Revenge Self-Sabotage with Rosie Molinary

Have you ever stayed up late for just one more Netflix episode, knowing it’s robbing you of the rest you need? Or abandoned your much-needed afternoon walk when a partner or colleague asked why you hadn’t taken it yet?

In today’s episode, I welcome back Rosie Molinary for a heartfelt and deeply honest conversation about the ways we’ve sabotaged our chances of getting our needs met as a means of getting back at those who didn’t meet them.

Rosie is an activist, author, speaker, and radical self-acceptance champion. She offers workshops and retreats, speaking on self-acceptance, body image, self-care, media literacy, the Latina experience, and intentional living. She also provides retreat facilitation and consultation to companies and brands that wish to provide a synergistic, empowered and soulful experience to their clients and employees as they serve the world.

Tune in to hear us discuss...

• The power of a mental health walk
• Discerning when delight needs to shift into care
• The helpfulness of sharing your intentions with others
• The various reasons we abandon ourselves and our needs
• Claiming the needs we want to distance ourselves from

Hang out with Rosie...

• Visit Rosie’s Website
• Order Rosie’s Books
• Follow Rosie on Instagram

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You can't stay on your own side if you don't know what your needs are in the first place. Tend is a 12-week season where you'll learn to notice and name your needs, build unshakeable trust that they're legitimate, and stay by your own side, even when everything in you wants to self-abandon. 

Spring cohort starts March 27, doors close March 20—join me at maraglatz

Transcript

1:20

Music. There, it's your host Mara Glatzel and you are listening to the Needy Podcast. Here at Needy, we are devoted to sharing frank conversations and true stories about what it means to meet your needs consistently, messily, and sustainably. Needy is a listener-funded podcast. Your contributions enable us to continue bringing you the delicious conversations you adore without, advertisement or interruption. To become a member of the Needy Inner Circle and to get information about today's episode, dance on over to theneedypodcast.com. Now, onto today's show. Music. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Needy Podcast. I'm so excited to have Rosie with us today. We just realized that this is our five-year anniversary podcast of our first podcast. If you you have been a listener from the beginning, you will know that Rosie was, I think, second, the second interview that I ever did on the Navy Podcast. And so, Rosie, welcome back. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk with you today. It's always so insightful and good therapy for me. Agreed, wholeheartedly. Rosie, will you tell us a little bit about what you do and why you do it. Yeah. So I'm a writer and educator and activist, like if you were just to put some little action words to it, but it's all really motivated by my fundamental belief that we are all here on purpose. We each have a gift or multiple gifts that we are meant to give the world over the course of our life. It doesn't have to be the same gift. It doesn't have to be epic or outwardly steered, steered, but I think that we always have purpose. And what I have found for myself is that too often, my relationship with myself, it's in the way of my ability to really live my purpose. And so my work is really focused on helping people to have healthy relationships with themselves, whether that's around self acceptance, or self awareness, or self care, so that they can go out and do the work that they are meant to do in the world. And I guess sort of an asterisk I want to add to that is. I come at self-care, and I know you do too as well, Mara, from really a sense of, with a justice orientation, and I don't think anything's wrong with us. I think that a lot of our systems are wrong, and that none of us can be well until all of us are well, and there's a whole lot of system work that we need to do, but if I'm not resourced enough to have the energy to do it, then no one's ever going to be well. And so that means that I need to resource myself so that I can stay in the fight so that everybody can be resourced. Mm. That is beautifully put. Thank you so much. And I do very much agree. I love your work. I'm curious what you are doing right now to resource yourself. How are you caring for yourself these days? These days? Such a good question. One of the things that's really critical for my being able to resource myself is, or seek resources that I need, is being aware of my needs. So I can, and I don't think this is unique, I can really tune out of my needs. I mean, that was my coping mechanism growing up was to not have needs. And so one thing that's essential for me to resource myself is to deliberately check in on my needs. And so that means reflection. A lot of times now I do it just in my head, like my mind is, my body is, my heart