S1E04 Silver Linings: Breaking the Stigma About Death by Suicide

September is Suicide Prevention month. Monique Barbieri joins Bianca this week to talk about suicide, mental health and community support. Both Monique and Bianca lost their dads to death by suicide and they share their stories with openness and humor, their journey through grief and rage and the gifts that they found through the healing process. 

• 8 PMADs Myths we need to bust! - Live Conversation with Lacey, Michelle and Meg
• Distress Centers of Greater Toronto
• The American Foundation
• Out of the Darkness Overnight Walk
• Day Nine: A Postpartum Depression Memoir
• Suicide Crisis Lifeline

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Monique: 0:00

And I'll tell you working on this booklet and being on these board meetings where we don't just talk about suicide. We talk about a whole department of care. It takes so much out of me. Yeah. And so I feel very conflicted that I need to plow forward with this fueled by rage fueled by my grief, fueled by my sadness, fueled by the love of my father and missing him so much that I need to make meaningful and drastic change.

Narrator: 0:40

You are listening to the Hot+Brave podcast with Bianca Sprague, where you'll hear brave stories, hot topics, and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the you need for your soul.

Bianca: 0:57

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Hot + Brave podcast. I'm your host, Bianca Sprague. It is Virgo season, and that means it's my birthday. This week in celebration of my birthday, which is the 17th of September if anyone wants to send me a DM, we are doing a flash sale for 30% off of everything at Bebo Mia, and it is for Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, only this week. It's very, very exciting. And we are dropping a new program. We're releasing the Fertility Specialist Certification for doulas because folks who are trying to conceive need so much love and care as they go through their fertility journeys or their infertility care. And that's where you come in. Head over to the website to find out more. This week is also a special addition for this episode because September is Suicide Prevention Month. And this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart and everyone here at Bebo Mia, because I lost my dad to suicide 10 years ago this year. I can't believe that. We talk a lot about mental health here at Bebo Mia. And when we're looking at death by suicide, it is one of the leading causes of death for new mothers. And I believe that mental health has a massive component around trauma, exhaustion, and rage. If you're feeling heavier depleted right now, maybe pause this and come back and listen. When you're feeling a bit stronger as we're gonna be discussing mental health, loss, and suicide. And I really, really want you guys to protect your hearts. We would also love to have your feedback. So leave us a review when you're done listening. We're sending stickers out to all of our community as a thank you for taking the time to show us some love. So hit that five stars. Tell us why you love us and enjoy this episode. I'm honored to have my dear friend Monique Barbieri join me in this conversation. Both Monique and I lost our dads to death by suicide. Mine 10 years ago and Monique's...

Monique: 2:49

Three and a half

Bianca: 2:50

this year, three and a half years ago. One of the things that both of us are deeply committed to in our ways is ending the stigma. I mean, as much as an individual can, um, but getting really intentional about language is one of mine. I, I, I really don't love the language of suicide. So we're gonna talk about that today. Um, I also want to flag some of the ways we might fondle suicide or think about suicide and death by suicide, uh, and, and really normalize that part of it. And there was a really great conversation with Meg and Lacey last week on our Facebook channel, um, just talking about some of the myths and stigmas with mental health. We were relating it back to the postpartum period, but I mean, death by suicide is one of the leading causes of deaths for new mothers. And we feel like that's a really important point that we would like to get across. Um, so I wanna thank Monique for joining us cuz this topic is a heavy one.

Monique: 3:48

Thank you so much for having me. I think you're these conversations I'm sure as we'll dive into they're so, so essential and to speak openly about all of the parts of it up down. Good, bad, ugly. Maybe we'll throw some jokes in there, which is a solid coping coping tool for, for you and I. I'm so grateful, grateful for our dark senses of humor. Um, but yeah, it's, I think it's about talking about the, the breaking the stigma, but also allowing yourself to feel so many different, different emotions about it. Like losing anybody you love, period, uh, is that that grief journey is gonna be difficult for anybody, but, you know, death by suicide has so many other layers to it. And so I think more conversations about it, the better.

Bianca: 4:51

Yeah, I agree. It is a very complicated thing. The grief around it is very unique. Um, research shows this as close to losing a loved one to a homicide. Um, but it still sits its own bucket. Parts of it are very irrational. So it's really hard for our rational brains for the folks left behind to make sense of it. So there's a few things we'd like to cover today. One, I know lots of people are always really curious about what that experience is like, you know, I think it's important to talk about our, our morbidity, that a lot of people don't like sharing and I was always really grateful that Monique and I could either use humor or honesty around like... super morbid. I could hold that. But I, I think it's really, um, again, just like our brain really wants to understand that because it's irrational.

Monique: 5:44

Yeah. I work in the comedy industry and I think we were touching on this a little bit before, but the, the context of when suicide hits the news often is around celebrities or this, this kind of burden, soul artist, soul, so on and so forth. And so it's, it's, it's something that previous to losing my father, I had always looked at as something that was more prevalent in just even my, my area of work. Unfortunately, since my father has passed away, I've had people in all kind of places in my life that have shared that they've lost siblings or other parents to suicide death by suicide. But also it continues, especially in, in the comedy world. And there were a few that have, have, uh, died recently. And I think in, in speaking openly about it, this is one of the silver linings that's come out of. It is that people will pick up the phone or people will reach out to me and kind of check their emotions to check if yeah, it's, it's what I did with you.

Bianca: 6:56

Yeah.

Monique: 6:57

Which was, I would, everyone's gonna lose somebody they love in their life. It's just a part of the reality of being a human being. Yeah. And there were so many people that would share their grief and if they had lost a parent. But nobody had been through my experience and you were the closest one to have done that. Yeah. So I would, I remember I would call you often and say, is, am I feeling normal? Is, is this rage that I'm feeling okay,

Bianca: 7:27

mm-hmm

Monique: 7:28

Is this loss that I'm feeling? Is it weird that I've made a joke about this.

Bianca: 7:34

We have made so many.

Monique: 7:36

So many jokes! Yeah. I , yeah, it's the greatest blessing. But I remember sending, uh, a note to a friend that had lost another friend, somebody that they had worked with to suicide death by suicide. And, um, all I said to them was it's one of those scenarios where we don't have the privilege of understanding mm-hmm somebody's emotions in that time. Yeah. We don't know how long they've been carrying this pain. We don't know what they were feeling in the moment. We don't know if, if we just don't know. Yeah. And those questions to the people that they leave behind seem often seem so unfair. Mm-hmm . And it's not like you can go and Google and research, like if somebody had a different kind of diagnosis, this thing happens. And you're when somebody's diagnosed with say like a breast cancer and then this thing happens and then this thing happens and then there's a result. Yes. Yeah., there's just, there are just too, too many angles. And then everybody in their own way, to even survive their own grief, has a tendency to come up with their own narrative that allows them to survive this pain. And I think the conflicts, even within families, those, those narratives are different.

Bianca: 9:21

Oh, I know the, some of the things that my siblings had, somebody had this, like, it was an accident. And then two people who had like, dreams about it, that my dad came and said it was an accident. Um, that he was like, my dad, I apparently used to fondle, dark and twisty by himself. Um, my dad hanged himself, just so everyone can rip that bandaid off. Um, my mom was recovering a chair and I think he was probably like in one of his dark and twisty by himself. Um, the story goes that he didn't know the chair was broken and. Um, stepped on in a dark and twisty, but didn't actually mean to do it. And I was like, that's the fucking most suffering you could have just thrusted in my face by telling me that. And they were like, no, it feels like way better to know he didn't mean to. I was like, are you kidding me? That makes it so much worse for me that he was like, stepped on the broken chair and was like, whoops, that was just not supposed to go this way. Yeah. And then add another 30 seconds, like fuck off. That's terrible. Don't, don't put that in my head. But they found comfort from that being like, he didn't mean to. And I was like, no, I don't want that. I want that he did this. And he made a decision and he got the autonomy of making that decision.

