Hot+Brave
Hosted by birth worker and activist Bianca Sprague from bebo mia Inc (https://bebomia.com/), Hot + Brave is like a hilarious conversation with your feisty friend who doesn’t give a f*ck. Brave stories, business support, hot topics and #truthbombs that will either balm your soul or light fire to your rage.
Hot+Brave
S2 E11 Overcoming the Gap Between Expectations and Reality: How to Reclaim Joy in Motherhood
This week Bianca and Marissa chat about societal expectations around motherhood all the way from getting pregnant to the parenting experience.
They discuss the harmful idea that there is some sort of magical list of steps to follow in order to achieve the dream of a happy, peaceful, nuclear family. They also talk about the ways in which we can reclaim joy, play, connection and love in our identities as mothers and how that experience can be deeply healing and transformational.
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- Playful Parenting by Larry Cohen
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The nuclear family is a pretty failed experiment. And we can see it now with the skyrocketing divorce rates that it's just not working. And people are... not finding the happiness that we are promised on this uh picture right because it is a lot of work like raising humans is a lot of work and um it is too much work for two people it's just kind of like a societal expectation like again like when we're talking about like the natural mother and the mother instinct and everything um that that you're just going to be able to handle it it's okay it might be hard just do some self-care paint your nails like have a smoothie and then keep going you know so um this is a huge source of of disappointment and like that's that's where like if you have not fallen down from your high horse this is gonna be the moment where you're gonna be violently knocked down
SPEAKER_00:You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you will hear brave stories, hot topics, and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the balm you need for your soul.
SPEAKER_01:Hi everyone and happy Tuesday. This is a very big week with the MSP program opening on Thursday over here at Bebo Mia and our MSP program is our three-in-one doula program that gets you certified as a fertility and birth and postpartum doula. Are you the person who gets called from friends and family in a crisis? Are you wanting to have a career that feels so so good and helps the world? Do you want to gain some financial independence or freedom or get out of debt? If you answered yes, we have a community and a movement for you. This is so much more than a school and this is a place for healing and to make friends and to remember how incredible and valuable you are, just in case you forgot. With our program, we have free therapy, guest speakers, peer mentors, and you can study in English or Spanish. The stories of women and queers who have served hundreds of families, they've healed disordered eating, been featured in major magazine publications, started a doula business and then sold it for over$50,000. started podcasts, made over$5,000 a month from their doula business. These are not the exceptions. They are the majority. We have hundreds of reviews if you want to hear from them. Magic happens here. We are protecting and empowering and bringing joy back to our students and alumni. And then they get to go bring it back to all the families that they serve. And it is a ripple effect of magic. And you can join us. We have payment plans and you can go to babelmia.com to register. So if you've been curious, pause this episode like right now and go find out more and grab your spot today. We cannot wait to have you. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Hot and Brave podcast. I'm your host Bianca Sprague and today I'm joined by fan favorite and babel babe Marissa and we are going to be talking about that space between expectation and reality. And this is the space where that uncomfortable suffering and rage lives. We're going to pick a couple of the buckets that cause the most grief. Let's jump off with pregnancy and birth. Marissa, thank you for joining us firstly. Hi,
SPEAKER_03:I'm
SPEAKER_01:came out of our first, our very first Bebo Mia film club no what did we call it video club movie club movie club I'll
SPEAKER_03:get there it's a big debate y'all
SPEAKER_01:we haven't landed as a team on it but we've decided to do something around the alternating of book club and movie club so that we can hit all the different mediums that people like taking in information and today the movie was a pretty profound one when you think about the podcast topic today around that expectation and reality
SPEAKER_03:the last lost daughter
SPEAKER_01:I love this author she writes in Italian and then they translate it into a bunch of different languages and it was a book The Lost Daughter and it was Maggie Gyllenhaal's kick at the can and I think she did a really really beautiful job and it's spliced together essentially the present of childlessness of an older woman and looking back at her mom memories and I mean, they don't really show a lot of the pregnancy and birth. It's pretty much within her parenting journey as parenting too while finishing her PhD. And I just think it was a really, really great choice as we're talking about this topic as well because it showed the messy beautiful of motherhood. And I think it was really, really honest. So to plug the film first, go watch that. It's on Netflix. But Marissa, who led... Film club, movie club. What were some of your thoughts when we think about the preparation into this motherhood journey that nobody is ready for, no matter how much prep you do? Let's talk about that pregnancy and into birth as the jumping off point for the first major gap between expectation and reality.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And not to talk too much about the movie, you all should go watch it, and I'm not going to do any spoilers, but when it comes to expectations and reality, I think that they do a very interesting job about setting it up in the whole movie, where there's a bowl of fruit, for instance, and you see this beautiful bowl of fruit, and it looks so great, and then she tries to pick up a fruit, and she realizes they're all rotten.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and maggots all under
SPEAKER_03:it. Yes, yes. Yeah, and... this like gap in between expectations and reality is very harsh and for some people like it starts to hit you pretty early on some people have the fortune and this fortune of having like a very blissful and wonderful pregnancy and it doesn't prepare you quite well for what's gonna happen you know but um I think it can start even like before you get pregnant, right? Like when people are trying to get pregnant and it doesn't just happen magically, you know, like it just like we are so like told us women like our whole entire lives, like don't get pregnant yet, don't get pregnant yet. So when people start getting, trying to get pregnant and it doesn't just like happen, that can be a big shock for people. Like that can be kind of like the first like blow of reality. Then also like when we do get pregnant, it's interesting because we actually actually don't really like see it a whole bunch in society and it's until very recently was actually literally hidden like the clothes that people wear were when they were pregnant were like this like giant like circus tarps to like hide the belly and like it was considered almost like immoral to like like walk around with your big belly and like show it off to the world
SPEAKER_01:yeah because it meant you had sex it was it was all around the culture it means like for sure you got some and um i know i remember talking to my grammy about this my my paternal grandmother And that she was just like, well, you just you didn't go outside. You just you stayed in. She's very proper, wealthy woman. She was like, you just stayed in. And I was like, that's a lot of staying in. Like she had five children. And I was like, you were in medical school. Like, when did you like?
