Hot+Brave
Hosted by birth worker and activist Bianca Sprague from bebo mia Inc (https://bebomia.com/), Hot + Brave is like a hilarious conversation with your feisty friend who doesn’t give a f*ck. Brave stories, business support, hot topics and #truthbombs that will either balm your soul or light fire to your rage.
Hot+Brave
S2E04 Bigger than babies: Navigating In/Fertility with Regina Townsend
Today Bianca chats with Regina Townsend from The Broken Brown Egg about the many underrepresented facets of in/fertility and the profound impact that this journey of self discovery has in so many aspects on a persons' life. Regina also discusses etiquette and the power of words for promoting a kinder humanity.
Regina's book:
Make IF Make Sense: Putting words to the feels of infertility
www.bebomia.com
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube, Pinterest, LinkedIn or Twitter.
When you see fertility in mainstream, it's usually white women or people who have the money, or it's presented in such a way where it's cosmetic, but you don't have to get pregnant. It's not life altering. So what's the big deal? And that leaves out all of those emotional, mental health, all of those things that are bigger issues. Like I tell people all the time, infertility is bigger than babies. It affects all that I thought of myself, all that I thought of my achievements. It's an ongoing existential crisis.
SPEAKER_01:You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you will hear brave stories, hot topics, and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the balm you need for your soul.
SPEAKER_00:Hello everyone and we are going to be diving in today and talking about a topic that spends too much time in the shadows and seeing as there's usually a general level of curiosity which can lead to careless interactions with folks who are trying to conceive, we felt like it was even more urgent to talk about. Yes, we are going to be continuing season two which is all about the body and we're going to be talking about fertility and infertility. I'm so excited to be talking to Regina Townsend all about how we can have a better understanding and how we can care for one another as we are talking about that trying to conceive or the general field of conception. Regina had a great tip for self-care as well as some awesome surviving the world as you're deep in your infertility experiences. And one of the things made me think about how often the quote should comes up in our life. So find out all about this and more in this episode. And as always, if you need to take care of your heart, press pause, go for a headphones as we cuss every now and then. And if you want to support folks in their infertility experiences, you can grab a spot in our fertility specialist certification. It starts February 7th. If you're hearing this after that start date, write us and we can get you registered. Go to babelmia.com forward slash links to find out more. Also, I just learned that Regina is also a jigsaw puzzle collector like me. So if that doesn't make this interview just the cherry on your weekly Sunday, I don't know what will. Here is my interview with Regina. Welcome everyone to the Hot and Brave podcast. I'm your host, Bianca Sprague, and we are in season two, which is all about the body. We've been talking about medical care, fat phobia, our cycles, and so much more. And we would be remiss if we did not talk about fertility as we talk about the body. And it's something that's happening so much in the shadows, and there's a lot of secrecy around it. And the trying to conceive journey can be all consuming, which makes it really lonely when we're not talking about it out in the open. Today, I am joined by the founder of The Broken Brown Egg, Regina Townsend, and she's also one of the facilitators for the Babelmia Fertility Specialist Certification, which starts February 7th. She's an advocate, public speaker, and a librarian. I found that very fascinating. There she is. And who uses the intersections of these passions to help others feel seen, heard, and empowered by bringing light to the issues impacting marginalized groups. And we are very happy to have you here today, Regina. I'm
SPEAKER_03:happy to be here. You know, I love anything that Babel Mia does. I hang out with you guys whenever I can. It's like, you know, it's like going to brunch.
SPEAKER_00:But we don't have to put good pants on. But you don't
SPEAKER_03:have to dress up. Yeah, I love it. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we're so happy to have you. And anyone here who has gone through our MSP program, you've caught the modules that Regina's done. And so some of you, this might be something you already know, but many of you, Regina might be brand new. So what brought you to the work of fertility slash infertility?
SPEAKER_03:Uh, frustration and anger and rage. No, but seriously, that really is. I was frustrated about my own periods and not getting any answers and constantly being told just lose weight. Maybe it's your thyroid. Maybe if you ate better, maybe. But nobody did any kind of extra testing. Nobody ever looked into anything. I sat in waiting rooms for hours at the emergency room, at the doctor's office with no information. And I just kind of dealt with it because I thought, well, this is what people deal with. This is what people who menstruate deal with. So I just going to deal with it. And then when I got married, I was 23 and I thought, well, this is pretty young. So once I get pregnant, my periods will regulate and then it'll be fine. And then I didn't get pregnant. And then I was like, well, okay. So now that messes up the plan here. And then whenever I would go about the period, they would just be like, well, here's birth control pills, just take these. And I'd be like, well, that's kind of counterproductive to what I'm trying to do here. And the more that I would get kind of ignored, the more frustrated I would get. And so being a librarian, I would go try to research it myself, look it up, try to find blogs, try to find information. And all the blogs were white women and who had a different kind of relationship with going to the doctor. I noticed just in their tone, not that it wasn't as stressful, but there were certain things that people of color are just not used to in terms of like being direct and asking your doctor a question, calling back when you left the appointment, saying, I want a second opinion, right? Then and there, like changing doctors. We weren't that comfortable with that. And then I also- Safety, just general safety. Just general stuff. Yeah. And then I realized, okay, so first of all, I don't have that same comfort level or I would see blogs where they'd be like, and it's awful either way, why it should be covered. But people who'd be like, you know, insurance only covered this portion. So we had to sell our house and we had to do this. And I was like, whoa, they had to sell their house. So me as a lower to middle income person of color in Chicago, one of the most segregated cities in the country, if they had to sell their house and I haven't even been able to afford to buy a house, this is unattainable for me. And so I felt like that and that weight was like crushing on me. But then at the same time, I'm seeing all this Black women are hyperfertile and we need people to be, you know, really in their neighborhoods pushing, you know, contraception and all these other things. And I was like, something doesn't match. Yeah. If on one hand you're telling me that I'm hyperfertile and now on the other hand, you're telling me, oh, but at the same time, you can't get pregnant and we're not going to help you. It just... I was like, okay, something's wrong. And I started to think about all of the relatives I had who were great with kids, were always the babysitters, teachers, all that. They didn't have kids. And I thought, oh, they couldn't have kids. Nobody ever said that. Nobody ever asked them. I wonder how they felt. I'm just going to have to start talking about it. And the more I talked about it, the more people of color would reach out and say thank you because nobody in my family talks about this. Nobody in my family ever goes to the doctor unless it's time to go to the emergency room. So thanks for mentioning that I could look for a doctor, like those kinds of things were foreign. And I just never shut up about it after that. I was just like, no, I don't want anybody else to feel as like, I was terrified to go to the bathroom. Cause I was like, I'm going to bleed through my clothes. I was frustrated. I felt like, My self-esteem had taken a hit. It was just, I was so isolated and lonely and I just didn't want anybody else to feel like that. Especially once I realized that if you get a doctor who listens to you, things could move a little bit faster. And then I was angry.