This week Bianca and Meg interview Darcy Lockman, PhD and author of All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers and the Myth of Equal Partnership to talk about the division of labor at home, the world we live in, and how to use this book to have productive conversations that help us move forward for a more equitable world that benefits ourselves, our partners and everyone in our families.
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This week Bianca and Meg interview Darcy Lockman, PhD and author of All the Rage: Mothers, Fathers and the Myth of Equal Partnership to talk about the division of labor at home, the world we live in, and how to use this book to have productive conversations that help us move forward for a more equitable world that benefits ourselves, our partners and everyone in our families.
www.bebomia.com
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube, Pinterest, LinkedIn or Twitter.
In reality, we didn't build society. None of us did. Right? Who knows how societies and cultures get built? But it not by not by us individually. So once we are relieved of some responsibility for the patterns we're acting out, hopefully we can really sit down together and like kind of interrogate what's going on with some good humor and then also the ability to shift the division of labor. To really hear one another, instead of blaming one another, which is so easy to do.
Narrator:You are listening to the Hot+Brave podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you'll hear brave stories, hot topics, and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the you need for your soul.
Bianca:Hi everyone. And welcome to the Hot+Brave podcast. I'm your host, Bianca Sprague. I'm joined by Meg Kant. We would love for you to join us in one of our webinars this week. We have one tonight. We have a couple next week, and those are all about how you can get access to our Maternal Support Practitioner certification, which is our three in one doula training. And we also have our Feminist Birth Worker Business School. So you can get your business off the ground because we know you have great skills and you love what you do, but sometimes it's hard to get in front of our clients. So we'll teach you how to do that. Jump in those free workshops, head over to the website to find out more. Meg and I had the absolute pleasure of interviewing Darcy Lockman PhD last week. And we are going to share this conversation with you today around Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership. Or shall we say unequal partnership? And this is something that we hear from all of you, just that you're mad, you're mad all the time. So let's jump into that. Thanks everyone for joining us today. Welcome Darcy. We're very excited to have you.
Darcy:Thank you, Bianca and Meg. I am very excited to be here.
Bianca:Um, as we were saying, we're super fan girls of your book. And I just wanna let you know that we do not ever censor women. So feel free to speak freely and cuss as much as you need and
Darcy:oh, okay. Great.
Bianca:Communicate in the way that you need to say it. So that's one of the things we stand for here at Bebo Mia is like,"don't tell us to say it nicely."
Darcy:I would never tell you that and I will not do it either.
Bianca:um, so, um, for those of you who are tuning in Darcy wrote all the rage, which is Mothers, Fathers, and the Myth of Equal Partnership. And it is one of our most favorite books. Why we really love All the Rage is it a speaks to so many of our journeys as, as folks who identify as mothers. It also is it has really great research. And so we teach our students about being a resource, never source. And this book is just like your Bible for understanding, um, where to go to explain, um, the social political, economic, cultural, um, you know, explanations for this in inequity. So before we jump into some of the questions we have, I did wanna flag that most of the conversations we're gonna be having today for our listeners will be in the context of hetero families. There, there are citations of what happens in the queer context. Um, I love Darcy's caveat that the vast majority of modern involved fathers are well-intentioned reasonable human beings. So we'll open that. Also Darcy's book speaks a lot about the US. Um, but the us is not the only country that has the same experience. And as Meg pointed out this morning, about 85% of the world would have the same inequity in the division of labor. Um, and so. When we look at the roles of parenthood at Bebo Mia we talk a lot about motherhood, um, because that's who we're working with predominantly as they go through their reproductive health journeys. Um, and so I like to break it down that the motherhood is in two
silos:the work of motherhood and the relationship of motherhood. And I think where the confusion comes in with modern fathers is modern fathers have the same two silos. The work of fatherhood and the relationship of fatherhood. And what has shifted from previous generations is fathers are now doing the relationship part more than ever, but not the work part. And moms are still exclusively doing the mom part while their partners are getting praised all over the place for showing up as really present awesome dads. And so, so many of them feel like, you know, this resentment, but yet the dads are quote good dads. Um, but they're still, mothers are still left with this mountain of invisible labor and not invisible labor . Um, so I mean, we wanted to talk about this rage around the inequity and, and you know, that this concept that dads are now being praised more than ever because they are showing up, but it's in one really like the fun bucket essentially. Absolutely.
Darcy:I really like the way you broke that down, Bianca, cuz that, that is the truth of it. Right. And I think it leaves women, modern mothers, very confused. Cuz it's like, wait, I know he, how much he loves the kids and I know how much he enjoys them and they have a relationship and the kids don't feel any absence. So what's going on that I'm so frustrated all the time with what I have to shoulder. I think it can be really hard when the sort of, um, conventional wisdom is dads are like so much better than they used to be. And now everything's equal cuz moms are working now too. And what, what really shifted was women also started earning money, but the workload of the home never shifted, um, to keep up with that. And that's something that a lot of researchers in the field kind of observed and tried to quantify and explain.
Bianca:Yeah. I know, I love, I love the stat that you have, um, gathered around full-time working-out-of-the-home mothers are spending still the same amount of time with their children as housewives in the seventies. And I was like, it was the biggest joke and they're like, yeah, go to work. You could have them both. And they're like, exactly, but you still have to do all the other things.