is, like what is going on right now in all my pieces? What's a word to describe how I'm feeling right now? What do I need right now? And so I try to have lots of conversations with myself. So I think that's the first sort of fundamental piece that leads to my being able to better resource myself. And then the things that I get the most, that I do the most regularly, that I get the most bang for my buck on are one, taking a daily walk out in the world. I really love to be in nature and to see birds and there's a pond near my house that's full of turtles. And so I like to head out there each day and see what's going on. And that just for me, it's interesting. I was thinking about what gives me the most like bang for my buck in terms of care. And I was struck by how that walk is. Spiritually renewing and physically renewing and mentally renewing, like it just hits a lot of categories. And so I try to really preserve that even though I often have to like force myself out the door. I like to paint. That's very meditative for me. It turns off my super active mind. Because I'm not great at painting, so I really have to be absorbed in it in order to feel some success. Hydration. I'm really dedicated to drinking a lot of water. And then I'm working really hard on my sleep. I don't sleep great, which I think is just the age that I am and the spot in life that I'm in. But I try really hard to get myself into the bed each day at the same time and to have good sleep hygiene and really am trying to make improvements. So those are like the key, the more dailiness stuff that comes up. Yeah, and I love the idea of like, what is the self-care thing that impacts me the most? And, you know, when I am short on time or energy or bandwidth, you know, knowing what that is, is such a game changer. It was really, so I do this work regularly, but I sat down about a month ago, it was in a session with a group, and I said, let's just write down everything we do for care, and which aspects of our well-being they touch. And I was like, wow, this movement is far and above like my most effective one, which has been really helpful to have had that realization because it's the thing I try to bag. And it takes the most amount of time. And I got to change clothes. And then I am like Cinderella with the weather. So it's like, I don't wanna be too hot. I don't wanna be too cold. So what time am I gonna go? And so that has, having done that exercise was really helpful to me. And I have been a lot less stompy about going on my mental health walk since I did that. So. Yeah, I have a similar understanding of sleep where I never wanna go to bed, when I need to go to bed ever. And I do, you know, at least 90% of the time. And it's because I've realized, wow, everything else that I want. By and large, falls into place with relative ease if I am well-rested. Yes. So, you know, I'm remembering to drink water, I'm taking my supplements, I'm making food choices that honor my body, I'm doing all of the, I want to move my body instead of feeling like, you know, a zombie. All of those things happen with relative ease if I get enough sleep. And so, you know, when I can only focus on one thing, focusing on that thing, but also having a way to describe it to myself when I'm up against another episode of my favorite show on Netflix, which is what is usually keeping me from bed. You know, having that way of explaining it to myself makes such a difference. It really does. And for me, it's been helpful to be aware of, am I soothing myself or am I resourcing myself. And there is room in our life for soothing. Like I am not a person who, I don't really love the phrase guilty pleasure. Me neither. And so I don't think like watching your favorite show is a guilty pleasure, but I do think that if I'm watching a show and it's bringing me delight, there's a point where I can cross over. And if it's keeping me up later, than I should be up, where it's going to have an inverse impact. I'm going to begin to lose delight tomorrow because of the impact. And so I try to think about how long do I need to be soothed before I move into a career. Moment to help me sort of be aware of That all good things can take a turn, Mm-hmm Well, and that helps you really be in the gray zone because I think otherwise we're like, well that is a good thing Quote-unquote or that is a bad thing quote-unquote and really any any thing, Can be either good or bad for us depending on the circumstance That's it. