How to Use Your Book to Build Authority and Charge What You’re Worth - BM528

Are you undercharging without realizing it?

What if the biggest thing standing between you and higher-value clients has less to do with talent and more to do with how you see your own expertise?

In this eye-opening conversation, business advisor and author John Ray challenges some common assumptions about pricing, generosity, confidence, and the role your book should play in growing your business.

If you’ve ever questioned your value, struggled to price your services, or wondered why your book is not creating bigger opportunities, this episode may shift how you think about expertise altogether.

Key Takeaways

Are You Being Too Generous?
Why giving more is not always the smartest move and what actually builds trust with clients.

The Pricing Mistake That Quietly Hurts Credibility
What your fees may be signaling about your value and why cheaper rarely wins.

Why Smart Experts Still Feel Like Frauds
A simple mindset shift that can quiet self-doubt and help you own your expertise.

Is Your Book Working Hard Enough?
Why your book should open doors, spark conversations, and lead to bigger opportunities.

The Small Shift That Makes Clients Say Yes
How changing the focus from you to them can transform proposals, conversations, and results.

If pricing feels awkward, confidence feels shaky, or your book is sitting on the sidelines instead of opening doors, you’ll want to tune into this powerful conversation.

Your free gift from John: The Red Flags of Inadequate Pricing, a one-page diagnostic that will help service providers assess whether they are laboring with inadequate pricing.

Here's how to connect with John:

Website

LinkedIn

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Transcript

Susan Friedmann [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Book Marketing Mentors, the weekly podcast where you learn proven strategies, tools, ideas and tips from the masters. Every week I introduce you to a marketing master who will share their expertise to help you market and sell more books. 

Today, my special guest is John Ray. John works with consultants, coaches, attorneys, fractional executives, and other professionals who sell expertise. He helps them diagnose and express their value, price accordingly, and build business through trust, not pressure. He's the author of the five star rated book the Generosity Mindset, which redefines generosity as a professional asset, not as giving everything away. 

John, what an absolute pleasure it is to welcome you to the show and thank you for being this week's guest, expert, and mentor.

John Ray [00:00:55]:
Thank you, Susan. I'm delighted to be on your show. I'm a big fan of it. I listen to it all the time and I've learned a lot from it and from you, and I'm delighted to be on. So thank you for inviting me.

Susan Friedmann [00:01:06]:
Well, I'm thrilled that you're here. And only a few weeks ago you were interviewing me. So we're turning the tables around, which I always love. One of the things that I always find with my authors is that they've done the work, they've got their expertise, and then when it comes to pricing, something holds them back. What's that about? Why is it that we have such a hard time pricing ourselves our services? And I've been through this, so I'm interested to hear what you have to say about that.

John Ray [00:01:47]:
Well, guess what? I have too. That's why I'm passionate about it. I had the same problem. And I came out of corporate, thought that I knew a whole lot about business, and I did. But I didn't know how to price my work. As a business advisor, I didn't know how to price my expertise. And I found that a lot of my clients didn't know as well. And so that's what got me passionate about this subject and led to ultimately writing the book.

John Ray [00:02:15]:
But to answer your question, here's the issue. The issue is that I liken it to bad next door neighbors. We've got our expertise that lives right between our ears. And the bad next door neighbor are the mindsets that hold us back. The mindsets of things like imposter syndrome, the mindset of comparison, the mindset of inadequacy. I'm just not good enough. The mindset of helping. I want to help everyone.

John Ray [00:02:43]:
I mean, those mindsets hold us back when it comes to understanding our value and pricing to that value.

Susan Friedmann [00:02:51]:
We're Going to dig down deeper into that. I'm checking all those boxes as you listed them. I'm like, okay, been there, done that, got the T shirt. And it's taken many years, especially the imposter syndrome, which I didn't realize was a thing until I found a book many, many years ago called the Imposter Syndrome. And I was like, oh, my goodness. You mean other people have this issue? It's not just me.

John Ray [00:03:19]:
Yeah, well, you know, there's a certain amount of imposter syndrome that's healthy, just a certain amount, because it shows that we're pushing. Right. That we're expanding our horizons. But too much of it holds us back. I mean, I mean, when we're constantly thinking we're going to get found out because we're frauds, that we're doing something that we shouldn't be doing, naturally, that's going to affect how we think about our value and how we price that value.

Susan Friedmann [00:03:47]:
Yes. And, I mean, there are lots of famous artists who go through this. I mean, Oprah Winfrey herself has even admitted to it. And I think Meryl Streep and some of the greats in the business. And yet they do it despite that.

John Ray [00:04:04]:
Yes.

Susan Friedmann [00:04:05]:
So when a client comes to you and you identify some of these mindset obstacles, how do you go about helping them overcome that?

