Hot+Brave
Hosted by birth worker and activist Bianca Sprague from bebo mia Inc (https://bebomia.com/), Hot + Brave is like a hilarious conversation with your feisty friend who doesn’t give a f*ck. Brave stories, business support, hot topics and #truthbombs that will either balm your soul or light fire to your rage.
Hot+Brave
S4 E09 - Scaffolding Your Doula Game: The Unfiltered Blueprint with Kaely Harrod
This week I had the pleasure of chatting with my gal pal Kaely Harrod and she is a flippin’ gem. She cracks me up and we wanted to go through some critical scaffolding for doulas to have success in their business. We cover everything from contracts to systems at home… you are not going to want to miss this.
As promised here are Kaely's links:
Her podcast Doula Tips & Tits
Her IG channel: www.instagram.com/harroddoula
https://harroddoulaservices.thrivecart.com/level-up-your-doula-biz-2024-hb/hb10
10% off code is HB10
⭐️ We have some links for you which are mentioned in the episode!! ⭐️
Grab your doula training spot here (heyyy there's payment plans) 📚
USE THE CODE BIRTHBIRD for the early bird special!!
NEW BIRTH DOULA COURSE - www.bebomia.com/birthdoula
Community Building Tool ONLY $10 - www.bebomia.com/community-building
Book Club: www.bebomia.com/bookclub
FREE Facebook group for doula business here
FREE Ultimate Ebook all about becoming a doula - get it here!
www.bebomia.com/doulaclub 💥 Get your free access to the Doula Business School in our club membership!
www.bebomia.com/freewebinar Free doula workshop and discount code 👍🏽
www.Instagram.com/bebomiainc Follow for more goodies!
bebomia.com/bizshop/ 😎 Grow your business fast!
www.bebomia.com/shop New Doula swag!!
7 Simple Steps to Double your Client Base 👈🏽 new course alert this week 💥 Use code SEVEN for 75% off
Our links page with lots of goodies bebomia.com/links ❤️
How to Pay for Your Doula Training <-- check it out!
www.bebomia.com
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You are listening to the Hot and Brave Podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you will hear brave stories, hot topics, and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the balm you need for your
SPEAKER_01:soul. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Hot and Brave Podcast. I'm your host, Bianca Sprague. And I am very excited about today's episode. I felt like I had more to say about my intro and I didn't. How did everyone do with daylight savings? I feel like I gained a week rather than an hour. And honestly, I am loving it. I got so much more sleep. I had a really productive day. Oh man, it's been great. And I'm so sorry if anyone's struggling with the adjustment with pets and littles and all of those things. Here's some fun updates about my personal life. This weekend, Gray toured around Dalhousie University and it gave me all the feels. I'm so proud. I can't believe that we're at the university stage. It honestly felt like both 40 years and like five minutes ago that I was wrestling her into a car seat. I know for any of you that are in the wrestling kids into a car seat phase, it's It goes really fast, but also really slow. And there's a lot of grief. As much as I was really excited about her gaining independence, I feel a lot of grief about it as we're counting down our last months of her, you know, being, you know, high school age, curfewed, all of those things. Oh man. It was lovely though. It was a really beautiful fall day and Gray got to go do... tours and lectures and be in the lab because she wants to go into biology and obviously I got proud Dalhousie mom socks. I just can't imagine wearing a t-shirt or sweatshirt that says it. So I've got myself some socks. Lots is happening over here at BWMIA. We have some fun news. Early bird registration opened today for our MSP training. So that's our maternal support practitioner training, which is our fertility, birth, and postpartum doula training all in one. This is for the March 2025 session. Use the code BIRTHBIRD, all one. Don't worry, this will be in the show notes as well. And you're going to get$350 off the training. It will work for payment plans too, so we'll just take off some even amount for all of them. I don't know, Kelly does that magic of discount codes. This week we also released a blog. It just felt like the right time and it did really well. It's blown up, so clearly y'all needed it. And it's a blog all about what to do if your client has a baby and doesn't call you you know you text them to check in on them and they're like oh by the way we had the baby because it can feel so so bad so we put together some soothing for your soul all wrapped up in practical tips for those birth doulas out there If you haven't had this happen, maybe get this just in case because we know that anytime we can bring that expectation and reality closer. I'm waving my hands in the air like y'all can see. But, you know, we want to close that gap and then we have less, you know, room for trauma and harm coming the smaller that gap is. Also, fun news, we've decided to do Black Friday this year. We've not done it for a few years. However, with the economy being what it is still this like never-ending recession we want to bring it back to break down those barriers for you all because you know access to education is key and we have so many great tools to help you build your business which is key right now so we've got you on this front so keep your eyes on the site and your inbox for more information we will be rolling that out shortly okay this week I had the pleasure of chatting with my gal pal Kaylee Harris And she is a flipping gem. unofficially since 2010. But I don't know how you can unofficially be a doula. So she only gives herself officially since 2018. I'm going to stretch it way back. She's built her business to the point of supporting hundreds of families. But she realized, as we all do along the way, that it isn't enough just to be an amazing doula. You also need to be a really good entrepreneur and CEO of your life and your business. So because of that, she's added mentoring, small business owners and doula entrepreneurs to her repertoire to help others find their clear path to a thriving doula business while avoiding doula burnout. And you know how passionate I am about protecting you from burnout. So Kaylee and I both share this love. All right, y'all. Here is our uncut, uncensored, potty mouth discussion. And I know you are going to enjoy it as much as we did recording it. Welcome. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Let's talk about some doula shit.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much for having me. It's always lovely to talk about doula shit with you. And
SPEAKER_01:one of the things that we want to talk about as two... season doulas is for those of you who are newer or maybe re-examining your doula business and making it work as we're wrapping up 2024 which I cannot believe we really want to talk about systems at home and pass on some of our pearls of wisdom to all of you so you can start planning for 2025 yeah
SPEAKER_02:And I mean, you know, one of my big soapboxes is sustainability, because I think as doulas, like I sort of, I think about it like labor, right? Like I tell clients, if you're having all these contractions that are pre-labor or Braxton Hicks, like I don't want you to have them because they're not going to bring your baby. So I'd like for you to not waste your time on those, you know, like I want you to stop walking, but yeah, like go chill, take a shower, like hang out and just let your body chill the fuck out. But if you're actually contracting, like, yeah, let's work into that, right? Let's help those be productive. And when I think about sustainability and business, I'm like, I would much rather you evaluate early on if you have the things in place and the things in your life that you need to build, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:it's hard to pour. and the fact I was gay. But that's why I left that marriage. I lasted maybe 14 months. And so I'm going to speak to being a lesbian in a hetero relationship for a minute, having a queer relationship for now, like a lesbian relationship my whole adult life, but in a single parenting kind of concept for... the division of those things. You've seen some super shit on your journey, how you even came to doula work. It was a little bit like no runway, jump in, make the shit work and have had struggles as you've gone through where you and your husband have had to get really creative. And so at times you've also been the primary breadwinner with your doula work. And I want to say that so that neither of us ever had a like, it's the cute extra money for our household. Never, ever, ever. That would be lovely. I know. Could you imagine being like, I got booked and that's just an extra$3,000 this month. No. No. So I did want to lay that out so that people understand that we didn't have the luxury of like testing and, you know, Seeing if that worked, I'm doing cute heads and shoulders. You guys can't see me, but like my head's going back and forth. We had pedal to the metal, which is not the best way to grow a business from when you're in like a frantic scarcity mode. There's way more ease and joy in a business when you are not needing it to feed you and house you. But that's our journey. Yeah. So there, I've qualified that for us. What would be your favorite, like, what do you think? Okay, no, that's not favorite. Let's start with what you think is the most important system for sustainabilities for doulas. I