SPEAKER_03:What? How did you just stay? Oh, come on. You would love that, Bianca. Oh, yeah. You would just be like reading and making puzzles. Oh, yeah. No, I
SPEAKER_01:would love it. Five
SPEAKER_03:years of your life.
SPEAKER_01:But like there was way less convenient stuff. Like stuff didn't come to your door in the same way. You had to go out and get it. And
SPEAKER_03:it was just like this secret. Yeah, but like, I mean, until very recently, we didn't actually see pregnancy so publicly, you know. But when we do see it, I think it usually comes to like lots of like advertisement right like you gotta target the new parents and sell them stuff and if you see like ads Um, there is like, usually like this, like happy pregnant mom. Like, I don't know. I just like think of stock photos. Maybe that's like bias because I'm a birth worker and I have looked at so many stock photos of pregnant people, but you know, there will be always like beautiful hair and full makeup, like doing yoga and looking wonderful. And just kind of like, there is like a duality over there where you're like either like really just like a healthy, beautiful young mom, uh, white and straight. or you are like a depressed mom right like people that are like just kind of like not not not doing well there is like that duality so of course there is like a pressure already there that you want to be the first one you want to be like the happy one right and there's going to be like certain things that are not going to match into that but we will like take whatever of those expectations and project them into our own lives and it can be really hard especially people that are like have like quote unquote like all the things right you know if you are young and like relatively privileged and you're like you know a stable relationship and whatever like you are following the recipe you are following the formula so it can be a big shock for people when they feel sick the whole entire time when they uh get like i don't know like some sort of complication like high blood pressure gestational diabetes exactly all of those things and then people can be like really shaken uh and like that that they can start like a lot of um Like feelings of inadequacy or failure. Like it's like, oh, darn, I haven't even given birth to this baby and I'm already failing. Yeah. Being that... expectation that like that's the one that we see in the ads right and that's that's it's interesting because i think a lot of people rationally will be like well that's silly like of course you're not going to be like that like silly women that would care about that stuff uh i'm not going to be like that
SPEAKER_01:yeah but it sucks us all in no one's really immune to it i mean and even the images are of d bellies and if anyone wants to go back and listen to my interview with priyanka saju where we talk about what happens when you get a b-belly which is way more common most women on the planet would get a b-belly which is you can you can google it if you haven't seen what it is or you had one we see you and so right off the jump you don't look pregnant in the same way people don't identify you as pregnant it's more common for folks living in bigger bodies plus size bodies fat bodies whatever language you prefer and already you've got like an invisibility around your pregnancy people don't give you seats you don't get the same care um and i mean you haven't even had the baby yet and and your pregnancy experience would be completely different than somebody else like you didn't even get the glowing care which we actually need to fill our cope with the cup up with because once the baby comes out don't give a fuck about the the birther um you get like one week of a bit of extra care and then it's just business as usual and so if you've gone through your pregnancy and you didn't get that doting like oh you know like people giving up their seed and looking at you and like no your hand on your belly like all of those things out in the world you're you're already literally at a care deficit
SPEAKER_03:that's already like pregnancy like you can get a little bit of that shock but i will say i think um you can get through pregnancy sometimes um it's still in that fantasy that that it's all right. Because, you know, pregnancy, for the most part, is a sign of health. A body that is pregnant has a certain level of health that the body is able to get pregnant to begin with. So a lot of pregnancies will be uncomplicated and they will be fine. And like... and if you had an easy time getting pregnant and an easy pregnancy then you might be riding on that like little like um high horse you know you're just like oh you just need to eat more apples have you tried like you know whatever um yeah yeah yeah so like you you might still be like unconsciously perpetuating some of those things where you like see other people struggling and you're just like oh they just need to do x y and z um and like Like, that's not, like, that uncommon. And then, like...
SPEAKER_02:I love... Wait, Merce, I love your white lady voice. Have you tried more apples?
SPEAKER_01:okay so then we get to the birth so we've got these high horse yeah in marissa's mind i can see the white ladies now
SPEAKER_03:yeah birth is really interesting because like i actually have been thinking a lot about this because um within like these like writing of these like expectations that you can be perfect somehow um there are going to be different camps of people um that are going to have a different interpretation of what that uh being good quote unquote means right For some people, being good will mean that you're going to be like willingly happy. sacrificing yourself, your dignity and your humanity for the sake of your child. And that means not questioning whatsoever what you're going to be facing during birth. So if the doctor says that you need to be induced, you go ahead and get induced. Maybe that's not what you wanted, but that's what the authority is saying. And everything is for the good well-being of your baby. And that's just what it is, right? Like not questioning at all. And if the doctor says you need a cesarean, you go for the cesarean. And if your partner, like, this is crazy. I hear this a lot in Latin America where people are just like, yeah, I wanted a vaginal birth. My husband was really worried about the safety of the baby. So we decided to have a scheduled C-section because he's just safer, right? And I'm just like, what? Like, so you wanted something and your husband who like has no uterus decides that it's safer to put you in the hands of like a surgeon. And then you're just like, well, you know, I'm a good mom. I'm a good wife. And I care more about my baby than I care about my ego or my body. So therefore, I just like follow along. So that's like one camp. And sometimes people do know that there might be like some suffering or some pain, but it's very normalized. It's just kind of like, you know, and I think like I hear a lot from older generations where they will say like yeah it hurts a lot but it's all worth it at the end because you get your wonderful baby you get your baby yeah yeah yeah so like it's it's alright like you you can be like abused you can be like traumatized you can be humiliated you can be dehumanized but at the end of the day you get a reward and that is your baby and it's all good so you will forget about it you can get through these. Like almost like if it is a rite of passage. So yeah, that's one camp of people. And then there is other camp of people that feel like going ahead with this perfect, wonderful mom that they want to be is going to be actually fighting against that. Which I'm not saying is wrong to fight against that. But like the part where like we can find that gap in between expectations and reality is when people think, that if they follow like some sort of list, you know, and I think like getting a doula is kind of in that list, you know, it's like getting prenatal vitamins, check. Doing prenatal yoga, check. Buying an organic labor gown. I don't know, like I'm saying some superficial things, you know, but like some of them are profound. Like taking a childbirth education class, a very good one, check. Okay, I checked it. I got the doula, the birth worker that is supporting me. I hired the midwife. I'm not going with the medical system. I'm doing all the things, quote unquote, right. So therefore, follow the recipe. Give me my home birth or give me my autonomous birth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give me like the birth that is not going to leave me like depressed and humiliated because I did everything right. And again, that's like sometimes it works and then we can keep on riding on that high horse. And sometimes it doesn't work, right? And then that's when people start kind of like being like, oh, like why? Like what happened over here? What did I do wrong? And that's when that feeling of inadequacy or failure occurs. can trap people um into like the next stage but it just continues you guys like the horse is you're not gonna stay on the horse forever yeah
SPEAKER_01:if you've managed these first three jumps then yeah we get into the postpartum period and partnerships um but i mean i'm marissa i do i do want to um note that there are things that we can do to mitigate some of the harm. So I do like that you pointed that out, that the likelihood when you have, you know, a good childbirth ed class or you have a birth worker with you or you've done a plan that you are informed around, we can mitigate some of those first where we're not going into motherhood or parenthood with that, like, you know, we can't avoid trauma. We can't avoid risk. But we can do some things to mitigate versus this like walk into the hospital with your like hands out being like, okay, doctors, nurses, do your worst. There can be some heart space protection in there.