Monique: 10:47

Right. And there's, there's the conflict because some, sometimes even in my narrative, if I, depending on my mood, it could be, how could he have done this? How is this affecting me? It's a very selfish place to be in. And then I over-correct. And say, no, he was in so much pain. I don't want him to be in pain anymore. Yeah. But then there's also an in between of, well, what happens if he changed his mind at the last minute? And it was too late and this and that. And it's like, yeah, it always comes back. At least to me. And in any conversations I've had with others, we don't, we don't have the privilege of knowing that information. Yeah. And there's no value. I find that there's no value in trying to fill those gaps. Yeah. So I have to remind myself that, trying to build that story in whatever way, isn't helpful to my present feeling. Yeah. But acknowledge that, that, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to rationalize something that will never be rational to myself or to anyone else. And I also have had to let go of this idea that just because I can say that to myself, that other people that I love in my family that are so closely affected by this loss and will continue to be for the rest of their lives, that they may have a different narrative that allows them to continue. Living their lives. Yeah. And those for sure, those won't align sometimes. And sometimes that will upset me, but it's like, everyone's on their own grief dingy. Initially I was really upset by not seeing my family members grieve the same way I did. Yeah. Cause for me it was big. It was, I can't get out of bed. I can't understand this. I was like physically and emotionally weak. I could barely put together sentences. I really, I took maybe close to two months off of work. And even once I got back to the office, I decided to go back to the office just because I, I needed to get back. I felt like I needed to get back into a routine, but I was useless. Bianca: Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I was, I was really upset that everyone's grief didn't look like mine. Like, why aren't you crying and crumbling on the floor? Like, aren't you feeling the same pain that I am? And I thought that that meant that I missed him more or that they didn't miss him enough. I didn't have anything to compare it to. And you shouldn't really want people to have a baseline to com to compare it to. But, uh, yeah, I remember needing to be reminded that people process this, like any grief, they process it and they show it very differently.

Bianca: 14:21

For sure. I felt a lot of shame about how I expressed it. I lost my dad in 2012 and I'd already had three very, very major grief events in my life. Um, a massive one around losing a business partner, she didn't die. She just left. Um, I was like, just to clarify. I had had a botch surgery, and I had lost my partner again. She didn't die, she just left . And it was my first like insane heartbreak. And so by the time my dad's death came around still all in the first six months of the year, I was like numb and the idea of losing my parents was probably one of my biggest fears, particularly losing my dad. And I, I used to feel very anxious through my twenties, um, about like the experience of my dad dying, but I imagined it as an old person, the movies like Titanic, I was, I was in high school. But the whole time I just kept thinking like that could be my dad. And then the same thing with Armageddon. I remember Liv Tyler like on the screen and that the, the grief, like, I can like feel palpable of, like, I can't imagine losing my dad. Um, and then when I did lose my dad, I was very numb and very distracted. And I actually was like, oh, I should probably cry. Everyone else in the room is crying, but I like actually felt nothing. And I was like, I can't believe we're standing around this bed. Cuz my dad, um, he, he did technically die hanging himself. Um, and then, um, my sister resuscitated him and so he lived on life support for 36 hours. And so he died in the hospital with like all of us around him. I thought that moment would be something else. Like, I, I, I, the romantic notion in my head of this like very dramatic event and I like felt very little. I actually just admitted to Hailey recently as a process of getting ready for this, that I was like, oh, I actually, at the time I was very unwell myself. Um, had like an excitement of the story of calling everybody and telling them. And I actually became the designated phone caller and found some gem joy of dropping this bomb on 60 people in the afternoon. I just wanna flag for everybody, the more you can admit this shit that you feel a lot of shame for. It's actually like really freeing and you feel really nice. Um, as soon as I told Haley, I was like, oh God, that felt good. Um, but yeah, and then I still went home and I, my, the loss of my partner felt bigger. Mm. And it wasn't until the first time that I was like, oh, and I was a single parent that was under resourced. And, um, contrary to what people think about middle class contracts got nothing from the death of my father. And so I was, I had to go back to work. So I went back to work immediately. Like I flew home and was back running Bebo Mia and all of our clients and people. Um, so I had no space for grief and it wasn't until later. And then now, um, not having any contact from my family of origin, sometimes when I feel like disappointed about my mom's adult, abandonment of me, I can have this, like my mom and dad, dad left me and then I'm like, oh, come on, Bianca. You're just sad that your mom abandoned you as an adult. But your dad, that was a fine choice. And as Monique said about the silver linings, the death of my dad was the most pivotal and profound moment of my life. Yes. So I actually, I feel grief that there's times where I was like, oh shit, I'd love to tell you that. Or like, oh, I wish I knew that. Or like, I had more stories I needed to ask you. Um, I actually wouldn't trade it for anything. Like, even if they're like, your dad could come back and you could start from that moment. I, I don't think I would take it.

Monique: 18:37

I struggle with that in that selfishly. I want him back because he was my person that I talked to. Yeah. I, I talked to him about everything, even if I knew that I had made my own decision, it was just our relationship. I would, I, I loved to hear how engaged he was. We, we just, we just talked about. Everything and that I don't think I've ever made a major decision in my life without picking up the phone or sitting and, and chatting with him. Selfishly, I, I need that. Mm-hmm I, I need him back. I often think because life continues on, unfortunately , but I, I have lots of decisions coming up that I'm like, where the heck are you? But the reality is is I check myself and say, and, and again, this is unique to my father's circumstance. He was in so much pain. Yeah. His depression was so heavy and dark that me needing him, I feel like is a selfish emotion to have. If everything had stayed the same, if he still was misdiagnosed, if he wasn't on the right medication, if he wasn't finding the right like clinical, uh, or, or therapeutic support, it would've been miserable. And he died before the pandemic. I often will remind myself what a horrible head space to have been. I don't know that he would've survived. Would I love to have him back because I miss my person and I don't necessarily feel like anybody can ever take that space? Yes. Yeah. Do I also acknowledge that his pain was so heavy and I don't want that for him? Yeah.

Bianca: 20:56

Mm-hmm yeah, I would've. I felt more frantic at the three year mark, um, to have him back. Like I, that's where I remember feeling, um, a significant franticness in my grief cycle. My dad's, um, mental health didn't register in the same way as your dad's. It's not to say he didn't suffer quietly. I think he suffered, like Spragues do: in private. When people ask, like, did you know? did you suspect? Um, it was very shocking with my dad. Shortly after my dad's death his best friend also died by suicide. So, I mean, it was, um, and my dad's friend had a similar experience closer to your dad's where like the illness of it was like any other illness. I don't know why we separate mind and body as dramatically as we do, but it's deeply uncomfortable. And every day is very hard, the same wave, you know? Folks are their body's breaking down from cancer or MS or HIV, or like any other disease.

Monique: 22:04

Yeah. You know, when you, when you lose a parent in particular, and I guess you and I were talking a lot about losing our fathers, cuz those are our experiences, but I found that people came up to me always. And if they had also lost a parent to, to whatever, usually it was a, a chronic, like a, an illness. Yeah. Not to say that the depression isn't an illness, but um, more of a like let's call it a visible yeah.

Bianca: 22:30

Physical, uh, like, oh yeah. Visible. Yeah. I know. That's so hard. Um, something that's more readily acceptable as a cause of death.