SPEAKER_02:mean, I would say the number one, well, I think it depends. Like, I think we have two groups. One group is doulas who have children who are young enough, they have to have another person with them. Right. The other group is doulas who don't have someone or some animal or anything like that, that they're physically caring for. Right. Because older children. Right. Well, I'm like older children. I mean, for me right now, I have two teens and a tween and they can like be left at home for lengths of time. Right. Like they can feed themselves, you know, they're safe at home by themselves. So if there's some time that they need to be here by themselves, they can be. When I started, they were toddlers and early elementary age. They could not be home at all. Like it was not legal for them to be home. Right. And so like the need to have on call child care was I mean, I say this a lot on my own podcast, like having a partner who worked for himself and was a game changer. And I cannot imagine doing this if he had a job that was like, no, you will not leave until five o'clock or whatever, right? Because I could really be like, Oh, peace out. Like she's in labor. I got to go. And he can be like, Oh, okay. I mean, it was stressful sometimes. Right. Like not ideal all the time, but he didn't have someone else that was saying like, no, you can't leave work until five. And then I'm screwed for three hours, you know? So I think if you have small people or if you have animals that are really high needs or you're caring for a family member, that's very high need or something like that. Right. Yeah. Having someone that can be available to you 24 hours a day is for sure the hardest thing in my mind for that group of folks.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. This is where the childless by choice or by circumstance, folks, you are winning. And I know you're all so stressed about like, should I be a doula without children? You win this. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I would say this is not our topic today, but you also win in the fact that you're not bringing your own childhood or childbearing trauma to this work. There's so many reasons.
SPEAKER_01:No baggage, no comparison things, no stories to swap. Yeah. You're just holding that amazing space and getting to walk out your door. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:exactly. Exactly. I mean, I would say, so for the crowd that does not have people relying on them, right? Like I think the boundary setting is the most important thing because the doula friends I have who are, who are either single or like my husband calls it that our single years when we were married, but didn't have children.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:He's like, back when we were single, I'm like, we were definitely married during that time, right? Back when we didn't have small people overlying.
SPEAKER_01:When we were single, we were in an exclusive monogamous relationship.
SPEAKER_02:We had been together for years at that point. You know, he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. When we were single, we had no babies holding us down.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I've been the real commitment started. But I think what I've seen in almost every friend who is a doula who doesn't have either a partner or has a partner, but no kiddos or no, you know, kids or people that need to be cared for, they kind of run themselves into the ground, right? They they work way too much. And they I mean, especially if they're kind of in the same camp as us, where they're they have to make this work. Like it is often then your only income and they're like saying yes to everybody and doing overnights way too many nights in a row and that kind of stuff or doing overnights and births and literally never sleeping, you know? And so I feel like there's two camps there, but the boundary setting and having the scaffolding is still just as important on both sides,
SPEAKER_01:you know? Yeah. Do you know what I noticed? So I had my first birth This week, in a while, since moving to Nova Scotia. And I'm more in the camp like Grace 17. Yeah. I'm essentially single and childless. You're single, right? And I've noticed that I say yes to even just this client. And I'm the surrogate's doula. But I also, the intended parents were like, hey, could you stop by? And I was like, yeah, sure. I'll swing by after. Because I can. And not like, oh, no, I have the babysitter for 90 minutes. So that postpartum checkup is... She's done. And I've visited them. And like, I popped in to see how her spinning babies was going at home. Like things that my contracts before were two prenatals, birth, one postpartum. I've tripled that. I might also really like them and they're right next to my gym. So like, yeah. It feels extra easy. Easy to pop by. Easy to pop by. But I'm surprised. And I was like, I could see that if this had been my life. I mean, I started my doula practice when Gray was 10 days old. And bonkers. So I just couldn't do those things. Not advised. Yeah, don't. When you should still be in bed resting. Not as we do. But I am noticing how fast and loose I am with my time with my clients. because I can just do what I
SPEAKER_02:want.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, and I think, I mean, if this was the only thing in your business that made you money, it'd be really easy to be like, oh, now I can start like, I'll like up those hours. And I mean, there is some lovely flexibility there where you can be like, oh, I can work like crazy for the next month. And then I'll financially be able to do whatever to like make up for what, you know, like, fill like you know pay a debt or fill a hole that needs to be filled or like next month I have a ton of travel or whatever you know but also so often it just continues because we let people hire us that are due in a couple months and then we're like crap I've set myself up for this until July you know and you're like yeah you have eight months of this you know and then you're like well you And I mean, I think the folks that I have seen do that legitimately last like less than a year, you know, unless they get that reined in. Like if they do not put up some solid boundaries and hold them firm, they're like, I don't know if I can keep doing this. I'm like, yeah, you can't like this. Like this is not sustainable. And that's why you're burning out. Not because of the work, because of how you're doing this work, you know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:What are some of the places that you advise boundaries? Let's make a little list for everyone.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, I think one is with clients. Like I think what you said, you know, like how you're like, oh, I can pop by. You have the freedom to do that. But if you started saying to clients like, oh, I'll see you like all the time. I'll come by just like randomly. Yeah. then no because you're setting up expectations that you also then have to fulfill right and so having firm like this is when i'll see you and it's how long that visit goes and then like holding that firmly for yourself as well as for them is important because then you're not like giving your time away actually for free you know like you're not volunteering yourself for extra things. But if you have other people in your life that love you, or that need your care, even just emotionally, right? Like my children mostly at this point are like, when are you coming home? Because I haven't seen you in days, you know, that I'm giving time away from them as well. And so like, I'm volunteering that from them without even talking to them about it. Like, I'm not saying, okay, 11 year old daughter, like, do you want your hair done this weekend? Or is it okay if I'm like gone for an extra six hours seeing clients, you know? And so there's that piece that like, that's sort of like the uncounted cost, if you will, of this work where we're like giving of ourselves, but also like taking from the people that we actually have in our lives that we love and want to have time with,
SPEAKER_01:you know? So I would say one is packaging. Those are great points. Yeah, for sure. Your packages and your contract. Let's talk about some of the boundaries in your contract. And I know some of the topics we're going to cover. I've seen like brawls break out in doula groups when people talk about their contracts. And I want to remind everybody. how you do your business is your business and your clients are autonomous adults that are reading the contract and if they're agreeing to it then they're fine with it um and so we we keep we keep thinking like we're tricking clients with these clauses um but like some of these clauses are the only things that are going to make this sustainable so let's start with The 24-hour clause or the 18-hour clause or the seven-hour clause, whatever clause you put in it. Do you want to break that down as one of the possible boundaries in a doula business? Yeah. So