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Could you have failed? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Did you want to have a comment around the statistics about the hyper fertility of black girls? Do you have a comment about that? Did you want to have a platform here to say that
SPEAKER_03:that's not true? It vexes me to no end because there's so much historical context that gets left out of that. ridiculous stereotype. And what people tend to leave out is the fact that in many places where the African diaspora has reached, we were the lifeblood of the economy. And not getting pregnant could lead to you getting sold away, you getting harsher treatment. It could be, you know, you may have chosen a partner, but based on who you're owner was, they may have paired you with someone else and you didn't want to get pregnant, but you were, or you were getting pregnant by all, there were all of these different reasons. There was also a lack of access to information about contraceptive care. And so when you take that and you look at it, you go, well, maybe these people weren't just hyper fertile. They didn't have the same access. They didn't have the same information. And then that's the part that incenses me. Because you run with the stereotype, but you don't include the context because you don't want to touch on the race part. And it's like, yeah, but that's part of it. You can't not like I get it. But solving things is not you don't solve things by going, oh, don't look at it. Yeah, you solve it by saying, OK, that's messed up. Let's do something different than that. But that that stereotype bugged me when I was 15, my mom and my dad. for whatever reason, my parents have spaced their children out ridiculously. So there's nine years between me and my sister. There's 15 years between me and my brother. I was mortified to be anywhere with my brother by myself when he was a baby, because I was like, people are going to assume he's mine. They're going to assume he's mine. They're not going to think about, they don't care that I'm an honor roll student. They don't care that I, you know, National Honor Society, they don't care. They're going to assume he's mine. They're going to judge me. They're going to make me feel low. I should have had to think about that at 15.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, no. And that's more speaking, I would say, to the hyper-sexualization of Black girls, the fast girl narrative. Yep. Cross your legs,
SPEAKER_03:sit right up, sit like a girl. You can't play like that anymore. You can't wear that anymore. And it's like, well, she's six. She can't have a swimsuit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So she can't wear leggings because she's seven.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. She's seven. You're looking at it like that. Yeah, I know. I know. Yeah, I remember some of the stuff that was said to Gray because she's got a delicious tush on her. And I remember nobody in the white side of the family said anything. But all of her black side was like, you can't put her in those leggings anymore. And I was like, she's eight. She's going to be in leggings probably for another five years. Yeah. And they're like... No, no, no. We don't want to see that. Cover it up.
UNKNOWN:Cover it up.
SPEAKER_00:I was like, we're not, she's playing. What? She's wearing leggings and a turtleneck. Like, let's move on.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And even that, the hyper-sexualization, there's two sides of it because there's the one side of without the context was protective because if you did start to get noticed, same dangers, right? Yeah, risk of sexual violence. Yeah, you're more at risk for violence, all these other things. And it just, without the context, it just turned into this very restrictive, like a lot of people that I talk to, especially in my faith community, it's like there's this frustration of being hyper-sexualized and told that you're constantly hyper-fertile. And yet at the same time, you've also, religion has been used to restrict your sexuality and tell you that you can't wear and you can't be. So it's like you are in this constant trying to figure out who you are within the confines of your stereotypes and the judgments and your own beliefs. It's exhausting.
SPEAKER_00:It's so complicated. And now go get pregnant.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and now just go get pregnant. Or when you're trying to figure all that out, just keep bleeding for a month. It's fine. If something goes wrong, just lose weight. And we're not going to talk about the fact that your community doesn't have fresh or healthy produce or be in a food desert. It's no matter. Yeah,
SPEAKER_00:I know. Well, we talk a lot about that. If anyone wants to circle back to earlier episodes this season, we had Virgie Tovar on there. Real mad about all of it. Meg and I talk about dismantling fat phobia. Weight is not the conversation starter. So if your doctor says it, it's a great indicator to change practitioners because it's time to go. And we'll be continuing that conversation with Priyanka Saju in a couple of weeks. So we've got lots of juicy conversations around weight. Taking back our body and the red flags of shitty, shitty care. I mean, we can recognize that there is a lot of the who's and the what's being left out of the conversation around this. What do you flag as some of the like places that that we need to shine the light on? Shine the light on us. Care and love and dismantling and disproving both the positives and the negatives. All of
SPEAKER_03:those things. The cultural context is
SPEAKER_00:a
SPEAKER_03:huge one. And not just of people of color, but different religious background, different cultural background. Race is one part of it, but I find that some of the same frustration and sadness when I talk to someone who is Muslim and feels like they did not get the information or someone who was Jewish and feels like, oh, let me tell you the things that I've heard that have would curl your hair. Like there's so much that gets left out. And when you see fertility in mainstream, it's usually white women or people who have the money or it's presented in such a way where it's cosmetic. but you don't have to get pregnant. It's not life altering. So what's the big deal? And that leaves out all of those emotional, mental health, all of those things that are bigger issues. Like I tell people all the time, infertility is bigger than babies. It affects all that I thought of myself, all that I thought of my achievements. It's an ongoing existential crisis, 24 hours a day. And those things, I feel like we could do so much better at just leaving space and leaving room to not harm one another with our words.
