Join us in celebrating a new year and a new podcast season!
Season two is all about the body and in this first episode we are joined by author and activist Virgie Tovar. During this interview we take a deep dive into understanding the many overt and covert ways in which diet culture shows up into our lives and steals our pleasure and enjoyment of food, sexuality, relationships, and more. We will give you tools to reclaim your joy and join the political conversation around fat bodies and the damage of fatphobia in our society.
Links and resources:
www.bebomia.com
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube, Pinterest, LinkedIn or Twitter.
Join us in celebrating a new year and a new podcast season!
Season two is all about the body and in this first episode we are joined by author and activist Virgie Tovar. During this interview we take a deep dive into understanding the many overt and covert ways in which diet culture shows up into our lives and steals our pleasure and enjoyment of food, sexuality, relationships, and more. We will give you tools to reclaim your joy and join the political conversation around fat bodies and the damage of fatphobia in our society.
Links and resources:
www.bebomia.com
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube, Pinterest, LinkedIn or Twitter.
You are listening to the Hot and Brave Podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you'll hear brave stories, hot topics, and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the you need for your soul.
Bianca Sprague:Happy New Year everyone and welcome back to the Hot and Brave Podcast. I'm your host Bianca Sprague, and we are very excited to be back in the office. We took a couple weeks off everyone got to eat, sleep, and be merry, and we have a lot planned for our community over the next few months. We had a chance to catch up with my dear friend Virgie Tovar, back in December and we recorded this episode you're about to listen to and we did it a little bit differently. We did it in front of a live audience, which was really exciting to have our whole community listen in and comment and add their questions as we went through and talked all about our bodies and body liberation and celebration, and the conversation went in so many powerful directions. I absolutely covered my desk with post-its of quotes and thoughts and ideas that came from this conversation. It was really healing for me and our whole community to hear all the feedback that came back. As we get comfortable with our skin suits and we find joy in our bodies, we sometimes need support with this. So we've created an incredible program starting next week called "Stop Wishing Your Body Was Different, how to Feel At Home in Your Body". Uh, this workshop is four weeks long and we will have Virgie Tovar joining us for the workshop, which is really exciting. And this is so much more than just about weight. We spend so much of our time scanning our bodies and comparing and wishing it was different, and we wanna get comfortable with what we're working with so that we can go out and live and find joy and be active in our communities and make money and dance and sing and really do anything else but feel trapped within our own skin. You can find out about that and all the other happenings here at Bebo Mia, including that we have our early bird deal right now for our 3-in-1 doula training, which starts in March, so you can find out more about that. The price is incredible and we are running a campaign on Chuffed right now, so if you head over Chuffed you can search Bebo Mia and find out about our Saving Lives, Creating Jobs campaign with the Ember Blueprint and we are supporting families in need. So if you'd like to donate, please go check that out. We also have our book club coming up this month and for January we are talking all about women and money. So this month's book is called"We Should All Be Millionaires". We would love to see you there. It's free to come. Um, finally, our scholarship applications are open and you can find out more about those and everything else that we discussed on our website at bebomia.com. Without further ado, enjoy the following interview that we did with Virgie Tovar and the Bebo Babes. Welcome everyone to the Hot and Brave Podcast. I'm your host Bianca Sprague, and we are kicking. Season two, which will be all about the body. Our bodies are these beautiful vessels that get our essence around and we spend so much of our time battling them, and we're losing time for joy and for fun, and for pleasure, and for connection, and most importantly, for action. Uh, so we'll be looking at all of the areas of the body over the season, both inside and out, and we thought, who better than to start off the conversation about the body than our dear friend, Virgie Tovar. Um, and it feels like a very full circle moment for us because we kicked off book club for 2022 with Virgie, and now we're starting podcast 2023 with Virgie. It's really like, if you're gonna start something on the right foot, you need to get Virgie on over there. Um, and I'm joined by fellow Babel babes, Meg Kant and Michelle Cruz. Howdy y'all, we have a lot to talk about today because Virgie comes from a really amazing point as an activist, educator, writer, and all around fun and fabulous human. Um, We are gonna have a lot in the show notes about how to get a hold of Virgie, but I can't say enough about her two books. I'm holding them up For our live audience here that we have, "You have the Right to Remain Fat" as well as "The Body Positive Journal" and look out in your inbox because we have a really fun initiative that we're doing through January with the "Body Positive Journal". So hold onto your hats Virgie. Hi.
Virgie Tovar:Hi, how are you?
Bianca Sprague:Oh, we're just so happy you're here with us again.
Virgie Tovar:I'm so happy to be here
Bianca Sprague:We love everything you say. We love everything you say. So we got some feedback from our community and I thought this would be a great place to start, is that, um, some folks thought that we've, like, skipped some steps for them. So we've come in with like our body liberation messaging and, and they're like, Ooh, I don't understand. You know, you know, fat is this in medicine. We know that about this and we know there's foods that are bad for us and we know. And so we're like, okay, let's take it back. Um, so some, we would love if you could help define some things for our community. So for anyone that has not heard of diet culture, what is that and how does it impact?
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, I mean diet culture, it's a phrase that's used to describe talking about food in a way that is focused on weight loss or that's focused on using food as a way to control your body size. The inescapable nature of that, because of how promoted it is socially and how promoted it is in mass media through sometimes overt messaging, but sometimes also covert messaging. For example, only showing thin people as heroes or only showing slender people as desirable or interesting or intelligent or capable of, you know, certain types of professional like feats. So diet culture is kind of, the word culture really does describe when something is inescapable. Mm-hmm. Um, it's not like I opt into hearing about diet culture. It's not like I, I don't have to consent. It's just gonna be thrown at me no matter what I do. And a useful analogy to kind of think of is the way that white supremacy is kind of a culture. The way that like heteronormativity is a culture. It's like everywhere you look, you're getting signaling that this is what you should be doing, this is what you should look like. And I think with the backdrop of both, you know, the medical field really promoting restricting food, which is another way of saying dieting.
Meg Kant:Yep.
Virgie Tovar:Um, as a pathway to health, it can be really difficult to feel like you can navigate it with autonomy, um, because you've got the support of the medical field, so you've, it's kind of coming from the medical establishment, the academia and popular culture.
Meg Kant:Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really loved, um, I don't know if she was the first person to say it, but Christy Harrison on the Food Psych podcast when she references it's the water that we swim in. Diet culture is literally, it's, it's the air that we're breathing. It's truly, truly everywhere. And so it's impacting us. We're unlearning these things. We're still popping up with me. I'm like, oh shit. I never realized that one was there. And it's. Kind of always changing. How does it show up for folks in our daily lives? Like how does it show up for you, especially around the food that we choose to put in our mouths?
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, I mean, uh, I, I immediately think of the ways it shows up in the workplace. I've talked to a lot of clients who work in some kind of office environment, certainly like before the pandemic. Um, and just this sense that everyone's talking about diets, um, like what diet they're on, what kind of food restricting. I think it's useful also to unpack that as the weight loss industry has become sensitized and aware of body positivity and people wanting to adopt it as a value and a principle, they've begun changing the language of how they're selling their product and how they're discussing what dieting is. Dieting is when you are manipulating food or you are using food and you're judging the success of how you're using food, at least in part on weight loss.
Bianca Sprague:Mm-hmm.
Virgie Tovar:um, or that's your, one of your goals. So that's what a diet is basically. So no matter what anybody's calling it, if they're calling it a lifestyle change, they're calling it, you know, like, I mean, keto is a diet. There's a gaslighting effect to when an industry and a culture doesn't actually want to change, they just wanna change the language. You keep doing the same thing, but you think that you're doing something differently. And this is literally like gaslighting, right? Um,
Bianca Sprague:yeah
Virgie Tovar:so, uh, not just is there the talk about calories and being quote unquote good and, and talking about food in a moralizing way, like, cookies are evil, or I'm gonna be quote unquote good and have a salad. Um, And these kinds of things. Um, so you know that the kind of ubiquity of that, like we hear that conversation everywhere. Like you go to a bakery and somebody is out loud processing whether or not they think something's evil or they should restrict or they're having a cheat day.
Bianca Sprague:Oh, cheat day, you're bad today, you're being bad.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, totally. It's interesting, actually, a little bit of a sidebar. I was talking to, um, a baker who has been in the baking world, I believe longer than she's been like a body positive, fat, positive person. And she's like, she's like, I don't think people understand what it's like when your passion is being described as cheating when your passion and your vocation, your job and what you love is being processed as sinful behavior. Um, and it was really powerful to kind of like have it from that career perspective of like all the bakers out there who have to like be on the front lines while people are talking about their work at like akin to being unfaithful or something like that, to like, like if they were in a monogamous relationship and they stepped out, like, I think anyway. So imagine going one single day where you don't hear anything about that. Any, and I like, I can't imagine it. I mean, I, like, I work from home. I, you know, I go a few places during the week, like mostly the same places and I can't even imagine it. And my, and my environment is fairly controlled, I would say. I think there's that, I mean, certainly like the holidays are a big place where diet culture steps in, um, you know, because, uh, family members, people you don't see all year round might be commenting on your body. Right? And I think it's useful to understand the diet culture is both the idea that, have you lost weight is a compliment. That's diet culture. Likewise, somebody fat shaming you or commenting on your body changing or becoming bigger or changing shape in some way. That's also diet culture. And I think, I think what's, what's, what's useful to note is. You know, diet, culture and fat phobia kind of go hand in hand. Mm-hmm., um, the whole like, diet culture has the fuel that it has because of the idea that being fat is the worst thing that you could possibly be. Yeah. Like diet culture wouldn't have the ammunition, it wouldn't have the industry, it wouldn't have like, right. Like all of this stuff that's going on without fat phobia. And the last example that I'll share, cause I mean I think it really is everywhere, is, um, you know, in, in, actually in in marketing and stuff like that, it's really evident. So for example, you'll see ice cream that is meant to be low calorie or low fat. It will often have angelic imagery, like there'll be an angel halo or something like that over the top of, of like the word the branding LaCroix, which is a very popular bubbly water brand. Um, I think on the, on the every single package it says always innocent or innocent or something like that. Um, it's on every single cardboard package of LaCroix. Um, and uh, and then you'll see kind of similarly, um, people who are leaning into the idea that they, that they're making indulgent food. They'll use devil imagery and sexual imagery as a way to, to reaffirm immorality and morality. So I think like, these are all really subtle ways that we might not even consciously notice, but they're all over the place.
