursue it and to allow it to be unlocked, and just being able to sort of go, okay, do you do you do you might do your ice bath, you might do your journaling, you might do your um mindfulness meditations, are you doing something creative? So, in terms of sort of personal development, I think it's a really good thing to sort of contribute and same with sort of something that's enjoyable, something that's about achievement, something about connecting. And quite often, people that struggle with their emotions, that they might have experienced some relational trauma, whatever that is, some things that might kind of not be able to connect with people fully or trust people, when they can connect with their art, they've got that art in front of them, there's a connection to themselves and making those choices about something as something like kind of what what line am I gonna do? What mark am I gonna make? Or what colour am I gonna use? Like it's very telling if somebody's coming in and they've no idea about what to do, and then a few weeks later they're actually I really want to do this. I've got an idea and I really want to feel more confident to do this and to work with this. So it's like your mum might be then kind of going, well, I'm gonna make something that's kind of more established now. I'm feeling like really empowered to do something that's that's gone from maybe a doodle or scribble to something that feels more sustained. And that's where when I was saying about combining the bringing the art and art teaching and art education parts together and not having that, not feeling that they needed to be divided, that's where that comes in to be pushing people to really expand their creativity and do more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

So I think oh what did I read? Your brain on art, and then the other one, what was that? The master in his hemisphere. That was hard going for someone like me. But talking about different hemispheres of your brain and the creative, creative hemisphere against the practical hemisphere. And if you're more in the creative hemisphere, you're turning the practical, you're giving the practical hemisphere a bit of a break, aren't you? I believe, again, any professionals out there, I do I will stand to be corrected because I'm not a professional. But it makes sense, don't it, that you know, even them things that you run about with the colouring books, if you're concentrating or letting yourself do that, then you're possibly turning the sort of the stress side off with many pastimes. Um even down to you know the walking and stuff like that. You know, you're having this time off. It's not particularly time off because your body's still working, but your consciousness is diverted somewhere else rather than shit. I need to pay my tax, I need to pay my credit card, etc. etc. Would that be a fair assessment?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Absolutely. I think we're we're stuck in our heads a lot, aren't we? As humans, especially like with so much media that you can absorb and information and being able to get out of your head and into your heart, into your art, I think is a good a good way of thinking about things. And yeah, and sometimes they're saying like some of the techniques for improving mental health or helping people when they're really, really struggling, like if they're in a crisis or something, is about distraction.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

And like there's a time when distraction is important, and there's a time when you might feel that or need to really look within and feel the feelings and express them and sit with them and notice them, and you know, with maybe that. I'm just noticing that I'm feeling this, and it's hard to it's hard to do that.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Yeah.

Myths And Who It Helps

SPEAKER_00 16:54

Because you're having to notice what you're also noticing and put some language to it. So actually just letting go of that for a few minutes can help you to then reframe to oh it's it's not all consuming.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

I suppose you've got we you've come into this with lived experience as well through through finding you went to you went back to art or you looked at art when you were rec recovering from health issues.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

So that must be vitally important to your practice now.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I always made art, but the way that I made art changed when I was using it for me, when I was choosing to to allocate time for it. So the the way that I was creating art was more like I'd have an idea or I'd see something in Leeds City Centre, or I'd take photographs, or I'd see I'd be out and about, and I'd or I'd see an artist idea. And instead of that becoming inspiration for my own art, it would be become a project for some a year group or something. So and so I'd be still making the art, but yeah, it's shifted. So, but yeah, and I've taught I toy all the time about am I an artist or I'm an art therapist or where does it go? How does it fit? And really, I suppose I get to the bottom line of sort of going, I'm an artist and I'm an art therapist, but then it's it's a weird, like I'm both, but it's weird, it's like there's an artist element to the core, and then the roles are like because I yeah, the roles become different throughout your life.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

So, as obviously some people don't know about art therapy. I've never really heard of it, just in case some people what sort of what sort of people would disappeal to and how would they find out about it?

