Hot+Brave
Hosted by birth worker and activist Bianca Sprague from bebo mia Inc (https://bebomia.com/), Hot + Brave is like a hilarious conversation with your feisty friend who doesn’t give a f*ck. Brave stories, business support, hot topics and #truthbombs that will either balm your soul or light fire to your rage.
Hot+Brave
S4 E10 - Pregnancy after 9 losses with Rachell Dumas of A Light After Nine
Content Note: We discuss loss, so please make sure you take care of yourself and step away if needed.
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You are listening to the Hot and Brave podcast with Bianca Sprague from Bebo Mia, where you will hear brave stories, hot topics and truth bombs that will either light fire to your rage or be the balm you need for your soul.
SPEAKER_02:Hello everyone and welcome back to the Hot and Brave podcast. I'm your host Bianca Sprague and oh boy what a week. What just a full flippin shit show that was so darn heartbreaking. Like the tears I have shed. It's unbelievable. I don't even know what to say about all of it. It's really just too much to hold. I honestly thought we had made more progress but judging from the hate messages i received after posting our grief about the election um it shows me really how carefully i curate my life and who i share space with and what i ingest because i was just so surprised by all of it um i immediately people me a lost 500 followers as soon as we said it was a dark day um which great um bye bye guys just woof to all of it um and you You know, the rise of the right, it can only lead to really bad shit for most people. So I thought it would be a good time to talk to my gal, Rachelle Duma. And we talked about loss and infertility. And, you know, really what is needed in all this coming political climate for reproductive health and justice. A little bit about Rachelle. She is an RN, an entrepreneur, and she also founded a nonprofit called A Light After Nine. And her nonprofit is so beautiful. And it has a really wonderful goal of supporting families who are navigating pregnancy loss and fertility challenges. And that's some of the stuff we talk about in this episode. And I mean she's going to share about her own journey through nine losses and after that experience you know she really wanted to transform maternal health and she does that with compassionate care resources and community support I love everything she says about community it's such a good conversation and it's really to help others find the light and healing in their darkest moments so again her foundation is called a light after nine and we will have all of that information in the show notes of how you can get a hold of her She makes herself so wildly accessible, like pick up the phone, call her. I just love it. Anyway. We have lots happening over here at Bebo Mia, so keep checking our channels. We have so much happening on Instagram, really great freebies, and we have some fun stuff as we're counting down to Black Friday. So I just want to plug that before we end and move over to the conversation that I had with Rachel last week. So without further ado, here is that conversation. Hi, Rachelle. Thank you so much for joining us on the Hot and Brave podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you so much
SPEAKER_02:for
SPEAKER_01:having me. I'm so excited to be here.
SPEAKER_02:We're very excited because, I mean, your personal story is amazing. And then what was blossomed from your personal story, which I think I think these these deep impactful moments of grief and loss and rage and all the things that go along with them they're amazing fuel so I'm so honored that you're going to be one of our guests because I just think well you're just a great example of the thing I talk about all the time is like what we what can we do with with all of these feelings and experiences that we have so that we either are you know, expanding them out to the world and doing, doing some love and light and healing stuff with them, or they kind of just like collapse in and we drown under the weight of it. Right. And it's so easy to
SPEAKER_01:drown. So yeah. I'm so happy to be here and tell my story. Did you want me to go into that? I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_02:No, I just, yeah, I would love for folks to hear about, yeah, your own journey, especially your journey within reproductive health and then how that kicked you into being just such a fierce advocate in reproductive justice.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely. So my pregnancy journey started in 2018. It was an unplanned pregnancy with my soon-to-be husband and I miscarried at six weeks. Went to the OBGYN and he said, this is a part of your pregnancy journey, a normal pregnancy journey you're gonna go on and have you know your baby and everything will be fine that did not happen everything but that happened literally so I'm thinking um back to 2018 doing all my other pregnancies and just sometimes I even chuckle I mean it's a very dark joke but that he you know told me that everything would be fine because it wasn't so fast forward to 19 uh 2020 actually we're in a pandemic i'm a travel nurse um in new york i went to help out and got sick came home with covid and um i found out i was pregnant so i was pregnant not only with one baby but two i was happy I was like, okay, well, we're pregnant. The doctor said everything was fine. That was a one-off miscarriage thing. We really weren't ready. I wasn't anyways. So here we are. I had trouble that whole pregnancy. I was in pain. I was in and out of the obese office, a lot of bleeding. And I lost the first baby. I had what's called vanishing twin syndrome. And the first, the one baby absorbed the other one. So even then I was still fine, very positive. My symptoms went away. I was optimistic and optimistic enough to throw a gender reveal. At the gender reveal, I went to the bathroom and the second baby fell out.
