Composable PIM drives ecommerce innovation, w/ Pimberly’s Martin Balaam

Product information management (PIM) has been one of the most dynamic martech categories in recent years. This is thanks to the sheer range of things that can be optimized by getting a better handle on product data: from merchandising, to search, personalization, analytics, order management, seasonal campaigning and more.

Unpacking PIM for us on the latest episode of Martalks was Pimberly founder and CEO, Martin Balaam. Like many founders, Martin’s lived experience of the problems that that his solution solves led to the founding of a highly successful business.

Described modestly as “the little bit in the middle” between various inputs and outputs, Pimberly is now a MACH Alliance-certified solution with a valid claim to being the best-of-breed in its category. The company continues to scale with B2Bs and B2Cs on both sides of the Atlantic.

Read an article based on this conversation at Rosenstein Group.com.

Rosenstein Group: martech & ecommerce executive search

Rosenstein Group is the only martech-specialist exectutive search firm. For over 20 years, we've been matching leadership talent in sales, marketing and customer success to pioneering startups in ecommerce, supply chain and sales enablement, and for digital agencies.

Our experience with recruiting e-commerce technology leaders for companies like SAP Hybris and Demandware has established us as an authoritative and trusted liaison for startups seeking their first sales leader, and scale-ups on their way to IPO.

Visit RosensteinGroup.com to find out more.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Good afternoon. Welcome to Mar Talks. I'm Daryl Rosenstein, your host. Mar Talks is where we discuss contemporary issues in the e-commerce and Martech universe. And today we're joined by the uh esteemed founder of Pimberly, the PIM provider within the Mock Alliance. Martin, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here, and uh I'm looking forward to our discussion.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

First, I just wanted to start off with what does uh Pimberly do in the context of the mock ecosystem and what differentiates it from the legacy PIM solutions that uh are your progenitors?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Quite simply, Pimberly manages everything to do with the digital persona of a product, regardless of whether that's a piece of data like the length of the product or the description of the product, or whether it's a uh a digital asset, whether that everybody thinks about images and videos. But actually, when you talk about more technical products, it might be you know the CAD drawings, it might be the 3D sort of rendered image, etc. It might be test certificates, it might be compliance test data, it could be anything. So, um, and we call that uh unstructured data. So you've got your normal data, which is your descriptions, your length, your dimensions, your weight, your packing, etc. That's your structured data, and then your unstructured data, which is images, etc. So what what Pimberly does is that ultimately it allows you to sort of seamlessly and easily um create great product data such that you can present the best possible digital representation of your product uh wherever that needs to be sent. So and most people think about websites, obviously, but obviously the other areas could be, you know, if especially if you've got bricks and mortar, it could be your digital point of sale, it could be your digital shelf tickets, if you've got uh showrooms, it might be digital displays. If you've got if you're B2B, it might be a digital data pool where uh your B2B customers can log in and pull down product data that they need for their systems. So what we do uh essentially with a little bit in the middle where we're where we make it super easy to pull in data from all the disparate areas where that might be, and that could be within your organization or it could be external to your organization, such as with all your vendors and suppliers. Um, we then uh basically understand what you're receiving, what your external systems need, your sales platforms, etc. And we basically either uh try and create that database uh automatically from algorithms, etc. Or if there's elements to it that we can't create automatically, then we'll say, right, okay, we've got this data missing. Who is it that owns this data and actually do workflows and processes to those individuals to say, hey, we've got this product in this category with this missing data, or this data that's not validated, it's got missing X or Y. Uh, please can you do something about it? Um, and and basically allow a business to understand to automate everything, make it easy, but also try and see where there are bottlenecks or where there are um areas that they could actually improve further through uh further automation.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Well, that's fascinating stuff. So obviously, what Pimberly does, and PIM in general in a mock uh context is allow for that omnichannel commerce to take place. But it's fascinating, you actually have the functionality that if something's missing, it's like, you know, we really don't know how many flavors this comes in, or we really don't know if this is going to be compliant with a fitment within uh a greater item. That's pretty interesting. And and and cues the the responsible party to fill in that data.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Exactly. And and most of the time, you know, if you can, you know, if there's some element of logic around it, um, then then you can then you can create that automation or that if you like, I mean some people would say intelligence, but ultimately it's an automation uh within your PIM solution. Um so and a prime example would be that's easy to visualize would be I've got a set of I've got a category of products that are laptops or notebooks. Um I've also got a category of products that are laptop and notebook cases. How do I know which case is compatible with which laptop? Well, you know the laptop external dimensions and you know the laptop case external dimensions, so you it isn't beyond uh you know most people to be able to write down and say, actually, if my height, width, and depth is within a certain percentage of my laptop case, then that's an optimum fit for that laptop. And you and that's just a simple example of where you can use common basic logic, but programmatically put that in into your PIM so that it automatically enables you to create the connection and relationship between products that allows you to then um give your end consumer, whether that's a B2B or B2C, the ability to have not just uh the right selection, but the complete selection, and one that you know with some high degree of confidence that it will be correct for them. So therefore, not only reducing returns, but increasing customer advocacy, etc.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Well, you know, I wish that there was a functionality that could determine which case for a phone would be uh prone to less dropping. You know, that's an issue that I have. And you know, I hope that's in the roadmap. I mean, that would certainly enhance my customer journey, not to mention my uh need to replace my phone as often as I have. But uh, you know, in in terms of you know your your motivation to actually found Pimberly, I mean beginning a startup is obviously a uh a tremendous set of challenges. You've really got to have uh a core belief in in delivering that value. What was it that that led you to create Pemberley?