SPEAKER_00 18:38

So so there we have yeah, but a whole range of people. I think one common myth is that it's just for children, really, or people that might not have the cognitive ability to use words to express their emotions. So a lot of children do a lot of children do find art making like helpful, and there are a lot of services where children are using art therapy, and it can be really helpful for people with physical disabilities, learning disabilities, mobility issues. Sometimes I've worked with people with brain damage, like um impairments, as well as people who like now in in the work that I'm working with, it's much more sort of for adults and women, sort of in that sort of perimenopause midlife stage where there's been challenges in their life, or they may be a bit burnt out, burnt out from life in. And sometimes like that, that kind of ripping off that plaster of changes in hormones and changes in in age and expectations of them can uncover different things. So part of of that kind of idea of sometimes people that are very intellectual and they may communicate how they're feeling really well. Some sometimes people would say art therapy is not for them. However, actually, it's can be really helpful because part of the challenge when somebody, everyone's different, of course, but part of a challenge when somebody is, I suppose, intellectualising and in their head thinking about all of these things is that they may ruminate more or they may feel a lot of shame. I can't talk about these things, it's too much, it feels too much. Whereas actually having that non-threatening approach of we're going to create something, doesn't matter what it looks like, we can do anything with this. If people are allowing themselves to do that, then that can really calm the nervous system, really energize and really help to sort of connect with that subconscious mind. So we're connecting with some of those subconscious, I suppose those limiting beliefs that might be causing somebody to go, you know what, I need to be, I need to be on guard, I need to be doing things perfectly, or I need to show up and show that I'm strong, getting through this thing really strong. Whereas, yeah, and that's where it feels a bit like anybody. So it seems very vague saying, Well, anybody, but I suppose it's it depends what people are wanting to get out of it, what their aims are as to how we'd we'd go about it.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

So I guess you get a lot of people that have never been creative in their personal life or ever.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

And then be like, Oh, I don't know how to do this. Yeah. And then they just let loose, and then the creative mind kind of builds a bridge to the healing.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah, I think there's something about needing the the logical part, needing to be convinced that the creative part and to allow the creative part to come out. So it's like, I mean, I'm I'm terrible with the sort of um factual things, the neuroscience of it, and it's like that. But if they're if they're seeing some evidence about actually how the nervous systems regulated through making of art and just like through the different art materials. So if you've got like a dripping paint that that could that's very different to maybe a solid crayon, that you've got like a certain sense of safety with that and certain being in flow and it being a bit messy, or some people. Really struggle with the mess, but if they're they've given that logical answer, then actually, oh yeah, well, maybe I'll try this. It makes sense to give this a shot. And like they're already having to step out the comfort zones a lot of the time. For people that have that don't feel that creativity is their thing, they may need to step out their comfort zone to take part in it. However, people that are just really into art already, then that could that's why probably why children find it or adults think children will find it easier.

Schools, Phones, And Losing Creativity

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah. Just a thought. So do you think without going on around? Do you think the sort of education system it could be partly to blame for restricting people doing art? Because and and continuing to be creative. One, because when we've been educated. So like I said, I've got an O-level in art.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

And we have to reach this level. So you think, well, I'm not very good at that. That's why it stops. And then the and I suppose on a in a sort of countrywide view or a a governmental view, we're cutting the arts. We're cutting time for the arts because we need to do maths. We need to do I don't know sciences and whatever. You know what I mean? And so that creative side of the brain or the creative side is not used as much, and we don't ex and people don't express themselves as much. And also they're not getting that stress relief and giving themselves that time because they're concentrating on other things and then become the main factors.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah, it's tr it's true. And I think like there's so many like restrictions that happen in school. So many people that um struggle to access education at all because they can't access the environment. So even just getting in, physically getting in, let alone learning anything, is really out of reach for a lot of people. And yeah, that like cutting out the arts. When I was teaching, like the younger ones didn't have they, I think they had a choice between they weren't a rotation between art, music, and drama. It may have changed now, but that's how it sort of was. So they didn't have like a real they they'd have a block of art when they had art, and we had a really good project that they would do and that would keep coming round, but it wasn't something that was all the time. But then it's a long time since I've been in education, so I would there's a lot of things that I wouldn't really be able to comment on. But I know compared when I was teaching, compared to when I was in school, there's a huge difference. I when I was doing like my A levels, for instance, I felt like I wasn't very good at art. I felt really criticized, and the reason why I carried on with it is because I just loved it, but I felt like it wasn't possible to be an artist that you had to be. I think I remember him saying you had to be like the next Michelangelo to to pursue a career as an artist. So it was it felt like that, and there were lots of people in my class who were very accurate with their drawing. I had I basically had piles and piles and piles of art. If if you there was an award and a grade for how much there was, if it got weighed, I'd have got an A. Probably for sure. But it's yeah, there's I know so many people that like home educate their children now and they've got that freedom and they've got that flexibility, and they they are able to learn more because they're allowed to be creative. So if you're spending 80% of the time working on your well-being, then and 20% of the time learning, actively learning, you'll learn more in that 20% than if it was the other way around.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