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, I always say to my clients, well, it's only a problem if it's a problem for you. Is it a problem for you? Right. Which is personal. So much of, I think, resourcing ourselves is just becoming aware of ourselves, like awakening to what we're feeling and how things impact us and then being responsive. And so realizing, oh, if I stay up till one, I'm a little crispy the next day. And nobody likes that, me most of all. And so, you know, has it become a problem? Like, will it become a problem for me? At this point, it will. So that's when I need to, to like say, oh, the delight stops right now. You know, it's like, I really love, like. Holiday candy like candy corn and jelly beans and. The first bag of candy corn I get every fall I'm reminded that there is a Corn too far like where it hits my stomach and I'm like, oh, this is no longer good. This has really taken a turn, But up until that moment it's delightful there is no warning sign and And so that metaphor for me plays in lots of places where I'm like, oh, That was a show too far and now I didn't get enough sleep or whatever the case may be and so I often think of that candy corn metaphor of like is this gonna be a corn too far and if so, Just being aware of what my limits are and what serves me and responsive to it Yeah, so in other words, the exact opposite of what we're planning on talking about today, which is self-abandonment. Yes. Yes. So when you were so just honored me so much by being a part of my needy book launch party, thank you. Oh, it was my honor. You said something there that this is, we're recording this in May, you said it in February, I've been thinking about it ever since, which is this term of revenge self-abandonment. And as somebody who thinks a fair amount about self-abandonment, both personally and professionally, bringing that revenge aspect into it really shook me. And that's why I wanted to have you here to pull it apart together. And I'm curious if you will kick us off by just letting us know what that means, what that term means to you. So, I would love to start by just sharing the moment that it occurred to me. I had never thought of the term before. I mean, certainly thought of self-abandonment. But I had never thought of revenge self-abandonment until I was reading Needy. And I would love for you, if you would hop over to page 2, at the bottom of page 2, and read just, that little bit and then into page three, this passage that kind of set me up with this, like, it was like you put a flashlight on my soul. Both you and your partner put a flashlight on my soul. So you read that and then I'll tell you a little bit about like what occurred to me and now how I think about revenge self-abandonment. Sure, all right. But in that moment on the couch, I could feel the hot shame of my neediness flooding me and threatening to eat me up whole. I felt angry when I thought of how unsupported I felt, but I didn't have the vocabulary to describe how I wanted to be supported. I was so exhausted, I needed a shower. I was ashamed that I couldn't smooth myself over and smile and nod graciously the way I had practiced for so long. My new postpartum body felt foreign. I desperately wanted to have the space and energy to return to my work, and my partner was taking everything, all of the available time, space, and shared resources. Intellectually, I knew this wasn't true, but it felt true. It felt as though we were fighting over one tiny scrap of available time, and they were grabbing it leaving me with nothing. Suddenly I exploded. Why are the things you want to do non-negotiable? What about my things? What about my needs? Tears rolled down my face as I got tangled up between needing to ask for something and feeling as though I didn't have the time or energy to figure out what it was. In spite of myself, I was quickly becoming that thing I tried really hard not to be, needy. Surprised, my partner calmly replied, if there are things that you want and need to do, you need to ask for them. It's not my job to read your mind. And when you say you're going to do something, you have to safeguard it. It's not my fault you keep giving all of your time away. Those words stung. I felt so angry. And while I wanted to be angry at them, really I was angry at myself. When had I stopped mattering? Why was I so quick to make myself small in order to take care of everyone else? Why did I believe that asking for help made me a burden? The truth is I hadn't prioritized my care. I hadn't respected my limits or set boundaries to protect my energy. I hadn't advocated for my needs. I hadn't even allowed myself to acknowledge that I had needs. Somewhere along the way, I had abandoned myself. I was longing to feel understood and valued, and I wanted them to do that for me. I wanted them to acknowledge my hard work and self-sacrifice with gifts, ample words of affirmation, and permission to tend to myself in whatever frivolous way occurred to me. But really, underneath it all, I want it to matter. When I read that and specifically read This part from your partner where they say when you say you're gonna do something you have to safeguard it, Felt so called and one thing I want to do is to say I've been working on caring for myself deliberately for 25 years and. Clearly I do this work because it's the thing that I most need to learn And so just I want to normalize that we can make progress and still have blind spots or still have slips or what like that just is how it is because if self abandonment is, not trusting our instincts or, People pleasing