SPEAKER_01 6:50

My my um previous uh sort of lives of of being um in the IT managed services, um where I've had uh a number of businesses that I I I've uh I've grown. I've never, this is my first company that I've founded, where I've grown those businesses and and it's all about you know, you're in in in and those people that that that are in IT managed services or any or are actually any business where you're you're uh supplying you know products and services that fundamentally you don't manufacture, so therefore you're you're reselling or uh um or or you know sort of beholden to brands, as it were. So it's all about you where to differentiate and and maximize on your on your margins is all about customer care, customer service, the service wrap, the whole sort of product in in with a capital P sort of product experience, which is all about you know the whole life cycle of of what you deliver. And um and one of my last businesses, we've focused on the creative industry, so that's film, TV, music, etc., where we're supplying um IT uh managed services and solutions. Um, and we were increasingly wanting to allow them, and so were they, to actually do repeat orders for equipment, etc. Some you know, sometimes you know, up to tens of thousands of dollars at a time. Um, but it was the same equipment, same spec, etc. They didn't necessarily need to or want to speak to a technician to be able to place that order, and so obviously that pulls you from a B2B point of view into allowing them to have or creating a more like uh an online experience for them that that's increasingly consumerized. Um and one of the barriers that we found straight away was um product data. You know, this was a highly technical product with lots of different attributions, um, they there's a lot of highly configurable elements to it. There was conditional configurability, so if you picked option A, that means that you couldn't do option B and D. And so we really struggled with it, and we could see that this was a uh an industry issue, and even some of the bigger brands that we were dealing with, you know, the amount of or the data and the quality of data they had, and as you come back to the digital representation of their product, including images and all that sort of thing, was was very lacking. And so that's that's really what sort of spurred us on to think, well, you know, can can we what is there out there? And there wasn't anything. We actually had a small development team that was focused on a very uh a very niche project management tool around uh providing e-catalogs and catalogues to the retail fashion industry. Um, and and so we we basically uh challenged that team uh to actually come up with a uh a solution that would do what we wanted, but from the get-go, it had to be able to um deal with structured and unstructured data because we could see that you know going forwards, you know, it was more about the sort of the visual representation of a product, um, and that's more so. I mean, Apple's just launched its Vision Pro, and you can imagine what the purchase experience is going to be like in terms of evaluating products in the future. And so that's what spurred us on to actually develop it. And we sort of incubated that within my previous uh business, and then I'm very fortunate that that my previous business um we sold it and I and I basically retained Pimbley um because that was that was my baby, as it were. And um unfortunately for me, the the Pimbley staff at the time, they saw me once a month, and then literally they got me every day. So um I think they'd probably see it as differently to me. Um but that's how it all started. Um and from a premise of a full service customer support, because that's my you know, that's my background in terms of you know um understanding and being from a business point of view. And also separately, I have a family business that that owns a furniture brand uh in the UK, so making um furniture, um, so and we sell it into independence and etc. etc. So again, I could see the I could see the sort of issues that we had there. When I got interested in this for my business, I would then talk to the family about the family said, Yeah, you know what, it's just as bad for us, you know. So um all those things came at came at once, and and then the other bit which comes back to the startup bit, is that I'd never done a startup. And so you sat there. I'm sure a lot of entrepreneurs will be like this. You I'm sure they have it if you've never done one. And you're like, Well, how hard can that be? You know, it's and uh and and uh and it and and as we all know, it's it's it's uh yeah, it's it's a massive emotional roller coaster, uh, at least in the early days, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Well, uh, you know, I I think that you've you've probably discovered that your team seeing you every day has not been terribly disruptive to them. Although I do notice a lot of people leaving behind you. Those of you that are just listening to this, you you don't see Martin sitting in his office, but there's there's there's people that that are marching by the window. I don't think those people are leaving for good. They're just you know, they're just mulling around, but that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Yeah, it's it's it's it's quarter past five, so we'll let them have and it is Valentine's evening.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yes. Well, you know, I'm sorry I didn't bring you any flowers, but thank you so much for for for bringing for joining us on a Valentine's Day. I hope you remembered some.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