Yeah, I'm just thinking there's so much you see in young people these days that there's so much stress and angst, you know. And we're only just going into this thing that we're talking about of banning mobile phones at schools because of the stress caused by social media and distractions and that. But then we've you know, we're dropping things like the arts, which if you had something in the curriculum, then maybe the students, the pupils would have a better way a way of approaching the other subjects. Yeah. I've not just made that up, I've read that. Obviously. What angst. Angst. No, it's a German word, you know. Is it? Yeah. I thought Reorks a word. Well you learned something.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

But what's it mean?

SPEAKER_02 25:56

It's like being scared. Yeah. It's like scary versus stress. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

It's like a stress thing. So yeah. Yeah, I've lost track of what we're talking about now. But yeah, when people are str are stressed in a classroom, they can't learn. And and if they're feeling that they they aren't enjoying what they're doing, then they might go on their phone and go, oh, not really enjoying this. I'm gonna go and look on school on my on my phone because I'm or distracted, if it is. But if they're doing something that they really enjoy, then I'm the same if I go somewhere. If I go out somewhere and I'm bored, I'm not on the phone. But if it's really fun and if I'm kind of consumed and I'm like out dancing or whatever, then I'd even pick up my phone. Or I wouldn't at all. I I'd rather not be on my phone if I'm out with people anyway. But it's that message of like rather than it being restrictive, like really expanding someone's experience so it's like feeling enjoyable so that they can actually access it.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

I'm just thinking if we are actually just increases perpetual cycle and growing, growing wave of young people not having access to the arts as such that we are there feeding into their stress. And in the future, because they've never tried it, they're not likely to try it. And then you know, and then it's like, well, what is art therapy? Oh yeah, which is not great for, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Which makes sense, doesn't it? Because then that's something that feels out of reach and it feels more scary. You feel that you've got to get it right.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

And then as a as a culture, uh Western culture, then if we think we're going into something that we're not very good at, we're unlikely to try it.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, especially if the you you've been told you can only do things if you're good at it, if it's gonna have I don't know, like have a big impact, profound impact that's gonna be because yeah, I I'd have people saying, Oh, what do I need? What great what subjects do I need for that? Right. And when they're choosing subjects, they're like, Oh, I want to do that career, what do I need? Rather than, well, what lessons do I enjoy? And that makes a difference because if you enjoy it, then whatever happens at the end, you're gonna enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah, and you're more likely to be engrossed in it and then do well. Yeah. Rather than just teaching um as a pupil, just being there ready to listen and then recurgitate facts and figures or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, because you'd rem you might remember it long enough to get through the exam.

unknown 28:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Yeah, if you're lucky.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Not if I've slept. Not if I've slept, yeah. Um so art therapy. So if someone was to come and seek art therapy, one, where would they find it?

SPEAKER_04 28:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

As in would that is it from a referral service or do is it something that may be mentioned to someone at some part apart of going through, maybe not a crisis, but so there's different pathways.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

So you you've got art therapists on the NHS, so you've got like that can be accessed if you're like seeing somebody for any mental health treatment or support through the NHS that can that can happen there, as well as like privately, so and different charities as well. Different I work at I have a freelance organization that I do some freelance for, and then have a job as well where I'm doing like bits bits with that, and then like I offer things like on a private capacity. So for instance, my details would be on my website as well as registered with sort of the BAT, which British Association of Art Therapists directory. So you can input wherever you are in the country, you can like if you went if you just typed in art therapist in that area, it might come up with BAT, like yeah, the British Association of Art Therapy, it might come up with that naturally, and then people that are taking on clients should be able to see that.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

But there are referral systems and things and I guess if people are not aware of it, the only way they're going to become aware of it is by a referral. But could we avoid referral?