Monique: 22:38

Yes, yes, yes. And they would say, you know, I don't know how you're managing. And I think the only common ground I could say to them was I watched my father suffer. I didn't have to, you know, change a colostomy bag or there was never a hospital bed in the home. We didn't have, you know, he didn't need help taking a bath, but I watched somebody I loved deeply suffer. Yeah. Because they, medications weren't working therapies weren't working. So to me, how was that different than seeing somebody with like a let's call it like a physically deteriorating illness yeah. Where they can't walk or they can't eat or they can't speak, but no, we, we collectively saw him suffer. We also saw him succeed and live a beautiful life. But, but those were parts of his and our family's kind of cycle. Like. Up down, up, down. It's not, it's not like all of a sudden he couldn't walk one day, but you, you saw. Yeah. And I think anybody that has somebody that they love or somebody that they're they're, that is a part of their life that suffers with mental illness. Like you see, you see the cycles sometimes and you feel helpless because you realize that they're trying to take care of themselves. My father experience was that he had with complete family support, gone, um, and taken himself to hospital because he identified that he was not feeling well. Oh, I don't know why am I getting a knot in my stomach saying these things, but like, yeah, he probably had suicidal ideation. And we also know that when people are put on different medications and some of the side effects of these medications that are supposed to be helpful are the, the, the increase in suicidal ideation. So he was, had enough support around him and was mindful enough to say, I am not feeling well. And he took himself to hospital. So again, like I was seeing somebody I love so deeply try their freaking best to take care of themselves and to get them what they needed and they still died, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't less shocking for me. It was my biggest fear. One of the biggest things I've learned, and I, and I'm grateful for having lived

this is that I always thought to myself: 25:29

if I plan my reaction or if I plan how I'd manage getting that phone call, or if I think about opening a door and finding my father dead or somebody, I thought I was doing myself a favor in kind of mapping it out and preparing myself for the worst case scenario. There's no point don't run through those scenarios because when it hits, I could have never, I could have never thought about the it's the mad truck. Yeah. It's out of your control. Exactly. So what value in me running through those scenarios, thinking I was prepping myself. It was only putting my own body into duress and bringing anxiety and bringing stress. Trust that you have enough faith in yourself, an amazing support system around you and access to resources that whenever something happens, and it doesn't need to be as extreme as losing somebody to suicide, or it doesn't have to always relate to grief, but I've pulled this along. Just have confidence in yourself that you will find the things you have the tools to get you through, whatever you need.

Bianca: 26:50

Yeah. That's beautiful. I agree that that has been, I mean, again, the silver lining's the list. It was, it was one of the things I have the most gratitude that's ever happened to me. I, uh, realized, yeah, you have no idea. And you, you know, my reactions were nothing. What I expected and the grief, I had no idea what it was gonna feel like and all of those things. Um, and I survived it and I survived it after like a, like a whole shit storm. And so sometimes, you know, parents might relate to this, you imagine your child dying and it's a terrible. And A) those intrusive thoughts are normal. And, um, management of them is just that's what's important. Um, and. I think you'll survive it. Like you survived everything. Like you'll do it one day at a time. And you know, you've had a lot of very terrible things happen to you in your life. And you survived all of those too. And it doesn't mean it won't be painful. Monique and I have a, uh, an event coming up and we made our, um, fundraising team called the silver linings.

Monique: 27:58

After we went through a long list of hilarious and inappropriate names,

Bianca: 28:05

inappropriate,

Monique: 28:05

but we landed on silver linings cause it is authentic to our story. Yeah. But

Bianca: 28:10

yeah. And, and there are, and it, I don't wanna rush anybody through the process of whatever thing is causing you, strife and grief right now, and be like the, the toxic positivity pink clouding. You can't land in the gratitude until you feel the shit. Um, but all of those events, you learn a lot from. Monique you said something that I wanted to circle back to around all the places we try to fill in gaps. And I'm curious, um, what you think about, I'm actually gonna say almost all deaths as losing loved ones. There's actually like a lot of unknowns. You don't know what happens in people's final moments if you're not with them and you don't know what they're thinking, you don't know what the sensation was. You don't know what that experience is like. Like how do you think we're separating these? Why is it so much more fascinating for suicide?

Monique: 29:05

Hmm. Maybe because with deaths by suicide, there's this concept that somebody had to go through their own thought process and come to a final decision. Yeah. With a homicide or a car accident there's this… maybe this idea of fate. Or inevitability, I don't know, there's this, this thing, this, this lack of control and with suicide, it seems to be all about control.

Bianca: 29:40

Yeah. So even though that's very not what's happening.

Monique: 29:44

No, no, absolutely. Absolutely. But I, but I, but you asked like in how, wondering how other people who are left to kind of try and piece it together. I, I think it kind of comes down to this, this, this image of control versus not control a decision versus yeah. Not a decision or having no say in the matter.

Bianca: 30:12

The number one question I think I get asked is, well, I know people wanna ask how I can see it in their face, so I just give it to them. I'm like he hanged himself. Um, and the next question is, did he leave a note? Um, Which contrary to popular movies, most people don't leave notes. And if they do, they're written from a place of very unwellness. Yes. Um, so they're nonsensical. They're not like dear whoever, um, because it is not a rational act. So people are not thinking rationally with the exceptions of some of the situations around euthanasia. There are times. Um, but most of the time, it it's not rational or there wasn't as long of a consideration as what we're talking about.

Monique: 31:06

Yes.

Bianca: 31:08

So my dad did not leave an note. Did your dad leave an note?

Monique: 31:11

My dad left a note.

Bianca: 31:14

Oh, get the fuck up. Yeah, there you go. Monique just blew my theory. You no, but she's she is the exception that proves the rule. I think there was only one note of my entire suicide survivor group.

Monique: 31:25

Yeah, I remember. And, and again, thank you because I called you and was just like, well, what do I do now? And you put me in touch with, um, the Distress Centers of Greater Toronto, Toronto. Yeah. Yeah. And they do have a specific grief group for that. And we had to go in, I think it was funny thinking about it now, but we had to go in for a bit of a interview Intake.

Bianca: 31:58

Yeah, yeah. An interview. Yeah. They vet those groups.

Monique: 32:01

They really do. And I was like, who would, who would lie about we failed this . Yeah. But, um, yeah, we had, um, we had an intake meeting. It was my mom and my two brothers. I think I.

Bianca: 32:22

Yeah, no, they were all there. You got your whole family joined in.

Monique: 32:24

Yeah, the whole fam no, I'm trying to think if my, if my sister-in-laws were there and I honestly don't remember, but, um, cuz I've also realized that my brain has just genuinely blocked out some memories. Yeah. Um, and I remember showing a picture of the note to the person that was leading this intake and being like, what does this look right? Is this what other people write? What is again like grasping at straws to, to make sense of anything or again, I always took a very defensive position to my father to protect him, to say: don't. This isn't his story. This isn't how his story ends. This is not the person he is. Don't don't you know, so I was trying to say like, is this normal? Is this, is this rational what he was doing? Does this make sense? Does it follow any kind of pattern? Because I didn't want him to be different. I didn't want him to be anything negative. Yeah. So, um, yes, he did write a note. You saw the urgency. I think that's the only way I can describe it.

Bianca: 33:50

So that, that makes a little more sense in my, in my brain that files suicide thought suicide information that, um, your dad's was a euthanasia-like situation.

Monique: 34:03

I remember talking to you about this and it really made sense to me about how people and families are supported when there's a, a compassionate death versus a death of despair. So yeah, if somebody has been suffering their whole lives and is making the choice to end their life because they're suffering is agreed to by the public and by the medical community that it's unrecoverable it's that, that their quality of life is gonna continue to deteriorate. Then, then yes, we can passionately allow this person to make that choice. And then the support that comes around that grief, it turns into a celebration of life. It's it's, let's talk about all this beautiful, this beautiful human that that gave all of us so much or whatever the circumstances are and has been empowered in their choice because their life is never going to be able to live up to what they were before. And in my father's scenario, I see the exact same thing.