SPEAKER_02:So,
SPEAKER_01:yeah. So how far along were you at that time? At that time, I made it 15 weeks. And I went to the hospital in shock, told the doctor what happened. And she said, are you sure you were pregnant? So that is like the indication of the rest of my pregnancy journey was. She didn't even believe I was pregnant. I don't even know why. So I showed her a picture of the baby that was in the toilet. And she said, oh, you were pregnant. And that is when I really, really thought my pregnancy journey is not going to be easy at all. So I went back to my OB. She said, OK, we've lost three babies at this point. I think you have what's called cervical insufficiency, which is meaning my cervix is weak. So the babies fall out, for lack of better words. So she said the treatment for it is called a cervical cerclage. It's literally the cervix is at the end of the uterus. It's what keeps everything in the baby, the placenta, everything. Mine is weak, so it opens. And when the baby is heavy enough and sits on it long enough, it will fall out. So a cerclage is a suture or a stitch placed around it to keep it tight. That has to be done at 13 weeks. So I tried again, early miscarriage, tried again, early miscarriage. my mother my grandmother um passed away during this time um so i had a lot of loss a lot of loss was and my grandmother was my mother and um that was just a lot she died knowing i was pregnant um and then in 2021 i was pregnant i started to see what's called a reproductive endocrinologist just to do further testing um just to see if There were other causes of the miscarriage that we were missing. Maybe the shape of my uterus, something was wrong with that. Or maybe I had some underlying inflammation, she said. Maybe a genetic component. She sent me to a reproductive geneticist, which is a very specialized field. And I only found one in Atlanta. Nothing was wrong with me other than my cervix was weak. So I had to live with that guilt of these children are not here anymore. because something is wrong with my body. But I kept trying. I went to therapy, and I was able to try again. So April 2021, found out I was pregnant again. And this time, I made it to 13 weeks. I was able to do the surgery. And after the surgery, the cerclage was placed. After the surgery, I asked the doctor if I could come in sooner because we were 13 weeks. And she said, come back at 20 weeks. That's seven weeks. I was terrified something would happen. But she reassured me that if something was happening, you will feel it. It will be pain. If something was going on with your cervix, it would be painful. You'll have bleeding, all these things. So I went to the 20-week appointment. And the ultrasound tech runs out the room. And she's like, the doctor will come back. So I knew something was wrong. The doctor came in. And she said, your cervix, your cerclage failed. And you can go upstairs and deliver the baby. No other options. No, let's try something else. No, let's go on bed rest. I said, when the baby, the baby wouldn't survive. And she said, no, the baby would.
SPEAKER_02:Like you're delivering this news. Did they deliver it in the way that you're telling us right now? That's literally how she came in.
SPEAKER_01:I'm so sorry. That's literally no bedside manners. That's literally how she said it. Come to find out she was the first year, like that was her first year and one of her first times putting in a cerclage and it failed. I think there was a pride issue that was going on. So I went home. I said, I'm not delivering this baby. I fought too long. We're 20 weeks. It's the longest I've been pregnant. I've had a lot of losses. We're at loss number five or six. i am maybe seven i can't remember six or seven i'm going home and i'm putting myself on bear rest because i'm on like pregnancy apps and other this has happened to other people that's like that they've made it to like 22 weeks so the baby will be in a nicu but they'll be fine go on bear rest so i go on bear rest and then i also read that there could be a higher cerclage a higher suture called a transabdominal suture I found a doctor in Dallas, Texas that performed this after a sacrage fell on a woman with twins that she was trying to save. It was successful. So I called him on his cell phone. He said, come to Dallas, fly there. I flew there that night. He rolled out the red carpet for me. I mean, he got me in the OR, treated me like I was the queen. The three-hour surgery took eight hours. I woke up surrounded by healthcare professionals cheering me on and saying, you're still pregnant.
SPEAKER_02:I know we're going to go on a journey. So I'm like, I'm so excited, but I'm like, oh, I'm waiting for the roller coaster to drop.
SPEAKER_01:I am fighting the anesthesia. I'm fighting the anesthesia. All I remember saying, am I pregnant? Am I pregnant? Am I pregnant? Everybody's like, yes, you're pregnant. I'm like, I'm calling all my friends once anesthesia wears off, kind of still on the anesthesia. I'm still freaking out, you know, a little drunk on anesthesia. But everybody's cheering, you know, all my coworkers at the time, everybody's so excited. Anesthesia wore off, and I went into labor. I contracted for 30 hours, and all the medicine that they gave me to stop it didn't work. They gave me... They just pumped me up with so much medicine and I was just begging for more just to stop it. And then 30 hours later of horrible contractions for 30 hours, my water burst. And that was it. I was forced to deliver that baby. And I went back to the OR to get both of the sacralages out. And I went to the labor and delivery unit and then they put in the epidural so I could... you know, pass the baby. And I said then I held him for like a few hours and then he took like maybe a breath or so and that was it. So moving on, that doctor said that I'm going to bring you back out to Dallas and I'm going to pay for your surgery to try this again. And we're going to do this surgery outside of pregnancy. outside of pregnancy, and you're going to have that baby. I've been told many times during my journey that I was going to have a baby. I did not believe it, but I still did everything, and I was still going through those motions like I was. I didn't believe it, but he sure enough paid for me to come hotel everything, for me to come out there. He paid for the surgery. I didn't pay for anything, and he did the surgery. I had smaller, I mean, earlier miscarriages throughout that time, five weeks, six weeks, seven weeks, but then in April of 2022, after going through talk therapy, hypnotherapy, four surgeries, numerous hormones, hormonal treatments, numerous specialists, just everything, I finally got pregnant again. This was my 10th baby after nine losses. In December 30th, 2022, I gave birth to my baby. there at 36 weeks, a little over 36 weeks. And he went to the NICU and he did well. I can
SPEAKER_02:stay happy, right? I can
SPEAKER_01:stay in this joy. He is fat and running around. We can stay happy, but that is my happiness.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, my goodness. Now, how did you find the treatment that was different between the care you were getting in New York, in Georgia versus in Texas?
