Hot+Brave

S1E14 The Rage of Fighting for our time: Becoming a single parent and business owner

• bebo mia inc • Season 1 • Episode 14

Share episode

Send us a text

We're closing this first season with a conversation between Bianca Sprague and Marissa Bolaños about the lessons learned while navigating financial abuse,  divorce and life as single parents who ran birthwork businesses while being sole providers for their children. We hope this episode gives you tools to have the hard conversations with your partner, make decisions that make sense for you or inspire you to start a business as a solo parent.


www.bebomia.com

Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube, Pinterest, LinkedIn or Twitter.

Marissa Bolanos:

And then I just thought about my mom and she stayed married for 16 years, and I thought to myself like, wow. Like I really, I could keep on doing this for another 10 years, maybe even 20 years, um, potentially even my whole life. And do I really want to waste that time into trying to prove to someone else that my time matters, that my dreams matter, that my passions matter, that I matter, and I realize I didn't want to do that. You are listening to the Hot and Brave Podcast with Bianca Sprague from Babe Mia, where you will hear brave stories, hot topics, and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the bal you need for your soul.

Bianca Sprague:

Hello everyone and welcome to the Hot and Brave Podcast. I'm your host, Bianca Sprague, and I am joined today by one of our incredible peer mentors and our podcast editor, Marisa Bolans. Marissa and I have had a very similar trajectory with birth, work and divorce, single parenting, finding our power and our worth, and our voice through our businesses. Being entrepreneurs not only created that flexibility for us to leave situations that we were not shining in or thriving in, but also created that fire to keep putting one foot in front of the other. That said, there are so many things that we wished we knew before we started. These really beautiful and messy and hard journeys we're finishing up season one, which was all about rage with some reminiscing and discussion and ending with wise words that we wish we could share with our 20 something year old selves. Since we can't go back in time, we'll be sharing it with you here today. Quick note, our plans to finish this season with an interview with Jennifer Block, who's the author of Everything Below the Waist, why Healthcare Needs a Feminist Revolution, a book I. Say enough good things about, we needed to modify that. And hopefully we can move Jennifer over to season two. She was unable to make the interview time and I know we are all very, very disappointed. Uh, but we will do our best to make that interview happen, we promise. We're trying. Um, we've also opened our doors to the registration for the msp, which is our three in one doula certification, and you can get $350 off using the code. Birth bird. We have the early bird open right now. Again, that code is birth bird with no spaces, all cap locks. We've changed the price of our program and we wanted to share a little bit about that. You know, I don't know if anyone's noticed, but the world is weird and the economy is struggling and we've heard from so many of you that you and your businesses and your families are as well yet growing families. They still need us. Folks need us so much as they go through their fertility. Pregnancy births and their postpartum journeys. And we genuinely believe that supporting folks through their reproductive journeys can change the world. And we are wholeheartedly committed to supporting this goal. So in tough times, people come together. And today we wanted to share one of the ways we figured out how we can come together with you. We are offering the Ms. P. Training, which is our doula certification program. We're offering it for almost a thousand dollars off as a price reduction. And we are doing this in service of providing accessible education and support to our community. We truly trust in the power of this community, and we believe what goes around comes around. So despite the economic challenge, this price drop will have for Babe Mia as an organization, we believe that the positive impact will be tenfold and we will recover what is lost in ways we cannot yet imagine. So please head over to babe mia.com/links and find out about the program registration. You can find out about our next book club. We also have our new Etsy shop. It's called the Birth Worker Shop, so you can head over to Etsy and check that out and so much. We also are still giving away our awesome stickers for review, so please leave us a review, write in the name of the review to Kelly info be me.com, and we will ship stickers right to your door. Um, finally, we recommend headphones if you have little ears around because sometimes we cuss and we talk about topics you might not wanna share with your little ones. So without further ado, this is the chat Marisa and I had a few days ago, all about the reclamation of our time as well as our worth in power as single parents enjoy. Welcome Marissa. Hello. Hello. Hi Bianca. I'm so glad we're here. I am very excited to talk about this. So, you know, full disclosure, we were gonna have this as a bonus, bonus episode , and instead we had a really fun open q and a session this week for, um, a community event. And so many of these questions really brought us back to, um, the experience that both Marissa and I had as single parents. And so what we thought we would do in this episode is a bump it up the queue from, to be in the regular content instead of bonus content cuz it's that important. And that we would look at essentially what we wished we had known before when we were like baby birth workers, um, and what we learned in leaving situations that weren't ideal for us to grow and thrive within. So essentially, What we learned becoming single parents and sole provider, breadwinner birth workers.. Yep. What a trip.. There was a, there's a lot of wildness in there and I thought it'd be really fun to start with. Um, I mean, you guys have had got to know Marissa. She's the editor of the podcast as well as an awesome baby babe. And you might recognize her from episode two where we talked about rage and the movements in Latin America. And I think Marissa's, she's one of my favorite people because she came in as like a, Baby deer, wobbly, lagged. I think I wanna be a birth worker. I'm a brand new mom. Um, and you know what? I, I'm happy to be here in 2015 and so today Marissa and I went back and read her very first email to one another. And so I thought this feels like kind of a really nice circle to like, go back to that baby deer, very young new mom, and shared this like badass wisdom almost a decade later. And, um, you know, maybe all of you will take something from this journey of Marissa talking to Marissa from 2015. Yeah, it was funny reading that email. It is very much like you say, like with the wobbly legs, um, of just feeling very insecure. And I think it's a place where I see a lot of the members in our community being where, um, we feel like we don't have. To offer, right? Like we, we, we feel like, uh, like we don't have enough experience. Of course, that's like a big fear of all new birth workers. Like, you haven't been at enough birth, you haven't supported enough families, um, you haven't gotten the 3000 trainings, right? Because it's, you do your doula training and then you gotta do the training for this and the training for that, and training for, it's being specialized on all these different things. And we can get a stock into this place of, um, feeling like we never have quite enough to offer. And I think that's very much the place where I was at. I was, uh, feeling very insecure. Like there were too many doulas in my community, like I didn't have enough to offer. And then on top of that, I was, uh, having a really hard time trying to justify what I was trying to do to my, uh, my then husband, right, who is now my ex-husband. Um, because I knew that my passion was very, very strong, that I really, really cared about birth, that I like. It was indescribable the way. It took my sleep away. I would just lay over there just thinking about, uh, what's going on with reproductive health injustice around the world. And I just felt like this burning need to do something about it. And now I kind of recognize that there was probably a lot of rage that was burning through that, and I, it needed come true, um, through actually doing this work. But I didn't find a way to justify it to my partner that I needed to invest time, money, uh, and energy into this because of many reasons. Right. But I, I, I felt like I was very much stuck into this place where, I needed to invest into my dreams and my passions, and I didn't have my own resources, um, to do so. And I felt like I wasn't worthy of utilizing the family resources because I wasn't making any money at that, at that moment in my life. I had just gotten to the United States. Uh, I didn't have a work permit, so I couldn't have a job, uh, like a formal job, like working at whatever, like a bakery or whatever it could be. I couldn't do that. The only thing that I was allowed to do as a gray area was to start my own business, and I felt like I couldn't invest in my own business because I didn't have my own money and I didn. Feel like the work that I was doing, because I was literally working all day. I had, uh, one and a half, almost two year olds at that point. Who you describing him as a spirited child? Yeah. Like he's very active. I was just talking to him about it and I'm like, just remembering how he was climbing. All the way to the top of trees when he was one and a half. And it's so funny because at the moment it felt normal, but now that I had a second child that is not like that , uh, I'm just like, oh, okay. Not all kids are like constantly putting their lives in danger, . Um, so it was a lot of work, um, just, uh, being a mom and taking care of all the different things that needed to be done at home while also trying to start my own business. But because I wasn't receiving that immediate financial gratification in forms of a paycheck, I felt like I really was not worth of spending, uh, in my business. Even if I wanted to do it, I just could not justify to myself or to my. Yeah, and I think, I mean, you mentioned that you didn't have money of your own, but I mean, I think a lot of folks listening can relate to, it's so much more than just money because we actually don't have time of our own. And so I remember, I mean, it, it's a little harder for me to drop into the muscle. Me, actually, no, it's not there it is the muscle memory of what it was like as a brand new parent. I also had a husband for a very short time. I had come out and then not come, went back in the closet and then came out again after. Um, that's a, that's a story for another time. But I remember, um, being in a very similar situation to Marissa and like Marissa, I didn't have family close. Um, all of our family was very far away. We were new to the cities that we were in. Um, and as a new parent, I knew that whatever I needed to create had to be something that I would never need to ask anybody for time or money. And so that's what actually felt really stressful. But I actually. Babe Mia is what came to me, which was very different at the time. Um, but being a birth worker, cuz I was like, I reasonably could take gray most places. I could start it with almost zero overhead. Um, and I could, it would be the