Bianca: 35:16

I do too. For yeah. Your dad feels exactly the same like that. I was like, so it makes sense he would leave an alone. Like he had made a decision, he had left the hospital, he had exhausted his resources. He chose. And he chose as of saying mind as he could with his, with a mental illness.

Monique: 35:36

Yeah. And maybe that's, maybe that is a narrative that might upset other people and my family. But again, it's the one that I, that makes sense to me. I'm trying to be mindful of so many other people's experience with it.

Bianca: 35:54

Yeah. Like I think my dad's entry point causes me a lot of grief because, um, both Monique and I just a background on our politics around this. Like, we both feel, correct me if I'm wrong, but like this is a choice that folks are entitled to make about their body. Um, like any other about their body. And, um, their, you know, part of the removal of the shame is the understanding that it is a choice that every person has the right to make. And my caveat comes in is I would really love for people to be sober, making that choice, um, and making the choice in a sober state. Um, and my dad was not, and he did struggle with mental health. Quietly and you know, it, it, for the outside world, it did not impact his life. Um, he went to work, he worked out, he was, you know, an active husband, active dad, active grandfather, active in the community, like, you know, volunteering. Like he was, he was a really fucking rad guy. And, um, he quietly was suffering and that's made worse by alcohol. And, um, he was over exercising and I would say he had disordered eating. He was very, very fit and underweight for a six, two muscley person. Um, and he was running long distance, which depletes like, you know, distance running is not awesome for your body to do every day. Um, and I think that combination of stress, mental health, um, addiction and active use and being. underfed. Um, and so that makes me sad because in my mind there could be done more. And if he had just like gone to bed and woken up, he wouldn't have been in just like a very depleted state.

Monique: 37:59

But I have the same, um, cycle of thought. Yeah. Do I think it was a choice that he made, obviously? Yeah. Do I think he made it under duress in a very, very bad head space on a bad day? Yes. Do I think he was of clear mind? No, because he was coming out of hospital and he was trying new medications and like, I think he was leveling out. He, his death was so close to his discharge from the hospital that they investigated it. Because I think it's, it was the rule is if it, if somebody dies within two weeks of discharge, it still falls under the hospital's kind of, I don't wanna say jurisdiction, but like the, the...

Bianca: 38:51

Yeah. Responsibility. Yeah. Wasn't it. Within the first 24 hours?

Monique: 38:56

No, no, it was like in 10 days or something. Oh. Um, but uh, I also learned after the fact that the first two weeks after hospital discharge, uh, are the highest rates of, uh, of suicide when people leave, uh, the psychiatric ward. I did not do that. I did not know at the time. Uh, he should have been under closer supervision or different supervision, or he was, it's not like he was having a great day and a great run of days. And this came out of the blue. He was in a very dark place where his, his logic and reasoning where enough for him to want to go into the hospital to seek treatment and yeah. Uh, but he was also like, depressed people aren't dumb.

Bianca: 39:53

Yeah.

Monique: 39:54

So depressed people, like he wanted to get out of the hospital, so he knew what to say to leave. Yeah. um, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he was ready or healthy enough to do so. Yeah. So there are all these other, you know, conditions that come around with, um, psychiatric care, which is not even close to being at par.

Bianca: 40:21

Oh, my God. It's so terrible.

Monique: 40:23

The intake is inhumane. Your treatment there is inhumane.

Bianca: 40:27

The wards! Oh, it, look, they look like prisons. I've had several form friends who have formed themselves. Yes. And the experiences they tell me are comparable to jail. And two of them formed themselves, um, with postpartum crises. And then they were, well, one of my friends, she wrote

a book about it: 40:50

Day Nine. Um, and she was, was locked up for the summer and like, she didn't get her baby. And, um, she was put in with folks with very like a very big range of mental health needs. And so I was like, you, you putting somebody who is struggling with anxiety, depression in with somebody who's having a schizophrenic disassociated of state. They're not a population to mix.

Monique: 41:23

That's right. My dad would say, we'd chat on the phone or we'd go for a walk. He's like, I don't belong in here. He would tell me stories of one of his, his neighbors could go on these trips and hallucinate and he would talk to my dad for hours about it. And my dad's like, no, this is not where I should be coming to heal. This is very different. And those two scenarios should be treated very differently. But yeah, you put somebody in on a form, everything is taken away from you. Couldn't shave his face. Couldn't wash his body. He, you know, they took his pant belt away from him. Uh, he had to give permission to leave, to go for a walk, all these things, but like, why is that the same treatment as somebody that's having like a schizophrenic episode?

Bianca: 42:11

Yeah, no, it's, um, our it's, it's terrible. It's terrible globally. Um, the wards are terrible. The treatments are terrible. We have a history of the most important things done, um, to folks with mental health stuff. I was flying home from Spain last week. There was an article that I was reading on the plane that, um, some folks are trying to petition some, um, recent, uh, laws around euthanasia. Mm. And I believe we were, it was in Canada and the article cover was a, a man holding a photo. Um, and he said the photo of his sister and she looked quite young, like child young. And I was like, Ooh, you know? And, um, and then I read the article and I was like, oh, the media you're such a dick. Sometimes. Um, the, the photo was of his sister as a child and she was a 50-something year old woman. So I was like, that feels like a very curious choice. Um, but it was this like, see, this is what could happen with euthanasia. We knew it was gonna start getting loosey goosey and not just terminal illnesses, because she had been suffering with a very serious mental health illness her whole life and did get permission and, um, died. And he was furious. And then there was all the people whose like families had died with mental health related things, and they're not calling that terminal. And so they did not think that their family members, um, should be granted the privilege of death with the support of a physician. And so I do have some conditions cuz it's funny listening to you now that I was. Yeah, your dad had had, um, a diagnosed multiple treatment medication, like exploration. So I'd be like, he had a lot of cancer, we're gonna do that. And then I was like, my dad just had a little bit of cancer. Nobody even knew about cuz he wasn't on any mental health support. He, I don't know, probably saw a marriage counselor and shit with my mom, but like he, he didn't have a regular therapist. Um, and we didn't talk about it. It wasn't an issue. So it didn't feel the same. He just said like a little bit of cancer. And so then for him to make that choice as like, oh, I wish you had just been sober. You would've been fine. Right. And that's, again, this is the rational of, and that's how my brain files our dads. Yes. And the same thing with, uh, Amy's dad, who she lost her dad to a death of despair that I was like, it was just alcohol. And we all know alcohol is a depressant. So like, it is hard to say, but like we also know addiction and mental health is a, they're a twisty beast.

Monique: 45:09

Yeah. But I wonder too, if, as a part of grief, uh, I'll give you an example. My grandfather lived a long life. Um, but essentially he ended up dying cuz of complications to being in the ICU and bed sores got infected and you know, lot with like elderly care. Right. You kind of the, you die because it's a

Bianca: 45:38

cascade

Monique: 45:38

combination. Yeah, exactly. A cascade of other things. And so I remember when he passed away being like, oh, if only they had cleaned his sores or if only we had, he had gone in for that checkup a little earlier, then maybe it would've been different and maybe this and maybe that. So I think that's a part of, of natural grief. And again, I think it comes down to just missing somebody that you love.

Bianca: 46:10

Yeah, for sure.

Monique: 46:11

But yeah, with suicide, there's just way too there's way too many. I remember saying... cuz again, like I was in Los Angeles, I was away. I was starting a new job was so excited. Um, uh, and he was excited for me. I have this voicemail that somehow is still saved on my phone and it's so going of my prize possessions. And he's just like, he called me Mo as most of the people that love me call me, but he's just like"Mo it's dad.I'm so proud of you. I'm telling everybody, but your new job" And... Uh, yeah, it's just, it's like my favorite thing. What also a super heartbreaking thing to listen to, but I'm glad I have it. It leaves, it comes down to just missing somebody you love so much.

Bianca: 47:06

Yeah, for sure.