Darcy:Aren't you lucky you get to work now? And hey, look, I am so glad to live in an era where it is expected that I will work, cuz I would go crazy as a full-time homemaker. Yeah. Not to, you know, not to like knock the progress we've made, but clearly the shift was never made where fathers were gonna accommodate the fact, um, that their partners were, um, equal or greater, or, you know, also obviously sometimes you lesser breadwinners, you know, everyone's earning money, but the labor of the home never shifted. And there was kind of this attitude, like women are so lucky. Right. Mm-hmm, , everything's so much better and that's true, you know, it's not untrue, but it's hardly the whole story. And there was a, um, there was kind of a mini phenomen in like the early nineties where it was like, you know, the career track mom realizes she's happier at home. And like the husbands who were interviewed for the article, it was a New York times. Um, you know, one of those like magazine pieces that kind of makes a splash, the husbands were all like, honey, you do whatever makes you happy, but without saying, oh, and if it makes you happy to be at work, then of course I'll be taking on 50% of what goes on at home. These great men were like, you do whatever you like, if you wanna work and be a mom, that's great. I'll support that, but like, what does it mean to support that? And they meant that they would support that spiritually and morally . They didn't that they would support it with their labor. That kind of didn't occur to them or anyone because these articles celebrated how great women's choice was. Right? Without saying, oh wait, but there's this one constraint, which is, you know, you could do all this extra and there isn't, there aren't be any more hours of the day, but, um, you know, but you get to do it!
Bianca:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, it's a, it's valid and it was another interesting shift around the beginning of COVID. So the spring early summer of 2020, and I remember our team lost our minds because there was parents who like actually had to choose, like putting one of them, had to put their career down because the, the kids were home with the lockdowns. And I remember it was featuring, um, like three moms who made this decision to stop their jobs, their careers and homeschool. And, um, one of them was this mom who had this really cool feminist tech company. And I think she lived in the prairies, like lived in Canada and she closed her company, which then laid off her whatever 14 staff, um, to be at home, like making died rice and like water mats on the ground. And her husband was like, she's doing like what women really, truly love to do. Like, and now she gets this privilege and she was like, yeah, I get, I get to do this now. And I was like, what is happening? Like somebody go like shaker and tell her she doesn't have to do this. Yeah. I mean, not that being with your children isn't really delightful, but I was like, she closed something that had been the last decade of her life. Like she built a company. And it was just assumed. I was like, she actually does a tech company. It was virtual. She could have done it anyway.
Darcy:Yeah. Right. That was certainly one of the downsides of the pandemic was a lot of women kind of leaving the workforce to take care of the home and not always... I mean, I suppose it's always a choice and you wanna do what's best for everybody. And you live in the world, you live in, you don't live in some ideal world. So when you're in that position, you have hard choices to make. But the silver lining of the pandemic was the one thing that gets men apparently to do more, to take on more of the loaded home is when they work from home and their wives work away from home. So this is the one group during the pandemic where things really shifted was if the father was suddenly working from home all day and the mother was an essential worker, a nurse or, you know, just out in the world in a time when people are out in the world, that's when things actually started to shift. And so some sociologists after the pandemic were thinking like, well, this is how change takes place, because for those families where dad was suddenly working from home and mom was no longer in the house, the kids were gonna see. The kids in the house and in the community were gonna see that fathers could be like a stay at home ish kind of parent.
Bianca:Mm-hmm
Darcy:Um, and, and it becomes more normalized. So it's really interesting the way like a cultural or, you know, a crisis can like kind of, um, make things shift in ways that are unavoidable. Like if dad is at home, he's, he's really, he's the only one in the house he's gonna be the adult who's responsible. So I thought that was one of the really interesting takeaways from the division of labor discussion that happened around the pandemic.
Bianca:Mm-hmm . Well, they also just got to see how irritating it was trying to work with kids. Like, you know, the interruptions to your reading.
Darcy:Oh my God. I don't. I dunno how I mean, yeah, not even more than irritating, but impossible to accomplish. Right. One of the things that made me. Oh, this isn't, this, this isn't fair. But one of the things that made me angry that I read, and this might have been during the pandemic, or might have been before, um, was Mindy Kaling talking about how she wrote her scripts while her kids napped. And I thought F you! That's bullshit! You totally have childcare! and you're entitled to it! Don't, don't, but don't don't. I mean, what do I know? But don't lie about it. Like there's no way you wrote all your television scripts while your kids were napping. That's just...
Well, please say:I was able to pay for help. Aren't I fortunate? And you know, I, so I was able to work really fully and be a mom like . Yeah. So yeah, this whole, like working while your kids are little, I, I mean, I, I don't of course like working for home while your kids are little, if there's no one else around to help is like, I don't know how that happens.
Bianca:Yeah. But we, we don't give permission for moms to say those things because... you know, then we're, we're admitting we're not upholding one of the pillars of motherhood, which is the sacrifice of all things. And just like working around our children and our children are first and I'll do this, this passion, this burning passion of mine while they sleep for 15 minutes at a time. I'll do my life's purpose... I mean, if you listen to Shonda Rhimes her book "The Year of Yes", I think it's called mm-hmm . Um, it was the same thing that there was so much of like, I don't know, trying to apologize for that she could, yeah, she could contract this out and I was like, you are a solo parent by choice who is working. Exactly. Of course you have to contract that out, but she'd be like,"But I'd be there for this! And you know what, like mom it's okay. We don't really need to see all the dinners." And I was like, Shonda, it's fun.
Darcy:Yeah, I know. Right, exactly, exactly. We're so I think we all, we are all, we all feel in our guts how vulnerable to criticism we are, um, as women. And of course the, you know, it's not viewed the same way, obviously for a father who was working outside of the home. One, one of the interesting things that one of the sociologists I interviewed said to me was, you know, women will say to me, well, I'm working, cuz it's really good for my daughters to see that I work. And she's like, and I get it. Like you do wanna, you know, make that kind of impression, but it like it doesn't... It sort of disallows saying, I work for me cuz it's gratifying. Um, and I like being an effective money, earning ambitious human being in the world. It's like that part of our desire is not allowed to be out in the open. Right? We have to say, yeah, it's good for my kids to see me working or I need money. Which of course everybody does. Like those things are okay to say, but to say like, I really like having a professional identity and ambition, that's sort of the part we don't cop to, right. When we say, oh, I'm doing... even working, I'm doing that for my kids.