or hiding parts of ourselves or not honoring our needs as just some aspects of it, all of us came to those behaviors honestly and earnestly. Likely, there are patterns that we developed when we were young because the adults in our lives didn't meet our needs or see our needs or couldn't be there for those needs. And so we started to just forget them. Well, when you start to move towards, I love how you call it self-partnership, you start to move towards self-partnership, You become aware of those needs and try to deliberately practice them. And one thing that has been helpful for me in that is sharing my intentions with others. But if that person, i.e. my partner, says to me at the end of the day, I thought you were gonna walk today. I'm reminded of what you said in this passage you read. I didn't have the vocabulary just to describe how I wanted to be supported. What I want is to be like baby you need to go walk it is so important To me that you go what like that's what I want I get sort of this like I thought you were gonna go walk that can suddenly feel, really Threatening not because it is but because to go back to to that, you know, what was said to you. If you say you're going to do something, you have to safeguard it. So it's like this acknowledgement of you didn't safeguard it. And now here I am reminding you of this thing that you didn't prioritize. And the reality is I've never forgotten what I needed. I made some sort of deal like, oh, I took this phone call, talked to this person way too long. I never got out the door. And what I want to be said to me is, I've got homework Hubbard, you go. And so. The irony here for me is external accountability can feel really bossy. And so what arises in me is this conflict where I'm like, if I do this, I'm going to feel like I'm doing it for the other person. But let's be honest, my whole way of associating in the world has been to do something for another person. But there is this part of me that's like, I need to be doing this for myself. And so you know what? I'm not doing it. What is what got illuminated for me in that moment was, I will abandon myself as a way to say to someone else, I will show you that you don't know me or what I need better than I know myself, and that you are not the boss of me. We talked earlier about staying up, that revenge bedtime procrastination, where we might do it because we feel like there wasn't a lot of fun in our day. And finally, I'm responsible for nobody else. And so I'm going to eat this bowl of ice cream and watch SVU. And then later, we're like. Oh, that was not good for me at all. The next day, I stayed up way too late. And that is sort of the energy. I have this energy of, you do not know me better than I do. And I will show you the irony being that whatever I'm showing that person is spiteful to myself. Like it's no big loss to them if I don't do the thing that I stated that I would do for my own care. Yeah you know it is so interesting and compelling for me to think about because part of what I share in Needy and has been a continual effort for me to learn is the depths to which I use myself and my body to. Belong, but it's, it's like, if I'm really honest with myself, it's to manipulate other, people into giving me what I want and need without having to say anything. And that, that self abandonment, it's like, I am the one who is being punished by not going to I am the one who is being punished, but there is a very young and unhealed part of me, that wants to publicly suffer the consequences. Of how I feel like I've been wronged, so that people know that. So, you know what I mean? To try to bring some sort of healing healing or understanding forward without having to say, because I'm so conflict avoidant, without having to say, you hurt me or this impacted me or, you know, it's like a way of saying I'll show you, but like, so, it's so deeply... Abandoning because they don't care, you know, whoever this person is, is like, they're off, ordering a sandwich or, you know, reading the paper. They don't, they're not, you know, and not, not callously even, but they're not paying enough attention to me to even, you know, it's like, I'm not getting what I want and I'm suffering the consequences of this inability to, to admit maybe to myself and to other people. I needed, I needed you when you weren't there. Right. I, I need support that I don't know how to ask for. Um, and how that plays out in our relationship with ourselves and how by and large, we're punished by it. And the ultimate aim we might be looking for is not being achieved. Um, yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, something when you were talking about how the difference in what you needed from your partner around how the walks are discussed really illuminated that for me, because there are things that we don't think to ask for either because we don't know we're allowed to, or because we don't think we're going to get it, um, or because we've never seen anyone do it before. And so it's like we try to work