SPEAKER_03:Definitely. And if you have a good birth worker, part of what's going to happen is that you are going to have someone that is going to help you deal with that harshness that we can have towards ourselves, you know, so that like if things are not going according to your expectations, you are going to have someone over there supporting you. And that makes it feel so much less lonely. And like a lot of the trauma from birth comes from like not feeling seen. Yeah, the dehumanization. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not being seen, not being me. earth not being empathized with and when you have a birth worker next to you whether you end up having your wonderful birth or you end up like having plan plan c yeah randomness of birth birth is random and the body like is wonderful and beautiful but it's random um and and it it makes a big difference definitely having a birth worker but you know some people do have like these expectations that If I hire a doula, then everything's going to be fine.
SPEAKER_01:No, but it will close the gap of expectation and reality because they're, you know, that's what Marissa and I as birth workers, that's one of the things that we do is, you know, we buffer for the pivots and when the random happens and when, you know, people forget about the humanity in the space, we protect that and keep that front of mind for everyone around the birther. Yeah. So let's assume you're still on your high horse, Mazel Tov. We love that for you. Now we get to the postpartum period and... you know meg and i we laughed so hard oh my god i loved i loved recording that episode but we talked about the postpartum the bounce back or snap back um and so you can check that out on episode nine of season two i think we do talk about the various buckets of the expectation so we're keeping all of those things in mind now we we've got a couple choose your own adventures for these new parents as they go home or get off their floor with their baby wherever you you gave birth. And so one of the ones that we talk about is keeping that neoliberal prescription going around what is a good mother. And it's usually a combination of um our own reaction to our mothers like our mothers so i'm never going to do that i'm going to make sure i do that because that was really good that my that my mom did so the grandparents of this new baby um so we we have that informed we have some cultural um practices or beliefs that are informing it and then a whole fuck ton of it is media and um like how what we see about good motherhood oh man it's such a fucking terrible space because a lot of the times it doesn't even leave room for our intuition like zero room so let's talk about this like quote natural mothering which I just feel like has made attachment parenting on steroids it feels almost impossible to to engage with or to do well while preserving joy and autonomy for the parent. What are your thoughts on the natural mother, Marisa?
SPEAKER_03:I have a lot of thoughts. I remember like, I mean, so there's like that whole controversy about like mother's intuition or not. And I remember talking to my sister about it. She was doing some research. My sister always approaches this from like a lot of distance. She doesn't have kids. She doesn't want to have kids, but she's interested in learning about these things scientifically.
SPEAKER_01:You know, motherhood, the
SPEAKER_03:science of it. I just do think that there is a... a big advantage when you have a birth that is respected. Like it's just like a hormonal advantage, right? Like if your baby gets taken away from you when you give birth and you cannot see them for like, I don't know, whatever, 24 hours, like you will be like in a certain like hormonal disadvantage when it comes to like the bonding and all these different things. It doesn't mean that you're not going to be able to bond with your child, but it just means that they are like taking... A big opportunity from you. For your body to get that oxytocin. And to produce... To get the signal to produce the milk. All these different things. Like... Having a birth that is respected, having a birth where you get to do skin-to-skin after the birth and you get to hold your baby and you're getting support to get the right latch and people are just supporting you, it is going to make a difference in terms of getting all those hormonal things activated. However, hormones and biology are not... enough it's not gonna like be like oh we downloaded the software in your brain and now you get your little golden star and now you are a natural mother with like all the motherly instincts and you're gonna know exactly what to do all the time with your baby so like it's not true but it definitely can be hindered or helped by that initial postpartum and that birth experience. Relationships don't happen overnight. I think the myth of love at first sight is one of the things that I just find very problematic, and it comes with motherhood as well. So many people will be like, oh, the moment that I saw my baby, I just fell in love with him. And I understand that. what they are saying and I can to an extent like share that sentiment but that doesn't mean that you're going to know this person that you're going to know how to tend to them that you're going to know what it means when they cry in this way or when this happens or you know like there's so much to learn the only way that we are going to learn how to respond to our children is going to be through being in relationship with them and that it can happen with moms or it can happen with dads or it can happen with adoptive parents or with grandparents or with a stranger that just found a baby in the street you know like it like you can develop that relationship and you can develop that understanding of the needs of a baby and like if you are struggling to develop that it doesn't mean anything is broken with you it means that you need more support and it's so easy to just kind of Like, yeah, like blame mothers. And some of it is very emotional. Like if you're having trouble breastfeeding, for instance, or chest feeding, like feeding from your body, it can be such an emotional thing. That's like the number one thing that a newborn baby needs. Just like be fed, requirement number one, like the basic stuff. And when we are having trouble doing that, it can be very emotional. But none of these things are just like, magically going to happen overnight it's like all this like learning curve and it's gonna have some moments that are gonna be hard and there are gonna be some moments where you're gonna feel sad and there is gonna be a lot of like complicated emotions that come up with this and it's important for us to be able to make space for all of it because otherwise like so many people are like sitting over there feeling so guilty about not feeling that immediate love for their babies or not knowing what to do when the baby is like crying a whole bunch or, um, yeah, like just like feeling like there is not, uh, some magic mother instinct guiding their decisions when they have a baby.