Bianca Sprague:Woof to all of that. And it's funny, so if anyone wants to listen to the episode that Meg and I did, we talked a little bit about neoliberalism, which I know can feel like a scary term. Um, but this is exactly what Virgie's been talking about, is A: if it's not working, it's because you're not doing it right, is the message with food it's just like another place that shows up the same way. If you're not rich, it's, you're not, because you're not doing it, you're not working hard enough. If you're not doing, you know, these demonstrations of motherhood, then you're not, you know, it's all the places where we put the personal responsibility, like to the person because they, rather than challenging the tools or like what we're given or the messaging. Um, and then the, the other part, so that's the one part. So you can clock with this neoliberal conversation that we've been continuing on from season one. Um, and then the second one is all about the language. So, um, we are instead this insidious language just keeps evolving so that we think we're doing something really subversive or that we're doing something outside the mold or we're challenging these really, um, antiquated and oppressive systems and forces. But really we're playing right into their hand. And then we're saying these things like, this is actually for my health. This is has helped my sleep, and this is not the individual's fault. We're gonna keep repeating it, whether we're talking about parents or we're talking about somebody trying to get a, like a, a more solid relationship with their body. Um, that you can see like how hard it is because you think you're going in the right direction and really you've like played into the like, whoa haha right into their hand because you've used an entry point of sleep or you've used an entry point of like, your skin feels better or you've noticed you're just like, you just feel better. Um, but really it's the same, it's the same shit as we were fed before. Only it's like way more like, um, . It's less like the overt versus the covert, which I kind of respect before when people are like, lesbians are this, fat is this and this is that , you know? And then you're like, at least I know what I'm dealing with. Instead of this really like insidious, slimy all over. And then it's like really hard to see. It's really hard to see. Like I used the example with Meg when we were talking about um, Bridgerton and that everyone was like, oh, I loved it. It's really progressive. Like go, go, go Shonda. I only watched season one cause I was just too mad about everything about it. But I was like, the only character who has this beautiful, squishy fat body was like like unsex-able was like, had to be smart and clever because she wasn't this the beautiful, all these people fawning around her, like all this stuff. And I was. But, but we see it. We're told that this is a progressive show, therefore it's doing something different. I was like, they had one fat character and she had to be like clever to make up for the fact that she wasn't beautiful
Michelle Cruz:and she's not even fat.
Bianca Sprague:I know, but like that was the representation.
Michelle Cruz:Yeah.
Meg Kant:Yeah.
Michelle Cruz:It's insane.
Virgie Tovar:But I think like with representation, I think there is, it's useful to note, to think about, right? It's not just about is the body on the screen, it's, is this person being, or this character being portrayed with complexity? Yeah. I was doing a bunch of research on different representation of sort of groups that are often not shown. I was interested in looking at how age was portrayed and, and it turns out that like there's a pretty large amount of actual. People who are elders being shown, but often it's with complete lack of dignity. They're, they're the source of a ... their like a, you know, comic relief. It's like, yeah, the body is there. I mean, I don't wanna downplay that like for some people just having that body there really matters. But I think it's useful to understand that like, we get to demand than expect more than just a body who's being kind of, portrayed as abject, um, in front of us, you know, so representation. Um, it's useful to kind of, kind of make those differentiations.
Bianca Sprague:Yeah. Thank you for that. And we couldn't agree more. It's, it's, step one is having the equity seeking group seen up there, but using them as a tool to perpetuate the same messaging that is believed about, you know, racialized, young, old fat, you know, straight sized queer, all of these things we could, we could all ask for a little bit more. Um, so you made a point that we would love for you to talk about around thinking that we could have, say, food have that much of an impact on changing our body. So can we actually be changing our bodies? Because I know there's, people spend a significant amount of time committed to trying to change something that, you know, might not actually be changeable.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah. I mean the, the research is fairly clear that for the most part we don't really have control over the size of our body. The parameters of that statement are, we largely don't have control over our bodies. If we are doing things that are within a scope, that's not gonna start to eat away at our mental and physical health, so, right. For example, as someone who. Is, you know, basically had an eating disorder, I would totally, you know, I would like clap back on. That's not true. I did it. Meg Kant: Yeah, totally. Ok. Yeah. But you had a mental, like, it's like literally you, you were in mental anguish and you were physically incapable of like standing up for more than 30 minutes without being dizzy and exhausted. Right. So it's like, yeah, I think it's important to understand like in general, right. And I, this is where sort of some of the science is useful to talk about. So there's a field called, uh, weight science, which you can look up. Um, . And in the field of weight science, there's a concept known as set point. So Set point is something that, um, you know, basically is like, it's called set point theory. That's the whole name. Um, set point theory is, uh, an empirically driven theory. So like the other evidence, evidence suggests strongly that our set point, so the unique weight range within which our body uniquely operates at its best is genetically determined. I really wanted to emphasize the word range, right? Because when we are restricting food or we're dieting, we're typically just cycling between the top point and the bottom point of that range.
Meg Kant:Yep.
Virgie Tovar:So, I mean, and, and I think anybody who has dieted in the past kind of knows that there's, that you're largely working with about 20 pounds over and over and over again. Occasionally, right occasionally that the range is, occasionally that number is higher. Um, but you know, for the most part you're, you're just kind of like pinging between one side of the range to the other over and over again. Right? A lot of people make an argument against, uh, fat phobia being a form of discrimination because weight is mutable. Um, so I wanna say, right, like we all know that weight is mutable, right? Like weight changes over time. You can be someone who's thin your entire life. I just was talking to a client thin their entire life, then 48 became a fat person, um, or were, or you were a fat kid and then all of a sudden you went through puberty and you're a thin person or something randomly happens like a life event and you are extremely depressed and your weight changes, right? We all have seen this on a personal scale. We've seen it in our communities. So, but, but I think what, what, um, you know, the argument I think doesn't capture is that for the most part, right? Like we really can't control our body size over time. Um, so a, anybody who's gone on a diet knows that, uh, at the beginning, once you start restricting food, you likely are gonna see results. Um, and you're gonna see those results are gonna go on for a few months, even like a year maybe. But at some point what happens is that your body begins to notice that you are, there are lot, there are fewer calories available to it, and it will begin to go into survival mode, which is a really positive thing. It's really positive that your body is like threat, threat detected, threat detected, um, and it goes into overdrive to try and save you and keep you safe. Um, now of course in dieting world, this is considered failure. This is considered the moment, right? Like, and we all have hit that point of diminishing returns. Like all of a sudden now the behavior that we had done for the first three months doesn't work, right?, so now what do we have? We have to start restricting more food, more categories of food. We have to eat fewer calories. And this is how you get on the eating disorder treadmill, one out of every four quote unquote normal dieters. So people are just like dieting, you know, whatever, like once or twice in their life or whatever. One in four will become a person who has an eating disorder, and it's because of the ways in which the biology of, I'm trying to save you and keep you at your set point, because that is where you'll perform at your personal best. It might not be the culture's idea, it might not be your idea of your personal best, but your body is like, this is our personal best from birth. We've had this marker in our genetics and we've built our life as a body around this genetic set point. If you're gonna start to mess with that, I'm gonna like be pushing back against it to try and keep you at your best. Right? Um, and this way, right? I think the body, it's like exceedingly wise and interesting and like magical. And it's fascinating to me how in our culture, because the diet culture, that beautiful act of survival and, and resiliency is rendered as failure. Anybody who's dieted for a, for some period of time, um, knows essentially dieting is always progressive. You always have to get more extreme because the body is just doing more and more and more to get you to, to get you back into your set point. This is how you end up on the treadmill, on the way to having an eating disorder. Like I'm so, I mean, I was on the front lines of this went from someone who was restricting food. I was a child at this point, and then finding that at some point, whatever I was doing just wasn't. Given me the results that I wanted. So I knew I had to get a little more extreme and a little more extreme and a little more, and then all of a sudden I was basically an anorexic. And that was not detectable because I never became emaciated. And that's one of like the diagnostic, diagnostic criteria of anorexia for a doctor is like, is is this person white, female, young, and extremely thin? And if you're not those things, you're likely not gonna get a diagnosis as an anorexia. Even if you are, and this is something where like, we don't have data on this, but I, I suspect that there are many, many, many, many thousands of fat people with anorexia who don't know they have anorexia. No doctors ever going to diagnose them. Um, because the doctors are prescribing anorexia to fat patients, frankly, right?
Bianca Sprague:Yeah. Well, they fully are . They're like, stop eating and then we'll talk. Virgie Tovar: What's Doing the advocacy, um, around this is sort of like there's this good faith belief on people who are part of our culture, right? Like that there's no way that the medical field would be promoting something. There's no way that we as a culture would be believing something, but not only harmed individuals, but wasn't even substantiated by evidence. But the fact of the matter is that's where we're at. Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:And I, I kinda wanna share that, that actually leads me to the quote that I wanna share. This is from a paper that was written in 2020 and published, um, in" Social Issues and Policy Review", a journal, um, and it says, " health policies routinely emphasize weight loss as a target for health promotion". So basically, um, health policies determine the success of, um, policy right through weight loss. That's how they judge whether or not it succeeded. So continuing with the quote,"these policies rest upon the assumptions that one, higher body weight equals poorer health. Two, long-term weight loss is widely achievable. And three, that weight loss results in consistent improvements in physical health". So these are the three table legs of presumptions about like not only health policy, but also what our culture thinks. Then the quote continues."Our review of the literature suggests that these three assumptions underlying the current weight focused approach are not supported empirically". So they're saying that these presumptions are not based in evidence.
Bianca Sprague:Say that one more time for the people in the back.. . Michelle Cruz: One more time. Loud and clear.
Virgie Tovar:Yes. The currently focused approach, they're not, it's not supported empirically to me, like this conversation is a human rights issue first, the obsession with weight loss, the obsession with getting rid of fat people. What all of these things do is it creates anti humanitarian realities in many ways to begin with, right? Like obviously the targeting of higher weight people for medical discrimination, there's a wage gap between fat people and thin people. That's anywhere between like nine, like around 9,000 to $19,000 a year. Um, it's pretty sizable. Fashion discrimination, romantic discrimination, all of these things, right? So not only does that to fat people, but dieting and food restriction in general. Is the definition of dehumanizing. There's evidence that shows that when you restrict food, you restrict cognition, you restrict somebody's ability to make long-term decisions well, so it actually impacts the brain and puts you from your highest ability of cognition in your prefrontal cortex to more towards your limbic system, which is your survival system. So it literally dehumanizes you in the cognitive science. Through experiments they've shown, right, that like when people don't have enough food or they're th or they're hungry or they're restricting food, um, essentially they immediately go into short-term decision making because that's like their survival brain. So it's harder for them to make long-term decisions. And this impacts finances, romance like, and, and obviously food choices as well. Um, so it's useful to understand that like the dehumanization is happening not only on kind of like a culture wide scale around discrimination, bias and bigotry, but it's also happening in a cognitive science sense. And, and I kind of wanna end by saying like, right. What our culture is preoccupied with is that the, is that the medical field has found that thin people live longer, healthier lives. Like that's kind of like the, that's kind of the prevailing data point that has allowed all of this horrible, all of diet culture, all of medical discrimination is pegged on one data point. And my argument is, and not just my argument, I think anybody who's like really been in the weeds, and I've been doing this for over 10 years now, um, the argument is that if a person can't control their body size, which is what the science says, Then what difference does it make if a thin person lives a, like overall, longer, healthier life? And if we have discrimination on every level of society, which creates a stress response, and we know from research that stress response leads to long-term chronic illness, it leads to shortened life expectancy. It leads to like lower birth weight, right? Like if we know all of that, then what difference does this data point make? And we know, I mean, this is like a devastating thing to even say. And again, it's, it's like it's hard to accept this. We know that white people live longer, then BIPOC do period. Um, and it's like, and it's like, and and, and that we don't see policy trying to turn BIPOC into white people. There's no world in which that makes sense. We have to understand that, that the differences in life expectancy can be looked at through the lens of racism and the, and the ongoing stress of racism. Right. Um, and all of the implications of that. So I think it's, it's useful to understand that, like similar research around how weight discrimination affects life expectancy has been done, and weight discrimination has a extremely high correlation with lower life expectancy when they've controlled for common psychological and physical health factors.