biggest bang for your buck. I knew, like the couple friends I could ask to be like, could you take gray for an hour? Would be the consult time. And then the. Hiccups would be births, but I figured by the time I got to the birth, I would've been paid for a consult and I'd be able to hire somebody to cover like, what was my logic? But I knew I had to strategically think I'm, I cannot ask for time and I cannot ask for money. They're like, they're, they're not available to me. So whatever it is, it has to be like me providing all the, like unpaid labor, unpaid parenting plus something that's profitable. Um, and so that felt really, really scary and stressful, but it felt like a very sweet relief when I was like, oh, I think birth work will meet this criteria. Um, because. I, I could make it work without having to ask. Um, and I, I think a lot of you can relate to that feeling of not having, you know, financial autonomy, um, which is a term we felt like really nice. So from not having financial autonomy all the way to folks that can very much identify that they're in a financially abusive situation. So there's the whole range. Um, and so Marissa and I, when we're sharing our stories, I mean, we were, we sat in a financial abuse situation, but I mean, most of the reasons why people either can't hire a birth worker or can't grow their birth worker business, so both sides of it is because there hasn't been permission granted for the resources to be allocated to that. So, Marissa, when you say that's the number one reason why people don't get a birth worker as well, is that their husband or partner says no about the money. Yeah, it might be, I don't know if it is the number one reason, but it's a really big one. And one thing that I just wanted to mention when talking about this, which I did not understand at the time, and I came to understand later on as I learned about the legal process of everything, um, is that, you know, it is a way that patriarchy has built in the oppression of women by, uh, you know, like the men are the bread winner. They are just making the money. And for some reason we kind of just think about like, is there money? Even though if we, even if we say it's like the money for the family, there is always just like a certain, uh, entitlement and a certain like authority that comes from being the person that is bringing the money to the table. Um, and then when I start researching about this, and it's different and in every stage, but from a legal point of view, I just want everyone to know that really. It's not their money . It is, uh, both of the person's money. You know, if I somehow happened to have died during childbirth, um, he would need to pay someone else to pay to take care of our child. He would need to find a way to make the meals. I was thinking because I was doing care work and care work is, uh, universally kind of taught us like, you know, female and not valuable. Uh, most the . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is very interesting because the world depends on it. Uh, if we like a scale back and we're not thinking about like our family unit and we think about the world as, as a whole, um, someone has to take care of the babies, you know, even if they go to like some sort of like free daycare that is like subsidized by the government or something, who's taking care of those babies in the daycare? Is women, like the vast majority of the time is women who are usually, like, if they're working a place like that, a lot of the times, like away from their own children, uh, not getting paid a lot of money. Somebody has to take care of sick people. Somebody has to take care of elderly people. Um, and usually it's always women and it's always unpaid work and it has to be done. It really keeps economy moving. It keeps the world moving, but patriarchy has made it so that it is considered just, I don't know, invisible and unimportant and definitely unpaid. And we may understand in theory if we're having a conversation that that's bullshit, but when it comes down to our own lives, it can be really hard to. Like put one on one together, right? And say, oh, I am doing this work. It is important, it needs to be done. If I wasn't doing it, someone else would be needing to get paid for it. So it is not just your partner's money because they are working and they're bringing a paycheck. So that, that was like one point that it took me a very long time to understand, and I think I came to understand that when I finally actually went into getting a divorce and I sat down with a divorce lawyer that explained to me this is how it works. I. And hearing it from an authority figure was just like, oh, okay. All right. So all this stuff that I had been kind of just justifying in my mind to myself is actually supported by the law nowadays, kind of recently, you know, honestly because the history of how women have been oppressed, it wasn't always the case. Um, like just as recently as our grandmothers couldn't have their own bank account. So things have changed and they continue to change. But we do know now that in most places, um, that money is both of yours. It's not only your partner, even if you are not getting a paycheck. Yeah. And it's really hard to understand. And I mean, if we start looking at money and time, cuz I know some people here might be like, okay, well we don't have both me and my husband don't have money when we're talking about in a hetero context. But I'm like, well then we're looking at the other resources that you do have and that's your time. And I remember, um, Having, like if I wanted to go to a consult, for example, and I couldn't figure out another plan, I would literally ask him like, it would be like my last, last resort because it would be just so terrible. And so I remember though, if I did that, I'd be like, okay, but don't worry, I did the bath. Like I'd do like right after, you know, like the late lunch I'd done bath, the stuff's laid out. The, the literally the diaper would be on the change table for sleep with the pajamas right next to it with the lotion right on it like, like laid out, like so much work, like two, three hours of work to get that hands free time. And then if, you know, she wasn't sleeping when I got home, it would be like, well she wouldn't go to sleep with the pump milk. So like then I would just be doing the normal bedtime thing anyway at 9 30, 10 o'clock at night. Um, and then into the night, the night waking, like all of that stuff. But I remember the amount of time that it would take to just get that hands free time to go to a prenatal or to go to a consult. Um, Was, I didn't realize how much it was until I was divorced and, and single parenting where I'd actually be like if I called somebody to do a barter. Cuz I also still was a little bit under-resourced for a bit. It was very tr like, it was easy. It took me one minute to be like, I need you to come watch Gray from this time to this time. And I could either pay or I would do an exchange of something else, make food, take their kid another time. Um, and I didn't actually have to do all of that other prep stuff. And so I actually got like, 200% of my day back because Yeah. Um, there wasn't all the weird negotiation and then the anxiety, the anxiety I would feel before asking. I'd be like, oh man, I still haven't asked about next Thursday. And I'd be like, so nervous and I'd would wanna wait until he was in a good mood and then he'd be like, playing video games. He'd be like, oh, this might irritate him. Is that too much stimulus? Okay, wait, should I wait in the morning? But if he's running, and I was like, this was all just to like get the, get the courage to. Advocate for my time, um, my time doing something that was also making money for the household versus like, he never had to advocate for his time. He'd either come home from work or he wouldn't, he'd go out or he wouldn't, he'd do a job that was wildly underpaid because he liked it, like all of these things. So we just wanna flag some of them because some might not be relatable to you, but some you might be like, oh yeah, I do have that same feeling. Or I need, I know I need to, like, really choose wisely. So if a friend asks you to do something and another friend asks and you have a consult, you, you know, you might only be allowed to pick one or two of the three. And you might say something like, I've been out a lot this week, so I haven't seen the kids like all of that shit to like, make it okay for you. Um, but the reality is your resources, whether that's time or money. And for most of us, they're not, they're not yours. Well, Marissa and I have all of them back now cuz we left Yeah. And the, and the emotional resources, you know, we're talking about money, we're talking about time. And then there's also like, the emotional thing for me, one of the things was like if I needed to ask my partner to take care of my kid, maybe he would be like a little upset, but he would do it. Um, and then he would just kind of, for, for many weeks I had to pay the price of, um, the guilt. Right? Yeah. Just like, what was the point of that? What was the point of you stepping away from our family, from you taking these resources from our family? Like what are you getting back? And that was very hard because motherhood is its own whole conversation. Um, but um, yeah, like I would struggle a lot with that. I would struggle a lot with, my kid was very young at that time. He was not even too yet, and we were very close together, so he had a really hard time. Every time that I left, he would cry. He nursed all the way until he was three. So for me to step away was time that he would be unhappy, that he would be sad, that he missed me, that he wanted to nurse, that he wanted to have me close. And that was very hard for me to deal with. If I leave my kid with a friend and my kid cries and misses me, my friend is not gonna come back and be like, well, look at how shitty of a mom you are by leaving your kid. You know? Yeah. My friend is gonna be like, Hey, you need your own, your need, your time to grow, your interests, to grow your passions. As opposed to someone who was like insidiously, like here and there throwing these comments about just like, do you only care about yourself? Yeah. Ironically, our kids didn't feel as comfortable because they actually spent very little time with the other parent, um, which is no surprise why they wouldn't find it soothing to have bedtime with them. Like, I had friends who could put grade to bed. Gray was also like a newborn. Newborn. Like I had my doula practice and she was like weeks old. Um, and because I was frantic to like, fucking figure it out, get out, um, and get out and, yeah. And so. And I re, I like all of that stuff. And I was like, she actually cried the whole time I was gone because you're kind of a stranger. Like, you know, I also wanna hold that maybe he's become a better person. I have no contact. Gray has no contact, but I like, I trust that he's got two new other children and I hope he's, I hope for their sake that he's a better parent. Um, but I know then my experience 15 and a half years ago, , it was, it was not. And it was, um, it was really, really hard. Like what Marissa's saying, those consequences and those punishments and, and the story is not like we're sharing our stories because we hear it all the time. Um, I get probably two to three emails a week from our community of people saying this exact thing, like, it's too hard, my husband's not supportive. Um, how fast will I be making money? And so that's a topic we wanna talk about