Bianca:Mm-hmm yeah.
Darcy:Again, not untrue, but like what about the other part, like own, you know, let's own our ambition and our desires. Like what's wrong with that?
Bianca:And that we can do things for ourselves. Like we're allowed to do things just because we want to. Like, we don't have to get hands free time so that we can like hands free, do the laundry or hands free, clean out the fridge. We can get hands free time because we wanna lay in the backyard and read our book. Yeah. Um, we can get hands free time because we wanna just like flop on the couch and zone out on our phone.
Darcy:Yeah. Being married to a man, I notice how freely he takes that time. And he's a role model for me in that way. Um, and I, I, you know, the, the problem is, is when I am not a role model for him in the other way. It's so nice, you know, it's so nice to be so generous with one's family and their priorities. That needs to be kind of the, the role modeling too, for the other partner when it doesn't occur equally because, you know, boy, the, we, we raise boys in this country.
Bianca:Yeah, there was a meme this week that said it's so much easier to raise boys because we pass on the completion of the task to their wives. And I was like, yeah, I was gonna post it. But I'm always very sensitive because Meg's family. Meg is raising two boys and she has an incredible husband. And they're actually like the families that you feature that are defying the. Gender roles.
Darcy:Yeah.
Bianca:The Kant family, which is Meg's beautiful family is like, so fucking committed to not having these patterns like around, around food, around body, around money, around division of labor. And they're doing a very very good job. So I'm always really, I was gonna post it and I was like, oh no. I honored Meg and how she's rasing her sons. So I'm not going to because I wanted to be like everyone, but you Meg. Darcy: Yeah, it's very thoughtful, but you is whatever we do in our homes, which of course is meaningful and impactful, the larger world still instills. Right? We can't miss this stuff in the world at large. There was this, um, family, the Bems I think is their name. And the, the parents were both, um, I believe they were both psychologists and they decided in the seventies, I think it was the seventies to raise their kids without gender. So they didn't include gender in anything hoping that they could raise these kind of... and I, I think they, they raised wonderful children, but what they learned was that the world outside had a huge impact. What they did at home of course mattered. And it helped their kids think about things in a different way, but you can't escape the outside forces. I mean, I think about myself, my dad was super active and involved. He was the most involved father of anyone who I knew at the time. I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit in the seventies and eighties. And he was all at every school performance at every everything. He had a more flexible schedule than my mother. But still I knew what was, you know, what end was up. Like, obviously we were the weird family and this wasn't how things were supposed to be. It was a little embarrassing to me cuz of the kid that I was to not be just like everybody else. And it wasn't so embarrassing, but still like I knew that the right thing was that the mother was the one who was doing everything all the time for everybody and that the father was at work. Like I really internalized that. Clearly making different decisions in your own home makes a big difference, but it's still, it's still so there. It's the water we kind of swim in. Oh, I know. Like just becomes part of the wallpaper. Like you're just like, oh yeah, this is... it's frustrating and it's hard. Um, Meg and I wanted to talk to about something, put it on the table here with you, Darcy, you know, we get the, the beautiful honor of being in spaces with people, helping them through their prenatal and then being at their births and then seeing what happens postpartum. So like we get a very intimate role. And, and what we've noticed is that there's, um, Meg jump in here, if you wanna round any of this out, but like around motherhood and the identity... and how much worth comes from our badges of exhaustion. No matter how many times in Bebo Mia, we're like, "please stop wearing exhaustion like a badge of honor." Like it is not a badge of honor.
Meg:Yeah. I think that just talking about how somebody could support or help somebody navigate putting down that badge of honor, when it feels like it's like essential to their being. Right? If we stripped that away, then it's like, okay, well then I actually don't know who I am anymore. If I'm not an exhausted, really intensive parent, then I'm stuck here with an identity that I no longer recognize.
Darcy:Yeah.
Meg:And so what Bianca and I were talking about earlier is like, I I'm wondering if we would need to build the exterior pillars before we started, like asking people to like, let go of those parts of their identity.
Darcy:Yeah. Um, I, I think that you really have to kind of take a good look at the world around you and understand culturally how we got, where we got. You know, people, when they read my book, there was some criticism that I didn't solve the problem, which I can appreciate. I certainly didn't. But my way of thinking, is that if you understand something you're in a better position to make, um, freer choices. That's kind of where I come from in my thinking both as a therapist, cause I'm a psychologist. Um, and certainly when I was writing this book, so like just for myself, when I started writing my kids where I wanna say like three and eight when I started this book, um, so I was really in it and I didn't know how I had gotten there. Um, so I felt like the information that I was giving could, could help people to think about what they were doing along the way in a different way. So if you know that, the badge of exhaustion really is, is given out based on all these ideas about intensive mothering, right?
Meg:Mm-hmm
Darcy:I think, you know, my friends and I, when we were raising our kids, we're very much aware we were raising our kids in a different environment than we were raised in. I mean, again, I was raised in the seventies and eighties. We were, we did whatever we wanted. Like we weren't my friends and I, we weren't neglected, but the ethos of parenting was so different. Like our parents went to work and did their thing. We ran around the neighborhood. We did our homework on our own, you know, if we want,
Bianca:We come home, when the sun goes down, that's the rule. You have to be home.