SPEAKER_01:So when my cerclage failed, all of my friends, all coworkers, I called everybody. Do we know somebody who could put the abdominal cerclage in there while I'm pregnant? Couldn't find anybody in Georgia. Everybody was like, no, we're not touching this. We're not going to be responsible for the loss of the baby. Once a surgeon does something and it's kind of messed up, another surgeon doesn't want to come back and fix it if it's going to cause a big issue like that. Because the baby is probably going to die. But Dr. Fogwell, that's his name in Dallas, he took that risk. And he's a risk taker. And he is a very caring person. doctor and I'm indebted to him because of my son. But I did research and then I asked my village to help me find this doctor. And that's what we did. Found one in Florida and then we found him. And I'm so glad. And
SPEAKER_02:did you find even just like how you were treated, how they talked to you? Because I mean, your first losses, like the delivery and the care and, you know, It was abysmal. And so did you find that that even was better, like how you were taking care of mind and body?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. The hospital that I was seeking care in in Atlanta, I've reported in multiple times. During my last pregnancy, I talked to the chief nursing officer and she made sure my delivery was smooth and it was. I would not go back. Dallas, I wish I lived in Dallas while I was pregnant. I mean, the care that the nurse showed me during the 30 hours of labor, all the staff, they were in my room. They were going beyond the call of duty. You can't teach that type of compassion at all. It just has to be innate. And I can't tell you what's the difference between Atlanta and Dallas, that hospital and this hospital. But I know that those nurses were educated. They were vigilant. They were compassionate. Literally held my hand. And I just felt better there and got better treatment there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Just how we treat folks going through their fertility journeys, going through their loss journeys. I mean, we could talk about that for hours.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's so bad. Okay, I wanted to loop back to when you were struggling with this... like this internalized disappointment when you were, you're sharing about your cervix and, you know, having your cervix being called incompetent, which like, let's just put that to the side, the language that we use around our reproducing bodies. But what would you say to somebody who is, who's struggling and is in that loop of that kind of like that personal responsibility or that negative, like where we start segmenting and, and, and, feeling disappointed with our own bodies, like ourselves. What would you say to somebody in that journey now? I
SPEAKER_01:feel like the pregnancy journey starts and should start before conception. Yeah. You have to mentally prepare for whatever can be thrown at you. And I wasn't. In my mind, I was going to get pregnant and have a baby and the baby would have been fine. And that would have been it. and get pregnant again if I want another child. I would have never guessed this. But now, having done it, I would now encourage other people who are trying to get pregnant, and not even the person getting pregnant, the family, to brace yourselves. What if this goes wrong? This is what we're going to do. I would even say start counseling. um or get some type of mental health support to go into that because even if you have a great pregnancy smooth pregnancy it's still taxing on the body and the mind you know um and just it's a really great tip yeah yeah i would i definitely would um and even if you know you feel like you're the strong person and you can handle whatever pregnancy has a way of changing you and humbling you humbling you. And then, you know, parenthood, that's the same thing. So, you know, even if pregnancy didn't impact you that much, I'm sure parenthood, you know, it'll get you. It'll get you. It'll get you. I do encourage that. But through my own journey, I felt guilt. I felt depression, hopelessness at some point, but not long. I always had a little, it was literally a mustard seed, probably less, of hope. I never felt judged. My community was always like, you know, you got this, you got this. I felt like I was going to have my baby, but I wasn't sure if it would have been the way that I wanted to, which was this natural pregnancy. Because of that, know i needed counseling so i started talk therapy and i even did hypnotherapy and able that allowed me to continue my pregnancy journey when i got to a standstill and felt like i couldn't do it anymore um so i would definitely encourage you know getting those mental health resources to help you before the journey along the journey and then after
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I have some mental health questions about your after, but I just want to circle back again, because I loved your feedback around, you know, building these systems and having your, you know, maybe even starting therapy before you even begin your, your fertility journey. So, but knowing the stats on loss and infertility, which are staggering, especially in the U S like, why do you think so few people are prepared or that there, there still is this idea that spontaneous uncomplicated pregnancy and birth are so attainable, which side salad, everybody, they are under different circumstances that are not riddled with the impacts of the patriarchy. Our system is quite lovely, but we have had the impacts of trauma and the patriarchy and racism and sexism and all of these things. So why do you think that this message hasn't been actually rippled out to reproducing people? I
SPEAKER_01:think it's being talked about more and people are slowly becoming more aware of miscarriage, stillbirths, complications, the need for abortion with a failed pregnancy or issues within a pregnancy, especially because of, you know, all the politics surrounding things. But I think people do go into pregnancy or fertility journeys with a mindset of, you know, nothing's going to happen to me because one, it's scary to even think about. Two, In my experience, when you have different issues, if you focus on that issue and a negative, there's research showing that your body can internalize that and can produce negative outcomes. So I think from a spiritual and emotional point because of that. Three, people don't like to hear bad news. That's why a lot of people don't go to the doctor and they delay treatment and things like that. But for pregnancy, that portion of the fertility journey, if you're choosing natural pregnancy, it's supposed to be a natural thing, right?
