S1E10 Asking for What You Need with Mara Glatzel

This week Bianca and Meg are joined by Mara Glatzel to talk about setting boundaries and asking for what you need in your relationships and your life.

• Join us for Book Club!
• Listen to Mara's Podcast: Needy

Run for Nov 17 and 25th

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:57

It's uncomfortable, but at a certain point, you just have to go back to sleep and you have to receive the fact that you have asked for what you need. You are getting what you asked for. And the biggest trick for me is the other person doesn't have to be overjoyed to give you what you've asked for in order for it to be okay for you to receive it.

UNKNOWN: 1:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 1:23

You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you will hear brave stories, hot topics, and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the balm you need for your soul.

SPEAKER_05: 1:40

Hello everyone and welcome to the Hot and Brave podcast. I am your host, Bianca Sprague, and I'm joined by fellow Babel Babe, Meg Kant. Hello! We have so much happening over here with the Babel Babes and our incredible community. First off, book club this week, and we are reviewing the incredible book called Everything Below the Waist, Why Healthcare Needs a Feminist Revolution, written by Jennifer Block. We have referenced this book so much in the podcast, and it is such an important read. And the best part? We have Jennifer coming in a couple weeks to close out season one of the podcast with an interview all about rage and the gaps in information for women in healthcare. We are really, really excited about this, so stay tuned. We also just opened our Etsy shop today. The team is hard at work filling the shop with amazing digital products to support you as a birth worker, change maker, or small business owner. So you can find out more about that with the link, which will be in our show notes or you can check it out on our links page which is really handy that Millie made for us and you can go find that at babomia.com forward slash links we also have our podcast stickers hot off the press and you want to get your hands on one of those leave us a review on your favorite podcast app and write to info at babomia.com with the name of your review and your mailing address and Kelly will ship one right to your door trust me they're really cool okay now let's jump into to the amazing chat we are bursting excited to be joined by Mara Glatzel who is an expert on so many heart-centered topics like you're kind of a go-to for anything that feels heavy or sad um so today we're gonna be picking her beautiful brain and talking about boundaries I know this can feel really overwhelming for folks and if you like have your finger over the stop button on your podcast app please like push through because we promise we'll be saying some other things about boundaries, because I know the boundaries topic in general can feel really overwhelming when your life feels a bit unmanageable. So we are going to give like actual tangible things that you can walk away with to feel a bit lighter going forward again like always if your heart feels heavy you know take a beat go take care of yourself and you can always come back and listen after because we are going to be keeping on that topic of rage which is everything to do with season one because so much of our anger and disappointment I don't know about you guys but like that suffering feeling comes essentially from the pain of boundary violations so let's talk about what we can do about it and I just want to flag that Megan been a super fan of Mara's for over eight years. We were just talking about it since 2014. She's been retweeting and posting about her. So we're really thrilled to have her come and share wisdom with all of us today and be a part of the Babel Babe community. And like always, if you have little people around, we recommend some headphones because sometimes we cuss. Because why the fuck not? All right. Let's jump in. Okay, Mara, we have an opening for this season that we love finding out but like what makes you rage

SPEAKER_01: 4:53

oh my god what what doesn't make me rage um

SPEAKER_02: 5:01

Yeah. What makes me really angry is having to tell my partner the same thing 100,000 times. And I tell them, I put it on the calendar, I put it in their Google calendar, I emailed to them, I texted them, and I tell them again about three times before it is just wild, hot, rage and you know it's this is not that they are just careless they legitimately have a hard time tracking and remembering things so I try to be compassionate but sometimes I'm like can you at least just remember to check the calendar yeah yeah yeah that's fair you know being the person who this is something I've been saying lately like I don't have a special know where everything is in the house of superpower or just like an extra compartment in my brain where I hold all of this information. I'm a muggle just like the rest of you. What?

SPEAKER_05: 6:05

That's not true. We don't have this super secret mom pouch of content and information and just inherent knowing. The unfortunate truth is that

SPEAKER_02: 6:16

I do have that superpower and this is the problem. Like, okay, my trauma brain does track where every tiny clip and thing is on the floor in the house but i'm working so hard to turn that part of my brain off that yeah yeah gosh like just learning to protect that and you're like just because i see it doesn't mean it's my job

SPEAKER_05: 6:37

to remember i know that's hard that's hard there's i had my nieces over this weekend and they're little and they found this on the note of like i clock everything all the time there they had this little like dress magnet doll thing from when gray was a baby that we keep like some toys for little kids come and there was a magnetic little shoe that I found and I've had it clocked in my brain to go put it back in the box downstairs sitting on the coffee table and it's like running through my list the same way I'm like pay the line of credit call Gray's doctor back again call about the bike chain repair put the shoe away in the bin downstairs like what the fuck is that like this this brilliance is being wasted on that loop the It's bonkers. So we kind of do have a superpower, but it doesn't mean it's available and up for grabs for everyone.

SPEAKER_02: 7:27

Exactly. Yeah. I like to think about how I'm utilizing my superpower for my own devices, which means it's not available for you. And just noticing places where I can reclaim some of that energy. You know, it's like, oh, okay. Well, if you have just been thinking a lot about this in particular, like if you are doing something, you being my partner or my children and, then being responsible for the full arc of the thing, which is like the planning and the, like, if you're going grocery shopping, I'm not making you a list, make your own list and figure it out and do the whole thing from top to bottom. Because even after I got good at delegating a lot of things, I realized that there were still parts of the, the operations that I was holding. And, you know, The other half of this is really learning to not be such a control freak because when you permit people in your life to do things and to support you, that means they're going to do it their own way. Because part of why I was holding on to that little thing is like, I want you to do it and I want you to do it how I want it done. And... my life is so much better now that I don't do that. Even though sometimes it means that, you know, my children get clothing that I wouldn't pick or shoes that I don't like, or, you know, whatever things are done in a manner that I would not have done them in or prefer them in. But also I was doing something else throughout the entire process. And that is really good too.