SPEAKER_04:If we
SPEAKER_03:think about what we're asking and saying and come to things with a sense of genuine curiosity rather than judgment or affirmation rather than accusation. Like a lot of times I would have relatives that would say things like, what are you waiting for? First of all, mind your business. But second of all, what are you waiting for implies that I'm choosing to wait. Whereas an affirmative thing you could have said would have been, I think you'd be a great parent one day, period.
SPEAKER_00:That's all I have to say. If you would like to, if that's in your plan. Yes,
SPEAKER_03:if that's in your plan, I support you. It's like nobody thinks that far. And that drives me crazy. Just crazy. From the fertility aspect, from the general medical care aspect, I don't think that enough attention, and I know there's a lot of movements right now trying to change that, but I don't think that a lot of attention has been given to just our general lack of quality access to care, quality access to health literacy, quality access to physicians who are culturally competent, or even if they're not even competent of the culture at large, at least be competent of the neighborhood that you're practicing in. At least be competent in the environment that you're working in.
SPEAKER_00:That
SPEAKER_03:drives me to drink.
SPEAKER_00:Well, especially even just the language part. Find out the words people are using. There's massive gaps in care because people, whether we're talking about Or we're talking about fertility things or we're talking about like like literally anything to do with our bodies. You have to be using the language. So are you using pain? Are people using the word sensations? Are they talking about the secret? Are they talking like you have to use the words of your body? of your patient in front of you, which means you're going to have to use different words all the time. So learn them. And
SPEAKER_03:be willing to listen. Like I was just talking to someone today about like how to find a doctor and how there are certain buzzwords that you can look for that let you know if this person is going to be willing to work with you. You know, are they saying things like 50-50 partnership? Are they saying things like I work with the patient? I work to learn more about you. Like there are certain things that tell you that they're going to give a crap about who you are as a person and like how to say I don't understand can you help me can you walk me through
SPEAKER_04:you
SPEAKER_03:have to be willing you know as a doctor to kind of come down off of that I went to med school and be willing to listen how much community outreach do they get a chance to like those kind of things this journey has made me way more aware of and I'm hopeful that i can keep trying to teach other people to look for those things too like this is important
SPEAKER_00:yeah your body um it's interesting but i remember a couple semesters ago um there was a there was maybe three or four um south asian students that we had who were They didn't know each other, but they just started a really interesting dialogue thread around infertility that it is something that they just don't talk about. They don't talk about... They all commented on their particular families and communities that they didn't have an experience where you would have shared about your cycle. You would have had menstruation conversations. Therefore, once you were married, everyone just did the hassling part of the baby, but not the other part. And then... I remember two of the students actually came forward and was like, we went to like our in community doctors. I think one was Canadian and one was American. And they also treated it. They're male doctors. They also treated it with the same more like cultural ambivalence rather than a medical like a medical inquisitive, like being like that's for, you know, you and your husband pat your hand when it's time. And and so I was I felt so torn when I was like witnessing this because I was like I don't want to recommend that you get care from outside your community because I think we should have care from people like I prefer having queer practitioners and I know there's folks that like like having whatever they're like a dominant markers for them but at the same time I was like they're actually not treating you like a doctor would they're treating you like a grandparent would so what do we do here yep
SPEAKER_03:I literally just had this conversation today it's so timely okay perfect because I literally I just sat here today with a coworker and was like, she was telling me about her doctor and I was just like, yeah, so what's your medical group? Because we're going to need to look this up right now. And I had to like go on because I was just incensed at the thought. And I do try to make sure, you know, again, I do, I try to look and see, you know, who might have any of those markers that you identify with that you'd like to be able to talk to, because there is a level of anxiety that goes down Totally. You can relate to the person that you're speaking to. But that combined with, are they willing to talk with you? Are they willing to learn about you? Are they willing, like my doctor who finally discovered that my tubes were blocked and that I had PCOS and all this other stuff, wonderful white woman who did wonders for for just my self-esteem after having gone to so many others who didn't listen to me. And it's like, it's not so much that she was a person of color. It was that she was finally the one who listened. But I do look for people who have something that I have in common with because at least then I can kind of think they're gonna see me as a person and recognize what I am coming to the table with. And I think that there's so much to be said But yeah, when you're dealing with a doctor who's like, I'm just not going to address this from a medical standpoint and not recognize this is affecting your quality of life, that drives me insane. Like your quality of life is important. It's important to think about how this person is able to walk through life now based on what you did or didn't do for them and what they're struggling with and whether or not you've made it their fault that they're struggling with.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Because it's just like it leaves you really stranded because you want to like this is your practitioner in care. I actually now that I'm thinking about it, I've had several of my Orthodox Jewish clients have the same issue in Toronto where that's like treated with the same taboo that like you shouldn't like a man shouldn't be talking about this with a woman instead of like, do you actually know where the ejaculate goes? Because it's been a secret. Nobody's talked about it. So like, are you having... like sex that might lead to fertility. But if you're not allowed to talk about it,
SPEAKER_03:they don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Three