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Could we avoid referral? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Because I sort of you know, when we we see more, we see more of what we see, what we what we are, don't we? So like on social media, I just feel like there's art therapists everywhere, and I just think, oh, everyone's talking about art therapy. But other people's algorithms might be like dancing hippos or anything like that, and they might not have a clue. I do I do I do see like I am a little bit obsessed by like Moo Dang the hippo. If you haven't seen him, then that's that's the best antidote for any any worries or anything. Like, yes. I don't know if you might want to introduce my algorithms to oh no, no, but but that's it's so easy for me to just think, oh, it feels like everybody already knows these things, and not then think not then kind of use my voice to talk and shout about art therapy and and do more of that. So that's a nod to me to share more of it because actually, yeah, there's been a couple of times where people sort of go, I don't really know what you do, or go on your Instagram and I don't really know what you do.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

So yeah, it's yeah, I suppose I don't I can't really put my finger on when I've heard about art therapy and whether it's because of the algorithms through the podcast and my own uh speaking about mental health, or because we met a few years ago on a walking like a walking course, or whether it's I've been introduced that through your own stuff. Don't know. Well hopefully we'll boost the exposure by this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Yeah, and there are certain things that I think there's maybe a narrative around what's easier to what's more manageable or what's more manualised. So certain therapeutic approaches are maybe more set, like like you do this, then you do this, then you do this. Whereas art therapy is more of a non-directive approach. So and maybe what maybe we're all artists and we're not very good at doing that manualised bit. We're not very good at doing the uh showing it off sort of thing. Um but yeah, that it's great. Really helps so many people.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Well, some people's art is for the people it's very strange and they wouldn't classify it as ad, wouldn't it? Whereas have you ever been to the tape museum? No. No. Well, some some of the stuff that's there. Like, well, that's not ad to me. How is that even here?

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah, I suppose it does feel very upper, you know, when you see a pile of bricks when it's worth two million pounds and thinking But that's not our tape, is it? No, no, no. But I think that's a part of an that would possibly be an im an impression it could give someone.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

But well everyone interprets things differently, don't they? That's that's that's the point that I was trying to say. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Like the interpretation. And even when they do the art and they create it, they will interpret it differently. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

So art therapy, if I'm right, it doesn't really matter about the end products, does it?

SPEAKER_00 32:30

No, not so much.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

That's the I think that'd be the difference, wouldn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah. I mean it can be really important for people to create something and then resolve resolve is maybe not the right word, but it could come to some sort of finished piece. And because you get artists doing art therapy, and they're then they've made a piece that then encapsulates all of their journey, maybe captures parts of their trauma healing or parts of their like reframing and new meanings that have come from things, but then generally speak and they might be really into it looking a certain way, and part of their process is making those choices about actually I really want it to look to have that part bigger, or I really want to keep that bit black and white to represent that part of my story.

What Sessions Look Like In Practice

SPEAKER_01 33:20

Do they do they uh try to explain that to you once once they have a finished piece or once they come to a conclusion or what what once the session is over, explain to you what what they try to do? Or is this something that it remains a secret?

SPEAKER_00 33:34

I think it depends purely on the individual. Some people create something and don't want to talk about it at the end. If you've got, say, an hour session, they might make something and not want to talk about the end, or they might talk about it and go, oh, actually that might that means that and that means that, that means that. And I suppose what I was saying when I was saying about all these things, it feeling like it's come to something really meaningful might be then them stepping into them their identity as an artist and then going, I've done all this period of art therapy, and in order to anchor in, I suppose the the new, like some of the healing or some of the insights that I've gained, then like this is the piece of art that I've made for that, and it that's showing how much progress I've made, for instance, in like because I think therapy is hard work. Therapy is hard work, and I think that's part of why people might find it quite hard to get started, but yeah, it's just being able to sort of go, now I've now I've created something, and I feel really empowered looking at that and go, look how far I've come. Like last year I couldn't even really scribble, but now I'm kind of looking at that and going, when I look at that, that shows me how far I've come or how those lessons that I've learned and that it's okay to have felt those feelings. There's some very painful emotions and like some people go through like yeah, they're going through hell and back to like with what they what they've experienced sometimes, and they might not really know what to do with it, but looking at things, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:03

I suppose that could be a limiting, limiting factor in it, that people don't want to because they have to because they're facing their memories or what's going on currently. So avoiding it. But I think from my own experience, then avoiding it is probably the worst thing you can do because you suppress things and it manifests itself as other emotions such as anger and yeah, etcetera, etc.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Yeah, it's like pushes it down and then just pops up.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

And feeling bad for feeling bad is is not helpful.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Yeah, this downward spiral that you get into.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Do these sessions that you run you mentioned like a the the potentially like an hour, do they sometimes last longer?