Meg Kant:Hmm.
Bianca Sprague:Oh shit. That was good.
Michelle Cruz:I know.
Meg Kant:And also, I just wanna add in firstly that health is so objective. Like that my, my idea of health and yours and Michelle and Bianca, everyone's is gonna be different. What about the quality of life, right? Yeah. Like as somebody who lived in a thin body for. Maybe 10 years, but was like starving myself.
Bianca Sprague:It's joyless. And that's why in the intro, I use the word action, which I love. Um, how Virgie said it around like, if you restrict food, you're, you're restrict cognition. But like, if we are only making these, these short term decisions or no decision at all because we're just like, we're starving, um, then we're not voting and we're not protesting and we're not challenging and we're not leaving domestic violence situations because we're so fucking hungry and then we're tired and our body's not functioning optimally. Like it's a car that's out of gas. Um, and so, you know, no surprise that not only, it's like a double-edged sword, right? Or like a suck and blow that they get to do cuz they get to profit off of the, the diets with us. And then they get, they get these like malleable, weak, tired, you know, exhausted bodies that they just guide. They're like, you wanna buy that? That will make you beautiful. This will this. And they just keep. They just have us doing free labor and then controlling the free economy by just messaging in this short term decision making process. You'll, you want these glasses, you want that plant behind you. You want these shoes and this diet So you're just,
Michelle Cruz:and if you know, and if you don't, then you're not where you need to be doing. You're not what you're supposed to be doing. You're not falling in line, you're not, another, a little soldier doing, as you were told, because it comes back to like that messaging piece. Like we're all, you know, almost like a fog, like we're trying to get through life, pushing things out of our way and they're like, oh no, it's getting thick, thicker, it's getting deeper, you know, having conversations with everybody else. So like my thing too, Virgie. Like, we've had this taught, like we know we know this, you know, we're, we're not sitting here hungry even though it could be lunchtime, , but like, we're not sitting here hungry in the sense of eternal hunger, you know, . But then, and we can have this conversation, but what do we say to folks that, like our friends and family and like those that aren't a part of this path that they say when they say they're nasty to us, how do we react? How can we, you know, of course my, my viewpoint is like, just kick 'em to the boot. You know, just boot them. But if we're trying to be polite, um, what can we say when they say crappy things about our body and like our, try our desire to not be on a diet.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah. I mean I think there's, I think, you know, I love that you mentioned like just picking with the curve. Cause I'm a little bit like, I'm a little bit more like that. Like I think that
Michelle Cruz:Yeah, me too.
Virgie Tovar:I mean, I've got a lot of friends to choose from, so , I'm gonna have to step it up. Right, right. You know, so, um, yeah. I think what's amazing is there really is kind of this fantastic spectrum. A lot of people. Immediately think of this primarily as a political stance, which can maybe feel a little bit complicated. Like I'm bringing politics into a conversation that most people don't perceive as political. But I think it's useful to reframe it as a boundary.
Michelle Cruz:Yes.
Virgie Tovar:Um, you know, like this is part of my value system. This is not like me being complicated. This is a value for me. Like my work around food and body is in my value system. When we're advocating for our values, there's a lot of subtle and overt ways that we do that. Like think of any other value that you have, right? Like thinking about like, okay, one of my values, I know cause I did a value, sort like a nerd. You can actually like print
Michelle Cruz:No.
Virgie Tovar:If you look up, yeah, if you look up, um, personal value sort on Google, you can find a P D F and it has a million value. You cut it out and then you can do the sort on your own time. Of course, I did this, um, one of my top values is joy and pleasure. I mean, it's not as like most people like pleasure or joy, right? But like, the way that I advocate for that is both in subtle ways, like the decisions I make.
Meg Kant:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:Um, like, am I gonna do this or that, this or that? Like, on a daily basis. And when I'm thinking about things with friends, I'm advocating for the things that are the most joyful and pla like, I'm like, I will be the person who's like, I wanna go to a pumpkin patch and we're gonna like cut pumpkins up and we're gonna go have like this ice cream afterwards and I'm gonna like, blow your mind with this apple cider slushy.
Michelle Cruz:Ooh.
Virgie Tovar:And my friends are like, ok. Like, they're like, you know, and I'm like, and I'm working with friends who are like, yes. Right? When you think of it less as like a political standpoint and more as a boundary and a value, and you already have boundaries and values and how are you defending those things? And we all have authentic ways we do that, right? Like for me, I'm somebody who's similar to you, Michelle, like I am vetting people at the front end, um, uh, for like my val, you know, based on value compatibility.
Michelle Cruz:Yes.
Virgie Tovar:Based on like whether I like this person or there's intuition involved in that. Um, and also, I'm, I have a system when I have a new friend. I think this is a little bit different and complicated when you have a long-term friend, obviously, and I'll talk about that.
Michelle Cruz:Oh sure.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah. A short, like at the beginning, if we're new friends, you get three coupons, right? Like three coupons, and you get to make like kind of a mistake. You get to decide what that is. Like a mistake where you're like that, that feeling of like, I'm disappointed or I'm a little shook. Um, you get three Shooks , um, in the probationary period, which is six months after people who, like, I'm somebody who didn't, who grew up without any boundaries being modeled. This is really useful for people who are new to boundaries and kind of need help practicing and have a lot of guardrails. Some people can do this work intuitively. I couldn't for a long time. So rules are really great for people who are like learning how to do that stuff anyway. But like the three coupons, if I'm shook it three times in the first six months, like this is not gonna work out
Michelle Cruz:hitting the curve.
Virgie Tovar:Like, move on,
Michelle Cruz:Three strikes your out.
Virgie Tovar:Yes. Wish that person luck. Hope we reconnect in the future. Like we're not on the same page today kind of a thing.
Michelle Cruz:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:Um, but I think similarly, you know, like, I like one example, I have a long-term friend. We've been friends since our childhood. She's like one of my only childhood friends and I find a lot of value in our ability to drop into, like, remember that time in high school and blah, blah blah. Like there's a lot of value in that, but she is, Fully norm core, like, fully like to the point of like she, and like she does heteronormative dissatisfaction the exact way that heteronormative dissatisfaction is supposed to look like. Like, you know, she has the exact complaints that a heteronormative person is supposed to have so they can share it with other heteronormative people and create bonding and create this, you know, maintain the system of heteronormative normativity. It, it's like, it's so, I mean, again, as, as somebody who's like academically inclined and like a nerd, I'm just like, oh my God. You're literally going through like the, the actual hetero feminine complaint list right now with me through talking with friends who are like, are more aligned with my values. They're like, you know, here's what she's bringing to your. and you also need to stop inter you need to pull back cuz we were texting every day.
Michelle Cruz:Ooh.
Virgie Tovar:And it was starting to become like a little bit tr like triggering and weird for me, where I was like, I don't even know how to navigate this anymore. Um, and so my friends were able to step in and say, you need to scale back communication about 80%. So y'all could touch base like when, a moment where you guys, cuz she only wants to talk about like three things. So if you have a moment where it feels like that's happening for you, if you have a recipe moment and she's like the person, if you have a memory moment, then reach out to her. Like, and they were like, girl, she's setting boundaries with you. She's like, here's what I'm willing to talk about and all this other stuff that you care about. I'm not talking about it. And so like you have just as much right. To be like, this is all I'm talking about with you. Michelle Cruz: Yep. So from your, from the three things on the plate, I choose one. So I think like there's lots of different ways, like it can look like. For some people it's very authentic for them to communicate very directly. If this is what matters to me, I'm gonna check you. Every time you go outside the boundaries of what's, okay. There are people who are not as direct. Like, I mean, I feel like I'm kind of a mix of like sometimes I can really do direct communication, but a lot of times I can't. Like, and, and for me, that looks like setting boundaries through how much space and capacity am I giving you? I don't think there's some kind of A plus standard. to how to deal with it. I think it can look like if you're, if you're not getting anything out of this friendship, you're free to bow out. If you're getting like a little bit outta this friendship, you're free to scale back to only where that, where that, those two points where you guys connect, meet. Um, I often recommend if you have someone in your life who's triggering you constantly, I think it's useful to kind of say, like, start scaling back the communication by 50% every three months. So you start with like, you know, we talk eight hours a week, we're gonna talk four hours a week. I'm gonna note that for about three or four months. If I feel bet, if my life is better because of that scale back, I'm gonna scale it back another 50%. Um, so it's like, again, kind of some strategies that be deployed. Yeah.
Bianca Sprague:I love that. So like, what would it look like gie if you're at a dinner, I'm just like, curious what it's, what it's like for you. Like you're at a dinner and somebody's brought their new girlfriend and she starts with the like, it's my cheat day. Like I'd love to eat this much starch, but it's like, you know, a moment on the lips, like all that kind of stuff while you're in the buffet line, in the kitchen, filling up your fall harvest plate. Like, do you say things or are you just like, God speed little bird, I hope you enjoy your food. Or like, what, what happens for you?
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, I think like when I was newer to fat activism and I needed, right, like I had almost no distress tolerance. I think this is something I often talk about with the engaging with people who are gonna say triggering things. Um, like if you're a baby and you're new to this, or you're having a hard time in your life, Your distress tolerance is very low, and you need to defend yourself vigorously. I would say at the very beginning of my work around this, I was not, I was both angry and I was also on very little distress tolerance, so at that time it would've been like I would've either literally just left like left or said like, I'm not here for that, or this is what I do, or I would've done something probably even a little bit more provocative by like just putting like 14 things of mashed potatoes like this.
Bianca Sprague:That's my power move.
Michelle Cruz:I just grab like 10 rolls. Yeah, that's, I'm just, these are my favorite. I'm like, I'm the whole package.
Bianca Sprague:I'll need a second plate, please. I go through the buffet with two plates. Always. I'm like, how do you fit it all on one?
Michelle Cruz:Or you eat it and you're like, I'm not the person for that. Virgie Tovar: Yes, yes. I think at that time I also, my distress tolerance was lower because I was on the verge of going back into self-harm. Right.
Virgie Tovar:So I think it was useful to be like, I have to be over the top of my response here because like, I'm fighting for my life, I'm fighting for my mental health, I'm fighting for like, literally my physical health And now there's like zero risk of that bandwagon feeling like that. Like, oh, sh this person's saying that. And maybe I should be thinking, rethinking all of my life choices and maybe my political stance is actually wrong. And maybe, you know, like my doctor from childhood was right. And like all of those kinds of things. Right. And that's what I'm talking about where like, if you're in that dangerous space where the bandwagoning can happen, I think it's useful to be very clear and aggressive and kind of vigorous.
