E88: Gaz Mullen - Riding 1,600 Miles for Jamie

He told his brother he felt depressed and suicidal, then added the sentence so many men have been trained to say: “I just need to man up.” Not long after, Jamie was gone. And the people left behind were handed a kind of grief that comes with questions, guilt, anger, and the awful silence of a topic most people still avoid.

We’re joined by Gaz Mullen from West Yorkshire, who’s riding roughly 1,600 miles from Bradford to Benidorm on Jamie’s bike to raise money for Survivors of Bereavement by Suicide (SOBS) and to push suicide prevention conversations into the open. Gaz shares who Jamie was beyond the headlines, why returning to Benidorm matters so much, and what it’s like to carry a loss that can make friends and strangers visibly uncomfortable.

We also get practical about men’s mental health: how stigma shows up when someone says they’re in therapy, why bullying and social media can make young people feel trapped, and what actually helped Gaz stay upright when everything collapsed. We talk medication, the need for follow-up and real support, and why a “magic pill” mindset can leave people alone at the worst moment. Along the way, Gaz explains how training, routine, and purpose can turn raw grief into something survivable, mile by mile.

If you want to support Gaz’s ride, follow his journey, or share this with someone who needs a nudge to speak up, hit play. Subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review so more people who need this conversation can find it.

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Transcript

Welcome And A Quick Warm-Up

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Hello and welcome to the White Fox Talking Podcast. I'm Mark Charlie Valentine, and somewhere online in the world is Seb Hi Charlie. Do you want to know where I am? I can have a guess. Have you been in the have you been in the sauna today?

SPEAKER_01 0:14

No.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

No.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

But I will be tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Ah, okay. Is it one of them totally naked European saunas? They're always like this in Germany. Really? Wow. Can you imagine that over here? No. No. I don't I yeah, and I don't think I'd want to with some of the people I've been in saunas with. Yeah. But that's good. What are you doing in Germany? Visiting my mum and my sister. Excellent. Being a wholesome son and brother. Absolutely. Bit of family time. Bit of family time. It's my journey of sleeping on airport floors last week because of the price of hotels in in uh Geneva. Just because you're tight Yorkshire, man. May maybe a bit of that, yeah. Maybe a bit of that. But yeah, I had like I had nine hours from getting into Geneva to flying out again. I'm like, I'm not paying 150 quid for this hotel. So had a little walk around Geneva. Lovely little city. Nice. Quite expensive. In fact, very expensive. But yeah. Right, shall we get on with today's conversation? Yes. The White Fox Talking Podcast is sponsored by Energy Impact. So welcome to the White Fox Talking

The 1,600-Mile Tribute Ride

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Podcast. Gaz Mullen, how are you? I'm very well, thank you. How are you? I'm good, man. I'm good. Yeah. So you are we've established you're in a Bradford Postcode. You're in West Yorkshire. I am. Beautiful, sunny West Yorkshire. The sun always shines on West Yorkshire, people don't believe it. Would you give us a brief introduction of why you're on the podcast?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah, so as you say, my name's Gaz Mullen, and um this year I'll be riding from Bradford to Benedome on my brother's bike to raise awareness for suicides and money as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Right, okay, because I I I'd already read you doing this for a charity. I wondered why Bradford to Benedome, and then we just spoke about you cycling, so it's your brother actually a brother's bike.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

It is, yeah. So we we lost my brother last year to suicide, and I'm lucky enough after well I figured out a couple of months ago that I'm lucky enough to still have his bike. Now it's the wrong sort of bike, it's a mountain bike, so it's gonna be an extra challenge for me. But yeah, I'm determined and I'm I'll I'll get there. I know I will. How lot how far would that be, Benny uh Bradford to Benny Dom? So I think it's around sixteen hundred miles. I I to be honest, I'm scared to look too much. Right. I'm gonna I'm gonna be averaging around 70 miles a day, I think. So around 130 kilometres a day is what I want to be averaging. Yeah, I'll be setting off. I'm hoping for the 22nd of August, that's my date that I'm aiming for to get there for the 17th of September, which will mark a year since we lost my brother. Right. For me, I just was like, I don't want to be at home feeling miserable, I want to have some sort of self-achievement, sort of, and just try and be a make it a bit more of a positive day.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Yeah, so it is when you've just said it there it sort of puts in perspective that it is quite fresh, this isn't it? Quite quite new. Um definitely. With that in mind, if you know, we should probably say to listeners, you know, if there's anything that might be upsetting, though there might be content that's upsetting. I know when I think of, you know, especially my friends Brett and Simon that took their own lives, you just have them sort of moments.