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Is is it definitely timed or can people Yeah, so uh this the kind of traditional in the traditional sense, if you were to suppose maybe like like the therapeutic hour that people talk about, sort of in therapy generally, is that sort of 50 minute time. In in the work that I do, more so in the work that I do online, I allow people flexibility to to do however long they need. So some people might need a shorter amount of time and it's purely about feeling like using art to feel regulated or activate and energize themselves. Sometimes people might want longer. So my my one-to-one packages programs have sort of longer sessions, sort of an hour 90 minutes, and a lot of that is about really allowing people to it's not a fast thing, it's just being present with someone while they are creating. And yeah, there's that flexibility. And I I think that's what I love about being, I suppose, being self-employed rather than doing it within the structure of an organization, that the a structure's helpful. However, me working out what the structure is with the person I'm working with is more helpful.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Do do the people ever come out with the problems, the trauma and trying to talk talk about the the reason why I'm asking is you know, when when we go walking or when you go walking with other people, you know, people just sometimes come out and open up. Do your students open up?

SPEAKER_00 37:03

Yeah, so so it's very much about the talking and art making at the same time. It tends to be a bit of a mixture. So somebody might like say one an example one person that I'm working with that at the moment finds that as soon as she comes, she wants to start making art, and then after she's she's been making art for a little while, she'll maybe have some things to say, or she might come in and say, I don't really know how my week's been. It's like okay, we're gonna make some art, and then she'll be able to talk about it. Whereas other people that I see want to be able to say, This is on my mind, this is on my mind, this is on my mind, and these are the things that I've been thinking about. And I want, okay, well, how might that fit in with do you need does that fit with a theme for making something, or does it fit with do you want to make something and we can talk at the same time? So yeah, it's it's there's no sort of hard and fast rule about it.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

And I think it's good because everyone's different, so you're your individualizes in practice for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Yeah, and I think I probably find that sometimes people want more of a practical approach. They want to maybe it might feel more like make me accountable for something that I'm doing in the week or like give me a bit of coaching about how I'm doing this. So that's where actually having that flexibility and having that combination of creativity and sometimes it's mindset, sometimes it's about just being a really gentle healing. So just feel mixed.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Do you play music while you do that?

SPEAKER_00 38:32

I have done sometimes. I'll play music in like the I do like quite a lot of online workshops, or I'm wanting to do more in-person workshops and events as well, but yeah, music on in the background or yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

Uh I'm just looking at it H H C P C So it's for anyone sort of listening that's thinking art therapy, you know what I mean? It's 'cause I think there's a a lot of misinterpret misinterpretation about therapies and is that a bit woo-woo? But it's all back by science, and this is you know, like you said before, it's from referrals through NHS government.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Yeah, it could be NHS or through sort of the British Association of Art Therapy. If you're in a different country, like like like in America, for instance, there's different pathways for that.

SPEAKER_02 39:14

And and that's yeah, so that would be someone would if someone that gets gets referred to you, would they then go that come from the NHS to you?

SPEAKER_00 39:22

So I the way that I haven't got a pathway from the NHS myself at the moment, but yeah, some like there are art therapists that work in the NHS in different services. It's like, yeah, I worked in a children's mental health service for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Which should give which should give people some reassurance.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

That because you know, I see a lot of things about like walk and talk therapies and stuff just set up by anyone, which are which people are either neither therapists or ne on or professional walking characters and all that, which puts sometimes it can put people off, can't it? So to you know, for that to have that backing of an organization like this, and I suppose if NHS are backing it, um, then there is science behind it.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