SPEAKER_03:or four years ago, I went to a networking group with other fertility and reproductive health workers in Chicago. And one of, we had a sexual therapist come and talk to us about how to talk to our patients. And she said that she had had a couple come in who were trying to Desperately to get a referral to a fertility specialist because they weren't getting pregnant. And she said no one had ever asked them those kind of questions. And when she did, she found out that they were not actually having intercourse. Yeah, not penetrative sex. They didn't know that. And it's like, you know, the hypersexualization of so many other things people assume, well, everybody knows. No, they don't. No, they don't. they need the care of someone who's willing to get into that with them and talk them through it as a practitioner and someone who cares about what they care about to even get that information. They were about to spend thousands of dollars on fertility treatment when someone could have just ask the question
SPEAKER_00:yeah is there penetration with ejaculation preferably an orgasm for both of you and then maybe this consent you know run down the list um but that's so i feel really torn and i'm finding it's coming up more and more like now that we're especially in um with bebo mia moving into so many countries that i'm like if you have to go to this practitioner in their part of Egypt and that's what your family goes and they're the person who's been treating your community yet you can't ask questions you can't talk about sex you can't talk about painful sex you can't talk about your cycle and then I'm like fuck you're supposed to be like this is medical shit this is
SPEAKER_03:your body like it's a big machine like the way I try to explain to people is this is a giant piece of machinery I would like to know how to operate
SPEAKER_00:it
SPEAKER_03:My car comes with a manual. This does not. So I learn about it by living in it. And then this doctor learns about bodies in general. And then we put our information together and I build a manual as I go. But I would like to know how to work this thing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Some of the parts are replaceable, but for the most part, I only get one
SPEAKER_00:of these. The main frame. The main frame. Yeah, I like that. I want to talk about etiquette in one second. But first, what would you wish you could share with someone early in their trying to conceive journey? Or what do you wish you had known? Oh. Oh,
SPEAKER_03:that it's bigger than babies. That it was important for me to also remember myself. That it was not indicative of my worth. And that it doesn't... You get through infertility. You don't get over it. There's scars that you have. And what you do with those scars is up to you. You know, there's some people who are like, I don't discuss that journey anymore because... I resolve to be child free and I just can't. And then there's other of us who are like, that pain has to have a purpose, but it doesn't fully go away. There are things that even now that I have a six year old, there's moments where I still am kind of like left. I feel left out of the quote unquote normal mommy life.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_03:I wish someone had with compassion explained to me that like, let's work on keeping you grounded in yourself so that you are not thrown off by those moments where you're still like, man, I'm still not really in the mom group. I wish somebody had done that. So I do try to remind people like this is a marathon, not a sprint. That doesn't mean it has to take forever. It just means that it's not as simple as you might expect and that the baby isn't the happy ending. The self-love and still being okay with Yourself is the happy ending.
SPEAKER_00:You
SPEAKER_03:can have a baby and still be struggling with all those feelings you had in the first place.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, if not more, because the expectation versus reality is a big gap. I mean, and we see that research. It's fascinating how deep and prolific those messages are, because when I had my hysterectomy, which was a choice I deeply regret, and I remember the first week after, I had no intention of having more children. I'm a super dyke, so I don't need the approval of males or desire their sexual attention and the first walk that I did post-op like around my neighborhood down a main street the grief I felt of no longer having a purpose on the planet that I was like they can see that I don't have any value anymore and I like couldn't shake it off and I was so thrown off by it because I was like this doesn't seem like me yeah like i i was so clear i wasn't having any more babies from my body um i i don't need that approval i have so much more purpose my being a parent is the least interesting thing about me um like i don't even tell most people unless they say do you have children and then i'm like oh yeah yeah i do like it's it's not me like that's something outside of me it's a thing i did and um and i was so like i was like they can see they could see that i don't have it
SPEAKER_03:shocks you that they I think that you're evolved beyond almost. Like I'm, And I think that's part of what affects, and I'm sure that's a lot of different people, but I know that in terms of the black community, what I've heard a lot from black women is that's part of what affects us the deepest is that we strive for excellence out of necessity. You gotta be the best. You gotta be two times better than everybody. You gotta be on top of it so that nobody catches you slipping. You never let them see you sweat and you get into this routine. And then on top of that, you need to make sure you get all the good grades and you gotta go to the right college and then don't get married until you get it all together and Don't get pregnant because that'll mess it
SPEAKER_00:up. All
SPEAKER_03:that pressure. And then when you want to get pregnant, it's like, well, wait, somebody lied to me. And you thought, yeah, you're like, somebody lied. But you've gotten so used to being this high achieving person, not just because you want to be, but because it's like, if I'm not, I'm useless almost. And then when you equate, this is one more thing that I will accomplish, right? and then it doesn't happen, it's like, wait a minute, who am I? And you can have all the accolades in the world and you'll still be like, yeah, but, yeah, I know, but. And in the middle of my fertility journey, I was doing tons of things. I was achieving, I was going to school, I was doing all these things and I still felt like, yeah, but, yeah
SPEAKER_00:I um it was a I I had a lot of understanding it was a I got it I understand what you're saying and I did it before that experience like I I um and I didn't realize yet it was yet another place of privilege that was I was so blind to that I was like yeah especially because I didn't love motherhood and so I had this like I asked, I didn't accidentally intended, but based on misinformation from my provider that I would be infertile after this procedure I was getting done. And so I had a baby early. So I was like, Oh, this fucked up my med school plans. She's really difficult. I'm poor. I'm alone. I'm single parent. Like this is, I don't know. Why do you guys want this? Yeah. And so I just like, it was my, my perfect storm that I was like, guys, there's so much nicer being childless. Like all the things you would never say, but in my head. And then it wasn't until I lost my uterus that I was like, oh fuck I get it I didn't even want it and I feel this grief and this like worthlessness and this has been taken from me and yet I couldn't and then I was like oh I can just touch on the depth and breadth of what that grief would be like if that was something you actually like you wanted and it was taken yes and robbed the