Michelle Cruz:Mm-hmm.
Virgie Tovar:um, at this. Or there's no risk of bandwagoning, right? Because I'm just like, um, I know the research inside and out. There's more of a response of like smiling and nodding, like, I'm not gonna throw the ball back. And I'm just in a head space of like, oh, you're real, you're triggered. People call dieting like a healthful behavior. I'm like, no. What happened is that you were reminded that if you change sizes, that you're gonna experience discrimination, which is literally punishment. So you're afraid of being punished, um, and you've been triggered back into the head space of whenever as a child you learn. What happens when you eat the food that you want is that you become someone who people abuse. I'm like, I don't know how else you could think of dieting as anything other than being triggered. Again, this is how the integration of boundaries work for me anyway. A lot of times it stops being about aggressively defending my territory to like, kind of being like, like that sense of like the blowback where you're like, whoa, I wanna like, create distance from this person because they're like in a space where they're spiraling and they don't know it, and like, I can't,
Bianca Sprague:like a drowning person
Michelle Cruz:Mm-hmm.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah. Like, I can't, I can't be around someone who like, doesn't know that they're spiraling, um, yeah. Doesn't have those tools, you know?
Bianca Sprague:Yeah.
Meg Kant:Yeah. I actually wanted to, to ask about, I really, really connected with you. What, what you said about like, fighting for your life and fighting, you know, for your mental health and I, and sometimes it feels like people are fighting to be worthy. Right. Like that's what I find so often is when you're in space with people that are like really adamant, you know, and I am, I was that person, so I know what it's like on the other side, but that they're adamant that this is actually how it is and you're like, I need you to see that I'm worthy. And when you say things like, fat is ugly or like, I can't believe I, I weigh whatever. What I'm hearing is like that. You don't think that I'm worthy of like existing or finding joy or anything like that. So do you have any tips on how to, I don't wanna say disconnect, but to, to make that not feel so heavy when you're just like fighting for, for, to prove that you're worthy to someone? Cuz sometimes I know for me, lots of times I just have to put it down and be like, I'm not gonna fight with you to show you that I'm worthy. But it still really fricking sucks.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, I mean, I just, I totally hear you, and I think in, in my mind, it's not, that's not my job to do. And, and this goes back to again, how fat phobia is not understood. Like not only is not under sort of what it is, but it's not understood as a legitimate sort of form of oppression. The, the problem with it, right, is that, um, this person is essentially being a bigot and they have no awareness, right? So I'm the only one who's holding the awareness that you're being a bigot right now.
Meg Kant:Mm-hmm.
Virgie Tovar:And if you're in a larger body, I'm primed or we're primed to sort of defend our humanity to sh to do the labor of like, I will do whatever I have to do to make you feel comfortable, to make you feel, to make myself feel heard, like whatever. Like all of these things. Any friend, any person who hears I'm hurt, I'm not down for that and is doubling down. You gotta immediately question. Who the fuck you're hanging out with. Like, I mean, that period, like when I hear someone is like, I am hurt. My thought isn't, I'm doubling down on my stance . Um, that is not my, that is not where I go. And so I think like it's important to understand that like an actual friend will hear. I'm hurt. I'm not comfortable. This isn't okay. And if they haven't picked up on any of the other signs that you're doing this , it's like you really do have to put that friend in the like audit pile. Need to audit this friendship. But I, I think it is very much the marginalized person's position to explain, Hey, I'm a person. I dunno if you notice, but I'm a human being. Well, this bigot gets to be like, I don't understand what you're saying. And I think it's useful to be like, I'm not playing this role. I don't care if you understand. Why I'm opting out of this exchange. I don't care if you, it's not my responsibility to teach you how to be the kind of friend that I need, but like, I'll give you an example of like a friendship. I ended on the spot a few years ago. I had just started dating my partner and um, I was really excited and I was telling this friend about it. Cause then she knew I had been single for a long time and really wanted to get into a relationship. And, um, I was, you know, just like in that like early relationship energy mode. Really, really excited telling her. Um, about him. And like the first thing that she wants to see is a picture of him, which I think is a little, again, like whatever, like you can make whatever you want of that. I'm a little bit question mark about that. Cause that's not how I operate.
Michelle Cruz:Mm-hmm.
Virgie Tovar:Um, but then once she saw him and made an assessment about like, our relative attractiveness, socially or whatever, she was like, does he take you out in public? Um, and so that was, and I was just, oh, and I was like, this friendship is over. Not only because, I mean, this is so incredibly...
Michelle Cruz:I had to catch my breath...
Virgie Tovar:...and sad. So I like,
Bianca Sprague:I'm not at the next part yet.
Virgie Tovar:So to continue the story. So I'm like, it's like, it's like the punch in the gut, right? Like you feel like. That like, I'm like in there, we're literally sitting in like the Natural History Museum Cafe or something, , and I'm just like, whoa. Like the, like the breath is knocked out of me. I'm really shocked by this kind of response. So anyway, like I, I decided that the friendship was over that instant because, and, and for lots of reasons, I, I discovered one of them the obvious things that you, you're reacting to, right? She's like so hurtful.
Michelle Cruz:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:There's no investment in my joy. What her exchange was telling me was, I need everything that you say to make me feel like the way that I see the world is the correct way to see the world.
Bianca Sprague:Mm-hmm.
Virgie Tovar:And the correct way to see the world is that people like you don't get to have relationships with people that I deem more attractive than you. And so it was all about her comfort because if he doesn't take me out in public, then her worldview is safe. She doesn't have to audit any of her behavior or her investments. But if you aren't good
Bianca Sprague:I'm just still prickling, like my scalp is tingling.
Michelle Cruz:Yeah.
Bianca Sprague:My arm. And I'm like, I have a wiggly feeling in my tummy. Like when you know, like you have to break up with somebody, but it's only from hearing that, that your friend looked you in the eye and said such a fucking heinous thing.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah.
Bianca Sprague:And like, good for you bitch, that you have a hot partner, you're hot. Get it girl.
Michelle Cruz:Right.
Virgie Tovar:That was the other thing Bianca, is like, the other thing that was really clear is I'm like, oh, you don't know how to see and you don't know how to see me. I will not abide. Being friends with a provincial minded person.
Michelle Cruz:bye bye
Bianca Sprague:bye-Bye
Michelle Cruz:bye. That make me wanna catch some, like you're gonna catch my hands. Like, yeah, you know what? Like that makes me like, I'm, I'm sorry, I don't care what museum we're in. I'm a deck and you've gone. I'm like, I'm gonna get a lifetime band because I'd knock somebody out in the cafe like that's bonkers.
Virgie Tovar:Yes.
Bianca Sprague:Yeah, no, that's, that's bonkers.
Virgie Tovar:I think this is, so, I was powerful to just know like, oh shit, I've done enough work from like how worthless I used to feel as a fat person.
Michelle Cruz:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:In the depths of fat phobia to now not only being able to hold it down for myself of like, this is not somebody I want because they like of their worldview, but like specifically I'm like, oh, the deficit isn't how you see the world. I've learned how to see the world differently, right? I've learned how to see the sparkle that our culture has told us that only certain people have. I've learned how to see that sparkle in lots of different kinds of people. And I'm sorry that you haven't done that work, but I don't even wanna be around you if you don't know how to see the world correctly. Going back to what you were saying, Bianca, I was like, um, like he's lucky to be on a date with me girl.
Michelle Cruz:Exactly.
Virgie Tovar:Am I taking him out in public? Really?? Michelle Cruz: Yes. I dunno. It's like, I think that that lack, cause all my other friends, that was their reaction. It was like joy for me, joy for happiness. Like I hope he knows that he is getting the whole package. I hope he knows how lucky he is. Like, and that's exactly how a friend should be reacting to you being in a new relationship, you know?
Bianca Sprague:Yeah, no, it said bonkers. And there's so much room for unlearning. Cause I know right now that we're using the lens of, of like, you know, our body size and weight, but there's so much around the bias that goes all the directions. So some people were saying here that their friends like them more when they were thinner and, and all of that, but there's like beauty standards that we uphold that are like not working for anybody. And so, um, you know, like I've just loved this like reclamation of what I think is beautiful for me and it's, you know, I love my body here. I love feeling my leg hairs like blow when I like run down the hall to the kitchen . And like, I feel like so beautiful about it. And there's things that, I mean, I spent so much of my life. You know, doing my hair and makeup and nails and all this stuff. And now that my beauty routine is like soap water and toothpaste and like that is it. I have so much more time and all these things. And then I love when people are like, oh, I love your giant clown suit you have on. That's super fun. And I hear that as like so much more meaningful than when people would be like, oh, you're so hot. And now that like, you're so hot thing actually makes me rage. Like, I'm like, that couldn't be a less interesting thing about me. Like there's so many more fun things. And for your friend to say that like is not only is it so fucked up because you're hot, um, and it's like what is like the hot depth? There's so much like you are gonna go to a pumpkin patch and make fun drinks and wear amazing clothes and laugh and has anyone's gone through virgie's old Instagram? You can be a creeper go deep. She has like summer pool parties, like how she survived covid and found joy, like there's fun shit happening. Um, and so. Fuck that guy and I think we can all start breaking down some serious, what we believed around beauty standards and body and, Ugh, that was so gross.
Virgie Tovar:I know. And then I have to say, the epilog, she doubled down and acted like I was overreacting. I was like, I can't explain this to you. Like, I'm like, I hope you become the person that you're destined to be, which is the better person version of you now. And I'll see you down the road hopefully in my a decade or two when you've like not come correct. I was like, I can't, standing by this statement and acting like I'm overreacting. Like, this is complete banana cookoo pants
Bianca Sprague:Yeah. No, for. For sure. And oh man. Anyway, that's, that's, that's insane. So I know that there's people that can do it in your face like a punch, like this used to be friend, but I suspect they're, I suspect lots of things about this, this human. Um, but there's also, you know, the places that might feel a little bit more subtle. Um, you know, like your mother-in-law who you, this does a really good job and does her best and like will still say things about diet culture or her keto or her cheat days and that might be a really hard, so I mean, as a survival tool, which we use for all of the things we talk about at Bebo Mia, we just need to keep remembering that this is not the individual's fault. This is a systemic issue and that's just people regurgitating when it's not in that gross, toxic, you know, fat is bad. I mean, fat people are bad, thin is healthy, that's a bad food. But when people are like just navigating through the space and they might be, you know, parroting some of the. The stuff that, um, Virgie talked about a little earlier in the episode. Um, I know that it's can be really helpful, like when I hear people talk about their parenting choices or that they have bad babies cuz it doesn't sleep through the night or that, you know, they're a bad mom because they sent their kid with like a weird lunch or they're not volunteering. Like I hold that and I closed my eyes and I put my hand in my heart and I was like, man, the world's not working for us. But like, I don't usually use that as my platform to, you know, fight for individual rights or gender inequity or any of those things.. So I think cuz there's a bunch of questions in the chat, um, about that, that there's just like, you'll know the spaces where you need to just send love and compassion out in the world and when you need to remove yourself from the space and when you need to delete them from your contact list and your Facebook profile and your mental library. Like this human in the Natural History Museum.