SPEAKER_02:in my mind, this kind of falls into two possibilities. One is you pay yourself well enough to have someone else come in if you've been there for a shit ton of time and you need to go home and sleep. Or... Yeah. I think something that we sort of have to figure out on our own. Like I know I have one dear friend who's a doula who has like a condition that means she needs to sleep every so many hours, right? She can't go longer than a certain amount of time. Her clients know that when they hire her. And so that means she brings like a blow up mattress, right? Like she's like legitimately just like tucking in at your birth as well, or she's calling somebody in, but she also has that set up in her contract and make sure people know that ahead of time. Before COVID, I always said like, I usually last like 18 to 24 hours and then I'll call in a backup if I need to, depending on where things are, et cetera, et cetera. But then COVID happened. And I couldn't call in a backup because in the U.S. hospitals, at least in the D.C. area, once we were allowed in, we were the only one in and we couldn't go. Even if I left, I couldn't come back as the same person. So like a long birth, I would prefer to go nap and come back myself than send a backup unless that person is unmedicated and needs like hands on all the time. Right.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_02:But a birth that I... If I leave, no one's going to be with you. I wasn't leaving. So I just learned how to get my shit together and stay for longer. Most births, I'm not there for more than 24 hours. But if I need to be, I can be. And I know that about my body. And so... I have my contract set up where I don't have a limit, but I also charge more than almost anybody else in the DC area because of that. And I tell people that like I charge this in part because I will stay with you as long as I need to. And you're not going to get charged extra because of that. Now for my team, I have a 24 hour clause because I want them to have the freedom to go home and for me to be able to pay the next person who comes. And so I think it depends entirely on what your body can handle, what kind of births you support. If you're supporting births that you're attending really early, like you're arriving with them for an induction, you've got to have some scaffolding around that. Otherwise, you're going to spend three days in that place.
SPEAKER_01:You will never go home again. And
SPEAKER_02:your hourly rate is going to be very sad. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And what I also like to highlight with contracts is you can put stuff in and they're like insurance policies and then never use it. So I always had a 24 hour clause. I would now change it to 18 because of just aging. I like can't do 24 hours or I just don't want to. I don't recover as well. Yeah. I've never used either of them. I've attended hundreds of births. I've never one time called somebody in. I've soldiered through 50, 60, 70 hour births because I was like so committed and they were unmedicated and we were like in this journey together. But- Having the option, and I know a lot of doulas can get really upset about it, being like, well, then people are going to feel like they're watched, and then people are going, you know, and you can decide that. If you know you have an under-resourced family that, like, made it work to pay your contract, then you could probably do them a solid and stick it out, and, like, not add on more. If you have somebody who, you know, is a have, relative to a have-not, and you're fading, and you know they'd have better care, and they would probably not notice$500 being tacked onto their bill to get the next person in, then you have that option of them having really solid care from the backup who they also know because you've done a great job of introducing everybody. So it's not a shock if you use this insurance policy. So I like pointing that part out because people, there's so many like naysayers about it. And I'm like, then you just don't use that clause for that family. Like, you know, or you just don't, but you can if you need to. Yeah. For sure. So I think that's one of the important clauses and boundaries that you can build right in. I mean, having a solid contract for starters in and of itself is a really great boundary. And just being like really clear about what things look like if they don't call you, inclement weather, all of those things have those boundary spots. For sure. What are some of the other places that you like?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, contract wise, I think very clear when and how or if anyone would ever get a refund is a big deal and reasons that you can terminate the contract. Now, I joke with a doula friend of mine that like all the clauses in our contracts are because of shitty clients that we've had. Yeah, that's kind of true. You know, I mean, that's like if you have an infectious disease, I decide if I come to you or not. And those are all from experiences. Yes. Because people are like, you're still coming. Right. And I'm like, no, why would I come? Like you, you have, like, we talked about this. You're currently coughing up COVID. Like I'm not coming to your space in person. Also your hospital, like in the astronaut suits. Like why, why would I come to you? Yeah. But, but things like you're abusive, right? Like in some way, my husband and I were actually talking about this this morning and, Because recently in my group, we had a client partner who was kind of an asshole, not really to the doula, but to his wife, to his partner. And we were like, this is a weird scenario for us to handle. And it was one person at a time at their house, one doula at a time. And he was like, I feel like you maybe need a clause in there that's like, if we're witnessing abuse or we're witnessing, what does that look like and how do we respond to it? And also the ability to be like, we can fire you and not work together and not give you a refund because you've been an asshole. I had a client once that first out one of the doulas on my team who was her doula and then was like, okay, we're ready for you to join us. I
SPEAKER_01:was like, no, no, no. I have a horror story. I wish I had this clause. I'm writing this down. Everybody look at this. I have an asshole.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I have it now. I'm
SPEAKER_01:adding this. Okay. So I'm going to take you guys on a journey. Let's go back 2008. Bianca is had. So this is, I'm going to guys, I'm going to actually tell the truth. So I'm going to have the story. I told my clients, I'm going to say what actually happened because we're well past this moment. Yeah. So, um, I had been up fighting because I was in a domestic violence situation, chaos, crisis, newborn, like worst situation. That stress headache, like that lacking safety. I locked my bedroom door with my baby and I turned my ringer off because this was before like you actually had to turn your phone off and on because this was like smartphones weren't a thing yet. And so I turned it off and I was like, I've set my real alarm, like lock alarm. And I was like, I'm just going to sleep for two hours because I hadn't slept and I was on call. And so, of course, in that time, the client calls. And but we had a system where you have a primary and a secondary. And so they called my secondary who we did all prenatal care together. So it wasn't like, oh, this backup who they had their name. They called her. She went to the birth. Everything was fine. I turned my phone on. a whole bunch of missed calls. Like I like panic, blah, blah, blah. So I told him I was sick because I didn't know what to do in my little 26 year old stressed out brain. I was. Yeah. And so fast forward. Yeah. They get pregnant again. So two years later and they call us back and they're like, we're pregnant and we want Bianca on the file. And so they called me to the house and they like berated me. And they were like, we need to make sure that you're not going to disappoint us again. We booked you and you didn't come, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And they did it in front of my new secondary, who's one of my staff. So since then I built Bebo Mia. We're a big organization now. We're probably the top doula group. Group in Toronto at the time. And so I was like, oh, this is like a bad look. But I was like, I'm going to teach her what it looks like. So I was like, yeah, I'm really sorry you felt disappointed by me. I promise I'll be there, blah, blah, blah. Well, didn't they just love bullying me through their pregnancy? In fact, they called me at three o'clock in the morning and they said, go to the hospital. And I waited there. And they did this to me multiple times to make sure that I was going to get there. And I'd be sitting there. fucking cold in my car in underground parking at the hospital paying$27. But I was too scared to do the, give them the false, like the false call fee that we had. Like if you go and you're not in labor and we have to go home, it's$150. But I like, and they played chicken with me like this through their whole thing. And I wished I had the asshole clause because they just tortured me. And then they tortured my postpartum team, which wasn't me. And I was like, you guys are assholes. You're rich dinguses. And if I'd had that clause, I for sure would have had the grounds to like fire them. But like people, there are people out there that will do these kinds of shitty things to people in helping and healing fields because we're considered lowly to some people. Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:our amazing work is looked down upon as service work for them. Yeah. And, um, Oh my gosh. I did that. That's terrible. I was still in my twenties. So I didn't know how to be like, you're terrible people. And I needed the money. And I was a single parent and, and they made me and I'd be fucking sitting there and I'd have a call in my, in the night supports. Cause I was a baby. I
SPEAKER_02:was going to say for your childcare. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so I'd have this, like, I got to go. And I'd just be sitting at the hospital because they were testing it to make sure I'd get there in time.