Who Jamie Was To Everyone

SPEAKER_03 3:25

So do you want to tell us a little bit about your brother, Jeremy?

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, yeah. So he was 28, he was the life and soul of every room. He was a real lad, he was a lad's lad. He had all the all the girls, all the women, he was just to meet him, even up until him passing away, if you'd have met him, you'd have thought this guy just he's got it all. He's got he's good looking, he's confident, he's he's just amazing, and he was the most caring, he was the best big brother, because he'd do anything for me. Um he was always proud of me, which is something that I'm trying to continue to honour as well. As like I try and tell people like as much as I'm trying to spread awareness for suicide and sort of carry on a legacy for him, I don't want him to just be a suicide story. He was obviously a brother, he was a father, um, he was a son, he was loved by literally everyone. Yeah, he was just like I say, the life and soul of every room. You could have easily assumed that he was absolutely fine. You wouldn't have known that he was, you know, battling these demons like a lot of us do. And he unfortunately just lost that battle.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Yeah, I think when when we s when we spoke earlier, I mean it's it's you look at statistics, is it like 19 people a day? Is it something like that? Take their own life in this country. And obviously it's predominantly a male thing as well, and also the biggest killer of males up to the age of 50 now, which is I think it's 45 or 50, which is going up, which sadly. Yeah, but each one of these numbers is not a statistic that we look at at the the daily number, but each one of these is an individual story, and like you say, you've you know, it's your story, it's your parents' story.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

I think for me, I tend to obviously I know about these statistics, and I know that the rates of male suicides are around three times more than the rate of female suicides and stuff. So I know this, but for me as well, I I look at the statistic of my family. You know, there's four of us kids, one out of four of us have lost a life to mental health, and I've seen other members of my family struggle with the mental health. I were one of them people, you never think it's gonna happen to you. You never think you're gonna have to go through something like this or navigate something like this. I look at that, and that's why it's so important to me. And to be honest, it shouldn't have taken me so long to be a bit of an advocate for mental health, but it has taken this like massive wake-up call for me to realise that like something needs to change. I need to try and do my bit and do a bit for my brother as well. And if I can make bring a little bit of positivity or anything to s something that's been so heartbreaking, then I feel like I will have done him proud as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Yeah, I think both beyond said we wouldn't be doing this podcast if we hadn't got lived experience of our own issues with mental wellbeing. Yeah. And the mine's sort of well documented and out there, you know, the pain of struggle a bit. But then to actually turn that into being able to hopefully provide sort of a bit of a light at the end of the tunnel for other people. And I suppose that that I suppose that's what you're doing, yeah?

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Like I say, it shouldn't have taken me this long, really, because I've I've struggled with my own mental health. I feel like when when I was younger, I was always quite in touch with my emotions and I embraced them a bit more. And as I've grown up, I've had this narrative pushed onto me that we need to man up, and that is what I want to change. I don't want young men to have to face things that my brother had to face or that I've had to face or yourselves, do you know what I mean? It's not it's not right and it's important, and I feel like if if I can talk up, I might be able to be a bit of an example and prove to other people that it is also okay to speak up.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

So obviously I'm slightly older than yourself, and my my incident was back in 2000. And it was just that was just the thing then, you know, man the fuck up or go for a few pints. Did you say we're allowed to swear? Yes. Yes, it's not the first time we said it either. No, well, ah sorry. Well, it's one of them things, it's it's it's it sort of saddens me to hear that uh even you know, now 26 years on from my incident, that this is still the sort of narrative, and you as a younger person saying that, and that's what you what you feel. I know when I did a I did a mental health first aid course with one of our previous guests, Kelvin, and he was saying I don't know how they worked out, but they worked out that society's attitude towards mental well-being is at a similar level to what our attitude towards racism was 25 years ago. Yeah. And whether that's changed due to what happened with COVID, you know, a lot of people became more aware, and I think they became more aware because they were struggling with their own mental health. I suppose if you know, we say one in four people this year will struggle with a mental health uh issue. But if you're not one of them one in four, are you really that bothered? Yeah, definitely. You know, it's it's until you experience them sometimes, I suppose, when people do start experiencing bad times, then that's when it can turn into one of these where people take their own life.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's uh it's way too common