right now is the realities of like getting your partner on board because husbands are the number one reason why. Women in business, why our businesses fail. Um, we're speaking very gendered right here, and we're talking about a hetero context only because there's limited research for queer families. And then there are things that us queers just do a little bit better . Um, so that's awesome. Um, but there, it, it is, it's really, really hard parenting when and having a business with an unsupportive partner or husband. Um, so Marissa, what would be some of the things that you wished 2015 Marissa had heard about, you know, getting your partner on board or what kind of conversations would've been really helpful for you? I think you had like a little spiel that that you were saying and I was just like, yeah, like I really wish I could have had that, uh, for me, not for my partner. It was kind of like a conversation that was directed towards the partner, kind of just explaining, um, the things that, the realistic expectations. But it was for me more like what I needed to hear as opposed to what my partner would have heard, because he wouldn't have heard to any of it, you know, he was just like a hundred percent focused on, um, His own thing. I don't even actually want to name what it was because I don't know, you know, whatever it was that he was focused on, it was not me and my dreams and my successes and my goals. Uh, and, and that's okay. Like that is for me to hold, I guess like in some kind of partnerships, probably healthy partnerships, uh, people worry about each other's goals. But like at that point, the only person that was gonna care about what I was trying to build was gonna be me. Um, and I think I needed to focus more of my attention on myself and less on trying to convince someone else that what I was doing was worthy. I needed to convince myself that I was worthy and that I had enough to offer. But it is very hard with this whole thing we were talking about with the pressure for success and. Kind of measuring out like how long is it gonna take for me to make money? How long is it gonna take for me to have like a returning investment? How, how long is it gonna be until I have a busy practice? And I am lucky to an extent that I had my mom, because my mom is a business owner. She started her, she's a vet, she's a veterinarian, and she started clinic. Didn't know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She, she has a hospital now, but she started like her little tiny clinic when I was eight years old. And I remember how it was for her to start her business because I was at an age where I was like very aware of what was going on. I understood the sacrifices. I remember we had to sell a a car so that she could afford to like sign the lease for the place that she was gonna rent for having her little clinic. And she would always tell me, um, the first year that you start your business, you will most likely not even earn enough money to buy a pack of gum. And that's accurate. Now I see she's very successful and she was able to put both my sister and I through college on her own because my parents got divorced when I was 16. And I always joked that I got divorced from my dad too at the time because I never really heard from him again., I, I did a little bit, but I was just not really interested in having a relationship with him. So my mom split up. My, my dad kind of disappeared and he never really help with any of her, uh, expenses anymore. And my mom with her sole business was able to put us both through college and, uh, I mean, we had scholarships and we work and everything, but, uh, it's not so easy and. Hearing that from her that it was gonna take time, and that the first year I wasn't gonna make that much money was a big inspiration for me because I understood that if I just kept working hard and following my passions, eventually I was gonna see, um, the results. Even though, um, I didn't have like a super clear idea of how fast I was gonna be making money. And that is different for everybody too. Um, mm-hmm., I, I think it took me a very long time, like the first year that I was working in my business. I work a lot. I was plugging and creating all these different offerings and creating classes and throwing events that nobody would show up to. And I was doing this all the time. and I think I took two clients the whole entire first year that I was in business. Mm-hmm.. And then it wasn't until the year after that things really started picking up and I started making more money. But even at that point I remember having a lot of hostility from my partner. I have like a text message that I pulled that at some point during my whole, like trying to understand this relationship where I was at a birth, a very long, difficult birth. And he like angry, texted me all this stuff and one of them said, um, because he, I wasn't back by the time that he had to go back to work. And he was like, so I'm gonna miss my day of work that is giving me a paycheck so that you can waste our resources on some volunteer bullshit work that benefits only. And I was like, all right, here, here we go. Like, I am pouring my heart and soul into supporting someone through such a traumatic birth, such a difficult birth, and these are the kind of messages that I'm getting. Because he was furious that he was gonna have to miss his day of work to take care of her child. Yeah. I'm so sorry that happened. Yeah. So I have pages of those as well. I, I kept them and put them in a binder in my business closet. I don't know why, but they're there. And, well, I think it's important because you also just need to, um, it's so easy to forget these things and to minimize them to ourselves, you know, because we want to make these relationships work for whatever reason we want to. We have been sold for so many years, the myth of the nuclear family and the mom and the dad and the kid walking through the park and having a picnic. You know, and we dream of these. And we think that if we, if we are nice enough, if we work hard enough, if we, um, come up with the right things to say and we cook the perfect meals for husbands, or, and we don't ask the right balance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We will come up with this, um, formula that will provide us with this family. It, it can be really easy to minimize this kind of, sometimes they are microaggressions, sometimes they're pretty macro. Um, and I think that folder in your closet is just kind of reminding you, you didn't make it up. It happened. Yeah. That's helpful. It did happen. And it was, it's funny, I don't have a lot of contact since we, like, we had a very litigious, terrible, terrible long drawn out. Separating of nothing, which is the weirdest part. Um, mostly because it was fun to abuse me, I suspect. And so, um, but I, I like remember trying to build my business and it was, you know, two things came up. One was, um, I actually didn't want my money to go in the family pot that I was making from my business. Um, and so I was, it was very hard to navigate through that space of like not being like, this is for our family. Even though every penny I spent on it was for our family. Like I set up RSPs, for example, so that Gray would have her college paid for. So I was like, I know that I'm poor is shit, but like, I know education is important and I know she's only a baby right now, but like at some point this kid will probably wanna go to some something after high school and I wanna be able to like proudly be like it's paid for. Um, so I started with that. Um, he didn't think lessons were important and I like the lessons were like swimming at the y Like they weren't fancy, but those were always like seen as stupid and, and like not for. Um, and you know, like having more than one sleeper, like anything above that was considered frivolous and dumb. And so all of the things I bought were like things that were still for the family that I, but I felt really good to not have to ask. But the, but the problem was, is that, Um, I did have to ask for some of the things to go make the money and then it was, that was hard cuz my business did take off right off the jump. Like, I made a lot of money. Um, like considering I went from $0 to like, you know, having two, $3,000 a month come in was like, that's a, that's a massive amount of money. And so I needed a, a safety fund to get the fuck out of there. And b I needed to do the things that he thought were silly. So like there was rarely money to, to get diapers. So I was like, I know that I can gut anything. I need to have gray in my world functioning. Um, and. That felt really, really important. But it was, it was hard to navigate through those, those two spaces. And it's really hard to do heart centered work when you're getting abused at home, like, period. And it might be, they might be those microaggressions, but like, that shit stacks up y'all. Or it might be like blatant abuse, which, um, is very rampant in folks doing heart centered work. I would say of any of our gatherings, um, the majority of you share stories that you're in a situation that, um, might be like, Ooh, that's a little bit not, not awesome for you. All the way to, like, how do, how do we get you into safe housing? Um, and so it's, it's really hard doing that work when you go home to situations where you're not celebrated or you can't relax or you can't be just taken care of in your basic needs. And I don't even mean like awesome partners that would bring you tea and tuck you into bed, um, but like just a place where you could, you know, debrief and relax and, and breathe and feel okay. Um, it's, it's not the case for most of us. I mean, Marissa and I both have that now, and I hope many of you are seeking that out. Um, but. You might, some of you might have a healthier relationship and muzzle top and that's awesome. And so then the, the conversation still needs to be that bounded one that Marissa is talking about. Like the reality is it's going to take you longer than you think to make money potentially. Um, it's also possible to do it faster. I didn't have to tell anybody, so it worked out really well, , but I like mine was very profitable right away. Um, but for most people it will take you a bit more time. And, um, and so you need to make sure that you're having a conversation around that reality. Whether you've got a dysfunctional relationship or a really healthy flowing, you wanna build a life together relationship, um, you need to sit and say it's gonna take at least 22 hours a week and not just your time leaving for consults, it's also driving time and printing time and editing the contract time. And then that's not even working like on your business, that's just the work in your business. You're still gonna have to go market and go to networking things and all of that. And that needs to be built in because one of the comments that made Marissa and I had some urgency to getting this podcast episode out was, um, the, the general consensus that, um, there's a, there's a stopwatch like, okay, fine, go see if you can start a business and go, and the clock's like as you're frantically trying to get your business going, um, but nothing's been taken off your plate. Um, so it's all well and good to be like, you have six months and this better be profitable. Or like, you don't get to do this birth work job anymore. Um, it's only a reasonable six months if the unpaid labor is now being. Given away to the other parent or contracted out, or at least like split in some kind of equitable way and not just like, you