SPEAKER_02:That's so fucking awful.
UNKNOWN:I know.
SPEAKER_02:That's so
SPEAKER_01:terrible. I know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. If only I had your asshole clause. Because there's people that will do these things. And I know it's hard to imagine. But I think you're right that we always add things based on the experiences we have. Our contracts get thicker and longer and more expensive. More, just
SPEAKER_02:more.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, I think, I think a big piece of that too is like valuing yourself, right? Like I was, I was, that whole situation was playing out with the doula on my team and I was saying, okay, I'm kind of weighing, like juggling through my head because we didn't have the clock at the time. And I was like, all right, well, what do I do? Like, do I go to them instead and like take the brunt of it myself since I don't want to send my team member? I'm not sending anybody else, you know? And then security was called on them at the hospital. And I was like, yeah, I'm not, I don't have a security team. Like I'm not going and I don't have anybody I can call. I'm going to be stuck in the room with this couple, you know? And, and I was like, yeah, no. So then I'm, then I'm researching, like, is it okay to terminate a contract? Right. Can I fire them from my business? Turns out, yes, I totally can. I had to refund them their entire package costs, which is, sucks and that's why I have the contract clause now but that was how I could legally do it since I didn't have that clause in their contract and now I of course have that in everyone's contract but I still had the freedom to fire them you know but I just had to do it with a full yeah full refund which was a painful situation but but I was like I'm not like I'm not putting myself in that situation and I'm not sending any of my team members there you know no no No, because I also was telling at the time I was telling the other doula, I'm like, imagine something goes wrong, right? Like what happens? Something goes wrong in this birth. They're going to blame everybody. Like I would much rather pay you this, this chunk of money back than have you have an emergency, which they ended up having and then blame us as part of that process. No, absolutely not. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I've had births that went a little bit nuts that the dad was an active use and he was just like, getting high consistently at the hospital and then it got like chaotic and it was funny actually well that part wasn't funny that was terrible um and but but the nurse that was watching it thought I handled it really well I don't remember what I did at the time um I'm now and um and I ended up getting eight clients from she booked me and then she referred me through all her friends and she's actually like a kickoff for like one of my most robust arms of my of my like referral tree um that's From this like absolute chaotic, stressful, active use, domestic violence, hospital experience. And it worked out quite well for me. Not so much for this mom and baby, which after they got it safe and separated from that dad. But the nurse was quite impressed. So
SPEAKER_02:I
SPEAKER_01:mean, hey, tip to 28 year old Bianca.
SPEAKER_02:Our unexpected, unexpected referral sources.
SPEAKER_01:I know for sure. Yeah. The contracts is a lot of place and, and yeah. But we also have to have boundaries with the people in our lives. Yes. So we've got boundaries, their clients boundary through our contracts. Let's bring it into the, into the home, the home life situation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, and yeah, this, again, I'm very much the person that's like, it looks different for everyone, which is, which is true. You know, the thing is that it needs to, it needs to work. That's what it means. It doesn't need to look like it looks for me or for you or for an individual person. It needs to work well. So for us, what it usually looks like, we currently live in DC. We have our single car family. And our kids can take public transit, but the middle schoolers, we have two middle schoolers and a high schooler. And the middle schoolers, we don't feel great about sending them all the way to middle school by themselves on public transit because it's kind of a lot of transfers and whatnot. And so if I take the car to a berth, they have to leave almost an hour earlier to get to the metro in time. And so it changes their day a lot. So a big thing that we do is either my husband will take me and drop me at a birth or I will take a Lyft or an Uber unless it's a birth that's like way far out. Like I sometimes go to this lovely birth center like an hour away. When I go there, I don't lift or Uber because it's like a hundred and something dollars. So I just can't swallow.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, each way.
SPEAKER_02:But then my family knows like, okay, this is the one that's out at the birth center. So when this person goes into labor, I'm going to have the car and they hate it, right? Like the kids, especially, they'll just be like, oh, the person went into labor.
SPEAKER_01:Why couldn't it be Saturday?
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. But also like my husband is willing to just be like, okay, great. Like you go do your thing. We got this. And I don't have to do anything. Like I have to do zero prep for the house. I have to do zero prep for the kids. I do not have to think about food for them. Like nothing. There have been a few times where I was about to do like a big online grocery shopping or something that I'll do that and send it to the house because I was like working on it on my phone. But I can also be like, hey, babe, we have nothing for dinner. And he's like, okay, great. Like, we got it. Even if he's on the train. He's like, yeah, I'll go to Trader Joe's after I drop the kids off. Like, and it's a lot of work for him, but he's willing to do it. And at this point, all of my kids love that I do something that I love and love that I work for myself. And so, you know, there are times where babies group up that they're just like, oh my God, please tell me no one else is due. You know what I'm like, sorry. They're like, you have been gone for five days straight You know, I'm like, I know. I'm so sorry. But I also get home and sometimes I feel shitty. Like I want to hang out with you guys. I've been gone so long. And my husband's like, go to sleep. Like you're gonna, you're gonna like hang out with us for 44 minutes and then you're gonna fizzle.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And it won't be fun anymore. Like
SPEAKER_02:you're falling asleep at the table. Like go to bed. So I also know that I can be like completely free of guilt in that scenario and be like, I love you guys so much or call him and be like, Hey, I know it's 1130, but the baby came and I need you to come back and get
SPEAKER_03:me.
