Naming Our Feelings with Devon Loftus

How do we engage with our feelings without being overwhelmed by the multitude of our emotions?

In this episode, I’m joined by Devon Loftus, an author and writer who finds inspiration in the human experience. She believes that emotions are important messengers, a universal language of humanity that connects us to ourselves and others.

Together, we have a heartfelt conversation about processing our feelings in new and expansive ways. And Devon shares how she names, sits with, and says goodbye to her emotions.

Tune in to hear us discuss...

• Unpacking how we “should” feel vs how we actually feel
• Devon’s favorite emotions
• The power in using our voices in a true & authentic way
• Breaking down the often catch-all term of “tired”
• What it means to “say goodbye” to our emotions when we’re tempted to over-identify with them

Hang out with Devon...

• Order Devon’s New Book Dwell
• Follow Devon on Instagram
• Visit Devon’s Website
• Read More from Devon with Her Newsletter on Substack
• Learn More About Moon Cycle Bakery

Resources...

• Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make Us Whole by Susan Cain

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You can't stay on your own side if you don't know what your needs are in the first place. Tend is a 12-week season where you'll learn to notice and name your needs, build unshakeable trust that they're legitimate, and stay by your own side, even when everything in you wants to self-abandon. 

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Transcript

1:20

Music. There, it's your host Mara Glatzel and you are listening to the Needy Podcast. Here at Needy, we are devoted to sharing frank conversations and true stories about what it means to meet your needs consistently, messily, and sustainably. Needy is a listener-funded podcast. Your contributions enable us to continue bringing you the delicious conversations you adore without, advertisement or interruption. To become a member of the Needy Inner Circle and to get information about today's episode, dance on over to theneedypodcast.com. Now, onto today's show. Music. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Needy Podcast. I am here today with Devon Loftus. Devon is an author and writer finding inspiration in the human experience. She believes that emotions are important messengers, a universal language of humanity that connects us to ourselves and others. Outside of writing, Devon makes pottery and spends time with her son, her husband, and their pup, preferably outdoors and preferably somewhere wild. Welcome, Devon. I'm so glad that you're here. Thank you, thank you. I am very excited to be here. Tell us a little bit about what you do you do and most importantly, why you do what you do? Hmm. Oh gosh. Well, I am the founder of Moon Cycle Bakery. So Moon Cycle Bakery was a business I started a few years ago and we look at the menstrual cycle and we look at certain hormones that fluctuate and then we look at micronutrients that are lost because of those fluctuations. And then from there, we created a cookbook that came up with all these wonderful recipes on how to nourish yourself using these whole foods like sweet potatoes and cacao and things that we can usually find in our supermarket. So I do that, I love that. That's where I am lots of days. And then I'm also a writer beyond that. I'm a copywriter by day and I love to write poetry and just finished writing my second book which is about to come out in gosh, a couple of weeks and that is a self-guided journal all about processing and meeting our emotions. And why do I do it? I often ask myself that, especially when it comes to those two things, kind of seeing the ties between the cycle and the second book and just me in general. I think that. I really, I have been put on this earth to break down stigmas and make space for things and and parts of ourselves that we often deny or reject either because they're big and hard or because of societal pressures or ways that we think we have to be. So yeah, that's why I do it. Amazing. Well, I just love, when you came into my orbit, I was already a really big fan of Moon Cycle Bakery at distance and I followed you there on all of the things. And then I think, I don't know, I saw your email address come through for something completely different. And I was so excited to get to know you and have read your book, which is fantastic. And we'll say here for the record, I did say it before we started recording, that I think that Dwell is such a phenomenal accompaniment to Needy, that they're like sister books. Because the number one issue that I find when I'm talking to people about their needs is that what we need is so highly informed by how we feel. And if we don't know how we feel, then we don't know what we need, right? And we, and feel, and it's very daunting, I think. People are overwhelmed by feelings because they think, well, I'm supposed to feel it in my body. What does that mean? I'm supposed to know what it means, what does that mean? And then I always have a good crew of folks who know what they should, quote unquote, should feel in every situation, but aren't quite as connected with how they actually feel. Hmm. So I'm curious for you how you came. To write a guided journal about feelings. Yeah, well that last bit about how you should feel versus how you actually feel I think is honestly what brought me to write well. So really since I was, a kid, my therapist