UNKNOWN: 9:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 9:07

yeah I think that's um I know Meg has been she's stopped the scaffolding in a lot of places and gained a lot of mental load and emotional time back but I also think the weight of like swallowing your kid being in a ridiculous outfit is only okay if the benefit is there's actually like an increase in pleasure from your primary relationship being your partner and I think it's harder for people like I know when I like now in a really healthy awesome relationship when Haley buys Gray something that I was like oh god that's You actually agreed to the XXXL sweatshirt when Grace should be in a medium, and now she's in this tent hoodie. Fine, because I like Haley, but I think if your kids aren't the way it is and the stuff's not put away properly and the food was missing some food groups or whatever the heck your thing is, it feels heavier when you're like, and I also have to look at your stupid face on your phone. while i'm doing bath time or like i walk by and you're watching your TV. A lot of the stuff I want to caveat, which we do on almost episodes that we are using a lot of the research and the experience of our community in a hetero context. I will be here to represent the gays in places that we are not absolved from some of these same issues in relationships as, as Lamara. So we will be framing that, but a lot of the research. And if you want to go back to the interview we did with Darcy Lockman two weeks ago, we actually cite a lot of that research which is the reality is there are more folks living in a hetero context and the equity issues around labor and just existing in a female body are obviously more prevalent and we have more understanding of it and more longitudinal studies so we're going to flag that so we've got we've got we've got the queers up here and we've got Meg holding it down for the heteros and we'll we'll have a nice well-rounded conversation so some of the stuff we do talk about will be like gendered moms and dads but when possible we always use remove gendered language and make no assumptions around that thank you for coming to my TED talk

SPEAKER_02: 11:18

well it's so important because if I had a dollar for every time somebody who typically straight would say to me you know how lucky you are to be in a queer relationship because you don't have any of these problems which is Hilarious and laughable and bullshit. And, you know, so, so many of these things still

SPEAKER_05: 11:44

just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, we're not immune to it. And there are some things that society has given us, like mothering instinct as a term, for example, which we unpack in the previous podcast, is not a thing. We're not born with a mothering instinct. In fact, parental brain changes due to exposure and repetitive tasks and feeling a commitment to care. And it is open for those modifications to any person of all genders. So So, you know, the issues that we do run into, though, do come with the inherent privilege that folks that identify as men do get to take up. But it happens all over the place. The imbalance happens all over the place, but we deal with some of the gender and sex inequities in other places. Yeah. Okay, so... I hear the repetitive action and the, you know, leeching of others on their mental load and their ability to, you know, just hold a lot and create systems that work. So, you know, What does it look like when this rage and resentment shows up in our everyday lives? Like, what are some of the things? To kick off the list, we have passive-aggressive behaviors.

SPEAKER_04: 13:09

Or the fantasies about leaving or running away or going on vacation. Or

SPEAKER_05: 13:15

getting hit by a car and maybe having an all-right hospital stay. Yeah. No, like for... for moms, the number of moms that are like, I just want a little bit sick, a little bit injured, but enough that I get out of the house.

SPEAKER_04: 13:27

It's from bad moms when she says, right? She's just like, I just want a little car accident, just two weeks, two weeks where somebody else has to take care of my kids. So what else does that look like, Mara? How else can resentment and rage show up in our everyday lives?

SPEAKER_02: 13:43

You know, I think that when it comes to how our needs present. Because so much of our rage is because I have a need and it is not being met. But we are so socialized to believe that other people are going to, if we're good enough, other people are going to just know what we need. So other people not knowing what we need means we haven't earned it yet. We're not good enough yet. So we need to now work harder in order to earn that approval or that validation from the people around us. And there's this fantasy of like, oh, if I do a good enough job, my partner, friend, boss, whomever will say, wow, look at you. You did a great job. Now rest or now take care of yourself or, you know, you've done enough. And so we kind of like get sucked into that and work harder and harder and harder all the while becoming burned out. becoming more rageful. I like to think about burnout kind of on a spectrum from zero to 10 and rage shows up for me somewhere at about seven. Yeah,

SPEAKER_05: 14:59

that's my sweet spot too.

SPEAKER_02: 15:01

Yeah, it's really interesting because the first time I really made the connection, I was in grad school, super like you know, not well rested, totally overwhelmed. And it was like seven o'clock in the morning. I was in a computer lab and trying to print out a paper that was due that morning. And in the hallway, there was somebody whose job it was to open every single locker, check to see if there was something in it. And shut the locker again. So now imagine in the background of this stress, there's a person who's going down an entire hallway of lockers, open, shut, open, shut, open, shut. And I had this moment where I just about blacked out with rage. And for a split second had this feeling of, I could just murder this person with my bare hands. And that was a warning sign for me, a pretty significant one. But a lot of times my rage is associated with being overstimulated and it's the noise my god my kids have lately been making animal noises a lot yeah and you know it's like the animal noise is in the background in the background in the background now it's kind of in the foreground now i am just wanting to like rip the walls down of the house with my bare hands and you know when i trace it back it's my core needs not being met. You know, I'm a little bit more tired than usual. I haven't had time to take care of myself in whatever way I might need in that moment. And the accumulation of those small things with those, those noises and the, the overstimulation is right before I'm about to snap.

SPEAKER_03: 16:47

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 16:47

So it's been a cool practice to kind of catch myself and, in those moments. And, um, you know, if there's somebody else here, my partner's here, um, ideal to kind of tap out. But over the course of this year, we, my partner and I were taking care of one of my partner's best friends who was terminally ill with cancer. So I was alone with my taking care of our friend. And then at the end, their friend moved into our house for the last two months. It's been a lot. So I didn't have the opportunity to tap out. And I had to learn a new trick there, which was how to give myself even just five minutes of sensory rest when I noticed that things were just building, building, building, building, building. And it is a lot to learn how to do that. It takes a lot of skills. And I think... you know, a working understanding of what does that build up look like for us? You know, somewhere in there is that passive aggressive must be nice or, you know, that kind of like those good grimacing or like, so glad you get to go out for a cup of coffee with your friend. Awesome. I'm under like load of pile of laundry. And when we start to see what all of that, like all of those little things are that stack up, then we can catch ourselves at earlier and earlier intervals because it's, It doesn't feel... I'm here for anger. Absolutely. And it doesn't feel good for me to get to a rage point. And what I've noticed is, especially in my primary relationship with my partner, that the reason I'm really angry when I'm raging is because there's usually 75,000 tiny asks that were ignored. That were like, I was asking... calmly, neutrally saying, hey, it would be great if you would, or if you don't mind, or maybe today's a good day or, and that my partner and I have this really entrenched pattern of They would kind of ignore me until I was screaming. And when I was screaming, it would feel like, oh, wow, this is something that's really important that I need to deal with right now. And then they would. And it set us up to be in this trajectory of, you know, Mara talks a lot. And then when she screams, I listen, which meant I had to scream to be listened to. And finally, it took me really making the decision that I don't want to. I do not want to be spending my time screaming. I do not want like I want out of this pattern that we have now co-created over. We've been together for 15 years and we have co-created this way of being. And, you know, in order to begin unraveling some of that, it's like I need to have a boundary with myself that what I'm asking for is important. And before I get to my breaking point. And now even earlier before I get to my breaking point and now even earlier, right? So that I'm working my way back to say, hey, I'm calm right now. I'm not, I want to, Pick a fight. I want to get passive-aggressive. I want to scream and tell my kids I'm going to throw all their toys away. I want to, you know, stomp on the house. Oh, the