Monique: 47:07

And that's painful no matter how that person leaves their physical body.

Bianca: 47:14

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Grief is, Ugh. It's just such a journey, such a journey. It's loops back around spiny, around. We march along.

Monique: 47:26

And when you invited me on to the podcast, I said, can you give me an idea of, of how you'd like the, the conversation structured and my rage, because I did feel rage and I do still sometimes feel absolute rage that this is a part of my family's story. Yeah. And unfortunately it is. At the end of my father's story. And I even have that embedded stigma and I fight with myself constantly about it, but I became obsessed. We talked about changing the narrative a bit about speaking really openly about it, speaking about it with no shame. So that that opened the, the door and the conversation for other people that either had experienced it or will experience it in their life. But there was another thing that I became fixated on, and that was this, there were not resources in hospital for coping plans after being discharged. Mm-hmm . And I remember sitting with his doctors and it was a panel. It was a panel of doctors because everybody gets afraid when the family wants to meet afterwards, right?

Bianca: 48:46

Of course, litigation.

Monique: 48:47

That's right. I learned that that those two weeks after discharge are some of the highest risk.

And I thought to myself: 48:54

Hey hospital, we, as a family were coming to see my dad every day. Somebody from the family was always there. He had a support system, he had structure, every resource, everything I've Googled after, paints, this picture of like isolated souls, people that don't have the resources that they need. No, my, my father, by definition of what it doesn't fit in any of those categories. And yet he still kind of falls into that box. So wait a second. You've you see people who have been putting their hand up to the doctors with him in the room saying, how can we be helpful? How can we help him? Because he's gonna leave and... What kind of support do we need? So after he, he died, I felt so strongly."I'm like, I need to fix this." And if you become too obsessed, there's like way too much to fix in our mental health system. That's an understatement, essentially what came out of that was a booklet, which I can't even say that I'm proud of, but I'm proud of it because I'm not proud of it because there's so much more work that needs to go into it. Uh, I am proud of it because it's a resource that exists now that doesn't had never existed before. And what it is is for, if you have somebody that you love that has, uh, made a suicide attempt, and it kind of takes you through what to look for, how to be a good resource. The hospital now makes patients go through these coping cards and it's like, who are you gonna call? What resources do you have? And I'm trying to advocate for those that coping card or those systems to be mandatory because so much of mental healthcare is kind of protected by that shield of patient doctor, patient confidentiality. And it makes steam come out of my ears because these folks need support. And not only did the patients need support, but the, the loved ones. And I, you know, I'm, I'm trying to be conscious, not necessarily to say family members, because families, as we both know, are made up of all different kinds of people. And they're not always your family of origin. So their support people need to also be supported. And those people need to know where they can go. To get the support that they need because taking care of somebody who's suffering with a mental health issue, it, it requires care. Yes. And yeah. And that takes a lot. It does. So all of those things, I'm slowly trying to have an impact on having a positive change in, but I will also preface this by I I'm now on the, um, uh, it's a, like a volunteer advisory board at the hospital where my father was seen last. Um, and I'll tell you working on this booklet and being on these board meetings where we don't just talk about suicide. We talk about a whole department of care. It takes so much out of me. Yeah. And so I feel very conflicted that I need to plow forward with this. Fueled by rage fueled by my grief, fueled by my sadness, fueled by the love of my father and missing him so much that I need to make meaningful and drastic change. But boy, oh boy, does it still hurt? And is that heavy? Yeah. So I've been trying to give myself a little bit more grace and that comes with the support of people like you. My, my therapist, my family of you can have great ambitions to do beautiful things, but moving the, the needle, even an inch is something to be really proud of. And if you try and take on everything, you're never gonna feel like you've succeeded at it. So baby steps.

Bianca: 53:27

Yeah, super baby steps. That's how I feel. I mean, I've dedicated the last 15 years of my life to move the reproductive health and justice needle. I have helped lots of families and trained lots of practitioners that go out and do really great work with families. But every time I see, um, the terrible reports of what's coming out of the hospitals, I was like, fuck, I haven't moved it at all. Um, it's hard. It's really hard. And resources are a really great start. Um, having these kind of conversations, mental health support. It's very hard to access. And we recognize that. And here at Bebo Mia, we provide all of our students and alumni ongoing, um, mental health support as they go through our programs because, you know, talking about anything related to healthcare or, um, birth trauma or any of the isms that are happening in our healthcare system, it can be a lot to hold. And then for our tea or our students at alumni, they were now out in the hospitals and, and they're having the experience of secondary trauma. And so it's very important to us that they have access to free care. Um, so we build that into all of our programs. We're really proud of that part because it's a, for some people, it might be the first, um, experience they have with a professional providing mental health support to them. Um, and then if, if you know, our students are flagged that they might need a little bit more than. They would find care in their communities. Um, but you know, resources like that because I know Monique and I went to a conference. It was before COVID. So must have been at least three years ago. Well, yeah. Um, you, it was fairly short after you had lost your dad and we were having, they separated everybody at the conference into like who you had lost because the grief of losing a child versus a friend versus a parent or a spouse is all different. So Monique and I found ourself in the dad's room. Um, and I was surprised to hear which we then spent at lunch together. All the people who had lost their dads or parents, but they just mostly, I think there was only two moms and all the rest were dads. Um, that the experience of that two week window had, I think there was at least three people, two were from the same hospital as your dads. Um, that had the exact same experience. And nobody told the family that that two weeks is a, is a precarious one. Um, so I think even just you getting that information to more people is profound.

Monique: 56:04

Yeah. And even thinking back to it, I'm filled with rage.

Bianca: 56:10

Oh yeah. This is also why we put this in season one. Cause I was like, well, September is suicide prevention month and it's very rage filled rage at the systems, rage at the patriarchy rage at our grief, um, rage at the failings of people, rage at your families or how everybody, you know, my family fell apart after that. There's a, there's a lot to be mad about. Totally. And, um, our mental health system, especially for folks who identify as women. Um, it's super failing us. I, I don't wanna minimize it's terrible for everybody like everything is, but women take the brunt of it. Um, there's a lot of fear of disclosure again. Um, Meg and Lacey had a really great chat about this on our social media. You can find that, um, talking about it because we always have the fear of losing our children. If we disclose a mental health crisis, you know, some places you do, some places they'll be in care with a family member, but like it's a real fear. Um, it's not unfounded. And so a lot of times, um, folks aren't disclosing that they're having more serious, uh, mental health crises. And then that's how we have, suicide's a leading death of new mothers in their first year.

Monique: 57:30

It is absolutely bonkers, but it goes back to those It goes back to the optics of it, all. The stigma around mental health, just because somebody's suffering with mental health issues does not mean that they're completely shutting down.

Bianca: 57:49

Yeah. They're literally living their life like everybody else in the most case.

Monique: 57:53

Wildly functional . Yeah. And oftentimes insanely successful in the cases of even our dads, but like to not have the safety or security or too much stigma, even within themselves of opening that part of their life up to say, I need a, I'm so great. Or I am doing well by outward standards and all of these other categories of my life. But I need a little bit of a hand here, cuz I'm not managing it well on my own. That's that takes big guts. That takes big, big, big guts. And then, and then when you say it, when you do have the courage to open up to friends or family or doctors, if there aren't enough resources, oh my God. Let's talk about another thing I'm absolutely raged at was

Bianca: 58:51

give it to me.

Monique: 58:53

was when finally somebody does have the courage to say, I need a hand that our healthcare system says, cool, I'm gonna put you on this nine month wait list. And then you're gonna have to go and interview, take an intake interview, tell this stranger, all the things that you finally had the courage to say to me, and then they're gonna make another assessment. And then you start again from scratch over there. Oh yeah. Also we can expedite this a little bit. If you have some cash to maybe move you up on the wait list by like a month or two. What is that?!