SPEAKER_03:feeling of being robbed and one of the other hardest things that I I've been a librarian for 15 years I think and the hard part moments would catch you off guard. And I tell them that's part of it is that you don't know what's going to trigger you until it does with this. You could be fine watching TV and then boop, they threw an infertility plot in there. You know, last night I was watching like Fuller House and they just threw it in there. Dang it. But I was also a school librarian and a children's librarian and you could know all the same things as, you know, I have a whole master's degree in this. And then a parent would ask for a book recommendation and then they'd say, oh, but are you a parent? And I've, would just plummet because it was like so because I'm not a parent I can't recommend the books that I purchased for the library that someone else is gonna like those kind of moments would just kind of come out of nowhere and I'd be like really and I hear those kind of things from teachers kindergarten teachers librarians high school teachers um Same with like those of us who are in education and our students start aging out and then they have kids and it's like, oh, gut punch. Yeah. Yeah. Or like just what you contribute as their educator and someone who cares for them every day. That isn't enough. One of the most humbling things one broken brand name follower told me was how she felt during the, um, home study process for adoption. She was like, I am the in loco parentis for 45 children every day. And I have to have this person come into my home and make me feel like I have to earn the right to do what other people can do on accident. And I was just, my heart just broke. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, I mean, we have the history of who gets babies and who doesn't from, uh, you know, other, other sources, I don't know, I guess other channels, other methods, um, has always been riddled with, you know, discrimination and judgment and external things. Um, whether we're talking about race or, or, um, sexual orientation, class, queers weren't allowed to adopt babies until way too recently. Um, and so it's a, it's a very complicated space and, um, yeah, it's a, it's a good point that we trust the chill all day long tons of them but like let's let's be real sure about this one yeah yeah so I mean the etiquette piece so this for anyone here who might not have had a trying to conceive journey it's safe to say you are engaging with lots of folks in your world that you may or may not know have been going through an extended trying to conceive journey so we're going to talk about etiquette and how we can all be taking care of each other. And I know that this is an area that Regina and I were talking about where people feel like they have a carte blanche to say whatever they want. So some of this you could just apply in your general life. It's just life. Something's not your business. It's not your business. Okay. So let's talk about some of the places that we might require some sensitivity as well as things that we could avoid saying the do's and don'ts. Give
SPEAKER_03:it to us. The workplace is a big one. And school. When I was deep down, Deep in my fertility journey, I was in library school and one of my professors found out that one of our classmates was pregnant and decided to do a baby shower in class. Madam, no, ma'am, I won't be there. We're not doing this. You're not going to do this to me. This is my one place that I'm paying for. I'm not going to do this. And the same thing goes with work environments. You know, giving people the out, I think, is something for everywhere. When it comes to these celebratory events, this flips everything that I've been taught in a family that is all about hospitality and all those kind of thing, but I don't care. I have to put myself first because if I kill myself trying to adhere to all of these expectations, there is no, what is that going to do for anybody? And so we have this societal expectation that when you get invited to a baby shower, you need to go. We have a habit, our elder relatives have a habit of saying things like, well, you should go. You should do. If you don't go, you're not caring for that person. You don't need to tell people that. You don't need to tell people that because if someone is making that choice to choose themselves, support them. That's what they need because they've already probably fought that battle in their head of, oh, I'm a bad friend. I'm a terrible person if I don't go. It is so much more supportive. Yeah, it is so much more supportive to say, good for you for choosing yourself. Are you going to send a gift? Do you need some help with that? That is always better. And then I wish that I did better with this one, but I do try, is making conversations inclusive. So when I do go to baby showers or family gatherings or whatever, it never fails when there is a group of women in a space, they start talking about their birth story and who did what. And for someone who was in the The depths of infertility, I don't want to hear that. Or I was curious and didn't want to hear it, but I felt incredibly left out. So I try myself when I notice a conversation going in that direction, I try to bring it around to an inclusive topic so that it's more like, what is something that's frustrating to you about this topic? How do you struggle with coming up with dinner? Not just, I get tired. trying to figure out what to feed my kid. The person who doesn't have kids, that's like, oh, so I can't just be frustrated that I don't know what to feed myself at night. I'm tired of thinking of dinner every night also. Those kind of things bugged me. In terms of what people say, oh my gosh, I have a list. Don't tell people, oh, you can have my bad kids. That's a big one. Oh my gosh. The number of people who have told me that they hear that one, you'd be surprised. It's ridiculous. When they're talking to friends or relatives and they're like, you sure you want kids? Because this one is over here getting on my nerves. You can come pick up my kids anytime. Don't say that. Don't say that. No.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, make them being like, but you get to sleep in. Yeah, you get to sleep in. You get to travel.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Another one that grinds my gears is you're so young, but you're so young. You have lots of time. You have so much time. You don't even have to worry about that. Do I? Because they told me I was so young. And then the very next year they were like, and now this is a geriatric pregnancy.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Just shut up with that. You're so young. What are you waiting for? It's God's will. You're not praying enough. That was big in the faith communities of if you are trusting God, you should be able to relax. I mean, relax is a big one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was just going to say, I think you should just back it up to the like, if you relax, go on a vacation. Just when you're not thinking about it, that's when
SPEAKER_03:it'll
SPEAKER_00:happen.