SPEAKER_05: 20:14

number of times I've said that, my insane reactive consequences. You're never going to a sleepover ever again. Or you're never going to watch TV again, which I immediately regret. I know. Your phone is gone forever. And I'm like, oh, great. I'm sorry. I'm really mad. I don't know what else to do. Okay. Just give me the phone for right now and give me five minutes.

SPEAKER_02: 20:35

Yeah. When it's almost like I see like it's like a choose your own adventure. I'm like, there's like 10 pads in front of me and I don't want to go down any of them, which means I need you to listen to me right now when I'm just calmly speaking to you about this thing that actually really matters before I have to scream and shout about it.

SPEAKER_05: 20:55

Yes. Oh, I hate screaming. I actually love all those things you said. And I had the benefit. I mean, benefit. It's the silver lining of starting a new relationship in my older adult life. So like what you talked about was my existence for a very long time. And now I'm like, oh, I'm so clear that I actually get I don't get to the screaming place because we do like, I got the benefit of really like knowing what I want in my forties. So then being like, so here's some things I can get irrational about. And this is just like, doesn't make sense. And it's just a thing. And I would love your support on that. And fortunately we're both neurodiverse people. So we got to make our list being like, I know this might seem really weird and it irritated previous partners and this, and it's become like smooth sailing. I was like, what is this scream free life? I mean, I still have a teenager, which is really challenging, but it's nice. Well, can I tell you a secret? Yeah. Yes. I love to rage.

SPEAKER_02: 21:57

Yeah. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. I grew up in a house. My mom's Italian. We're Italian-Americans. People were screaming. Yeah. you would scream and you would fight and everyone would scream and then you would hug and then you tell each other that you loved each other. And then things would come to a, like that was the arc. Yeah. And I love the way that it feels in my body to just unload everything that I'm carrying in that moment. It's so cathartic. So it's tricky because it, Well, I will counter this by saying I'm in a partnership with somebody who does not yell, who comes from a family of people who do not yell. So yelling for them is very alarming and overwhelming. And I'm like, we're just hanging out. We're just shouting about things that happen to us. That's what I do. And they're like, I am like... flooded. I am out of the building. I am not present, you know? So I, I am not, I am not getting what I want now because we are not in this fight together. But also it really made me realize that there are so many things that feel really good that aren't good for me. And this was one of them because, you know, when I would think about in terms of like chronic stress and having these different rituals that relieve stress. It's like, I'm holding this, I imagine sort of as a cup. I'm like, I'm holding this very full cup of feelings. And the way that I was accustomed to getting some space and dumping that cup was, you know, having these big fights where I was just like pouring it all out. And now I've had to be really intentional about how I am making the choice to pour that cup out on an off-decoring basis so that, you know, I don't need that huge cathartic fight to just kind of unburden myself of everything that I've been carrying. So, there's two things that really work for me. And one is really like sweaty, heavy lifting, working out. And the second is scream singing in my car when I'm by myself. And I have like a playlist of songs and it's the same feeling. It's like using your voice to, But it feels so much better because I'm not yelling at somebody that I love. And I get to just scream to these songs as I'm driving down the highway. But again, thinking about that piece of really being gentle with yourself like if it feels good to rage if it feels good to get to that point if there's a cathartic release on the other side of it for you first of all there's nothing wrong with you that's often a behavioral pattern that we inherit

SPEAKER_01: 25:09

and

SPEAKER_02: 25:10

thinking about how to give yourself that same stress release in a way that works better for the life than the way, you know, I want to be relatively emotionally regulated when I talk to the people that are in my house. You know, I don't want to be a scary mom who's like going to flip on a switch and rage, you know, and, and, I had a lot of postpartum depression and anxiety. So they already had plenty of experiences with me with very turbulent emotions. So, you know, but but that has to go somewhere. And I think this is where we get it wrong. People are like, oh, well, you know, now I'm going to be peaceful and gentle. You know, I'm going to become somehow a different person and I'm not a different person. I'm just giving myself a different outlet to scream and shout so that I can have my needs met and I can pour out my cup and it doesn't have to be. you know, when I step on the cathedral of the Polly Pocket house and it.

SPEAKER_05: 26:08

Oh, hot damn in the heart of your foot. Lego, like all of those. Two follow up things. One, it's fun when you don't scream at your people. I've discovered I also need to scream. So like Meg and I or any of my friends or with Haley, who's my wife, we can like yell about like can another thing about something with the patriarchy so that's really helpful so we can like yell to each other but not at each other and I also get the outlet of yelling in classes and teaching and like getting on my preacher my preacher rant so that's really helpful and then it's not at them and more importantly what are some of your favorite scream on the highway songs

SPEAKER_04: 26:55

oh my gosh I have a new one that I just started listening to Lizzo her new album there's a song called i love you bitch and like the way that she sang it she's like i love you bitch and it's so good and it's so simple and it's an excellent scream and rage in your car song even though you have to check it out i love lizza

SPEAKER_02: 27:19

yeah i um i'm a big fan of like songs songs that really take you on a vocal journey like um a nice range yeah like what's up for non-blondes or um heart crazy oh that's really like um yeah even Adele I like to you know really have my voice going up and it's going down it's going out it's coming in you know really just very gymnastic vocal chords nice

SPEAKER_05: 27:54

Can you sing, Mara? Like, are you a good singer? Is it terrible? You don't have to sing. I'm a good singer. Of course you are. I'm a terrible singer and I love scream singing and I'll put it on. And the new thing that both my wife and her daughter say are like, do you have to be doing that with it? Or like something like that? Or like, what do you think it would sound like if you didn't sing with it? I was like, it's Courtney Love and I am going to be singing real loud with it.