Why Men Stay Silent

SPEAKER_00 8:30

as well. Like I say, it's not just my brother. I've I've been there before, I've felt I've been depressed and felt suicidal, and I've watched like my sister, my sister's been through a lot with her own mental health and stuff, and it's just it's so common and it's not talked about enough at all. Like I wish there were better educations within even schools, going back right back to, you know, schools and it's so important, you know. We've all got a mind. We only get one of them, and we can't sometimes help the way that they function, can we? And I think if we were sort of taught better as a at a younger age about like society, you know, it might I'm not sure, maybe it might help change the way some of us think as we grow up a bit, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Yeah, well that's we had Richard Palmer from Three Dads Walking. And I don't know if you know their story where three three dads and all the three n three teenage daughters are taking their own lives, and what's that that's what they're pushing for with papyrus charity, because we do do all these this education in the school system, but there's two hundred school aged pe young people take their own lives each year. Whereas if somebody walked into a school and shot them all, there'd be a big outcry. But because they're taking their lives in separate incidents, then I suppose I mean I've got quite strong strong views with the sort of education and lack of education, because we put all this pressure on young people, and then the pressure on I'm I'm quite happy that I am older because of when I grew up and we had the opportunity to just be a bit feral and playing out and just outside all the time and rather than the pressure that young people are under. And I suppose you know that when you're as a young person, if you're under that stress all the time, it's not going to help someone's mental health, is it? And that that these tools being resilient and you know, being outdoors and exercising more and less processed food and no social media, then that you know that people these days are exposed to that more.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, and I think bullying and stuff within schools as well, it's always been a thing. But I know from my own experience it is it's especially hard now. I was bullied in school and you leave school and you don't escape it because you go home and you get on Instagram or Facebook or whatever and it's uh and it doesn't end and it's it's hard. You go from being a young sort of child to then you go into secondary school and you've got all this pressure and these bullies and this narrative is pushed onto you that you need to man up or act a certain way or do certain things, and realistically we're all just people just trying to live at the end of the day, and we should be allowed to do that as freely as we as we choose without all that being pushed onto us because in the long run it's just gonna cause us more harm than good.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Yeah, definitely. You said earlier that you'd felt that yourself you'd struggled with depression or maybe suicidal thoughts. Can I ask if you got any help with that or any assistance, any interventions?

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, so I'm I'm I'm really lucky me because I've always had very strong supports around me. I like my best friend, we've been best friends since school and stuff, and my mum, she's a therapist and she's always been there for all of us, and she's an amazing mum. And so I've I've been lucky and I've my mum sort of pushed for me to seek support when she's been able to see that I'm struggling myself, and I have been through them times where like at 18 when I'm trying to figure out what I want to do and who I want to be and stuff like that, and it's it gets overwhelming, and all your friends are getting apprenticeships and doing this and doing that and getting into relationships, and you you don't know what you want to do, and it I got I did get really down, and it it were thanks to therapy and stuff that I I sort of got through that, and even up until my brother passed away last September, three years up until that point, I'd been living in Australia and travelling and stuff. Okay, and I'd just started well, not just started, I'd I'd started struggling with my mental health again. I was just feeling really down, I felt lost, like I didn't really know where I wanted to be or what I wanted to be doing and stuff like that. And I'd started running myself actually and just trying to make them positive changes, and then I was living in Perth and I got the phone call from my family to tell me that my brother had passed, and just like that, my whole world then just flipped upside down, and I felt myself on this downward spiral, and I felt like it's hard, quite hard to say to be honest, but I felt like I just wanted to be there with him. Do you know what I mean? I I couldn't imagine life without him, and it's it's only through talking therapies that I've I've managed to really get through it, and now try and um do something a little more positive from a situation that honestly has nearly taken my life as well, to be honest. No, it's very brave to to say that. What has been the hardest part to navigate day to day? Said this to a few people to be honest, like grief by suicide, it's it's like no other. Um you're left with so so many questions, so many regrets, you you know, there's so much self-blame, and you're not only watching yourself you're not trying to only navigate it for yourself, other people navigate it as well, like my family, people who love Jamie, my brother and stuff. Like that that is the hardest part, along with how uncomfortable it makes people. So I've come to realise just how taboo the topic of suicide actually is. People don't even really ask how I am because I think they know that I'm not afraid to turn around and say, I'm not okay. You know, this is a very real part of my life now, and that that's been really difficult to navigate. And like I've had amazing support from a lot of people, but just as a whole, I can tell how uncomfortable it makes people feel when I do talk about it. So you you tend not to, which is now the opposite of what I'm trying to push for. Do you know what I mean? I'm trying to say that it is so important to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah, definitely. It's a funny one, innit? Because we're we're sat here talking about this and wanting to push this, but I think still think, and you'll be now you'll be including in this now that we're still at the forefront