Darcy:Like every activity that I did in high school, I did on my own volition. I didn't have anyone pushing me to get involved with things for my college applications. Like it was just forth and make your own life, which I actually really valued about my childhood. Um, and I didn't really understand why things had changed. Like all of us with all of our intensity, like how did that develop? And the thing that really struck me when I was doing the research was it was exactly at the time when women's workforce participation started to equal men's that there was all this anxiety about what's gonna happen to the kids and mothers were exhorted to do as much as they had always done, even though they were now also working. So this sort of ethos of intensive mothering really came about I think it's in the late eighties, early nineties. When again, women's workforce participation had skyrocketed. So to know that this isn't how it has to be. And it hasn't always been this way. That exhaustion was like this thing that we achieved and that's how we knew we were being good mothers. It's just sort of the, um, the fashion of the day. Right? So to speak. And once, you know, it's the fashion of the day, you can think to yourself, how do I wanna live? and it's really hard. And I felt like when every mother around you knows, knows when it's crazy hair day and has the bows ready to like, make you up, make the kids up and you're not doing that it's kind of like, oh God, is my kid gonna feel neglected? Right? So it, it is hard to kind of push back against that. Cause if like being a good mother, um, is something that's important to you, and I think it is to most people who become mothers, like, how do you say well, but being a good mother to me is not about knowing every time it's crazy hair day, having every color t-shirt ready for summer camp. Whatever, at least I know for me, it wasn't my inclination to know when it was crazy hair day, but I always felt guilty about it if I would show up and the other kids had crazy hair and mind didn't. Like it was cuz I didn't keep on top of that stuff. Right?
Bianca:Yeah.
Darcy:So I. It's hard to relinquish the badge of exhaustion cuz of what it symbolizes, which is that you're not doing a good job, but again, to know that, that hasn't always what has made... you know, been a cultural value. That can be really useful to know that even if you're a progressive person, you've really, um, internalized enough, let's call it misogyny to still take on most of the work at home. Cuz you just think you're supposed to and your husband, you know, if you're married to a man or partnered with a man, um, and he's not doing that much, it's not cuz he's thinking about it. It's cuz he was sort of raised to be a little bit entitled and not expect to have to do that stuff without even knowing it. Right. Our values don't match our behavior. That's where couples have trouble. Cause we kind of expect that our behavior is gonna follow follow from our values, but that's not really, that's not really how it tends to go.
Meg:Mm-hmm and I think that for so many, uh, mothers in particular, that there's a feeling of almost vulnerability when they, you know, express these needs to their partner, because it really does end up being like, if you don't do this, then where are we at? Right? I'm either going to talk to you about this. We're gonna have meaningful dialogue and there's gonna be some changes or. The other, like, there are only two other options I settle with what is, yeah. Or I'm forced to like leave or I have to do whatever. And so there's that like really like big feeling, you know, vulnerability of putting it out there and being like, this is actually what I need. Especially if you have a partner that you don't think is gonna pick it up.
Darcy:I think one of the other things that I hoped with my book was if couples read it together. Yeah. Um, there would be more room to have these discussions and what one, one couple said to me, and I thought this put it really nicely was like, once we understand that this is a cultural problem and we're just kind of playing it out, like everybody does, we don't have to be so defensive and so angry.
Meg:Yes.
Bianca:Yeah.
Darcy:I wanted to open up a discussion by relieving each member of the couple of responsibility.
Meg:Yeah.
Darcy:Cause it's really to say, well, you woman, you're such a martyr and you do, you're such an asshole for overlooking this shit, but. In reality, we didn't build society. None of us did. Right. Who knows how societies and cultures get built, but it not by not by us individually. So once we are relieved of some responsibility for the patterns we're acting out, hopefully we can really sit down together and like, kind of interrogate what's going on with some good humor. And then also some ability to shift the division of labor to really hear one another, instead of blaming one another, which is so easy to do. I mean, I remember being sleep deprived and angry all the time. Right. Um, and I'm less sleep deprived now and also less angry. Um, and you know, we've worked through some things, but not everything cuz some of this stuff just gets so stuck.
Bianca:Mm-hmm yeah. There's just these unresolvables.
Darcy:Right, right. Yeah, exactly. Once you get into patterns with your kids, like it's real. The learning curve is really difficult to catch up on. Like once, you know, all the, you know, mothers in the community and all the teacher's names and all the friends and all the, you know, sort of annual things that kind of go on, it's hard for someone else to get up to speed. So if people don't start out trying to be on the same page and up to speed with stuff, it can be very difficult to reconfigure that
Meg:Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. No, absolutely. I know that was one thing that, um, Max and I, when we were talking about this, there was almost when we first started talking about, because this has been a conversation that we've been having for years and anyone that's listening, it's like a constant work. We are always working on it. Sometimes we show up better than we show up at other times. And it was so interesting because I thought I had been talking about this so neutrally and just like relaying the information and just being really gentle about it. And eventually at one point he got so defensive and I was like, I don't understand why you're mad. And he's like, you're calling me a shitty dad. And I was like, wow, that is so interesting, cuz I actually am not, that's not how I feel. And so to like, I love how you put it and you even said it in the book for couples that read it together. Because it takes away that sting of, of pointing blame.
Bianca:It's just what's so, and it's like, the uncomfortability comes from like that gas lighting feeling of being like, no, I, and you're like, no, this is insane. Like, this is, this is not what is happening. And they're like, I don't know what to tell you. And you're like, "Just say that this is not equal." And I think that's where Meg and Max are right now. They're like at this like pinnacle where the last piece is just to be like, let's just like openly talk about that the system is unfair and it is inequitable and we've landed at what we're thinking is equal, but it's very much still two thirds, one third.