have six months and you better do it through nap time and when the baby's asleep or when the kids are in bed or early in the morning before everyone wakes up, which is how most people make their businesses, man, what we can build with nothing is incredible. I just wanna throw that out. Yeah, I, I, it makes me think just because , I, I think back at all the other episodes that we have recorded in the podcast, including Darcy, and then I think about Mara where she was saying, just because I have superpowers, it doesn't mean you're entitled to them. Um, yeah, we can build so much magic with nothing. That doesn't mean that we should be doing it with nothing. It really does, uh, require, especially for preventing burnout, right? Because you can just keep on working and working and working super hard and eventually your richer breaking point. Yeah. It is ugly when you get there. Exactly. We can create magic with nothing, but we really want to try to make it in the most fair way where unfair, it's, it's sad and unfair that we would even need to have to fight for having some of our time back. But it requires some conversations and, and you know, we, we come from these relationships that were very unhealthy. And I know some people come from better relationships and it's not that your partner is sitting over there plotting of how are they gonna steal your joy and your time away. They are just used to it. They're entitled to, they feel entitled to it because that's how they were raised, because that's how they saw it in the movies, because that's how they saw it with all the families that were around them. So for a lot of them just takes a little bit of time to really become a. Aware of the current dynamics and sit down and have really profound, uh, hard opening conversations about how we can find more equality in these relationships. But that work needs to be done. And unfortunately, most of the times it's not gonna be your partner who's gonna be like, wow, I really notice how you're doing most of the work, because they don't, they don't notice it. It's like invisible to them. Is, um, there is that essay that someone wrote about the invisible backpack. I don't remember if it was about white privilege or if it was about male privilege, but it was about privilege, right? Part of what makes privilege possible is that the person that holds the privilege most of the times is invisible to them. They are not able to see it. So we do need to have these conversations. Fortunately, a lot of the times it will be more emotional work for us to do. And I wish it was not that way. But if we don't get started with that, it's gonna be really hard to find that, um, balance so that we have more time to invest in ourselves and in our business and in our dreams. And ultimately, it's not only the money that you are gonna be bringing into your family, it's also just how much more yourself and how much more joyous you will be able to be for your family, for your partner, for your children, when you are. Fulfilling your life purpose as opposed to just sitting around feeling lost and depressed and sunken. Yeah. No, it's, it's, well, we deserve it. And there's so many books that are talking about like, when did our time become up for grabs, essentially? Like when, when was this the deal that it had to be 24 7 and anything else is selfish in all the rage? There's a, um, Darcy has gathered some of the research that they have about there, about, um, Configurations of family in the space, like space time configurations. And the most common configuration is dads alone in a room. Um, and so, you know, doing whatever they wanna do, watching TV on their phone, reading, napping, um, but like of waking hours, um, that configuration versus the moms were never alone in a room, um, including the bathroom. And it was always like some kind of engagement action parenting, um, like your time is just not yours. And so, um, it, it, it is yours. You just, it's like, I don't know where this fucking deal came from. Um, that with parenthood meant you were available 24 7 and that you, you can't go, go have a job and go have a career. Go have a hobby or leisure time or self care time, like true self care time, like loving yourself, getting right with yourself, meditating, crying, journaling, like. Nurturing yourself, the way you, we nurture our clients and nurture our children and other, you know, community members and our extended family and our aging parents. Um, and so our pets even like, we deserve to have that kind of time and care from ourselves as well. And so I think that the conversation really needs to be like rights based, but it's, there's a way to do it that you guys can, can hear one another. Um, and a lot of the times, the first step for getting our time is, is like proving that it's not a frivolous waste of family resources. Um, so we have to prove that it's gonna be revenue generating or like if they do that, you then will have hands free time to like, do the laundry faster, get the mail done faster, pay the bills faster. Clean the oven faster. Um, rather than you get the same hands free time to sit either on Candy Crush or start a movement or write a book or read or paint your nails. Like it doesn't matter. Um, because your partners don't have to have that negotiation and they just take that time. Um, and so, you know, like Marissa said, they might be coming at it because they're, they're not intentionally doing it or some of them are very intentionally doing it. Um, but either way, as you build your business and just like start centering yourself, choose you, for you, you will have to have a conversation about it. I know it can be really hard having these conversation with your partner around, you know, what's actually happening. Um, from almost an evidence perspective, especially when we feel really emotionally charged. So the interview we had with Mara Gladwell, she had a really helpful tool around the Sunday check-in. You can make it whatever day you want, and you essentially keep a running list of things you wanna discuss, and you have that conversation no matter what. Um, so whether you're super happy or you're really fighting, the conversation happens. So it's never rooted in a punitive way, it's just like part of the operations of the house. So you can add lists of things that you've been having, you know, rotate in that mental lobe hamster wheel. Like, you know, did you get the snow tires ordered or did you cancel the lawn service? Did you send in the warranty for the dishwasher? Did you RSVP to the birthday party? And so you just put it on the list and you and your partner can talk. Um, so that's a really helpful tool. But one of the other ones is actually just having some concrete evidence of what's really happening. So I know that this was one of the issues I used to have, um, with a previous partner and. Um, when it was feelings, it was really easy to say like, I always, or you never, but rather if you just keep track of the hours. So, um, when Gray was little, she still had contact with her sperm donor. And when we'd have these conversations where it was really obvious, I'd say things like, you've actually only been home, you know, 11 waking hours. That's really helpful. Instead of saying, you're never home, cuz it's really hard to argue with that. So I would consider keeping like a time journal or a task journal and it's not in a score keeping way. Well, I guess it kind of is, but it's, it gives you concrete evidence to actually talk about inequity. And it's one of the things that, um, Darcy Lockman talks about in all the rage is once people start keeping journals with like how many tasks they did with the kids, or how many hours or how long bedtimes takes, or like really what that division looks like. it could be helpful to have like an empirical tool that you can be working with to make a plan. So that's something that I wish somebody had told me when I was a 20 something. So rather than trying to like, just prove it instead with just like my feelings and, and trying to come up with examples, when you're really activated and your brain is, you know, firing and you're, you're in that rage state, um, rather than just like all the time, just kind of keep a journal of it. And it might be helpful to facilitate some of those conversations or support you in making a decision to make some major changes, like leaving a relationship that's no longer serving you. That is not the goal. Obviously our goal is for whatever makes everybody have the most joy, the most happiness, the most autonomy, the most respect and feel the most loved. Um, but, but that might be a starting off place to begin some of the negotiations around more equity at home. With unpaid labor and the second shift. And inevitably we also need to have the conversation that sometimes you do need to end the relationship. And we come from that place as two people that and those relationships. And now see the other side. Because I know for so many people it can be so scary to think about that. You asked me what I wish I could tell myself, my younger self, um, when I was going through that whole struggle through the trying to decide if I should leave or not, and. I think, I mean, I try so many different things to make that relationship work. Uh, I took an envi communication training. I went to family therapy. I read a bunch of books about marriage. I read articles and sent those articles to my partner. He read them, so I read some parts aloud. Um, I tried to make charts to keep track of the labor I was putting for the family. I, I mean, at some point I even tried to be this compliant happy wife that never asked for anything for herself and was always happy. And I always had dinner at the table, but ultimately I realized, uh, I really couldn't stay in that relationship without losing myself and without giving up on my dreams and my passions and also in my business. Um, and then later on when I was, um, already going through the divorce process and it was like very traumatic and very difficult, very high conflict. Um, I was fortunate enough to be going through therapy and I had this one therapist, um, she was amazing. And one time I was telling her how like I was actually dealing with a lot of guilt of feeling like, I could have done more to make the relationship work. I could have been nicer. Maybe I was too mean, maybe, um, I was too selfish. That's something that he told me constantly that I was too selfish, that I only care on myself, that, that I should be more sacrificing. Right. And, um, I was kind of just like coping with a lot of those things and just kind of dealing with that. And I remember my therapist asking, why do you feel like it was your responsibility? Why do you feel like it was your, your job to make the relationship work? And of course then at that point, I realized, um, I don't remember. She, she gave me some context. She gave me some words. And it really clicked for me that, of course, as women, we are constantly expected to be in charge of everyone else's feelings. And. It is almost like, uh, we are indoctrinated to think that this is her life purpose, right? To find these heterosexual, monogamous love of her life that will create this nuclear family. And that is our job to make it work. And I, I really, I, I put a lot of work into it and it was not balance, right. I think I had a lot of awareness of how the work that I was putting. And taking the household and taking care of my kid. And my kids at that point, um, were that that labor was very, obviously not balanced, but I did not realize how un balanced