Bullying And Pressure On Young People

SPEAKER_02 14:40

of something of of talking about this and trying to normalise it. And and then that that idea of a stigma around mental health. Yeah. You know, I read somewhere. In fact, I've read a couple of things where one said, if if you know somebody or knew somebody that's taken their own life, you are between four and ten times more likely to take your own life. Yeah. And I once sat in a room where we were in fact we were doing a mental health first aid, and there were I think with the 14 of us in the room, and there was only one person that didn't know somebody that had taken our life.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, so it's very it's very difficult and it it's common, but it's it's some like I say, it's too taboo to talk about still. I do think it is becoming more socially acceptable to say say these things, but we've still got a long way to go. And I mean we've got a long way to go with the system with mental health in general, haven't we? I mean, a brother shouldn't be gone, he should be here. The system failed him to an to an extent, along with a lot of obviously battles that he was he was facing with his mind. Do you mind talking about that? No, no, no, not at all. So what sort of issues do you think Jamie was having? So one thing that I know he did do about two weeks before he passed, he went to the doctors and told them that he'd been feeling suicidal and depressed and etc. And they gave him um they prescribed him some antidepressants and that were it really. Um there were no sort of follow-up. I know myself because when I came back from Australia and I was struggling, I was really struggling myself, and I went to the doctors and they prescribed me the same antidepressants, and they actually said to me themselves in the first few weeks they'll probably make you feel more suicidal. And to actually be told that after just losing my brother to suicide, knowing that he'd only been on the medication for a couple of weeks, it were hard to hear. And I'm not saying it's not helpful, but I don't believe that you know someone should just go get antidepressants and think that that's gonna be the cure. You need to get support, you need to be following up daily, and you need to be going to therapy and etc. There's it's so much more deep rooted than just getting antidepressants, and that'll be the end of your problems, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

I mean it baffles me that your brother went to the doctors and they didn't do a follow-up. It was potentially maybe his only or one of his cry for helps. If someone does that, why does not someone step up and have a little phone call you know the next day? How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 17:13

I um I also know that he went to I don't know where it was, but it was in it was in Bradford and it was basically support for it was it was reaching out, he wanted some therapy and he was reaching out and they basically turned him away and we believe that it's because they knew that he was suicidal and they didn't want it to be on their watch. Okay. Um so they basically turned him away and he ended up paying for some therapy, and it j but I f it it was just too far gone. I just think it by this point he'd he'd made his peace with what he was gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

It sounds like you and Jamie were quite close up from what you were saying.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Um Yeah. Growing up we we obviously were normal brothers, we fought a lot and and whatnot, but then as sort of as I turned eighteen, we grew really close, really, and we still fought a lot as brothers doing, but like you took me to Benedome after I turned 18, hence why I'm riding to Benedome because I've got very fond memories there now. We went to Ironappa together. It were just before he passed away. I were planning on going to Bali over his birthday, and he was gonna fly out to meet me there and stuff. So we were really close, and like I spoke to him the day before he died, and he'd actually said to me, and this is part of my guilt and a part of my grief that I'm I'm still sort of dealing with and coming to terms with, and he'd actually said to me, I'm feeling depressed, I'm feeling suicidal, and he he followed up from that with, but I just need a man up. And I said I said to him myself, I said, if there's anyone who's gonna tell you to not man up, it's me. I said, Never say that to me again. I know that I I tried to do what I could, I was at the other side of the world, and I I did try to say

Help That Works Beyond A Prescription

SPEAKER_00 18:55

I tried to be there for him, I guess, but like I say, it was the day before he passed away, and I I gen I think he'd made his peace with what he was gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Oh dear, do you know what as you're talking there, it brings back so a few memories of me talking to friends, you know, and then yeah, you know, and as you say, they've they've already sort of made the piece on what we're gonna do. Yeah. And I think we we had that with Adam Smith as well. He'd really uh like uh in the early days of when we were doing the podcast, one of the guests that would come on who'd was battling, battling with his thoughts and then was absolutely fine because he'd made his piece, he already had this plan in the in the in the mind. So it's a common thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Um I believe. I think this is something I else that I want to try and like raise awareness with is the signs that someone might be struggling with the mental health. That withdrawal from sort of the disconnection. If someone goes from being really in crisis almost to then very calm, that's a big you need to look out for that, do you know what I mean? Because that's a big sign, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Um I think it's very sort of telling what you've s what you said just before that about being at going to the doctors, getting these antidepressants. From my own experience with the antidepressants all them years ago, was that they just made me feel like I was carrying a wet blanket around. Uh and I actually stopped taking them because there's no there's no ups or downs, it's just uh it's like uh you feel like you're in a like a fuzz, you know, like a just a haze all the time. You know, for for what the doctor said to yourself that they might make you feel worse slightly better. Then there's got to be surely that's wrong. You know, if we're gonna give someone's feeling bad and we're gonna give them something that's gonna make them feel worse for a bit. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