And not so much important about the science, but it works even if you didn't know the science. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Yeah, absolutely. And there's a lot more of the sort of social prescribing. Yeah. If you go to your doctors, then social prescribing or sort of behaviour activation tools that people are given. Behaviour activation is about um doing things with discipline that you believe or like you know that's gonna be helpful, even if you don't feel like doing it. So, like, you know, someone that's feeling depressed, someone with depression, anxiety, all of the like different mental health conditions and struggles. Part of the problem is that that things that are helpful are the thing that people struggle with. So having that discipline to do it, discipline to I'm gonna step into go for a walk or listen to some music, put some telly on, go and do my shower, and then add into the art into it, do five minutes of doodling and actually the art sessions with people, somebody might need more structure to literally activate that. Yeah, because it might be too out of reach to do yourself. Like discipline's hard to do if you're not feeling great.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Yeah, I suppose yeah, I mean, I suppose that comes, you know, one of the standout things that shouts out about that is depression, where people maybe can't even get out of bed or anxiety. Um, so if they've took that first step of joining a car, being referred to a course, then you're not they're already breaking that cycle.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Yeah. And like like people might make art in bed. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's no limit to that.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

That you can like catch the lowest hanging fruit, it doesn't need to be like a big painting with loads and loads of materials. You can like sit with like the back of an envelope and pen.

Anxiety, Trauma, And Tiny Breakthroughs

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Yeah, I suppose. Are there any or what what would be the sort of most help is there is there any sort of measurements, statistics of what art therapy would help the most, or it has helped the most, or the most frequent sort of visitors to that to it?

SPEAKER_00 41:58

I think the anxiety is a huge one. There's a there's a lot of evidence about sort of art making and anxiety and confidence boosting, and a lot of the layers underneath that come from as a result of trauma. So, like those like it'd be really healing for trauma because like trauma being like all those residues of trauma residing in the body and being hard to talk about. It might be that whatever's happened traumatically may have happened when somebody was very, very young, didn't have the words for it. So actually, that's there's a sense of that. Um, I think it can be like with anxiety, some people would like people would maybe struggle to to do the thing because it feels too scary. And like going out for a walk or going socializing with whatever it is, that there may be something really huge that just feels too much, and that actually being able to express that can maybe bridge something, but as well, um having building a bit of resilience through the materials and a tolerance of frustration through the materials. So actually, if somebody's maybe starting off thinking, I want to draw something really, really well, like they may be anxious about whether they're gonna get it right or not. So actually, for somebody that's really, really stuck and really struggling, I would be absolutely it's like we've got rubbers, we've got rulers, we've got pencils, we want to help you to access this as best as possible. Whereas then, as somebody's maybe managing that better, if there isn't a rubber there and then that, oh, have you got a rubber? And then they can tolerate there not being a rubber because they might go over the line differently and go, oh, I'm doing like a sketch. I'm doing like lots and lots of little lines to make the line change, then that's an indicator to me. And I can call like nod to them about it. Oh, actually, two weeks ago you'd have been like frantically trying to find a rubber. Now you've drawn that differently. You've drawn, does that feel different? Oh, yeah, actually, um I'm happy just to go with the flow now, I don't mind. So things like that can really give our brains and give somebody's brain proof that they can do something hard. They can do Do something challenging and that they can tolerate uncertainty a little bit. So some like the people that I've worked with, sometimes it's been like really the smallest moves. So those smallest steps can feel like climbing a mountain sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

I suppose they're the breakthroughs, aren't they? You know, rather than and I think uh again we have this thing that we have to make these big leaps.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

Yeah. But if we do these small things and small things and then another small thing, then another small thing, uh it's at least we've done a small thing.

unknown 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Yeah, but if you do plenty of small things, you're exactly it's like the the picture of the ladder, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 44:35

There's there's like a common illustration that's got a ladder and it's got like one ladder one ladder at one side that's got very, very small rungs and then another one that's got massive gaps. And actually if you're going up the ladder, smallest things all at at once, and eventually you get there.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Yeah. Can I ask if you've any knowledge of where sort of art and not so not so much therapy exists in other cultures? Because it's just think where you're saying you've been out to Nepal and you were teaching there. Because I'm just wondering, without going on around for you, is that how we do we restrict art and do our self-limiting beliefs restrict to us practising art, which therefore causes stress when loses out. You know what I mean? Because you know, I've been to I've been to places like Batley where we were talking to a guy and saying, Well, what what happens if uh anyone has mental illness in your in your village? You know, we may have one person and we sit and talk to them because they're not they don't have these limiting beliefs. I mean, they don't all sit at home in private rooms watching TV, they all sit and have community and ch talk about things.