Darcy:It, it helps to be able to say, and it took me a really long time to realize this you're, you're not a shitty dad, but if you're not listening to me, you're being a shitty partner. Right? Cause...
Bianca:Oh, that's good.
Darcy:So they're so different. And I think to really be able to say these two things are separate, you know, it was, it, it was funny cuz I think I didn't really realize that very clearly until I actually had the opportunity to be on the... the.... was, yeah. The Today Show? One of the morning shows. Oh my God.
Bianca:No big deal! When I was on the today show.
Darcy:Yeah. Anyway, so, and my husband was like, you know, he was on board for the whole thing, but it's very hard to be kind of the... um, the like ground zero for this book, right? Is our relationship. And it's like, so it wasn't, you know, as supportive as he was, it was also, he was, he didn't feel great about it. Right. It felt bad. Yeah. And so I was, I was going on television that morning and he was working. He didn't see it, get to see it live. But I said to him afterwards, I'm like, "Hey, I just told all of America that you're a great dad." I was. Right. I really want you to know, like this isn't this, this isn't about you not being a good dad. It's about, it's about what goes on between men and women and their partnerships. So I think it was that morning that I really separated the two in my head, you know, feeling like really not wanting him to be like devastated by what I was saying, which of course the book was, is not a memoir and it's not about him. It's just kind of how, how I got the idea for the whole thing was like, why are we having this ridiculous experience? Right?
Bianca:Yeah.
Darcy:Um, And it's funny, cuz I there's a book called Fair Play by Eve Rodsky. You guys probably know it. Yeah. Yeah. And Eve and I had the opportunity to, um, get together a few times and she, her book started from the same thing. She was having the same ridiculous experience as me at about the same time. Um, and decided to develop this card game that would help couples. Um, yeah. Her research is really awesome too, but she has a, an actual, like, I kind of feel like my book is the why and hers is the how to, um, yeah. They're, I think they're, they're a good, um, a good set together. But anyway, but anyway, Meg, the distinction that you're making your husband said, well, you're saying I'm a shitty dad. No, no, no, not at all, honey. You're an amazing father. Right? Cause men need to hear that. I mean, if you believe it right. If you feel that that is true, men need to hear that as much as we do. And I think that they... they get praised, but I, I think they, they also have some obviously, cuz it's important to them, some insecurities about whether they're doing a good job. Mm-hmm so yeah, no, you're a great dad. The partnership is the problem. Let's focus on that, right?
Meg:Yeah. And, and that's actually, I did wanna to note too, just a, like a little bit about like the demands are high, but the responsiveness is high. So this is something that we talk about when we're talking about infants, right? Like especially when we talk about infant sleep, There's a high demand, but there's also high responsiveness. So you might, um, or this is with children. So when I was thinking about with Max and I is that he is a fully functioning, capable adult. And when we work as a team, everyone is happier, even him. And so even though the demands are high, like when I feel supported and seen, I'm more likely to go above and beyond and make sure that he feels supported and seen. And so it really does kind of become this positive feedback loop, as opposed to when we first started, it kind of felt like positive reinforcement. He did something good. And so I said, nice things, but now it just like genuinely feels like that. He does lovely things and I do lovely things and we both are so grateful.
Bianca:The layers of that is so awesome because, um, I also had a very non-traditional being raised by my parents and they were both very present. My mom was an at-home parent. My dad ran a law firm, but it was down the street. So he could like come home for lunch and he was always there and we were homeschooled and, um, again like seventies and eighties and, um, . And I remember him saying like, not only is being hands on really important, but showing my children like how sacred their mom is, even when they're not together. So he did family law, like divorce law, but it like sucked his soul. So he moved over to a different type, but he used to say like, even to his clients, when he like represented dads was: the most loving thing, like, you do not have to like her, but like you're also teaching your children about like what they can expect because they love her. Yeah. And like, that's the most generous thing. So now when I watch people who like the dads are like, not only just like, not very present, but they're like straight up bullies to their moms. Even in relationships and they're like, but he's a really good dad. And I was like, he's not, he says terrible things about you in front of your children, even when you're married. Like how is that a good dad? And when your kids get the message, like, mom's essentially garbage. Like you carry the groceries. I'm not going to because they see that like, that's your, you know, I was like, you've, you're actually perpetuating exactly what we're trying to stop. And yet they still have a good dad because they went to soccer or they like did school drop off twice that week.
Darcy:Yeah. Right. Family systems are really complicated. And the research shows that actually the most important determinant... and this is old research, so I'm not sure if it's been updated, but the most important determinant of a child's self-esteem is how well their parents get along. Yeah. Oh, wow. and in, in houses where there's conflict between the mother and father look, there's always conflict, but the more conflict there is the more distant relationship fathers develop with their children, especially daughters. This is in the book so you probably read that. But yeah, I, I thought that was a pretty interesting stat. So there's, so there's so many reasons to fight for a, an equitable division of labor, cuz it makes for a more enjoyable family system, which is better for everybody.
Bianca:Yeah. Yeah, no, that was, it was honestly even in my 20 something year old brain when I had Gray, um, when I was straight for, when I was straight for two years. Um, um, I realized, I mean, not only my queerness, but I was ready to like grid and grit, bear down and make this work because of, I don't know, my 20 something values of those black and white thinking of like divorce, shouldn't be an option. Um, but I remember being like, oh, I never want Gray to see me treated like this. Yeah. Like this is, this is garbage. Yeah. Um, and it was like insidious garbage that like, where you just feel worthless, but you, like, you don't have to get hit to like, have that be the message loud and clear. And I remember being like, that was actually one of my conscious thoughts of like, I do not want this kid to think that this is okay. Like not only the inequitable division of labor, but that like you're garbage in your home, which should be your safest, most like bolstering, restful place that you're celebrated because the rest of the world is so challenging for women to move through. Um, and that was even at 26, I was like, "Nope, I gotta get outta here." Cuz I need Gray to like only see me being strong and valued and hence, I made Bebo Mia and I built the community really badass women doing cool stuff. Yeah. So she could see me in a really like empowered state, even though at the time it meant we were in poverty and we had like, you know, less consistent housing, like all of that still felt more important then.