And it is very difficult, and I I won't I wouldn't want to say that the the don't help. Truthfully, I'm still on antidepressants now, and I you know, there have been days where I've missed them and I've realised after and sort of oh well were actually, but maybe that's in my head. I'm not sure. I wouldn't like to say the do or don't work because I haven't got really enough experience with them myself. But I do think it is so important that if you are feeling a certain them that way and you're having certain thoughts and whatever, if you're gonna go to the doctors that it's not just antidepressants that is the answer. Do you know what I mean? Like you need proper support, proper therapies and yeah, I suppose that it's is it people going to the doctors and expecting this magic pill?

SPEAKER_02 21:12

And it's not a magic pill, is it? It's something that can maybe take the edge off it or take the edge off some emotions, yeah, some some reactions in the brain, but there's there's other interventions or other things that that people do. What can I ask you personally, if you you've just said uh that you've taken antidepressors, what else would you sort of recommend for anyone? Yeah, I mean, I d and this is obviously this is an individual thing, but Yeah, of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

This this it like like I said, when I came back from Australia I was on a downward spiral. I saw myself I was starting to drink too much and smoking and and I was just not good. I were barely eating, I'd lost a lot of weight, I were going down a bad road and something snapped in my in my brain and I thought I've gotta l now live For me and Jamie, do you know what I mean? And I promised him I'd make him proud. I promised him. And I I intend to honour that promise. And the things that have got me through, one is therapy. I've been going to therapy now for probably about eight months, every single week. It's really as I know that I've come a long way. I'm discovering stuff about myself that go right back to my childhood. It's so important. Talking therapies. Also the gym, staying active. I've obviously started riding now, training for my bike rides to Benadarm. Yeah, it's just just have that distraction. They're the sort of things that have got me through personally. And with the therapy, this is why so the charity I'm raising money for is um survivors of bereavement by suicide. Because it's important to me to raise awareness for suicide as a whole, but um I also want to try and help support those impacted by suicide, knowing myself what it's like. I've been lucky enough to be able to afford to pay for private therapy and not wait, be put on a waiting list. Um but a lot of people are are don't have that privilege, do you know what I mean? It's it's just it's important, it's a lifeline like um to know that you're just not alone sometimes. There are other people going through what you you're going through as well. So yeah, that's why I'm raising money for that particular charity as well. Hopefully I can help support those affected.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Yeah, I don't know what's your personal opinion. If you talk to somebody and you say that you're doing therapy, because I I've been I my first my first therapy back in 2000 was a talking therapy with a counsellor that lasted six months. And then a couple of years ago, because there were still issues, then I was encouraged to go back into therapy or go into therapy and and I've done some uh thing called eye movement desensitization remedy because my experience was trauma, but then when you tell people that you're in therapy, this is another you know, why what's that for? You know, this this other thing of uh I think there's a bit of a stigma attached to that. Whereas if you're hobbling round because you've damaged your knee playing football, there's there's no st there's no stigma attached to that. But if there's something going on with the mind and it is oh the m sorry, the brain, then you know, it is it is basically it's very similar, isn't it? Is it you know something's going wrong there?

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Yeah, and uh to be honest, my opinion of any type of therapies, I think it's just your personal um sort of preference. I like my my brother, my oldest brother, he wouldn't really go to just a talking therapy, it wouldn't be for him. I know that I I can I know myself he said it, but I know myself it wouldn't really be beneficial to him. But there are different, like you say, there are different types of therapies. It just doesn't have to be just talking therapies, and there's support groups, there's Andy's Man Club, and these there's all loads of different support out there, you've got to look for it, but there is there is stuff out there, um, and it's just finding what works for you. Sometimes that one-on-one conversation with someone it doesn't work for some people. It does for me. That's my personal preference.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

The charity, Survivors of Bereavement, how much contact have you had with them before I did that? Have they helped you on this?