our way around to that thing instead of just saying, Next time what I need is for you to say i've got this. Why don't you go take a walk? Yes You know and I think what strikes me is, I feel that there are And you could confirm this better than I could, um a fair number of us who grow up so aware of others' needs and so highly responsive to others' needs. And no one ever said what their needs were. We just, that's what our gift was to the world, is that we can, our intuition allows us to know it, and how we show up in the world is to be be highly responsive to that. And so, if I'm being honest, I want people who can do that for me. Like, please don't make me say it. Yeah. Please, please observe me enough to know like, oh baby, this is what you need. Like, and so then your response is, I'm sure you want to go on that walk. You go, I got this. Because also, what I want is to not come back into the house and all the things that I was thinking about I shouldn't go on the walk for are still waiting for me. Like, I want to go on the walk and have had those things handled while I was gone. Or some of them at least. And so, yes, I think that part of this is a desire to not have to speak up, because I think about, well, there were lots of people in my world that didn't have to speak up. I just knew. Can't you just know? Which is not reasonable. And thank goodness there are people in my lie who didn't have to infer all these things about the needs around them, but it means that I have to develop a vocabulary for not just saying those things, but a deep awareness of how. To communicate it and an offering of love. And so a lot of this is like attachment avoidance coming to self-care, and just being honest about that reality. And the gift I give people in my life, if I can say, this is a need that I have because the reality is, it has been a grand gift in my life, to be able to love people through their needs and be responsive to them. Sure, I have needed better boundaries throughout my life so that I can be resourced while doing it. But I mean, for the love, all of us want to. Feel seen and heard and understood. And sometimes we need to do that for ourselves. And so that's part of that self-partnership is doing that for ourselves and then offering. A roadmap to those who love us so that they can be a partner in that journey as well and keep us from. Abandoning ourselves, doing, you know, going there with Revenge Self-Abandonment. Yeah, my gosh, so many things. So the first thing I want to pull out of what you just said is that piece of being socially conditioned that what love is is just knowing what other people need without them having to say a word. Yeah. And if somebody's not doing that for me, me, I have an anxious attachment style. So if somebody's not doing that for me, I'm like, well, what does that mean? Do they really love me? Is it love? If they're not even caring enough to notice what's going on with me is, you know, and I'm spun way in two seconds. I'm spun way, out of the current moment. And part of that is how much conditioning I had from pop culture. Yes. Pop culture during my childhood that when somebody loves you, when they like choose you and pick you up and shine you off and you're, you know, special because they say so, if you could see my face, my eyes are rolling out of my head. You know, that then you get the benefit of never, you know, never struggling. It's like that person, because they love you and they care about you so much, they just know what you need and you do that in turn for them. And I was always really good at doing that, for other people. Largely... As a trauma response. Right. You know, and so I am very good at doing that. And I was remiss to find, that the people in my life were not so great at doing that. And I took that very personally. Right. It felt like a lack of love as opposed to a lack of response that they had to learn because they didn't have that particular trauma. God bless them. You know, like, Yeah. Well, and it put me into that hyper drive of having to earn it. Yeah. Which then further distanced me from myself and became this, you know, this ensnared tangle that I thought everybody knew. I thought we were all on the same page and it was, it is always so surprising to me when it becomes clear. I'm having these conversations by myself, with myself in the privacy of my own mind. Yeah. You know, no one else is thinking about whether or not I'm worth it or if I have to do the laundry and if I have to do it right now and then I'll be good and then I can, you know, no, by and large, nobody else gives a shit. And, you know, how so much of that, you know, I could almost just cry. It's like really thinking about how much grief I have for how I've used myself to change outcomes. And that it really is lying. You know, I mean, I think the shadow side of people pleasing that I certainly don't like to think about myself and I know people pleasers by and large don't like to think this either, is that people-pleasing behaviors are lies. And that not