SPEAKER_00:You're
SPEAKER_01:thinking that your body won't fail you, especially if you're a healthy person going into a pregnancy and fertility journey, you're not thinking that something like that will happen. So I think that's why people start the journey raw and feel like, you know, I have my baby.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, those are all excellent, excellent points. When you're thinking about your losses, what stood out as something that was, I mean, I don't know if you can name just one thing, but what was the most helpful for you during that journey?
SPEAKER_01:The most helpful? I would definitely say the village that I had. There were They were very supportive, but at the same time, internally, I felt like people, maybe not my friends or anything like that, but people who may not have known me or saw my journey up close, you know, that front seat version of my journey, felt like I was crazy for trying. When you're focused on something, you really want something, you go after it. I'm that type of person. I have a great ton of vision. I'm going to do it. If I tell you I'm going to do something, it's going to get done. I was the same way with my pregnancy journey. I was like, I want my baby. I'm going to have it. So I think just that community of non-judgment and support and whatever you need. Rachelle's not talking to us for a couple of weeks, but we know why. The understanding and compassion really helped. because it's a way of shaking your marriage and your relationships because people don't understand what you're going through.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I have a question about your partner as well. When you say the village, who do you count in that? Is that like your friends, family, neighbors, or do you also count like your practitioners and daycare providers? Like, I mean, obviously you weren't there yet, but, but for other folks, like who, who do you count in that, in that
SPEAKER_01:bucket? It depends. I do count certain providers that I had in my journey. There was a nurse practitioner that called me during this last pregnancy. I met her during the last pregnancy, and she called me almost every day. My grandmother physically, she's gone. I still feel her. But I didn't have somebody like a mom in the waiting room or in the delivery room or things like that. So I definitely needed that type of energy. I also count whoever is supporting me. This was a long journey filled with many doctors and people, and whoever was in that circle saying, you can do this, is who I count in the village and community. I
SPEAKER_02:love that. Any cheerleader you're in. It
SPEAKER_01:could have been walking down the street on a Thursday where I was crying. I count him in that. So it's just, never know. You never know.
SPEAKER_02:So you mentioned your now husband. Yeah, you guys are married now? Partner?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we got married that year that we had our first pregnancy. We are unfortunately going through a divorce. And that is one of the things that I would encourage people. That's one of the reasons why I would encourage couples to seek therapy or whatever counseling or whatever type of resource you can before you go through that journey, because it changes you. You can have your own marriage, but your idea of how to raise children, how long it's going to take to have children, if you can, all of that can change the dynamics of a marriage. Unfortunately, mine did not make it through. But we do have a beautiful baby out of it. And I wouldn't change that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Do you have advice for especially for male partners? You know, things that you would you would want to tell somebody before they're going through pregnancy? because you don't know how long you're trying to conceive journey is going to be. You don't know what's ahead of you as you, you know, as we're talking about what advice would you share or at least like some triage, like where you feel like maybe put the brakes on this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I would definitely say check in with your partner. If you're not the one carrying the baby, you have to admit that there is an imbalance in the relationship because of that. You have to own up to it and you, you, have to move forward with your relationship knowing that but try your best to make it balance because you just let your body go through during pregnancy and even well after it's just it's an imbalance you know you're never going to be the same at the pregnancy i just produced a whole human being and in my case i produced nine not full but you know i produced nine um but as the partner not carrying the baby you definitely want to check in You definitely wanna reach out to resources or support groups because sometimes you're going through this, what a lot of people are calling now this invisible mental health load that your partner doesn't see and you feel like you can't talk to your partner because that partner is carrying a baby. Reach out and get you some help if you feel like that is going on so you can show up as you need to show up as the partner. I will also say, You know, ask your partner what they need. What can I do? Because a lot of partners who are not carrying a baby feel powerless during that time, especially if something is wrong. God forbid something is wrong, you know. So I would say check in, take care of your own self so you can take care of your partner. You know, when we're on a plane, you put the oxygen mask on you first because you can do nothing if you're deprived of oxygen. It's the same. It's the same thing. So check in. you know show up as your best self as you can
SPEAKER_02:yeah those are really really great tips and I think you know you you touched on it but you know how people are going to show up in this journey they're really great indicators of what it's going to look like showing up in parenting um one of my very close friends um had a very long trying to conceive journey like six six years and I just kept being like, are you sure you want to go on this journey with this person? Because, you know, he would trade things like, fine, I'll go do this test, but you have to like stay at a friend's house for a week so I don't have to see you for a week. Or I'll go do this, but you have to. And I was like, yo, needless to say, they got divorced after they had their babies. But I was like, these are tests. These are like, this is... this is it. Like you guys are in something really intense. That's as close as you're going to get to parenting without it being parenting is, you know, struggles through losses and infertility. That's
SPEAKER_01:why I said, do have those conversations before, right? You know, people show up differently once they're in it, but at the same time, a lot of red flags can be identified before. And I wish I had identified them before. You and me both, Rachelle. It's just like, I mean, hindsight is 20-20. We know that. But we do need to have those conversations ahead of time because it's just like you don't want, we don't want to be single parents. Sometimes we do. Sometimes we do. But raising a kid is hard. Raising a kid is, you know, by yourself. And if you can raise it with a partner, you know, and you want to do that, because I'm not saying there are people who choose to be single parents and kudos to them. They're one of the strongest people in this world. But, you know, ideally, you want to pick a partner who, you know, through those storms and thereafter, even the ups, even the ups could be difficult for some partners to go through. Ironically, you want somebody who is not fair weather.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, I got to say, I think the hardest is still doing that single parenting partnered edition where you're like essentially the parent to an incompetent partner. I think solo parenting looks real good because you can just contract out, you build a really great village and you never have to do the negotiations for your time and resources. And nobody's being like, I actually don't think that's a very good parenting move. You're just, you get to decide. You're the boss.