I did, I did. That was sorted. I got the I got the photographic evidence from from uh my better other half this morning, so I got big ticks for that.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Back to Pimberley, you know, the the the promise of of mock architecture uh and mock is that we'll be able to allow every customer to have a very unique journey with a brand. And we all look at products and consume products and envision products in our lives differently. And it having the right content, because to quote the great Dean Parker, e-commerce is a content play, it's it's the heart of the action. So the more you know about how someone wants to use or will potentially use your product in relation to other products they may have or their lifestyle or you know what they've been doing that day or that week, the more data you need within around that product. And you that data needs to be accessible to everything within your commerce and your Martech stack. So it sounds like that that was the issue you were coping with and and pursuing. And now that you've actually started uh a company to do it, you're you're you're neck deep and how difficult it is to do it well. And uh I'll I'll wish you kudos for that as well. But in terms of your contrasting having an external PIM with uh what most merchants are are are kind of stuck with, with uh the monolithic providers like Salesforce or Shopify, what are some of the other differences, if any that we haven't touched on that you'd want to mention?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, so I I think the first thing is to understand because people will say, well, what does it mean by composable, you know, um down you know, from a company like PIMBY, from a solution like Pimbli, and what does it mean about you know, you know, from a Mac point of view? So on a composable bit, you know, what I would explain is that you know when when we think about developing the solution, we're we're thinking about three things. There's the one thing which is you know, we want to be absolutely best of breed in terms of dealing with product data, um, structured and unstructured. Um, and I'll come on to that in terms of what what the diff what are the things that we you can then do that a monolith can. But then the other things that a monolith doesn't have to worry about um is that we have to be able to ingest data super easily and be able to integrate super easily with incoming data, and then we need to be on the output side, we need to be able to um you know be able to export if you like, if you're thinking about data or or uh or send data in whatever format is required by the receiving platform. So when you're creating a composable software uh piece of software, there's though there's those different facets that you need to think about. Yes, there's what you know what what is the best of breed functionality that you're trying to create, but also you've got to say, but I've got to be completely open. Whatever you see on the screen has got to be accessible by um other platforms as well for when we bolt it in, etc. And also I need to make sure that um my the my method of integrating with me and me integrating with another platform or multiple platforms ultimately is super easy and is common and is well understood by you know your typical sort of dev team, etc. So that when you come to pulling things together, and it's not just about languages, it's about you know um the things that people don't think about, you know, like uh uh throughput rates and how you deal with that, timing out issues, you know. So it's all those sort of things that a monolithic sort of thing probably never has to even worry about, and that's what makes it hard. Now, coming coming back to why why would you have an what can an external PIM do that my uh existing platform can't do? Um, well, for a start, you know, you've you you're looking at data, we don't care what type of data it is, so we don't mind you know, from our point of view, as I said, we don't we don't mind whether it's um uh sort of static sort of structured data or it or instructured data, who knows what new um files and file formats are coming down the road. I mean, you know, two years ago we were all talking about NFTs, etc., weren't we? I mean it