only does it not help you, actually, it keeps you further from what you want, which is that closeness and that feeling of being known and that feeling of being loved, because you're spinning yourself up in knots, doing all of these different things and presenting yourself in all of these different ways to try and influence the outcome instead of addressing it directly, which we all know can be very scary to do. That's so well said. And the lack of being known is also the lack of being known by yourself. Struck by still how much I struggle to make a true choice that disregards everything else and just says, this is what I want. So, I mean, as simple as like, What are we going to have for dinner for? My birthday, I'm aware of like, oh, well, my favorite dessert flavor is mint, but my dad doesn't like mint, so it shouldn't be that. And there's lactose intolerance over here, and you know, like where I just can't authentically, like I struggle with like, well, what is the meal that I would just choose if I didn't naturally have all these filters that I run things through? And so I think that freeing myself from self-abandonment in general, and more specifically, revenge self-abandonment where I'm doing it to be spiteful to someone else who's just trying to support me, but by golly, they're not supporting me the way that I thought it was going to ago when I made the ask in healing and in growth. It can be so hard to approach all of this. And I think this is why I love this conversation because it's so important that we have examples of people who have been doing this work for a long time, who are saying out loud and in the presence the needy audience. Hello, everyone. These things are hard. And it is okay if you're still figuring them out, if you're going to be figuring them out for a long time. Because, you know, for people for whom this is a struggle, it is such a factory default. Yes, like we came by it honestly, too. Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, it's that point of noticing, like, you struggle with these behaviors for very valid reasons. And also... You get to decide how you want to live your life. And that tension point of, you know, I don't, I don't want to abandon myself in a vengeful way. I don't want to use my body, um, to do things that I'm not brave enough to say, even if I don't feel brave enough to say it, even as I'm saying that, that, you know, I have the intention to disentangle myself from these behaviors, even as I know I don't want to have an active conflict with somebody. Like, you know, I don't feel comfortable with that either. But just that that acknowledgement and that desire to not be the punching bag in my own life. Yes. After we wrapped up your book launch And I just had that moment of like, oh, you know, what I most want is to safeguard it. That's what I most want. I most want to be capable of safeguarding, meeting my needs on my own. And yet I recognize that that's possible most of the time, but not all of the time. And that this funky wiring I have of being hypervigilant about being absent at a time when someone that I love has a need is pronounced for me, then I need partnership in that. As I mentioned earlier, sort of like accountability is good for me in general, and some of that's personal accountability, like putting it on my list and working it into my calendar. But also sometimes it's encouragement outside of myself. And so my partner had asked like, well, how was the book launch? And I was like, it was great. I said, but I got this really keen understanding of something that I do. And so I shared it with him. And it was great because it was at a time where I hadn't been offended, by his encouragement, and he hadn't been put out with, you told me to remind you and I reminded you. So what did I do wrong here? You know, where I could just say, you know, there's this, I do this thing where I want you to help me keep some of my commitments to myself. And then I sometimes resent you doing that because the way I hear what you say offends me.", And he was like, that is incredibly helpful to know. And so that's something we've been actively working on when I've made the ask of like, could you remind me that, sometime this weekend I want to squeeze in kayaking? I need it less for the daily things, like those things are pretty dialed in, but for like the occasional things that to make that commitment feels like walking away from my responsibilities at home, I need the encouragement of, I've got the responsibilities at home. And I need it in a tone that feels like I'm not. Inconveniencing, and I am not a failure at it either. And I think that was just, it was a really helpful conversation for us to have. And then this weekend, we had this moment where he sort of had that experience where I kept sort of trying to ask very gently, like, Are you sure this is what you want to be doing for yourself? I, are you sure? And he was like, yes, yes, yes. And on Sunday night, he was like, you are right. That is not what I wanted to be doing