SPEAKER_02:And he's like, all right, I'm coming. I'll be there in 45 minutes, you know? And so that like, I have not only the logistics of not having to deal with that, but also I know that I have the support from them. So they don't mind. Like there's times where it is annoying or they're like frustrated, you know, but I never come home with them then treating me like shit because I've been gone. you know, or like getting back at me for having to like, all of a sudden drop, like, he's never like, well, I missed seven meetings. Cause you had a bit, I mean, it's not that kind of childish ridiculousness, you know, which I think is vital. And it less, I think that's more important than like, what do you do with your partner to set that up? Like, do you have a partner who's willing to do that? That's the most important piece in my mind. And then the logistics can be set up, you know?
SPEAKER_01:But because you both see that it's both your work, it's both your home, it's both your children. So when I had a husband, oh my God, that's so funny to say. When I was straight for two years, I... I can paint my picture. And if anybody wants like a 90 minute deep dive of how much easier it is single parenting over having a shitty partner, there's an episode in season one that Marissa and I talk about how much easier our lives went when we left our husbands. But when I used to have to go to birth, when I would go to birth and I was busy, like I was five to six a month. So like full, full time birth to birth with a baby. And so I, Right. Right. But even if you guys are like, oh, my husband isn't abusive, when you have to negotiate for your time or you have to do all this prep for children you share together, he's not looking good. And so if you're finding that they can't competently know where clothes are, that if they don't know what the bedtime routine, like you might need to either invite them to get comfortable with how your house runs. And if they're not interested, It's a good indicator of that. It's probably going to be very hard to do this work because not that I'm telling you to leave your husband, but like, you know, you might consider it, but like the tragedy of heterosexuality. But like, honestly, when I left, I would hire somebody. Yeah. my landlord was a slumlord but it meant I had rooms so I actually had doulas that they stayed at my house with their children because then any of us could leave and we knew somebody would be there and it worked out it was such a cool community setup I know right it was like the best that was the best part of my career of like forever. It was like a really warm and fuzzy time for me. And I really loved it. And, and I didn't have to have those stressful texts of like, how much longer do you think it's going to be? And those texts, I remember thinking, like, I'd get them, I'd get them at like 630 in the morning being like, how much longer because I have to leave for work at nine, and my client would be seven centimeters. And I'm like, I, I don't know what to do. And they're like, I told you, I have to leave at nine. And and that kind of feeling of like, I'm texting seeing my friends and smartphones weren't effective. Like I had to leave the room because there was no signal in the hospital. Like this is back in the early mid 2000s. And so like, it was so stressful, but I listened to my students share these same stories that they're like, you know, he gets really upset. He doesn't like that. He doesn't know when I'm going to be home. He doesn't know how things go. He doesn't know how to get the kids to school or daycare or whatever it is. And so real talk, like you've got some very big conflicting pieces that you want to lay out which is a career as a birth worker and a partner who doesn't show up in any kind of equity just with their basic maintenance, let alone the journey of being the partner of a birth worker. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:yeah. Well, and before we hit record, one thing that you said was like, do you like this work or your partner? Which one?
SPEAKER_01:Pick one. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's a legitimate choice, right? And I mean, I do want to say, There are shitty partners in all sorts of marital arrangements and partnerships. So it's not only men that are assholes, but for the journey that we're talking about, it's been men. So that's why we're discussing that. But also, I think if, I mean, there are scenarios in which you have limits on the support that you have, and then you really do have to be serious about questioning if you can do this work on call. Now that doesn't mean you can't do any of this work, right? There are some parts of this work that's not on call. That's not get up at two in the morning and stay for God knows how long at a birth. And so that piece might be the piece that you cannot do or that you have to have a lot of like boundaries around, right? But also like, you you need to not live in a fantasy that you can do that if you do not actually have the support to do that right because really if you have children especially they're the ones that are going to suffer like they're home with the asshole partner who like doesn't know how to take care of them or doesn't want to be taken care of them and the resents the fact that they're taking care of them Where, like, I always knew, like, my daughter is super pissed that I'm still gone, but my husband is managing that. And he's not adding to it, right? He's not, like, also super pissed that I'm still gone, you know? And part of that is back to boundary setting where I'm, like, if a baby comes during graduation, I'm going to graduation and a backup is going to the birth, right? So... That kind of stuff too, where like if you miss your kid's birthday every year, you need to have that in your contract that you don't go to births on your kid's birthday. And if it's your kid's birthday, you have someone lined up to be a backup for you. Like that's a boundary that needs to happen so people don't hate you,
SPEAKER_01:right? Yeah. I have swipe copy that gives you the script. I have swipe copy. It's free on the website. That's like, what do you say when you don't want to miss the wedding? Like the whole start to finish. Pro tip, don't tell them what it's for. Just tell them you have a backup. And there are systems that you can put in place. So both my backup and I had, we lived in domestic violence simultaneously, but we, she couldn't leave in the day. And I, no, sorry. She, yeah, that's right. I could do days and she could do nights. And so... we just did our contract that we, like we would cycle through. And so if somebody like at, at the 11th and they just knew, and our clients actually really liked it because we each had a partner that found one or the other intolerable. And so we, That worked out really well for us. And that might be the case if you live with a visible or invisible disability, you're on a medication cycle, like, you know, those, you can set up a scaffold with that. We also in our MSP program, I know it sounds like a plug, it's not. But we talk about the like, I think we have a list of 47 other things you can do with your doula certification that's not on call work. Yeah. And we go through like all these really robust things. birthy businesses that are amazing. And that does not you don't have to be up at two o'clock in the morning.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think like, you know, also figuring out for yourself, but for your children, for your family, like for all of those people, like what, what are the things that you need to have boundaries around? Take some time. And so this is where like, Your business is your business. And ideally, you have some time to be like, oh, well, now that I've done that, I know that I'd rather not do that again. That's how I know I need overnight care with postpartum
SPEAKER_01:clients. Me too. Get out of here. And there's people that live for
SPEAKER_02:it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There are people on my team that that's all they do. And I did it with this one the first time I ever did it. It was like an emergency. They need someone tonight. And they, you know, their other doula can start in a few days and whatever. And I was just like, yeah, sure. It sounds great. And it's like a decent amount of money all at once. That baby was so fussy. And I was like, you know what I didn't anticipate is that my parenting was like curl up in bed with this kid with my boob. And then I was just like, what the fuck am I supposed to do with you all night? Like, I have nothing to give you that you want. Like, I can't just get in with you. I can't give you my boobs. I can't go sleep with you. Like, I'm so tired. I'm so tired. The whole house is dark. So it's not at all the same. I have no adrenaline like at a birth, you know, I was just like, never again.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I've done like maybe four and they've all been because my team couldn't make it like I was not the choice and I got there I mean I teach people how to do overnights like it's not the course and so I can theoretical slay an overnight reality and I also have the good girl thing in me that I like I'm learning this I tried I tried really hard at my last birth but that I don't always have to be working to show that like I'm worth that$3,700 for my doula package yeah and so I could never stop moving like I never sit at my birth I'm like cleaning tidy cook Like I never stop. And so I, overnights, a lot of the doulas I know they sleep and I like couldn't even fathom sleeping because then I'm not working. I could be doing light laundry and quiet tidying. And so I did that. And I was like, this is bonkers. 3am knowing you're only like halfway there. It's
SPEAKER_02:terrible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And if anybody wants to do that. go yeah that sounds great for you I
SPEAKER_02:mean and I have friends who are like I love that work because I know like on Tuesday I'm gonna be up all night with that baby and so Monday I sleep a whole bunch and I'm like okay great they're like at least it's not a surprise right like your side of it is like surprise someone's in labor and you're like oh shit I haven't slept all day And I'm like, oh yeah, no, that does suck.