SPEAKER_03:When you adopt, watch, as soon as you get adopted, then it's going to happen. Or my best friend's co-worker's uncle's sister's cousin, she did. I don't care what they did. They're not me. I don't care what they did. Don't tell me about them. First of all, that's going to piss me off because now I'm going to be comparing myself to somebody I don't even know. Second of all, you don't know everything about what your cousin's best friend's co-worker's sister did. They didn't tell you the whole story. You don't know everything. No. One that I've heard from doctors that they hate is a little bit opposite of the you're so young. It's the, well, Janet Jackson had a baby when she was 50. Celine Dion. And the doctors that I've spoken to are like, that is frustrating because it leaves out that that person probably had a donor experience. egg or donor sperm or donor something, or had frozen their eggs years ago. And now you're just putting it out here on us weekly. Like, but you can have a baby when you're 60, maybe, but with all these other things. Yeah. So we just, we never tell the full conversation. And I think that's why I push having these conversations with younger people, I talk to my nieces that are teens. I talk to, you know, having these conversations younger makes it so one, this person doesn't grow up and it's like, who lied to me? They can go, well, Gina didn't. But also the more that we take the stigma off the conversation, the more that you get the full scope of what this is. So many people don't know how much goes into fertility until they need to know how much goes into fertility. When I started to learn all the pieces, I was like, it's a wonder any of us exist.
SPEAKER_00:I know, right?
SPEAKER_03:It's crazy that any of us are here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Y'all, go learn about your body. Like, it's step one. It's just like, go check it out. Maybe with a book. Maybe with a mirror if you feel comfortable. Maybe just, like, journaling. Just closing your eyes, feeling your heartbeat. Like, whatever the thing is. I have one of my friends who had a seven-year trying to conceive journey. She's like... I, she grew up in an area where a lot of her friends had had babies in high school. She's like, I spent my entire high school teen career being terrified and trying not to get pregnant and everyone around me. And then who knew? And I was like, I'm going to be responsible, be responsible. And then I get here and then I was like, yeah, but did you have all the same issues at that time? Like, like you're essentially PCOS symptoms. And she's like, yeah, but I didn't know about that. I didn't know
SPEAKER_03:that. You don't know. You don't even know. There's some people Didn't even know they had PCOS until they were trying to get pregnant. Yeah. No, they had a thyroid condition. And it's like, but that was a quality of life concern before we even got here. And I wish back to things that we wish people would know. I wish that people would look at it as not, not getting pregnant is not the responsible thing. Giving me all the information I need about how to take care of my body is that's the responsible. It's giving you everything that you need to know so that you can make the decisions that you want to make at the right time for you. Let me just not tell you anything because that'll do it. When has that ever worked?
SPEAKER_00:No. And our doctors like supporting us and stuff like when you go in, I'm watching Gray go through this right now with her period, that she goes in and she's like, my breasts hurt all the time. I have really painful periods. I'm flooding, blah, blah, blah. And I was watching to see what her doctor was going to say, which I didn't support the appointment at all. And I was like, what's he going to say? And he said exactly what I expect. That just happens. And oral birth control. And I was like, if a doctor, like who knows, she might have a hormonal thing that would impact her fertility that she could correct right now or just be aware that it's a thing and I'm like breasts shouldn't just hurt all the time we shouldn't be flooding she shouldn't have breakthrough bleeding like she shouldn't have painful periods so like my
SPEAKER_03:niece missed school
SPEAKER_00:Tuesday
SPEAKER_03:and I was like why is she home and my mom was like oh your sister kept her home Because she had really bad cramps and this, that, and the other. And I'm like, okay, but is this the first time? Because if it's the first time of it, then okay. She was like, no, she gets really bad. I said, nope, let's stop there. Who have we called? Yeah. I can't. I can't. the idea that you're supposed to suffer.
SPEAKER_00:It's not. We start these conversations. Not that this is the solution. Y'all don't hear this, but it's a starting place. It's a starting thing. Yeah. So that we could tell these beautiful teen girls not only, you know, about consent and sexual health and all of that, but that their bodies can be flagging some of the things early and they're just aware of them. So they can take control, have autonomy, take their
SPEAKER_03:power back. I hated that feeling of powerlessness of nobody can help me. Nobody wants to help me. And I can't even help myself. And I think that's what really just has made me stick with the broken brown egg consistently is that even though I have my son, that wasn't the end because I still want to understand as much as I can. And I still want other people to understand as much as they can. And I, when I look at these younger girls and I think back to my own periods, I think, man, if somebody had just been honest with me and gone beyond just, oh, but getting your period means you'll have babies one day, but actually explaining to me what my menstrual cycle was and what to look for. And I'm learning that a lot of times it is the way that sexual health is taught rather than reproductive health but also some of our older family members and things nobody taught them
SPEAKER_00:yeah
SPEAKER_03:and so they had no idea what to tell you other than what somebody told them which is okay well here's a pad here's a tampon you choose one we don't talk about it you just tell me when you're out of them we go buy more that's not enough information A lot of information.
SPEAKER_00:And now you know about your body. There you go.
SPEAKER_03:And don't
SPEAKER_00:get
SPEAKER_03:pregnant because now you can get pregnant.