John Ray [00:04:16]:
Well, here's the good news. The good news, it's not about what we think. It's about what clients think. See, clients are the ones that write the checks. Right. We don't. What we have to lean into is understanding the value that clients see in our work. And the only way we can do that is to have effective value conversations with them.

John Ray [00:04:37]:
Value conversations that help uncover where they see value and their anxieties, fears, hopes, dreams, what they're looking for to make their lives better and the value that they see in that transformation. And when we understand that, that has enormous value to them, and that value is much greater than the value that we see. And this is the big, hairy, audacious idea in my book, you might say, is that clients see more value in us than we see ourselves. And so once you understand that and lean on that, it's not about what we think about ourselves, it's about what clients think about us and leaning into that value and pricing to that value.

Susan Friedmann [00:05:23]:
Yeah. And that's a really hard one, especially when you're first starting out. And as I told you before we went on the air, I remember when I started out in the training business, I thought, well, let me price my Services lower than my competitors, and I was quite dramatically lower. And I didn't get business. And I was like, I wonder why? And then when I discovered, I was like, oh, when it comes to training, people don't want cheap. In fact, they'd rather pay over because they're thinking, if I pay more, I'm going to get more. So address that if you can.

John Ray [00:06:09]:
Oh, wow, that's a great one. Here's a great example. I was driving. I'm in Alpharetta, just north of Atlanta. I was driving down the street the other day, and there's some vendor out with a truck selling 20 ribeyes for $40, $2 rib eyes. Who knew? I mean, now when you see that sign, what do you think? There's something wrong. Something wrong with those rib eyes. Right.

John Ray [00:06:32]:
The same thing happens when we try to discount our way into attracting clients. They look at the price sometimes and they think there's something wrong with that. It's too good to be true. There's no way that John can deliver those services at that kind of price. It's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for transformation. I'm not looking for a bargain basement experience. I'm looking for something that's going to work.

John Ray [00:06:58]:
That's why you have to understand pricing is a marketing signal. It's a signal of both quality and it's a signal of inferiority.

Susan Friedmann [00:07:07]:
I'd never thought about that, but that is dramatic. Very much so. So keep going with that thought because I like it a lot and I think our listeners will, too.

John Ray [00:07:19]:
Well, this is why we have to reframe. The way we think about how we get to price is that price and value always need to be paired. And the way to pair that is to understand that it's all about client perceived value. It's not about the value we see or how we define it. It's about how clients define it. And clients are looking at what is the value of the outcome, what's the value of the transformation that I expect to receive here? And if we are having enough conversations with clients to understand that, and those conversations go deep, by the way. If we're having enough conversations with clients to understand that, then we can speak to those needs, hopes, wants, desires, fears, anxieties and trust grows, and our ability to price more effectively grows as well.

Susan Friedmann [00:08:14]:
Yeah, And I found that over the years, I feel comfortable raising my price a little bit more and a little bit more, and I believe that I'm worth it. But it's taken a while to get to that point. And I didn't go from 0 to 100 just like that. I mean, I had to do it incrementally. Is this the kind of advice you give your clients? How do you talk to them about that pricing? I mean, because they've got to start somewhere and it's like where do you start?

John Ray [00:08:50]:
Yeah, that's a great question. The where I start with is don't start with the price. Let's start with what clients say about you. I mean one of the things that I start with is I pull reviews and testimonials and let's look at what clients say about you. And what they say are a lot of things that they point to are intangibles. Susan makes me feel comfortable. Susan explains complex topics in a way that I can understand. Her work helps me sleep at night.

John Ray [00:09:23]:
I don't have to worry about it anymore. These are intangibles that have tremendous value to that person. They're unique to that person. When you see that, it kind of removes the scales from your eyes in terms of how to define value. Because it's not just in the deliverable. Because there's a lot of folks out there that can be a business advisor or a coach or a consultant. There's tons of people that can do that. There's only one Susan that can deliver peace of mind and deliver your service in the unique way that you do it.

John Ray [00:10:02]:
And so that's where I start is identifying intangibles that show up again and again in how someone works with their clients.

Susan Friedmann [00:10:11]:
And that's so important and you're right how somebody else looks at that. Is it going to be worth it for me to invest X thousand dollars in working with John? Susan, whomever it's thinking that. And we get so wrapped up in our self. And I think this is what I'm hearing from you is that and this happens so often that we come so self centered about it that we don't look at what other people think. And that's where you're turning the tables and saying hey, you look at it from their point of view in terms of would they feel that hiring you would be worth X number of dollars?

John Ray [00:10:56]:
Yes. See, it's not about us. And that's a good thing. I'm not saying that to demeanor our work at all. What I'm saying the exact opposite is that if we have what I call a generosity mindset, what that means is getting out of our own heads and getting into the heads of others and where they see of value and when we do that, it changes everything about our business. I mean, let me give you an example. You know, I was in corporate, big ugly bank, and we used to deliver these presentations that was more about us than it was the client. I mean, page after page after page of this beautiful PowerPoint about us.