it's still sort of there, but that's a yet another file format type thing. So um then the other thing is that you know, again, pre probably pre-COVID, we were all really getting into um hyper-personalization, you know. So, you know, being all good marketeers will tell you that if you can if you can speak to the consumer individually um uh about them and that and how does that translate in a product? Well, that's might be as simple as um uh I'm selling a you know a lady's um dress, you know, um I I know what size you are, I know, etc. So I've so why am I serving up images that are not your body shape when actually I could serve up an image that is your body shape, and actually I've just said that I'm buying it for a prom or I'm buying it for a wedding, why don't you show me those images in that use case, etc. You know, and and um and so in a in a pim, uh a modern pim platform, you know, what you get is that you can have um you know pretty much unlimited dimensions to your SKUs, so you can say, well, yeah, I can have, yeah, that's a SKU, but I can have multiple different variations of the images, of the descriptions, etc. etc. And I'll so long as the receiving platform is capable of being able to personalize at that level, um, we can serve that up for them. The other thing is that um you know it's unlimited attribution. Um, so you know, just just thinking about where you know whether it's sustainability or traceability of products, you know, that in itself is a whole new set of attribution that you're gonna have to capture. And in a in a modern PIM, you know, again, we we build them in such a way that it's super flexible, you can keep adding attributes, it doesn't matter what they are, it doesn't matter whether it's a test certificate or it's a date or it's a number or it's a text string or whatever. Um, so again, you can do that, and then other things are around what a lot of people just day to day struggle with, which is you know, just manipulating prices or manipulating um you know bulk editing sort of thing. So marketing teams suddenly turned up, and you say, We're not calling that the the you know the the demographic now calls that colour, I don't know, um satin beige, um, and we need to change all our our sort of like beige to and add satin beige in there, and and so in a in a PIM you can very very easily sort of like go through and replace all that uh thing, but uh but in a controlled fashion with audit trails, with you know being able to undo it, etc. Um, so you've got all that sort of governance around it, you know. Other things that that you can do can can be around sort of automating sort of campaigns. So if you take Black Friday, you can look load up all your um images, your descriptions, where um uh everything for products that's in that campaign, and you can say in a modern PIM, you can say, right, on that day I want you to flip my prices, images, descriptions to that, and then on that day you can flip it back. And not only that, it's there and it's kept there for next time as well. Because many customers will see you then and they'll say, Well, we sort of like it's Valentine's Day, like it is today. The way we look at do our campaign for Valentine's Day is we dig in our emails to find out which was the last email last year that approved the copy for this product, and then we say, Right, okay, what did we do last year? Again, in a modern PIM, all that's in there, it's it's it's kept there historically, and you just say, right, okay, let's then invoke that campaign again, let's tweak it, and off we go. So there's there's I could sit here for hours and hours and hours giving you lots of U cases that that say these are the sorts of things you can do. And why is that? That's because it's all we care about. You know, it's this is what we do, and we don't have to worry about checkout, we don't have to worry about um order management processing, we don't have to worry about tax regimes, we don't have to worry about anything else like a Shopify does, like whatever. So you And that's ultimately what um composable is about. It's about best to breed.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Do you have a particularly favorite business case thus far in your deployments that you'd like to like to share with us?