just told me this week your nervous system feels everything and I thought yes, yes it does. It has since I was a child and that was always challenging, especially coming from you know certain people in my life who never could understand that, didn't have the tools themselves to really understand or accept their own feelings. To your point, know what they needed to do because of those feelings. So I often was told what I should feel. I often was put in a box and told this is who you are, this is how you should be and that's it, that's who you're going to be. And I carried that with me for a very long time until I went to college where, you know, for the first time I was really like, this isn't who I am but this is who I'm being told I should be or how I should feel. And that discord was such a, it was so, it was such a bind, it was breaking me from the inside out that I fell into a really deep depression, started having suicidal ideations, and eventually, honestly, to survive, I needed to talk to someone. I started going to therapy and it was there that all of this kind of surfaced and I realized I didn't have to be or feel the way that everyone thought I should or I didn't have to make people comfortable with how I felt. I really just had to be honest with myself about who I was, how I felt, and what I needed. And from there, I started. Coming back to myself. And it was about um gosh that was I was 17 it was probably 10 years later um I had a myriad of things happen and I just found myself sitting in my parents house. And I was so uncomfortable and I just started writing and discomfort just came out it was very yeah it was just it was not at all planned that I would be speaking from the voice of discomfort but just happened that way. And then from there I realized that um when I did that I had more compassion because I was able to see a part of myself kind of outside of myself like I would a person and I was able to yeah heal a little bit more. Yeah I have to say that in reading through the emotions in the book. I'm a really visual person and I'm, because of reasons that are diet culture related, not as connected to my body as I wish I was or I'm learning to be. And so, the whole thing of like feeling, like where do you feel it in your body? What the kind of sensation that has been historically very tricky for me to tap into, almost like it sometimes there, but not often. And reading through your different personifications of all of these different emotions was so powerful for me because it, I could, that it just tracked for me. In a way that I could hold on to. And, you know, in my work, I talk a lot about how the work happens in the inner landscape and I create this whole metaphor for it. And that is how, clearly how my brain works the more that I now understand it. And I felt, even before I had read the book, when I heard you talking about the book, had already lit up this new way of thinking about how to interact with emotions as they arose. And so I'm curious for you about, I don't know, what your hopes are for how it's received, like how, who do you think it's for? And yeah, because I just was reading it with this idea that there's this huge subset of people who really just don't, we have this very narrow, and I'm a therapist, we have this very narrow scope of telling people how to understand their feelings, and it's much too narrow. much too narrow. And I think your work widens it in such a delicious and affirming way. I love that. I would totally agree. I think, I feel like I am still learning. Like, honestly, I was saying to my husband the other day, I was like, I just wanna go and join some like study group and just research the shit out of emotions. Because I think they are so. Yeah, it's like the ocean. I'm like, there's so much we have yet to uncover. And with the, different styles of therapy, even that I've been in, I start to see them differently. So I did a lot of talk therapy growing up, a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and looking at the stories behind things. And now I'm in somatic therapy, and that's so body-oriented. And And I think maybe this work kind of meets somewhere in the middle, where for me, I am so sense driven. When I feel like I'm connected, when I feel like I'm here and present, it's because I'm focusing on my senses. And so that's really what... That is within a lot of my writing, but that's really what drove these pieces as well. And then that world bit you talk about of creating kind of the worlds that they live in, that felt really important because I have a huge tendency to over identify. So if I could see that these emotions live in certain places and I visit them, I don't feel like I'm stuck there. It's a place that I can come and go to, which is what ultimately my emotions want and I want anyway and what I need but it's yeah it's done in this way where um I do think it's unique. Like I haven't really seen it done where we can kind of see them as like parts of community right like as people that make up our world versus good bad or me or not me so yeah definitely not as narrow a little bit more nuanced I would say in that sense. Who is this book for who wants to reach, gosh, I think everyone. I really feel like... I mean, I think initially I thought like the big feelers, the people that really. Feel a lot, don't have a ton of tools to not even like process them, but meet them, like aren't even sure how to name their emotions quite yet, which I think is a lot