SPEAKER_00 25:10

I've been lucky enough to pay for private therapy, but I did reach out to them. I didn't really know which charity to go for. I didn't know whether to go for one like Mind or um Samaritans or I didn't know I wasn't sure. Um and I did a bit of research and stuff, and I just uh I resonated with this charity because of my own experience and I reached out to them and they were really supportive and they've said that the I haven't followed up really. I should have. They did say they'd help me where they can and stuff, so they've been they have been really supportive and I know they're a good charity. I know people who have been to the the support groups and stuff like that, the different things that they offer. And I know that they're solely run on donations, they've got no government funding at all, so it were like most of these places. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, I mean the reason I ask that is because having been in a similar situation not with a family member but with with really good friends and my friend Brett in particular when he took his own line because he was struggling with PTSD, having served in the in the forces and then being let down by the by lem let down by the follow-up from the government, which I think they should take responsibility for people that have served the country. But that it was it was one of these things where because he had PTSD, it was sort of half expected, you know, and it were as we when we spoke before we started recording, he escaped his demons, but that didn't help those around him. And you can see how the the family really struggled, I really struggled. It's difficult, isn't it? Because you've got someone in a position where they think the only way out is to take their own lives. But then the people that are left behind are also left carrying that burden, and then it the it weighs on your mind. And I've I've I openly admit, Sevnos this, that I've you know, suicidal thoughts. But then you find out that actually that's normal. It's quite normal if you know somebody that has taken their own life.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

I once saw someone say when someone takes their own life, they're not ending the pain, they're passing it on. And I know it's not the same sort of pain, but I I've felt that when I heard it, I felt it because I've never experienced pain like what I've felt in the past year, and I know it's the same for the rest of my family. It's been it has been unbelievably difficult, and I'm so proud of my family, um lucky because I feel like there were two ways that we could have gone after this like heart heartbreaking thing that has happened to us all. And all of us have found the willpower within ourselves to take the right path and try and do some good from such a horrible situation. But I know that there

Grief By Suicide And Coping

SPEAKER_00 27:50

are a lot of families out there who can't help but take that other path. You know, it is it's so painful, it is so hard to come to terms with and accept. And that pain don't leave, it doesn't it don't leave. Obviously, you know yourselves you've mentioned that you've lost um friends to suicide and etc. And it it don't it don't leave. Um you it's just learning to accept and it's learning to accept that there's no sole responsibility for what happened. It were a a mixture of a lot of things I know that were going on for Jamie that caused caused him to do what he did. And it's about learning to accept that I'm not to blame, my family's not to blame, partners aren't to blame, friends aren't to blame, it's it's it's about trying to bring some hope, I guess, and like I say, a little bit of positivity and changing changing that narrative of um well it's this person's fault or it's that person's fault and making it more like, well, I can't change what's happened, but maybe I can do a bit of good from it. Do you think that focusing on the spy crime actually helps you with the grief? 100%. A lot of my friends and family and etc. would say that I've probably taken too much on this year. Like I've started um I started uh an electrical course training to be an electrician, I've been trying to juggle the gym and work and um now the bike ride as well, and it's probably too much, but it's my way of coping. I need to be busy, I need to keep my mind busy. Not too busy, I'm aware that I don't want to burn myself out, but especially with this bike ride, because I know who I'm doing it for and why I'm doing it, it's a a massive help for me processing my my grief, I guess, and channelling it a bit better. When I'm out on the bike, you know, I'm I can be going up a hill and you get angry almost, and I'm channelling that anger into peddling harder to get up that hill. Yeah, I just are you doing it on your own? So I'm I'm well, I'm setting off on my own, and then my best friend he's gonna fly down to Bordeaux in France um and do sort of the second half with me. I'm well I'm convincing him. I'm not fully there yet, but I'm convincing him. He doesn't know. No, he's I can't I try I was trying to get him to do the full thing with me, and I he was like, Oh, it's a big commitment, and I think he wants it to be like my thing, but I'm I'm getting now, I'm I'm wearing him down.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Can I just can I just go back to something you just said then about the this thing about getting angry and blame, and then we'll go back onto the bike ride, I think. But this you know, I think you're perfectly right what you say there, uh that you that people when you've lost somebody, then you do start to look for blame. And that sort of manifests itself as anger and then also self-doubt, doesn't it? Which I think personally does. You know, it's could could I have done something, could somebody else have done something? This should have happened. And we and that yeah, and that blame there. I think I've done well, I've done it myself, definitely. Um with the running now for the podcast, that takes my mind off other things, whereas if I'm thinking about them things, I just end up drinking or something like that, you know what I mean? And wallowing in that that hole of self-pity. So, like you say, there's these two different directions that you can go. So, you know, probably keeping yourself busy and this the bike ride would be it's you know, it's a self-care project as well, isn't it? If you don't mind me saying that.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

No, definitely. It's it's obvious I it's I could be drinking like loads or smoking or doing whatever. And it's even though I'm doing it for charity and stuff, it's it's a beneficial thing for my for my own health, like to say. So I'm keeping myself like healthy and keeping my mind healthy as well, or as healthy as I can. But yeah, no, it is I think it is important to just like find them methods of coping. Channel it just being able to channel that anger and um that sadness into more beneficial things, I guess. It's it is important during go when you're going through grief by suicide.