it was in the emotional aspect that I was really working really hard to try to make this relationship work. And my partner was not. Um, my partner was just waiting for me to change and to be just happy with, uh, what he had to offer, which was very, very little in every way. Uh, and then I just thought about my mom and she stayed married for 16 years and I thought to myself like, wow. Like I really, I could keep renewing this for another 10 years, maybe even 20 years, um, potentially even my whole life. And do I really want to waste that time into trying to prove to someone else that my time matters, that my dreams matter, that my passions matter, that I matter. And I realized I didn't want to do that anytime that I tried to work from home. If my kids were there, they knew that I was there and they wanted to be with me. And I could never really focus a hundred percent on the work that I wanted to do. And it was just starting to get, so it was, it was destroying me, you know? It was like really burning me out. It was such a bad place to be at. And I realized that the only way that I was gonna be able to regain that time was gonna be to be in a different space and. It started by just like, okay, I need to get out of the house when I'm working. I'm gonna go to a coffee place. And at some points I was like, actually, I need to get out of this house. Like get out, get out. Like we need to split up. And it was really terrifying. And I think I hear a lot of people that are just like in this place and especially, um, people that are either already single, that are worried to start a business because they don't know how they're gonna be able to be single parents and be able to start their business. Or people that are not single parents and they're afraid to become single parents because they don't think that they can make it work, um, without their partners and. There is a lot of different aspects to that. Uh, for me it was like literally my partner would say like, you would never be able to make this work without me. And I believed it for such a long time. I really did believe it. Same dito, . But when you take that leap, so many things become easier. And that's kind of another part that we wanted to talk about. What Bianca was saying about, um, you, you regained so much by not having to ask for permission for so many different things and you can build, uh, life around that so that you can support clients and, and have your kids. And it depends, you know, there are different configurations. Like I, at the beginning I tried like the 50 50 and then I went for a long time where I was pretty much solo parenting and now I'm back to 50 50. But Bianca has been. Pretty much solar parenting 100% of the time. Grace, soul life. Yeah, yeah. Grace, whole life, you know, but like, um, I, I'm just saying it can be done and some people are very, very afraid of that. And it's financially scary and is emotionally scary and it's hard to let go of that picture of the nuclear family. There are so many different aspects of it, but sometimes you do need to do that and you find so much more freedom and so much more joy and such a better life for yourself and for your children on the other side. Yeah, and, and the things that I used to worry about. Or like, cuz I had the same fear and he used to say like, you can only do your little tinkering because you don't have to pay rent, for example. Which like, shit y'all, I was paying rent times a thousand by being an enslaved person and I was 24 7. Um, so I paid my rent in nonstop, um, sweat equity and emotional labor and unpaid labor. Um, but like once I realized, cuz I was really scared to leave because of, um, I didn't want gray to have this like break of the nuclear family because I grew up in a really like a family that they had things about it. I admired with my parents together and like a Christmas card and like all of that shit. But what it connected to me was really like, um, graying me shine. So I wasn't shining there. I couldn't shine at work because, I was withering. I was, it was, it was terrible. And so you can get like really creative cuz if you think right now you have a terrible roommate and your partner. Um, and so I was like, go get a good roommate. So I felt really like that gray would be cheated to be a kid growing up with like a mom with a roommate, for example. And then I realized that it wasn't the case at all, um, and that when I was ready to have a romantic relat. It would happen. Um, like one that was really like healthy and awesome for, great to see, which thank you, Haley. She, she we're here. Um, and so, um, so I got a roommate and I had to exchange students those like plans where the agency places them and I'd have silent students that would like, I don't even know. It felt like they weren't even there, like these ghosts in this house. And so I could have a big house. So we actually had like the things that felt really important to me that I didn't have in. Apartment situation that was really terrible and toxic and fighting and yelling and sadness and me crying and name calling. And her seeing me have terrible things said from a, from a man, like all of this stuff. So I like got super creative and, and then when I, cuz at first I was nervous like Marissa because I'd have this like, you can't do it because you don't even know, you don't even have to pay the bills. So you have all the time in the world to work on your business cuz you're just home doing nothing. Um, and I was like, oh, I was worried about that, but I actually having financial autonomy and I know I'm really good at budgeting, I know I'm fiscally responsible. I know I hustle, not hustle culture, but like hustle to like make shit happen. And um, it was, I got everything I wanted and I was like, now I'm paying the rent and I'm paying bills and I get to eat the food I want. I get to have the phone I want, I get to have put gray in whatever lessons we want. Like I never need you again. Um, and it was actually really awesome. I need so much less work. It's so much less work., it's really just like you have one less child. One less child. So much less laundry, so many less dishes, so much less cleaning. Because for such a long while I thought it was because of my kids. And then I realized it was not, I realized it was just because of my partner. And I, I remember something so silly to me, but it just like so symbolic. This, when I got my fir my own place, I got so many plans and my house was just like full of plants. I never could have any plans when I lived with my, with my ex, like I had like one or two and they would always die. I felt like I could never get them like enough light, enough love, enough water. And um, once I got out, I had enough life and enough love and enough water and enough shine to share with these plants and like my house became this beautiful. Safe place of, um, beauty and wonder, uh, what I was able to finally get out of that. Yeah, that's so funny about the plants. I now, being in a safe relationship, this is the first time I could have plants and my house is full of plants and I never have in any other period of my life. So again, thank you Haley, for growing a safe house with me. Um, and um, there was lots of things when I used to look at the budget that I also was really scared about that. I was like, oh, I don't know how I'm gonna swing all of this. But I realized the heat was lower because, I don't know, I just existed in a different way. Um, I didn't need cable or like sports packages and not to like be gendered. I love sports. I now have all the sports packages cuz Haley and I follow the mba like mofos. Um, but at the time I was like, I don't have time for this. I have a baby and a business. Um, so cutting all of these things that I thought we needed, I didn't have a home phone line. Um, I got roommates and a, and an exchange student that just like rotated in every three to six, nine months. Um, and so I actually realized that it wasn't as expensive to live as I had imagined before. Cuz so much of this stuff was like having a barbecue. Like all these things that I was like, I actually don't need a TV or a barbecue or a sports package or a home phone line or karaoke machine or a game console or like, I don't need to cook. I actually don't even think I turned the oven on because of how great I eat was like a cocktail party of like hummus and vegetables and crackers and cheese. And so there was all these places that, that I was like gray and I can exist and actually quite frugally just because of who we are. We're super readers. We do puzzles. We would rather draw eat maybe if we remember, cuz we both just are get hyper focused on tasks. And so our life actually was like really quiet and simple and awesome and. And then I actually had so much space to work on my business because gray was calmer cuz there wasn't conflict and chaos. And so like, I didn't actually realize how many of the ripple effects were stemmed from. I mean, I don't know why we're surprised about this., could you believe that harm and abuse rippled and touched every single area of one's life?? It's because we didn't, we didn't have the tools to name, well, at least for me, I didn't have the tools to name it as harm as abuse, you know? Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of people are. Like, um, we are at a weird place in our time in society where we hear so many stories about how women are quote unquote exaggerating, exaggerating the abuse, exaggerating the situations. And we are so afraid, at least I was so afraid of being one of the people that was exaggerating and taking away from the quote unquote real victims. Um, so that's part of it, but. Yeah, it, it is scary to leave and when there are some really real challenges and I love how you got creative around this. Bianca, I also had a roommate for a while. Like one of my really, really beloved dear friends came to leave with me for the first like six months that I, that I had split up from my ex. And I mean, that's just honestly a very rare situation because she was just magic. She just showed up like a fairy, um, and helped me make a beautiful home. And I'm a vegetarian. She became a vegetarian for the time that she lived with, with us so that we would always just be able to share meals. And she, um, loved my children and she would sometimes hang out with them while I was going to birds. And that was a big part of it. It was really hard to. I was very scared of the childcare situation because yeah, I don't have any family in the country. I, I cannot take my kids to their grandma. I cannot take my kids to their auntie, you know, like all my family's away. So I was really worried about that. And for a while after I split up for my ex, we were still in good enough terms that, that I was still relying on, on him for when I was going to, to births. Mm-hmm.. Uh, but it was very, it was like a continuation of the same thing, you know? He was like always kind of upset about it. Um, I remember there was this one birth that the kids stayed with my friend slash roommate, and she was really sick and she needed to. To sleep. And I had to leave the birth when my client got an epidural to go to my ex's house and knock on his door and wake him up and ask him to go pick up the kids because it was his time to have the kids because he was not going to pick them up because he also wouldn't go pick them up. I had to go drop them off. Oh, it, it was his turn to have to have them. Right. So he said that he was gonna go pick them up. He said he was gonna be like there at like eight o'clock in the morning, and I