of people. So I think that I think it could benefit everyone, but I definitely think it is for people that are maybe used to feeling a lot and want a different way of interacting and communicating with themselves. Mm-hmm yeah I could see this for people who are not big feelers. Yeah. And need a doorway in. Yeah absolutely I actually think there are certain people that come to mind when I was writing it that I thought this would be really good like this would be a really good tool for them, I think, because it's distance enough that they, it might not feel as intimidating. So yeah, I mean, that would be, I would love that. I would love if someone who's like, I just, this is so new to me, felt like this was a tool they could pick up and start to have that conversation. So I'm keenly aware that I started talking about feelings and now we're talking about emotions and now I'm curious for you, what, how you define the difference between the two? Oh, that's a great question. I think that I define, so the way that I look at it is, an emotion is joy or discomfort or contentment, right? Like they have these names and then the feeling is, is their characteristics. The way that they literally feel in my body, the thoughts that come with them and that's kind of the feelings that ebb and flow. The feelings that we feel in our body, those will come and then they'll go. But the emotions, will always be a part of us. They'll always be inside of us. So that's why I think we're remeeting our emotions over and over. I was just saying to my therapist that I could probably go and rewrite this whole book and all of these emotions would look different at this point, because I wrote it two years ago, two and a half years ago. Because those emotions are always evolving and sometimes the feelings that come with them do as well, but I usually still can tell i'm anxious because the feeling is tightness in my chest the feeling is, racing thoughts, you know, the feeling is the story that, i'm not going to Like i'm not going to be liked if I do this. It's it's those characteristics can evolve but they for me are usually my signposts that the emotion is present. Do you have a favorite emotion from the book? I do, I have a few. I love sorrow, actually. I think I've, I don't know if you've read Bittersweet by Susan Cain, but it's so good. And it's all about, honestly, like it's making a case for melancholy and longing and how they help make us whole. And she's, I mean, she's an amazing writer and she talks about certain anecdotal personal stories but she also looks at like music and religion and art and. I, she says in there that there are just some people who like have a thing for bittersweet emotions and I definitely think I'm one of them. And so I really love Sorrow, I just think she's a really beautiful loving emotion for me hard and painful but I my life is richer having known her because on the flip side I also have known deep wells of joy and I think they work hand in hand so I really love her. I also love awe because I just think awe is one of the best emotions and to me he's like a very casual, humble person that I can find in looking at the Grand Canyon, but I could also just see it when I look at my kid. So he's everywhere, basically, and I really loved writing him as well. I really like the emotions that you describe. I can't even, I was just looking around to to see if my copy is of course in the house, that I could recall which one I loved and highlighted oh so much. But like the kind of like slinkier, sort of like mean but sexy. Yeah. Like cute characters in there. I felt like I could really identify with what it was like to share space with those characters that were sort of seductive and kind. Yes, I love those as well. One of them is Temptation. I really like, yeah, I really loved her and Sensuality. Even vulnerability has a like an air of. Seduction. That's a great word. Yeah, those were so fun to write. I mean, yeah, so fun to write. And I was actually thinking of you because I remember when we were talking about doing the audio book recording, like when you're reading through certain pieces or certain parts of the book, and you're with like, you know, three men, and you're talking about these things. And I was like, yeah, those are some of the pieces where I'm like, like, oh yeah, it's getting spicy in here. But yeah, I love them. They're great too. Yeah, it was amazing. I'm curious, I should pull back the screen on the audio book recording gig, which is wild in and of itself. And I had in those moments, this real visceral sense of. Like the places in my body where the patriarchy is just baked in so deeply. Where I was felt like caught between what I was reading and standing behind what I was reading and also, you know, jumping out of my body trying to perceive myself as I was being perceived by the men that I was in the studio with and reading these things that were really vulnerable and true. And also was I not making too much out of it? It was just there were a few moments while I was reading it that were that I got really scrambled, Totally totally. I very much feel that I I mean you explained it so well that like being in and out of your body at the same time and, And that stepping out to be see how you're being perceived. I feel like that is. What That's like the collective trauma. Like that's exactly what it does. That's what it, what it has us do. Because the minute that I felt like the minute I stepped out, I wasn't in my, I