Bianca: 59:27

Yeah, it's bonkers

Monique: 59:28

What is that?! I'm going to give the company I work for a lot of credit because they have been so supportive in my mental healthcare, but it took me going to somebody in a leadership position to say, I need the support. I need the support for me to be here for, to be great at my job, but also to be great outside. Yeah. And they said absolutely. And so grateful that when I got that phone call and this most horrible day of my life happened, I had already been seeing my therapist for like two and a half years. I had the tools in my toolkit. I didn't have to go and wait on a wait list. I didn't have to go download an app to try and navigate, to find out if I had chemistry with a counselor or do I like to text, like I didn't have to navigate. Through my grief in trying to find my resources. And that's why I'm trying to, with the little influence that I have is try and set people up to, to know where their resources are before. But on top of that, which I'm trying to impact in small ways, but like make things a little bit more accessible. So that's raising money for charity, raising money for resources. If I were able to take every dollar of income that I had, I would give it to people so that they had access to just even talk therapy because yeah, if some people are lucky enough to have healthcare through a company, just like, um, you know, you get RMT therapy, 500 bucks a year, you get the, you know, psychological services, $500 a year. What is that? Three and a half appointments. Come on. If that, if you've got a very affordable therapist and that's exactly, and that's, even if you can find a therapist after a super, super long wait list, so, and then you get you get to your assigned therapist after waiting three or four or six, however long months, and then you just don't have chemistry with that person. Well, why would anyone keep going? Like, there are so many blocks there that are, that are not helping open the dialogue they're stopping it. They're stifling it they're continuing to build, I think, shame around it. I guess, unless you're an extreme case, you have to be put into a hospital on a form. You're like, well, do I really need this resource? The answer is likely yes. And it should be available to you and to everybody, as many people, as often as they need it. And I'm determined to, to impact that in some way, positively moving forward.

Bianca: 1:02:30

And thank you for doing that, cuz we need more folks champion it. I also don't love that GPs tend to be the first and then last touchpoint for mental health. Um, and so people go in and say, they're having some issues with anxiety, depression, or whatever. And then the GP is, is doing the job of a psychiatrist in that they're writing a script or giving a sample of whoever pharmaceutical is. Given them some kickback perky package thing. Um, and then I'm like that actually can't be the extent of taking a chemical approach to this person's mental health support. Sometimes it definitely doesn't need a chemical approach and there's lots of other things that we can be doing, um, or the difference between chronic and AC acute and, um, things that are chemically based that absolutely need a pharmaceutical approach. Um, and so that's the other part that I was like, oh, and then they just send people home and then they're not seeing anybody. Um, the number of my friends that are like, well, I think I'm a little bit down. I'm gonna ask my family doctor about this. And I was like, why are we asking our family doctors about this? They're the first kind of like screening for things and then they should send to specialists and it's just not happening again. Some family doctors, thank you for doing that. And you're great. And the very first thing is like, let me get you an appointment with a psychiatrist. Um, but most often, um, my friends come home with a script for like a, a test pack or like, I was like, all of these things require a lot of titration up monitoring. Like it needs to be a multimodality approach. And like, we can't even get in with the wait list for one modality, let alone ensuring that we're dealing with mind and body. Like it's not just "change the chemistry." Um, a lot of this mental health stuff does come from trauma and does even physical ailments lead to mental health crises and mental health crises lead to physical ailment ailments. It's a, it's a very big, hot mess and I'm disappointed. And one of the main resources that I think we are lacking in Canada, especially, um, is survivor groups. I think Ontario, I think there might be one in the prairies, but I wanna do a super hot tip to the distress center of greater Toronto. Um, they were the most incredible resource they're free. Um, I think I've raised about $6,000 for them since my dad's death, like as an individual or donated, um, and. Like Monique said, I would continue to pour money into that because it's the only place where you have a support group where you sit in a circle and like, talk about things. There's individual counseling, there's family counseling. I took advantage of all of that as did Monique. Um, but there's nothing else. But the State has lots, uh, a lot, actually the American foundation.

Monique: 1:05:29

Yeah. It's a resource you never want people to have to yeah. Have access to or even know about. But the reality is is you and I aren't going, going to solve this

Bianca: 1:05:41

cool girl club.

Monique: 1:05:42

Yeah. We're not gonna solve this in the next 15 to 20 minutes. So, um, uh, yeah, I, I'm so grateful for those support groups. I'm grateful for you because you know, too, is that you had...

Context: 1:06:03

So I, I dated Bianca's cousin.

Bianca: 1:06:08

I won her in the divorce. Excellent.

Monique: 1:06:12

I did.

Bianca: 1:06:12

I really won that lottery.

Monique: 1:06:15

Um, uh, yeah, so, so I dated one of your cousins, which is how you and I, uh, got to cross paths. And if you hadn't have shared with me, like my father hadn't passed away, I had a healthy, happy dad. Um, yep. But like, I wouldn't have had anyone to call. So if you hadn't have been open with me, I, I would've, I don't even know that I would've gotten to the distress center and to, to those support groups. Um, and those very specific support groups, because I wouldn't have known who to call. I would've done some furious fiery Googling, which would've sent me down all kinds of rabbit holes.

Bianca: 1:06:56

Oh, that's bad. Don't do it.

Monique: 1:06:56

Yeah. Don't don't do it. Don't do the Google yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the, uh, this, I don't know how to, how to phrase this. One of the nicest things that happened to me and me being open was me getting that phone call from somebody. And I never wanted to be that person. Let's be clear. I don't ever want anyone to come. If you hadn't have helped me, I wouldn't have been able to help somebody else. Yeah. And it's because you were so open with your loss, that I was, had the courage to be open with mine. And mm-hmm , I hope at least that is something that can come out of the, the pain and rage and all those things, because, and I don't know if you found this after your dad died, but nobody knew how to talk to me. Everybody was trying to tell me, even if they had lost a parent. It gets better. It gets easier. It gets, I'm like stop talking to me. If you're trying to tell me right now that it's gonna get better, I'm not gonna feel like this anymore. You are not understanding my pain. And that made me isolate from those people. And I had to constantly remind myself that these people that love you are saying these things because they love you. And they want to alleviate some of this pain from you.

Bianca: 1:08:24

I remember saying to my therapist, well, cuz sometimes people would even be like, oh my mom attempted, when I was in high school, I was like, well that's fucking great for you cuz your mom's still alive. My dad attempted and succeeded. So like we're not the same or people like, yeah, I lost my dad a couple years ago to cancer. I was like, it's not the same in the moment. And um, I remember telling my therapist and I'm like, I'm finding these trite comforting things like they're just making me so fucking mad. And then after I didn't like break up with a therapist, but she's the therapist for the national ballet. So that was like taking her full thing. So she's like, let go of her clients, which was fine. Um, and at the end she said something about like losing her dad to suicide and I was like, wait, why did you ever tell me that? And cuz she's like also a dyke with a half black kid. And I was like, we're like, you're me in 30 years. Like why did, why didn't you share that with me? She's like, well, I was gonna share with you, but that week you were furious and you didn't wanna hear people's comparison stories. And I was like, oh. That's fair. That was responsible of you's like, I, I just wanted to share that with you now that we're like breaking up. Um, but no, that, I super agree that I found those things. Um, not at all helpful. I did love my survivors group the most, but then as I started going to survivor stuff later, like when we, and I went to the conference, um, it was interesting that the people that I remember from my group that were still like, felt like they were back at could have people would've thought they lost their loved one in like the last six months. But it had been six years at, by that time I felt frustrated with those spaces. So like, you haven't done anything, you haven't moved a I'm sad for you cuz it means you're suffering. And B we've got a fucking mission here, but that's how I tackle everything. It's no surprise.