SPEAKER_01:Right. I would. And now I'm in a really solid parent co-parenting phase. It took a while to get there, but we communicate pretty well. He has our baby at five days and then I'll have our baby five days. So it it's a I want to say, well, oil machine, but, you know, there's hiccups, but it's pretty good.
SPEAKER_02:Well, kudos to you guys. I think that's a gift. I think it's a gift for all three of you. Yeah. So that's amazing. Okay, so you talked about PMADS a little bit. So you know that a long TTC journey or repeated losses, once we have a live birth, that the risk of having postpartum anxiety, depression, or any other than PMADS is so high. Were you prepared for this as you were coming into that like, You know, the baby's here. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, when I had the baby, I really thought I was going to suffer from postpartum depression. I was preparing myself. I was like, this journey just was tiresome mentally, physically. I mean, all the ways. Like, I don't have nothing left to give the baby after this journey. And even... Up until literally I gave birth, I was telling the OR team, who was phenomenal, I was like, if y'all told me a baby is coming out of me, I would believe that before you said there was a baby coming. I am not prepared to be a mother at all. You know, I wasn't. I know I had been, well, a mom, because I think there are two different things in my case. I was a mother long before I gave birth because I did everything for all of those kids to try to save them. But the mom, the more emotional bonding, all that component of it, of parenthood, I wasn't ready for it because I didn't know if the baby would stay. And unfortunately, for a month later, I didn't know if the baby would stay. And that complicated my bonding. We love to think that, oh, once the baby comes, it's going to be magical. You look into the baby's eyes and now you're a mom or you're a parent or whatever. And it wasn't like that at all for me. And then the baby went to the NICU. So I didn't even have him in the room with me to bond. And for a month, He was my patient and I made sure my patient had everything. I went into nurse mode for a month before. I was like, he's not the baby. He's my baby. He's not going anywhere. It's safe. I didn't feel safe. So I definitely had postpartum anxiety. I didn't have depression, matter of fact. even as the nurse part of me during the first month. And once the mom kicked in during the rest of the months, I was out and about with my child. I was excited. I was just like, that pregnancy was the worst part. Motherhood is amazing. This is easy. You know, I was literally, everybody next time, it's easy. This is easy. And I have a baby. I do the labor and delivery again and again. And you know, motherhood is nothing. I have four or five more kids. It's easy. One of my best friends, he told me, you know, pregnancy really kick your behind. If you were saying you're the only person saying motherhood is easy. And I miss it.
SPEAKER_02:Six years of hell. And you're like, relatively, yo, what are you all complaining about?
SPEAKER_01:I feed him, I breastfeed him, just pop him on there, change his diaper, give him a bath, he sleeps. It's easy, I don't have to do anything. So now he runs around and I'm like, he's like a forest. I'm like, please don't hurt yourself. Now I'm over here, I'm excited again, but for different reasons. But yeah, it did interrupt the bonding though. And I think a lot of pregnant persons are afraid to talk about that.