SPEAKER_00:Now you can. So let's not have that happen. So don't do it. What are some sentences that we can leave some folks having... I will call them their like protection or the conversation shutdown when we have a range of folks that might feel like they don't want to be confrontational around shutting down painful conversations or mind your business. So what are some things we can arm them with when people either ask like, so you've been married three years, are you having babies or where are your babies or why don't you just adopt or, you know, all the range of it? What are some of your favorites?
SPEAKER_03:The kind ones, right? The kind Christian ones that I did try at first are, you know, pray for us. Okay. Thank you. Keep us in your thoughts.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Keep us in your thoughts. Thank you. Sometimes I will rephrase things for people. So I will say, oh, are you saying you think I'd be a great parent? Thank you. The end. Not saying anything else to you. When I was in full smart-ass mode, when I just had it, then it was like, oh, when are we having a baby? One of my tubes unblocked. You want to help with that? Do you
SPEAKER_00:want to pay for that surgery for me?
SPEAKER_03:I don't know. Do you want to drive me? These pesky polyps and fibroids, they just keep coming back. You got any advice? Sometimes that is the way, just like getting more information than they even wanted. Like my mom lives by that. My mom actually, she's going to hate me for saying this. When my niece was out of school Tuesday, she was getting ready for Wednesday and she was going back. And we were talking, my mom, my sister and my niece about the fact that that's not an excused absence and that she has to go into. And my mom was like, you know what? When you get there, tell them, my vagina hurt. Do you want to hear about it? I was like, Mom, you can't. She's 16. You can't tell her that. She was like, no, but I think it's ridiculous. if I'm telling you that this is something medical, you should just mind your business. Yeah. Mind your business. I agree with you. Yeah. She was like, but sometimes give them more information they want so they know never to ask you again. So just be like, you know, my uterus was doing things and it was just, I had this painful, you know, situation right in the vaginal area.
SPEAKER_00:And it kind of like my rectum was spaging. Do you know that feeling? And I was bleeding profusely.
SPEAKER_03:And so, you know, she was like, if you say all of that, maybe They'll leave you alone. But if you're really, really sensitive about, you know, shutting people down, you can very compassionately tell someone I'm uncomfortable with those kinds of questions, but thank you for thinking of me. And if it was rude, you can say, you know what, I'm really uncomfortable with those kinds of questions and be done. Yeah. Don't have to say anything else. You can say, I'm really uncomfortable with those kinds of questions. And then move on to something else. If you want to get your baby advocate badge, you can say, I'm uncomfortable with those kind of questions. And it'd be nice if you not ask people things like that. That way you advocated for you and somebody else. But if you don't want to get that, you can just cut them straight at the quick. I'm uncomfortable with those kind of questions. I won't be answering them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. I like some cheeky ones too. Cause, um, you know, as a lesbian, you get asked where your baby comes from. Um, and I always like, like, like, and I take it real crass. Cause if anyone, all of you who know me, I love those crosses you can get. Um, if my wife blushes, then I know I've, I've nailed it. And, um, I like when people say things like, like, how did you come in your wife to get her pregnant? Or like those kinds of things. And like, I take it, yeah yeah yeah I like that to people who are assholes like and so if some people I I hold that back for like I I see where I can do education where I can just be a complete sentence and where I'm like I kind of want to snap back and so I always love that being like do you remember the position you came in your wife to get her pregnant or wait was it you that got your wife pregnant and then I get like real sassy I like that I love stuff like that yeah yeah I've reserved that only for a little bit because that does not help the reverberation of this planet so it's not for me but I It's rough karma. It is. But there's some
SPEAKER_03:people. Sometimes there's just somebody. There are some people that need it. Yeah. And it fixes it for the next person that they won't try that with somebody else. There's some people who just need it. And the same goes for not wanting to have children. I think that there's a lot of the same kind of rude miscalculated statements that are made to people who have chosen not to and have every right to make that choice and instead we're like but are you sure yeah because you don't know the full story this could be someone who just genuinely just decided that's not the journey for me it could also be someone who struggled for a long time and decided after much resolve that they have chosen not to do that anymore. Whatever the reason, you have no idea what you're triggering in that person. And it would just serve us all if we could do better to just be like compassionate in how we talk to one another. I just saw there was an influencer that I follow on Instagram and she was saying how she'd had a really hard time with a friend because her friend said to her one of those statements of like, are you sure you want kids? Because I am exhausted. And it's really not like you see on Instagram. It takes a lot of work. And she was just like, first of all, I'm not an idiot. I can choose. So because it's a lot of work, I don't need to do it. But you get to? Yeah, but you get to. But the comments that she got from people were just from women were like, well, that's really selfish that you felt like she couldn't say that to you. And she was just trying to vent. And when can we unload if it's not with our friends? And it's like, no, no,
SPEAKER_00:that's not unloading. That was
SPEAKER_03:in
SPEAKER_00:response to her shit. Unloading is in a vacuum.