John Ray [00:11:38]:
And I'm a big believer in when I deliver a proposal, I'm talking about that client. I don't have anything about my credentials in there. I don't have anything about me. I don't have my photos, I don't have my book. I don't have any of that. Because if I'm having to talk about that at that point, something's wrong. That proposal is all about them. It's the situation that they're in, the context they find themselves, what I'm seeing and the options that I recommend for them.

John Ray [00:12:10]:
And that kind of mindset change changes everything about your business development and ultimately your pricing.

Susan Friedmann [00:12:18]:
That was a great segue into talking about your book, because the generosity mindset, it speaks volumes. So you're giving us a lot of your philosophy, the concepts that you teach. One of the things that I find with authors is that they're reluctant to give stuff away. Now, what's the difference between that generosity of giving stuff away versus not keeping it all to yourself? Do you come across that?

John Ray [00:12:51]:
Oh, only all the time.

Susan Friedmann [00:12:53]:
Only all the time. It was a bit of a rhetorical question.

John Ray [00:12:57]:
I know that's right. Well, it comes up for all of us, right? And I'm not saying don't ever give anything away, but, you know, what I am saying is be strategic about it. The important thing is that you have a sustainable business. And to have a sustainable business, you have to price effectively. This is just a business basic that a lot of us had just never absorbed because we never been taught that pricing is really important aspect of this. If you are in a mindset where you're giving too much away, then if everything's free, then you're sending a signal of inferiority. Back to what we were talking about earlier. That said, I think it's really important for service providers to share their knowledge.

John Ray [00:13:48]:
I share a whole lot on LinkedIn and on my blog and what have you in terms of teaching, because the truth of the matter is that that's how I build trust. People need to see that and see how you think and see how you do what you do. It's why I have a podcast. People hear you and they see what you do. That generosity of giving knowledge actually comes back to benefit you. Over the long haul. So there's a balance here.

Susan Friedmann [00:14:18]:
Yeah. I had a, a mentor many years ago and he said that the mentality often is, if you're giving this away, what is she going to give me if I pay for her? It's like this thinking, okay, so she's willing to give this away, but hey, what do I pay for? So, yes, talk to us about that.

John Ray [00:14:41]:
Yeah. And I'll just tell the authors out there, here's the way I look at my book. Well, let me back up and just say I'm a big believer in giving options. So good, better, best, good being the basic and best being your premium, kind of Lexus version of what you do. I look at my book as like the lowest option somebody can hire me for. If you can't or don't want to pay to hire me directly, buy the book. Now here's the thing about the book. It's written for a wide audience and it's not going to apply directly to you.

John Ray [00:15:17]:
If you wanted to apply directly to you, I can help you with that. You just have to hire me. That's the way that I think authors ought to think about their book is that their book is really their low priced offering for people that want to engage with them. Does that make sense?

Susan Friedmann [00:15:36]:
It does. And I'm constantly preaching the fact that the book is a tool to help open doors. Its role is to help you get speaking engagements or to help coaching or training or any other products that you want to create from it. But the book is just that, it's not going to do, as you rightly said, it's more of a general approach. But if they want something more specific and tailored to them, which is what people want. I always say, I never offer any kind of cookie cutter with way of doing things. I'm going to work with you based on what you need, not what I would give everybody else.

John Ray [00:16:20]:
Yeah, I mean, I had, I guess about a dozen or so beta readers for my book and one of them hired me after reading the unpublished version of my book. She said, this is so great, I need to hire you. I mean, what better story than that to illustrate that, that the book leads to revenue for people that want to go deeper.

Susan Friedmann [00:16:44]:
Yeah, it's not about selling books. Listeners have heard me, you know. Oh, there she goes again. She said that a dozen times.

John Ray [00:16:51]:
Here goes Susan.

Susan Friedmann [00:16:52]:
Yep. On her soapbox.

John Ray [00:16:55]:
That's right.

Susan Friedmann [00:16:56]:
But yes, it's realizing that, yes, you're not in the business of selling books and that's such a hard one because you have this product and you think you have to go out and sell it, but it's this awareness building, it's authority building, expertise to show the world that you have that and that they're not going to get it just from the book. They're going to get a certain amount of your brilliance from the book. But not everything.

John Ray [00:17:25]:
Yes, absolutely. And here's the thing, this is somewhat of a punchy way to say it, but my book is 200 and I don't know, 15 pages, something like that. If everything I know is in 215 pages, nobody should buy that book. It's just that simple. I mean, the truth of the matter is everyone listening to this podcast that has written a book knows a whole lot more than what's in their book. A whole lot more. They know how to apply it in a lot of different ways in different circumstances. But because not everything got in the book, particularly if you've got a good editor and I had a great one in mind, not everything gets in the book.