Darcy:Oh, sure. Yeah. No, that must have been a very difficult time and I can appreciate that choice for sure.
Bianca:But I'm so grateful every day. And that Gray's only seen me, like, I mean, we've had bumps and bruises along the way. Don't get me wrong, but like, she's just, she hasn't seen me in that like obvious power, it like disempowered state. Yeah. Um, and I think that's really powerful for our daughters and our sense we have to stop, like making our daughters the reason of like shaping them into the world of our sons. But like having our children see us really, really like empowered in whatever our choices are. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's a really, that. I know it felt like a good parenting move at the time.
Darcy:Yeah. Yeah. And publicly, and we see more women in public life. That's also something that is bound to shift. Right. We see Kamala Harris, we have a powerful woman. Right. Um, and more women in the house and Senate, hopefully like, right. Cuz you watch the news. And you see, you see who leads the world. You see who's important. You see who's valued. Um, yeah, there's a lot going against us. There's a good book. I don't know if you guys have read"Why as Patriarchy Persists?". Yeah. Like Carol Gilligan and Naomi Snyder. I, I love that. It's kind of psych heavy cuz it's yeah, I think it's, it might not be so accessible, but it's also a really nice kind of um, look at why, why it's been so hard to, um, shift beyond this system that we all live in.
Bianca:Mm-hmm well, it's, it's hard, like you said, in, in All the Rage, which is, you know, there's lots of really great sources to back it up, um, is it's like people don't wanna give up privilege. It's why, you know, through 2020 when people were noticing racism apparently for the first time. Um, and then I was like, but it actually means you have to do these things. Like you might step down from your job. You might have to like give your land back. Like I was like, these are actually the things it's so much more than putting a black square in your Instagram. So the same thing with men that I'm like, it's not just saying I support my wife. It's like... Prove it! And not prove it, but like do one thing.
Darcy:Find the school supplies and figuring out who needs to be signed up for what?
Bianca:Yeah. Yeah. Like you, you flagged the summer camp registration coming up, like that's how you're gonna show it. And there was a TikTok that went around father's day, where they were just asking dads on the street, like families out, like getting ice cream and stuff, like basic questions about their children, like what's size shoes do they have? What's their teachers called? What's their best friend's name? What are their allergies? And none of them can do it. And so then after I started asking my friends, like, the few friends who were hetero to be like, what's that shoes do your kids wear? And like, nobody could answer any of the questions. And I was like...
Darcy:Jimmy Kimel did the same thing. Do you know how Jimmy Kimel? I love Jimmy Kimel. You know he does the man on the street interviews.
Bianca:Yeah, yeah.
Darcy:That it was either mother's day or father's day. I think, I think it was father's day. He did it too. These dads didn't know their kids birthdays.
Bianca:Yeah.
Darcy:They would be with their kids and Jimmy would be on the street in LA or maybe it wasn't Jimmy, but whoever's out there doing it. Like, so what's your kid's birthday? What's your kid's teachers name? The dad's got all the answers wrong, all the answers wrong. I mean, I say in response to you, I mean, one is like on a larger level, social psychology has found that society's with more equality in everywhere are happier. So, we think that giving up privilege as a painful thing, but how happy are we with inequality in our society? Like more equal societies, whether it's gender, race, economics, more equal societies, people report higher levels of, um, happiness. So that's one thing also like the stuff that I, you know, I feel like men really miss out on intimacy with their kids in a certain way. And I don't mean to say like, it's such a pleasure to be filling out. You know, emergency school forms every September, like, obviously that doesn't make me closer to my kids, but I know who goes on the emergency forms. Right. I know like the stuff that, so I do, I feel like women are certainly rightfully angry and I have been many times and sometimes continue to be, but there's also something that men really miss out on in terms of closeness with their kids when they're not as actively involved. So on a societal level, equal societies report, more higher levels of individual happiness and on a personal level, it has just really occurred to me that the intimacy that men miss out on, um, is a real, is a real cost to that.
Bianca:Well, and it's, and it kind of, it feels hard to like, the double Dutch, like, it feels hard to know how to even jump in. Because we know the neurological changes that happen for any primary parent from just like the feedback loop of engaging. And so now you're already at this deficit, whoever the secondary parent is, which is typically is fathers. And then you don't know, like I know when I come back from vacation from from like working and everyone's talking about things. I actually like don't know like where I can jump in, because I don't know what's happened over the last week. Yeah. And that's just like in a micro situation. And then I feel slightly disempowered that day being like, oh, I actually don't have anything to offer. I don't know the email that they're talking about. I don't know what the crisis with the student was. Like all of those things. Yeah. And so I actually like pull back and then I'm like, not as attentive in the meetings and like, it's that loop. And I was like, I can imagine it's really like, you feel disempowered, you feel shame and then you'd flip it to be like, I don't care about it, or like all the coping tools that you would have. Like, I don't think either party is winning. Yeah. I'm not like, man, you have it so easy. I'm like, you're probably really sad and you're left out and you feel isolated and embarrassed. Yeah. And you pictured more for you Neither party
Darcy:is winning. I think that's a really nice way to put it.