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And I think that moment too, when you're past your baby, whether that's immediately after birth, 10 minutes after birth, 24 hours after birth, um, it's another big gap for expectation and reality because we see the pictures and people crying and they're like, Oh, like this, like wonder. And I remember, um, the photo that somebody took I don't even know who must have been like a nurse or something when they passed gray to me and my face is so flat and I remember feeling so sad that I was like oh I didn't gasp I didn't cry I didn't have this moment where like you're seeing your baby and that like I could I was looping on it like I felt so much shame I felt so bad about it and then when I came home and I it's like burned in my mind like it's 16 years ago and and she was lying on the couch next to me and I was staring at her and I was like I like should I be feeling more things like I don't even know you like you're like this person and and I was holding it up against like these photos that my dad like my mom said my dad used to like lie me on the ground and he'd cut my head in his hands and he'd stare at me for hours with wonder and there's like a lot of photos of that of like my dad's like awe of me and and I I remember but my dad is a parent that I value over like holding it up for my mom my mom was like a very functional parent and I don't know. My mom's a whole podcast episode in and of herself. But like I knew my dad loved me. I think my mom tolerated me. And my dad like and so I kept being like my dad loved like what is wrong with me that I can't like cup her hands. And I remember lying in that position being like thinking it would like jumpstart this feeling because I saw the love like these grainy 1980 photos of my dad's like love and awe which is like you know whatever parent and I felt terrible about it I mean I also had um My last moments after a very long unmedicated birth was an unmedicated vaginal repair. So I was feeling really traumatized. I had an incredible, like, so much pain because they weren't numbing the area and they sewed my vulva with nothing. And then passed me my baby. And so, like you said, Marissa, I was already behind on that experience. Like, I just wanted to not be touched. I wanted everyone out of the room. Everyone was staring at me. I felt embarrassed. Like... And so then they were like, here's your baby. And I was like, somebody else take her. Like, take the baby. I can't hold the baby. And so I never felt like I could catch up. And it wasn't until I became a birth worker five minutes after this that I was like, oh, most people have closer to my reaction that they're like, oh, the baby's here. And so few people actually have this, like, gasping, sobbing, like– this this thing that we're taught like that's that's when you're you fall in love with your baby at that moment and then I felt I it was very it was very healing for me and I'm very grateful that I that I chose to become a birth worker very shortly after giving birth because I probably would have suffered for today if I hadn't watched almost 200 people be past their babies that I was like oh man so few people actually like cry and knew this like I love you and grab and they I saw them and they were beautiful and and it didn't inform even their postpartum experience it was just that moment it didn't mean anything about them as a parent it didn't mean that they were then ahead of in love in the love points like their heart meter was fuller it was just that moment that was the reaction but it was it took me it took me like seeing enough of it to hold mine up and have something else to compare it to well I want to share that story because if any of you had that and you're not a bird I mean, A, you can become one if you want to come over to be with me. But the movie thing that we see of this like falling in love moment is not an indicator of what kind of parent you're going to be. And B, it's not as common as they make us think it is.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Are you familiar with the holistic stages of birth? Yes.
UNKNOWN:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, like a WAPU. Well, I'm not gonna get super deep into it. But like, I just always think about this, because some people think like, well, it's because of the medical system, right? But like, I have like, experience and been at births where like, there was no medical care provider. and she talks about that like if you're not like interfering if like if you're giving birth in like a cabin because you're trapped like in a snowstorm and there is no one else around she says it's very it's actually very uncommon for the the moms to like give birth to the babies and like immediately put them to their chest um she talks about like people giving birth kind of like in a in a kneeling position and she says that the vast majority of people if they are just like riding like purely on like uh like mammalian like instincts they're actually gonna lay down their baby on the floor and take a moment to like come back to their body and to come back to themselves you know like you really just went through like an epic epic moment of like being the most open that you have ever been in your whole entire life like your soul needs to return to your body before you can just kind of like jump into this this next step right and I think it's interesting because even like sometimes you will see it we talk so much about the importance of skin to skin and it is super important but I think sometimes it gets exaggerated and then they like like plaster these like newborn baby into your chest when you are just not ready for it yet yeah like you're to like return to your body for a second and she's i thought that was really interesting that she says like they will just lay the baby on the ground for a second and like take a deep breath and like kind of just come back and like uh like re-ground themselves and then they like recognize the baby and the recognition moment is just going to be like uh take take some some time yeah
SPEAKER_01:and it can it can look all different ways so i hope i hope that alleviate some suffering that any of you might have had if you had something that wasn't what you expected um that that you did it just right it was perfect and it was true and it was honest and it doesn't mean anything about you as a parent um and There's so many places, like we were joking about the high horse, but there's so many places for us to fall off and then we're behind and it feels impossible to catch up with what... The train keeps rolling. You still have to keep making the lunches and registering your summer camp and put the labels in the clothes and make sure the barrettes match and whatever the thing around you, the pressure that you feel. And then we're supposed to look like we're enjoying it when really, I would say... All of us are scrambling every day, like five steps behind. Like we're like, oh, we almost got we're like five minutes behind or five steps behind. That can be very shocking for people.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And I will say, like, I don't I don't know because I don't have like so much things to compare it with. But I think like the longest you stay in the high horse, the harsher the folly is. Because honestly, in my own experience, I stayed on that high horse for quite a while because I had a really like healthy pregnancy, wonderful birth. Postpartum wasn't like so great, but I thought I was so strong and so amazing and so fantastic that I could really like get through it without so much help. And I think like even postpartum, like I kind of just like forced myself to be grateful and be happy and be like bonded for like probably like the first five or six months of my parenting journey where I was just like, I'm not sleeping that much, but it's okay because my baby's worth it. Like, I'm not... Like, I feel like I don't remember who I am, but it's okay because, you know, like, it just kind of, like, stayed over there and just kind of thinking, like, it doesn't matter. All that matters is my relationship with my baby, and I am doing great, and this is wonderful, and I am so happy. And eventually, like, I did fall down, and it was really harsh because I think what happens sometimes is, like, people are like, but why? Like, if I am following all... the things like I have like the checklist and I check all the little boxes and everything like I did everything quote-unquote right and I am eating organic and I am moving my body and I am whatever xyz like co-sleeping or whatever depending on like whoever is like the standards for every person right but like you feel like you're doing all these different things right and you're still failing because that's what it feels like nobody is failing you guys but that's how it feels like internally you do feel like why am I not able to enjoy every single second of these It feels like a failure sometimes. And it's impossible. It's like the game is rigged. The game is rigged. Like it is not sustainable. And the longest that you are trying to sustain this stuff, like the more depleted and burned out you are going to get. And then it just takes a very long time to recover from that. like so much of it like being taken away from your body