Meg Kant:Can I add just, um, a quick, what I have found to be really helpful, because I do bump up against this at certain places in my life, like where somebody like mentions that they've lost weight, for example. I find it's a really difficult one for me because I don't, I don't comment on anyone's body and I don't wanna make comments on the body. So what I've said is like, I hope that you feel joyful or like, I hope that you're, you feel happy. Or like words that have nothing to do with the body, but really bringing it back to the feeling. That I know that they want
Bianca Sprague:mm-hmm.
Meg Kant:...from the changing of their body. So, um, just because it took me so long to figure out what to say, I was like, I, I don't wanna say good job. I don't wanna say that's garbage or diet or horrible. I hope it's joyless. Um, so any of those things, um, or not joyless sorry.
Bianca Sprague:Tash used to always say when we see somebody with being celebrated for massive body transformations, we don't need to name all of their names to give them more airtime about their bodies. Cuz their bodies is nobody's business. But, you know, media likes to take a talk about it. Natasha would always be typing you out. Ugh. They'll be back, to whoever it was. And she was like, that's just the best coping tool for me is they'll be back every time. They're like, look it, she was a size 21 and now she's a size six. If she can do it, you can too.
Meg Kant:Oh, the joylessness
Michelle Cruz:Meanwhile, back on the back at the ranch.
Bianca Sprague:Yeah. You're real sad and hungry. So sad and hungry. Please go make beautiful music and not be stressing about your fucking body size.
Meg Kant:Can I ask, so one of the things that I find that is the most delightful of all the things that is, uh, Virgie is the way that you connect with your body and pleasure and sex. Like you are the person that made me believe that I could still be a sexy person and live in a fat body like it was you. And she, she has like this sparkle and magic of where you actually believe her. I'm like, I believe that she feels that way about herself and for people that might be starting on this journey, that might feel like an impossibility to get to. So was there anything for you that in particular was really helpful doing that?
Virgie Tovar:Whoa. That's such a great question. I mean, it's like, I immediately think of the very beginning, like sexual debut for me. I mean, literally I went from being told that no one would ever love me or touch me or date me like anything, right? Like I grew up really believing that I was like a monster because I was a fat person. And then, um, you know, and then experiencing sexual debut, just being like, wow, I can have sex and I can have sex with probably a lot of people . So I think like this that, I mean, just kind of like, I think the factual leap from like this is not accessible to you to like, There's a lot of options. um, you know, I think was like the, the very beginning for me, that was a big moment for me as a person and my relationship to systems. Like, I think I was like, oh, if they lied to me about this, what else have they lied about? Okay, I'm gonna dedicate my life to like, basically unfolding like every lie that the culture has told us. So I think like, I kind of wanted to share that. Like that's, you know, that sex that moment of sexual debut where I'm like able to access sex at all and I'm able to access sex with, from like a spectrum of people, both from every kind of body, like bodies that are socially reviled, bodies that are socially upheld, right? Like all over the place. Like one of my first experiences was like sexual experiences with like a personal trainer. Um, but I also, one of my first experiences also with a fat person. So like just all over the, for some people, right? Just knowing that not only is that my experience, that's many fat people's experience, um, There's a lot of data to point to for that. I think that in terms of kind of like growing, like I got to a point, like for a long time, even after I was able to have, uh, even after sexual debut and I understood that I could have sex with, you know, many different kinds of people, um, and many people, um, I, I still had this belief that people were still just tolerating my body. That like, sure, they were maybe having sex with me and like, sure, they might date me, but like if, if they could change my body or if I could look different, then that would be a lot better. And they're just sort of tolerating me. And then I started dating someone who worshiped my body. Um, and you know, was like, can I watch you take a shower? Can I watch you get undressed? Can I like touch every part of you? Is it okay to touch your stomach? Is it okay to touch? Like, I love like your double chin. I like, I love your arms. Like all the, like, you know, who just was like fully, like very sexually attracted me and very vociferous about it. And we dated for like four years, I would say. And then I was like, well, shit. And it just, it just became the new standard. I was like, well if there's one, then there's two. And if there's two, right, there's four.
Michelle Cruz:Girl, I know the feeling.
Virgie Tovar:...it's probably a thousand. And I was like,
Michelle Cruz:oh yeah
Virgie Tovar:...i, it's just like the numbers thing. I was like, okay. I'm like, alright, okay. That was really great. And I think it was a real mind boggling moment. And then I was like, this is just my new standard. Like I'm not fucking with anybody who like isn't celebrating my body and is, and I'm not accepting anybody who's like, shilling weight loss or trying to control how I eat. And, and I think it, it's one of those wild things where like boundaries really are magic. I don't know what it is, but it's like after that, I just, there was just no one even coming to me who wasn't bringing that energy. And that doesn't mean that they didn't have other toxic elements, but like those things where I was like, no more, I'm not putting up with this. I'm only taking this, like, those elements kept servicing. It didn't mean that the relationship was meant to be, or the date was gonna be more like three dates or, but like that energy was just coming at me over and over and over again. And once I made that decision, then I'm like, I'm not putting up with anything else. Like I was just, it was just coming for me. And I was like, okay, so, so there's dozens of people. Who are in that head space and like, I don't have to teach them how to do this. They're doing it. I, I have to say, right, this is one of those moments where I feel like the sex, the sexy stuff, I can't take full credit for it, right? Like, I set the boundaries. I did a, I did a lot of work around understanding the history of sexuality, how my body is portrayed, fat, phobia, sexual violence, all of these things. So I did a lot of work. But this is one of those things where I do feel like the community effort, which was like the people I'm dating were a big part of like, I throw the ball, you throw the ball back, and we do this enough that I'm like, this is just how the world is I kind of wanna share that like, I've been in multiple relationships since that one where I am told every day that I'm sexy and like desirable and that I look amazing. Can I watch you shower? And I love seeing you when you change your clothes, and I love seeing you first thing in the morning and, um, you know, all of these things. So I, I, I, I have to give a lot of credit to also the partners in my life who just so deeply affirm me. Like I just, I just remember like when I started dating, um, my current partner, I was just like, wow. I mean, I mean, I feel like every day I wake up and there's like a bucket full of compliments for me, and then the next day I wake up and the whole bucket is full again. I think it's useful to say, right. We, that is accessible to people of any size and I, and even if it doesn't feel believable, you can desire that. You can expect it, you can look for it. When I decided that this was the standard of how I wanted to be treated, that was like when things really kind of shifted individually, right? I think it looked like a lot of things, like looking at myself in the mirror, taking my clothes off, learning how to masturbate it like differently in a way where I'm like learning how, how to have sex differently. Like for example, you know, for a long time sex looks like. How can I not jiggle at all? Like how can I not ruin my body at all? So like lying...
Bianca Sprague:that's the best, the best part of big bodies.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah. I know, but I was like, I would be like laying like a corpse being like, I have to control what my fat body looks like. Um, otherwise, yeah. And so like, I mean, I think like letting go of the idea that this is what my body's supposed to do during sex and really kind of doggedly being like, what would it look like if I did everything and anything as weird as it might be with myself sexually though, my body and I think what's, what's really cool is the body kind of starts to speak in different ways when you let it, like, it'll be like, oh, had you considered this? I've like literally heard my body like literally my body has been like, did you think about humping that thing?, you make space for it. It's like that inner, that inner sexual pleasure thing, right? Like becomes, creates, you create more space for it. And I think la lastly, right? Like, and this is sort of, this is like the deve. This is something that I developed later in life, this realization that it's like,
Bianca Sprague:yes, yes, yes. That is so good. That's been my journey and it's so different. Sex, the performance versus sex, like what feels good and the sounds are weird and the positions are weird, and your body goes in weird shapes. And I'm not doing the same thing of policing, making sure if I'm on my side that it's not the roll. So it means your ass is tipped and your shoulders back. And now I'm just like, who cares? It's awesome.
Virgie Tovar:Yes, a hundred percent. So I think having pleasure, um, be the North Star is like a real winner. Um, and not being afraid of like where it takes you, you know?
Bianca Sprague:Yes. Ugh. I love that. I wanna just flag quickly because I think it's actually like a really great example of when you talked about your partners, it was like a feedback loop for healing. And I think that, Every single area that needs better, like more intentional assessment, healing, recovery, rebuilding, whatever word we need to use, um, it will require everybody participating. So like the anti-rape conversation has to have men, whether they're raping us or not, participating in that feedback loop and everybody showing up. Because historically what's happening is the oppressed party or the equity seeking group or the marginalized person is trying to figure out like this contortion to like make it as little, a little uncomfortable as possible. But like when you're with a partner who's like challenging, you know, the body narrative, um, they also need that thing. So like I know with my friends, I fucking love fat bodies. I have since I was a little kid, my grandma was the most beautiful body I could imagine. She was this like big, beautiful fat. She just carried herself and I thought it was really awesome. And so like it takes that loop from my friends being like, wait, are you sure? But like, do you think I'd be prettier with that? And then me being like, no, I love it. Like Meg, like, fuck, that dress is awesome. Why did you put an over thing on? I wanna see your arms. Like not, I mean, it sounds like I'm real creepy to my friends. Maybe I am. Sorry guys.
Meg Kant:No, I love it. She's the positive person I know.
Bianca Sprague:But like that's the loop. And it does take a little bit where I feel like I'm convincing, which sometimes I feel like it might, might bump against my fawning response cuz I'm like trying to prove, but that is the recovery and then being like, fuck it, Meg wear a half top. I never have to have that conversation with Michelle cuz she'd come out in a half top if she wanted to, but like...
Michelle Cruz:all the time baby!