wasn't like with myself anymore. I wasn't in my power anymore. And, um, yeah, it was a trip. It was, it was definitely, it was a mind trip. I like came home to my husband and was like, that was so, that was wildly uncomfortable and I'm just like judging the shit out of myself right now but I knew it was to your point it's just like it's because you're staring it in the face. Yeah well and you're creating this thing which is I mean in truth an incredibly intimate act which is reading your work and when somebody's listening to it they're not just reading your book they're also listening to you read it out loud. And I find now on the other side, I can't wait to get your audiobook first and foremost. But on the other side of it, when people tell me how much they like the audiobook, That is my favorite compliment. Yeah, why is that? I have my own reasons, but I'd love to hear yours. I don't know. It feels like they... It feels like we had a private fireside chat. Except we didn't. Do you know what I mean? That is the energy that I came to that with. And so it just feels like anybody who listens to the audiobook for Needy is going to, to, I don't know, be in on it with me in a different way than just writing it, because it's fun. There's, you know, the way you use your voice, the intonation, the, yeah, it was, it gave it kind of a whole other life that I wasn't anticipating. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I feel like it's such an intimate thing to do. Like, I even think about it, like, why do kids love being, I mean, at least my baby loves being read to at night. That's a new thing, but he like loves, he will start falling asleep and he will start to settle down when he hears us reading or even more than that, we sing at night to him and that's how he falls asleep. I think there's just so much power in our voice and when we're using it in a very true and authentic way. So like what's more true and authentic than reading the vulnerable and real raw words you wrote? Honestly, even like basically in a room alone, there's just something even so intimate about that where you're not even with anyone. Like it's like your pure essence coming through. And so it's like you're when you're people listen to your audio book, they feel like you're talking to them because you are really are. Mm hmm. Yeah. Well and especially when what you're talking about is something that feels taboo or feels vulnerable, or you don't often hear people talking about in a neutral or positive way and yeah there's a piece to it that's almost... It's like we're conspiring together Yeah, I was gonna say it feels like, Back in the day when you would like have to go and secretly meet someone, At night somewhere to talk about this, Yeah Uh, so I am curious. I mean when people are listening to this podcast episode We will be in and around while coming out which is very exciting for everybody because they can get their copy in with a quickness Um, but i'm curious for you about how, you're, baking Caring for yourself into this process of launching your book having just oh so recently, Uh been through that myself What does it does that look like for you? Especially having done this one time before it feels really hard. Honestly some days. Um. So the first time around, I I don't know if it was because it wasn't as vulnerable. I mean, the cookbook I loved with my whole heart and of course, was every bit as invested, but it was less me bearing pieces of myself. And I also had a co-author, so it was really nice to have someone to go through the movements with. This time around, it feels a ton more vulnerable. I also feel like I have way less capacity because I'm working full-time, I have three-year-olds, and so, tending to myself has looked a lot different. And honestly, a ton of it is letting go, which I'm terrible at. But it's been a lot of letting go of the things I can't control, letting go of these really not even real expectations or this immense amount of pressure I put on myself and then riding that wave and then doing the death grip again and then letting go. I mean it's just it's a constant up and down, back and forth of. Of surrendering and yeah trying to control. But the tending part I would say is I've just been talking about it so So like I'll bring light to it and that and really bringing light to my needs. So being very clear on what I need in the moment, in the next few days, in that next week, saying it out loud so that I can enlist help, but also so that that need doesn't kind of get put on the back burner as it might. And. Yeah, just trying to give myself as much grace as possible. Do you have any difficulty prioritizing yourself? Like taking up that space and asking? I'm not sure how to exactly ask this question. I found that I would weave in and out of feeling like I deserve this space I was taking up. We'll put it that way. Does that come up for you? Especially when it comes to, I don't know, I mean, I think I was keenly aware during the time that I'm doing this is the biggest thing that I have ever done in my career. It is huge personally. And also there's this machine of family that I am typically taking care of so much of and. Going back and forth between, yeah, this is what this makes sense, you know, career wise, taking up this space is what it like attracts. But personally, that felt hard to hold on to. Oh yeah, you hit the nail on the head. That's probably what I struggle with most is, I have been flow from, I feel this is really