SPEAKER_02:I love that you found parenting easy like it had to be like the second blow would have been too much right like if you had such a hard journey just getting one of your babies into your arms and if then you had anything on top of that that just would have been cruel I'm so happy
SPEAKER_01:yeah I think for that month too I was also waiting for that ball to drop too I was like it can't be this easy I'm kind of scared to say it's easy I'm just saying it's easy This is easy. Not to say other people are going through that dream. I'm so sorry if you are having a hard time. I know a lot of people have a hard time in the first few months. You're not sleeping and all that. I didn't even care about the sleep. I was like, all of this is easy. But my dream was so hard that anything was better than that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, I think you should just keep yelling that it was easy for you because I think we need to hear, we need to hear positive things, whether they're positive conception stories, positive pregnancy stories, positive birth stories, and positive parenting stories so that people do know that it is, it is possible and not just this myth that we're making up.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Just so that we can like look at some of the things so that it wasn't, I mean, maybe it was all consuming, but did you develop any kind of like hobbies or interests during that time that helped you cope as you were going through that trying to conceive time?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I traveled. I was never... You know, once, you know, my pregnancy journey started during COVID, so we couldn't travel a lot. So I was taking road trips in the beginning just to get away. And that's always been my safe haven was to travel. I still travel now. I just went to Bali over the summer. And it was... So I... I traveled. I got away, you know, concerts and travel. And it really relaxed my mind. In 2021, when I lost that 20 weeker and my grandmother died and I was at pregnancy loss number eight, nine, you know, whatever. I went to a Bruno Mars concert in Las Vegas where I called one of my best friends and I was like, drop everything. We need to go to Vegas. I'm sad. I'm depressed. If you say no, I'll be even more sad. I definitely manipulated her, but I paid for everything. I was like, please don't hate me. I'll never do this. You know that's not who I am. But she came and we went to sleep on Mars. And for those two hours, I was able to escape all of my sadness and have a good time, put everything to the side. And I cried like a baby at the end of the concert because I knew the depression was just waiting on the other side of the door. Definitely traveling. And even now, I would say if things are wrong or going bad, if I travel, I'm able to clear my mind and come back. and handle whatever. Oh, I
SPEAKER_02:love that. I didn't know if you'd have an answer. I was like, this might be kind of a weird question. I love that you had one.
SPEAKER_01:That's a great question. We have to find something, right? Something.
SPEAKER_02:And
SPEAKER_01:it's healthy. It's healthy because there's a lot of unhealthy things out there that we could be doing. Yeah,
SPEAKER_02:that's true. That's true. So tell us a little bit about A Light After Nine. Like what came outside of the fact you have a beautiful boy? What came from this? So
SPEAKER_01:2023 was a year of rest. I was like, don't ask me to do nothing outside of travel. That's what I did. Don't ask me to do nothing because I'm tired. So I rested 2023 and in 2024, I finally got the strength and I called it my renaissance year to get back to myself. I say that's what I'm going to do. I explored divorce, and that was a relief, a weight that was lifted that I never even realized how heavy it was. And then I said, this journey was horrible. I love my son. I don't want anybody else to go through this. And I'm going to start a company. And on my birthday, August 20th, I started a company called A Light After Nine because I had nine losses and my son is definitely a light. And I said, I wanna help families because pregnancy is a family journey. I wanna help family and dare I say villages because it goes well out the family. If you have that village, everybody doesn't. With resources, grants, because it's expensive. mental health resources, finding specialists, because I had that big issue finding a specialist that I needed at the time. But also, getting to the hospital at the bedside to start there. Because even though I'm a registered nurse, I wasn't in maternity health. I didn't know anything about maternal care. I'm like trauma nurse, ICU, you know, blood and guts nurse. I'm just not. I wasn't a baby nurse. I came in like anybody else. If I need to save myself, I could. But I didn't know about surfage and, you know, transabdominal and, you know, what type of ultrasound you do. I didn't know any of that. So I was new. But I realized quickly there was, because my pregnancy journey started in 2020, I was in the hospital alone a lot. And it was doing traumatic events every time, right? Because I was in the hospital and I was facing some type of loss. There were times healthcare professionals would come and talk to me about really important information, things I needed to do, times I needed advocacy. And I didn't have anybody. So I'm making this movement to incorporate palliative care into maternal health. And when we think of palliative care, a lot of times we think of inner life care, but it's not that. There's a whole nother side of palliative care for comfort. It's just comfort doing this treatment, whatever that looks like. Um, so we need somebody to advocate who is knowledgeable, um, who can make our journey comfortable. If you need us to hold your hand or ice and cabbage on your breast to clear up your, uh, milk after you lost a child and your milk came in, you know, um, ask all the questions, make sure you have follow-up visits. After you go to a doctor and you come back, like, I don't know what happened. I can explain it to you, you know? all these things um so i'm also making that movement to incorporate that at the bedside and well after and also have employers to add this benefit because a lot of issues with losses occur at home and we don't have anybody and we don't know what to do we don't know what so yeah
SPEAKER_02:Well, I love that. And I think the bedside, I mean, whether you're getting new members participating in the care team or, I mean, the education, there's just such a huge gap of education with the people who are delivering this kind of news, whether it's doctors, nurses or other primary care providers.
UNKNOWN:Right.
SPEAKER_02:you know, you, you shouldn't have to sit in a, in a room with pregnant people waiting for their triage when you have to go get care for your loss. Like, you know, just, I mean, the things that were said to you, your story is, is not uncommon. I mean, the duration and the frequency of your losses, you know, yes, less common, but it doesn't matter where somebody has one or nine, how they're treated is, is, is, I mean, it's so shit. It's like, I don't even have better words. And I, I just think that it needs, it needs to be better. And I don't, I don't know what this gap is in, in reproductive healthcare, where like, there's just feels like an extra loss of humanity.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, it does. I feel like our society also puts on those who can get pregnant and that we should get pregnant and before a certain time and in a certain way and a certain amount of children. And when you choose not to have a baby or you can have a baby or you're struggling to have a baby, you put a mental toll on yourself and they put a mental toll on us. But then when we do choose to have a baby or go along that fertility journey, the care that we receive can be so bad that it will a time that is supposed to be so beautiful and so vulnerable. We're literally fighting and dying to give birth and to bring a life.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I mean, you're so right. If you could implement, like, what do you think is the main change that needs to happen in healthcare to support women and birthing people who are, whether they're facing infertility or pregnancy loss? Like what, what would you, what would your dream change be?