Bianca Sprague:But like, you know, and like being down, like traveling with Meg to places where fat bodies are revered like in the Caribbean and Meg being like, this is the greatest place on earth. I'm like Cat nip down here. And I was like, yeah, actually I'm a beautiful fat body and like, highlighting it though, but like that's the loop. The same way your partners, whether they live in a fat body or not, there was that, like, that rediscovering and healing, which does require, I mean, both sides of it, whether it's both sides of a fence or both sides of just this, you know, equation or the cycle. Um, and so I think it's awesome because you couldn't do that work without the feedback loop from somebody else, re-nav, like navigating the system in a different way. It's impossible.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I, I'm also just thinking about like my earliest education and feminism and how, I think there was, I had a group of mostly women identified people, like around me kind of giving me, like, there were, you know, the first time someone told me I was beautiful, it was another feminist woman in college. But I love what you're saying about kind of like this community effort. And I think a lot of times, like as someone who has my, I have a history of straight dating. Sometimes it's really weird for me to like count my, like cis dude, um, partners is like part of my community. Understanding that your partner should be your ally too. You should be able to feel that ally-hood, I think. And it can, can look a lot of different unique ways when that person is like potentially your sexual partner. I do wanna share this little story that I think is really powerful around fat and sexuality. Um, is one year, there was this fat conference that I used to go to, I don't know if it still exists, um, but you know, at, at every year they would have. A free fat brothel basically. I mean there was no money exchanged. It wasn't technically a brothel, but like so , I think what was amazing is they saw the necessity of like this in a conference space because they saw access to sexual affirmation as like part of social justice, which I thought was really cool. So like basically people would volunteer to like offer whatever. They were like, I will do nipple play for like three hours on Friday, or I will do like daddy play, or I will do like hard impact like B D S M stuff. And it was like, you can do whatever you wanted. Every, everybody was fat. And so, and then there would be a binder of like, this is what they're doing and if you wanna sign up for this, then if you wanna do impact play with Nicole at three. She is available. Right? And it was, and so I was, I, I think that it was like such a cool thing to kind of like have that political context of like, right, like, you know, like sexuality is for many people it's part of being a full human being. Not for everyone obviously, but like, you know, um, and, and like, it, it can be part of your politic, it can be part of, you know, these kinds. And so it, it was just so amazing to kind of think of it, like almost take it out of the context of like, pleasure, which, which it was pleasurable, right? But like, Take it out of the context of pleasure and take it into the context of like just being a human being. Like, this is something like this play, like this sensation is about being in my body. This, this like experience is about like having an experience that I maybe wouldn't otherwise have or that I've really wanted to have and like didn't have access to. So kind of, I mean, like there, there are just been so many moments like that throughout my life where community in some way or another has made me think differently about like what sexy is and what sexuality, um, is, can be, you know.
Bianca Sprague:Well, and it opens up that that's for you. Like, and it's not taking the drags of, um, you know, being grateful so you get what you can because you live in a fat body. I wanted to circle back to something that we had talked about before around food trust, um, because I think, you know, a lot of this is we've, we've kind of like eliminated the conversation or the, the cycle with food. but I think we can reintegrate it because food is really, really important. Um, and so rather than having a battling relationship with it, um, like what, what we can do as a reclamation for food, cuz food, some people, it is a, it's a thing that's hard to engage with, um, due to their stories. And I remember like just watching Meg go through her, you know, not to talk about you in front of you, but I'm going to. Um, but just to like have her have these realizations around foods like that previously caused a lot of suffering of good and bad. And how does she reintegrate them when they were part of her punishment routine? Like when she was only allowed a piece of tomato and her boiled chicken. How do you bring tomatoes back into your life and find joy from them when they are attached to like a really like sad part or like a part that you might be like actively trying to heal from? Um, so I. The looking at food for a second as our kind of final thoughts. Um, you used the, the term food trust, um, and I would love if you could elaborate on food trust and, and just like that reclamation of food as a source of joy. Cuz y'all food is so fun, especially if you have access to it and you're not in a food drought or food poverty area. Um, you know, it's a, it's an area like sex and laughing and pleasure. Like, it's great we can get it back there.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, I mean I remember I had a one of those, um, earth shattering moments when a colleague of mine who was in the wellness coaching works with people who are recovering from eating disorders. Um, is that she said most women just aren't eating enough food, period. So my first recommendation to women is eat food.
Michelle Cruz:Yes
Virgie Tovar:...and I, and that was like such an important mic drop moment to be like, we can get into all of the nitty gritty about, there's so many sub conversations to be had about food and food justice and food availability and food, emotion and food. But just kind of like your North star as a woman is just eat food however you can get access to it. Eat food you like, eat more food. Um, and so I like, I think that when we, when we recalibrate the, the stakes of what we're talking about, we're just an epidemic of hungry women. Um, I think hungry people, I think I can expand it beyond women, but like specifically if we think of this from just a gendered perspective, we have got more than anything, more than like whether or not like the food, where you're getting your food, what the sourcing of the food, the ethics of the sourcing be. Like I, you know, obviously there's a lot of different, again, entry points of this conversation, but like that we have that the primary, in the hierarchy of all of this, we've got a hunger problem. We've got a, you're not eating enough food problem.
Bianca Sprague:Yes.
Virgie Tovar:When we kind of see like that as the north star, we can kind of like a little bit not get so caught up in the weeds. Right. I'm like, and, and I think for, for someone coming out of a history of eating disorder and anorexia in particular, I'm like, oh, like literally like. What, however you can get your hands on anything that you enjoy eating, just eat it. Um, and so I think like that, that's, that was like a really big part of my recovery was kind of like that, that, that, um, opening up of like, there's no more rules. Your only goal is to eat food. To, to speak specifically about kind of like the, the tomato instance where like food that was part of a restriction, self-harming practice and potentially wanting to reintegrate those foods. By the way, you don't have to ever reintegrate those foods if they always remain triggering. That's actually okay. So I kind of wanna give that permission, right? There's no rule that says that you have to reintegrate tomatoes or foods that were like triggering to you. Like, I'll give you a, it's, it's, I know we're talking about food, but I kind of wanna, the, the example I'm thinking of that I think is really powerful is actually around movement for me. So for years and years and years, like after I left diet culture, um, you know, even though I'd left and I had a very clear heart value, political commitment to fat activism and to rethinking how the culture constructs food and movement. Um, because right, like cuz diet is just food with an outcome, attached exercise is just movement with an outcome attached. Going back to neoliberalism, right? Like basically turning inherent human functions into productivity driven activities. So for me, I'd opened the door to my apartment to leave. I'd walk down like the stairs to go. I'd open the gate and the minute I felt the sun, the voice of diet culture would immediately snap on. It would be like, are you burning calories? Are you getting your heart rate up? How far are you gonna walk? You should probably walk further. You should probably walk faster. It was just like this, like I couldn't turn it off and it created a reality where, Physical movement was extremely triggering. Like even walking from my house to the train, which is like two blocks from my house, um, it was very triggering. And so it was like, trying to manage that voice was very, very difficult. And it took years, like, I would say probably, I mean, it must have been like six years, maybe more.
Bianca Sprague:Wow.
Virgie Tovar:Before, yeah, before that voice didn't come on when I walked out the door and it was like a really big landmark moment, right? I was like, whoa. Right. Like the voice didn't, just didn't turn on today. And it was like, it wasn't le I was doing all kinds of things right. I was doing like, it wasn't necessarily like, I wasn't just. Systematically deprogramming that voice. I was just doing all my shit where I was like, I'm going to eat what I want. I'm gonna eat how much I want. I'm gonna like, not move I'm gonna try not move for the purpose of weight loss. I'm not gonna diet. Right? Like I was just having realizations, having spiritual aha moments, healing, taking care of myself. And then one day I, I just didn't have that feeling and it opened up the entirety of like, what it felt like, oh my God, look, I could probably do a lot more now that I couldn't do a year into this or two years into this. And I think to, to bring that example back, like, I think there are moments and the body will know when it's ready and if it wants to do that work, you know? And so I think like, um, you know, I just kind of wanna, I wanna make a, a plea for trusting yourself and trusting your intuition. And because Right, the body is exceedingly wise, like what it's telling you, I don't want this, it, it's giving you information and that information, right? Is it it what, what it's doing? And this is, this is just like from observing my body, um, for many years and what, and how it messages and what the messaging leads to. What it's doing is it's saying that like, I need spaciousness to work through some of. The things that are attached to this thing. And if you wanna take up all of the space in trying to just get me to do it before I'm ready, you're not gonna give me the space to work through it the way that I need to. And the, and the, and the work, right? I think I love this. Like I have this magnet on my fridge is like, air is medicine, sleep is medicine. You know, I am, food is medicine. I am medicine. Right? Like medicine is happening in all different, this healing process is happening while you're just sleeping. It's happening when you feed yourself. It's happening when you're out and breathing air, right? Like medicine is like all around us all of the time. So the body is just like, when it says no, it's saying I'm, I'm working on my medicine and, and on my timeline. And I think when people...
Bianca Sprague:Ya, thats a good point.
Virgie Tovar:...Allow for the body trust of being. Maybe that's just off limits and I'm, and like, I think coping with the feeling of like, why do I feel like I have to push myself to do this? Like, that might be the more, more important inquiry in like a situation where you're like, this is a food that I don't wanna re-, that my body doesn't wanna reintegrate. Why do I feel like I have to do it? You know? But similar, I think like in, in situations, for example, where someone has, let's say a chronic illness where they do need to significantly. perhaps alter, like they have very incre, incredible aller, like really acute allergies or things like that where food restriction is part of their self-care plan. Um, I think that that's useful to discuss, right? Like there's an amazing anti-d diet diabetes group that's like an intuitive eating diabetes group. Like it's on Facebook. It's with an amazing, um, registered nutritionist who's anti- diet named Rebecca Scritchfield. Um, so if anybody's interested in that, that would be really, because they, they're still arguing like intuitive eating is something that you absolutely should be integrating into even diabetic care, which is like, obviously not the standard belief in like medical field. Um, but anyways, like I, I think there are moments like that really. Okay. This is something, and I think it's useful to sort of ... In that situation where you've got food that might be like, to begin with, I just don't think you should be eating food. That's like setting you off in some kind of a way
Bianca Sprague:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:To, to begin with. Right. Even if you have a, a re uh, uh, even if you have an illness where like your dietary intake is severely restricted in order for you to be okay, I think you could even within that still find things that are pleasurable or more pleasurable. So I really wanna advocate for like the body being really, really, really smart. Um, and that people who are, there are people who are advocating an intuitive eating anti- diet, still eat what you want from the basis of desire, even when you have chronic illness or something like a very severe allergy. So, I kind of wanna say that, but like, you know, right. For their, for I think that when, if you are having, if there is something that's really meaningful to you, but it's also really setting you off , but you're like, this is really meaningful to me for some reason I wanna do this work. I think what it requires is just a ton of space, a ton of space ahead of time doing self-care, slowing the process down while you're doing it. And then, um, taking a lot of times afterwards, the example I'm thinking immediately of is actually during the pandemic, at the start of the pandemic, um, I started to have eating disorder thoughts surfaced and I thought like, we're gone. Although they were dead in the ground, they resurfaced at the start of the pandemic because my body was like, I'm terrified. What's in, what's a tool that we do when we're scared? Oh, we restrict food. That's how we stay safe, right? Because like, because fat phobia was like a terrify is a terrifying thing. And it was really terrifying for me as a child. So I'm like, it's just resurrecting the toolkit. It's like what do we use? Right? Disassociation, food restriction, whatever we have to do to get through this. Um, and so what I found was that I was not, my body was like, if we don't eat, we will be safe. Right. That was what my body was saying. Yeah. And I was like, no, my brain knew better. So that was, this is an example I think of like when sometimes your body is like hanging in, like, I don't wanna do that. And, and you know that what you need to do is this thing, right? Um, so like, we can't not eat, because if you don't eat body, you're gonna get even more anxious. I know how this affects cognition and anxiety. So what I did was, I was like, body, I'm, I hear you. You're afraid. You're afraid. And that's okay. It's normal to be afraid. In this situation, I'm like, grownup Virgie though is gonna take care of you. So, This is what we're gonna do. We're gonna open up the fridge and like you're gonna pick whatever you wanna eat the most like, and so she really like, my body at that time was like, I really want this cheese. And there was like, I think there were like four cheeses, then there was like, maybe some grapes. And she was like, this is what I, this is what I'm desiring. These are the things. So, um, that was the most appetizing. She just didn't, she was like, I don't wanna eat anything. And I was like, we're gonna just pick whatever you want the most. So I sit down and every bite, my body was like, mm-hmm this is not safe. Not safe, not safe. And I was like, we're just gonna slow this down. It might take a long time to eat this plate, like, and it would normally take 10 minutes, but today it's gonna take four hours. Um, and I think like, you know, it was like that sense of like, I know that this, this instinct, like both of these things that are happening are about...