SPEAKER_02: 28:24

Yeah. Well, and you know, I think this is, I have, my kids are three and six and this is something that we do together after school, you know, during that time where I was alone with my kids a lot and things were stressful and all over the place, we would listen to the, um, the sing to soundtrack and really just jam together. And, you know, or my, my Oldest kid loves pink so much. Have like a pink dance party, but as a regulation tool for them as well, because so often, you know, they have, both my kids are Gemini's and they're manifesting generators and they are like, need to do a lot of things all at one time. And that can be just such a great way to help them get some energy out too. And it's a nice connective activity. And I can use it and say, I'm feeling like my cup's getting pretty full and I'm, you know, feeling pretty some kind of way. And I'm going to just, this is what we're going to do instead of what the inevitability of this is going to be. Instead of

SPEAKER_05: 29:34

screaming at you. Yeah, we're

SPEAKER_02: 29:36

going to scream with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 29:41

I wanted to bring something back because I think when you talked about the overstimulation I think so many parents mothers in particular are like I don't know how I got here like I didn't do anything my I'm doing like bunny ear air quotes right now I didn't do anything today that was so stressful but the overstimulation from the beginning of your day to the end of your day like that's not little like constant noise constant needs having to give people snacks needing to make meals like changing the diaper All of these things like this stimulus builds up over the day. So like, you know, that five o'clock peak where everything needs to get done and maybe your partner is not home yet and you thought they would be. And there's all of these things is that I just want to validate that it's not nothing. These are really, really intensive things. And that overstimulation is very, very real. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 30:38

And it never stops. Like, again, I was babysitting my nieces for the long weekend and they're three and five and they're really lovely. Like of all the kids, you know, they're very different than Gray, who was like a quiet sit by me. We could do a puzzle all day long kid. So like single parenting her was pretty groovy. But there was times where I was like, oh, my God, it's just like not it doesn't stop. It started with six thirty fingers in my mouth in my bedroom, which I was like, oh, that's not a thing I remember. And then it just was like, I'm hungry. I need to go potty. I want to go to the park. Why is the toast taking too long? I don't like that color, Barry. Why is her cup blue and mine's pink? And I was like, oh my God. And Haley looked at me. She's like, when do moms do like... Like things that they want to do because she hadn't like got to read or go for her walk or any of that. I was like, they don't. In so many families, they don't. And this is their sun up to sun down. And I was like, and we got it easy because we don't have a whole bunch of kids toys. They have one bin. So like once it's spilled, it's spilled and it's not like and then another bin and another bin and they don't know where... they don't have changes of clothes here where they can just go access and get dressed and change and like you know they don't know where things are in our house so they actually don't make the mess that they would and the comfortability of their own home and I was like Haley was like this is bonkers she's only parented a teenager and um and I was like yeah it's uh this is this is what we're talking about and then your husband in a lot of the cases comes home and you're it's like it's not even a help it's like another dependent in your house for so many women yeah it was rough I forgot about it. And it was like hard. I've never had to, I was like, this is, this is, this shit's no joke.

SPEAKER_02: 32:20

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I spent a lot of time by myself with my kids over the school year last year, but then, um, in August kind of unexpectedly, uh, in one hour, I ended up needing to spend three weeks with them by myself during August. And, um, What was shocking about it was how long a day is

SPEAKER_03: 32:46

when

SPEAKER_02: 32:47

the kids are not in school at all. Even before it's like, okay, it's a weekend. So it's a weekend day. So it's long. But I mean, three weeks of just that. nonstop. And I have a six-year-old who talks from the minute she wakes up till the minute she goes to bed and a three-year-old who is doing so much better now, but is the kind of kid where if you don't understand her immediately and yesterday, she like punches you in the face. That's just, she's just, her impulse control is non-existent and she just, you know, is really sensitive to being misunderstood. Aren't we all? But yeah, it's like just how much energy it takes to slow down enough to be there. And yeah, you know, I think that I hear from a lot of parents and, you know, women in particular, that piece too, of like they're the part, I'm resentful about the part of me that I have to shut off in order to be wholly there for those moments, which is definitely something that I experienced because I really love my business. I love my career. I just wrote this book that's about to come out. I have a podcast. And in general, I'm creating things that I just fucking adore all of the time. And not to be able to do that is so... challenging, but even more than that, it's like not even having, it's like I'm washing my dishes, but I don't even have a private moment to think about what I might be creating in my mind while I'm washing those dishes because I'm multitasking, washing the dishes with getting you a cheese stick and talking to you about, you know, everything under the sun. And so I think that that's the piece too. It's To even be able to have, I have a pretty rich inner life. So not to have access to that rich inner life enrages me.

SPEAKER_05: 34:58

Yeah. Yeah. That's very fair. Yeah. it's it's no joke like it's bonkers it's bonkers the level of work it is and it's like so hard to identify it as work but it's it's you know muting a huge part of who you're like what your existence is and I think that's the unnameable part when people are like they're like well I don't really miss that I don't go to dance class anymore like whatever it is after being a parent like well you know I'm just not as excited about doing my writing or painting or woodworking or whatever the many facets that made us who we were before children but it's like those spaces that you lose um and it's it's a major loss and it's really hard to name to be like i actually can't like daydream um which i didn't notice until gray got a bit older that i was like oh fuck i missed that like that was probably a really big source of my chronic just like hum of depression because you like don't even get to have a relationship with you because you're sustaining life all over the place and like you know not really praised or acknowledged and a lot of it we you know because we do talk about the work of motherhood versus the relationship of motherhood and it impedes that relationship part because the work of motherhood is garbage busy work that's like not respected it's not honored it's not cherished and it's not actually recognized even by society It's just part of that$3.8 trillion of free labor a year that keeps our economy going. And then the relationship of motherhood is really hard to engage with because we don't even have a relationship with ourselves. We're just doing cheese sticks and dishes and registering for dance class and remembering to RSVP to birthday parties. Oh, man, guys.