think it was like 3:

00 PM and he was still sleeping and I had to like go wake him up and, and you know, every single time that I was trying to rely on this person. It was just taking so much more than when I actually like ripped the bandaid and decided I couldn't rely on this person anymore, that I needed to find other creative ways to do it. And then all the magic happened once I made that decision and I started just coming up with like trades. I found people that I could pay for being on call with me. I found like all these like very unique, magical situations that ended up working really, really well. Yeah, and it was hard to make that decision that I was gonna, um, find my own ways to do these things. But once I made that decision, like my creative juices. Uh, came out, you know, and started finding all these solutions as opposed to just, uh, being so, so scared and keep on relying on something that is not working anymore. Yeah, you get creative. Natasha is a huge shout out to Natasha Marchand. Um, you know, we built Babe Mia together and, and we parted ways last year. She's going in a different non reproductive health, um, direction. And, but like we, we did that together. We were both in very, very abusive partnerships, like financially time, verbal, um, really, really bad, like where we didn't shine and we didn't thrive. And, you know, everyone can have whatever comments they want, but from the two people who existed in that space, it was, it was bad for both of us. And she was trying to conceive and I had just had gray. And so we actually together, even though she still lived with her husband up until a few years ago, um, She'd sleep over. And because we're both birth workers, like the work we did could be on our laptop and we could network together before we partnered and, and merged our businesses together to make me bo me up. But at the time, um, you know, she could, she, she would take grace. So if I was at a birth as long as she was not running to a birth, I knew I could, you know, that Gray was it, she was in my bed at home with Gray. And um, and it was like such a sweet relief because I remember the, the stress when the few times it was with, um, grace sperm donor, it was like, He'd be texting like, how much longer like that, you know? And so I'd have that like anxiety. So when they did the check and they'd be like, six centimeters, which means nothing. Like you have no idea how much longer you're gonna be. And, and I'd always have this like, I'm so sorry. And then I'd be like texting, trying to find other people to come get her. But I'd be like with a client who, who I was like, this is what I'm actually supposed to do. Like this is where I need to be. And in not organizing care, like you, you figure out care. But it always fell to me to like figure it out. And so as it got closer to say 8:00 AM and I knew he'd have to leave to work for example, I'd be so anxious and I'd be like, I've, I've run outta like, I don't know. And texting was still pretty new at the time. They were like paper, text and it wasn't now. Um, but it was always this like frantic, like I can remember that like your stomach hurts and your heart's racing and your armpits are prickly cuz you know you need to come up with a solution and.