SPEAKER_01:That does, yeah. But I still choose it. I mean, but honestly, you guys, you can have a very lucrative overnight business because the going rate is between two and 400 a night. And so, and if you're-
SPEAKER_02:Oh, no,$2,400 a night. Yes, not an hour. I was like, wait a second.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, a night. Oh, my God. I would super sign up. I'll be as tired as you want me to be. No,$2,400 a night. And if there's multiples, it goes up from there. So, I mean, I know that if that works because then your husband or your partner or your significant other is at home with your children and you're working through that slot, and if you do four of those in a night, you're making anywhere from– like by the end of the month, you've made five to$6,000. If that was math was right. It felt right.
SPEAKER_02:I'm so impressed that you're trying to do this math on the fly.
SPEAKER_01:Lots of money. I know. Like depends if you made, if you, okay, if you did four, let's go the high end for their 400 a night. Let's say you did four. That's 1600. That's 6,400 bucks at the end of the month for sleeping time. And some babies are, do sleep the whole time and you can sleep um you just have to make sure you unlearn your worthiness being tied to work which I have not yet in my 44 years of life but other people are fucking cool with it they like bring a pillow I left like the the they had um around the clock care one of these clients and I had to fill in and their overnight doula was leaving who worked for me but only like to fill in for giant contracts and she had like a full like duvet and pillow like she went to bed and I was like
SPEAKER_03:what
SPEAKER_01:yeah I like bring my book and I sit cold on the couch and like come on come on Sprague stay awake do some more work um but yeah so you know you could make between four and four yeah four thousand six thousand a month in the night time Yeah. Totally.
SPEAKER_02:Right. But also, I mean, going back to like, if you have a partner that can handle the nights and your kiddos are sleeping or you don't have kids. Right. And that makes it work like workable for you. That's a way to do this work. You know, also, I mean, I know tons of doulas that do daytime care between 10 and two or nine and three, like depending on the school hours of their kiddos. And that's like, you know, they do drop off. They do daytime care. They do pick up and that's their work. And again, you can make that work. I mean, I also very firmly am like, if this is your full-time job, you need more than one stream of it. So maybe don't only do that. But still, you don't have to be on call. That's not the thing. And that's the least sustainable part of this job. So if you are a doula that does birth and other things, eventually being on call for births is going to have to be a smaller percentage of your business revenue and your time Yeah. Yeah. for
SPEAKER_01:sure and you could set up a whole beautiful six seven figure digital business if you want call me I'll help you set it up but like that's also very very possible or having all of the above as we're saying multiple streams are real nice and it gives some flexibility because who knows when weird shit like a pandemic is going to hit again and you've got other things to fall back on yeah exactly oh god I'm so sorry for everybody who has a shitty partner Yeah. It sucks. Yeah. It's super sucks. It's like bleeds into so many areas of your life of suck. Yeah. It takes over everything. Truly. Yeah. Yeah. And, and we have the research on this cause I know we're all nerds and we like some evidence that people think it's your children. That is why your business is going to fail. It's not. Yeah. The Harvard Business Review released studies, I don't know, I'm going to say 2014, and that husbands are the number one reason why women in entrepreneurship, their business fails.
UNKNOWN:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:I'll just leave that for you, hetero folks. You're welcome. On that note. On that note.
SPEAKER_02:All girls can be single and lesbian.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, single and or lesbians or have a wildly, wildly supportive partner that sees your business and your work time as important and not like they think you can do meetings with a kid on your lap or their home. Oh my God, the number of people either on my team or that I work with or that both book consult. Like, like for people that do consult or like business consulting with me, it's a couple hundred bucks an hour. And I'm like, can you put your baby somewhere else? Like I'm, I'm super here for it. Cause kid businesses, but like, I bet you'll get more value out of this. And I see there's a man walking in the background. Do you think they could take the babies so that we could do this thing that you've paid for with me?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Like, Bunkers. So you're for sure, your foundation has to include that this work matters. This work is important. The same way you wouldn't drop your kid at your partner's office, classrooms, OR, side of the road, plumbing site, like whatever the heck business that they do, that you wouldn't drop your baby or the laundry or groceries or food to be cut. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:that those things are separate.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And all valued.
SPEAKER_02:And I mean, I think also it's worth saying that like, there are different seasons of this, right? So you're in parenting. If we're, I mean, I know a lot of this conversation is around having kids and needing scaffolding around those kids having care, but also like, you know, the kids change and what kind of care they need from you. And like, you know, the age of my children is, all of their discussion with me is at like 9 30 PM when they're already supposed to be in bed. Like that's where they, that's when they're like come alive, you know? And they're just like, I have 27 life problems. And I'm like, what have we been doing all day? Like when I was like, how are you? And you're like, fine. How
SPEAKER_01:was school? How did your test go? How, how did that work? Did you end up talking to your friend about yesterday? What happened? Did you make plans for the weekend? Do you know if you're going to accept that thing? Yeah, no. No, 9.30 to
SPEAKER_02:9.45. I just haven't seen you all day. I'm like, I've been here. Like, you haven't seen me because you don't want to see me.
SPEAKER_01:That quote is the same. Oh, I just thought it was great because she's so high needs in that way. But she's always like, I haven't even spent any time with you. And I was like, dude, you're my only roommate now. We're just literally, we did things, we walked the dog, we cooked together, we did dishes together, we ate together. You and me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. And then you're like, no, it's not. It's something about the teenage years. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but that means like my kiddos during the day, right? Like I'll text them. If I go to a birth in the middle of the night, I'll text them like, have a great day at school. I love you guys. And they're like, okay.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:great thanks guys like if I'm gone for like a day and a half they might text me like god are you ever coming back you know or my daughter will be like how many centimeters even is she eight she's like oh she hasn't even started pushing I'm like oh my god so I mean so there's a difference right we're like when she was really little I started this work she was like And she had no concept. So she would be pissed at me for days afterwards. Cause she would be like, you left, you never came back. Like you didn't tell me you were leaving, you know? And I would just be like in trouble with her for so long. But at that point she also like slept half the night in our bed. And so she'd be like, come into bed and be like, where is mommy? Like, how dare you? Shafted, shafted again. Yeah. And she even told me at one point, she was probably like five or six. She's like, you just want to hang out with your clients. You don't even like us. So, I mean, this is something that you, if you're listening to this and you're saying to yourself, like, oh, I have a baby that's like eating from my body still, or like sleeps with me, needs me here at nighttime. then maybe you are doing daytime work with families until that shifts. I started this on-call life after I had weaned her and she was mostly not sleeping with me in my bed. And so then I had the, like that logistical piece taken away that I didn't have anyone relying on me for actual food from my body, right? That my body would be gone and they would still eat. But that was a really like short-lived time. I mean, it felt like forever. Right. Right. Right. That's part of the beauty of working for yourself is you can do that. You can say like, okay, now my kid is older. And so therefore I'm only going to do this kind of work or I'm shifting away from that thing that I don't really like, but worked for me for a while, you know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think that's very true. I remember when Gray, when Gray was... She had to be about like three or four. I might have shared this on the podcast, so bear with me, y'all. But Dr. Sears was coming to do a talk for the Babel Mia students. And so we had booked this state, like this, I said stadium, no, but this like auditorium. Football stadium. Yeah, football stadium. When we filled fucking GM place.