SPEAKER_01:yeah and and we talk a lot about the the two silos like the relationship of motherhood and the work of motherhood and there's so little time for the relationship of motherhood um where you're sitting and just watching your kids play and um it it it is so profound to make time for the for the relationship part like it's one of the first things we do when we go in when families aren't sleeping for example when we're like have you just watched your baby which I know it's just a gist and most sleep deprived parents want to punch us in the face because they're like oh did I just watch my baby but like we we're just inundated with the work part and that's that's also something that people like the expectation versus reality that is it's such a massive gap because we're like oh yeah like diapers and like oh yeah and this and then you don't see that it just keeps adding on and you're just buried under the workout of motherhood and you lose yourself you lose your time your time actually stops becoming yours that's one of the other like super shit rig game things is that your time is it's never yours like you're selfish if you want to just lie on the couch and read a magazine you're selfish if you just lie there while your partner cleans the house and you do the thing that they do all the time or if you're alone in the room or you want to leave without your kids just for fun not to go hands-free to the grocery store like just for fun um that you actually have to speak to all your time and resources this is something marissa and i talked about um in our episode about single motherhood that you guys this is
SPEAKER_03:something that we talk about every single time that we chat so i hope it's inevitable
SPEAKER_01:but but you don't you you don't know that part like i was actually sillily sillily yeah it's a new word um i was ridiculously contemplating another baby and it wasn't until i looked after my nieces that i was like oh my god when do i get time again um because i had to be like oh yeah show me that oh yeah okay so do you want and i I was like, fuck, I can't do this anymore. Like, no, I'm going to go do this and you can't knock on the door. Don't bother me. I'm having a shower. And so that leaves a big gap which can deplete how you're feeling. It can get the rage coming in. We can see postpartum mood disorders. And then we add a partner and their experience and competition with time and baby and all of that shit. do you want to talk about the nuclear family and the joy problems?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I think it's like interesting because we're talking about expectations and reality and there is a certain expectation that most people have that postpartum will be kind of rough, you know? For a minute. They are like, okay, well, we know about postpartum depression, we know about baby blues, but there is a certain expectation that it's going to last like, I don't know, maybe like the first few months and then everything's fine and then you get over it and like the sun is shining and you are like having a picnic with your beautiful family and your partner and like the kids are throwing a ball like in the park you know I don't know just like cooperatively playing exactly we think that that postpartum depression is like very temporary I remember I used to know this birth worker and she used to teach a childbirth education class and she always joked about this like that she would tell the parents the first few years are really hard and they would like look at her like you mean the first few months and she would be like no the first few like three or four years and they would be like what like that's not what we thought we would expect like maybe the first few weeks the first few months are gonna be hard and then we're just like um like dancing around in like la la land
SPEAKER_01:making pancakes having a laugh no one's fighting everyone's kissing over their shoulders you've had a quickie before the kids woke up and now you're all gonna go to the park together and maybe pop by the museum if it's still open for their exhibit
SPEAKER_03:exactly exactly yeah so like the nuclear family is a It's a huge source of suffering for people. We could talk about this for hours because the history of it is fascinating. First of all, it's a relatively new thing. It was not always like this. And it's still not like this in every place in the world. There are still lots of places in the world where people live with lots of extended family and the households are like 20 people and everybody's just kind of fulfilling different roles and there is not so much of the the mom and the dad and the two kids, two and a half kids. So like, this is a very new institution and it's like a pretty failed experiment. And we can see it now with like the skyrocketing divorce rates that it's just not working and people are... not finding the happiness that we are promised on this picture right because it is a lot of work like raising humans is a lot of work and it is too much work for two people and it's particularly too much work for two people when one of them is like actually not doing anything and everything just gets put on the lap of the mom and it's just kind of like a societal expectation like again like when we're talking about like the natural mother and the mother instinct and everything that you're just going to be able to handle it. It's okay. It might be hard. Just do some self-care. Paint your nails. Have a smoothie. And then keep going. This is a huge source of disappointment. If you have not fallen down from your high horse, this is going to be the moment where you're going to be violently knocked
SPEAKER_01:down. Yeah, it's a very far fall. And it's... Every time the holidays come around and I get a like... wave of of those like holiday photos from my hetero friends none of my queer friends do that um they sometimes send pictures of their kids but like the you know the holiday picture the cards and and i'm always like why are we still doing this when i know you i know what's happening behind closed doors that we're still presenting that it's fine and we're okay and like nobody's okay like nobody is okay and i always look at them and i'm like oh man this is a tough thing i know that because I sent... Well, I only did one because then I was out of there. But I sent the holiday card. It was bad behind closed doors. But I was like, we're all in a matching plaid thing and we're going to smile and we're going to send our holiday wishes to everyone. And it was bad. Like so bad. Like take your breath away bad. And so... the more that we thought it was going to be one thing and it was something very, very different. It's very, very sad in that space. It's rage filled. You feel cheated. It makes your heart really, really heavy. You, you probably scrambled to think like, what am I doing wrong? Because I've hit, I've ticked all the boxes or I might've missed a few, but this can't be the reason. And then you might think like, oh, well, I guess it is because I'm whatever, fill in the blank with which box you missed or that you learned about after the fact that you were like, oh shit, I didn't do that one.