It's hard to get ahold of people at 8:

00 AM who can take your kid from your ex who's pissed and you're at a birth where like, you know, and you're trying to look present, but really your world's constantly shifting under your feet. Um, which it's bonkers. I mean, I know gray's older now, but like, I just, I feel, I, I wish I can feel so much compassion and empathy for the baby birth worker in me. Um, cuz now I could leave gray. She's a teenager. But, um, at the time it was like I have a lot of compassion and I'm just like, how did you survive that? How did you have five or six births a month and parent a neurodiverse, very, very curious child and, and existed an environment that was so fucked. And grow a viable business. Like that's why sometimes when people, I don't know, when they're either glib about business or you hear people like this get rich quick, or when people have assumptions about me as a business owner, I was like, I went to hell and back to build this. Like there wasn't a single flip and step about getting here. Um, so a. Fuck off those people and be . I'm so, I'm so proud. Like I stop sometimes and I just look at my laptop or I just like take a breath and while I'm teaching a class and I look at all of you and I mean, I don't get to look at you podcast people, but I love you so much. The fact you listen, every time I see somebody downloaded or followed or liked, I'm like, fuck, thank you. I, I see you. Thank you. But when I get to like look in a classroom or be on Zoom with 60 excited people in book club, I have this like, wow, how the heck did you do that? Cause like, it shouldn't have been, it shouldn't have been because along the way I also had insane chaos. I lost my dad to suicide. I bought another company. That was the biggest financial mistake of my life. I was, I had multiple other. Domestic violence situations with other partners. I came out, again, , and I did all of this with no family close to me. Um, you know, I had litigation, I had heartbreak, I had, I moved like all these, these very normal life things plus shit that isn't, that is still atypical. Um, and like, I still did it. It was really hard. Like there wasn't a single thing about this that was easy except now, because I know all the mistakes I've made and I know the boundaries. So as soon as somebody makes me feel like I did when Gray was a baby, and in that partnership where I'm like, oh, I'm proving something, I have a like, buy No, no, you're not for me. I'm never gonna like sell myself to somebody again. And so it's no surprise right now our baby team and our community that's like really loud and proud are all like, they all have this element of like, I get it, and there's, there's nothing taken for granted. Like Marissa Marissa's, man, Marissa, I adore you. I love you . Like I got so emotional reading our 2015 email exchange. Yeah, me too. I was just like, wow. Like it's just amazing and beautiful and wonderful to see how things have changed. And I think I just move into this new house now and I got a text from my friend that was my roommate because she came, you know, she's amazing. She doesn't live here, she just keeps on like coming in and out of my life, uh, at all the right, perfect times. But she came and helped me move into this new house and she texted me yesterday and she was like, I'm just so moved by how, like I have seen the whole time, like I have seen the whole story from the beginning and how you were able to build this life for yourself and for, for your kids. And with even more plans and like even better situations and, uh, every time that I feel like is getting really hard and I don't know how I'm gonna get through this particular challenge of. I put my head down like I was told at the beginning, . So what I learned from you guys, and I just keep on working and I just keep on following my passion and then all the things fall into place. And I'm not to say that things are. Gonna be easy or that the path is gonna be smooth, or that everything's just gonna solve itself magically, because sometimes things are gonna be really hard and some things are really painful. I just went through a two and a half year divorce that was so excruciating. It was horrible. It was horrible. It was so traumatic. Um, but now that I'm on the other side, I'm just like, okay, uh, I can, I'm so glad that I have kept on working on this and that I haven't given up. And even though my work has changed a bunch, you know, I used to be very actively attending birds, and now I don't do that anymore. I go to some sunbirds here and there, but I'm doing a lot more of the older work of like educating and capacity building. Working with birth workers and doing other, other things that are still connected to my passion for birth. But I have followed that passion for birth. Mm-hmm. with the tools that I have gained through finding the right community, which has been bem and feeling inspired by all the older people that I have seen grown because pretty much at the same time that I started to, Meg also was a baby birth worker, and I saw her grow in all these different ways and I was inspired by her and I was inspired by other people that I saw, like emerging in this community. And I would follow their pages and I would like everything that they did. And it's just so beautiful to see these group of women just run with their passion and just create something beautiful and magical with it. And I, it, it takes time, but it's so. Satisfying to look back and to see how much we have grown and how much things have changed and how with the right support and the right tools, um, and then not giving up, right? Yeah. We can make beautiful things happen. It's true. The not giving up and it's really rather than not giving up on the tasks because like Marissa and I, we, our businesses have changed. I call this Babe Mia 4.0, like the era we're in starting right now, , um, because it's vastly different. And I would say that 4.0 started in September of this year. Like I can feel we're in a different, like we're doing something different. And um, but it was really like not giving up on ourselves. And when I say ourselves, I mean Marissa to Marissa and Bianca to Bianca, and. The healing that happened with that. And there's gonna be parts that feel really uncomfortable, especially if you've got a, like a relationship that's tumultuous and dramatic and traumatic and, you know, drama and all of that stuff. Um, is the more I realize trying to create equity or like to prove a point in toxic relationships that were relationships that weren't helping me, it actually never served me. And that was really hard for me cuz justice is one of my top values, like fairness, justice, equality. And so, um, I found the most joy and the most growth in my business, in my community and the type of people that I surrounded myself with, like naturally, like the people that just, we were attracted to one another, um, was when I stopped trying to like, make sure something was fair. And I realized the fairest thing is like getting the fuck out of there. Like as we detached into now the point of complete, like being estranged. Um, and before when I used to be like, oh, well, you know, the child support isn't paid and so I'm gonna like fight for that. I actually was like losing a lot of energy around myself and I needed that. So it wasn't even like I was like, oh, whatever. Like I needed that $600 a month and then I needed it. You know, I still probably have tens of thousands of dollars of owed, owed finances, but like the fight for it hurt my business and hurt my movement and hurt me. And it was really hard to swallow that. Um, and so now that I'm at a completely detached stage of my family of origin, which was one of the things cause I was always advocating and fighting to be like seen as something beyond my 11 year old self, um, with my mom and, and you know, going through that with my siblings and trying to do it with grace sperm donor and like a couple x's that the relationships were longer. So there's more like shenanigans after. Um, once I was like, it's not fair. It's not fair that I'm giving you this money. It's not fair that you're not giving me that money. It's not fair that you didn't help time. It's not fair that you get to come to the dance recital even though you had nothing the fuck to do with any of the lessons, the costume, the volunteering, the drop offs, blah, blah blah. Um, once I let go of that, which was one of the hardest things for me because it's a complete, it's my opposite of my comfortable state, not even like, it was a hard stretching learning. Like it feels so wrong in my body, . Um, cuz it's not fair. Um, but then I was like, I could fight for fairness for other people. That has more of an impact and it truly has worked out in the wash. Like, yeah, sure. It would've been cool to have probably that $42,000 over gray's lifetime of. Back payment of court ordered fees and stuff like that. But like right now, having a state where Gray and I are untouched by people unless they like, love and celebrate us, like honestly, I promise you, nothing compares to that. And what I can, the, the space I have to create magic with all of you and, and to like really let those messages in. Like Marisa, her message in 2015, at the time, Marissa's like, I have no money. I dunno what to do, but I know I wanna be here. And I was like, I actually, I needed to be in relationship with Marissa. It was the first time that I was like, I actually don't care that you can't pay. I need, I need to be in community with you. But is Marissa's like magic on like, overload? Like Marissa's a fucking beacon of magic. And so it was that loud that it could get through. Now the message is like much easier that I can, they can just be like, I'm magic. And I was like, oh, hey. Um, and I don't need, I don't need a spotlight and a foghorn sound. Fortunately Marissa exists in that. So it could like fight through my chaos. Um, But like, it, it, it is really, really you, you get, you just get more, you get more. And so it actually didn't even matter to, Marissa couldn't pay at the time cuz the relationship and what Marissa and I have done and just like knowing she's a positive person around me, like a person that loves me. Um, even at times when Marissa got really busy and I got really busy and we would say not talk for eight months, um, it, she's a critical person to have in my orbit. And, and so I, I had the space to see that because I was in less chaos. I was still pretty chaos at that time, but like less, it was six years out from the, the epicenter of it. Um, and so I had the space to be like, oh, you're magic and we need to do something. And we've done lots of things together. Um, And so, I don't know. I know that was kind of like a round of all roundabout, but it's like the musings of what I've learned in my second decade of this, of this shit. Um, and the, the stuff that I had just overlooked, COVID wasn't fair. I should have asked for money and time and you know, every morning when I feel grumpy or grazed in something shitty, I was like, he doesn't even know what her teacher's name is. He doesn't know what color her hair is or how tall she is, and this is all on me. Um, yet you could probably, you can walk into a cocktail party and be like, oh, and I have three kids. And I was like, no, get outta here in my head. Um, but the less time I give that, now that I'm on the other side, I'm like, I have space to shoot the shit with Marissa and do this awesome podcast instead of fucking fighting to get.