good, like I want to take up this space, I've worked really hard to take up this space, you know, like what I'm saying matters and and will hopefully help people and feeling really good there. And then the next second being like, oh my God, how can I take up this much space? Like my husband and my son, this, or honestly just being like, um, I just want to disappear. Like I just want to like go and I'm like, why don't I live on a farm and just like have chickens and paint by day? And like, why, why am I like going after this bigger thing? Do I, that really, like am I really capable of doing that? Yeah, it's definitely a back and forth and of trying to figure out. I don't know. I mean for me, I really do try to figure out like, am I being selfish and taking up this? And that's a hard one to answer. Personally, I feel like some days I'm like, no, hell no. And other days I'm like, maybe. Yeah. It's really challenging and something that I often say to myself is, uh, if I could do it any other way, I probably would. But that relates to my writing, that relates to my work, that relates to a lot of things that require, you know, for some reason I put myself in direct, in the direct line of increasing visibility. And also that is the most single most uncomfortable thing for me is that visibility. Tension between wanting it and being totally overwhelmed by it and wanting it again. Yeah. I felt like I really got in touch with my inner child and my inner child. Liked attention and got really tired and needed a nap like that. Totally. Yeah. I have been thinking about that a lot of like my inner child was the exact same way. Like she was big and loud and she loved it. But then would hate if I went somewhere and, like I remember going to like a rollerblading park like party or something and there was just someone there that was infatuated with me and I remember like hysterically crying, could not take it. I just wasn't in the space to receive it then. So yeah, I feel like I constantly question Is it a matter of. Resting along the way like is it a matter of like I'm so wildly uncomfortable and tired of being in the spotlight right now But I need to be in the spotlight So do I need to give myself what I need so I can be here like tend to myself over I can here. And or is it like I'm in the spotlight and I Take up space and I show up and then when I'm not this like I go and I take a hiatus like I'm always wondering about that process between, resting verse like taking larger amounts of time off. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I don't know what that is. I don't know what that answer is yet. I think for me it varies day by day. Some days I can like go for a walk or go get ice cream or whatever and feel like okay I'm good today. Like I did the little bits along the way that I needed to and then other times I'm like I need a fucking week off. I need to go like hideaway somewhere and that's just what that's gonna be. Well and I wonder, visual image that I'm getting for you right now is that when big things happen, it's like inside of us where all of these emotions dwell all of the time. It's sort of like a raucous dinner party where everybody is present and talking over each other, that kind of like, it's chaotic. Yeah, it is. I think that's also why in the book, like the steps of, the steps I go through, are for that exact reason, like the naming the emotion or the greeting it, the sitting with it, the conversing with it and then the saying goodbye because. If I am feeling overwhelmed or I'm feeling like I'm at that dinner party and everyone's yelling over each other, I love that. I don't even know who's there really, right? Like I'm so flustered and I'm not really present that I have to sit down and name them all to really understand what's going on and then what I need to do about it. Um, so I think, I think that's why naming your emotions is so important. Um, but so often I, I have people in my life where, you know, I'll ask, well, how are you feeling? And their response is, well, I think, you know, or like, or they'll just replay what it is that happened. So I think that naming an emotion, um, Brene Brown says it in the Atlas of the heart, something to the effect of like, it doesn't give the emotion more power. It gives you more power. But it's, yeah, it's hard sometimes to know what the emotion is. And also because I think emotions can be so nuanced. Well, something that I get a lot of in my work is when I ask people how they feel, They tell me that they feel tired. And rest becomes this kind of catch-all to me and I need something that I don't have. And as you were just talking, I was thinking about how I think certainly this has been the case for me, but I can see this with clients too, that tired becomes a catch-all. Becomes the catch-all. And that sometimes we have... These sort of buckets that are, you know, if you think about the feeling wheel, the things that are the closest to the center. But, you know, tired is just such a compelling one for me because it's like, I'm spiritually tired, I'm physically tired, I'm mentally tired. These have such completely different flavors for me. And having an offering set up in such a way that people are encouraged to dig a little bit deeper, and get to know what their own particular flavors are, I think is so powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's such a good point. It's funny, that's actually. That is so, so, so true. I mean, I can hear myself saying it