Meg:I also wanted to ask while we have Darcy, cuz I feel like this is a really, really important one for people to know. Um, is that biology usually comes into play when we talk about the division of labor and like motherly instincts, and it's just like, women are better at it. Can you please tease apart that myth for the listeners?
Darcy:Well... Just like the broader point is is: it's bullshit! It's not true. This is my way of thinking of it. And our current point in history, I think men and women are exactly the same save for our reproductive organs. And we divide, you know, because of the way our, the binaries that are easier to think in. We, we call certain things masculine and certain things feminine, and then we live by that. Yeah. And all the gender fluidity these days. I think this is really changing. Cause you know, it's my feeling that, um, kids who say I'm not a girl at which I totally respect, and I'm glad we're honoring that, but what is a girl, right? Yeah. What, what does that even mean? It's funny. My, um, my niece says, she calls herself a Demi girl, cuz she doesn't feel like a girl all of the time. And I hear this and I love these kids. They're awesome. And I, but I'm like what, what does that mean? to feel like a girl all the time? I mean, I remember right growing up sugar and spice and everything. Nice. That's what little girls are made of. Like, no. And I thought, well, fuck. I mean, I'm certainly not a fucking girl then! It's just like, yeah.
Bianca:Yeah. I can relate to that as a tomboy.
Darcy:Binaries are just ridiculous. And I feel like they're starting to get pushed on a little bit and I'm glad cuz they don't, they don't really make any sense. There's nothing. Um, there's nothing about parenting that is not learned. Right. It's all learned behavior. So if we think someone is better biologically at learning something, I mean, it's just like, there's no, there's no one who's better naturally at changing diapers. And there's actually research that supports this, that the physiological changes that take place during parenthood happened both in men and women and researchers have looked at things like heart rate, skin, conductance, hormone levels, and they found that, um, That women and men both have equal response, biological, responsiveness to babies. And if you think about evolution and how much care a human infant needs to get to independence, right? Just the calories they need. And the care that they need is more than one person can provide. Yeah, so that only one half of our species would develop the capacity evolution-wise to take care of babies would make no sense. And, and, and you know, the stuff that I read about, I didn't know this, I don't know if you guys were familiar with this. Um, but that men's hormones, hormone levels change. When in close contact with a pregnant partner, did you, did you guys know this? I didn't know this before I did the research. That speaks volumes. Like it's not only women who go through the physiological changes of pregnancy. It's also, um, any, uh, any man who spends time in intimate contact with them. Sorry for repeating this cuz you guys read the book, but it's so interesting that they actually found the mechanism for this in marmosets. So marmoset is the kind of primate and what they found was that the fetus excretes some hormone or something that is then, um, comes out through the mother in her urine and the odor is what kicks off the hormonal changes in their partners and their male partners, which is cool. It's like fascinating. Like, so they don't know what the mechanism is for these changes in humans. Um, but they, they do happen. Men's testosterone falls, I think. And other things rise. So certainly men and women were both, um, created to be able to care for infants mm-hmm and the stuff we tell ourselves about biology really just justifies patriarchal systems.
Bianca:We also know that like, there's a very like active rejection of like, I don't wanna, like, my friends will make fun of me. I don't wanna do these things. This is ladies work. Like I'm too tough. This would be embarrassing as well as a blatant, like, so those are some of the like, more passive ways, but we see there's a massive rise in domestic violence and abuse against women as they start getting pregnant. And I almost feel like there's like men know that they're having these testosterone shifts and then this is like, they're like rejection of it. And they have to like very actively rejected. Yeah. Because. I don't know. So I've like always been really curious, knowing how much their testosterone drops and estrogen rises and like this oxytocin release and all these love hormones and connection is happening. And yet we see the worst behavior from men. Yeah. Um, when their women are pregnant or the most vulnerable when they're like have new babies.
Darcy:Yeah, right. That's that's a really interesting idea. I hadn't thought about the hormonal connection to that as a psychologist, I had thought about it more as like envy that they were no longer gonna be the, the woman's primary.
Bianca:Yeah. There's that too
Darcy:rage about their own childhood. So I kind of, I've always thought of it more from a psychological perspective, but that no, I'm sure there's, there's gotta be some truth to that. Right? Whenever testosterone is involved. I don't know if you guys have read "Testosterone Rex."
Bianca:Um, no.
Darcy:Who wrote that? Um, this brilliant neuroscientist psychologist, woman, whose name is gonna escape me right now, but the book is called "Testosterone Rex". Um, and it's about all the myths about testosterone and its impact on men and women.
Bianca:Oh, that's amazing. We'll put it on the list. We do. We talk a lot about hormones. I also just wanna say thank you for your book because you didn't do anything prescriptive, which I value. I know that some people might be like, you didn't have a solution. Totally. But like, I know I read, um, around, just before yours or maybe around the same time. No, it was a bit before, um, "Fed Up", came out. Yeah. And, um, Gemma's book. And I was like really enjoying it. Like I was like, oh shit. Yeah, that's great. Cuz she had some of those similar research and, but in the end it was like lower your standards and just be okay with it. And like that's how you'll survive it. And I was like, no Gemma, like, no, no, no. We cannot continue to like, just make a, make everyone comfortable for a system that doesn't work. And so Gemma you're you're wonderful. Thank you for writing a book and that's really hard. And you did, you did good. And I don't think we can have a prescription because yeah, it has to be for every single family what's gonna work. Right. And what's comfortable and what's possible.