SPEAKER_04: 36:44

I really liked the idea of reprieve. has like somehow I forget it was an Instagram page we'll put it in the show notes I really loved this page but this person was talking about how we've framed like alone time and reprieve as this like thing that only like quote unquote like special or certain people need like if you're empathetic or if you're introverted like these are like then then you need alone time and they're like let's stop all of that because alone time is just an essential human need it doesn't matter if you're extra Yeah. And that we're able to kind of bring it back and be like, this isn't something for a special piece of the population, that this should be something for everyone. And so for parents that are like, I actually don't know what I would do with my alone time. I'm really not clear. Maybe I personally, I know Bianca too, we love to read. So I'm like, if I have some alone time, that's definitely what I'm going to do. But for people that don't do that, they're like, I just want to be alone. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, that really makes sense that you want to be by yourself. Because this... we're caring a lot

SPEAKER_05: 38:04

well even just the possibility to be by yourself like when you're just stripped of it like you know not even closing the bathroom door Michelle yesterday we were laughing and she was like the kids with all three of them were like outside and they're like we'll just wait here and she was like I was just trying to have some alone time on the toilet and they were talking through the door and I said I need alone time and they all just were like we'll just wait here for you and she was like no and they're like we need your phone back you have your phone could you pass your phone out She was like, this is bonkers that, that I can't even go to the bathroom and not have children talking to me through the door.

SPEAKER_02: 38:42

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that the piece about, I would really love to talk about the piece of, you know, what do we do when we get that minute of alone time? Because so often it feels as though we don't know what to do. So we're going to squander it. So we shouldn't have even asked for it to begin with. So next time. Because I, you know, until I quote unquote figure out what I'm going to do with my alone time, I shouldn't even ask for it because it's a waste of, you know, familial resources. And the idea that because something is uncomfortable, you're doing something wrong or you should, you know, go back to the beginning and take a class or find a guru or, you know, let's do a podcast. Please listen to this podcast. But versus, you know, letting yourself be uncomfortable in that space. And it only makes sense. You know, this is why parents the world over are looking at pictures of their kids on their phones after their kids go to sleep, that there is this weird vacuum that happens. I'm having this experience professionally right now because I just closed this really big week-long thing that I did that was really awesome. And I launched a retreat to Italy that I'm really excited about. That was a huge lift. And so then that all happened kind of through Monday of this week. And then on Tuesday, I woke up and just felt sad. And empty and uncomfortable with how sad and empty I felt and everything in me wanted to put a bunch more things onto my calendar, write myself a hefty to-do list, find myself a project to avoid that discomfort that... is a necessary component of quieting down with yourself when you've been really busy and you've been overscheduled and you've been overstimulated. And so if instead we can expect to feel uncomfortable and not make that mean that we're not doing a good job or that we are squandering our responsibilities, because that's a necessary part. And I don't think, you know, we get better tools for it, but we don't necessarily get over it. You know, even last night I was reminded when the first time I really asked for what I needed, uh, direct to my partner, my child was maybe three months old and I knew that I was really struggling with some postpartum mood stuff. I knew that. I was doing all of the night wakings and all of the feedings and everything. And I knew that I was getting really burnt out. So I knew I had to do something and ask for something. And so in the middle of the night, when Delfina woke up, she had already been fed. There was nothing I could do or that it had to be me. So I asked my partner to get up with her instead, which... I will say Cookie was very happy to do, but it was the first time that I really asked and it felt so uncomfortable. I was like, I'm already awake. I'm going to wake you up. You're going to go hang out with the baby. Now I'm laying here in bed. obsessively thinking about this choice that I made, you know, regretting it, thinking about how much easier it would have been to just get up with the baby than now sit here in bed. And I had my hands kind of like tucked underneath my legs. I was lying on my back and I was like, just stay here. Just receive it. You asked for it. It was happily given to you or whatever. begrudgingly given to you whatever

SPEAKER_03: 42:23

um just

SPEAKER_02: 42:24

for you got it to do is stay right here and this happened again last night i heard my daughter and it's so random usually i would get up and go see her but for some reason i said to my partner i was like hey she's calling for you I was totally asleep this is we kind of do like one-on-one kid because my kids have preferences um so but it was my kid but I was like she needs you and then I again was lying in bed like what I should have done I was awake I should have you know it could have been me and It's uncomfortable, but at a certain point, you just have to go back to sleep and you have to receive the fact that you have asked for what you need. You are getting what you asked for. And the biggest trick for me is the other person doesn't have to be overjoyed to give you what you've asked for in order for it to be okay for you to receive it. Because I always wanted my partner to have this like big grand display of like, thank you for asking for what you need. I love you so much. I want you to be so happy. No problem. I got it. And so when they kind of rolled their eyes, I'm really like, yeah, fine, I'll do that. I felt, you know, it felt uncomfortable to receive that. So working through my own discomfort instead of saying, you know, Hey, nevermind because I really do need the help and I really do need the reprieve and I really do need the space or the rest or to sit here for five minutes and eat my eggs. God talk about boundaries. That's been the biggest boundary of my year. I digress, but I set a boundary with my kids that I will make them one breakfast and then I will make myself a breakfast and And then I will sit down and I will eat my breakfast and I am perfectly willing to feed them all day long. And I do, but I'm not getting up from the table to get them anything else until I have finished my breakfast. And it's been amazing. It is just, it is amazing. actually blows my mind how transformative that single boundary has been because I was getting so resentful of and hungry and hangry. Okay, now I want a cheese stick. No, I want yogurt in a bowl. No, I want Cheerios. No, I want this. No, I want that. No, I need to eat something. And now I do.

SPEAKER_05: 44:55

Yeah. Those are simple things. I mean, and they're not, they're, they're not easy always, but like identifying the places that will give you the biggest bang for your buck while you're in process. Cause like, I do believe that, I mean, this might be optimistic, but I think that if you start like clearing the backlog, so this for people listening who you might be like in the weeds and you're trying to get out of it with your partner and you're both committed to working towards it, um, I think you would even feel joyous meeting some of those needs once the backlog is cleared. So you would like, you know, you might not even feel resentment that it's you have to get up because the kid's crying or like vice versa or asking for those more often than not, because it feels you see the act of caring for one another because it's just like the charge is gone for him. I like to think that that's. you know could be a more possible thing rather than like you know the practice of like asking and they're like they asked and then you do it but that you might actually do some of those things and then I know the places where I do the like like that and Haley and I just like have a code kind of like this is actually a thing that's important to me and I can I can snap out of it and that's that was like really hard for me to show up in that commitment like I wanted to ruin harvest dinner this weekend because I don't I don't like doing giant meals I chalked it up to my childhood of like it interrupted what I wanted to do and my family was giant and so meals took a lot of time and I never understood like why we had to do all of this cooking and then eating together and then cleaning um and uh And so when Haley started, I was like, you're interrupting what I want to do on Sunday. And I wanted to just like watch shows and do puzzles. And now we have to like get up and like roast vegetables. And so I could feel, she's like, could you go set the table nicely, like for a nice dinner? And I could feel myself like the inner child, like I wanted to wreck it. And I was like, I was being a shit. And she's like, I actually, I'm just really wanting to like commit to our fall harvest family tradition of like roasting the vegetables from our garden. And we do this thing and like this means something to me for a family and I was like oh okay yeah it's interrupting my thing but like I hear that and I had to push through because part of me was still like I still don't want to and then I could land actually in a place because I could hear her because we're like not letting that shit fester otherwise she would have let me have a tantrum and be a shithead and then you know, later had this thing like I wrecked fall harvest dinner and, you know, then the loop starts. I'm really enjoying having a clean, a fresher slate. So I do also see that I don't have a decade of muck on it. But it's allowing me to actually have the opportunity to see where I participated in the messes that we got to in previous relationships.