SPEAKER_03:It's because I had a beer when I was six weeks pregnant.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that we didn't, I don't know. There's so many things that I hear when I like talk to sad women and they're like, I guess it's because of this. I guess, you know, I didn't really tell them that this was the plan or I guess I should have had my mother-in-law live there. I guess I should have had babies earlier. Or I'm
SPEAKER_03:expecting too much. That's like the one thing like we are always kind of like told, especially like in this context of the nuclear family and the hetero family. When women are unhappy, usually it's just like your expectations are just too high. Like just give your partner some grace. It's okay. It's okay if you're not perfect, but secretly it's really not okay. But we will say that. And then people feel even more inadequate because it's like, okay, so then it must be me. Like I'm just doing something wrong.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a really, really sad space. And, you know, our our season one was all about rage. We hit this from a whole bunch of different angles. We talked to Darcy Lockman, who wrote the book, All the Rage, talking about mothers, fathers and the myths of equal partnership. We talked about like the loss of abortion rights, like pick a pick an area. And there was, you know, sources of rage there that hit the preconception, pregnancy, birth and the postpartum period, as well as relationships. so we want to have some solutions for you so we don't just leave you in the super muck of now you're off your horse or you've been off your horse for a really long time and you're like this stinks because all the other things you still have to do um you know you still you still have to pack your bento lunches if that feels important marissa and i are giving you permission to no longer pack your bento lunches by the way and
SPEAKER_03:by the way i will say i also give you guys permission to pack the bento lunches because that's the one thing that like every single person is always using it as an example i i just love it i wake up so early and i like pack these beautiful lunches and my kids love them and i love it it's okay if it if it brings you joy go ahead and do it
SPEAKER_01:if it brings you joy do it if any part of the parenting thing doesn't bring you joy like just try just try i know just is like a dick word so um we we invite you to try um and see just like one day if you're like i don't want to do the thing whether it's drive to the kinder play after school or make dinner or like just just one thing just try and see how it feels um contract it out to your co-parent if you have one um Play with this. You get to change now what the expectation is, and then your reality can get a little bit closer. Okay, so let's talk about some solutions here in this gap of what we can do. I
SPEAKER_03:think one of the things that I'm recently a little obsessed with is just focusing on the actual relationship with your children. And it's not simple. Like it sounds simple, but it's actually not simple at all because it requires a lot of like filling up and like in a lot of different buckets. But basically, like we are so obsessed. in our society about like controlling our children and raising and also there's so much pressure for mothers like you know like if there is like some sort of like criminal like some horrible crime happens people will be like oh my goodness like who raised him to be this way right and there is like so much pressure that we feel internally as parents but especially as mothers to raise children that are gonna be good people And that are going to be going to be contributors to society. And that shows up with like lots of control and shame in our relationship to our children. So like, you know, right now I'm like full disclosure, I am taking a training to become a parent coach. And because changing my approach towards this really matters. brought so much more joy to my motherhood and to my relationship with my children. So I'm a little obsessed about it. So take what you can from it, right? But basically, I see so much fear in parents that if they don't correct their children's behavior. And if they don't control them and make them say please and thank you and like sit at the table and wash their hands 50 times a day or whatever, then they are raising these horrible assholes that are going to cause suffering and pain to humanity later on. So we're like attaching a lot of adult expectations to our children and that is to the cost of the relationship. So when we can just kind of first of all, learn what is normal and what is like realistic to expect from them, right? Because nowadays we have so much more science to understand these. And, you know, when we look at our parents, when we look at all the older generations, I always think like my mom did not have internet, you know? Like it's just like it was an older generation. Like if you could maybe go to a library in some places and like try to find a book written by some white dude from the 1900s that was going to give you some parenting advice that came from trying to keep like 300 orphans alive in the hospitals. Like not... actually related to the parenting experience at all so like nowadays we have so much more science we have so much more research so we can actually understand what is best for the development of our children based on like the brain science and we understand that children are like immature beings that don't have a fully developed brain that they don't have impulse control and once we kind of uh Free yourself from that expectation of being a good mother means to have a good child and the good child is the one that doesn't inconvenience adults, that doesn't make too much noise, that just does what you tell them to do right away and doesn't rock the boat. Once we let go of that, that is a huge part of it. A huge part of something that is going to bring joy back into motherhood because then you can just relax into the relationship with your children without that gigantic pressure pressure that everything that they do or say is a reflection of who you are and they are their own people and like that like that liberating yourself from that pressure makes it so that it is going to be easier to like sit on the ground like have a laugh with them and play and like make space for their emotions and it's so healing and it's so beautiful when we can make that space for our kids kids because it also comes with like making all that space for ourselves right and and you can come with like a lot of re-parenting where you just like realize there is like a certain trigger about something that your kid does and then you realize oh like this actually comes from my own experience from my own childhood and it doesn't actually have anything to do with my kid and I was this little girl this little boy this little person who did not get their needs met and felt shame around having these needs. And that's not going to change, but I can go back to that little kid as an adult that I am now, give my inner child that love, that support, and then it doesn't have to be something that you're carrying around in your parenting. Yeah. Oh, wow. That was...