Darcy:I haven't read, Fed Up, um, but yeah, I, when I was, um, selling the book as one does you write a proposal and then you go around. If you're lucky enough to be able to do this and talk to editors. And I said to everyone, I, you have to understand, I do not wanna write a self-help book. Like that's not what this is. If you wanna buy this book. Great. But that's not what this book is gonna be. Because it really is. It's about it is about patriarchy. Like, I can't tell anyone, like, here are the 10 steps we can take to end the patriarchy. Yes. I also hate the, the you know, just lower your standards and settle. I mean, on one hand, there's something very practical about living in the world we live in and not imagining that we live in a different world. Mm-hmm so there's something about understanding the predicament that you're in and why that I think is very valuable, but not so that you can lower your standards and just suck it up, but rather so that you can recognize why you're so angry and think about how you might manage it, given the constraints of your time and culture. Right. Mm-hmm yeah.
Bianca:So it has action. Possibility for action.
Darcy:When people said to me, well, you didn't solve this problem. I felt like on one hand, of course they were making a very valid point. And then I was also like, but I think you also missed the point in the book. If you think there was any way I was going to solve this problem. Like, it's not that I'm just hiding the 10 steps you can take to change that. I'm not holding that back. Like they aren't just 10 steps you can take to change this. You can just really understand the world you live in and think about how you wanna live as a, as a person in that system. Yeah. How you wanna live with the complexities of that.
Bianca:Now your next book can be like "Darcy Lockman, PhD Solves the Patriarchy."
Darcy:Yes, I've got thousand pages already written Bianca. It's it's gonna be world altering when it comes out.
Meg:Oh my gosh.
Bianca:Do you have a book coming out?
Darcy:Well, I'm working on something. I don't know if it'll see the light of day yet, but it's about, um, it's about therapy. It's about it's the working title is "What We See"
Bianca:mm-hmm
Darcy:so it's sort of like thinking about who's coming in for treatment today. What problems are people presenting with given our culture? There's this interesting quote. I came across, um, in "The Culture of Narcissism", which is a big book from the late seventies and the writer who's totally famous, whose name I'm gonna blank on right now? Cuz I'm trying to think of it, but he says, um, every era, like social problems, inevitably present as personal ones, every era develops its own personal form of pathology. And I thought, oh, that's really interesting. Like, what are the, what are our forms of pathology given what's going on in the world? So for the book, I'll be interviewing therapists like, like therapists from every background and orientation and whatever about like what, what to kind of think about like what we, what do we see these days? Like what's going on in the world and then what, what do people come to therapy with? So that's what I, but I haven't sold it. I haven't, I'm in the proposal phase, so I haven't sold it yet. So we'll see. But I'm enjoying the work. I, I, I really like asking questions and trying to come up with some answers, even though there's never like an answer, right?
Bianca:Yeah. That's really fun. Meg and I would definitely read that for sure.
Darcy:That's good to know. If it works out I will let you guys know. That's amazing.
Bianca:Meg, did you have a final question or something you wanted to add?
Meg:Well, I just wanted to note too, that I really love the idea that, that we're talking about this and also like bringing in partners and fathers and men, because the reality is that this does need to be something that involves everyone, right? Yeah. Um, and there's a podcast that I really, really love my husband and I've been listening to it while we like play UNO. Um, it's called The Man Enough Podcast and it's really, really, really beautiful. Where like men really talk about the ways that the patriarchy actually influences them and how it's like hindered their emotional development and their relationships and the ways that they show up in the world. And so for anybody that might be listening and your partner might be like, well, I actually don't know. Like, I actually am not sure how to feel this, or show this, or, you know, show affection. It's a really, really nice entry point into being like, oh, this is actually okay. Men are also humans. Men also feel things. And so I just wanted to note that.
Darcy:Uh, yeah, that sounds like a great podcast. I will say when Harper Collins showed me the cover, I was really reluctant about the color cuz it's pink. The book is pink and I was like, I really want men to read this. I think crazily enough that a pink cover is gonna be prohibitive. Um, and my editor was like, well, that's what, that's what pops on Amazon. I was like, oh, okay. So I guess that, that will then we'll keep a pink. But that was my hesitation was that it would put men off and. One, I actually got an email from a guy that I loved and he said to me, you know, thank you so much for this book. People are always praising me and telling me what a great dad I am. And it's always made me a little bit uneasy cuz I know how much more my wife does than me. And I could never put my finger quite before on why it made me so uneasy and why it wasn't. Right. And now I can totally do that. So I feel like the podcast you mentioned and hopefully a book like mine can help men kind of get their minds around this stuff. Patriarchy is incredibly harmful to men. Yeah. You know, I think as, as much so as women. Yeah. So yeah, it sounds like a great podcast. I'll have to take a listen. Thank you.
Bianca:You're amazing. Thank you so much, Darcy for joining us, we are so honored to have your voice be part of this whole conversation cuz your contribution with All the Rage was a, was a really, really great one. Um, and we need to continue to talk about this inequity because it is the source of rage for so many women. Um, and it's, it's not serving us as leading us to, um, a journey of unwellness in our hearts, our minds, our bodies. Um, so thank you for this. Thank you for hanging out.
Darcy:Thank you guys for having me. I'm honored to be invited and I am delighted to be part of this conversation.
Bianca:Amazing. Thank you, Meg and Darcy for joining us today on the Hot+Brave podcast, we are so honored to have both of you contributing and your stories and your wisdom. And dear listeners, if you have any questions or comments or things you'd like to share, please shoot us an email info@bebomia.com. And we will make sure we will get to those if not answer them in our next podcast. Thanks so much. Bye.
Narrator:Wanna keep hanging out with us? Find out at bebomia.com or head over to your favorite social media platform with the handle @BeboMiaInc. We will see you next time on the Hot+Brave Podcast.