SPEAKER_03:We have to constantly work and not wounding each other with our words and our questions. And there's sometimes where it's, it's genuine curiosity and you can feel that when it's genuine curiosity. Like there's times where my nieces have asked, like, are you going to have more kids or is it just going to be Judah? And, There's something about the gentle curiosity of them where I'll answer that. And I'll say, you know, I don't know. It was difficult for me to have him. And here's why that feels more empowering than the accusatory tone that I get from other adults. It's crazy. I love working
SPEAKER_00:with teens. There's so much more open to shit. And, and I mean, The dyads, which I mean, through my work, I've seen a dyad of pretty any combination of response and like choice and response. And so, I mean, I'd love to leave with everybody here that not only like childlessness can be something that is actually like a joy and a reward and somebody's goal, just as the grief of being childless is devastating to somebody else. And somebody can have a baby and be so happy with that choice without a TTC journey or not. And then you can also regret motherhood and, and all of them are possible. And so we cannot make these decisions and assumptions for people. Like we can't predict what's going to happen for folks. Yeah. You can't tell
SPEAKER_03:people. Oh, but cause that also happens with the fertility journey is that people do get to the quote unquote other side. And then if they're dealing with postpartum, if they're dealing with any kind of, this isn't what I expected. And relationships can be an unexpected casualty of fertility journey. And so someone who was excited at first, and then by the time they finally got to pregnancy and childbirth, they're no longer with their partner. This isn't what they expected. And so didn't throw at them. Well, isn't this what you wanted? Didn't you want a baby? I think it's really selfish and ungrateful. None of that is helpful. None of that is helpful. And in many cases, it's more harmful to that person's future than even what you see right now because there's ripples there's ripples to that that guilt and shame they've already been dealing with they don't need more of it
SPEAKER_00:so people that's not their jam you know they get in it and they're like this is not
SPEAKER_03:this was not in the brochure
SPEAKER_00:no I know and it's I mean anyone here that's listened to us or come to our classes we talk so much about separating the work of motherhood and the relationship of motherhood and the work of motherhood gums up the works. It's like... robs and is where we spend most of our time and so we can we can have idealization around the lack or you know the abundance of one or the other and um the fertility journey is one that um we could all use a little consideration around and not making any assumptions around what the experience of becoming a parent is going to be like and if it's somebody's goal or that we should minimize if it's somebody's you know life's mission um And so there's, there's a lot of room. There's a lot of room for complications that are not, that are not part of the conversation. So
SPEAKER_03:much flow of just letting each person.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Let them tell you what they need. Now you have an amazing book that came out last year. I guess now we're at 2021. Yeah. That's
SPEAKER_01:crazy.
SPEAKER_00:Almost last year, a couple of weeks off from last year. So yeah, I would love if you shared a little bit about where folks can get your book, if makes sense. And I love the putting words to the feels of infertility. It's so good.
SPEAKER_03:It's hard to put words to it. You just know how you feel. You know, you feel like it sucks. But yeah, I was attempting to make a guided journal. And then I took this class. And when I was in the class, I was like, oh, if I can make the journal, I can just write the book. And so I just kept going because there were so many things that I wanted to cover about that. history portion that gets left out. Those things that you want people to say and not say, questions to ask your doctor, things that you could be taking notes for yourself about, like, is this what I really want? Am I equating this to my self-worth? How could I be mindful in this process? How to ask questions at the doctor about other things, my blood pressure, my, is this what you do for all patients or is this what you're doing just for me? And I just want at one succinct place for all that good stuff to be. It's a fun book. It's got that historical stuff. It's also got my journey in it, but there's also fun things. I've got Sudoku and Waiting Room Bingo and places to do people watching in the fertility center, all those little things that I wish that someone had given to me. So I tell people it's on Amazon. It's only$25. You can get one for you and give one to someone else. Even if you're not dealing with fertility issues, it's eyeopening for others. My brother-in-law has read it twice. And I think that is the most adorable thing ever.
SPEAKER_00:That's some serious support. And the cover is beautiful.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, but like I've had so many people come back and are like, I didn't deal with fertility issues or my wife didn't or my partner didn't, but this helped me understand what someone else may be going through that I had never even had no concept of. And
SPEAKER_00:that,
SPEAKER_03:that meant a lot to me.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thank you for making it and creating it and being such an important voice in the fertility space. And I'm just so grateful that you're an awesome Babel Mia community person. Thank you. I
SPEAKER_03:was just honored to hang out with you guys. It's been like two, three years now that I've been
SPEAKER_00:here.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, three. Three. And I just feel... excited every time I get to be a part of the courses and every time I get to interact with you guys, because I think the work is so important, but also the community is so beautiful. Thank you. In fact, one of the classes that I helped teach, my niece, her partner, She reached out to me and she was like, oh my God, you taught the Babel Mia class I was in when they were getting married. She was like, oh my God. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So my niece's wife actually took one of you all's classes that I happened to be teaching and I hadn't. I was like,
SPEAKER_00:oh my God. That is amazing. Oh, I'm all goose bumpy. I love this community. Like the corners it touches and the magic that happens and like these collaborations that I see and I'll like see them on Instagram or wherever. And I just like my heart swells that like people finding each other and people finding people who are wanting to burn the patriarchy to the ground and find some joy and do cool shit on the planet. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's amazing. Well, if anyone wants to hear more about how you can support folks as they go through their Trying to Conceive journey... and you want to see what Babel Mia and the Broken Brown Egg can do together, you should check out our fertility specialist certificate. Yes, yes, yes. It's my favorite thing to do. And really, like, even if you don't necessarily want to work in the space, with the number of people who are running into struggles as they enter their fertility journeys, it makes you a more compassionate human and a better person. care provider um care is in like loving your friends sisters cousins neighbors etc um so as always we love talking to you and thank you for joining us oh thanks for
SPEAKER_03:having me y'all good thank you so much
SPEAKER_00:all right y'all we will talk to you all later
SPEAKER_04:bye
SPEAKER_01:Want to keep hanging out? We have created a free mindset mini course to help change makers and birth workers find bliss in their business. You're not in this alone. Let's build together. Head to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your space and a free retreat. Once again, go to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your spot. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave Podcast. podcast.
.jpg)