and it's something that my husband growing up, like, it's something I've been with my husband. I've known him since we were 18. And I remember even when we were younger, him talking and I could tell something was off and I'd be like, what's wrong? Or, you know, how are you feeling? And he would say, I'm just tired. And I, and you just kind of know to your point, like, there's so much underneath that. But if you don't have, I also think to your point of like, it's one thing to not be able to name it, but if you also can't sit in it and be like, okay, well, this emotion makes me feel heavy. I feel like I often equate tiredness with heaviness. Or this emotion, like some emotions leave me feeling breathless, like I can't catch my breath. And sometimes that makes me feel tired. There's all these, you're right, there's all these little flavors. I love that word. And I think that's why the second step after naming it and sitting with it is so important because yeah, you really start to understand. What it feels like in your body and then from there, what stories, for me, it's like what stories make me feel this way too. Yeah, what way of looking at this makes me feel this way? So walk us through the process. Yeah. Yeah, so there are, so every emotion is put into five different worlds, like everyone has their own little world. The five worlds or categories are prickly emotions, full-bodied emotions, groovy emotions, spacious emotions, and transcendent emotions. And within at the end of each of those categories, there are journal prompts that then take you through four steps that we've just been talking about a little bit. So greeting an emotion or naming it, sitting with an emotion, conversing with it, and saying goodbye. I say saying goodbye with gratitude because that's my process. But you don't, you know, gratitude is not always accessible and you don't need it, I don't think, to regulate. So the first one being meeting an emotion or greeting it. We talked a little bit about that, but basically naming it to your point, starting to understand how it feels in your body. And then from there you sit with an emotion this is where we get a little more curious about those stories or those hurt story patterns um some of our triggers or our beliefs that kind of certain emotions I find I have certain beliefs that just trigger certain emotions and they can go on loop. So for things like that getting aware of yeah what those stories are and where they might stem from although that's not always possible to figure out. The third one would be conversing and that one is my favorite because it's the creative writing part where you personify your own emotions. So this is where, yeah. The prompts are all things like if this emotion that's present was a person, you know, what would they look like? What would their disposition be? Where are you meeting them in the world? What's around you keying into those senses? What do you smell or taste or feel and ultimately what are they there to tell you what do they need. And then the last step being saying goodbye with gratitude and so the last step is giving thanks to the emotion for showing up but giving thanks to yourself for, sitting with it and for talking with it and for giving it the acknowledgement that it and you need. So those yeah those are the four steps. I find myself most curious about the saying farewell portion. Because I remember when I was streaming it, thinking like, okay, okay, okay, okay, I'm with you, okay. And now I have to, there seems to be quite a bit of emotional regulation involved with. Intentionally saying goodbye and especially with a more full-bodied or triggering emotion to be with and, I'm curious about how you came to that. What was that learning like for you? What does that look like for you in practice? Yeah, so this is the regulating part is 100% what I'm still learning It has always been, I didn't really have it modeled for me growing up so it has been something that I've always been curious about and my practice is still changing. But when I say goodbye what I really mean is not over identifying or coming back into yourself, coming back into your body. So for example those full-bodied emotions yeah they are their full body they take up your whole body so it's hard to just snap out of it, right? Which is not anything that I think, I don't think we can logically talk our way out of feeling something. I don't think we should. So it's more of a matter of if you've named it and you've sat with it, like you're full of it basically at this point and then you've talked with it, you know what you need or maybe you don't, but you at least know that it's there and it's trying to speak up and you can't fully hear it quite yet, but you also just you can't hold it anymore either because it's starting to turn into rumination, it's starting to to become too overwhelming, it's it might even be like you have to literally go and pick up your child from school but whatever the reason, you have to shelve it. And for me, it's moron. It's more of getting out of that that space of being with it so conversing with it and hearing what it has to say and what you think and more so coming back to your body so things like dancing, just moving um going for a walk uh this is honestly where i think it comes back to being really clear on what you need so what do i need right now for this emotion to simmer a bit to be at bay like for me to just come back to me and find that stillness inside because