UNKNOWN:No.
SPEAKER_01:Back when we had
SPEAKER_02:millions of
SPEAKER_01:people. Yeah, when I was a millionaire for Dr. Sears, when we were hungry to see that So anyway, we had hired postpartum doulas. And so the parents could drop off their children and watch Dr. Sears do this talk. And so I was bringing Gray. And I don't know how it worked out because I would have done like a ton of births by this time. But she always had care, like chosen family time. like like a pretty small group that had rotated through and it worked out stressful for me and pretty terrible but like had mostly worked out so anyway we're driving and i'm prepping her like so gray we're gonna go to this place it's an auditorium um you're going to go to this room with children and they're going to take care of you. And you're going to know a lot of the people cause they're like mommy's doulas. Um, so they're babel Mia postpartum doulas, but they're going to take care of you. And so I'm like getting her ready and she's sitting in her car seat in the back. Yeah. She must've been well three. And she like was attached to me all the time. She was still like full-time breastfeeding, like slept with me. I wore her on my back all the time. Like she was like real fucking clingy. And so we're driving. So I'm like really like getting her ready. And she's like, um, So you're dropping me at an orphanage. And I was like, no, I will be getting you after. Like, no, it's not. It's called daycare. And lots of children go to this. And it's not even daycare. It's like parent drop off babysitting for two
SPEAKER_03:hours.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but I don't have to stay in there with you. Like you're supposed to be able to leave your child at the ball pit in Ikea with the buzzer. But oh no, I had to stay and watch. And so she was like, what is this, an orphanage? And I was like, it is not an orphanage. Yes, that's exactly right. Dramatic. I'm coming home. You'll be coming back with me. I'm just doing a talk in the daytime. You have to come and do this thing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, man. See, I also have to know the type of kid you have.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, if you have a spicy child.
UNKNOWN:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:No, my 11-year-old Emerus is very similar to that. And she was probably like five-ish. And I left her a note on the fridge because she would get so pissed at me. And I'd be like, it was hours. I'm like, there's 24 hours you can check off. And I'll for sure be back before you get to the bottom of it. A famous last words, right? And so she checked this off. I bet that didn't happen. I bet
SPEAKER_01:you were gone longer. You liar, liar.
SPEAKER_02:I got home from that birth at like 27 hours. And my husband was just like, what did you do? He's like, the last three hours have been absolute hell. And Amherst was just like, everything's a lie. You lie. It's all terrible. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I was like, I had, I had backup lined up where I was like, okay, at 24 hours, I'm going to leave. Like, I'm going to leave around 23. I'll be home. And then I couldn't call them. And I was like, fuck. I was like, I'm really sorry.
SPEAKER_01:Break up the boxes. He
SPEAKER_02:was so mad. And he was like, do not ever. I was like, I'm so sorry. I thought it would help. I thought it was going to be good.
SPEAKER_01:I love the direction you went in that and it just failed. Of course. It could have been so good. Mom's dead. That's the only reason. Yes. For the high anxiety children. Yeah. Yeah.
UNKNOWN:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. Oh, never coming home. This is it. I know it would happen one day. It would desert me.
SPEAKER_01:She's gone forever. Oh, see everybody. It's fun being a doula with children, childless doulas by choice or by circumstance. Take this in. Right. You don't have to deal with an angry
SPEAKER_02:four-year-old that
SPEAKER_01:thinks they're going to an orphanage. Or that their mom is dead because they tick 24 boxes and she's still not home.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And she's not home. And then she gets home and wants to sleep. So super selfish.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I know. What a bad bum. Oh, that's another one of the things y'all to do like our quick, our rapid fire wrap up of other boundary things. Please build in your self care. Please build in like your fee is has to include your therapy, your chiropractor, your massage therapy. Yeah. Like maybe getting a babysitter so you can sleep in the day like it's not if you it's not reasonable again we've done it do as we say not as we do but coming home when you have littles at home and your partner's like or you don't have a partner um or they have to go like they're like hey now I gotta go to the office or wherever they work um and you are then into like parenting um the number of times I'd be like are you sure you don't want to watch a movie no I want to go to the park oh yeah are you sure sure, we can curl up here. I guess sleep
SPEAKER_02:survives you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And so you might have kids where you can do that. There's not a lot of kids like that, but you have them. Cool. But you have to have some kind of system that you sleep because you just finished work. You can't now go into your unpaid labor shifts.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Cause we're not even talking the second shift at this point. We're talking like the sixth shift, especially if you've been out for 24 hours.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, and I mean, we, you know, part of why we both kind of preach this message is because we know the life of not having these things built in. Right. And so, so like not having the margins, not having the, like, you know, the support, not having the care that you need for your own body is, is really, really hard. What we want for you is to not have such a hard road as we have had. Like that is our desire for you, right? And if right now you're listening to this thinking like, yeah, I currently can't afford like a lot of self-care, start small, like do some stretches. When you get home from every single birth, journal or do like a voice note where act like you're telling someone the birth story. So you're processing, right? Like do something, right? Have a bath or shower. Yes. And then consider raising your prices so you can do like a massage or a chiropractor or maybe it's one or the other. Maybe it's every other month, right? Like some people can do it after every birth. Not every doula can afford that. And that's okay if that is currently you. But that is where we want you to get to because that is how you sustain this work is actually supporting your physical body in doing this work. And that looks different for all of us, you know, but yeah, but it is something that I think needs to be, it needs to be on the list of like, when I get a little bit bigger, I need to build this in. And if you can do it today, do it today, you know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that's good advice. And us older doulas, we paved the way of like, normalizing doula care and now people like back when I was a baby doula people were like a what what's this word and nobody had heard of it and so we've paved the way for you did now actually create like a powerful business around this because people are shopping for their doula and so we had to like eat shit and and not have asshole clauses and be there for 30 hours and like you know do this work for$600 I I mean, I never did, but that kind of, that vibe. And now it's, you know, it's a robust industry that is expected to double over the next, what is the forecast, seven years, I think. And so it's turning into something that people are used to, like shopping the way you would shop for a lawyer. And you can have these kind of like, Big clit energy around the work that you're doing because it's valuable work and it's hard work and it has to be sustainable for you. And there's creative ways while you're in process. So like we were talking about the chiropractic, if you're referring chiropractic care to your clients, you can also set something up that like every three people you refer that they give you free adjustments. And so that you can have free massages, free adjustments because you're sending them a referral system because yeah, like I, it took me way too long to figure that out. And I'm a connector. Like I refer people, I connect people. And I was like, Oh, all my clients go get massages and Cairo from these same practitioners. Give me some, give me some care. And that's a really reasonable barter system. So, you know, once you've supported those people who have gone massages at their birth, you come back around and you get care after that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think that like a barter system in that way is also very sustainable for the massage therapist, right? Like I have a massage therapist here in DC that I've done some business strategy stuff with her. And like podcasts starting, you know, like those kinds of visits that would be like a couple hundred bucks. And then she's like, can I pay you in massages? And I'm like, absolutely. And I am for sure winning in this. But like that, that is more sustainable for both of us, right? Because she's like, I know I can do this thing. I can put you on my book. And then can you help me think through this business thing that you're already doing that I would like to add? And I'm like, yeah, 100 percent. Like any time we could do this monthly, if you'd like.