Monique: 1:10:14

Yes. Yeah. There. There are days I remember asking my therapist, be like, where, where am I on the grief cycle? Can you let me know? And she just kind of looked at me and laughed and she's like, you know, that's not how this work. I was like, oh, I know it's not a cycle. It's a loop back, go around, loop back, go around, stop, forget about it. Feel real calm and good. And then be like, oh my God, I'm so mad. Yep. I I'm going back to some of the first feelings I felt when I got that call. My first thought was it's okay, dad? I understand. The second one was, who's gonna dance with me at my wedding. Oh, right. And then I was like, wait a second. and then just kind of mapping out all these things in my life where. We're told they're supposed to be so happy or, or I spent my life thinking about these moments and then the gravity of the situation that this is physically impossible. It's not something I can solve my way out of. It's not something I'm great at negotiating. My way out of none of my skill set is going to solve this for me. I, we had a really exciting announcement in the family. My brother and sister are expecting their first baby and I cried. I cried because I yearn for the days where, when we were younger, we could seemingly feel one emotion at a time. I hurt my toe. I'm in pain. Ouch. This is so many emotions at the same time. Whether it be, you know, I'm so excited for them because they're so excited. And I was full of rage at my father because he is not here. And then that just sent me down a real quick hill in, in a not great direction. And yeah, there is pressure that we put on ourselves and maybe other people to say, like, I guess it's not acceptable anymore to fall on the ground and cry, but I wanted to do the same thing three years later.

Bianca: 1:12:33

Yeah. Oh yeah. We, well, everything with support. Like it's the same thing with postpartum that everyone's real excited and they come visit the new parents and the baby and, um, there's food coming and cute gifts. And then it's like, oh, it's been three weeks with a new baby. We're done with that. And it's the same thing with grief that there's like a 10 day where, you know, your friends, text you and everyone checks in on you. And then it stops.

Monique: 1:12:56

I think for me instead of... I'm also very mindful of how now I now communicate with people who are in grief.

Bianca: 1:13:05

Oh yeah.

Monique: 1:13:06

And for me, the, um, best thing to hear from other people was always to acknowledge how horrible it is. Yeah. This sucks. I'm not gonna sugarcoat this for you. I, I wanna take this pain away from you really badly. And I know that I probably can't, but I really wanna acknowledge that I see the pain that you're in and I wanna acknowledge that I don't see a lot of your grief and how heavy that must feel. I didn't wanna be told it was gonna get better. I even, I get really mad too, around the anniversary of his death, which is a date that I hilariously can never remember. The reason I get upset about it is because then I start to get defensive about my dad. Again, I'm like, why is this the day that you choose to remember him? Why his life was 62 years of amazing things. He was a fantastic father. He was a successful business owner, uh, operator. He was a funny, he brought people together, stop reminding me and I get it. It's the thing that people put in their calendars to acknowledge something that is very difficult for a friend or somebody that they love. But it's not the way that I feel loved. And it took me a while. To articulate that to the people that love me. People don't know what to do with grief in general, because we, as a Western society, don't really acknowledge death.

Bianca: 1:14:42

Well, we handle death so poorly.

Monique: 1:14:45

And then you add suicide on top of it.

People are like: 1:14:47

Ugh! Spinning in a circle. They're buying you books. They're there, you know, here's a journal

Bianca: 1:14:54

or they just don't talk about it.

Monique: 1:14:56

Oh yeah. That, that too, that too. But don't look at it. It'll go away. Yeah. It certainly doesn't go away. But, and that has changed the way I look back at people that have lost parents that just lost people that they love. And it's like, wow. I don't think I supported that person in the way. Or people always say, I, you know, I, I lost somebody to suicide. How can I help somebody else? How can I help their sibling? How can I help their kid? And you say,

Bianca: 1:15:26

Make a donation to the distress center.

Monique: 1:15:28

Well, well, there's that always, but also ask them the support that they need.

Bianca: 1:15:34

Bring them food. It's the same thing as having a new baby, like grief, any major change. And now I laugh at like people who, or when I did well, I don't know if I ever did cause I had a baby so young. Um, but like when people dropped off like stuffed animals to new parents, I was like, get them a day of house cleaning, bring them food. They don't need a fucking Teddy bear or another weird onesie. Like they need help. They need you to come do their laundry. They need you to clean their bathroom. They need you to buy an at home massage. Like they need care. And so that's in grief. Or just come over and like not talk. Cause that was the other thing when people like, oh, come by and I was like, but then we have to like chat and I don't want to.

Monique: 1:16:17

I don't need you to map me through this. I just need you to hear what I'm feeling right now. I don't need you to solve it for me. I don't need you to pick me up right now, but also ask the person the support that they need. And if they can articulate it, listen to them. I, yeah, I wanna feel supported every day. I don't want you to check in on the anniversary of his death, cuz I miss my dad the same amount every single day. It doesn't get worse on the day. That is the anniversary of his death. It doesn't get worse around the holidays because I don't have those family traditions around holidays because I grew up Jehova's Witness. Well, I just don't. I just don't have maybe the same memories that other people, but again, I always try to empathize with the person that's coming at me with their support. It's like, well, they must have traditions and they're trying to put themselves in my shoes. And so they're reaching out, but. I find that the grief doesn't come back on anniversaries. It's every day they're carrying it every day and they're learning to manage it every day. So check in on them randomly. Yeah, because sometimes my hard day was like, Billy Joel would come on them in the middle of a Workday. Oh. And then I would crumble to the ground. And sometimes those are amazing things that happen. And I get so excited to heal, hear Billy Joel or the roar of a Harley or, you know, sometimes a memory just gets triggered in your head and it can go either way, it can be full of joy or it can bring you intense amounts of pain. And sometimes it's both. So yeah, I have, and this is another silver lining to this is when you go through trauma. I had a relationship that that relationship ended right before my father passed. Then my father passed. I had every. Like kind of ounce of reality of what I thought was to be true, the structure of my life, the men who loved me, what that meant, who I was relative to those relationships, it all kind of crumbled within three months. And I was, felt like a spinning top. But let me tell you that the friends and family that saw me through that, they've gone through fire with me. They, the, those are my people. And unfortunately, when you go through big traumas, it's a bit of a sink or swim with, with the people in your lives. You realize who has the lip service of saying, you know, call me if you need anything. And then when you call them or you do need them in a distressful time, they don't have the tools to support you. And that is also fine. Like, yeah, it's hard though, because you're grieving a lot of losses in that time, cuz you're also realizing who or what your support system might be. But let me tell you that the value that I have found in navigating that and coming through the other side of it, it's reinforced who my people are and going back to that toolbox of resources and confidence in myself to know that if something traumatic happens again in my life, and it inevitably will, I have faith in myself, in my resources, in my people to know that we can collectively navigate it. And I'm so grateful for those things. And you are a big part of that, of that fabric and that, that

Bianca: 1:20:02

thank you.

Monique: 1:20:03

Toolbox.