Bianca Sprague:Survival. Yeah, it was. They were...
Virgie Tovar:yeah. Survival.
Bianca Sprague:They just were conflicting because your brain went into autopilot cuz it was scared cuz the pandemic was fucking wild. And so then you were like, I'm gonna revert to the simplest thing that would've been a comfort tool before. But unfortunately restricting food is also barrier to life sustaining. You know, force and you knew you would now know the consequences of not eating, which are not actually that great. The same way when we're stressed, most people revert back to wanting to smoke or wanting to drink or wanting to gamble, or wanting to shop, or wanting to, you know, do what a behavior because everything else is too hard. So you need that one thing that's perceived as easy only cuz that tread was worn real nice and deep from your previous decades engaging with it and letting those neurons fire together. So the unlearning is really hard.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, I mean, and I, I, I think like, you know, it was, it was useful in that moment to kind of be like, well, I understand that you're trying to take care of yourself and protect yourself and you're in survival mode, but this is, this is what care actually looks like. Cause I know I know better, right? But I, I, I just kind of wanna take the, the moral and right in that moment, food was about preventing more anxiety, like making my cognition even more intense. Um, or, or reducing my cognition to the point where I'm like, in more survival mode. I, I, I, I kind of wanna back up and say like, I think that there's a lot of concerns, again, going back to like certain foods and integrating foods, like, well, if you're anti- diet, don't you also have to recognize that like, this food is good and this food is better, and this food is like, I, I think that we need, in my opinion, right, we need to take away the moral overlay. I would argue that in general, the, the stress response that happens when we're overprocessing how we're eating while we're eating where the food is coming from, right? I wouldn't say that that ultimately either neutralizes any potential health benefits from like, whatever food choices you might make, or it may actually eat away at some of them. If we think of our overall health as a pie chart. 70% of our overall health is, um, basically owned by social determinants, things we can't control. And then so 70% of that slice, you can't do anything about 70% of what that pie is. Then that remaining 30%, right? Like some pretty large percentage of that slice is genetics. And, and I would argue it's probably most to that slice. And then whatever is left over from the 30% or the genetics let's whatever we wanna call it, five to 20%. I don't know how much, whatever you feel comfortable calling it, because I don't have the research on that. Um, whatever's left over that slice that's remaining from that, let's call it 15%, some tiny sliver of that is, that is food. So I just kinda wanna contextualize like in our overall health, we as a culture have this belief that food is like the whole pie or it's 50% pie, or it's 70, it's actually probably closer to 2%, uh, maybe 5%. Like I think that'd be very generous. It doesn't mean it doesn't matter, but like our cultural obsession with food as a health indicator has a hundred percent to do with the neoliberalist belief that individuals are responsible for their own health.
Bianca Sprague:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:At the end of the day, the culture decides, I mean, 70% of your health is determined by policy. You know, period.
Bianca Sprague:Like and if we can look at it rather than like food and having the weight impact, cuz that's really what we're talking about is that if you eat this, your body will do this and instead look at it. The food is very powerful for how we feel. So I have a good foods, bad foods list, but it's not what everyone would think. Kale sits on my bad food list that I love it and my body hates me eating it. Raw red peppers also on my bad list. Same with peanuts and poppy seeds. And then you like, you then start engaging with like, it's not worth it to me to have abdominal pain or to like have wobbly belly or wobbly belly in the, like the organ. Like where you're like, Ooh, I can't, I can't leave far from my bathroom because I ate this food. And so then you're just really mindfully eating. And I know like, but like in a practical sense, so if I'm busy and I could grab the stale croissant, I'm like, that actually will be such a joyless. Shitty thing, and I didn't get to it yesterday and it means it's just not gonna be in my future because not like it's wasted calories, but in like, my body doesn't love when I eat it and it's not even good, like, it's like a stale, fucking dried piece of sponge. So I'm actually not gonna put it in my mouth. Um, and so that's like a, you just start noticing how, what is going in your mouth and then you actually will like always lean towards joy, whatever you're eating. And so, you know, , the grocery store cake will do the trick because you're letting yourself just go get the birthday cake from the grocery store. But it also might be like, I really want yogurt and granola. And that's where we have to stop having the moral judgment about what the food is. Because if it's not the thing your body wants, um, it's wasted. It's not doing the thing that it should do.
Virgie Tovar:Uh, a colleague of mine also brought up like something really important, which is like, you know, it's, I think there's like a, a peer, like a hierarchy, like, kind of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs of like a decision tree where it's like, I mean, for the, at the top of the pyramid, eat right then, like what do you have access to? What can you afford, what's available? And then I think like, right, like, and then if you're lucky, like what feels good? What feels pleasurable? I mean, I just think like it, it's okay if you're at any point on anywhere in that pyramid, you know? Yeah. And it's a, it feels to be like, we've worked so hard to avoid it, and I I'm, thank you for flagging that.
Bianca Sprague:There's an inherent privilege to the conversation and when you have those choices, like choose something that feels good regardless of what it is, and then when you start getting like that, you trust yourself. If you think you actually wanted a food that before you would've had a judgment about like say, let's pick chips and it's not what you want, you actually will put the bag down. I promise. This is from somebody who can't open a family size anything without consuming it all. And I had to just let myself be like, you'll eat exactly what you want. And then I always did. Um, and this is if you have those choices. Um, and so I think that that can be a really helpful tool. And I just wanted to share, um, Francesca had a script from Virgie's book, um, that was, was a tool that both her and her sister got to use. And the script is, I blank because I love my body, not because I hate it. And then you fill it in with food, whatever. And this came as a product of, um,"You Have the Right to Remain Fat". So just the gift that keeps on giving with Virgie's work. Um, and so that can, that might be a, a tool that, or a mantra that can feel good that you're, you know, you're eating because this, you're drinking your water because you love your body. You're walking because you love your body, not as a punishment because you quote like, Overdid it the night before. Okay. We had a couple questions that we wanted to ask from the community. What happens if that bigot that we were talking about, like the friend that you're like, bye girl, never talk to me again. What happens if that's in your head? How do you manage that? You are the one being like, you don't deserve that hot.
Virgie Tovar:A c t is short for acceptance and commitment therapy. Um, acceptance and commitment therapy looks like this, right? You accept that those thoughts are there, or those inclinations are there, but then you commit, in fact, to your values. I mean, I think of it like this, right? That, that bigot that's in your head, you can think of it as a phobia or you can think of it as anxiety, right? Like it, it's not like a separate thing. Like in the same way that a therapist would treat you for anxiety, that that internalized fat phobia is a form of anxiety. This is not like some separate siloed thing in the same way that you might ruminate on risk, ruminate on death, ruminate on exposure to germs, or, you know, it's the same thing. It's not a separate animal. So in this case, right, um, what we do is we accept that the bigots there, it's like, Hey, dude, you're in the room. You're a sofa. Of course you're here. Like, I've inherited you over like millennia of like body-based depression, and you're in my house. And right now, right now, you're too big for me to carry out by myself. Like you're like a very large, very old-timey sofa. Um, and so you're here and I, it's kind of annoying. I wish you weren't here, but you're here. Okay. I recognize and I see you there. Okay. But just because the sofa's there doesn't mean that I'm like adjusting my behavior. Even when my brain is telling me, don't do that thing. Like when, when the, when the inner bigot or the anxiety is like, don't wear that. Don't say that, Don't like, don't like always wear a sweater when you're wearing a tank top. Like, whatever you like. This is that, that thing is gonna tell me when I look in the mirror, veva, it's gonna say whatever it's gonna say. Okay? So the important thing is, is assigning it like a mundane quality, which I know is hard, right? It's there. I'm listening. You're here, you're I, you can't, you will not shut up. So I recognize that you're there, but my value is this, right? My value is body positivity. My value is fat activism. My value is that all bodies are good bodies. My value is that all food is good food and I act from my values. Even as that voice, which is anxiety, is telling me to do all kinds of stuff, right? If I believe that all arms are good arms, then I act from that belief. I don't act from the voice. If I believe that I can eat cake and that every person should be able to eat cake, then I eat cake even when the voice is like, Hey, hey, hey. Right? Um, you know, and so I think that that A C T is like such a cool thing, right? In that way. And what's amazing is like, to be honest with you, and, and this is what I love about A C T, is like, it's what's amazing about A C T is that you accept that the voice may never go away. It may never, it may like decrease in volume. It may get louder. But the cool thing is you've already decided like, this is the furniture in the room. I'm not changing my life because there's a sofa in my room. What I have found is that as you practice this more, that in fact the sofa gets smaller and in one day you actually can drag it out of the room. Um, or it can like go in a different corner. It's not like...
Bianca Sprague:Put a doily over it.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, totally. So I think like that's, that's like, I mean, I learned that tool in therapy and I love, I love telling people you don't have to wait until you've had some kinda like magical spiritual transformation that may never come. Right. We live in a culture of bigotry. Right. It's okay if that moment where you're like, I actually love myself and I fully integrated. Not the knowledge that like every human is worthy. Right? Like that moment may never come for any of us because of all of the barriers to that reality. But it doesn't have to stop you. Just because you have this fear doesn't mean it has to stop you, period.
Bianca Sprague:I love that. Meg, I think you had a question from community
Meg Kant:Hot. Damn. Sorry. That was so good. So something that I know that, uh, some people have asked, so if you've gained weight while you're in a relationship and your partner is like open and curious, um, but maybe they grew up in diet culture, like really immersed in that, is there a way to help move them up the scale to like that more body positive, more, you know...
Bianca Sprague:the reverence.
Meg Kant:Reverence. That's it. Thank you.