SPEAKER_04: 47:55

That's actually, I found one of the most impactful things that I found that my therapist had actually said to me when I was really like feeling overwhelmed that my husband and I continued having to have this conversation about the equity of the labor in our home and I was like I just want it to be like a one and done I don't want to continue to have this and one of the things she said she's like well you have to stop saving him And I was like, what are you talking about, Tara? I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. And so I find it's so interesting. For example, we have a puppy and that puppy needs to go for her first leg grooming. She needs to get her nails cut and her hair trimmed and all those things. And this is a max task. And so I'm not picking it up, even though it hasn't happened. It's been however long. And I'm like, it's a little bit killing me. But I'm also I'm not going to do it because he can do it. He's a grown ass man. And like he is very capable of following through on tasks.

SPEAKER_05: 48:57

And he wanted the dog.

SPEAKER_04: 48:59

And he really wanted this dog. And so just like that, like if I was to come in and just do it. And also I do want to hold. that Max and I have worked really, really hard on this. So I do know that he's going to show up and he's going to like lovingly do this. It's not going to be like, it'll just get dropped. It will get done. It won't get done on my timeline. But that if I was to just do it, then I'm safe. I'm doing what my therapist said, like I'm coming in to save the day. And she's like, just stop saving the day. And I was like, well, that sounds really easy, Tara. But Erin.

SPEAKER_02: 49:36

Meg, do you guys have a cut like a weekly conversation where you talk about the things like that that are on your radar?

SPEAKER_04: 49:45

not a weekly we talk about them like almost on the daily should it be weekly Well,

SPEAKER_02: 49:52

this is something that really helped me was for us to have, we do it much more easily now, but when I was trying to get to a more equal place several years ago, what I did was write down kind of everything that needed to be done over the course of that week from like lunches to drop-offs to pickups to, you know, whatever extraneous, like order the Halloween costumes, dog groomer, transfer station, whatever, all this stuff. And we would just go through everything. and pick which ones we were going to do. And it would be an opportunity for us to say something like, you know, I'm still thinking about the fact that the dog hasn't been groomed, not in a saving or a fixing kind of way, but just like, it is something that's, you know, on my mental load that I'm tracking that I wish would just be done or something like that. And both of us would be able to do that because lo and behold, there were things that my partner wanted me to do that I didn't. was not tracking and not wanting to do or thinking about, and also not capable of doing when our labor was in such a way. But once we started to really understand what was important to the other person, because what is important to my partner, I do not give a shit about truly. My partner really wants our house to be in a certain kind of working order, including the outdoor space, could not care less. And I am primarily concerned with the health and wellbeing of our children, which I think is really important. And basically, you know, I have a judgment that they just want our house to look good and don't give a shit about how anyone feels. And they feel like, oh, I want to do is flounce around and talk about feelings all day and never wash a dish. So when we would get together and I could see like, oh, It is really important to you to have help in planting those tulips. Please note all of my eye rolls. In planting those tulips, and I need you to take the dog to the groomer or at least make that appointment, because it was a regularly scheduled meeting, it didn't feel... Naggy. Naggy. Or saving. It just felt like, hey, this is what I'm thinking about. Hey, this is what I'm thinking about. And not making the assumption, because again, it's like the thing with needs, not making the assumption that the other person knows or cares about the thing that you know or care about. Oh, that's so helpful. My partner's like, well, didn't you notice that the plants in this sector of the garden needed to be watered? No, I did not.

SPEAKER_03: 52:31

I'm

SPEAKER_02: 52:32

thinking about the thing that I'm planning, the thing that I'm writing, you know, whether or not our kid has an appointment for the orthodontist. I'm tracking a whole different other pattern in the house. And even though we're both here working all day long, there's... there's really no overlap, even though the lie is that, oh, we're all paying attention to the same things all the time.

SPEAKER_05: 52:54

Right. Oh, I love that as a tool, like the parking lot mag, like your household parking lot. That's what we do for each of our departments. We do like a meeting and so all week everyone just dumps into the same dock and then we get to look at it. So it's not like a whole bunch of, as we all women have the pop into our head ideas and thoughts that we don't like dump them on each other. That's really, I love that because when you said that, I was like, oh yeah, because sometimes Haley would be like, oh we still haven't organized the back of the garage which has a closed door that nobody goes into and I'll be like who cares like there's these things haven't been done or she'll be like we still haven't you know changed the name on like whatever some bill and I'll be like what that's even clocked for you like it got paid who cares it's an old address it's an e-bill like those kinds of things and so like that's really helpful I also if I could put a little tip an equity tip that I'd like hayley and i both say the invisible things that we did in the day so i'll say like um i reached out to the principal and got that meeting booked and she'll say you know um i went into my she works on she's a profit university she's like i went in and double checked that the benefits go into effect starting next week and those would be things that neither of us would have known the other did and they were you know helpful or like i reached out to the painter he's going to come fix the ceiling tomorrow um because he happened to call my cell phone number and then And she can say, I swung by and I picked up the extra soil for the vegetable garden. It's in the trunk. And we like we now have it as a practice. And I really like it so that it's not the things of like you get to then weaponize those or list all the things you did that the other person hasn't even asked about or clocked. And we've been very conscious about it. And every time I'm like, oh, thank you for telling me. And then we both have like a two minute conversation. God, guys, having this clean slate is real fun.