SPEAKER_01:Well, we can't ignore all the political changes that occurred recently. So I'm terrified of what's to come next as it relates to maternity. So I would, I'm so focused on the maternal death rate is so high and I believe for unnecessary reasons, so high, so unnecessary that we need to create laws and keep laws in place to protect pregnant persons, you know, making sure they're getting optimal care, increasing healthcare access, decreasing those access deserts where a person in rural Georgia can't even get to a maternal fetal specialist because they're three hours away. You know, that's unnecessary. So they lost a baby because of that. You know, we need access. We need laws to protect us. And we need handholding throughout this process to make sure that we're okay in advocacy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I think my dream, I think about this question all the time. And I think one of my things is like something that makes evidence-based care front and center. Like the stepping away from practice-based care and reproductive health
SPEAKER_00:feels,
SPEAKER_02:that's where I've landed right now. Maybe next year I'll have a different answer, but yeah. I just like all these things that I watch outside of the systemic issues of racism, fatphobia, you know, sexism, all of these things. But I just I listen to doctors say and do things and nurses, but they're following the lead of the doctor. So I'm going to hold the doctors more responsible. But I'm just like watching and I'm like, nothing about what you say is backed by science. Like, where did you you just set a stat or you just set a quote fact to my client? that like, where did this come from? Like, why do you think you just made that up? Or you heard it from someone else who was also wrong? Like, how did we get these, these ghost statistics that just won't die? And the practices, like if I see another placenta pulled out of a client, like I'm going to lose my ever loving mind. Cause I'm like, we know that this is one of the main things that kills us after. And yet we, I can't get doctors to stop doing it.
SPEAKER_01:So there are governing bodies that we can get in touch with to advocate on. There are a lot of maternal advocacy organizations, and they do amazing work, like Mom Rising. I actually have a meeting with them, I think, next week. And March of Dimes. advocacy organizations who are fighting for those things, those evidence-based practices to be implemented and making sure that they're implementing, making it a compliance issue if it's not. So it wouldn't be doctors who are going off of what they just believe or not bias in the care, things like that. But also looking at the patient as a whole to know this works for a lot of patients, but not for this patient, this patient. But I think what you're trying to say is like there to be a standard. Yeah. Well, cause it's so, yeah, for sure that,
SPEAKER_02:I mean, we have the ACOG, we have the SOGC, like we have these, you know, in the UK, they like all, all of these countries, we all have these things that doctors are supposed to be adhering to. We have the UN, we have the sustainable goals with the world health organization. Like we, All of these things. And I'm like, and yet in practice, it is such a problem. Like I had a birth this week and my client is white and was a surrogate and the baby was racialized. Both parents are South Asian. And there was an issue with the baby's breathing. And the RT comes into the room, like clearly didn't read the chart because she wouldn't stop commenting about the color. And she kept looking at my client. who was white,
SPEAKER_03:who was
SPEAKER_02:just the gestational carrier for this baby and being like, why is this baby's color like this? And I was like, Because this isn't a white baby. And she kept looking over her shoulder at the parents who are holding each other so terrified. But I obviously was trying to take care of my client who had just had a baby. And so I'm being pulled in the room going both sides, which everybody, please, surrogates and intended parents, get two doulas, please. But I kept going over being like, you have to talk to the parents. And the RT was so confused and was like, oh... These are the parents, which is why I'm not passing this baby Zapgar. But I was like, yes. These two rich, lush people. Yes, this is the parent. But if you just opened the chart, you would have seen that. And there was only this birth. I now live in a smaller town. This was the only birth on the floor. So it's not like they've been running around. They had one baby born in that 48 hours we were there. One. And it was my clients. And so I could see, you know, in a bigger hospital, they've zigzagged from room to room, a bunch of crises. But I was like, I don't know where you were before this, but it wasn't with doing any patient care. And like these kinds of things. And I was like, so, you know, this isn't even a doctor. Like this now extends to like anybody on the care team, which I know there's great organizations doing this work, but it's so prolific. Like it's, it's nobody's doing the right thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. I will say there at the mean Dr. Fargo on Dallas, there are doctors out there that are doing great, you know, who, passionate, who are looking at the evidence-based practices and implementing them. Because when that circlage failed in Georgia, and she was like, just go deliver it, there are other doctors, like Dr. Fogwell, who said you shouldn't have gotten a transvaginal circlage. You should have gotten an abdominal one from the beginning, and you wouldn't have been at loss number nine. because we knew what my problem was after i lost the twins after that second pregnancy so there's doctors like that who are like no i've seen this over and over we're not doing a transvaginal uh cerclage it doesn't make sense because you have to take it out for them to give birth anyway why don't we put a permanent one in there and then if they want two three four babies we don't have to keep going back in there and put another sacrage you know there are doctors who are at that and even changing the standard that's not working for us anymore because some are antiquated so yeah there are doctors out there like that like dr frogwell um i didn't mean a lot tip to him yeah it's not a lot in my pregnancy journey that i can But, you know, they're out there, you know. One of
SPEAKER_02:the 20.