SPEAKER_01 22:14

We deploy to uh PIMS to both to manufacturers and distributors and or wholesalers and and and retailers. And so there's diff different different use cases. And I'll do a quick one. So from a uh so we recently had a customer that's got literally millions of SKUs, and they're they they basically sell parts. Certain parts will fit multiple different uh products. One of the huge things for them um was actually being able to um quickly understand if a part goes end of life, how what products does that impact? You know, and and how can you visualize that? And and and and if you think about from a commercial point of view, it's sort of like not just about oh, this is not just the interesting element of it, it's basically, well, you know, if there are, you know, let let's say there are only a 1,500 parts of these left in in stock, should I buy them all? Because if I buy them all, I've captured the market for all those products that ultimately might need those parts if they're because without them those products can't work. So um, so that's you know, so that um and and and one of the things that uh a modern sort of SaaS PIM can do is not only allow you to sort of like very easily to visualize that on screen if you're a user, but also to to be able to sort of create some of those more complicated logic around well, what if this, that, then that, and and to give that sort of and give the I guess the the buyers or the the senior management more information to make very commercial decisions that they might not have been able to do before. Um so that's one interesting uh use case. Um, from a retail point of view, um as in uh retail stores uh point of view, and another sort of uh interesting use case um is to actually ingest, I guess people call it now digital shelf analytics, but to start ingesting um the digital shelf analytics and display it within the PIM. So by that I mean, for example, right down at SKU level, how often has that SKU been seen, you know, on the website actually viewed, you know, um, how often, you know, how much uh you probably not down at SKU level, but how much are we spending in terms of advertising on that product? How many times has it been added to basket, how many times has it been uh sort of uh uh bought, etc. And what you can then do within the PIM is actually see, I'd say right down at SKU level, whether you've got any uh opportunities where you can say, well, actually, I've got a very saleable, if you like, I like clickability, if you like. I've got something that gets highly clicked on and gets bought, but it's very low visibility, it's very rare that it actually gets surfaced. And uh and and basically, well, actually, you know, guess what? If you actually promote that more, whether that's on your uh sort of your product listing page or you you actually chuck a bit of advertising against it, you know that the conversion rate's very high. But then also looking at other SKUs where you say, Well, I'm spending a heck of a lot of money, it's got a lot of visibility, but nobody's clicking on it. And uh, and so then you say, Well, you know, well, maybe there's something wrong with the actual uh product content there, you know. So, what if we change if it's fashion? The usual thing is either it's not a great product, or you if you actually change the image out, it can have a much uh better um impact, you know, because a lot of people buy based on what things see look like, especially in homewares and and things. So that's been a really interesting use case uh where we're actually bringing because at the end of the day, a pim is a just a repository of data, and and so actual shelf analytics is is not difficult, it's just data, but it's then how you then present it to the end user such that they can make informed decisions and and maximize their um margins ultimately.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

So PIM obviously is going to provide uh that merchant with the ability to really inspect why something that should be moving, given everything else in uh that category or on that shelf, is uh and I think that's a magnificent functionality to have. Well, let's talk very briefly, if we could, about the sort of uh partners that you've been working with. Uh, first on the solution side, what sort of partners has Pimberly been engaged with uh to great effect?