for whatever reason I can't sit with it anymore. I think that looks different for everyone. For me it honestly looks different on a day-to-day basis but my go-to's are music so like I definitely music and dancing for me helps me kind of move through whatever needs to move through so it's not as overwhelming and journaling as well so just even just brain dumps, like getting everything out of my head so that I can say goodbye and come back to it later if I need or want to. And then, yeah, deep breaths, like being with playing, like being with my son. But yeah, anything that just makes me feel like I'm reconnected to my body and not necessarily dwelling in my head. Yeah. Yeah, because I think for some of us, especially, you know, those of us who didn't receive a ton of modeling around this kind of. You know, I think so often about when I'm talking to my children, where, you know, especially I have a six-year-old, and especially she will say, I can't stop. I can't stop. And I had to teach myself how to stop in order to teach her. Yes. Because I remember these conversations where I was like, you have to stop. And she was like, well, I can't, I don't know how, how do I? And my. Well, that's an excellent question. I mean, you know, it is something that I understand, of course, intellectually, but I can, you know, know in my body that feeling of it is, it's impossible to do any of those things. And so thank you. I love that all of the examples you gave us and also the invitation to not over identify with our emotions, because I think, that is a trap many of us fall into. The idea that there is there is a me that is separate from the me who is in that. Yeah. Yeah. Space is huge in and of itself and to have that modeling is very generous. Thank you. Of course. That's yeah. That's that's definitely something I've struggled with since I was a kid. So yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. A lot of people feel that way. And yeah, I love that. I love that. I can't stop. That's a very real way of putting it. And my son's the same way. My son's just, I mean, kids anyway, right? But my son is very much like me, where he's just very big feeling. And I've actually started to teach him some of these, some breath work that I've learned at therapy. Because there's movement involved and it's pretty amazing to see how quickly it can work. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it really is. Yeah, it's just, I mean, I think the kind of celestial joke of parenthood is how much of your own reparenting you are doing in the process. I wouldn't bold me that. Yeah, me neither. Yeah, that was a surprise. Yeah, it's amazing to re-meet yourself at every stage and to learn, to have that yearning for I want to give this to my kid and I can't because I don't know. I don't know. I, you know, it's just not embodied for me yet. And practicing it on your own. Yeah, that's a whole other podcast. I was just about to literally take those words out of my mouth. Devon, well, it has been just wonderful having you here. I am so excited for your book. I and wait for it to be out. Is there any last words you wanna leave us with? Any last things you want us to know? I think that the one thing I always think of when it comes to this kind of work that I've had to get to myself, honestly, is so much of what I feel like you talk a lot about too, Mara, is like, just come with grace. Don't judge how you do it. The thing I'm learning too with all of this is just. Trust yourself enough to eat up everything that brings you back to yourself. So no matter how that looks or if it's different from day to day or moment to moment, if it works for you, and I'm a big believer in all of this, nothing's prescriptive. So if it works for you, then let it work for you. For me, and how amazing it is that you can know and trust yourself enough, to lean into that, so that there's no right or wrong way of doing any of this. I love that, thank you so much. So tell us, Devon, where you like to hang out. Where can we find you? Where can we hang out with you? I was gonna say, you could find me in the woods. No, I don't like to be online, so don't find me there. Yeah, exactly. I like to hang out on Instagram, but I really like hanging out on Substack actually. I'm just starting to write again there, but it's cozy. I like it there. So yeah, you can find me under Devin Loftus or my newsletter is called Letters from Home on Substack. And on Instagram, it is at underscore Devin Loftus. Amazing. Well, I will put this both and all in the show notes and thank you. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. Music. Listening to the NeNe Podcast with Maren Glatzel. If you want my support in learning how to nourish your needs, dance on over to thenenepodcast.com to take my quiz to figure out what you need right now and how to meet those needs with a greater sense of ease and confidence. If you love today's show, please leave us a review on iTunes and consider joining the NeNe Inner Circle, where your monthly contribution enables us to continue bringing you the delicious conversations you adore without advertisement or interruption. To become a member of the Needy Inner Circle and gain access to the inspiring behind the scenes treats, we've whipped up for you, skip to the needypodcast.com. And as always, permission loves company. So if there's a human in your life that you think would benefit from this conversation, I would be so grateful if you would share it with us. Music.