SPEAKER_01:Literally one of the 20, I see. But my colleagues and different people I've been meeting on the journey since I started this organization are change makers, are innovators. They're impressive. And I see them making a change and advocating. So that is making me hopeful. Oh, I love that. Because we can't do it. No one organization, I don't care how big you are, can do it by itself.
SPEAKER_02:No, I'm almost 20 years in and I'm getting tired and I'm like watching the needle go backwards and it's real hard to keep marching along doing reproductive justice work, especially in this climate. So, I mean, let's look at... Look forward to the next, not looking forward, let's look forward into the future for the next four or five years, especially in light of the recent election in the US. How do you see A Light After Nine fitting into this bloody mess?
SPEAKER_01:I would say the biggest maternal health issue as far as politics recently is abortion. And I think a lot of people who aren't going through the pregnancy journey, and even if they are, they don't understand that abortion is not only for someone who doesn't want their baby. And even if that was the case, that's their choice. But during pregnancy, which is what I advocate for, abortion is needed to save our lives. You have an ectopic pregnancy or different complications where you know, the baby's going to die and there's nothing we can do. That's one grief we already have to live with and cope with. But why not keep me alive as, you know, the pregnant person giving birth or trying to give birth? But I'm going to die too because I can't get an abortion because at this point the baby is, you know, killing me and I can't deliver like I need to. So I'm scared that that's going to be the case you know the maternal death rate has already risen when Roe versus Wade was overturned so I unfortunately anticipate that getting worse because of that but a light after nine can help in a way that we're giving resources and tools we're finding practitioners who are able to safely you know, perform certain procedures that you need done. You know, we're finding the tools and resources to get you to those places. And we're collaborating with other organizations who are like-minded to help people on the ground who really need those resources. So it's going to be a tough time and a lot of work, but we're ready for it because we don't have a choice.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I see the next few years being potentially the right amount of pressure for us to uprise in a really intentional way and gathering together. We're going to have to link all of our organizations up and get ready for this next wave of whatever is going to come. It's a fight. It's a crisis. Yeah, it's a crisis. Yeah, for sure. I would love for you to finish up by just telling us a little bit about the different approach that you have with the Light After Nine so that folks get the right idea about you. And so many of our listeners are reproductive health experts. And I know that finding movements to participate in is something that is always really front of mind for us as we're trying to change the landscape for pregnancy and birth.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the statistics surrounding maternal health are very poor. It's been an issue and it's getting worse and we anticipate it getting worse with the political changes that recently occurred. We need organizations such as A Light After Nine to do one-on-one mentorship, to handhold throughout the fertility journey, to provide resources that our patients don't know about. There are so many times patients leave doctors' offices and hospitals and still wonder what's next. That should not happen. We should have a plan of care. We should reiterate these things, what they need to do next. They need grants. They need money. They're drawing in bills on top of a horrible pregnancy journey or fertility journey. Now I have to worry about losing my house and my home. We shouldn't be facing homelessness to have a child. There are so many issues. The maternal death rate is too high. It's high. We need to combat that. And we've tried a lot of things that haven't worked. So we need to completely switch our minds to something more innovative. So we need to hand-hold. From the time they're in the hospital to home and then back in the hospital and to wherever they need to go to survive pregnancy and to thrive after. So that is what A Light After Nine comes in and that's what we do. We help our patients survive and to thrive this journey.
SPEAKER_02:We need to clone you. I know, I think that all the time. oh my
SPEAKER_03:goodness
SPEAKER_02:you're doing amazing work where can people find you
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're everywhere. You can always call. I have my number on my website and everywhere. But our website is alightafter9.org. Our Instagram is alightafter9. TikTok is actually my name, R-N-D-U-M-A-S-R-N, Rachelle Dumas, R-N. And we're also on threads, alightafter9 and Facebook and LinkedIn. You can find me by using my name, Rachelle Dumas. And I'll be happy. You can find me any type of way. I make it super accessible. You can find me and I'll be there.
SPEAKER_02:That's amazing. And we'll put all your links in the show notes so that people can connect with you and participate in this incredible movement that you are starting with all this fuel from your own lived experience.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm very passionate about it. I barely sleep. I hope I don't look too bad right now. I probably got puffs under my eye, but very passionate about it. And I'm working day and night to put a dent in these issues and this crisis that we're facing right now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for doing it. Thank you. We need more folks just like you and, um, you know, Babel Mia is we're here cheering you on and supporting you however we can. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and y'all reach out and check out everything that light after nine is doing. Um, they're in their, in their baby stages and have, um, big things to accomplish. So the more people we can get behind these movements, the bigger the impact will be. And we can be saving birthing people and their babies and making these shifts that are so needed in our healthcare systems. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Want to keep hanging out? We have created a free mindset mini course to help change makers and birth workers find bliss in their business. You're not in this alone. Let's build together. Head to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your space and a free retreat. Once again, go to www.babomia.com slash bib to grab your spot. We will see you next time on the Hot and Brave Podcast. podcast.
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