SPEAKER_01:I'll go have a cry later about
SPEAKER_03:that. So I was like, I need to stop. I'm just going to keep going.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's true. And I can feel in my body that that was the robbed joy. It robbed me of joy. I missed it. I missed it. gray as a little person even though I was a single parent I was with her all the fucking time I did so much stuff prescriptively and the intention wasn't there that I was like okay made her baby food co-slept breastfed till she was four but I was like suffering every step of the way and it wasn't till later someone was like well your intention actually means more and I was like gosh darn it those are the things I fell back on and my intention was wrong so now I'm left with nothing and I missed it I missed it because um You know, I had a really, really litigious and complicated relationship with the only people around were her sperm donor's family. And they policed me and they thought I was ridiculous and everything that Gray did wrong would be like a direct reflection of me. And then that just continued out everywhere. I was on a flight with her, in the museum with her, at a restaurant with her. I just felt like everyone was like, like I was told all the time what a bad parent I was. Like, I can't believe you let her. I don't know fill in the blank like touch that I cannot believe that you let her be a human yeah let her be a human like yeah just whatever it was like she asked if she could see everybody's vulva and I remember like I got like five emails being like what kind of pervert are you raising and I was like a four-year-old that will hurt the word vulva the thing that's cool I was like I saw one I saw two I saw three I think I'd like to see six you know like these weird complicated things but it was it robs joy and I mean maybe to start as you're practicing this you can pick places that feel easier to practice it like the park is an easy place to practice it you know if I know the places that I would struggle with were the expectations that adults wouldn't be disturbed and I wish I'd avoided them more because it was too heightened for me to be like But I wanted a kid that could go to the museum and not touch anything, which she was. But it was a sign of her deep anxiety. And so that was really, really helpful, Marissa. And I think we get to rewrite our own rules sometimes. Everyone out in the world is still going to police you. So that's the part. We can't wait for that to stop happening. Everyone's going to judge you, but they're going to do it no matter what you're doing. They're going to scan what your kid looks like, what they're wearing, what your stroller looks like, what you look like, what your weight is like, if you're smoking or not, how clean you are, did you do your hair? You're getting policed no matter what. And so I think what you're saying, if I'm hearing you correctly, is... Like you get to build your bubble and rewrite the rules because the rules suck for us. The current system sucks for us. We're missing it. Like Grace is going to be 16 this year. Like I missed it.
SPEAKER_03:But I have two things to say about it. One is... it's never too late think about this like how would you feel if your mom who we could have a whole episode about actually like realized this and came back and repaired with you so like you know sometimes sometimes we we think like oh i already messed this up or i already messed this other thing or i miss this thing or i miss that other thing or i wish i had known this earlier but it's never too late like you can be a 50 year old with like a 70 year old parent and like it still would mean so much for them to empathize with you and witness you and like prioritize their loyalty to you over their loyalty to the expectations that we have like a society and I always think about that from my mentor because she says like you know there are going to be all those people judging you that think that you should control your child more Or that think that like the limits that you're setting are not the right ones or whatever. And she always says, your loyalty has to be to your relationship with your child. Like all those other people, they don't care about you. They don't care about you. They're like so fixated into like their own thing. Like it's not an important thing in your life. Like if you can prioritize your relationship with your child and your loyalty to your child, and then it's just going to bring so much more joy to the experience of motherhood. And I'm not saying... Any of this is easy because we can say it like just like, you know, when we were talking about just as a dick word, like I'm not saying like all you have to do is prioritize a relationship with your child and then everything's going to be magic. No, it is really hard. Like all this stuff is like really hard because it comes with like so much tenderness and like so many wounds can open when we give that space, right? When we like realize our triggers and we go back to them and we like see or like the places that still hurt from our own childhood it sucks it's so painful and it's so hard and it can awaken so many uncomfortable things within us but that is kind of like the gift of parenthood and why it ends up being worth it you know because it has so much possibility to like like heal you and turn you into a better person when we give it a chance and it's like what like if not the most profound like one of the most profound parts of becoming a parent and um like it's like this treasure that is in the middle of this and we miss it and we like don't see it because we are so preoccupied with all these other things all these expectations all these appearances all these mandates about like what you're supposed to be doing and how like clean your house has to be and like the kind of like organic meals that your children have to eat or the kind of academic performance that they're having so we're like so worried about all these other things that like we miss that treasure that is like right there in the middle that they're Yeah. I think as you're talking, I
SPEAKER_01:had a memory of when it shifted where I like... I would have sacrificed– well, I did. I straight sacrificed the relationship in order to make the world more comfortable to be in space with Gray. And Gray was a complicated, neurodiverse little being. And I remember it was– she was in elementary school and it was the first time that she did something– disruptive that i was proud of and it was me standing next to her and not doing the scolding that the administration wanted me to she was protesting something and i was of course she was of course she was and so and i remember um no i remember what it was she was teaching the kids what fellatio meant on a subway and it was the teacher wanted me to to shame her that she was talking he kept saying weenies and i was like gray wouldn't say weenies and she was standing behind me me and I remember pulling her in front of me like beside me to be like you we don't we're not going to embarrass her on this like if you have a problem that she was talking about fellatio then that's that's a you problem and I'll tell her that there's spaces that she could talk about it and not talk about it but like you don't get to take the seven-year-old and make her feel embarrassed about this and it like ignited something for me um that I was like oh I'm not going to make I'm not going to apologize for gray um And it actually kicked off like a pretty profound domino effect where I still missed. I still missed a lot of it because the conditions I parented in were abhorrent. But it was it was the first time that I was like, no, I'm like, I like that she did this. She used anatomical words like she informed children that should
SPEAKER_02:be
SPEAKER_01:informed. It was funny that she picked fellatio as a
SPEAKER_02:queer household.
SPEAKER_01:But like it was that. And so then after that, it became a bit easier because she was regularly disruptive, but not in the... I liked how she was disruptive, not standing for the anthem, refusing to participate in an anti-Indigenous... you know stuff happening at the school like her spoken word like I liked it that she would challenge it abolitionist behaviors like traits baby abolitionist and so I remember that feeling really helpful so if any of you can have like you know your kid my niece is bullied by her gym coach she's also probably a neurodiverse and I'm like that could be a point for her mom to be like no No, you don't get to talk about it. You don't get to treat her differently because she doesn't like standing in line with the other kids that she choose her sleeves and likes to spin instead of walk on the balance beam like that. She's doing it quote wrong. And so that might be a kickoff for any of you that the like that you that you. do the opposite like you not only don't apologize but you like protect the space for your kid that might be an easier entry point as like like a we usually need like an event or a task to like kick off the like now I'm not going to apologize for my kid so maybe that's helpful for you because I was trying to think of that change for me and I identified it as those those first moments where I liked the way gray was disruptive um
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And it's hard. Just want to emphasize because I was listening to an interview with someone and they were saying like a society we really like to pretend that parenting is easy. Ugh. Get out of here. Because it's like for the majority of times women's work. And because we are so used to minimizing and discrediting women's work, we're just like, well, it is so easy. All you have to do is X, Y, Z. It is really hard. It is really hard. All of this is like... like honestly for me like it has taken me like four years um from like the point that I realized that this was happening until the the point where I'm now at and I mean I'm also like my conditions have changed a whole bunch like I I have like a completely different scenario now than I did four years ago I have so much more time for myself um I'm like out of a relationship that was extremely toxic and and damaging to my self-esteem and like lots of different things have changed um but Like, it... took me such a long time to kind of like really craft these concepts. And I'm not perfect. Like I'm still going to make like tons of mistakes. It's not easy. And the other part, like when it comes to like appearances and expectations and everything, like I think one of the things that really helped me bring more joy into my motherhood, it was actually learning to play with my children.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I know. So envious of you being like, oh, we're playing and I'm so envious.