SPEAKER_01 27:09

In a PIM world, if you like, you've you've probably got two constants. Uh one would be um your your platform that's feeding the PIM, and and usually um that will be ERP platforms, and then also obviously you've then where are you actually pushing the product data to? And that for for most part will be econ platforms. So so you sort of your mainstay will always be that you're working um either directly with uh an SI that that's that's that's uh helping you sort of interface within an econ platform uh or multiple econ platforms because you get a larger customer that's multi-geography, they they usually will have different you know different econ platforms for different geographies because just because you know it might you sometimes that they might be or they might have a different econ platform because it's easier to do a test in that geography to just spin up an easy one, and then they might roll out the more heavyweight platform once they're up and running there. Um and then from an ERP point of view, obviously um it it's it's especially if you're a multi-brand reseller, um, usually you're getting your your SKU data in that's initiated from the ERP, um, but also you can be pulling in that data directly from the thing. So so you know the partners you know that we uh from an SI point of view, partners that we've been working with in um in the US have big partners like uh Luminous Labs, Orium, all great folks uh in the UK, people like and digital in in terms of um you know e-com platforms, um big commerce would be one that we see as you know quite a you know very nice, friendly sort of uh thing, elastic path from an ERP point of view. You you tend to find that people have got an ERP and they're staying on it. So usually in especially in the US, you'll be coming across you know that you're always interfacing with things like uh uh Net Suite or some of the Microsoft uh products as well. Um and and OMS platforms like Bright Pearl are very, very, very easy platforms to work with. Um so yeah, so yeah, as a as a few. There are lots more, and I'm sure they're all gonna be um getting on my email and saying you didn't mention me, but uh there you are.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Well, this isn't the Academy Award, so I don't think you have to thank everyone, but you know, we'll we'll we'll put them in the in the notes. We'll make sure that they uh they get their chance. Uh well uh are are you seeking to add partners uh to your network at this time?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Definitely. Um I mean we're not a massive pim, and we don't, you know, so we're not uh we we're we're not sort of like what we're looking for are people um or partners, you know, that that that want a fairly you know you know tight relationship where we can work sort of seamlessly. I mean ultimately what you're trying to do is create an amazing sort of customer experience and make it as frictionless for the customer as in the supply, the person that's gonna have your solution as possible. So uh, you know, uh any partners out there that that um uh are looking for you know somebody that that you know when we're not sort of trying to get you know dozens and dozens of partners, we want to work with a few great partners. Um and it's similar with our customer base, you know, we are not trying to boil the ocean. Um we want to work with customers that that share the sort of the vision of the customer journey, and because it you know it is a long-term partnership, this is not a plug-and-play product ultimately. So, yeah, and then from a technology point of view, clearly interesting things are around um search, uh around. I mean, everybody talks about AI, try not to go into it too much or whatever, but but where there's uh elements in there, and then there's you know uh more sort of uh innovative, especially around OMS, you know, platforms, you know, because that that that for a customer becomes an you know the next obvious barrier to to expanding and to multi-market places is I've got to I've gotta actually capture all these transactions, I've gotta deal with them all, stock becomes or stock management becomes a major issue. So partners in in those sort of spheres are always interesting if they're innovative.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Well, you began your career as uh an auditor in finance, and you know how has you know the how has that squared with being the leader at a startup that's all about taking risks?

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yeah, well that probably uh ultimately if if you rang them up, they probably said I want a very good auditor. So um oh geez.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

I hope I hope that those books aren't still being examined.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