SPEAKER_02 32:00

So these little two these two little birds on the shoulder, isn't it? You know, the the two little devils, the good devil and the bad devil, and the bad devil the bad devil's telling you to go out and have ten pints and the good and the good devil's saying go for a r go for a run or go for a run or go for a bike.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Yeah, the thing for me at the minute is I'm finding that sort of happy medium because I'm getting out on the bike and I'm going to the gym and I'm doing my college course and I'm doing all this stuff, but I'm also trying to make the time to um go see my friends and maybe go for a drink or do them things because it's it's important to have a bit of normality in your life as well. Like I can't just constantly be thinking of the bike ride because that means I'm constantly thinking about the fact that my brother's not here, do you know what I mean? Um but you have got to try and have that bit of normality. Um and I know it's the same for my family as well. Like my mum, she's amazing. She's trying to keep the best routine that she can with certain things that she does in her life. It is important. Can I just ask you the bike ride? You're going to

Benidorm Meaning And Ride Logistics

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Benny Dome? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Yeah. Why b why Benny Dome?

SPEAKER_00 33:04

So, like I mentioned before, when I was 18, I wanted to just go on holiday, and I mentioned that to my brother. I work because I used to work with um Jamie for a long time, um pretty much until I went to Australia. But so we spoke a lot and stuff, and I said that I wanted to go on like a holiday, and he was like, Oh well, I'm going to Benadome with my friends if you want to come. So I was like, Do you know what? Fuck it, why not? So I booked a ticket and and it was the most eventful holiday I've ever been on in my life. But just kept me on my toes the entire time. Because even from just being on the plane, he were messing around with one of his mates and got into trouble with a cabin crew, and um we landed in Alicante and the police were waiting for us to c get off the plane. Luckily they just gave him a slap on the wrist and we we carried on, but it just that just sums him up. That's just how he was. He just the most like boisterous person ever. So yeah, I just I haven't been back since. Um and like I say, I didn't want to be I didn't want to spend um the anniversary of his death sort of depressed and feeling shitty at home. I thought, what better place to spend it than raising a glass frame in a place that I know he loved and a place that I love from happy memories that we we share from there. Um yeah, it was But my brother to put him into perspective, it was like that person boisterous and loud and energetic, but he was so caring. Like when we were in Benedome, there were one particular night we'd been on a on a night eye night out, and I went home um to bed and I'm a very, very deep sleeper. And my brother's come back a few hours later and tried knocking on the door to wake me up, and he were he were knocking and knocking and screaming and I wouldn't wake up, and he thought something had happened to me, and he was like, he did whatever he could to get in that door, he ended up um finding a cleaner, getting a key card, and getting in that way, but he would just he was so worried about me and stuff, and that was just him like boisterous and rebellious, but also just caring and and loving and just wanted to look out for anyone and everyone. Well, like you say, it's gonna be a bit of a bit of a journey, that, yeah. How many days? Um so 22nd of August to 17th of September, so I'm not sure how many days, but just under a month I'm I'm giving myself. Um it's probably a bit uh ambitious, but I mean I know I'll do it.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Is that every day in the saddle? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No reason.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

I'm hoping I'm hoping I might have time to sort of give myself a day here and there to to recover, but if not, I mean I'll just push through it. I did I've got a friend that lives in Chesterfield, and that's gonna be my first stop. So I did that bike ride a couple of weeks back from my mum's to there, and I think it were about 85 miles that I did, and it was hard and it was difficult, probably the hardest thing I've ever put my body through, but I did it and I'm that proved to myself that I can do it and I will do it. Yeah, and you you're doing it on a mountain bike as well. Have you put slick tires on? Nah, so at the minute I'm training, I'm training on the tires that are on because it's it makes it harder for me. But when when I set off, I'm gonna get some proper I'm gonna get gravel tires on it, I think, and try and do what I can to give myself the best best shot at what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Train hard and fight easy. Yeah, that's it, yeah. Yeah, and what are you gonna do about like overnight stays and things?