SPEAKER_03:But it was it was a hard lesson. You me it was very very hard to learn because it like really what it came down to is like I had to be ridiculous I had to like put myself in this like uh like situations that I was like I read this one parenting book that was really funny it's called uh playful parenting by Larry Cohen you know how people say like it takes a village to raise a child and he says it takes a village idiot to raise a child and just like being able to like be like very goofy and very silly and it's interesting because that's kind of like the role that we like give to dads you know and like the dads get like the joyful parts of parenthood the dads get to like goof around and play a little bit and then like when the kids start getting dysregulated the mom will like come in and calm them down and give them a snack and a bath and get them ready to sleep and then the dad gets to read a story to them when they're going to sleep so like you know kind of like reclaiming those pieces because some people will be like oh but I'm not good at it I don't like it so I'm not gonna force myself to do that and I'm like yeah don't force yourself but you can learn it it's not a skill that is intrinsically like not yours it's something that you can learn to do and that you're gonna find so much joy once you learn that it's as if we knew like we said like oh I'm not good at driving and I'm not gonna drive because I just don't like it and it's just like yeah but you learn it and once you learn it then you just like have that autonomy of being able to go to different places without having to ask like your partner to drive you everywhere and So like, you know, like, like if there are any pieces of parenthood that you're just like, I would love to do that thing, like go in and like try to learn it and like reclaim that and like reclaim all those like little pieces that like feel joyful to you. And don't think that anything is like not gonna like belong to you intrinsically for having that role of like being like the mom, the person that like keeps the order, the person that controls, you know, because that's kind of like the role that we're given. by society so much as women like and once like you say like actually no i'm not gonna do that and i want to do the fun parts then it just gets so much more enjoyable
SPEAKER_01:you really flip it on its head marissa can people work with you yet for parenting stuff
SPEAKER_03:I mean like I don't have like an official like website or anything but I would happily happily work with people now like while I'm like still finishing my training and everything um like I want to like specialize working with uh like motherhood and like maybe like some like uh single mothers because like I think that's a space where you know like we don't get to have so much joy as single mothers like we're expected to be like sacrificed and like and yeah like it's harder like we don't see it reflected in society or in the media or anything like the single moms are the ones that are like struggling and I want to break away from that and just be like actually we can be so joyful and we can have such beautiful relationship with our children and again not easy not gonna be like just do this but we can work on it like we're so freaking smart and capable and we are so able to like learn so many different things and we can learn this too
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Okay, great. If anyone wants to work with Marissa, man, you're magical. I love you, Marissa. If anyone wants to, you can write to us and we'll connect you. Well, actually, we'll put it in the show notes. Marissa will put it in the show notes as our podcast
SPEAKER_03:editor. I edit the podcast, so don't worry, y'all. I will find a way to put it in the show notes so that you can contact me. I
SPEAKER_01:love talking to you about this stuff. And if anyone wants to share their stories around the gaps with the expectation versus reality and if you found any solutions because as Marissa was talking I was trying to think of some of the places that felt lighter for me and some of the solutions we would love to hear from you so write to us at info at babelmia.com and share your story we we love hearing feedback from you all if while you're writing to us you want to give us a five-star review we'd love that too and yeah if you have any tips that you can that you want to share we will we will pass them on because Because we're always looking for solutions in this space. Our commitment is to bring joy back to parenting. It's what every single person on the Babelmia team wants. It's well enough that we can protect birth and have informed consent. And all of us are like, great, that's the bar. That's the baseline. That can't be as far as we go. We want joy. We spend a lot of time with our children. And if we're not physically with them, they take up our mental space. So let's make it feel lighter. And I hope that all of you took some tips today, either of being seen in the suffering gap there, as well as knowing that there is light at the end of the tunnel and we've got you. We would love to hear from you if you had some aha moments from this episode as well. Marissa, thank you so much for being a fan favorite.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And before we wrap up, I just wanted to say, like, the way that I got to all of these was through Bebo Mia. Like, it seems like, like, it might not, like, completely make sense to other people, but, like, I 100%, like, it was because I found Bebo Mia that I was able to prioritize myself, that I was able to, like, have a sense that, like, I needed to find, like, different solutions and that I learned to learn, you know, that, that I was like, okay, like if I can learn how to support people through this, I can learn how to support people through those, these other things. And I actually, when I did the infant sleep education, um, training with you guys, like a thousand million years ago, um, that was my introduction to, to like peaceful parenting and like conscious parenting. Um, because there was like so much about like understanding the brain science and it just kind of like follow like the, the clues and it took me to where i am right now so it wouldn't have been possible without bebo mia it was all part of the of the thing that's why like this program really truly transforms people's life because it just like resonates into all the different areas of your life
SPEAKER_01:oh thank you for saying that well we are not only do we want you to teach the skill or learn the skills um we want you to find community and do the healing Because all of us are going to have, like as Marissa was talking, I had all these feelings of like, oh man, I remember that. And what do I do for the repair? And if I had another kid, I would do this. Like, you know, all of that stuff. And so we want you to have the space to be held and cheered and know that it's normalized and that there's no shame in that. And we build that into all of our programs because we want anybody here that's going out and working with families and doing this really, really hard work to bring joy back for them, that you have joy in your own life as a practitioner and I'm very glad you stumbled upon Bebo Mia almost 10 years ago
SPEAKER_03:yeah it's it was a transformational experience and it continues to be
SPEAKER_01:yeah thank you so much Bianca thank you Marissa thanks everyone and we'll see you in the next episode bye bye
SPEAKER_00:want to keep hanging out with us Find out at babomia.com or head over to your favorite social media platform with the handle at babomiainc. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave podcast.
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