Culture, Play, And Micro Joy

SPEAKER_00 45:35

Yeah. I mean, I can't speak with the sort of conviction and knowledge and evidence and new opinion. Yeah, I I do I think, yeah, in a lot of different cultures there's a lot more flexibility to be creative, there's a lot more sort of colour, maybe in our images, there's maybe different kind of I suppose different religious beliefs and cultural beliefs. There's maybe like more of a allowance for uncertainty and connection. And what you were saying about the kind of the people, the community, we're so isolated nowadays that we see communities and we see this sort of in like different cultures that are just more together. And like for instance, when I was in Nepal, you'd have people going around. We we and they'd learn from us. We would be doing different activities. We did this thing of duck duck goose. So you go around in the circle, duck, duck, duck, duck, goose, and then they run around and chase you. So we changed it, or the children had changed it to Nepalese words, and it was Lamcote Jugo, which is mosquito and leech. And then after just a few days, you'd see around the village there was loads of little circles of people doing this, and it was just lovely because we walk into our school where we were building this thing, and you'd see all these pockets of people sort of on an evening, and just like big groups of of children, and you'd see adults doing it as well. That they were allowing themselves to play. I think that's the difference.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

Yeah, not freedom.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

So it's it's certainly not just about art, certainly not just about dance, but yeah, about freedom and about having fun. It's like so many times when people are oh, you're like feeling really down and depressed, and they beat themselves up about it. But then when you do something that's a bit fun and they start laughing, and you're like, Oh hang on a minute, in that second, that second when we were throwing the ball around and or telling that joke, you weren't depressed in that second. It's not necessarily taking away the whole of everything, but in that moment, so if you've got more micro moments of joy and glimmers that like I'm guilty of this, it's like if I'm feeling rubbish, then I can catastrophize the whole thing, and then it's like the whole I'm rubbish, you're rubbish, everything's all terrible, and but then I'll do something else, it's like come for this podcast, and you're like, Oh, we're having a really nice time now. So, yeah, and then you start to feel more hope and you start to feel more connected to the world and things.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely guilty of the limit and beliefs it's you know I don't have I do have my issues with a written word and technology and stuff like that, but generally doesn't like it when um I'm like I'm shit, I can't do this, this is not for me. But and that at that time that's me ranting at myself. But then we seem to always again is it a cultural thing. We look at our bad bad things, don't we look at what we can't do rather than what we can do.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Yeah. We we often do that, and I think actually when we're called out for doing that and to say say something good about yourself, that can feel really dismissive for a lot of people. I'm telling you that I feel like I'm a bad person, that I feel really guilty, I feel like I I'm unloved, I feel really horrible, and that actually someone giving them oh, you are loved, you're you're great. That's their their intention is probably that we want to reassure them and want to help them to feel better, but actually, what they're then going is you're not actually paying attention to my experience, you're not listening to me, you're not believing me. I feel so bad from this thing, and you're just telling me, like, oh, just you know, be grateful that you've got a roof over your head or something. And it can be really stressful for people to feel that they can that's where the disconnect is. And what I love about the stance of art therapy is that you can create an image and it can change within just a few minutes, just within the session, you can write down the words of I am rubbish, I hate this, or I like and feelings or like express emotions with the types of marks and lines you do, and then it's kind of okay, I'm softening. Now I might think of some new words.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

It's uh it's like a art evolution on a softening.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Yeah. So say if like something is like grabbing grabbing two crayons at the same time and using both crayons at the same time, backwards and forwards, bilateral drawings, it's called. That's helpful to be able to like put like you're putting pressure on onto the the piece of paper, and you're like times when you might lift up and you might might lift back down, or times when you might use your fingers to smudge the chalk or smudge the paint, and then okay, well, all of this is really messy. I'm expressing this mess, but now I'm gonna clean my clean my hands and I'm gonna create something else that feels fresher. How would I like to feel? So some of those things might there's nuances in between with everything, but that message of we you might not be able to shift the thought instantly, or you might shift the thought but feel that there's pressure for it to suddenly be positive.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

I think to draw two circles at the same time with different with both hands, I'd have to have full concentration, you know, right? Yeah. So that would definitely shift my thought away from what I was doing before, which I suppose is a distraction technique, isn't it, as well. I suppose by doing that, this is opening the neural pathways anyway. So you brain to talk to itself, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Yeah. So we've got both sides of the brain. Yeah. Like there's a neuroplasticity because you're doing something new. So that's like forming those new beliefs and ideas that you maybe plant in that seed of possibility. Again, similar to what I was saying about the anxiety, and I I can I can now tolerate not having a rubber or not doing it 100% perfect.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Yeah, I'm just trying to think there because on the E and DR, the eye movement desensitization remedy, you do uh two a bilateral tapping, and this uh this is opening opening the processing between both hemispheres of the brain. So I wonder if it's similar to that.