That's a long time ago. I'm I've seen the statue of lit statute of limitations way expired way by now. But but no, I mean I I I uh look, I did I did my I majored in in in physics, laser physics, and when I when I left uh college or university in the UK, you know, I came from a reasonably humble background, and my number one thing was earning money. And um and at the time, you know, going into finance well it still is, going into finance was a pretty pretty pretty uh pretty good way of earning earning a decent uh a decent salary, as it were. But then, you know, then and and what I enjoyed about that, um I went and worked for Deloitte was that you know you the bit that I learned from that two things. One was that's not what I wanted to be. Yep. And then the other thing was that um you because you're at such a big brand like that, you got to interface at a very young age with a lot of entrepreneurs um who were running businesses, and that is the bit that really said to me, No, that's I I'm I'm I'm in the wrong place here, that's where I want to be. And that's that's how it all started. So, first of all, it was go for them going for the money, and then it was you know, thinking, uh actually, yeah, this is okay, but that's way better, and I want some of that.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Well, you know, I'm just gonna take a moment to uh take my hat off to the brilliant recruiter at Deloitte who saw a you know a bright young fellow with a degree in laser physics and thought, you know, I think he should be an auditor, and uh we're we're gonna bring him in. Of course, you know, all of that litigation is long behind us. So, you know, who's to say whether they were right or wrong? All we know is that thanks that you've ended up where you are today. But you know, uh you you got exposed to an awful lot of entrepreneurs, as you said, you always do in the audit uh departments for the big five at that point. And you've you've certainly had to make your own uh way as a leader, but was there ever a some vi some leader that you came across that you thought of as just a great visionary or mentor that you've modeled yourself after or follow?

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Yeah, there's a there's a couple that I mean immediately it springs to mind that when when at my one of my first roles after uh Deloitte, um I worked for a guy um called uh Alan Vos, and um none of your uh listeners will have heard of, but and he said and he's he sadly passed away way too early, and I remember going to see him you know on his sort of last bit, and he he just said to me because we were all we all work crazy hours, and he just said to me, Don't don't forget to get off and smell the roses, and um and uh that that made a massive impact on my you because you think, yeah, ultimate, yeah. So you know what he meant on that, you know. So and then another person uh was another guy, workshop still still still alive and everything. So and that was I thought I was taking risks and um but I wasn't, you know, and then and then you know then I met I met a guy that was a proper entrepreneur risk taker, because I'd I'd grown up in finance, obviously. So you've always got this um sort of uh uh uh like an anchor of um sensibility that's dragging you back, as it were. And um and and and I and I remember him once saying to me, uh, because I I was still not really uh a profit owner at that point, he said it's alright for you, Matt. And he said, but you don't actually have to bring in the sales, you know, and and that that sort of and so from that point I I very quickly said, no, I what I want to I want to do sales and show that I could do it. And fortunately, fortunately it worked out alright for me. Um but I did realise that there's one thing, you know, it's easy to point out when somebody's not hitting target, and and um, but it's completely different when you own a target, you know, and you've got to deliver it. And then it's and then the other thing is, and a lot of people that have got who own their own business will get this as well. You know, when you move to owning your own business, when you're in a large company or whatever, the big thing you never ever think about is cash. And as soon as you've got your own business, it's oh my god, I've got to think about cash, you know. So, um, and that's a big rude awakener, you know. So everybody's you've got bills to pay, you've got your staff to feed, all that sort of thing. They've got their and they they've got their families and whatever. That's you know, that's quite a sobering thing, and that's what keeps you going. I think most of us keeps it going, is you know, you get to once you've started off and once you got to a certain size, you yeah, you want the success and you want it to grow, but but you you know, you've got you, you know, you you've got your team, and they're you're doing it for your team, you know, because and your team's doing it for you. You're all doing it together, and you're in it together at that point. So that's the bit that keeps you front and center.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Well, you you hit a very salient point that uh many founders have missed, and that is if you want to be successful, especially in the software game, you've got to be the first sales executive for your firm and get a few across the line so that you know what it takes before you begin to build your sales organization and hand that off to someone uh so you're not uh oblivious to what is going to be required to get that job done. One, and you know, I I like that first quote, and it's uh particularly apropos on this Valentine's Day, you have to stop and smell the roses. And uh I'm going to wish you a wonderful Valentine's Day with your lovely, and I I hope you get to go home and enjoy those roses that you know are there, thanks to your uh forethought and and and sensitivity. Martin, thank you so much for spending some time with us today, and uh I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

That's right. Thank you. Thanks, Arrol. It's been an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

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