for myself. And while you need it more gently said to you, I need for you to be like, all of the proof in your life shows this is actually not what you wanna be doing for yourself. I need it to be super direct. And that was really good for us because I was all this weekend trying to talk to him the way that I want to be talked to in those moments, but that wasn't effective for him. And so, as we were going to bed on Sunday night, he was like, that's not how I need you to talk to me. I need you to be super direct about it. And where I'm like, oh, I need you to be really gentle. And so it was a great, that passage just, and then for me to sort of have this revenge self abandonment moment has been really clarifying, illuminating, and hopefully restorative, on our own paths to resourcing ourselves in my home. I love that. There was something unspoken in there that stood out for me, which is like, what happens when you don't wanna need what you need? Oh, for the love, yeah. Which is so often. Yes. Where, look, we all have needs. Many of those needs are gonna be inconvenient. We're gonna wanna hide from them. We're gonna wanna throw them in the trash can. We're gonna wanna run away from them screaming. and yet. The life that we want is in those needs that we've been avoiding. And so a lot of those are the things that we judge about ourselves. Like, I wish I didn't need you to talk to me like this. You know, I say similar things to my partner. I'm like, I wish I didn't have like a hair trigger response, to the tone of your voice, but I do. Which means I need you to just take a beat or put into context your attitude so that I have an understanding for it because I'm going to just personalize it in a second and make it be all about me. Which is my piece. Right. I'm going to write a story about that and it's not going to work out for us. Yeah. And it's like, I, that's mine to work on. Absolutely. in the meantime, while I'm working on it, you and I still have to share this home together and this life together. So, you know, knowing that about me, and I don't love that about myself. You know. It's something that I am actively working on. But in the meantime, it's like, you know, you're dealing with somebody who is very sensitive to tone of voice. And when I ask you for what I need, it means like, we had this really sweet moment, actually, the other day where Cookie was talking to me like it was like a business arrangement or something, which I was having a real adverse reaction to. And I said, well, I'm just feeling very tender about this conversation. And Cookie said, maybe I can be like 5% less businesslike and you can be 5% less tender and we can kind of like see what happens then. Which was so sweet and such a thing that we've been been working on, and I loved it so much because it was, you know, that's really the work of, it, right? We have two totally different communication styles, and I don't always love mine. And also, that's how I feel, and that's what I need to feel safe, to feel seen. So part of this work is claiming the parts of ourselves that we really want to distance ourselves from. And that's, it's confronting, but also we all have those things, all of us. Yes, and it reminds me of like what you just talked about in your partnership, which was like true and and in my partnership we just have, We have completely different needs and so we have because of that we have completely different communication styles and, Recognizing Like one part of this is recognizing like oh not everyone needs my communication style what communication style do you need and, and then communicating that to others who are loving us. Like, what I need is this. But yes, becoming really aware of it for ourselves. Where, and like you said, it may not be something we love about ourselves, but it is for now. And similar to. I sometimes have had moments in my life as a caregiver, in education, as an activist, thinking like, what right do I have to rest when not everybody's able to rest right now? And the answer to that is everybody deserves rest, but the way to get there is to not, is not to say you don't get to rest until everybody can rest because then what could happen is I'll burn out and I step out of the fight. And what we need is people who are deep in the work and passionate about it and have lots of experience to stay in the work. So please rest and resource yourself so that you can stay in the work. Similar to that. I don't want necessarily, you know, there may be aspects of the care that we need, that, you know, isn't sexy to us, is unwanted, but needed. And. Ignoring it or denying it is not going to make it go away. And so the sooner that we can sort of say like, oh, this is true for me, like, hey, I kind of wish it weren't true. You know, my son is an age where he would really like to be up super late. I am not at an age where I want to be up super late. And so he's like, but why do you have to go to bed? Like, why do I have to go to bed if you're going? Like, I was like, dude, I'm not leaving