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we'll do a check in for your business, check in for my body. You can get very creative with these things. You're going to have to. That's the nature of everything. you know women and queers in helping and healing fields is we do have to get creative until people see value in care work um yeah and yeah um but you know having I know we went through a ton of tips for you all um but like really exploring where you can plug some of the holes that are just like they end up being holes in the bottom of your bucket of time resources heart space um and all of those lead to like a decrease in sustainability when we're kind of leaking, hemorrhaging resources. So quick recap, we want to make sure that you set up your home life, you know, reflect on your partnership arrangement. Heck, some of this might actually improve your relationship because your partner now has to learn about the home that you share and the children and pets that you share because they're both of yours equally. Yeah, yeah. So there's that. You'll have to work out like setting up your family systems so conversations with your partner other community members boundaries with your clients really making sure that the systems that are in place are sustainable and then that contract have one go through it make it make sense for you protect yourself yeah it's a great insurance policy
SPEAKER_02:yeah yeah absolutely
SPEAKER_01:yeah We went on a journey, everyone.
SPEAKER_02:Duel-a-shit part two coming later.
SPEAKER_01:Duel-a-shit, yeah. We are taking requests if anybody wants us to unpack our combined many, many years of dueling all of our mistakes. Do you know what I've always dreamed about? Okay, you guys can write in and let us know if you care about this enough. But I think it would be fun to have some doula children. Like we just like give them the mic and have them round table doula's kids like without us I
SPEAKER_02:have an episode like that my daughter I know I know I'm sorry it's called advice from a doula kid or something like that but she like gave her top 10 tips yeah it was it was like a year and a half ago now um yeah she one of her tips was partners need good food it was tips for pregnant folks and I we can do one of like towards doulas right but she was like partners are sometimes really weak and so they need food I was like you're not wrong it was like while you're watching your other partner literally give birth to your baby you need a snack I love just like obviously the person in labor needs to eat but also partner like sometimes are super weak. I'm like, uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Oh my God. When I first started, she drew a picture of someone standing on a bed, delivering a baby. And when I asked her about it, there was like a bed person standing baby coming out. Right. And two other people by the side. And I was like, who are these two people? And she was like, well, you, the doula and the partner, just like watching in awe as this person stands on the bed and delivers. And I was like, I mean, I'm not mad about this. Just
SPEAKER_01:standing like a star as his baby falls out onto the bed. We're just like smiling in the corner.
SPEAKER_02:I was like, that's exactly how I do my work. That makes sense why you get mad at me if you think I'm just like chilling in the corner watching.
SPEAKER_01:Watching, watching like a long, boring movie.
SPEAKER_02:Just observing the birth
SPEAKER_01:process. They pay me to just sit on a chair and watch. Oh man, that's really funny.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so we can do a new version of that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and we'll round up some, we're taking requests, so anybody wants to put their kid in the ring. We've got older kids, so they'll wrangle, but I think it would be fun to have a cross-age round table. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:totally. My boys are not interested. I can already tell you.
SPEAKER_01:Fine. Okay, great. We'll keep this feminization of care going, and we'll have our daughters speak on behalf of carers.
UNKNOWN:Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Not at all surprised by that. And if you guys are like, please don't, please don't also send that in. And we won't, we won't make that an episode for either of our podcasts. If you're like, we will never listen to your children ramble and be like, cool, cool, cool,
SPEAKER_02:cool. Okay, great. All right, then we'll just do that privately for ourselves.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it'll be cute. And we'll talk about it a lot. And you won't actually hear the original. We'll love it alone. We'll love it alone. What do you have happening that you, anything you want to share with the community? What you got?
SPEAKER_02:I have a new workshop. I did it last year, but I only invited my newsletter list. And so I kept it kind of small-ish.
SPEAKER_03:Disculpe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But now it's open to the wider public. It's a like wrap up 2024 plan for 2025 workshop. Because I think sometimes in doula work, we suck at strategy. I mean, And a lot of times we suck at strategy, but we also suck at being like, how much money is that thing actually making me that I hate doing? Like, should I just stop doing it or should I do it more? I love it. And it actually is making some revenue, you know? And so that's happening December 6th at noon. There is a small fee associated. So it's$37, but that is because I'm keeping it small and we're like actually workshopping your real numbers. So there'll be like a worksheet that comes with it and all of that. So I'll give you the link and your people can get a 10% discount if you'd like.
SPEAKER_01:Ooh, yeah. We'll drop that in the show notes. Guys, it's so great having someone else, listeners, this goes to you, to have somebody else put eyes on it and to just like really break down the things you like doing and don't like doing. I dropped my newsletter last week and I feel so light and I'm doing great. Bianca's five things of the week on Fridays. So five things Fridays. And I'm just going to like... Tell you five things that I want to tell you. Why not? December 6th. The 6th? Yes. Yeah. 6th. Yeah. Link in bio or in the show notes. I'm pointing down. I know. I'm like gesturing. The show notes down there. The show notes down here like I'm on a YouTube channel. Yeah. You can't see me, but I'm pointing down to the show notes. And I'll have all the links for your podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Perfect.
SPEAKER_01:Get some tips and tits. And you can't go wrong. And your socials, we'll have all of those there. Awesome. You guys can be new besties. Yay. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on and talking about some delicious shit. And I always love our chat.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I'm excited to be on here again and to have you back on mine. We'll just go back and forth every quarter. I
SPEAKER_01:love this for us. Thanks everyone for listening and we'll see you in the next episode.
UNKNOWN:Bye.
SPEAKER_00:Want to keep hanging out? We have created a free mindset mini course to help change makers and birth workers find bliss in their business. You're not in this alone. Let's build together. Head to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your space and a free retreat. Once again, go to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your spot. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave podcast. podcast.
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