SPEAKER_02: 54:47

No, but it's true. I do that too because I am the person who does all of the paperwork and all of the money in my house. And I felt like, well, you only know that I'm doing a job if I fuck it up. Yeah. You only know that anything is going on here from our taxes to our health care to– I mean– the complete framework of our family, in my opinion. And the only reason it would get on the radar is, oh shit, I did forget that thing. The lights

SPEAKER_05: 55:20

go out. There's no cell reception. The internet doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02: 55:26

Right. Well, and because my partner's jobs are often a lot more tangible. I live out in the boonies, so you have to take all of our trash and our recycling to the transfer station, which is not my favorite job. And It's the worst. Can be kind of gruesome. So, you know, they're like lugging trash cans and feeling like they do everything. And I'm like, well, let me remind you that I did this, this, this, this, this, this, and this, and this, that you benefit from. And, you know, they will be the first to say that they have a hard time tracking those things. And so I think that those reminders, honestly, even just that moment of gratitude too, like, thank you for doing that thing that, you You know, whether or not I think it's important.

SPEAKER_05: 56:09

It's got done though. And it needs to get done. Someone did it.

SPEAKER_04: 56:14

Something really interesting happened. This literally just happened this week. So my son has type 1 diabetes. So there's lots of like pump changes and dealing with his Dexcom and insulin and all of these things. And so the other day before I had even woken up, Max had changed his pump. And like he didn't tell me he didn't do anything about it. But later on that afternoon, I was like, oh, thank you so much for changing Gibson's pump. And he did a couple of other things. And I just like noted them throughout the day. and he was like I don't really like that and I was like what and he's like I don't really like when you're saying thank you he's like because I'm not helping you I'm just doing them and I'm like but I'm trying to acknowledge to you that I noticed that you did them I don't I don't take it as like a thank you for helping me I take it as a I acknowledge the effort you put in here

SPEAKER_05: 57:02

Haley said the same thing to me when we first started doing it yeah like why are you saying thank you for us for me doing something for our family and I was like oh because it feels good to hear it and then you You will then do it. I really like hearing the thank you. And she was like, oh, OK, that's clear. And then we got to understand. And I was like, I'm modeling. So I'm going to just be come straight out. I need the thank yous.

SPEAKER_02: 57:28

Not asking for what you need, but hoping that your partner will behave in kind, which can be tricky because again, if they don't and you don't talk about it, it's like, well, they don't think I deserve it. Meanwhile, they don't know they're playing a game with you where something is happening and something else is happening and they're just not, you know, it's not on their radar at all. I have a similar, my partner's like, I don't, Could not care less about words of affirmation. Do not want to talk about it or anything. I just want you to do things. You can thank me by doing things. And I don't want to do anything that I'm not being thanked for. Because part of the thing is like, I, you know, I wash the dishes because I knew it would make you feel good to have the dishes washed. And Clicky will march up and be like, you wash the dishes because we live in a society and in a society.

SPEAKER_05: 58:23

So. That sounds fun for you, Mara. That sounds really fun. I love that for you. I could not have washed the

SPEAKER_02: 58:29

dishes. Anyway. But yeah. And I, so I think. you know, having a working understanding too of, and meeting in the middle for that. You know, sometimes we're going to do a little thing that's good for me. And sometimes we're gonna do a little thing that's good for you. And a couple minutes of praising one another for our invisible labor, I think is good for everybody.

SPEAKER_04: 58:55

Yeah. the list. And then spewing it out their partner does like, I don't know if it would meet the buckets of like it not feeling naggy.

SPEAKER_05: 59:33

I just want to add a quick caveat with this. We want to ask about this because we recognize that sometimes these relationships are not ideal for mothers within them. And then there's usually an element of financial vulnerability and then the burden of dependence. So being a dependent with dependence is a really stressful situation. And it seems to be the most common pattern that we see in then partners are just like i actually have no intention of doing the bath so keep complaining about it i'm not moving from filling the task or i'm still not coming home from work early or whatever what are what are some survival tips

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:15

so each and every one of us gets to decide How long we are willing to not have some of these needs met in relationship. So this is a tricky conversation because sometimes the answer is going to be, you know, I'm actually not willing to continue with this pattern of being with somebody who refuses to show up for me in the ways that I need. That said, I think that a really good starting point, going back to that weekly meeting, is even to have a mutual understanding of the labor that the house requires. Because so often, and this happens in well-meaning relationships too, where, you know, my partner goes away and I've been with the baby all day and they think all I'm doing is watching TBS movies and eating bonbons while the baby, you know, I want that life. Like, what are you doing all day? Like hanging out with the baby? I'm like, let me tell you what I'm doing all

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:24

day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:25

So, you know, I think that having a list and the way that I do this is monday through sunday and just kind of listing everything because that's how my brain works but you could do this in a multitude of ways just listing literally everything that has to be done from you know laundry to getting a kid's dress to god forbid brushing the children's teeth my most loathed task yeah um you know planning dinner going grocery shopping all of that stuff and i think one thing that can be useful especially with partners who are resistant to helping is to illustrate quite literally what the multitude of tasks are. And so something that I might do is put everything down on a piece of paper, highlight all of the things that one partner is responsible for. And then in another highlighter, highlight the things the other partner is responsible for. And what this shows is, you know, for many of us, it's like a sea of one color with a few teeny tiny little islands of another color. And because it is visual, it can help to illustrate something that I think we have a hard time describing, but I also think that people have a hard time imagining. Say you're at work all day. You don't really have an understanding of everything that's being done to keep the house running and what that might look like. And so if we're able to have a greater mutual understanding of the work that it requires, then we can begin to have more of a conversation around that. You know, what am I going to be responsible for? What are you going to be responsible for? And ideally, I mean, there's some things nobody wants to be responsible for, but there's some things that we can kind of play to our strengths. As I said, my partner much prefers to do work in the outside of the house. I am controlling and I love to be in charge of all of the paperwork and all of the, you know, computer things. So when we divvy out that labor, we're first going to look at, you know, what do you enjoy? What are you good at? What do my partner, they wouldn't mind me saying, not great at math. So those money tasks are better suited for me. And I could not keep a plant alive to save my life. All of those tasks are better suited to them. So you can begin to have these conversations and break things out. But I think that it begins with... two things. The first is that map of having a greater understanding of everything that's being done and who is at current responsible for what. And the second piece is having a a meeting that you have once a week that you have, whether or not you're pissed at each other, because that's the thing that is so tricky. So often we're waiting to have these conversations until we're pissed. So the conversations are, you know, have that vibe that I'm angry about this thing. And now I'm going to talk to you about the thing that I'm angry about versus this is what we do on a Sunday morning. And we both get to talk and sometimes I'm going to be pissed. Sometimes I'm going to be like, well, don't really have much to report. But it's a thing that happens regardless of our feelings. And that makes a huge difference for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:41