John Ray [00:18:06]:
You're not giving everything away by putting it in the book.

Susan Friedmann [00:18:10]:
It's interesting because I literally yesterday had this conversation with somebody about the size of the book and I'm saying you're not writing War and Peace, you're not giving them everything that you have to give. Which is exactly what you're saying because. Yeah, I mean, nobody wants to sit there and read so much. In fact, I just read something last week that said small books are coming into fashion, the sort of 40, 50, 60 page books, because our attention span has gone, we just haven't got it the way we used to. And we can thank the computer, AI, whatever we want to blame for that or thank for that, but the fact is that people have the attention span. There's so much noise out there. So less is more.

John Ray [00:19:01]:
Less is more. Yes. And I just interviewed an author, Ph.D. who just released a 47 page book. And the value of that book, which I gave a five star rating to, is that he attacked a very select topic and you knew exactly what you were getting when you bought that book. You didn't have to go hunt for what he had to say about this particular topic. And so, yes, I can see why these books that are more focused maybe is the word to put on them, are getting more popular. It makes perfect sense to me.

Susan Friedmann [00:19:38]:
Yeah, it does, because you're right, if it's addressing something that's specific and then he could potentially have a series of books on all these little topics that he's just going in depth and that would be brilliant. That would be a brilliant marketing strategy. Absolutely. I love that. In fact. Yes. I mean, if a reader loves an author, they're going to want more from that author. And if you give them everything all at once, it's like giving them a banquet rather than just a meal just to satisfy them for now and then they can come back for more and for more because you've got so much more brilliance to share with them.

John Ray [00:20:25]:
Well, yeah, that's right. And we underestimate how much we have to share sometimes.

Susan Friedmann [00:20:30]:
I think you're right with that. Yes. I mean, we do. I think in all of this, I think if we were to put a theme on this whole conversation is just totally underestimating ourselves, what we can deliver and the value of that. Would you agree with that?

John Ray [00:20:50]:
Absolutely. There's no question about it. And we underestimate it because we keep focused on ourselves and our own self worth. I mean, think about it this way. When did you have a situation, maybe when you're growing up in school or a young adult where someone said something to you about you that you didn't see yourself, you know, where they saw a quality of you that you didn't really think about that, hey, you did such a great job in making that hard to understand situation so easy for people to follow. Or you're so mature beyond your years or some compliment like this. And see, this is a teacher or mentor, a grandparent. Maybe they see more value in us than we see ourselves.

John Ray [00:21:37]:
And the same thing works with clients. And that's why I argue for leaning into that and getting out of what we think and getting into what they see.

Susan Friedmann [00:21:48]:
Yeah. Which is a perfect segue, John, into you telling our listeners more about you and the incredible work that you do with your clients. So take it away.

John Ray [00:22:01]:
Well, thank you, Susan. Yeah, so I work with coaches, consultants, fractional executives, anyone that sells their expertise and has trouble with all the stinking thinking. I guess as the old saying goes, that holds back your pricing, your business development, your positioning that really has caused a person's professionals business to really plateau. And I help folks reposition their thinking and the book is one place to go for that. But also work with clients directly.

Susan Friedmann [00:22:39]:
Perfect. I love that. And I'll put a link to your website and to the book in the show notes. And John, as you know, we always have our guests leave our listeners with a golden nugget. You shared so much already. Have you got a little extra golden nugget you can share?

John Ray [00:23:01]:
Yeah, I think when you make it about others. And you really live into the idea that service is something that is about others and others first. What you find is that the universe has a way of giving back to you. The fun part of life is it comes back in ways you can never imagine to begin with. So if you give freely, make it about others, understand them first, help them in ways that may not help you in the near term, and some of it will, but it always comes back to you and you'll be regarded as a professional of value that people refer to and reach out to frequently.

Susan Friedmann [00:23:49]:
That's beautiful. Yes. And also believing in yourself. I don't think you can survive these days if you don't believe in yourself. But again, as you say, is giving to others but also giving to yourself as well, which is so important.

John Ray [00:24:08]:
So thank you. Thank you.

Susan Friedmann [00:24:10]:
Beautiful wisdom. Thank you so much for sharing. John. It was great to have you here. And listeners, if your book isn't selling the way you wanted or expected it to, let's you and I jump on a quick call together to brainstorm ways to ramp up those sales. Because you've invested a whole lot of time, money and energy and it's time you got the return you were hoping for. So go to bookmarketingbrainstorm.com to schedule your free call. And in the meantime, I hope this powerful interview sparks some ideas and you can use to sell more books.

Until next week, here's wishing you much book and author marketing success.

Your free gift from John: The Red Flags of Inadequate Pricing, a one-page diagnostic that will help service providers assess whether they are laboring with inadequate pricing.

Here's how to connect with John:

Website

LinkedIn