Virgie Tovar:I, I guess the first step I would say is sit down with yourself and journal for a little bit and write like, and, and the questions I would ask like, how does this make me feel? How much labor do I want to take on , how much labor can I realistically take on without like popping off eventually, like losing it Um, and then, um, what's a timeframe that I think is appropriate knowing what I know now, um, on like how much realistically, like I want this much progress by this time, and I would basically just share the answers to those questions. Um, I think like specifically if you like, even in this conversation, right, I think it's useful. Like, not everybody knows. Like if you're somebody who wants a lot of comp-, I love compliments and I expect them from my relationship. And, but I mean, I don't have any problem just saying like, I thrive best when I get compliments and I'm gonna compliment you. And all you have to do is be like, you too, actually, you can just mirror exactly what I say. Um, and so I, I think in the conversation, Lay out this map cuz they might not know, like you might think you're signaling and all this stuff, but they might not pick up on it. Um, but you know, like I think it's useful to be like, these are my values, this is what I'm learning, this is what I am expecting. Um, you know, this is where I'm feeling like a little bit left behind. Like, you're like, my needs are not being met. These are the ways in which I'd like those needs to be met. And I think also my first instinct when I heard this question was like, it is 1000% okay to expect them to do a certain amount of work. In my mind their, you know, again, this is a bit biased based on my relationship experience the appropriate response is no response. Like, you know, your body's your body, it's yours. Um, I don't own it. It's not an extension of me and it's not about my brand equity. Oh, your body. Um, so I think like there's kind of that, that, that response or like, you know, oh, like, like I'm glad you're like, it feels like you're having some kind of a transformation and it's like making you seem more happy and I'm like so pleased or whatever, if that's, if there's like an emotional side to this, commenting on the emotional uptick of this. Um, so I kind of want an expectation set there.. Like, it's like that's probably, you know, like about what I would consider the baseline appropriate response in a rel- in a loving relationship. But you know, if you are, and there, there are plenty of people who are like, I wanna do the work of changing the tone of our relationship. Maybe we were both dieting before and we were both on board and now I'm ready to move on and my partner's kind of like lagging a little bit. I think it's completely fine and appropriate to be like, all right, this is like an onboarding process. It's gonna take like a year. This is how much time I have. One year, two years, whatever. It's depending on your personal generosity in your capacity. Make that call...
Bianca Sprague:Ya,, that's what we did in my house. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, you have six months to stop this fat phobic shit and fill your Instagram with sexy, fat bodies so that I can let go of my shit, cuz I can't fully brace like what my, what beauty is to me if you're still celebrating. Ridiculous straight body standards and like thinness and celebrating young and like, like this virile Taylor Swift model. Taylor Swift, you're great, you do you Boo boo kitty. But I was like, I can't, I can't keep hearing about this as I'm trying to embrace aging and that my body's doubled in size and that, you know, I can't, you Hailey, get on board. Hailey, you're doing a great job. I love you. My beautiful wife. Virgie Tovar: Yes. Yes. It's like, I think there's like, I mean, how do we create space for like, these are my needs and boundaries. I'm already there and then like, here's my generosity because I've, we've built trust as a part, as a partnership. Yeah. Um, and I think there's some points in the middle where the point of diminishing returns is Right. And I think like that is where y'all like start from. I would say I would go into it as a negotiation. You have that negotiator mindset as you're going into it. It's like we, I'm, I'm arguing for this, like, what, what, what feels reasonable from your end? And here's the timeline in which I'm hoping, and this is the kind of, I would like you to read these three things and like, I wanna be able to discuss them with you because that's part of my value system now, you know.
Meg Kant:Do you have recommendations of what things people could read?
Virgie Tovar:I love Christy Harrison's book, "Anti-Diet".
Meg Kant:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:Um, I think you have the "You Have the Right to Remain Fat", you know, it's like a strongly worded manifesto. So like, you know, it's not, I know it's not everybody's favorite flavor, um, but if you like arou, like a rousing feminist, um, you know, manifesto, vibe, like, then that's fantastic. Um, I mean, I'm thinking of other like, oh my God, there's just so many books, like The Fat Studies Reader, like, um, Understanding weight stigma. Like they're, oh my God. Wait, wait, wait. Like I have like literally a list. Ooh, . Oh my God.
Michelle Cruz:We love lists around here.
Bianca Sprague:I also, well Virgie's pulling up the reading list cuz sometimes it might be hard to get people to read cuz not everybody loves to do it. So I think also being really intentional with what you're watching. Like I,
Michelle Cruz:oh yeah.
Bianca Sprague:...I started realizing, especially stuff out of Europe, they're doing like a way better job of like a character's, just a character and like, you know, challenging beauty standards and, and so there's been a few things recently that I was like, why does this feel so different? And I was like, oh, the main character was like, violated all North American beauty standards. And it just felt like, I was like, why do I just, why am I enjoying this more like, like you could just see like their bodies and like their body hair and scars and., you know, Chub was hanging out over their belt and their like, you know, like all these things and I was like, why does this feel so much better? And so you can just start having those kinds of shows. I think it's important to like just see things where, like we were talking about the beginning with representation, that people are just like existing as people and it's not about their race or ability or age or class or body size. You know, those are some of the things you just like choose the media and and images that make sense, which might mean you unfollow Maxim for a little while.
Meg Kant:Mm-hmm.
Virgie Tovar:Yeah. I love that. Yeah. I think there's lots of different ways besides books, um, podcasts, changing your feed, um, you know, discussing, like discussing podcast episodes or articles or things like that. Like the, the reading list I have is"Fat Activism, a Radical Social Movement" by Charlotte Cooper, who's like a UK activist, an older book, the Unapologetic Fat Girls Guide to Exercise is really fun about like weight neutrality and movement. There's a book by Leah Vernon called Unashamed Usings of a Fat Black Muslim, um, Fat Girls Hiking is the new book. That's really cute. The Fat Studies reader is more like academicy, but kind of covers like the basics of like, All of fat phobia. There's a great book called Diet Land by Sarai Walker. Um, a book called Gordo, um, which is a series of essays, I believe, uh, by Jaime Cortez, who's like a San Francisco local person. Um, who, who? San Francisco. Um, my book, You Have the Right to Remain Fat. And then I was also thinking of The Body is Not an Apology: the power of radical self-love. So like all of those are kind of like fun, like fundamental readings. Also, if you wanted to go that route.
Bianca Sprague:Oh, what a good list. That is such a good list.
Meg Kant:Thank you.
Bianca Sprague:I wanted to share Petra's thought because it's really fun to hear celebration things. Um, after listening to the live recording, uh, she said, I, I super needed this today since having my fourth baby. My body's so different and I felt disgusting with all my jiggles, but my husband always says I'm sexy, but I feel like he's lying. So this was a great reminder for me that I'm beautiful in any form. Thank you so much with a million exclamation marks. Um, so thank you for sharing those thoughts. And, um, there was some really awesome questions that came in and I, I think we got to almost all of them, and some of them prompted some future episodes. Um, so this will not be the last time you're gonna see Virgie in season two since we've volunteered her to be talking about, um, sex and some of the research around that, around sex pleasure and, um, some very harmful myths when there are not even myths, but the, some harmful practices that, um, blow back on folks living in bigger bodies. Um, did you have any final thoughts? What's happening for you? Are you writing a book? What, what else are you doing that we can keep engaging with you, Virgie?
Virgie Tovar:Yeah, so I just, um, yeah, I mean, I, it looks like I'm gonna be writing a, a new book. Um, it's actually gonna be about going no contact with my family, um, and the role that the body played in that decision and like what my body did after, um, le like leaving, I'm hoping I'll be able to integrate this component into it, but basically how anti- diet work. A lot like, and reconnecting to food and intuition helped me get a get away from my dysfunctional family. Um, and how it opened up pathways where it became like unbearable to be around them, um, through my reconnection to my body. Um, so, you know, like, anyway, so kind of like the, the, the mystery, like talking, I mean, I think what's interesting is like, it's very much about the body and the way that all my work has been, but like, it's different in the, in the sense. It's sort of talking about like the mysterious ways that the body can communicate sometimes that its desires and how, and the role of the body kind of in intergenerational trauma and bloodline healing and how leaving, even if you're a person of color or the daughter of immigrant and I'm both, um, how leaving can be a form of bloodline work.
Bianca Sprague:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:Um, even though, even though like we're told that that's not what we're supposed to do and how we're supposed to do it. So I'm really excited about, about that, that we're still in the proposal phase. Like I'm working with my agent on it, so we'll see. I don't know when it's gonna come out. It could be like 23, 24, 25. I'm, I'm not sure like what, when it's gonna come out, but I'm working on that and I'm writing a short story called I'm Dreaming of a Fat Christmas. And it's amazing. It takes, it's, it's based on me and my friend Taja and we're both fat. And we go on a road trip to Solvang, California, which is a Christmas town in the middle of California where everything's like Danish and looks like a gingerbread house. And then, um, and it's like basically based on the hallmark. Like it's a Hallmark movie, but not as problematic with the gender and race stuff.
Michelle Cruz:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:...and, um, yeah, but, but like, it's like a, it's like everything you want where you're like, I love the Hallmark world, but I can't stop screaming at my screen. Um, it's like, kind of like that, it's like the hall. It's like a Hallmark movie setting, but with like two fat BIPOC like, um, protagonists who like, you know, shenanigans ensue. There's a lot of pastries reference, just pornographic pastry referencing, like nonstop, like so many pastries, so much cuteness, so many sweaters, so many berets, so many eggnog fountains, so many gingerbread cookies. Um, and I, it's like, it's gonna be, um, published and then like, it's, it's a short story that's gonna be published on like, um, SubStack. But then I'm also making like either an audio play or just like the audiobook version of it with like music and stuff like that. So that's what I'm really excited...
Michelle Cruz:Maybe it will be the next Christmas movie.
Bianca Sprague:Yeah.
Virgie Tovar:I want be, I'm like, be Hallmark. The first plus size Hallmark movie.
Bianca Sprague:Yeah, for sure. I think that would be awesome. Cause I love Hallmark movies and Gray and I watch them. We scream and rewind and scream and yell and make a big fuss and it's real fun. Virgie hot. Damn. I love talking to you. I love your face. I love your energy. I love every beautiful things from the top of your head to the tip of your toes. Um, you're a gift to this planet and you're a gift to our community. And I'm so grateful that you share your joyful wisdom because we need more joy and you bring it.
Meg Kant:Thank you.
Michelle Cruz:Thank you for joining us.
Bianca Sprague:Thank you for Meg and Michelle for being here. And thank you to our amazing studio audience that sat through all of this and asked amazing questions, not sat through like it was a punishment. It was a fucking joy. It's a gift to be here. Um, and so thank you for doing, doing this as a test project for live recordings. This was awesome. We have all the show notes are gonna be the many ways you can engage with Virgie. She's incredible. Again, You Have the Right to Remain Fat as one of her books that I highly recommend, and you can join us as we go through the Body Positive Journal as a group through this January, because let's do something different from diet culture and instead fall in love with ourselves. We would love to hear from you. Don't forget to leave a review on your favorite podcast app. We send you out some fun stickers when you do so, please. Put those reviews down. We'd love to have your five stars and write to info@bebomia.com and let us know your name, address, and the name of your review, and Kelly will get your swag in the mail to you. Thank you for being amazing listeners. We cannot do our podcast without you and we appreciate you and we are very excited to see what 2023 has in store for us. Wanna keep hanging out with us? Find out at bebomia.com or head over to your favorite social media platform with the handle at Bebo mia, inc. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave Podcast.