Bianca: 1:20:03

Well, fortunately, my life burned down last year and I got to lean on you. It all came full circle. Um, It is true having your community. And if folks don't have the capacity or the space to do it, it's also the most generous thing to tell your loved one that you don't have the space. So make sure that we're always asking consent in those dyads. Um, cuz it is really important cause otherwise everyone's really disappointed and the person's not getting the care they need and the other person doesn't have the capacity to give that care. And it will go in cycles. When you have long term relationships building, um, a community with folks who have that lived experience with you is really important. So like Monique and I were saying, there's not enough resources for people who are survivors of a loss from suicide. There are some virtual supports. We will have some in the show notes. Um, the American foundation is also really great. Um, for those of you in the US, cause I know most of our listeners are, um, again, we're just gonna keep saying how much we love the distress centers of greater Toronto. Um, you could always donate to them. They've got events, they do auctions. There's lots of cool stuff. Um, but you can find stuff for your state or your province or your country. And if you are having, um, suicidal ideation, I think normalizing that part, or if somebody discloses, it does not mean you need to rush them off to form them. You might need to ask a couple follow up questions, guide them to some mental health resources, but suicidal ideation is a very normal part of human existence. And a lot of times it can mean we're just really tired. Um, it can also be a sign of, um, that we're having a mental health concern or a mental health crisis. Um, but I don't think we need to be scared if you have had the idea of like the comfort of suicide or the desire to, you know, drive your car into a median because you are really, really tired. So tired. It's just when we start getting to chronic ideation or when we have some planning or those kind of issues. Um, but if you're not sure there's lots of anonymous tip lines that you can reach out and get support. Um, and we have, you know, all the countries have theirs. So we'll also put those phone numbers in the show notes. Please reach out for help if you do need support. Um, and if you would like to start building a little bit more community in your local region for survivors, we encourage you to do that. Um, it can be informal. It can be a, a phone line. It could be, you know, whatever you want to, but, um, linking up with other people it's really, really helpful, um, because they do have that lived experience. And so I know, I love that. I, I mean, I was very sad that Monique joined the club, but I was like, oh good. I have a, I have a friend in the club now. I mean, I wish you weren't, but...

Monique: 1:23:00

Yes. Yeah. You never love to see a new member.

Bianca: 1:23:04

No.

Monique: 1:23:05

Of the death by suicide club or the DDCS. We, I affectionately call our sub sub subgroup of suicide survivors.

Bianca: 1:23:18

Oh man. Oh. And you know, it's okay to laugh. It is you, you have to laugh. You can't stay in the dark all the time. It's, it's real heavy, everything, you know, this is what we talk about. All the time here at Bebo Mia, that we need to feel the rage. We need to feel the grief. We need to feel the sadness. We need to be fucking furious at the patriarchy and capitalism and you know, all of it. And you have to make room for joy. You'll find your people that like doing the thing that they like to do. Some people like to do lots of ceremonies and are some people like to, you know, spend, they have their gang that they get together with and you sit in the grief. I just wanted to flag. One of the things that I like is, um, around language is I have adopted the term death by suicide rather than commit suicide. What are some of the other ones that are commonly used in the media? Yeah, it's usually committed suicide. Um, and I felt, um, when I first heard the term death by suicide, that it put it in the same thing as a cause of death. Um, rather than an act. and there's a lot of room for nuance with suicide. So even if in your head you were like, well, it is an act and I'm like, it is and it isn't. Especially when we're now lumping, um, you know, the many, the many ways that people would make the act of conscious or seemingly conscious choice to end their lives. Um, so I like that if, um, I guide people to use that, I wish the media would use it more. Um, and I think it removes some of the stigma and shame around it. And, um, don't say unkind things about suicide to people. Well, you don't know how actually who's lost somebody, but sometimes you hear about that it's weak or it's the easy way out or it's selfish. Um, and it's none of those things. It would be selfish of us to ask our loved one to stay when they don't want to anymore.

Monique: 1:25:18

Yep.

Bianca: 1:25:19

You know, those things, I would just invite you to reconsider some of the things as well as terms like, fuck my life or gestures of suicide when you're feeling stressed. Um, I think we could then honor it as an, an act and a choice as well as the act and choice to live. Um, they're both honorable and, um, I think we can just be a little more cautious and, uh, careful around those. So if anything else, if you flag that, um, I would also love to see trigger warnings in, um, I don't know, maybe you have some pull over at Netflix for, for some reason.

Monique: 1:25:56

yeah, I wish

Bianca: 1:25:58

I wish, um, up in the drug use and sex, like why suicide is not on there. And last night I started a new book. I only managed to read three pages. The entire three pages were about hanging, um, and suicide. So I was like, Hmm, I'm gonna just go to sleep instead. But it was the first time I saw content warning at the beginning of a book, I read about 200 books a year. So as a super avid reader, I have never had a content warning at the beginning of a book. And it's everywhere.

Monique: 1:26:30

And the funny thing is, is that, I don't know if you found this, but I never knew what was gonna be my trigger.

Bianca: 1:26:37

Oh yeah, no. Sometimes I can literally like somebody could talk about it or I could whatever, but then sometimes in a movie it'll like be in the background and I like, feel like I'm gonna die.

Monique: 1:26:45

Yes. Even I found if suicide was implied and not shown.

Bianca: 1:26:49

Yeah, that's almost worse.

Monique: 1:26:51

Yes. Because then my head went to places and then I was in like a visualization cycle that I couldn't manage. PTSD is real. Especially the people that have that found their loved ones.

Bianca: 1:27:03

Um, I actually would like to challenge everybody. So, you know, like once you buy a car, you see it everywhere and then you think everyone has that car. Um, so if you haven't lost somebody to death by suicide, you might not have the radar up. Um, but over the next week, after listening to this very long conversation with Monique and I, um, I would like you to notice if, because I would say every book I read has either mention of it, if not an act or an intent, um, I would say almost every TV show and movie I have references it or shows it. Even if it's just in passing. So I would challenge you to see if you have five shows this week. That don't, I mean, if you're watching, like, I dunno, drag race or something, maybe not, but I don't watch reality TV shows, but

Monique: 1:27:52

Paw Patrol is notoriously light on the suicidal references.

Bianca: 1:27:56

Yeah. But like, but all fam like all things, um, I would, I would be hard pressed in a week to find something that I was like, oh, that book had no mention of it. I, I don't have them. And I read like a very wide range of types of books and, um, it's, it's everywhere and we're yet still not talking about it. And we're still not putting content warnings. So it's all like a real weird cycle we're in. Yeah. It's um, we do need to be, um, like find a middle ground where we like stop making it, so it stop the stigma of it. But we do have a sensitivity around it. Instead, we do not talk about it and it's riddled with shame, but yet we like have it everywhere, kind of like sex in our society. If you have questions, you can reach out to info@bebomia.com and Kelly will, will put you to the right place, including if you would like to have a question specifically for Monique. And I, um, please check out the show notes. If you need some resources, if you have awesome resources you wanna share, we are always open for you doing that gathering from the community that you have. So if you found a support group, or if you found a mental health resource that was accessible, that you would like to share, or you have an awesome therapist that works specifically around some of these, um, you know, experiences that folks have again, please share that because the more we can gather those resources up, they're very, very helpful. Monique and I always like to have a bunch of them because people do reach out to us. Once you're in that club, um, of survivors. There's a really great event called, uh, Walk through the darkness? You know, something like that. And it happens every year in the states, they pick a new city. I did it in Seattle in 2014. Um, and you walk from sun down to sun up and it was well, Seattle's a rainy cold city. So I was very wet and all the skin came off my feet, but I think I would like to do it and like Texas or something where it's a, it's a warm night instead. Uh, but it's also a very, very beautiful experience. And it has a lot of attempt survivors and, um, lost survivors and there's tens of thousands of people. Um, and it's really beautiful and really healing. So if you do wanna find a community events, um, there's lots big and small. Um, in Toronto here, we have some coming up in September Monique and I will be walking through Hyde park, uh, for our dads and raising money for the distress center here. So if you are resourced, um, either with time or money, there's lots of ways you can give back. And we would love if you did, for other survivors, uh, Monique, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story and doing all the work you do with the resources for folks here in Toronto, who have their families going through our mental health medical system.

Monique: 1:30:54

Thank you Bianca for having me. I love you so much and thank you for the work that you continue to do every day, not just in this area, but you know, for so many other people out there making, making the world seem like a more accessible and comfortable place for everybody on the planet or more people on the planet.

Narrator: 1:31:21

Wanna keep hanging out with us? Find out at bebomia.com or head over to your favorite social media platform with the handle @bebomiainc. We will see you next time on the Hot+Brave podcast.