SPEAKER_00 36:43

So uh I'm lucky as well in the sense because my dad's um got a van, it was actually my brother's van. So he's gonna drive down just ahead of me, uh keep me topped up with water and stuff, and um like it can drive twenty miles or whatever, meet me and then drive do you know what I mean? And then do somewhere for me to keep the bike on a night as well. So I think we're planning on taking a tent, but we're also gonna do a night here and there in a hotel and Airbnb and whatever, because I think after cycling all that distance, I'm gonna need a couple of nights in a proper bed.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Yeah, you'll probably need somewhere to somewhere soft to sit down as well, I would imagine. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. When we first chatting about it earlier on about the challenge, I'm like, oh my god, are you doing this on you know, self-supported and and roughing it, which we do which we do here about. We've had people that, you know, we had Trevor that rode his bike from well, he rode all the way, wasn't he? So yeah, Ushwi to Alaska. So that I don't I don't know what it's that's in our it might be a decent podcast for you to listen to. Yeah. I don't know what episode is it. It's with it's within our first twenty. And he and he's got a book called Road to Alaska. If you listen to audiobooks. I'm a while off of that sort of journey, but maybe after I've done this one. Can I ask you before we start wrapping up, is there anything else you would like to sort of tell us that could help anyone else, or just sort of dedication to Jamie?

SPEAKER_00 38:12

I just want to sort of like I say, be be an example. Like I'm not I'm not I've never been much of a public speaker to be honest. I'm not a particularly confident person, unlike Jamie was. Um so I just want to prove to people that sort of if I can like do stuff like this with you guys and and make stupid videos of me riding a bike and stuff like that, and sort of be vulnerable at the same time that you know other people hopefully I might be an example to other people that it's actually okay to to speak up and and you know get the help that you need sometimes. Like it's it is important. Finding that the right therapy for you is is important. Just talking, just just get it out, even if it's on a podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Well, I was just thinking then, you know, I'm hoping that uh we had Bailey on as well, Bailey Backhouse, young person who did the Yorkshire Three Peaks three times in three days, and I think it's I think it's brilliant when people a bit younger than myself, just a couple of years, because you're the gen yeah, you you you guys are the people that want to be talking to your generation because me talking or even though Seb's well most people are younger than me now, but it sounds sometimes it's like we're trying to push our narrative, our advice, but what do we know about your lives now? Because I'm I'd I would reckon a good nearly 30 years older than yourself, you know. I mean, even though I've gone through my own bits. Then so thank you for stepping up and coming on. Seb, do you reckon we could do a catch-up while while while he's on the ride?

SPEAKER_01 39:47

We can do a live catch-up, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Yeah. What do you think of that, guys? We could be a good one. And then we can try and sort of push it. You can see me sweat. Sweat and sweat. Sweat, sweat, and sweat, yeah, yeah. I mean, and if we can give give you know, just give you a bit of encouragement and help help you on the way, then that'd be great. We should say as well, this is your first ever podcast, isn't it? It is, yeah. First time doing anything like that. Brilliant. So thank you for coming on and uh thank thank you for having me, guys.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Don't go yet. Guys,

How To Support And Closing

SPEAKER_01 40:20

how can people support you and the charity that you've chosen? Because this is really important.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

Yeah, so you can follow my Instagram to follow along on the journey. I on there there's also a link to the GoFundMe where you can donate to survivors of buryment by suicide. Yeah, I'm like I say, I'm trying to I'm gonna try and make as many videos and vlogs, if you would, um, as I can to document the journey and yeah, it should be quite funny to be honest, because I am in way over my head.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

I'm sure you'll be fine, and hopefully if when we put this out, I suppose if anyone get wanted to get in touch, what's your Instagram? Is it tag handle whatever it is? Yeah, at G underscore M U11 E N. Right. Well, shall we put that on the bottom of the We'll put that to the bottom of the podcast? When I s when we say we, Set will do that. Because one I wouldn't know. Tech guy, because I won't I won't be able to uh I won't be able to add it and I'd probably misspell it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

But at least I mean up. So one last question for you. When you cross that finish line in Benningham, what do you think or what do you hope Jamie would be most proud of? The miles, the money raised, or the conversation that this might might actually start.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

I think yeah, the conversation, um I know it'd be important to him because it's important to me. Do you know what I mean? And I just know that he wouldn't want anyone else to suffer the way that he he did as well. And I think that's actually what's probably gonna spur me on on the whole journey, knowing that I'm doing it for him. Brilliant. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

Thank you for coming on, mate. Thank you to thank you for Dante's uh getting in touch with us and bringing you to our bringing you and the project to our attention, and hopefully, you know, just by putting this out there, we can get you some support. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. You're welcome. Right, you take care, buddy. Look after yourself.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Thank you. And if you'd like to support us and help us keep the podcast going, then you can go to buy us a coffee or you can click that on our website, whitefoxtalking.com, and look for the little com. Thank you.