If the task of creating it for any of our beautiful listeners, if that feels overwhelming, what you can do is over the next two weeks, you grab your phone, you make a notepad in your phone. And every time you do something in real time, you create the list so you don't have to just sit and dig through the mental load. Because I find when you're already overwhelmed, another task is like... Fuck off, Mara, like that. So now when you are, you know, you go RSVP at the birthday or the daycare pickup lineup, then you write RSVP to birthdays. And then as you're at the toy store picking out the gift, you write buy gift for birthday parties. And then it's in real time and it might feel a little less onerous to actually put that down. And you can actually ask your partner to do the same thing. So there might be places that you haven't clocked that they say, you insurance company and you know whatever ordered snow removal service I did very gendered ones that was ridiculous sorry everybody but like there might be things that you're just like oh fuck I didn't even think about the warranty for the dishwasher thank you for following up with Maytag So the exercise itself might support the fact that the patriarchy isn't really serving anyone. So we do think that men and fathers are sitting back like love and life and they're not. They also have their places of shame and invisibility and non-participation in the family structures and grief for like, you know, that they don't receive gratitude in the places that feel really important. And we're operating in an overarching theme of there's a moral and a different weight of or validity to the tasks that we have. So we usually prioritize money making tasks, having more value than, you know, structural day to day maintenance tasks. And, you know, we can put a middle finger up to the patriarchy and capitalism for that. But this is what we're operating in. And so it's really important to have those conversations. to be like, if your job is just bringing home a paycheck and you feel like that's equal to my 65 tasks a day, we have to have a different conversation.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:52

And

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:55

honestly, even if... I find that this... having this kind of working understanding is useful, even if you're having 65 tasks a day, and you're cool with that. Because for some of us, we do, you know, whatever, look, people feel all different ways about things like taking care of kids and washing dishes and doing laundry, and that's fine. But even just the overwhelm of the mental load of holding on to all of the things that you do is improved by having a a system in place so that you can better make decisions or better understand, you know, one of the reasons that we're so exhausted is because we have this magical realist relationship with space and time. And we think like, Oh, It is absolutely conceivable to do this, this, this, and this in the five minutes before pickup. When maybe I could do one of the, maybe I could do one of those things, but I certainly can't do three. But then of course it's my fault. I'm not doing a good job. I'm not enough. I should have moved faster when I, you know, again, very special, but not a superhero. So I think that even if it's just a tool for you to start to have an understanding and an appreciation of your own labor is huge because so much of being able to meet our needs or feeling as though, you know, you know, I don't think we need to or can earn having our needs met, but if that's the framework that you're working in right now, okay, I'll meet you there, which is the more that you appreciate yourself for everything that you have done, the more that you are going to believe that you are deserving of having your needs met. And that is, that piece is really important too just from a personal perspective of everything that you're doing over the course of the day seeing that is valuable knowing where you've put your energy and honoring the fact that you could have done anything but what you did was laundry and that is important and that is valuable to your family

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:59

oh i love that

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:02

totally

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:03

So Mara, you work with people who might need to identify their boundaries. They might learn how to, you know, honor them first with themselves, because if we don't honor our boundaries with ourselves, we can't expect other people to honor them. So if one were to want to do a deeper dive there, they can reach out to you and do that. What are some of the things you do with your clients?

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:27

Yeah. Well, I wrote a whole book about it, how to figure out what you need and how to ask for it. It is coming out in February, but I have whipped up some really awesome pre-order bonuses for everyone who orders early. If you want to go over to maraglatzel.com backslash book, you can check all of that goodness out. And I am about to kick off in November, a year long program called Roost, where we talk all about setting boundaries, honoring your needs, sustainable productivity, appreciating yourself. And really, you know, my work is so much about the guts of okay, but how? Like, okay, I have needs, but I'm also a parent, a person with a mortgage, a person with a job, you know, how do I make it work? And I'm really passionate about answering that question. And each and every one of us are different. But You know, what I know to be true is that we can live with more satisfaction and ease than we do right now. And all of the things that we've talked about today are a part of that. And, you know, especially that last piece that I spoke to, believing that your efforts are deserving and worthy and good. And that you by proxy are a valuable person. I was cracking up the other day because somebody reminded me that several years ago they were at a retreat with me and I told them that they themselves were a special occasion. And I've been thinking about that ever since. Like you, Mara Glatzel, are a special occasion. So, you know, you out there listening, you are a special occasion. And what would you do differently if you really believed that?

SPEAKER_05: 1:11:09

I love that because you are and we do not need to wear exhaustion as a badge of honor we can rest we can find joy you can have times where you don't have things to do and you just get to be alone even with other people being productive quote productive around you let your family vacuum while you lift your feet while reading your magazine so thank you for sharing all of that the book is called needy we'll have that in the show notes that you can all the places you can can follow Mara her posts are great her workshops are wonderful everything is really accessible so I highly encourage it as an affordable option if you might not be able to work one-on-one with something with somebody it's a really great entry point to start some of that healing because I know that it can feel a little bit unjust that you have to do this work because of somebody else but really you get to decide how much joy you feel and I That is something you can control. That's how I make peace when I feel grumpy about going to therapy because of my mom and doing this because of my kid and doing this because of my friend. Then I'm like, yeah, but this is for me. And that might shift the framework a little bit for you. We're going to share the amazing nuggets. I've been listing them as we go. So we'll have a post coming out so that you can easily access some of these little tips that we've shared through our personal experiences as well as our work with clients. Mara, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Oh, thanks for having me. It's been wonderful. Oh my gosh. We're counting down the days. Yeah. Thank you so much. And head over to check out Mara's work. We strongly suggest it, but you do you boo boo kitty. All right. Thanks everyone. Bye. Want

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to keep hanging out with us? Find out at BeboMia.com or head over to your favorite social media platform with the handle at BeboMia Inc. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave podcast.