you up. Like, so we're going to bed. And one of the things I've said to him is like, I'm sorry, my sleep need is just is what it is. And we're all together as a family. And sometimes our needs impact one another, which means like you're heading into your bedroom at and it's not I mean like it's like a 10 or 10 30 but you know he's just at that age where he's like there has to be more to do it was time and I'd like to find it, so it may not be convenient it may not be what we want but needs are what they are and, life is not going to let us get away with ignoring them we can ignore them for a period but the the volume on them is just gonna get turned up higher. And what I've realized at this point in my life is I want to be responsive to my needs as early as possible. Because the lesson is a whole lot less painful the earlier I'm responsive. The longer I take, the more gnarly it gets. Yeah. My gosh, yes. The longer it takes, the more gnarly it gets. That belongs on an embroidered pillow, I'm fairly certain. Yeah. It's so true. It's so true. I mean, especially if we're thinking about burnout, you know, because it's seductive. You can suppress your needs for a period of time until you definitively cannot. Yep. And knowing what those warning signs are sooner, um so that you can tend to them when they're you know smaller Is so powerful and. I call that like your early warning system of like like when I start getting resentful of other people like quietly like, You know maybe i'm serving on a board and they say everybody needs to be at this thing and then somebody's not at this thing and i'm like must be nice not to have to be at this thing when everybody's supposed to be at this thing. Like when I go there, or years ago, my son said to me, why do you talk to me in that tone of voice? And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, you get really tight with me sometimes. And tight voice is a net, like, so if I'm resentful or if I get a tight voice, like early warning system, I have not been caring for myself. Things are going to go off the rails at some point unless I have a severe intervention. And I think it's so valuable for us to learn what our early warning systems are so that we don't get to the, passed out in the grocery store needs to get to the ER place. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, brings us full circle to what you were talking about at the top of the call about having a lot of conversations with yourself. Like, hey, how's it going? I had somebody the other day ask me how many times a day of checking in with yourself is too many. And I thought kind of like, I haven't met it yet. It is necessary, right? Like, yeah. Yeah. And it can be quick. So I think that's like, it can be in your head, folks. It can be while you're showering. Does not have to be right. Yeah. Oh, Rosie, I could obviously talk to you all day long. But I've kept you for so much time already. And I'm wondering if there's any last thing you wanna say or leave people with. Oh, wow. I feel like we've said all the things. So I guess if there is one last thing that I wanna say, it'll just be the most important relationship we have in our lives is the one we have with ourselves. We're who's with us all of the time. And so. Investing in yourself can sometimes, I mean, so often people talk about feeling really selfish doing that. And the reality is, is that it resources you in a way that allows you to show up the way you want to show up. Because your well-being matters. Yes, co-signed 100%. Rosie, where can we where can we find you? Where do you like to hang out online? Instagram is where I hang out the most. And I have a website, raisingmulnery.com. I send out a newsletter once a month. There'll probably be a little break in the summer. And that's where you can find out what I'm up to. And if you want to join me for a workshop or have me join your group for a workshop, that'd be great. And then I've got a couple of books, Beautiful You, A Daily Guide to Radical Self-Acceptance, and Iha Samarikana's beauty body image and growing up Latina. Awesome. Always a pleasure. Thank you so much, Rosie. Thank you. Have a great day. You as well. Music. Thanks for listening to the NeNe Podcast with Maren Glatzel. If you want my support in learning how to nourish your needs, dance on over to thenenepodcast.com to take my quiz to figure out what you need right now and how to meet those needs with a greater sense of ease and confidence. If you love today's show, please leave us a review on iTunes and consider joining the Needy Inner Circle, where your monthly contribution enables us to continue bringing you the delicious conversations you adore without advertisement or interruption. To become a member of the Needy Inner Circle and gain access to the inspiring behind the scenes treats, we've whipped up for you, skip to theneedypodcast.com And as always, permission loves company. So if there's a human in your life that you think will benefit from this conversation, I will be so grateful. Music.