$1,400 a month that I'm legally owed. That's huge. Bianca, you said that, and I know that this is hard for you because your fairness Oh, pocket's bad. But I was just, um, I don't know if you know this about me, but I had a very brief time of working at a family law office, . I do know that about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, uh, I was just talking to someone about this and it's just like, there you are entitled to this. You are. And I'm not a lawyer, you know, I'm not giving legal advice. I'm just giving it more like as, um, as a person that has gone through it, there's so many things that it's like, yes, you're entitled to this and you're entitled to that, and you're entitled to a lot of things, but how much is it gonna cost? Emotionally, spiritually to be fighting for these things. When even you, if you are entitled to it, you can build that for yourself. Yeah. Uh, with that energy that you're putting into fighting for someone that wants to deny your humanity. Someone that just wants to get this feeling that they want, you know, they just want to feel like they want, they, they need that for proving themselves to like their masculinity or their worth or whatever the situation is. Um, they, they, they want to fight you so hard and when you are fighting for some of these things, like you could be putting that energy into building you Yeah. You into, into building so much more for yourself and then it feels so much better when you build it for yourself. Someone just telling you like, oh, well you have that because I gave it to you. So essentially y'all, if you're thinking about like if you have to negotiate for your time and money right now as a married person, when you might even be able to have sex to equalize or something , um, it's only gonna be a thousand times worse when you leave. And the survival book for that from Marissa and I are like, detach and get the fuck out of there, like detach and get the fuck out of there in all the buckets. Like, be like, yeah, sure, you, you do that. Yeah, sure. The only time I dug my heels in was. He wanted his new girlfriend to have Mother's Day to give her like a fair chance at participating. And I was like, no, I'm gonna fight you on that one.. Uh, no. Um, but like, really, like the more you can just be like, yeah, sure, whatever. Um, and not in a rollover way, but like, if it's shitty to negotiate and if you're fighting to explain why you needed those groceries or that brand of diaper or summer camp for through the church or like whatever the thing is, or that you should be allowed to go to a consult or if they call it babysitting, it's, they're, they're only gonna get worse when you're not living in the same roof potentially. Um, most likely though, like if it's hard to negotiate when you're married, it's gonna be harder to negotiate when you're divorced. Um, and so just the more you can just like detach and focus on your business and focus on you and the things that bring you joy and friendships learned to play an instrument. Like, like the things I did when I had time, I was like, ah. I'm gonna learn how to play some instruments. I'm gonna learn a second language. I'm gonna like, like I actually did those things as a single parent. Like I had that much more heart space, head space, sleep space, like all of it. Um, and I was scared. Gray's a very difficult child. Like she's neurodiverse, she's a handful. It's not like we were like easy breezy, like she still is as hard as she was to parent as when she was three. But like, that's how much bandwidth being in a toxic relationship that didn't serve me, took up and. And not having it. I got to bill Babe Mia to what it is. Marissa got to do all the things which would list mine just all fall under the same umbrella as Babe Mia. But her shit, if you could break it down, like her podcast and her activism and her birth work and her mentorship and her being a peer mentor and all the other education she's done and the advocacy work and the videography and the photography, and that's not even like what she does like as a parent and as a friend and to take care of herself and have house plants, um, it's, it's bonkers. The less you actually had anything to do with him, for you, like trying to split time or get help or whatever was probably actually when you had the most ease and freedom and time in your life. Yeah, I think when I stop, um, fighting and, I mean, and some of it, a lot of it is not fair. You know, it's what you were saying. Oh, like I, I, I look back and I just got, I'm not gonna go super deep into it, but I really got cheated by the whole, um, legal system, the family court. I, my judge for my trial was a white dude that probably didn't even raise his own children, who probably doesn't know anything about tantrums. He was like, oh my God, if a child was crying, therefore it must be a terrible situation. I'm just like, really? Like you have never been around a three year old because they scream and they cry and they throw tantrums and it's just developmentally normal. But anyways, they have the wrong fork color. They wanted the blue one and not the green one. terrible. Mother gave her the wrong color fork, you know? And so much of it is not fair, but, I, you know, you get to this point of just what Bianca was saying, just you let go of some of the things, you fight for, the ones that are worth fighting, and you hope that everything will just kind of like fall by its own weight. And then you, yeah. You, you have all this time and you find all this magic and you have so much more freedom than you ever thought you would, you would have. One thing that I did this year that was super fun is I was the assistant director for a play. I got to do theater. It's something that I had been wanting to do for such a long time, and I never had the time. You know, I was always so busy and I was always so overwhelmed with everything. Uh, and now is, yeah, you, you, you can find so much more freedom and magic when you start choosing yourself. I love that. That feels like a really good finale point, and we really hope that all of you, um, You know, find the little ways that you can start choosing yourself. If you need support, you can always reach out to us. We love talking about this. We have so many ways in our community that you can be held and nurtured as you go through this. Whether you're intending to end your relationship or work on it or start a new one. When you start fresh, you get so many more opportunities to like, start with all the things that you wished you knew in your previous one. Again, thank you Haley . And it's there. There's a, there is a lot of space for joy, even in situations that when you list it would feel really, really terrible or would have some of the markers like being really under-resourced. Marissa and I are coming from places where we do have other places of privilege that we both very much acknowledge, um, with our education and, you know, experiences that we had and our parents and all of those things. And we did this very, very alone and under resource. Um, so I was just laughing in that email that I sent you. Like, I didn't remember, I didn't have a car, y'all, when I started. You lost it in Costa Rica.. I was like, I was like riding my bike over to consoles. I was riding my bike to the hospital, to it.. . Yeah. Um, so, you know, when we are saying, uh, you can make it work even when you don't have resources, we , we mean it, we mean it, we super mean it. I learned how to code. I made my own website. I had zero, zero, $0. Um, I stressed to keep my phone plan alive. Um, I took the bus. I, you know, there was, it was a very, very different time. Um, and so, It is possible. It is possible, but it, it comes from centering you rather than that hustle and push through it, it stop pushing through. If shit's not working, like clear it out. It's if friends aren't working, clear them out. If family aren't working, clear them out. I know it sounds really callous, but it's a, it's self-preservation and I didn't realize it cause I always tried to make it work cuz it felt really mean or I thought it was me or that I was, you know, asking too much. And now I have people that I'm like, oh, I'm not asking too much because I hear how they talk to me. I hear what Meg needs, I hear what Marissa needs, I hear what Kelly needs, I hear what Haley needs and I am, you know, I get to be like, oh no, those are reasonable things. It's just a flow of respect and, um, It's very, very different. And so these are some of the musings we wished we had heard as 20 somethings in, you know, really terrible toxic situations. And we hope that if your shit feels salvageable, that if you go do that, um, and then if it doesn't, just take the time and make a plan and take care of yourself and just do the little steps and, and see if you can feel the difference when you've, you know, carved out something that's yours and not because it's, you know, you didn't before cuz it was wasteful or selfish. It's not selfish. Your time is yours. It is yours. It is your resource to willingly distribute as you want. Um, and everything else is the patriarchy and toxic relationships and shitty partners and friends and family members who would feel entitled to that. It's yours, y'all. Um, Use it wisely. It's, it's a very precious, precious resource. And, um, you can do really magical things for yourself and your community and anybody else that deserves to have that light shining upon them. That light that is you. Marissa, thank you for doing this today. Thank you for sharing your story. I know it's, it can sometimes feel a little bit hand in the blendy to remember , those, those dark, dark times. Yeah, no, it's fine. I'm at a good point in my healing journey where it feels really good to talk about this because I just, my, my always my hope is that, um, other people are just gonna be able to stand up for themselves if they are in a situation like this. So thanks for having me, and thank you for talking about this. I, you know, I just love talking about this stuff with you, and I'm just so grateful that. That we connected and that, that you changed my life.. Aw, thank you. You changed my life, dude. You super changed my life. You, you came in at a time that, um, created a, like you showed, you showed what I wanted to do, like collaborations with people that. Are equally like, I don't really know, but like, let's do some shit. Um, cuz I love that you gave me the space to be like, I actually don't really know, but I know that there could be something else and not have the fear that I always have to have it together. Um, cause I feel like I was put in a position where people looked to me to be like, okay, now tell us the next thing to do. And I was like, I don't know, let's do something together. And you were the first taste of that. Like, that was like really, really clear. I mean like, this is fun cuz you, you did go out and do things and you tried and you tested and you pivoted. I failed a good amount of times, , but pick myself of the mod. But, but so do we. Like I failed a bunch of times, but I had to always be like, oh, okay. I can, I can only share that when it's packaged to be like, here's the pitfall. Um, but I got to like be in the messy with you. And it was, it was really nice and refreshing and I, um, I really honor that and it's, I'm grateful for you. Oh, I'm grateful for you. Oh, come on y um. Thank you everyone for listening. This is the end of season one and this has been so glorious cuz I wanted a podcast for so many years, so I'm so grateful that it's come to fruition. I'm grateful again for Marissa for making this happen and season one felt really fun to talk about rage and have that be the kickoff. Um, and the show, the stories that we shared and the research and ugh, it was just wonderful. Season two. We'll be back for January 10th, 2023. We're gonna keep it to our weekly release on Tuesdays and season two will be all about the body and we're very excited about that. And we have episode one coming at you with Virgi Tova, who is one of our favorite activists. I love her so, so much. Um, she's a really, really great human. And we did our first podcast recording there in front of a live studio audience, so that is very exciting too. So look, Look out on your favorite podcast app, uh, January 10th, 2023. In the meantime, while you wait, you can listen to the episodes you might have missed in season one and head over to your favorite podcast app and leave a review. And then write to Kelly info@babemia.com and let her know the name of your review. And we will have stickers shipped right to your door, uh, so that you can have your hot and brave swag plastered all over. Stick it on your laptop, your water bottle, the side of your car, wherever. Um, and we will also be doing a draw every month from our reviewers so that you can win some podcast swag. We've got really, really fun stuff. Mugs, t-shirt, sweatshirt, and the like. And so we will be doing that every month too. So thank you so much for listening. Thank you for supporting season one of the Hot and Brave Podcast, and we will see you January 10th for season two, Chao. Wanna keep hanging out with us? Find out@babemia.com or head over to your favorite social media platform with the handle at Babe mia, Inc. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave Podcast.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Bianca Sprague

Host