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Just a thought.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

Yeah, I I think there's lots of things with like with tapping and like there's lots of things with that that that fit in with and you know the sort of somatic healing, like of using your body and at touch, and then because because you're we're not doing anything really deep, but we are. So so it can feel like, oh I'm not really doing anything, all I'm doing, I'm just making a picture, but then some people can really find that useful. Other other people think, well, I'm not I'm not gonna do it until I know all the evidence of it.

Practical Tips And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_02 51:59

So if someone was listening to this and they thought, maybe I'm having a stressful time. Um, should I either one try doing art or two look into art therapy? What are we which which what sort of tips would you give? I suppose it's that for someone to be find that it's useful. Yeah. Because you don't have to you don't have to be referred, you don't have to get to that crisis point where you've been referred, do you, to engage in this? Uh but and you also hopefully I don't want to put you out of work, but you hopefully if you could use a th a a therapy, a self-therapy, yeah, that stops you getting to that stage.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Yeah. So I mean I've it's a big step for people to choose to go and like access therapy. And for some people it's it's similar to say doing some exercises compared to g going to a physiotherapist, can feel like that, that you might try you could do both sort of thing. So yeah, it's purely about are you is it very much about the art or is it that you're wanting to communicate to somebody? And the triangular relationships in art therapy is what's key with that. So you you can really benefit from from both. The model that and the framework that I use, which seems to like the whole point of it is that it's combining that mindset with creativity with art therapy, is called a new pace, and it's about helping people to pause first, take time to pause, and then the pause act create empower. So instead of it feeling that it's it's all about art, it's all about the art therapy, that there's encouragement to have those micro moments of pausing and take those little steps to help you then feel empowered and creating a life that fits for you. So it's it's purely dependent. But like if anyone wants to sort of talk through at what point you might do art therapy or what point you want to um create something yourself, then I'm always open to answer questions and work like that.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Well, I guess it's a good time to ask you how do people get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 54:01

So I have a website called leslieandrew.com and I I probably say my social media profile that I do the most is Instagram. That's leslie underscoreandrew.art dot therapy. And there's other there's other places that I mark, but I think they're the they're probably the main ones. But um yeah, I have my own podcast as well. So I started a little podcast, so that's called A New Pace. So that's around and about. There's different people on that that talking about kind of some of them talking about more things to do with taking time to pause, some it's more about feeling empowered and more in some of their journeys and things, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Um would recommend the book if anyone wants to read about the neurology aspects, and that's your brain on art, how the arts transformers by Susan Oh near. What have a name like that? Max Seymour, is it? And Ida Ross. Have you anything else that you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_00 54:59

I think the main thing is to sort of normalise mental health challenges, emotional challenges, because so many people feel that if they're struggling with stress or if they're struggling like feeling depressed or whatever it is, like experience PTSD or anything, anything, then actually it's nothing to be ashamed about. It's probably stronger. You're probably stronger by talking about it and saying, I've got this going on for me, than pretending that everything's okay. You see so many people pretending to be fine, but they're secretly struggling. So it's just normalizing that had like that experience that you've been through, it makes sense that you're feeling mistrust towards people, it makes sense that you're anxious, it makes sense that you doubt yourself, having experienced that, but then also allowing yourself to make those changes so you don't have to be stuck. You can like a piece of art, can change and transform and have all sorts of meaning, whilst also like like let go of the meaning, you can also make those changes in a way that works for you.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

Yeah, well, thank you very much for coming in and informing us about art therapy. Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Leslie.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 56:13

Very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Thanks for having me. It's been great to join you.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

And if you would like to support us and help us keep the podcast going, then you can go to buyers a coffee or you can click that on our website, whitefoxtalking.com, and look for the little cup. Thank you.